146: Lori Vallow’s Son Testifies, Chad Daybell Cries in Court & Body Shames Tammy Daybell | Week 3 Trial Recap 51:20

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Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly with me, Annie Elise. You know what you're here for today, right? We are going to go through everything that went down this week in the Chad Daybell trial. We are officially in week three now, and we've got a lot to talk about because this trial is wild and more information is coming out.

And it's kind of been like a little bit of a whirlwind, different motions, different this, different that. So we've got a lot to go through. And if you've been listening to the last two recaps we've done, we're doing a recap every single Friday where we're telling you everything that went down that week in the trial, because I know it's difficult to watch hours and hours and hours of TV and courtroom footage. So we're going to break down all of the high level takeaways and everything that you need to know in order to stay current with this case.

As I've mentioned in the last episodes, we do have a correspondent in the courtroom from our team. Lindsay is there. She has been there from day one, and she is literally making eye contact with Chad Daybell and giving us play-by-plays of everything going on. So what we've done in the last couple of episodes is I have my laundry list of questions that I am asking her because I'm

just so curious and I want to know everything, every single thing that's going on there. But I really think it's important for her to just jump on the mic and share with you directly, not only answering my questions, but just her perception, her take on what she's seeing day to day. She's talked with Larry and Kay Woodcock. She's talked with other news outlets.

so many different connections and people that she has talked with along the way. So I'm going to pass the mic over to her. I'm going to let Lindsay just give us the full rundown of everything that went down this week from motions, testimony, behavior,

all sorts of things, you know, Chad's stupid face and all the things that go with that as well. And let us kind of feel as though we're right there in the courtroom with her. So Lindsay, thank you as always so much for being there in the courtroom for sitting through this day after day so that you can give us the full breakdown of what's going on. Tell us what is happening in the courtroom this week. What has it been like? What has the energy been like?

What are the big takeaways and what have you noticed? Take it away. So thank you, Annie, for having me. Like Annie said, welcome back to week three of the Chad Daybell trial recap. We heard a lot of evidence this week, some that was quite frankly disgusting, ultra cringe, empathetic, and others that were very, very damning for Chad Daybell. So overall, pretty great week.

This week, to help me break everything down with you, I have Lauren Mathias from Hidden True Crime with me. If you haven't heard of Hidden True Crime, it is hosted by Dr. John Mathias, who is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with almost 30 years of experience in both clinical and forensic work, and his wife, former investigative journalist Lauren Mathias. And

And like I said, they have an amazing channel. If you haven't checked it out, it will be linked in the show notes. All of their links will be there. Lauren has appeared on many true crime documentaries along with her husband, John, and she's a frequent contributor on News Nation as well as many other news outlets.

They are great friends of the podcast. We've had her and her husband, John, on multiple times before. So I have her with me to help give you guys the scoop of everything, all the new information that's been revealed, what's been going down in the courthouse, Chad's reaction so far, and really what the trial consensus is so far. So thank you so, so much for joining. I am happy to be here. Okay, so let's just dive right in.

We started out this week knee deep in Chad's nasty text messages with Detective Doug Hart reading them. Oh, honey, that is so crushing. I feel so destroyed inside. You know my love for you is deep and real. I want change. I'm constantly begging for change. I want you. Nothing else matters. But I am hindering your life and you deserve better. I love you so intensely.

I personally was trying not to gag and really hold a straight face the whole time. So how are you holding up during this part? Yeah. And I'm also glad you call him nasty and not steamy because they were definitely nasty and definitely not steamy. I was holding up. Okay. I definitely kept my eye on Chad the whole time to see how he reacted. And honestly, I couldn't tell if he was

proud or ashamed of himself. I wish I could say that he was ashamed because he should be, but I almost feel like with the smug look on his face that he was almost proud of his nasty text between him and his mistress. So then in cross-examination, the judge's attorney, John Pryor, was obviously trying to walk a little bit of this back because overall, the detective had some very easy

Very damning testimony for Chad. How do you think he did during that?

Detective Hart definitely knows the case, and he did not give John Pryor the answers he was looking for. John Pryor is really good. I hate to even say that, but he is really good at pushing his narrative and even creating a narrative that isn't completely accurate. And he was definitely trying to do that with Doug Hart, and he was not taking the bait. Tens of thousands of text messages, right? Yes. Okay.

I didn't see in any of these, and if you have them in the other 10,000 that you went through, show me the one that says, hey, this is Chad. Let's kill the kids.

Objection, Your Honor. Argumentative and tries to put evidence not in fact. Facts not in evidence. Well, it's a question on cross. It's overruled. Show me the text. It says, let's kill the kids. Well, that is argumentative, Mr. Pryor. If you want to ask if there's a text, that would be different. Is there a text that says, let's kill the kids? There are several texts that talk in detail about the deaths of those two children, yes. Oh. So next...

We have to talk about the major witness, I think, this week.

That was a major witness. When he walked in, you could hear a pin drop too, when they said Colby Ryan on the stand. And I thought he was such a good witness too. He walked in with this confidence and you know, he did this last year for Lori's trial, but he answers yes and no. And you can just tell he's being straightforward and so honest and so absolute and confident in all of his answers. I don't know. How did you feel he did?

I agree with you completely. It was like you could hear a pin drop. I did not even want to move a muscle. I didn't even want to type because it was so silent in there. And yeah, I think Colby did a really good job of humanizing and bringing emotion back to Tylee and JJ. So much in this case, we have been focusing on Tammy a lot. However, just this is overall my opinion. We really haven't seen much of Tylee and JJ before.

Really other than opening statements as far as who they were on when they were alive. Yeah, I loved when, well, I shouldn't say I love it. It broke my heart when just a photograph of Tylee

came on the screen and they asked Colby who that was. And he could barely muster that it was his sister. He had to, he had to get himself together again before even saying that's my sister Tylee, because he choked up and to be able to humanize these victims and see the loss that he suffered was,

I think that that was a really important thing for the jury to see. We hear all the time that juries are moved by emotion. And I feel like Colby finally brought that to the court and you could see just the loss and devastation. So we've definitely heard from some family members, but if you're looking at all of the witnesses, we've definitely heard from more like law enforcement officials than family right now. And so it was a really important witness testimony, in my opinion. I was shocked.

You never know with John Pryor, how low is he going to go. But I feel like he knew that Kobe would snap.

Yeah. John Pryor was really pushing Colby about the Venmo payments that he was receiving from his mom, Lori, and from Tylee, who was getting money from the death of her biological father, Joe Ryan. And a lot of people have questioned Colby about these payments. And he was just so straightforward and to the point. Yeah. My mom gave me money. Yeah. I was a newlywed. Yeah. I was a new father. Yes. Tylee usually sent it from her Venmo account. Yes. I would reach out when I needed money. It was just like,

Okay. Well, there you go. It's how their family functions. Nothing really nefarious or suspicious about it. Just this is how it worked. I think, I think overall too, in my, I don't know if you noticed this, but it kind of seemed like John Pryor was trying to make Lori seem like maybe she was a bad mom. Like, you know, Tylee was the more motherly one to JJ. Wouldn't you say? And he was like, well, no, that was, that's his sister. Um,

And did you get that at all? I did get that at all. He was really trying to against write this narrative that Lori wasn't even a good mother. She was absent. She was distant and, and that it was really Tylee taking care of JJ full time. And he was like, no, my mom was his mother and she, she took care of JJ too. I will say I've been kind of hard on Rob Wood throughout this trial so far, but he did a really good job on redirect by saying, you know,

Colby, could your mom be influenced? And she said, 100% she could be influenced. And then I think he added by Chad Daybell and he said, yes, she could be influenced. That was the best moment of the day. And perhaps that week, that was a moment that the jury will not forget. Yes, my mother could be manipulated by Chad Daybell 100% because that statement alone would convict Chad Daybell.

Right, because so much of this, you know, that's the whole defense. Oh, it was Lori. Oh, it was this. Get to Smoothie King today and try the new blueberry, raspberry, or watermelon lemonade smoothies. They're all made with real fruit, real juice, and no bad stuff. Just check out the no-no list at SmoothieKing.com. Try the new lemonade smoothies at Smoothie King today.

So we talked last week in court when we were there about Melanie Gibb. We were wondering when we'd see her long distance husband who lives in another state. David, what did you think about him? I,

I was really looking forward to David Warwick's testimony. It was a wild ride last year at Lori's trial. So I was really looking forward to it again, because I feel like he has so many answers. He was there the night JJ was, was killed. I thought that the defense would be really hard on him. He actually did a pretty good job, which it's odd. Like I want them to be held accountable for being there the night that JJ was killed. And at the same time,

I want him to do a good job because I want justice and I want a conviction. So I think he did a good job. He held his own. He said that he never considered Chad a prophet or a God of sort. He says he never really believed what they were believing, like that invisible church or the invisible temple that they saw that they were staring at. He said that he never saw that or believed it.

But he did say that he had heard JJ was a zombie. Smacked down the picture of Jesus. But then he also said, you know, looking at the counters, I'm a builder. And I could tell if he had jumped on that, it would have broken some of the cabinet molding.

And it wasn't broken. So he really didn't buy that. And let me clarify. He didn't say JJ was a zombie. He said he wanted to inspect JJ to see if he was a zombie. He didn't say Chad was there on Sunday night. Correct. They couldn't get that, that he, that Chad was there Sunday night, but he said he was absolutely with him Saturday, Saturday after the firm expo conference, which I've attended one of those by the way. So I know what they were attending in Rexburg and that he left the conference early was with him, but he never did anything.

He never was able to confirm, yeah, that he saw him Sunday. Right. And then Pryor, of course, too, was trying to say that, oh, well, did you and Melanie just get married so you wouldn't have to testify against each other? Because, again, they do live in different states, which...

It was really weird. Right. And then John Pryor did get David Warwick to admit that Chad Daybell was humble, meek and mild and kind. I think were the words. Okay. When he said that, I just have to point this out. When he said that Chad Daybell is humble and meek, Chad Daybell nodded. Yes. Like, yes. And from that, I also want to say and manipulative because it was like, Chad Daybell was like exactly how I want to be perceived. That was such a moment. And don't you feel like,

I feel like one of these things with this trial that's so interesting is how Chad gives so much away. He's always nodding or shaking his head if he agrees or disagrees with something without him even knowing he's doing it. It can be ever so slight. Yeah, he does. But he nodded when David Warwick said he is humble and meek and kind. I think it was meek and kind or humble and kind. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Overall, I did feel like, you know, he kind of had selective memory again. And that's just my opinion. The second day, he definitely seemed very confused, but I don't believe he was involved in their crime. Obviously it just sucks that we don't have more clarification on what exactly happened. And it was also interesting. We didn't hear anything about this crazy dream. They never brought up the dream. I thought for sure, John Pryor would bring up the dream in the middle of the night. And I want to know why he,

He didn't. Yeah, that was weird. It was really weird. But just like how John Pryor tried to serve Melanie Gibb when she was here, he actually did serve David Warwick with a subpoena. Yeah. So then we heard a lot of testimony from the prosecution about, was this a paintball gun? Was this a rifle? They really went into that very extensively, almost to the point where

It might've been too much. What did you think about that? Absolutely. It's never ending. The first day that they brought up the, the gun or the shooting on October 9th, 2019, where Tammy was involved, uh,

in uh what looked like a gun pointed at her or a paintball gun was the second day of trial and here we are continuing to bring it up every day it almost feels like a rabbit hole they're going down to avoid everything else that's so important and yes this is important but not that important whether or not it's a paintball gun

Doesn't mean that Tammy was or wasn't murdered. She can still, she was murdered after they can still convict Chad of her murder and still believe that maybe it was a paintball gun. So it just seems like something they're pushing and spending so much time on for, for murder.

reasons that I don't know are necessary. Right. And then they did play Tammy's 911 call when she called the police. So we heard that police audio. Then we go straight to when Tammy died. The night she died, both

I believe they were interviewing the first responder that came out there and they played, well, it was actually Garth's call, 911 call. And then Chad takes the phone. We just found my mom. She's on the ground frozen or she's stiff and I don't know. Are you in Madison County or Fremont County? I'm Chad, the husband's.

She's clearly dead. Oh, sorry. Okay. Okay. Are you in Rexburg or -- does your address show the Rexburg address that you're in Fremont County? It's a mile past. Okay. Okay. Can I get your name? Chad Daybell.

Oh, man. Now, this is when Chad starts, I'm doing air quotes, sobbing, or acting air quotes again, distraught.

I personally, I don't believe it. After Chad was done with his major theatrics of crying, you could kind of see his nose and nostrils flare a little bit. He kept grabbing tissues, but nothing was coming out of his eyes. He was really straining. Absolutely nothing came out of his eyes. He wanted to cry so bad and he couldn't. And if he was crying, he was not crying for Tammy. What did you think about that? Was that real? Okay. Yeah.

I have a lot to say. So I was sitting close to him as close as I think anyone possibly could sit by him. Right. Um, I was looking at his profile. I was seeing his cry face. I saw the moment John Pryor patted him on the back and it was a clear cry face.

I cannot say that I saw a tear at all. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, but I couldn't see one at all. It did feel forced. It felt fake. And let's give him the benefit of the doubt for one second. Let's say he really, really was crying. Okay. Let's say there were tears that we just couldn't see. Why is he crying? This is his 911 call that he,

he made on October 19th, 2019, when he found his wife, Tammy dead. Is he crying because his wife is dead or is he crying remembering him having to make this call and remembering this morning? And is he crying about himself? Right. Because he's crying while listening to himself cry, which was, I mean, yes, that probably would be emotional, but,

But what also made me think, well, you know, this is weird. He didn't cry right before when we heard Tammy's voice on the 911 call. Exactly. He didn't cry when we watched the police dash video of Emma. When Emma, his daughter, was very, very upset that her dad was getting arrested. He didn't cry then. He hasn't shown any emotion. Not when pictures of JJ and Tylee were shown. Nothing. And then this is the moment he breaks down, allegedly, and

Exactly. So yeah, I saw him grab a tissue to hold it in his hand as he continued this cry face, whatever it is, never using the tissue, putting the tissue back down, stopping his cry face. Yeah. Um,

And that's it. And never even touching his face to wipe his tears after he grabbed that tissue during that time, looking at the photos. If he was really going to cry over missing his wife, wouldn't he be crying when he's hearing her voice when she makes that 911 call? I mean, it was chilling to me. Wow. That's Tammy's voice. Like that's her afraid or right. Seeing his daughter crying. I'm going to miss you. I love you. I love you. He doesn't cry. Then he cries, listening to himself crying.

make a nine on one call. It's just not, it's just not working for me. And then of course you're probably about to get to it. But what happened after was even more telling than that. Right. So after that, now the jury is going to see pictures of when the police came to the home, when Tammy was found dead and you know, they're going to take pictures of everything. So the jury was going to be showing the pictures. Now,

They gave the defense, the pictures, paper copies right before, you know, to see if they're going to object to any as John Pryor was flipping through them. So they're looking at this and Chad's looking at all the pictures after he just did this whole, you know, John Pryor gave him the tissue box. He's wiping his eyes. If there was a tear that's to be determined. What did you see during that?

Zero emotion. So Chad Daybell scrolling pictures on his computer, not realizing anyone else can see his computer or just not being careful enough, looking at photos of his dead wife,

Zero emotion, no affect, not even grumpy, not even angry, not even laughing, like nothing. Just scrolling them like he's looking at a PowerPoint. COVID-19 viruses like me change to fool your immune system and make you sick. But updated vaccines help protect you. Stay up to date on COVID-19 and flu vaccinations. Sponsored by Champions for Vaccine Education, Equity and Progress.

So then John Pryor is asking, you know, this detective the same questions in each. He asks, well, was Chad sobbing? Yes. Was Chad gasping for air? Yes. Was Chad more shook up than his kids were? Chad nodded.

Chad nodded. Wow. Wow. And during this too, he was in this, these were in my notes. I had that. I thought he was biting his lip or trying to like, you know, when you're trying to look like you're crying or just biting your lip, doing something. It just, I don't know. He couldn't produce a tear though. Yeah. I never could ever see a tear ever, but I just wish, I want to say this. I wish I,

The jury had been able to see him scrolling those pictures of his wife like all of us did. Yeah. Unfortunately, they didn't. But that was the most telltale sign of anything about how he really feels about his wife. Well, and we know, too, in some evidence that hasn't even come in yet. You know, we know that at the memorial, he's going to send Lori a text of everyone thinks I'm sad, but not for the reason that I really am.

Or something like that. Exactly. Exactly. So we'll get there. We haven't even gotten there yet. You're right. There's still so much good evidence. Yeah. Right. Why am I so worried? I mean, I guess we're worried because the defense is doing a hell of a job. But when you remind me of evidence like that, I'm like, oh, yeah, there is more stuff to come. There is more. And we'll get to more of why...

there is a general concern in a little bit here, but first we have to talk about the coroner, Brenda Dye. I know you had some strong opinions. You said you felt like John Pryor was trying to try her for murder. Yeah. I felt like the defense was so strong with her. It was almost like he wanted to convict her of murder. Like he was being so hard on her. It was like, she wanted to make her guilty of something, put her behind bars. She, she,

You know, and I know that we're all, we're all frustrated with her. Let's be honest, because she went, she's a small town coroner with not a lot of experience. She went to the house to an unattended death. I, you know,

It's really disappointing that they didn't request an autopsy. She admitted it herself. She said that she didn't have much of a budget, you know? So I'm also going to say, look, as mad as I am about at Brenda die, I'm also mad at the system that created a budget for no autopsies, if that's true. But, but when prior came around, yeah, it was like he was trying to convict her of something. And Chad was just,

a bystander sitting at the defense table. Yeah. And it was horrible for the prosecution during that moment. And we'll get back to a little bit more of why people are saying that here shortly. So next...

We had some coworkers that knew Tammy. They worked at the school with her or they met her. And one was actually her clogging class instructor. The other ones attended fitness classes with her two times a week, high intensity fitness. They all testified that, yeah, Tammy worked hard. These classes, they lasted an hour. It was burpees, lunges, planks.

And Tammy was always going. She never fell back. You know, she was keeping up with the class. And these are very, very high intense workouts. So what does John Pryor do on cross-examination? He asks, well, I don't want to disparage her, but you only saw her at one class, right? Now, I don't want to disparage anybody, but would you describe Tammy's figure as being a body of someone who was extremely fit?

I would say she was a very fit woman. You'd say she was a very fit woman? I would. More of those. I just attended the one class for my first time. Okay. So how would you evaluate if you were to make a determination? Would you say that Tammy Daybell was very fit? Yes. So she had a low body fat. She had a petite figure. Is that what you're telling me?

You don't have to have a low body fat or a petite figure to be highly fit. But what I observed is that she had the stamina from the time she started to the fall that she passed. She had the stamina to be able to complete those rigorous exercises.

Okay. Oh my gosh. I was livid. I've never been so angry and I've been angry a lot during this trial, but this moment of, of body shaming, a murdered woman, not only a murder woman, this is a man who Chad Daybell is a man who cheated on his wife and that's coming clean in trial, right? Like everybody knows that in trial, they're not hiding that. Yes. Chad Daybell is a cheater. He cheated on his,

his wife, Tammy, with this sexy, beautiful woman that he just could not, you know, that he just could not resist. And now his wife has been murdered and he's allegedly crying over it.

But now he's going to body shame her because he couldn't resist his mistress. And let me tell you, Chad Daybell is involved in his defense. This was not John Pryor's tactic. This is absolutely Chad Daybell's. And if you want to know what kind of husband Chad Daybell was, here you go. And a message to the women, we cannot win. We cannot win. Tammy was fit, first off. You know, I saw the photos of Tammy.

Last year at at at Lori Vallow Daybell's trial, they showed the gallery the photos I saw photos of Tammy that I'm sure she wishes nobody ever saw intimate photos of her on her marital bed deceased because she had just been murdered and she is fit. Let me tell you that and she is beautiful.

But whether or not that's the case, to do this at her murder trial with her husband who cheated on her. And Tammy Daybell, I want to say this too, Tammy Daybell was the woman who did what men wanted. Be chaste. Be religious. Believe what I say. Follow me. Don't spend money on clothes. Guarantee you Tammy Daybell's never been able to get Botox or dye her hair again.

I heard she had shoes with holes in them. Chad was lazy. She couldn't afford what Lori Vallow could afford. She worked. And she worked full time. And she birthed five children. And then she took on that religious responsibility. And she was a godly woman. And she did. And she was, you know, she was just, she was modest. And she dressed modestly.

Do this, they told her. And Chad picked the exact opposite in his mistress, yet blames his mistress now for being too sexy and too irresistible that he couldn't resist what she wanted. He's telling you who he is. He's a misogynist and women can't win. And to do that and to allow that to happen to his dead wife of 30 years who birthed him five children,

I guarantee you that was not lost on the jury. It certainly wasn't lost on me or anyone else that was in that courtroom. Right. I totally agree. And, you know, Pryor said, how do you evaluate if she's fit? Oh, she had a low body fat and a petite figure. Is that what you're telling me? All while, you know, he's not a spring chicken either. I mean, certainly, um,

It was just, it was foul. It was foul to see happen. It should not have happened. Have you talked to Vicky? Vicky is Tammy's aunt. She has been here during the trial almost every single day to support Tammy. Have you talked to her?

Yeah, she was disgusted. She was disgusted that day by the fact that Chad did that. And here is Chad trying to also say and show the jury that he's this loving husband who misses his wife. And yeah, he made this mistake of an affair. No loving husband would allow his murdered wife that he loved to

Right.

Another part I was going to bring up to see if you thought this too, you know, they had another detective on later that talked about the life insurance policies for Tammy, that there had been two on Tammy totaling $430,000 and that everyone before said that she had, she was in great health, nothing wrong with her, but yes, she has these life insurance policies and,

Another thing John Pryor kept saying during one of his cross examinations was lipidity instead of lividity, which he's been pronouncing things wrong. He's been calling people the wrong name.

The amount of times he said lipidity and the fact that nobody corrected him, it was out of control. It was over 20 at least. It was ridiculous. By the time he finished saying it, we already had an emoji in our live stream chat that said lipidity. Yeah, it was bad. It was bad. Next, we had Detective Mattingly. He talked about some of the Fitbit data with Tammy. So I was going to ask if you noticed this.

basically they don't know where the Fitbit is anymore. They know Tammy had one because it was on her nightstand and the photos that were taken at the scene when the police came after she was murdered. They don't know where it is now, like I said, but based on that, you know, they were trying to go back. Can we see sleep patterns? Can we see step counts? What can we see? Unfortunately,

The Fitbit model that Tammy had, it was only able to show her current heart rate and it didn't actually record a lot of data. And for sleep patterns,

It looks like she took it off at night. So unfortunately, we don't have the information that would show if, you know, when the moment she killed, because that's what they were looking for. COVID-19 viruses like me change to fool your immune system and make you sick. But updated vaccines help protect you. Stay up to date on COVID-19 and flu vaccinations. Sponsored by Champions for Vaccine Education, Equity and Progress.

But then they also talked about the step count totals for the month. Now on cross-examination, John Pryor said, Oh, did you know that Tammy was very competitive and that she was in a family competition for who could do the most in most steps or be the most active. And it was like John Pryor said, well, we don't know who was wearing the Fitbit, right? You know, we know Tammy was very competitive and said that Joe Murray's parents, so her

I guess it would be her son-in-law's parents. What I think the mom said, yeah, you know, I go to bed and my, I look like I'm the winner, but then I wake up and it looks like Tammy is. And he was, I was trying to, he was trying to insinuate that maybe she cheated on her Fitbit and,

Just so she could win because she was so competitive. Did you, I mean, man, we are calling her. Was she even fit? Was her low body fat? Now she might've cheated in a family competition on her Fitbit.

It was really confusing. Again, I think this goes back to like rabbit holes that John Pryor spends a lot of time on for no reason at all. And yes, he was definitely implying that maybe Tammy Daybell was cheating and it wasn't showing the right numbers. And why is this important for the trial? It's not. But if it was, I guess we're saying that because

Tammy maybe cheated. Maybe she didn't walk as much as we thought. Maybe she wasn't as fit. That's maybe she could have had heart failure. Like it's a big stretch, but you know, we're going to spend a long time on the Fitbit and suggest that maybe Tammy was cheating on a family competition to prove that she died of natural causes. One of the biggest problems,

that we got from the coroner this time around, which we did not get in Lori Vallow's trial, was that Tammy had food in her stomach when they did the autopsy. So after they exhumed her body in December, they found food content, her stomach, they found food in her stomach, which means that Chad's claims that she was throwing up all night, she was so sick, how's she throwing up if she has food in her stomach? Now, some people have said that, well, you can still have stomach or stomach

Some people have said you can still have food in your stomach and maybe just throw up liquids. Personally, I'm not buying it. I mean, this is like, well, coincidence, coincidence, coincidence, coincidence. Yet here's another one. I don't think we can not take that seriously.

That was a really big, important moment. Actually, that was an aha moment that I don't think the jury will forget. I certainly did it. And it just shows that Chad's a liar. If Chad is saying that his wife was throwing up and, and Chad, it made it sound like it was a pretty intense. It was, she was really, really sick. She was having a coughing fit and she threw up.

If Chad is lying about that, what else is he lying about? She had a full stomach. And then did you also notice that they also said that all of her organs were healthy? So she had chalked it up to heart failure, yet the only organ that wasn't okay were the lungs because that's where the pink foam was. So this pretty much gets us up till Thursday, which is today when we're recording this, of how today was in court. Now, Chad...

Chad was not done with his body shaming because he brought up that Tammy was doing a couch to 5k, you know, kind of those training apps and that she was doing this with Mark and Chad and herself and

John Pryor says, so you could say there were three couch potatoes in the Daybell house. Again, calling Tammy a couch potato now that she's not here. So that would imply on March 31st of 2019, we had three couch potatoes at the Daybell house. Objection, Your Honor. Calls for speculation and misstates the email. How do you interpret that?

One of the things they talked about a lot today was the shooting. Again, the shooting that happened on October 9th, where it's suspected that Alex Cox was trying to shoot Tammy Daybell in her driveway and she thought it was a paintball gun. Well, during this, did you think it was so crazy whenever John Pryor brought up the raccoon?

It was wild when John Pryor brought up the raccoon and it was out of the blue and it was, it was for a clear reason and a good reason. They always say, if you want to, if you, if you want to, to, if you want someone to believe something,

Create the narrative before it even gets there. John Pryor, out of the blue, brings up raccoons and that they have a raccoon problem or a rodent problem or a creature problem. It was a crazy year of wildlife for them in 2019. Yeah.

It was out of the blue. And the reason he did this is because one of the most damning pieces of evidence when it comes to the murder of Tylee is the raccoon text that Chad Daybell sends Tammy about shooting a raccoon in the middle of the day. And it's the day that investigators believe he was burning and burying 16-year-old Tylee's body in his yard.

And that it was a cover up for that, that this raccoon text was a cover for him burning limbs, literal limbs in his yard. So the question is, now that he set this narrative of this wild year of wildlife for the Daybell family and already bringing up the raccoon, I do wonder, is this going to work? Are they going to say, well, yeah, they had a raccoon issue or not?

Are they... You know? He's definitely trying to lessen this text. He was planting the seeds so that when they hear it, it is so damning. So...

By kind of coming out with it now, you know, it's, oh, we have nothing to hide. You know, we've had other raccoon because there were two instances. One was in June of 2019 and one was in March of 2019 where they do talk about, yep, we had to kill a raccoon and we buried it on the property in the compost area. And to me, I want to say that just tells me

Why Chad used a raccoon for his excuse that day. Right. Like they, as I always say, Chad has no creative bone in his body. He's like, well, what's something that's happened recently? Well, I'll just use another raccoon story. It shows me that that's where he got the story from. So I don't know if the jury's going to buy that. I don't, I, he did his best. You got to give him that. What, what can you do with that? Really? That's, that's really bad.

Next, we want to talk about one part in the cross-examination where Detective Kai Kumanu... John Pryor was asking him questions, and it seemed like he was saying yes. From our investigations, we learned that Tammy, as well as all five of the children...

knew about light and dark stuff? By looking over the chats, there are several that lead me to believe Tammy, along with Mark, Emma, Garth, Seth, and Leah have knowledge of the belief in light and dark people that Chad talked about and believed. Okay. So what I gather from that is your assessment in the reports that after you reviewed all of the emails and you said you reviewed them all. Yes. That's a significant job. Yes. And in reviewing all of those,

you came to the conclusion that the Daybell, Tammy Daybell, Chad Daybell, and his five children had knowledge of the belief in light and dark people. Yes. And the light and dark is a religious reference that's mentioned by Chad, right? Yes. It's mentioned by other people in this case, right? Yes. It's also mentioned to some extent in predominantly most religions. Would you agree with that? Say that again? Predominantly in most religions, there's a reference to light and dark, right?

I can't testify that. Okay. All the religions. Okay. And then the religious practice that these folks practice, the Tammy and the children in chat practices of what faith? LDS. Okay. Okay. Then we go on and if you would, I'll take a look at the next one where it says during the chats, Mark's camera was not working and Tammy informed him that his camera was cursed and dad was removing it, right? Yes. Okay. In more chats, Mark asked if anything was found or notable in him when he was body coded.

I'm not sure what body coded means. Do you have any knowledge of what being a body or body coded talks about? No. Okay. But it was Mark who was talking about the body coding. Would that be your assessment? Yes. Okay. And then Tammy responds, you has a lot of weapons, negative cords and curses, plus trapped emotions. We cleared out quite a bit. We'll do that more regularly for you.

So the second to the last sentence says, we cleared it out, right? Yes. Would you believe that that was Tammy and Chad who were clearing out these negative cords and curses? In this email, yes. Okay. And then we'll do that more regularly for you. And again, it's we'll do that more regularly for you. That implies that it was both Tammy and Chad talking about helping them clear out these weapons, right? Yes. Okay. Then we go down to the next one, and it starts with on another chat, on another chat,

Chad said, "Mom and I taught 12-year-old Sunday school yesterday. Canyon Scott's actions confirmed he is 4.2 dark." You see that? Yes. Do you have any knowledge as to whether Canyon Scott is dead or has been murdered or any investigation into that kind of a matter? I have no knowledge of that. Okay. And do you know who Canyon Scott is? I do not. Okay.

But obviously, it's someone who attends Sunday school where Chad and Tammy went to their Sunday school, right? Yes. So we could presume that it was someone in Fremont or Madison County, right? Yes. Okay. And then it goes on, I will enjoy watching his growth to world terror and domination. And then Emma replies, I like Canyon, though. I'll slow down. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. The next line is, I will enjoy watching his growth to world terror and domination, right? Yes.

Yes. Emma replies, I like Canyon though. Tammy and Chad reply, unfortunately, he's already influencing Will Dowling. Who's Will Dowling? Do you know? I do not. Okay.

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So a lot of people are kind of taking this as like, wow, Tammy was in on the light and dark stuff. You know, she was rating 12 year old. Yeah, she was rating a 12 year old at 4.1 dark, just very damning information. And I think really to us and anyone in the courtroom, no one was really that surprised because.

Hello? She's married to him. She's married to Chad. She knows his beliefs. Clearly, she moved up to Rexburg thinking... She knows about the earthquake. He didn't do all of this in secret. He was open to literally whoever would listen to him about it. People would barely give him the time of day. So his kids and Tammy all know about this, but I don't think she knows...

I don't think it's more than that. What do you think? Yeah, that's exactly where I go. And, you know, it was explained to me in some of the interviews I've done on this case is that this is a belief system where there are tiers. It was actually Chad Daybell's once friend, Eric Smith, that explained to me the three tier belief system, that tier one is the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A tier two is where Chad and others in the area believed and, and,

And a lot of people in the area believed in the light and, and darkness, not necessarily Chad Daybell's exact decimal point system. Although I interviewed a woman today that was still believing it. Julie Rowe, a woman who, whose books Chad Daybell published still teaches this light and dark decimal point system. So it's,

It was prominent in the area. And then there's the tier three belief system, which Eric Smith explained as Chad Dable's belief system, where they refer to zombies and killing zombies and having to remove spirits from people. And these really deep, deep doctrines about being married to people in past lives where, you know, then, you know, then these alleged affairs start happening.

happening or I guess we can say affairs now since Chad's pretty much admitting it in court, I can get rid of alleged. That's the tier three. So

So Tammy, you have to realize, was running their publishing company. She was editing the books that Chad Daybell and other authors were publishing with their near-death experiences and these kind of extreme tier two belief system. So we've also seen that Chad Daybell's kids stand by him. So I think it's kind of known that there was probably some basis for these beliefs. Chad Daybell said he had a vision to move his family to Rexburg. And although he said Tammy was grumpy and frustrated about it, she went.

We also know that she believed in Julie Rowe, this woman, again, whose books Chad Daybell published. And Julie Rowe's books actually made the family a lot of money. Emma Daybell voiced the books and believed in her. And I've talked to an author, Suzanne Freeman, who did not believe in Julie Rowe and told Tammy to vote for Julie Rowe. And Tammy's response is kind of like, what? Oh, why? Meaning what?

She was buying Julie Rose beliefs, which were very similar to Chad Daybell. So again, I don't think it's that surprising that Tammy believed along with many other people in the area that

in light and darkness. But I do want to point out that John Pryor won over a lot of people with his narrative, which is what John Pryor always tries to do, set a narrative that isn't true. There is no proof in the testimony that it was Tammy raiding people. Chad Daybell wrote the text where he said, Tammy and I are teaching Sunday school.

And this boy who's 12, I can't believe it is dark, but he doesn't say Tammy said he was dark. And there were a lot of those little moments that when you read the fine print or you listen to it, that you just played nowhere. Does it say? And Tammy said, this person is dark. Yes. We learned that she's,

Thinking that a phone. Can I keep going? Do you want to bring up? Yes. There are texts of her thinking that a camera is cursed. And that's way weird. So is this entire belief system on light and dark. So is this whole case. And I'm not denying that that is weird. And that it's very sad that Tammy believed in that type of thing. Of a camera being cursed. They also read a book called The Emotion Code. And she does a lot of. There's a lot of.

lingo about energy work and that comes out but we never hear that Tammy Daybell is is rating people that's Chad Daybell that rates people Tammy I think is just again a well-behaved wife who is believing and trusting her husband

So that's everything major that's gone down this week. Thank you so much for helping explain that. I know our audience really appreciates that. Before you go, though, I do want to say, what do you think about the prosecution so far? Overall, I have heard online some of them are being called the Xanax twins. Robin. Rob Wood and Rocky Wixom. Obviously, Lindsay has hair, so she's not the...

Not a twin to either of them because they both are bald. Lindsay Blake across the board, as far as I can see, everyone's saying she's doing such a great job. What are your thoughts on that? Look, overall, I'm cheering the prosecution on. I've had moments of just saying they did a great job and other moments of wanting to bang my head against the wall.

and other moments of wanting to bang my head against the wall, wondering where their passion is. I feel like they, they got away easy with Lori's trial because the defense kind of laid low. Then they, they got Lori off the death penalty before the trial even started and kind of were able to take it easy. And this is not the case with John Pryor. He is putting on a defense and it feels like,

They don't know how to handle that. We've had moments where Judge Boyce has made objections for them because they're not making objections when John Pryor's being argumentative. And he is getting in a lot of narratives that aren't true, including this one about Tammy Daybell raiding people. I think that's a narrative that started, which if you look, it's just not true.

And so I hope that they pick up the case, but then, you know, whenever they bring the evidence, their evidence is really good. It's almost like sometimes I've thought, well, they're, they're cocky because they have such good evidence and they're not realizing though, that,

The defense is doing really well. But then when they bring the evidence, I'm like, oh, yeah, that is really good evidence. They do have some great evidence. But I do wish that maybe they would share. I do hope that they do get a little bit more passionate, a little bit more powerful. I feel like if they had put John Pryor in his place earlier on in the trial, maybe John Pryor would be a little bit more well behaved right now.

too, knowing that he couldn't get away with certain stuff. But, um, Lindsay Blake is doing an amazing job. Uh, Rob Wood has been on this case for nearly five years. I have the utmost faith in the prosecution. Let's hope that they can just find a little bit more because I feel like that's what we're missing right now. And there's certainly, uh,

making me nervous. This trial is making me a lot more nervous, I've realized, than Lori's trial. Okay, I feel like that was a lot, but it was super, super insightful. I really appreciate you sharing everything with us. Thank you. It is just incredible that you're there witnessing all of this go down, and hopefully we are just inching towards justice. We had it with Lori Vallow. Hopefully we get it, and

We get the accountability there with Chad Daybell, but I appreciate you sitting in the courtroom day after day and giving us these recaps. And I know I'm not alone. I know all of the listeners appreciate it as well. Speaking of, if you are listening to this right now and you have any specific questions that you want Lindsay to ask anybody who's there at the courtroom as well, or any questions you have about the trial, let me know over on the Spotify Q&A section and we can definitely get those addressed in next week's episode.

Other than that, thank you so much, Lindsay. And thank you guys for listening. We will be back with you next Friday with week four trial recap. And we will see where this takes us and where we go from here. All right, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in to another special edition of Serialistly. And until the next one, don't be a Chad Daybell. Be a nice person. And don't kill anybody. Allegedly. All right, guys. Thank you.

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