144: Jacquelyn & Wren: Sexualizing Her 4-Year-Old on TikTok? Ft. Special Guest Dr. Leslie Dobson 57:40

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Hey everybody, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly with me, Annie Elise. I have a very, very important episode to talk with you guys about today, and I have a very special guest joining me as well. Now it's no secret that over the past few years, we have seen an exponential growth in the amount of parents putting their kids all over social media. And then in return, they're making money off of all of these postings, all of these videos, all of this vlogging.

Now, initially it started as just families on YouTube and they were vlogging their daily lives and doing things a little bit more casual,

A little bit more innocent, you could say. But then over time, it's now kind of shifted to where kids are being shown on nearly every single app all for monetization. Whether it be YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, I mean, the list goes on and on. So what started out as looking relatively innocent, and sometimes it still does look to be that way to the average viewer, but a lot of the times it's now quickly shifted into something much darker.

Parents are making a sickening amount of money, I might add as well, by showing their kids, showing their daily lives, their most personal moments, their most private moments. And in addition to that, they're getting ad deals, they're getting brand deals. And I'm talking vulnerable moments, guys, where they're showing their kids having full-on meltdowns, families having very tough, very personal conversations. They're even showing their young daughters starting their periods or going bra shopping for the first time.

I mean, definitely content that does not need to be out there for public consumption. On top of that, there is an alarming amount of pedophiles that are now being drawn in to this type of content. And there are children who are just continually being exploited on a daily basis.

And when I say that, guys, there's probably one situation that comes to mind if you're on TikTok, and it is the Jacqueline and Wren case. And I say case, but I should say situation. And we're going to be talking about that as well today in detail. Now, if you're unfamiliar with these two people, that's okay. I'm going to give you the breakdown. I'm going to give you a quick little backstory. So Jacqueline is a mom of a daughter named Wren, who is now four years old.

Jacqueline began first posting videos of Ren on TikTok when she was just a few months old. It was back in 2019, maybe even 2020. And before Ren was even two years old, their TikTok account had reached 1 million followers. Now they have over 17 million. Now at first, it seemed like it was super innocent. It was cute videos of a baby. Then they would have videos of, you know, mom versus grandma outfits that they would dress Ren in, things like that.

But over the past four years, this content has taken a very drastic turn. These days, Jacqueline is often posting videos of Wren where Wren is opening her mouth. She's eating and drinking. She's putting things in her mouth that are shaped like a penis, different food objects like street corn, hot dogs, etc.

things like that. She's also being put in positions that certainly could be seen as sexual, in my opinion, and even going as far as Ren sometimes saying things that could be considered subtly sexual or even outright sexual. And all of this content that is being put out is orchestrated by her mom, Jacqueline.

Now, the comments in these videos, when her comments are left on, are full of people either making sexual and creepy comments or people saying, get your daughter the heck offline. This is inappropriate. And it almost feels as though the public is more concerned with the safety of Ren than her own mother.

Now, the amount of people who are saving these videos of Ren as well, it is truly insane. It is thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, it is truly crazy. And guys, in my opinion, Ren...

Wren might be the most sexually exploited child online that there is right now. So our guest today is Dr. Leslie Dobson. Now, Dr. Leslie is a clinical and forensic psychologist with over 20 years of experience. She's worked in jails, she's worked in hospitals, and she has worked with some of the worst violent predators, violent offenders. She has worked with serial killers, serial rapists, cannibals, necrophiliacs, I mean, you name it.

Now, not only is she a psychologist, but she's also a speaker and an author. She even has a TED Talk coming up that she was sharing with me. She is like the expert in all things, especially when it comes to pedophiles and children content online.

So when I decided I wanted to do this episode and talk about the Wren and Jacqueline situation, talk about all of this, so I wanted to bring in Dr. Leslie to share her insights. She has worked so closely with numerous pedophiles, numerous rapists, so she could really shed some light on what are these problems

these predators doing with this material? How dangerous is it? Okay, so thank you so much for joining us on today's show, Dr. Leslie. I need to jump right into this because I have a burning question for you. Working with all of these pedophiles, can you walk us through what was that like day to day or what are some of the more common

crazy things you saw and you witnessed to where it really will illustrate to people how dangerous these people are and that by putting this material on a silver platter in their hands, what that could end up being and resulting in. I think a great example is Coalinga State Hospital. It is a hospital where sexually violent predators who are deemed, they've done their prison sentence or not, but either way, they're deemed too dangerous to return to society and they're given civil commitments in this hospital for the rest of their lives.

And so you've got every kind of sexual predator you can imagine. Necrophilia, we've got cannibalism, we have people who are really into pee and poo. There's a lot of just, I can go on and on. When I would walk in there, because they were patients with mental health issues, even though they were locked up, they had freedom. They could walk around. And I would walk in there and they would see me coming and they would line the hallways up.

and they would clap. What? Just to fuck with me. Really? And I would walk and I just, they were eyes on, staring at every inch of my body, making comments about everything. And I would have to go eventually get to some kind of a room and evaluate someone. But the, the,

the torment that they wanted to put on other people was horrific. And it was so psychologically savvy what they were doing. So I used to work in a lot of secure facilities. And in one facility in particular, there were individuals who were diagnosed with pedophilia.

And we did not allow them to have pornographic materials. We did not allow them to have magazines. If they had something like a real estate magazine or a newspaper, they had to read it in the day room, which was the main room where staff could see them.

But oftentimes, because there are thousands of patients or inmates and not as many staff members, they would sneak these newspapers into their rooms and they would cut out the images of the children. So even if it was an advertisement for a child in a bathing suit or fully dressed, they would cut out these images. And I frequently would walk by their rooms because I was walking around, checking on them, getting them for appointments.

And I would hear them masturbating and I would hear them making little noises. Like there were little children in the room and multiple little children, voices, boys and girls.

And a few times I would go in and staff would have to deal with this a lot too. So this was a frequent thing for the pedophiles that were not engaging in treatment. They would cut out the images of these children and they would rub them on their erect penises, pretending that they were the voices of the children. So pretending the children were actually the images and that they were there pleasuring the person.

The best thing that we could do as staff was we were non-reactive. We would enter the room, we would prevent them from orgasming if we could. We had no facial expressions. We would explain to them their consequences and we would take away the materials that they had hidden. And then usually their rooms would go under a full shakedown and they would be searched in and out to prevent any materials from remaining.

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But it's interesting because you say they're also childlike and kind. So is it like there's a big spectrum of what they, where they would be at? Because you also said pedophiles are who you would want in your corner if an altercation. Has that ever happened? Yeah. Oh, many times. Really? Yeah. And just to answer your question, yeah, there's a huge spectrum. I mean, these hospitals hold every kind of offender and some of the most brutal rapists I've ever met in my life as well, adult to adult. Mm-hmm.

But, oh, I've been in so many situations. So we would wear alarms on our hips. And I don't know how every place works. But if you felt threatened, you'd pop the alarm and it would put your name on everyone else's alarms. And then on the speaker, it would say, you know, Dobson Emergency Room 9 or whatever. And at that point in those settings, everybody is all hands on deck. It doesn't matter if you have training, if you're a custody officer, police, if you're

a young white woman who doesn't know what the hell she's doing to defend herself, you go. And so many times it was either me pulling the alarm and I was about to be assaulted or I was responding to an assault and could just try and do whatever I could do to stop someone getting beaten up, to stop someone getting raped, to stop someone from finishing hanging themselves. Oh my gosh. How often would you have to pop your alarm?

I used my alarm probably a couple times a week. Oh, my gosh. But it was three or four times a day that alarms would go off in general on a quiet day. Wow. I would imagine your husband did not love this. My husband worked with me. Oh, he did? He did. Oh, what does your husband do? He's a forensic psychologist. Oh, wow. And we had different names because there was also a problem in the hospital, prison hospital, where –

somebody had fallen in love with a woman and wanted to kill her husband who also worked there. Oh, wow. So we went many, many years without anyone there even knowing we were together. Oh, my gosh. I could only imagine, like, the dinner table conversations that go on between the two of you. Yes. Because we also have to find humor in this horror. Yeah, you have to. And then we would surround ourselves with people who also had that dark humor. And it did help us process that.

the trauma of it. Yes. Like a fireman or a police officer, you know, they have to honor the scene they went to and the loss they saw, but then they get back in the truck and they make fun of each other. They get back to the station and they're cooking and they're hanging out and they're becoming human again. Yeah. And so I had to do that too.

Of course, you can't stay in the dark the entire time. It would drive anybody crazy, I think. We had a new officer and he was trying to pepper spray a patient and he didn't hold it well. And the patient just took it and sprayed the officer. And at dinner, we were just laughing. As horrifying as that was, we were laughing saying, oh my gosh, like we were so close to getting sprayed in our faces too. Like clearly he needs more training. Yeah. But you have to

bring some kind of a lightness or else we can't maintain our jobs. Absolutely. And with the pedophiles that you did work with in the hospital, you had mentioned earlier what they would use the materials for when they would have newspaper clippings. And I just want to circle back to that a little bit because I

I think it's so important when you think through, even if it's not Ren and Jacqueline, if it's somebody who's innocent just posting a photo of their child at a dance recital with the leg kick up, she's in a leotard, full face of makeup. What are these pedophiles and predators doing with material like that?

when they see it or get access to it? Well, I think first they're keeping it in some way. Obviously, they're keeping it in their mind, but they're trying to keep it so that when they have, they build up a masturbatory stimulation and then they look forward to the moment that they can watch that image and masturbate them. And then it starts to build. They start to

They start to fantasize about a relationship with the image. What's she like? What would we do if we went out? What would our relationship be? Could I teach her how to have healthy sex because she's so young? Someone's going to need to teach her. Oh, God. What would that be like? That is horrifying as a parent. Yes. That is like my worst nightmare. Yes.

And that's why I talk to my daughter constantly about body parts that no one can touch. And even yesterday, she said somebody pushed her. And I said, where'd they push you? And she said, on the stomach. And I said, well, how would that make you feel? And she was like, it felt like a body part someone shouldn't touch. It was a different push than if they pushed me in the arm. And I said, then you need to tell your teacher. And you need to tell that person in your strong voice, you do not touch my stomach. Yeah. And we practiced.

and she did it. That's great. And she was really proud of herself. Yeah. So instilling that voice in our children at a young age to protect them is so important. So as I mentioned, I want to get started with one of the biggest topics out there right now. It's Ren Eleanor and her mom Jacqueline. Now as I said, many people have brought this stuff to Jacqueline's attention saying take your daughter offline. This could get in the wrong hands. This material is sexually suggestive.

But instead of taking her content down, Jacqueline will just often turn off the comments. And she will double down and say posting Ren isn't a bad thing. Regardless of all of these people, these thousands of people discussing it, trying to warn her, warn her of these possible pedophiles who are seeing this content, using this content. And if you do comment saying something, like I did back, I first commented in 2020 on a video of Ren holding with both hands this

foot-long hot dog and eating it and I said look not to be a Karen but if this video gets in the wrong hands I mean your child is being exploited and there's a lot of sick freaks out on the internet. I was immediately blocked and then when another video came out which I'll discuss in a minute I once again commented and I said look even if it's only one percent of males who are saving this video that's one percent too many. It shouldn't be any males saving this video and once again got blocked.

So anytime somebody comments that they disagree with her, she wipes the comment section clean and she just double downs and doesn't seem to even care that possible pedophiles are using her content for their own disgusting gratification. So let me describe some of these videos for you and then we're going to have Dr. Leslie weigh in. So here's an example of one. In a video back on June 21st, 2021, Ren was gnawing on some street corn, very long in the shape of a penis.

And she then starts to put this enormous foot-long hot dog in her open mouth. Now, again, yes, it could be perceived as innocent, but it also doesn't take a rocket scientist to note the symbolism here. She has two hands around this symbol,

these items of food that look very similar to a male organ and then eating them. And there's multiple videos like this where they're titled, What My Four-Year-Old Ate at the Fair Today, What My Four-Year-Old Is Eating Today. And it's a giant spicy pickle. It's all things in these shapes. And it's my opinion that she uses these foods

intentionally that these are the ones she chooses because she knows that it's going to get her the most views on her TikTok. There's another video comparing Jacqueline's choice of a Christmas outfit for Ren with an outfit that Ren's grandma chose, which again, sure, could be innocent enough. We know that moms sometimes want to dress their kids more trendy, more modern, where grandmas pick, you know, the cheesiest shirt they can find with like the big super huge baseball or whatever it is.

But Jacqueline's choice in all of this, it almost looked like a slutty Santa type costume where it made Ren look older, more suggestive, more showing her skin and her body. And it seems as time has gone on, guys, that the content just keeps escalating. She keeps pushing the boundaries. So not only is she wiping the comments clean and doubling down, but she's taking it further and further.

because in a video from March 2nd about swallowing gum, this video has over 20 million views. Jacqueline captioned the video, Never swallow your gum. It will be stuck in your stomach for seven years. Then in the video, it shows Wren. It's about a five-second video. It's not long, but Wren appears to swallow her gum, and then she looks directly at the camera, and she says in a very scared, frantic way, Oops, I swallowed it. Is that okay? Okay.

It is truly horrifying because Ren looks distressed and she looks legitimately scared. Now, listen to this if you're listening to the audio version, but I also will put the video with Ren's face blurred on YouTube so you can see what I'm talking about. Now, not only does this...

entire video give me pause and make me absolutely sick to my stomach because like you know what you're inferring with this video but also we don't know that Ren actually swallowed gum which doesn't matter at all but how many takes was it to get this video and also did Jacqueline direct Ren to be like I want you to look in distress I want you to pretend you're swallowing and then say oops I swallowed it and look frantic and look like you got caught doing something bad it was so carefully orchestrated because there is not a you couldn't

pay me a million dollars right now to believe that ren just had or that jacqueline just happened to have her phone recording and that she was just like oh at this exact moment she swallowed her gum and said oops is that okay did i do something wrong or what you know what did she say exactly she says i swallowed it is that okay you can't pay me a million dollars to believe that that was perfectly timed and coincidental it was orchestrated in my opinion which just makes it even sicker

Now, in other videos, she once again kind of starts taking it a step further. She starts saying that personal space is non-existent and when you have a toddler. And she shows Ren putting on lotion, putting on makeup, trying to lift up her shirt to put deodorant on, pretending to shave her genitals with a razor, and also acting like she's trying to insert a tampon.

her four-year-old daughter. Now she's clothed during all of these videos, but still, why are you even showing any of that stuff? And it is your four-year-old daughter.

Again, just truly vile. So all of this just over time has kind of been building and building and building, and it has created a massive uproar on TikTok, as I'm sure you can imagine. So the TikTokers are absolutely pissed, and there are hundreds and hundreds and even thousands, I think, of reaction videos, videos tagging Jaclyn, telling her how disgusting her behavior is, and really begging her to stop.

And one girl on TikTok gave examples of exactly what Jaclyn is doing and why it's wrong and proof how she knows that it's wrong. For example, how Jaclyn will specifically choose suggestive thumbnails for these videos, like thumbnails where Ren's legs are wide open. And that's the cover photo because it's enticing people to click into the video and watch the full video.

This is Wren, and this is her mom, Jacqueline. Do they look like a happy mom and daughter to you? Well, they're not. Every day these two wake up, she's excited because she gets to do a fun activity with mommy, and she's looking at her daughter thinking, hmm, what can I do with her to please them today? Don't believe me? Well, here's a list of 11 things proving that this mom knows exactly what she's doing. Number one is she handpicks the thumbnails. She finds the most inappropriate, suggestible moment in the video and makes that the thumbnail.

You're probably thinking, Jess, why would she handpick these inappropriate thumbnails? How could a mom do this to her own kid? To attract P-words? Yeah, she wants to attract P-words because they make her money. Number two, strange men are commenting inappropriate things on all of her videos and she's seen the comments. The mother, the mother has seen the comments and doesn't care. Take a quick break to hear from our first sponsors in today's case.

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All right, so let's get back to where we were. Now, in response to all of this criticism, if you're not getting blocked, muted, whatever it may be, Jacqueline had decided to make an apology video, which I have to say didn't land. It was not an apology video. So in the video, she says that she has taken all of these remarks about her daughter very seriously and that she would never do anything to harm her.

She even in this video claims that she spoke with the FBI directly and that she verified that there aren't any images of her daughter on any inappropriate sites. Take a listen. The past few months have been incredibly distressing and I've learned a lot. What started out as a hobby to make a digital scrapbook for my daughter, Ren, grew into an interesting role for me as a single stay-at-home mom.

Ren is my number one priority and her upbringing and safety are my top job 24 hours a day. This account has allowed me to provide for my daughter and to set aside money for her future. I'm not sure how this conspiracy theory got started and spiraled out of control. What you need to know is that no law enforcement agencies I conferred with, including the FBI, have found any proof that my daughter's likeness appears on inappropriate websites. These rumors are 100% false.

If anyone has real tangible proof, please contact me immediately. My email appears within my TikTok profile. What is true, Ren is a happy, healthy three-year-old. The videos we film together from my account a couple of hours a week are fun and lighthearted. TikTok analytics show that my followers are 76.8% female, thus more than 13 million females, including lots of moms. And I thank you for watching and for your interest in my family.

What baffles me is that rumor spreaders express such passionate concern for my daughter, yet law enforcement has found zero real proof about these untrue allegations. Creating videos talking about scurrilous rumors that my three-year-old daughter appears on porn sites isn't proof. Repeating false information over and over will never convert into fact. Doing so is wrongfully smearing my daughter's name and unjustly damaging my reputation.

well let me just tell you guys that is not true because i personally have seen wren's images and videos on telegram through private discords i think somebody even saw them on what is that 8chan or however you pronounce it that site so people are definitely taking this material repackaging it and doing some sick and twisted things with it someone i can't verify this next piece of information but somebody did say that somebody is even selling

a package of Ren's videos and material, and that one person had reached out to somebody else saying that they would pay them if they recreated Ren's little voice and said certain messages back to him. I'm not going to say what those messages are, but I'm sure that you can imagine.

So speaking about Wren and about Jacqueline, we know that she started the account when Wren was first born back in 2019, 2020. And then it's just continuously has gotten more sexually explicit. The most latest one being the gum and then the street corn, the corn dogs in the mouth, all of these things. You had mentioned that she had sent you an email. Now, do you mind just sharing what that email said? Yeah.

We don't know if it came from Jacqueline. No, that's okay. We don't know if it came from Jacqueline or her camp or what, but... It's a long email. Okay. But basically what it goes through is that statistically I'm wrong and that...

80% of the comments are not men that maybe 60,000 or so are saved and commented on adult men who also follow children accounts. So I think that's wrong. I did a deep dive into it and I do think there are a lot more male accounts.

But what she does say is that eating is not sexual unless you want it to be. It doesn't matter what somebody posts. If you want to find something wrong, you can twist it into something sexual.

And then continues to say that fame has gone to my head. I should be a nice person. I am probably a very nice person. And I'm leading to direct threats to this child by calling out this account. And they're praying for me. So I guess my question with that is, let's just say that was true. Let's give Jacqueline or her camp or whoever else, let's give her the benefit of the doubt. And let's say it's true.

why would her child be threatened because you're trying to expose what she's putting her through? If anything, I think the threats would be aimed towards Jacqueline for doing the exposing, which would then in turn show that the behavior is not normal and that she shouldn't be doing that. Plus, again, she's not calling the FBI and getting this information and realizing that she's not in danger. Yes.

It didn't make sense, and it seems very disordered. And it gives me insight into how they may be perceiving the account and how they may be justifying it, maybe beyond any kind of reality. There's something, like we can all ask, there's something up here. We don't know. Something's going on. What do you think it is? Why do you think she won't take her off? Do you think it's solely the money?

My assumption would be it's solely the money. I know people have come out and said that she has a son who she never puts up. I don't know what he looks like. Because she protects him. Yeah, and a little girl is definitely going to be, it's going to get more of a following. Mm-hmm.

But, you know, when she does videos on her own, she doesn't really get a lot of following or a lot of saves. How did that Easter one do? I haven't seen it yet. It didn't do very well. And it wasn't in it. It was just what she got for her Easter basket. Yes. And the comments were largely, you know, nice try. Yeah.

Yeah, she's trying to show it's not all about exploiting my daughter. I do a little bit of everything. Yes, and I'm sure she has a PR team that's trying to clean it up now because everybody, not just her, everyone's profiting off the money in some way. Everyone is working for her and the content. But it's bad. It needs to come down. I know. And if we can't...

If TikTok won't change or Instagram won't change, then we have to continue to report the accounts and continue to stop following them. I would assume based on other cases that I've had, when it reaches this level of notoriety, there are a lot of eyes on scene. So we've got private investigators. We've probably got lawyers that are paying to just observe this in case they get to pick up

the case. And then I would assume there are government agencies like Child Protective Services that locals and neighbors and people around the country have probably called and called in. And then, of course, you have mandated reporters. So you've got doctors, teachers, all these people who are made aware of this content and

their obligation is also to make a report because there is a belief of justifiable harm to a child. A reasonable belief. So we have to.

Now, I agree with you. I think sometimes the internet can go wild and they think that they're investigators. And I would imagine there probably has been a lot of calls that have gone out to CPS by at this point. But legally, CPS can't do anything. They can't for her posting these sexually explicit or not even explicit, but suggestive videos. They can't do anything. So,

Do you think it's your opinion that either one day she'll wake up and maybe she'll change her mind or that it's going to maybe take something's going to have to happen and it's going to be shut down because legally she's not doing anything. Legally, it could fall under child exploitation. Okay. And it may take a lawyer to really navigate that because under child exploitation, some of the images on these accounts and not just REN's accounts, but, you know,

well the shaving and the tampon or the open legs could be seen as child exploitation and if the laws and the bills start to change and they're still providing the video and the images then we could go down that avenue

But also the potential psychological harm to the child is something that they could look at. But it is going to take somebody sophisticated in that area in which she lives in to really start to devote themselves to the case. It seems like that would be a very difficult case and like a steep hill to climb. And it may just be a local podcaster. I mean, that's how we solve this.

Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Yeah, yeah. So I have a question too with that. You had mentioned that we were talking earlier about the videos about her using the tampon, pretending to shave her vagina area all on camera. For pedophiles, what goes on psychologically in their head from your experience? Because clearly they're entranced and infatuated with a little girl or a little boy or somebody young. But when you

People have them portrayed as more like adult-like, whether it's the slutty Santa costume or shaving or using a tampon. How does that give pedophiles gratification or does it? Because now they're doing more adult things or they're looking more adult, even like the toddlers and tiaras little girls who have the full veneers in or whatever it is. Do they still get the same stimulation from things like that?

Yes, I think we need to remember that a pedophile, and even if it's a youth sexual predator, is still an adult. So it's an adult who has an emotional and psychological, maybe delusional relationship to a child, but they have an adult sex drive. Okay. So...

they might be looking at these little girls thinking they're very dateable. We could have really, we could have conversations, you know, we could really hang out because we're, maybe they're at that cognitive psychological IQ level, but they still have testosterone and erect male penises and they want to use that. So then if you have a little girl doing adult things that are sexualized, then it just welcomes the, um,

the sexual nature into the emotional psychological relationship they've built up in their head with who they think is an equal to them.

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That's interesting. So it's almost as though it's solidifying that this person is more of an equal and appear to them on their level. Yes. And that it's more acceptable almost. Yes. Wow. My mind wouldn't have even gone there. And that totally makes sense. It's very disturbing. And we don't talk about it.

we don't talk about it a lot. Yeah. Because you, I mean, I would think that just for a lay person like myself or other people, you think, oh, a pedophile, somebody who's interested in little girls or little boys, they probably aren't interested once they reach a certain age. They need to look very innocent. They need to look very youthful. But that really isn't the case. No, a lot of research shows that they are psychologically and emotionally at the level of the interest of their sexual interest. So, yeah,

They're very meek, most of the pedophiles I've worked with. They're very kind. They are who I would prefer to be around in a violent setting. But that's what's so scary because then they're just hiding among people. Yes, they're very childlike.

Wow. But they're adult men with adult penises that become erect and they want to put them in children. Oh my God. So Dr. Leslie, as an expert, can you explain the overall issue of how pedophiles who can't access pornography will now use social media accounts for their fix?

After years of working with pedophiles, I can tell you that they use images in magazines, newspapers, and especially images found on social media. Because if it's up there on social media, then to them it's not wrong and it's easily accessible. So they use it to masturbate, they use it to fantasize, and they also package it and they sell image packages on the dark web to other pedophiles or sex offenders.

Wow, it is so interesting hearing you break it down that way because that makes complete sense. So I appreciate it. I do want to ask you this. Why would Jacqueline say that she's talked to the FBI about any of this stuff? Because is that even possible? Can somebody just call the FBI and say like, hey, is my child's face anywhere online? Anybody can call the FBI. There's an anonymous tip line and they can talk to people. But you can't call the FBI and say, hey, I think my kid is on something.

the dark web can you check? That's not their skill set. Those are different agencies and different government agencies and also they are private investigators that can be retained. So when she posted that video and she said that I immediately had some skepticism and I also thought to myself if you're going to that extent to either lie and make the video or you actually did call the FBI anonymous tip line

Even if you have a friend in the FBI, if you are going to that extent and you are worried, then that's enough of a red flag for you to take your child off the internet and reduce any threat to her. How do you think that all of this might impact Wren's mental health as she grows up and enters adulthood? As this sticks with her because we know even if the account gets deleted, all of this material is on the internet forever.

I think being brought up on social media and being the image that is used by a lot of predators from being a baby all the way to four years old and probably going into the future, that this little girl and girls like it will struggle with identity. They will struggle with knowing who they are. They will struggle with focusing on the negative comments that are received on all of those videos.

They will struggle with wondering if people know who they are, if people masturbated to them, where their images are online, because they'll be there forever. They will struggle probably with harm to themselves, addiction, ways to medicate themselves in improper manners like

substance abuse or using sexuality in the wrong ways themselves. The problem is that all the money in the world can't undo when you've harmed the most important developmental phases of your life in those early 10-12 years.

More and more children who are now late teenagers or young adults are coming out and talking about what it was like to be in a family vlogging home. One even said that if she spilled water, her mom would grab a camera and say, we have to do a retake, spill the water again and then clean it again. And on average, it would be about 17 takes.

Now, I know it's 2024 and we aren't giving kids a childhood that they used to have because of social media and the Internet and tablets. But what kind of life are you giving a child if all you're doing is filming them? You're not having that connection with them. It's not natural. They're constantly feeling produced.

and they have the weight of the world on their shoulders because they are the ones making money for the family. And a lot of the times the families are saying you need to do this because this is how we afford our lifestyle. So what's that going to do to a child over time? They don't get to enjoy their childhood. They don't build their identity. They don't build their confidence. They don't get to experience normal developmentally appropriate things and they have a

image of who they are and what they need to be to their family. And then at the same time, they're getting all of the comments and all of the followers who are negative, but also putting more and more expectations on these children who are eventually likely going to be extremely hard on themselves.

And again, we go into this like we've seen with Nickelodeon and we've seen with a lot of child stars as they move into addiction and substances and criminality. And it is a way for them to self-medicate the unmet and horrible negative emotions that have come from being in the limelight their entire lives.

100%. I could not agree with you more. And I really do appreciate you sharing all of your insights on that and your knowledge because it's so true. So talking about online safety in general, we had briefly discussed that there are currently a couple bills in the works. So I was a little bit confused on it. So I broke it all down here. But

There's one specifically that's in Wisconsin, and it's about banning childlike sex dolls that are out there. And then in Florida, Tennessee, South Dakota, and Hawaii, they have apparently already outlawed them, which is great. Now, the argument with these is that some people say that they, of course, provide pedophiles another outlet besides actual children because they are so lifelike. They look so real. Even just last night, I was scrolling TikTok, and there was a woman who had one of these dolls, and there were...

there were some like irregularities with the face. She had made it look that way. And she was like rocking it to sleep and pretending to sing songs. And she was on a live and people were watching it and like fascinated with it. And I was like, what the hell is going on here? Like, this is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. But then for the other dolls, people are of course using them to live out their sick fantasies. And some people are saying that, of course it's adding to the problem, but then there's that other similar argument about the use of AI and people saying that it could be helpful to,

with having the access to AI giving pedophiles their fix, getting them the gratification that they want, and it prevents real children from being victims, and they're almost saying that it's better that way. However, another point going back to Ren is that people could be using AI and doing things like that. I saw that other podcaster, Bobbi, her podcast,

video of her, just her face imposed on a sexual explicit video was all over Twitter. And it's like these capabilities out there in technology, it's so scary. And so is there anything, I mean, aside from the bills and the different laws, hopefully that go into play, but like what else can anybody do with that? I guess nothing. It's so hard. Yeah. It's so hard. I mean, protect your, protect your images the best you can. But yeah,

I mean, these dolls are just fucking ridiculous. I mean, the human nature is to build on drive and stimulation needs to build over time. And if you are a predator, you are probably a psychopath, which means you have brain structures that lead you to meet satisfaction sooner and need more and more and bigger and bigger satisfaction. So these dolls scientifically are completely ridiculous. There's no...

no science to say that we should allow the pleasure and that it's going to stop it. No way. It is fully going to enable it. A hundred percent. If you do a bad behavior, you need to stop. You need a consequence. And over time, you're going to remember that consequence. It's going to start to deter the bad behavior. That's how psychology works. So those dolls piss me off like no other. I know. It's beyond creepy. And people are making them look like other people that they're seeing on the internet. It's horrifying. Yeah. And then you've got the mom, the jug mom.

Wait, who's the drug mom? Oh, you've got it. Oh, no. Who's the drug mom? She's been banned numerous times, and she uses these dolls to pretend she's breastfeeding just to show her boobs off on social media. It's a fake doll. Wait, what? And she's, like, nursing this thing? She's pretending to nurse, so then you're allowed to nurse on social media. Oh, to work around. She's got massive breasts, but she's using the doll. She purchased the doll.

Just start an OnlyFans. Like, what the fuck? Like, why do you have to be doing this? Oh, she's on everything. Okay. And what's her name? I need to look her up. She keeps changing the accounts. Of course. Something about like, it was recently like the Jug Mom. Oh my God. What is, I'm like really worried about our whole world actually. All right, guys, we're going to take one final break to hear from the final sponsors of today's episode. But I think one of the things that I'm really worried about is that

I think one great thing is that if you see a child pop up on your feed, scroll out of it immediately because, you know, the first five seconds is when that account is going to make money. Yep. So don't endorse the accounts. And if you want to see what people are talking about, like if you want to go look at Ren right now, go to like one of our accounts where we've addressed it and we've screenshot it. Yeah. So that you're not feeding into it and they're not making money off it.

Absolutely. I think, too, another piece of that is if you watch even that first five seconds, it tells the algorithm that somebody is interested in it. So it's going to push that video out to more people. And the chances are that it's going to be pushed out at some point to somebody who we don't want that video to get into their hands. Yes.

So based on what's your takeaway based on we had talked about a little bit about Jacqueline and Ren. We now there's obviously so much coming out with Quiet on Set, all of these victims from Nickelodeon. It does feel like there's a shift happening and that hopefully we're on the brink of like an actual real movement protecting kids and stopping kids from being exploited and abused.

adults being creepy, earning money off their backs, all sorts of things. Where do you see everything going from here? I see harsher restrictions for pedophilia. So predators do not respond to empathy tactics. They often don't respond to therapy.

If I sit down with a psychopath and I do there and I have and I do therapy with them, all they're doing is learning how to manipulate other people by taking what I'm doing and then turning it into them and then they do it to someone else. So we need to up the consequences of these behaviors. And a lot of bills are trying to do that, especially when it comes to pedophilia. The bar needs to be life in prison, not prison.

12 weeks of treatment and an ankle monitor. Right? We don't even have enough parole agents to follow them around and track them. Mm-hmm. The rule is that on Halloween they have to stay inside. How do we know? That's interesting. Who's gonna check? Yeah. Right? I hadn't heard that. That makes total sense. Right. Another rule is that before they have sex with anyone they have to disclose their sexual predator. Mm-hmm.

Nobody's going to do that. Nobody's going to do that. Are you kidding me? So we can advocate in that way by bills and laws and spreading the message and getting people more powerful than you and I to buy into this.

And then we have all this movement happening with, you know, what's going to happen to TikTok. And can we advocate through Instagram to start setting parameters on these accounts? You know, I started in OnlyFans because I was really curious what would happen. And what happened? Well,

It was really easy. So I could say that my seven-year-old could easily start an OnlyFans. Oh, my gosh. She knows my social security. She could easily get a credit card. She understands what a W-9 is. So you have to put in all this information. And the issue I'm having with her right now is that facial recognition is working on her because we look so similar. Right.

Wow. She could navigate at seven starting in OnlyFans. Wow. So that's where we could start bringing in AI to help protect rather than enable this person

perpetuation of children. Have you done any sort of exploration on OnlyFans or through Telegram or any of those sites to see what's out there in terms of children content? I do. I dig around a lot. And part of the reason I started the OnlyFans was because I want to... I'm going to start putting up different content, nothing sexual, but I want to see how people respond. Mm-hmm.

OnlyFans is coming out saying they want to be more of a cooking show or more... Like subscription model, like Patreon almost. Yes. So I want to see... I just want to see what happens when I bring the same content to different platforms. But I've also dug around on Telegram. I...

you know, 8chan. I've gone deep into the dark web and seen what's there and it's very disturbing. I also interviewed at TikTok. I went through five or six interviews to be in the role of taking down the content that was so horrifying before it got to you. And they defunded the job. Wow. Why? Just because the content makes money? Must be. I don't know. I mean, AI has the ability to take it down too. Yeah. But they don't.

They don't. I mean, there's so much horrible content. Yeah. So I have to ask you, if you were in a room with Jacqueline, what would you say to her? If you could just like get it all out and be like, here's why I think what you're doing is dangerous. What is it you would say to somebody like her? Well, I would probably have her sign a waiver. Smart. And then I would let her know the six hours of psychological assessments I would be administering. Yes. With her consent. Yes. Yes.

I don't want to judge her without knowing her. But what I am judging is the evidence and the reactions of the world and the amount of people following that child. And I don't doubt that she's aware. Oh, of course. She has to be aware. My mind immediately goes to what is...

what is the reason this is continuing? Is it an individual's understanding personality or is it monetary or is maybe there's an outside force, right? We've got Chad Dayball and zombies, Ruby Frankie. And I don't even know if that wasn't Mormonism, whatever that was. I mean, even Jody Hildenbrandt is known to hear voices and might have schizophrenia in some of these reports. So I,

I would want to first just get the full picture of who she is before really judging what she's done to her child. That's an interesting point because if it isn't just about the money and if there is something else there, you had mentioned something about like, does she know what she's doing in the full extent? And that then kind of throws me back to that FBI video she did where she's like, I talked to the FBI. They said that predators aren't watching the material, which obviously we call bullshit on. That didn't happen. But yeah,

to have the balls to even do a video like that, does she truly believe what she's saying, I guess? Right. And then that's different. In everyday life, we look at mental health differently than in court systems, right? So, like, Chad Daybell could get the death penalty because he may be insane, but he definitely showed...

an understanding of the consequences. He was meticulous. He planned. He was in the right state of mind when all of these incidences happened. So he could be insane and still be killed. But in therapy and outside of the legal system, we have to look at, okay, what is your mental state? And what are we going to do with it to make sure everyone stays healthy and happy and we're not moving into anything like a legality? So they're very different contexts. And it really depends where...

where that account is going. And there are probably things happening we're very unaware of. And with that being said, you had mentioned briefly earlier about how men predators will make the childlike voices, they'll save the material. So

What would you advise to somebody who has created content like that, whether it's her or somebody else, what predators could be doing with that material? Aside from, of course, what we know, probably masturbating and things like that. But how else they're creatively using the material or repurposing the material? I would say they are...

They are using AI to alter the images. They are packaging the images. They're selling them. They're making money off them. They are also probably trying to get things that the children have worn or something that would like smell like the child. So they're going to get accessories in order to build these packages back up.

And eventually someone will try to find the child. So for me, safety is huge. When you have 17 million followers, you're not just going to go into Walmart. People are going to be tracking you. You are going to need security. This child, and I think I read that she was pulled out of school. Oh, I didn't see that. Yes. So the safety with that many followers, and I'm comparing that to there are,

well-known celebrities who have far less followers and have full security teams. So what is the security and what is the safety? Because eventually somebody is going to want to meet that child in person. And people on these accounts know where they live. They have met the child. They see them in the grocery store. And these comments are quickly deleted so that nobody can see it. Good, to keep them safe. But

They are a known entity. So for anyone who's online and posting anything about their life, safety and security is the most important thing to me.

And it seems like even if she does think she's being careful and that everybody else is wrong and she's right and that if they're going to be perverted and take it one way, I can't stop them. But you're also exacerbating the issue because her thumbnails keep getting more explicit. It's the wide open legs. The content itself is getting more suggestive. We ended with that gum video is probably the most recent thing. And so it's at some point, at least from my, and I'm obviously not a professional like you, but it's like from my point of view, I'm like,

you know full well what you're doing because you're doubling down, you're increasingly pushing the limits with the content you're putting out there. It's not like you think you're just doing something innocent and then you're trying to get a bigger reaction out there. It seems very intentional. Yes. And the thumbnail is...

is probably one of the biggest pieces of evidence for me. Because then it's like you're prompting, you want them to click in. You want them to see what that is. Sorry. No, that's okay. And I don't know if like, I don't know if people listening know that like when you post a video, it's not just the first second of the video that shows up as the image. You go through the video and you pick the image you want to be on your screen.

Oh, yeah. You have to be very particular and choose. And on Instagram, you can actually take a photo from your camera roll and put that as the thumbnail. It doesn't even have to be anything that was in the video. So it is very carefully curated. It is very meticulous. Yeah.

It's sick. I hope it ends soon. And what other advice would you give to parents or not even parents, just other people out there who maybe are an aunt, an uncle, anybody like that? What can they do to make sure, even if they're not the ones posting the content, to make sure that they're being smart about whatever content they are posting? Is it something where...

maybe they don't want to jump to blurring the faces, but they are mindful and they put the full family or what can they do to just be more mindful to where it's like, you may not know what you don't know. And you don't know that what you're posting is could be getting in the wrong hands.

I think one great thing is on Facebook to be notified if you're tagged in something before it gets posted onto your account. So you set your own restrictions and if people want to tag you, you have to say yes or no. Because you know we've got the grandparents who don't really know the settings. Right. I mean, and my father is notorious for being the first one to post every one of our children and not asking us. And you know, we just had the baby. We look like total shit and he's putting us all over the internet. Of course.

So also have that conversation with your family. Have the pictures taken down. Set some guidelines and explain to them. And at the end of the day, if they don't agree, I don't care. It's your child. It's your person to protect. And you don't have to explain yourself. Absolutely. Absolutely. You had come out with a book recently in January, right? Yes. Can you share a little bit about that?

It's called the friend cleanse. I love that. What I found was that during COVID, a lot of my clients were happier, which surprised me. And it was because they had this external boundary telling them that they didn't have to hang out with people they hated.

And then as COVID lifted, everyone felt this obligation again to start socializing. And as somebody who's worked very hard on my boundaries, because I've had to with all these psychopaths around, I wanted to write a little book to just give people permission to say, hey, you're in control of your energy. You don't have to be around people who drain you. And you should keep people close to you who build you up. So for me, my three-year-old is going to drain me probably.

probably until he's like five or six, right? So I have to be very careful about who's in my inner circle. They can only really build me up. And if I have to be around somebody who's going to be draining, I'm going to step back and plan ahead. I'm going to plan that week. I'm going to plan the interactions. I'm going to plan my out. I'm going to plan what I'm going to say. And so the book talks about, you know, describing these people in your lives, deciding who is

is really a necessity for this point in your life. Maybe it's someone you love, but you have to bookmark and come back to later. And then I made a little sphere on my website. Oh, I love that. It's free. And I just wanted to play around with it. But you can put yourself in the middle of the sphere and it moves around. And then you can put your friends and family who drains you or who increases your energy. And then you have this little cup of rosé wine and it goes up and down. I love it.

You need to like patent this trade market if you haven't already. You have to. That is the best thing I think I've ever heard. Yeah, I think it needs some work, but it's free. You can just go on and play. What I would love is if it was like an app. So you're at school drop off and you're like, OK, Sally's in the trash can. Yeah, totally. You're not filling my rosé cup. Get out of here, Sally. No way. I love that. And so where can everybody pick up your book? It's on Amazon. Perfect.

Perfect. And then my website's drlesleydobson.com. And then I'm on TikTok and Instagram. Yeah, what are your social handles on? Is it all the same everywhere? Dr. Leslie Dobson. Great. I love it. It's pretty easy. I love that. Thank you so much for joining today. It was great talking with you. Yes. Thank you. It was a lot of fun. We'll have to do this again. I have so many questions. And I hope people listening do something nice for themselves right now. Yes, yes. I know. Please, I know. We probably just...

fucked up your whole day so sorry about that um okay thank you so much this was great thank you i loved that great all right guys thank you so much for joining me for another episode today of serialously with annie elise i am so thankful i had dr leslie on we are definitely going to be doing another one very soon i feel like she is just a wealth of knowledge and she is such a great resource to have make sure you're following her if you're not already she has so many tips tricks

insights it she's just again a wealth of knowledge so I think we're going to collaborate on an upcoming episode regarding like Chad Daybell Colts Brian Koberger things that really go on psychologically in these people's minds so definitely check back for that very soon she lives locally so we're going to be able to do it pretty quickly

All right, guys, thank you again. And I hope you enjoyed the episode. Don't forget to follow the podcast if you're not already so that you don't miss any future episodes. I'll be back on the mic with you very soon with an all new deep dive case. And as a reminder, if you feel like you still need your true crime fix throughout the week, we do put out exclusive ad free bonus episodes every single Friday. You can get access to those either through Apple podcasts on the app on your phone or through Patreon, which is patreon.com slash Annie Elise.

and we put a new one out every single Friday. Other than that, thank you guys so much for tuning in to another episode, and until the next one, be nice, don't kill people. All right, bye guys.