112: Exposing the Lies of Nichol Kessinger: Chris Watts' Mistress | Secret Calls, Red Flags & Manipulation
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Today's episode of Serialistly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Now, most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yes, I know you are. While you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you are not in some kind of moving vehicle, there is something else you can be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

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The just-released video shows 30-year-old Nicole Kessinger being interrogated. Did you ever say anything to him about life? Never. I don't even know if I should say this, but Chris, while he was talking to Special Agent Coder, made a lot of movements towards his neck area. Special Agent Coder actually came out of the room.

And he said he may have strangled her. It's interesting that agents draw conclusions based on Chris's body language, but why weren't the same conclusions drawn for NKs despite her exhibiting the same exact behavior? Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly.

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly with me, Annie Elise. Now, it looks like we have gotten quite a few new listeners over there. I don't know if I just said proper English. It doesn't sound like I did. Gotten, we've gotten, we have received, whatever. But anyways, you get what I mean.

We have been charting. I am so excited. Last week, we actually hit a new milestone for the podcast. We were number four on the true crime charts. We were number eight for all categories, sandwiched right there with Smartless and Mel Robbins. I mean, incredible. So my whole point to saying all of that

was if you are a new listener and you are just checking us out for the first time or maybe even the second time because you heard about another episode and that's what brought you over here, thank you for taking the time to listen. And hopefully you enjoy it and hopefully this becomes a staple podcast in your routine, whether it's on your commute, cleaning the house, on a walk, whatever it is you're doing.

Now today's case that we are going to talk about, boy oh boy guys, it is one that has a lot of controversy out there and it really has for years. It has to do with Chris Watts. Now don't worry, I'm not going on this like long dark road of Chris Watts and going back to Watts Island in that sense because we all are pretty familiar I would imagine with the Chris Watts case by now.

If by some fraction of a miracle you are not familiar with that case and you do want a Chris Watts deep dive, let me know either via the Spotify Q&A section or through Apple Reviews, and we can certainly talk about doing that. But I'm sure most of you by now know all about who Chris Watts is, the garbage human being he is, what he did, all of these things.

Now, the last time I talked about Chris Watts, and specifically Chris Watts and Nicole Kessinger, his mistress, I thought that it was going to be my very last trip to Watts Island. But I hate to say it, I'm back. Here I am once again. Every time I think I've left that dumpster fire in the past, it just somehow like fucking ropes me back in and...

Only for good reason. I will say that. I'm not like just trying to like, you know, beat a dead horse. That's not a great expression. But like, what is it? Squeeze the... Whatever. I'm not good at expressions, guys. But you get what I'm saying. I'm not like trying to just talk about it for the sake of talking about it. There is a legit reason. Because there is a lot of inconsistencies, a lot of red flags, a lot of what I view as circumstantial, yes, but shady, certainly, evidence. So I kind of want to talk about it.

Now, as I've previously said when I've talked about this case in the past, I completely 100% respect and agree with Shanann's family, the Rucheks, with their beliefs, their position that Chris is the sole person responsible for the heinous murders of Shanann, Bella, Cece, and Nico through and through. Absolutely.

However, I would be remiss if I did not bring up that there are more things about Nicole Kessinger that have surfaced, and this is after extensive, extensive research. So there is a lot that I have to talk with you guys about today, guys, because now I'm even more enraged, more just disgusted, and enraged.

more convinced now more than ever actually that nicole knew way more than she was letting on so in today's episode we are doing a full summary not of chris watts and what his trash human being

self did but this is a deep dive of Nicole Kessinger and how she may in fact be a true master level manipulator so we're going to be going into everything but just like here's a little top level preview first we're going to of course talk about her phone pings from the days of the murder days before the murder all of those different things and some inconsistencies there we're

We're also going to talk about a secret three-way phone call that is believed to have taken place where she actually listened in on a conversation that Chris was having with the lead detective when they were trying to figure out where Shanann had gone. At that time, she was still just deemed to be missing. And it was kind of like the vibes of they were trying to suss out the information that that detective knew and Nicole was listening in, which we go into great detail about that.

We also are going to talk about her whereabouts, the night and early morning hours of the murders and when those took place, and then even her whereabouts later that afternoon. Some shady stuff with her time stamps at work, some phone calls she made from the office.

We're just going to talk about her phone pattern and history as a total. And I mean, we're just going to talk about a ton of the different lies and inconsistencies because through all of her interviews and then what's outlined in the 200 pages of Discovery and what is there as black and white forensic and digital evidence,

There is so much that didn't match guys. For example, when she had said that she was pushing him back into the marriage, that she wanted him to make his marriage work, that he should go to North Carolina to make it work, and that she was going to give him space. Meanwhile, she is simultaneously searching wedding dresses for two hours. She's googling the phrase, will a man leave his wife and his kids for his mistress? Like, there is just so, so much to talk about. So,

I do want to give you a heads up because she did several different interviews and things are a little fractured. It doesn't exactly go in chronological order, but we're going to touch on all of these points along the way. So I think it's easy enough to follow, especially if you are familiar with the case. But I did want to just kind of throw that out there in case as we're going, you're like, wait, we didn't talk about the morning of the murders yet. It all comes. All right. So let's just jump right in.

So as I said, I previously did an in-depth video back in 2022 where I was really outlining all of Nicole's lies, her red flags, which was directly tied to evidence that came out of a 2,000-page document of discovery. And I will link that full document in the show notes, but I read every single page, guys. Literally. 2,000 pages. I read every single page. I watched the hours and hours worth of her interrogation and interview footage, and

when i tell you i did my motherfucking homework on this i definitely did plus since that video there have been a lot of new updates as well so we have got a lot to talk about in this episode i'm also going to be playing some clips from her video footage of her interview i'm going to be also playing some clips from a youtube channel called ats news which is a very good true crime channel and she has covered so much of the watts case

So definitely check that channel out, and I will link it in the show notes too. But I'm adding in some media so that you can really hear in Nicole's words her reaction, her vernacular, all of the different things. Now before we get into Nicole, I do want to share with you some hate voicemails that Chris received, and these were released and put into the Discovery. And honestly, they're pretty top-notch. They're pretty great. So take a listen. Hey, this is Chris. Can't get to the phone right now, so leave a message. Can't get to the call back.

Chris Watts, baby killer. There's not a lot I could say to you that hasn't already been said to you a bunch of times by a bunch of people. So I just wanted to let you know that I hope you do have a really long life. I hope you live a really long life in the hell concrete art box of your design.

You're a piece of shit, bro. Go f*** yourself. Hope you rot and die in prison. Oh, Chris, Chris, Chris. You're not going to be able to get to the phone for a while, my man. A long f***ing while. Hope you rot.

There are also voicemails from Nicole from Before the Murders where honestly, she sounds like a giggly child. And this audio makes every single inch of my body just like shrivel up, crawl,

cringe to the core because it is so so bad and I want to apologize in advance because it is one of those things where when you hear somebody or see somebody do something you get like secondhand embarrassment you know what I'm talking about but I think that in hearing the way that she talks to Chris it's a really good illustration of their dynamic and how she talks to him and what their relationship is before we full on dig into all of her lies and the ways that she portrays herself throughout all of her interviews. Hi.

It's me. I miss your face. I was just calling to say hi. Call me back. Bye. Hi. It's me. You guys just call me back when you have a chance. Bye. So Nicole had an interview with the police on August 16, 2018. This was three days after the murder of Chris Watts' entire family, where he just annihilated everybody.

This interview was over three and a half hours long, and the entire time she is just rambling and then talking her way through it and convincing these FBI agents that there is absolutely nothing to see in regards to her. And she does it in a way that is just crazy.

truly incomprehensible and frankly mind-boggling. Now let's start within this interview. Nicole says that after meeting Chris in June of 2018, she didn't know Shanann's name. She didn't know it right away and that she didn't even know her name for a while, although he did mention having a significant other. Your relationship with Chris and what you know about Chris and his family,

and events relating to Chris Watts. He mentioned that he did have a significant other, and then he told me that those two were in the process of a separation. Did he mention the children's name or his significant other's name? I didn't know his significant other's name for a while.

So if this were true, if she truly did not know Shanann's name and she didn't learn of it until, you know, well after meeting Chris and starting their affair, tell me, how is it possible that she was searching for Shanann's name and using her specific name in those searches and those searches dated back way earlier before she even met Chris?

Because police found that she had been searching on Google for Chris Watts as early as August 3rd, 2017, and she didn't meet him until June 2018. And she was also searching for Shanann Watts back in January of 2018. Again, months before she met Chris. Feels a little gross, right? Feels a little, that doesn't really make much sense. Now,

Now, originally there were reports that she was searching Shanann back in 2017, and around that same time she was also searching Chris's name. However, it was then disclosed that it was a typo, but that there were proven search histories that showed that she was searching Shanann in January of 2018. However, that is not completely correct. Now, I discussed this in my previous video, but after even more research, I learned that there was a significant detail that really gives me pause.

So this is coming directly from Crime Online, and I will link this article in the show notes so you can see it for yourself. But it says, Last week, a records supervisor at the Frederick Police Department said that an entry in one of the phone data review reports showed that Kessinger did an internet search for Shanann Watts on September 1, 2017, and that it was a typo, and they referred Crime Online to the Weld County District Attorney's Office for further clarification on that entry.

and on additional entries in a different section of Phone Data Review, showing that Kessinger searched for Shanann Watts in January 2018, which references multiple deleted searches for Chris Watts dating back to August of 2017.

Following a series of email exchanges and phone calls with the Weld County District Attorney's Office regarding the reports, Crime Online spoke by phone to Weld County District Attorney Michael Rourke on Monday. Rourke said that the reports reflect what was shown in the forensic analysis of Nicole Kessinger's phone.

Michael Rourke said, It is not a typo error in the report. The detectives are reporting what was contained in the data from her phone. I don't know the answer to the question of why or how those dates ended up in her phone.

When if the district attorney's office questioned or planned to question Kessinger about data suggesting she was aware of Chris and Shanann for up to a year before the murders, Rourke said that Chris Watt's guilty plea precluded any need to further probe the results of the forensic analysis of Kessinger's phone. Michael Rourke said, "...we did not get to the point in our investigation of attempting to independently verify that or not because Chris Watt's pled guilty."

When you ask me if I have verified that information, the answer to your question is no. Nicole Kessinger told us that she met and started the relationship with the defendant in 2018. So where that anomaly in the data comes from, I can't answer it for you. I don't know the answer to it.

I mean, a pretty loaded statement, and I'm going to break it down a little bit too for you, but many suspect that this is actually why Nicole's father kept saying, quote, if Chris confesses, it'll be the end of the case, right? Always like kind of wanting to make sure that it'll be the end if he just confesses that they won't look into his daughter anymore. And a lot of people also think that that's why Chris confessed so quickly after he failed that polygraph test, so that he could essentially save Nicole from being implicated in any of this.

Now, what stuck out in that statement to me the most is they are saying there is clear data from the district's attorney's office saying she had searches in her phone dating back to before the murders, before she even met Chris.

Why those weren't further investigated was simply because Chris pled guilty and confessed to everything, which is so crazy to me because even though he confessed to it, there's clear forensic data that showed something was afoot. Why else would she be searching these people a year in advance of dating him, a year in advance of the murders? It does not make any sense. And it just...

feels like a big red flag another thing that doesn't really add up as we continue to go through Nicole's interview all of the footage all the documents all these things Nicole said that she and Chris went on their very first date around her birthday which was July 7th she said that right before Father's Day Chris told her that he had kids which she apparently thought was really cute and he also told her that he was separated from his wife so she assumed he was just a single dad

However, on Father's Day, which was June 17th in 2018, well before their very first date when that whole interaction happened, according to Nicole, Shanann wrote a public tribute on her public Facebook page to Chris about Father's Day. And we know now through the data, through everything that Nicole was searching and watching her Facebook account.

So she would easily see this and know that they are in fact together and they are not separating, negating her claim that she was under the impression that they were mutually divorcing this entire time.

Today's episode of Serialistly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Now, most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yes, I know you are. While you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you are not in some kind of moving vehicle, there is something else you can be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

It's easy and you could save money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner, and more. So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what.

Multitask right now. Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

So as she's being asked these questions during this interview, Nicole starts becoming frustrated with the officer who was asking her these pointed questions. And then she actually started even talking over him, saying that she can't remember the details now.

uh... you know anything like that if you ever meet any kind of statements that you were like well that was weird uh... or why would you say that or why did he mention that generous down on online completely understand i just feel like some of this happens so long ago that i can't tell you

like the exact words of the exact conversation at the exact time and place because it's like we had a lot of conversations i mean we talked every single day so it's like i'm trying to help you guys with the stuff like the stuff that's more current i can give you guys a lot more like detail and exact times when you're asking me about something that happened six weeks ago and exactly what was said it's like i mean i'm sure i can give you a general idea but to be honest with you like to pinpoint exact words it's not going to happen

I'm not looking for exact words. Nicole also tried to say that after seeing pictures of the girls in Chris's house, that she was wondering why he wanted to give all of that up. It seemed like a beautiful life. He had these beautiful girls, this amazing life. Why would you ever want to give that up? She's like, why? Fix this. Find a way to fix this. Make it work, you know? And I was trying to push him to do it, and he seemed pretty reluctant to do it. He didn't want to.

And, um, I don't know. We were still seeing each other fairly frequently, but I kind of, like, backed away so we weren't hanging out quite as much. And we were still close, but it was just, like, I really wanted him to try. Like, I wanted to know that he tried and it didn't work, and then he moved on. Not that, you know, they both kind of tried, and then he got himself into a situation with somebody else. And I don't know...

I just thought he had a beautiful life going on and he could have made it work. That was the way I looked at it from the outside. And she says that she actually had encouraged him at one point to be with his family and to make his marriage work. And the way that she says this,

is very very disturbing to me almost like yeah we had an affair but I'm actually this really selfless person who was trying to encourage him to make his marriage work I was telling him he had such a beautiful family why not try to make that work and encouraging him to get back together and rectify things with Shanann as though she is like the martyr in this I remember when he was in North Carolina and he was like trying to patch things up with his wife and he told me he loved me and I was like

Don't say that to me. Like, please go try to fit. And I mean, and that might even be in the text too. It's like, don't, don't, like, don't say those words to me and then go try to make peace with your wife and lay in bed with another woman. But the reality in all of this is that she was extremely in Chris's life involved in a relationship so much that she actually had literally ridden in Shanann's car.

But in her mind, surely the detectives must believe that she's just this innocent bystander, right? She just happened to have sex with Chris, but she's a good person. I mean, she literally tries to act like their relationship was barely anything. Nothing. Casual. Yet her phone logs showed that they called and texted nearly every single day. But Nicole wants you to believe that she was actually trying to, like, counsel Chris to repair his marriage? Mmm.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it even gets way more obvious and gross as we continue. So next, they talked about her phone and collecting the data from that. And Nicole responded to this, again, in a very odd way. She said,

And then her dad kind of interrupts and he says, well, if you do, it's just going to reiterate everything that you've already said. Now, I do want to make note of this because, again, if you haven't followed this case closely, Nicole's dad was in that interview room with her almost the entire time. Actually, I think pretty much the entire time.

Which is not standard practice, but he had a previous relationship with the police department. There's also some allegations about his pull and his influence, which we may get into. Let me decide. But it was not the norm, and it very much came across throughout the entire interview as though he was coaching her answers, as though he was shutting certain things down.

And it just felt like not only had Chris potentially tried to protect Nicole from being implicated, but now her father was as well. Now, we already know at this point that through the 2,000 pages of discovery, we know that Nicole tried to delete as much as possible off of her phone before even going into this interview with the police.

So then when her dad said that and said, like, oh, well, it's already going to just reiterate everything that you already said if you give them your phone, right? Nicole responded, and she said, yeah, well, I mean, it's kind of a good backup. A good backup? I don't know. I don't know. Listen. He's not going to look at your phone right now. He's going to put it on a disc, and they're going to give it to me. Gotcha. I don't know. What is it?

I really want to help you guys. I do. I feel like this whole thing is just going to be crazy regardless of whether I give you my phone or not. I mean, that's kind of how I look at it. Like it's happening.

It's going to happen. Well, the text reiterates what you've been saying all along, so it's not like... All they do, that's the other thing, too. I mean, that's kind of a good backup. So after going back and forth with the detective for a while about giving them the phone so that they could go through her photo history, her text history, her call logs, all of the things...

She told the police that there's nothing else than what is on her phone and that everything is in there. Even though at this point, she had deleted so much of it already. She was trying to tell them everything that you would possibly want to know is in there, not acknowledging, oh no, I actually wiped my phone, but you can have whatever is left over of it.

Nicole also says in this interview that she didn't learn about Shanann's pregnancy until the newspaper reported it, and the news aired about Shanann missing, and Chris gave that infamous, horrific interview where he's like rocking back and forth. However, computer records from the discovery show that Nicole again frequented Shanann's Facebook page, where Shanann had not only made that public tribute to Chris for Father's Day, but she also announced her pregnancy,

And she would also post frequent updates about her family. And Nicole had all of this in her digital history. She was seeing it, but she was telling the officers as if they're stupid and wouldn't connect the dots that she didn't learn about this until the case was a media sensation.

She also said that if she had known that Shanann was pregnant, she wouldn't have been with Chris in the first place. And when she says this, the FBI agent stops her for a second to press her a little bit more into what she meant by this. Because obviously, that could be a motive for Chris. Certainly, if Nicole found out that he was expecting a baby and she was threatening to leave him, that would be a motive for Chris to...

murder his family, correct, if he wanted to be with her. But then once again, her dad steps in and he tells the officer to stop asking leading questions. I know why he lied to me. He lied to me because if I'd have known that he had a child on the way, I'd have never wasted my time with him in the first place. Like none of this would ever even occur. Like you just said, if I knew he was, his wife was pregnant, I wouldn't be in this picture. So if his wife was not pregnant and

Forgive me, but if he takes her out of the picture, you're never going to know that she was pregnant, right? What do you mean, takes her out of the picture? If he murdered her, she's out of the picture. You're never going to know if she was pregnant. If he can get away with murder...

If she's gone... Don't lead. Hypothetically. Please. Hypothetically. If she... You understand where I'm going. If you didn't know... You're leading into questions that are nothing with your... If you didn't know, though... Wait, Nick.

that she was there. Did y I'm not following you. I to answer a question that is just so, so, so weird quadruple murder investi

Nico. Her dad does not need to be there. He is not an attorney. She is not a minor. It makes no sense. And like I said, there has been a lot of discussion and speculation about her dad's ties to law enforcement. None of them have been verified, so I don't really want to go into it too much further, but I will just throw that piece of information out there. Now here is where it gets truly disturbing. In Nicole's final interview with the police on August 23rd, 2018, she said, quote,

I mean, it is what it is. I've only been working with them for four months. It is what it is. I've only been working with them for like four months. I don't want to know how well.

Now, I'm not trying to go all conspiracy nut here, I promise you guys, but if she's saying that she's only been working at Anadarko for four months, she met Chris in June. So does that mean that she actually started before that in either April or May? Because that would have had to have been the case at the time of this interview. So I'm just trying to figure out how we even reconcile that.

And also, how do you explain the deleted searches that turned out to not be typos where you were searching for Chris Watts back in August of 2017 if you didn't start working with him until April, May, or June of 2018? And also searching Shanann Watts on September 1st in 2017, months and months before you ever even met Chris. And then she searched Shanann again in January of 2018, still months before she entered a relationship with Chris.

So like I said, all of that forensic data was in the discovery and it has been pulled and it has been talked about. And the district attorney had said that the reason that they didn't investigate any further into those Google searches of Chris and his family back in 2017, they had just said like,

hey, well, we didn't get to the point in our investigation where we needed to independently verify anything because Chris confessed. He pled guilty. And they also said that they had absolutely no reason to investigate Nicole Kessinger at that point in time and that it was not a witch hunt. Not a witch hunt. Nobody's trying to make this a witch hunt. They're just trying to figure out who, in fact, was a player in this. Who is truly responsible for this? So...

If the dad does in fact have any sort of influence or ties to law enforcement, again, trying really hard not to put my tinfoil hat on right now. I'm with you. We definitely need to accelerate the case because the more law, the more it takes, the less sure that they are of

But is that perhaps why this wasn't investigated further? Because on what planet, guys, have we ever talked about a true crime case where somebody who is an accessory to a murder in one form or another is not implicated, is not gone after, is not investigated?

I don't really know what to do. I feel like if I talk to them, they're either going to try to like find some holes in my story or try to get me to like be Chris's only ally. And I don't really feel like dealing with either one of those. You better believe if there were searches and I don't know, let's talk about, okay, the Idaho four case. Let's throw that out there right now. You're telling me if there were searches in somebody else's phone about the

Brian Koberger before then, about Kaylee, about Maddie, about any of them, that people wouldn't be investigating that? That they wouldn't try to see if there was any sort of connection there?

You're trying to tell me that just because Brian now is going on trial for the murders, it's case closed. Nobody else needs to be investigated. No. And maybe that's a poor example because I do believe that Brian did act independently. That's just my belief in these murders. So maybe there is a better example I could give. But what I'm just trying to say by that is like in no case that we've ever talked about has there been clear evidence that is in the discovery that looks shady where somebody just turns a blind eye to it.

So why is that happening here? Why on earth? Especially not to mention when there is clear motive on the table. Clear motive as to why Nicole would want her boyfriend to do that so that they could be together because he did have a baby on the way. Or clear motive because she could have helped with the cover-up. I mean, it just makes no sense.

Not to mention the element of lying to the FBI. Because if you're lying to the FBI, of all people, it would usually end far differently for the vast majority of people, more than it did for Nicole Kessinger in this case. But I'm not trying to get all hung up on that, so let's move on to more red flags and even more discrepancies according to evidence that is outlined in that 2,000-page document of discovery. Because this is not the only time that she lies. Not even close, guys.

Today's episode of Serialistly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Now, most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yes, I know you are. While you're listening to me talk, you're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you are not in some kind of moving vehicle, there is something else you can be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance.

It's easy and you could save money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner, and more. So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24-7, 365 days a year, so you're protected no matter what.

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Going back to the first interview, on August 16th, Nicole said that the second day of Shanann being missing is when she decided to stop talking to Chris, saying that he was far too casual about the whole thing. She said, in fact,

I was just like, no way, I didn't even think about that. I mean, murder was not even at the top of my mind when somebody just doesn't come home for an evening, especially if they've just had some sort of heated argument. That's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first day, because I was just like, no. Like, I didn't even think about that. I mean, murder was not on the top of my mind when somebody doesn't come home for an evening, especially if they've just, like...

had some sort of like heated conversation. It's like, okay, you guys are separating, you have a heated conversation, you leave for a night. Like I didn't even think

this guy killed his wife. I mean, that like murders on something on the top of my mind when I call one of my friends for three or four hours and she doesn't answer the phone. Like that doesn't even process to me is like a real thing that is a possibility at that point. And so that's why I gave it a day. And then the second day I was talking to him, he was just like a hot mess. I could tell. And then

with like the way he was talking to me and then that's kind of when I cut him off and I stopped talking to him. But that's not true again because she did not cut him off when she says she cut him off because according to the discovery her final call with Chris was actually when she was suspected to have been listening in on a call that he had with the detectives which we're going to get into that in a bit because it is pretty freaking wild.

So as the detective is asking Nicole about the seriousness of her and Chris's relationship, Nicole says that she never had any intentions of even moving in with Chris, that it wasn't that serious to her. And she made it very, very clear to Chris all the time, apparently, that she wanted to just take things very slowly. She wanted to have separate lives until the time was right. She didn't look at it as anything more than casual.

Sure, Jan. Sure, Jan. Listen. For you and him. It was just for him and his children? Oh, yes. You had no intentions of moving in with him? I have my own spot. I still have a lease there until July. And even then, he never asked me to move in with him. And I never tried to move in with him. I mean, I told him, I mean...

I really try to take everything with this whole situation very slow. The only part that I screwed up on was the fact that he wasn't completely separated from her when him and I decided to spend time with each other. That is where I screwed up. But other than that, everything else, it was always like,

You know, you build your life. I'm going to build my life. We will intertwine them. But I am not ready to like do this. And he respected that. And I and I, I even said that. And I don't know if that might be in the text, but.

So that two words, like, Chris, like, you need space. Like, you're just getting out of a divorce. Like, personally, I think jumping into a new relationship is a little quick. It's like, I was in a relationship earlier this year, and I think this is also a little quick. And I'm like, so why don't we take our time? And I'm like, if you guys end up doing a week on, a week off with your kids, I'm like, the week you have your kids, it's a week off.

be with your children. And the week that you don't, I'm like, I don't even want to see you every day. I'm like, I think we should spend like a few days of that together. I'm like, cause I like my space and I think you need your space. I think you need your space to like develop your identity again and like get it back. Because I think he's just been like so wrapped up in this whole thing that he's got in his own life and his life that he, I mean, he doesn't remember probably what it's like to like be single or have time where it's like,

with just him sure so I was just like you know like embrace that I think it's a beautiful thing and I really try to like take it smart with all that so tell me this Nicole if it was so casual and if you wanted to live separate lives and if you weren't pushing him into a relationship or to officially leave his wife or anything like that and you didn't even want to move in with him why were you looking at wedding dresses for over two hours if you just wanted to take things slowly

Why would you Google something like, if a man would marry his mistress, if you just wanted it to be casual? And that is the next Google search that she did. After she was searching dresses for two hours and looking at wedding dresses, she looked up, will a man marry his mistress? So...

If you didn't plan on taking that next step and you just wanted to live separate lives, those searches don't really equate with that. They don't compute. Then Nicole said that she didn't even talk to Chris on the phone at all that day, on Tuesday the 14th, and she said she didn't because she was mad at him.

But, once again, that is not true. I feel like I should be on that show Maury right now. That's a lie, or you said this, that is a lie, because evidence proved that she actually talked to Chris several times in the early morning hours of the 14th, including when she was suspected to have listened in on that call with Chris and the detectives.

So clearly they weren't in this bad place as she was saying and she was trying to tell the detective she was mad at him. No, no, no, no. They were talking and they were talking multiple times a day, most likely trying to compare their stories and match points. That's just what I think. But then all the way up until it suspected that she was in fact listening in on that call with detectives. He's aware of the fact that I'm probably about to walk away from him. So I think that was like his way of like saying goodbye. So it didn't really seem strange in the context of why.

what was going on between like the him and I part of stuff. And then, um, and I kept asking him too, like, what did you do, Chris? What did you do? And he was like, I didn't do anything. And I'm like, where's your family? And like, I asked him that. I don't know if I started doing that on Tuesday or if I started doing that on Monday, but I definitely, I think it was Tuesday. Cause I don't really think it was that alarmed on Monday. And then, um,

So that was supposed to be like our final sign-off text. Then she tells the detective that she needed to bring something up to them, something that she forgot to tell them previously. She said that the night after everything unfolded, in one of their very many phone conversations in the early hours of the 14th, which she tried to say they didn't even speak...

chris apparently asked her what to do with the wedding ring that he found of shenan's and her response to chris was to pawn the ring this was literally just a day after shenan went missing she tells him to pawn shenan's wedding ring that was left behind so another thing so that was tuesday and that was it for tuesday but i forgot some stuff on monday that i didn't need to bring up to you guys so monday um

When we were on the phone at one point, he mentioned to me, I can't even believe I have to say this, she left her wedding ring here. And I said something along the lines of, does that mean you two are done? And he was like, he said, how much do you think it's worth? And I was like, remember hearing him say that and being like, what the fuck?

And I remember thinking to myself, like, I don't even want to respond to this. And so I was like, I don't know, pawn it, man. And I was just like, I was like, I pawn jewelry all the time. I was like, I pawn jewelry a few times. I was like, it's not worth shit, though. And I was like, I don't know if you really want to do that. And he's like, no, no, I think I'm going to get it appraised. It's a nice rock. And I was just like, okay. I just want to know what cruel and callous person on the planet would

would suggest 24 hours after their wife and kids go missing that he pawns the wedding ring. If she truly did think that these kids and this mother were just missing, as she said in the beginning of her interview, I thought they were just missing. The last place my mind even went to was murder. Like, I didn't even think...

This guy killed his wife. I mean, that like murders on something on the top of my mind when I call one of my friends for three or four hours and she doesn't answer the phone. Like that doesn't even process to me is like a real thing that is a possibility at that point. If that's truly what she thought and she thought that she would possibly return, why on earth would you suggest pawning it?

So which is it, Nicole? You said that murder is something that you never even thought about being a possibility and you thought that they would come back. But then if they did come back, what do you think would happen if Shanann came home and she was looking for her ring and it was gone and it had been pawned? I also want to know, was this before or after the point when she, quote, thought that his lies weren't adding up and she wanted to cut him off?

Next, she told the detectives that she contacted the police to tell them about the affair because of how weird she was feeling about Chris's behavior through all of this. She wanted to be the one to come forward, say they were having an affair, almost like she felt like, you know, Chris's behavior is being so weird. So I wanted to come to you. I wanted to tell you about the affair, kind of like Amber Frey did with the Scott Peterson case. She felt like she wanted to be helpful.

However, this isn't true either because the fact was that the police already knew about the affair. They had actually already been informed about this affair through a supervisor at Nicole's workplace, Anadarko.

In the discovery, it says that on the 15th of August, before this interview took place, at 8 a.m., CBI agent Tammy Lee received a phone call from an Anadarko regional manager. This manager informed her that they have uncovered evidence that Chris began a relationship with a co-worker around June 28th. Two hours after that call was made, at 9.50 a.m., Nicole then contacted detectives regarding her relationship with Chris Watts.

Then it says, Nicole was tipped off that the Anadarko manager had discovered the emails revealing her affair with Chris, which is why she took the initiative to contact the police, because she knew that it was going to be exposed. She didn't do this to be forthcoming like she would later suggest to the police and share the information to help the case.

And that same day that her affair was known by police, she searched for the phrase, can cops trace text messages? Also, how long do phone companies keep text messages? What's the difference between text message content and text message detail? And then she deleted those searches. I'm just going to say it, guys. I'm just going to say it. I know public image is everything sometimes.

If you've got nothing to hide, and if you're trying to be forthcoming about information about an affair to help the case and help figure out what happened to Shanann and her babies, why are you hindering the investigation on the other side of the coin by deleting your text message history? And by searching, can cops trace text messages? Can cops, do phone companies keep text messages? If you've got nothing to hide, and if you truly are trying to help, why hide and stuff?

And even more than that, why would you delete that search and the text messages that you're so worried about them tracing? Mm-mm, mm-mm, doesn't sit right with me. It's not landed for me.

Police then asked Nicole about the phone call that was 111 minutes long the night before, technically the night of the murders. It took place right before midnight, and then Shanann got home at 2 a.m., so they talked for approximately 111 minutes. And then you talked to him for a few hours on Sunday.

Did I? Are you asking me or are you telling me? I'm asking you. Oh, I was like, I don't even know. Sunday, honestly, oh, so wait a minute. That was Saturday. We're talking about Saturday. We're not talking about Sunday right now. Okay, so you're still on Saturday. Yes. Do you guys have a phone conversation when he gets home?

Nicole said that they were FaceTiming, but that she couldn't remember anything that they talked about, which I find a little bit weird because you're telling me you can't remember what you talked about with somebody in a nearly two-hour conversation just a few days earlier? Let's get to the phone call on Saturday from 9 to 11. What did you guys, or pardon me, on Sunday from 9 to 11? Yeah, we talked a few times, so...

Sunday, I think so. I need to think. I can't even think. Take a couple breaths and take a second. Sunday night, I don't even know. I don't think I was, like, concerned about anything at that point. You guys had a meal before. You knew his wife was probably coming home late that evening. Oh, you know what? I still don't remember what we talked about. I, like, honestly, like, we talk about so much random stuff. Like, it's so hard to pinpoint some of these things.

I don't remember what we talked about. I do remember that was a long phone conversation that we probably talked about all sorts of stuff. Do you know what he did Sunday during the day? Um, I don't even know what I did on Sunday during the day.

If it was two hours long, you can't remember any details of that? It was just a couple days ago, and it was a big conversation. In this interview, Nicole said that she had also been to the Watts house twice. So the detective had asked, did you guys spend most of the time at your place or always at your place? And Nicole responded to this saying, I told Mark yesterday, who's another FBI agent,

Again, one more thing I just want to say. I understand maybe even if somebody's separated not feeling entirely comfortable in the family home.

But if you did believe that they were mutually, because that's what you said, mutually divorcing, why would you feel so uncomfortable there? Why wouldn't you feel comfortable in that home? Is it because there were family photos? Which I guess that could make sense. There could be an argument for that. But could the discomfort have been more because you knew you were the mistress? I mean, obviously you were the mistress. You were Googling that you were the mistress. So where is the mutual divorce situation?

argument coming into play. You point blank googled, will a man marry his mistress? If they're mutually divorcing, you are not the mistress. Just saying. And even what she said to the police right then when she was admitting to have been in the house one or two times, that still wasn't even true. In the interview that she had the day before, which was in a public park, she said that she had never been there. Um,

So when we spent time together, I didn't really like go to his house. We would spend time at my house. So during your guys' dating time,

Did you guys spend most of the time at your place? Always. She even goes in further to this detail and like tries to bolster this claim even further by saying that the dinner that they had at the Lazy Dog Cafe was the only time that they had ever been in public together. Was there anything else? Was it just dinner? Did you go anyplace else? No, we just went to dinner. That's one of the only times I've actually ever been out in public with him.

However, the next day, after learning that they needed her cell phone records, boop, like magic, she remembered that she did go there twice. I've been to that house twice, but it was very, very brief. And later on in a written statement in September, she said that she had only been there twice, once on July 4th and once on the 14th.

But once again, as if we are thinking that she's going to stop lying, she's not. Because Maury, as Maury says, that was a lie. Because later when she was talking about her and Chris's trip to Bandamere Raceway and what they did that day, she says, and then I don't remember what we did after Bandamere. I think we just went to his house. I'm almost positive. We, um,

We did that, and then we went to Bantamere, and then I don't know what we did after Bantamere. I think we just went to the most positive, like...

Well, the dates will get you every time, Nicole, because that trip that you guys took to Bandimere was on July 21st. That would be a third day that you were there. If you are saying you were already there on the 4th and the 14th, the 21st is a third day, my friend. So going back to the timeline of the murders, Nicole has absolutely zero, zilch, nil, null, none, no alibi for the time of the murders. Nothing. She didn't clock into work until 3 p.m. that day either.

And not only did she not clock in until 3 p.m. that afternoon, but her activity while she was at work for a very short window of time was kind of sketchy, and we're going to get into that in a minute too. So let's start with the morning of the murders. A neighbor reported seeing a truck very similar to the one that Nicole owned, and the neighbor said that she saw it outside of the Watts family home.

At that same time this neighbor saw the truck, Nicole's phone pinged at a tower in Frederick, Colorado, which is where the Watts family home was. And it pinged at 6.16 a.m. But Nicole lived 25 minutes away. So why is it pinging at 6?

at 6 in the morning, the morning of the murders, near Chris's family home, when you live 25 minutes away. And you might think, okay, Annie, well, we know that phone pings might not always be accurate because a certain cell tower can coverage a large area of space. Sure.

But what's interesting is that when they FaceTimed the night before for that two-hour conversation, remember, the night before the murders or like the early morning hours of, her phone did ping near her house, not in Frederick. So if her phone is located in her home, it's pinging near her home. Makes sense. If her phone is not at her home, it wouldn't be pinging near her home, and it would be pinging wherever her phone was closest to, which happened to be a tower right next to Chris Watt's house.

So that ping happened at 6.16 a.m., and she didn't make any phone calls that day until 2.26 p.m. that afternoon.

However, her entire phone history was in the discovery. And when you analyze it, guys, it is pretty wild because you can see that every single day she makes at least one phone call per hour. She's always on her phone. There's never a gap, not in her entire history. I went back, I think, like 90 days even to just pull the data. And she never has a gap like she did on the morning of the murders from 6 a.m. to 2 p.m. without making a single phone call.

So that, along with no alibi, leads me to believe that it's because she knew that she messed up by using her phone that morning, and then she stopped for the remainder of the day until she was closer to where she lived, closer to work. Again, circumstantial, but like very clear as day. Kind of feels almost like Casey Anthony, where it's like there's not enough proof to make it concrete 100%, which yes, there is. Sorry, just my opinion. But like the writing is on the wall, right?

So she gets to her office around 2 p.m. that afternoon, and then her phone shows that the next call that she made was at 2.26 p.m., like I mentioned, which is right before she made two other calls from her office at 2.28 p.m. and 2.35 p.m., back to back. And I'm going to bring that up shortly because those calls are important.

So in addition to that, I decided to look even further into her phone records to just kind of say like, okay, could it be a fluke? Maybe it did just coincidentally ping there. Maybe it was an error. And I not only looked at her history of her phone records, but I also looked at her phone records all the way up until mid-September, over a month later, a month after the murders.

and never once did her phone ping again in that same area as it did the morning of the murders at 6 16 a.m. Which would make sense, because at that point, her relationship with Chris was donezo, he was arrested, he was pleading guilty, so she had no reason to be over near his house. And therefore, over a month later after the murders, there was not a single ping near his home in sight. The

the last one being the day of the murders. So you tell me, what are the chances of it never pinging there again if it truly was a tech error or a fluke?

It seems more likely to me that it never pinged there again because she, in fact, never went to the Watts' house again. Now, all we know about is the phone ping that morning, and she did clock out of work at 3 p.m., right after making those two phone calls from the office, one at 2.28 p.m. and the other at 2.35 p.m. Those phone calls were to her spiritual advisor, a 73-year-old man named Robert of the Ordo Templi Ordinance.

Now, one of the major features and core teachings of this organization from this spiritual leader, and the spiritual leader that she called back-to-back that day right after getting into the office, is the practice of sex magic. Now, similar to many secret societies, the membership is allegedly based on an initiation system with a series of degree ceremonies that use some sort of ritual drama.

So then after those calls are made to her spiritual advisor, she immediately leaves the Anadarko office. And that's when she went to meet her friend Jim at her apartment at approximately 3.45 p.m. Then at 5.01 p.m., Nicole calls Chris twice, but both calls go unanswered, and she deletes those calls from her phone log.

At 5:30 p.m., Chris calls her. This call also goes unanswered, but she again deletes it from her phone log.

Tell me this, if you're deleting phone calls on the day of a murder and you had no idea what was going on and you had no idea they were even missing and your phone also coincidentally pinged there that morning and then you get to work late and then you call your spiritual advisor and now you're deleting phone logs the day of the murder when you are saying that you had no idea anything was even afoot until days later, why are you deleting your phone records? Why are you pinging at his house that morning? It doesn't make any sense.

Now here's where things start to get a little suspicious for me according to the forensic data and the call logs and the history. The call history between the two of them seems as if they are trying to speak more and more in a sense of plotting and aligning stories now, now that the news has officially broken. More so than just two lovers who are innocent talking on the phone about what's going on. And here's why.

At 11.09 p.m. on the night of the murders after Shanann was reported as missing, there was a 51-minute phone call between the two of them, but then it was deleted from her phone eight minutes later. Again, why are you deleting your phone records immediately after if you have nothing to hide?

Then at 12.09 a.m., Chris calls Nicole back for another 31 minutes. Then at 1.12 a.m., Nicole calls Chris back again, and they talk for three minutes. Then at 1.51 a.m., Chris calls Nicole again, and they talk for another eight minutes. So why are they going back and forth and calling each other so much, talking to each other so much? It feels like something's off.

almost as if they're saying like, yeah, they're talking about something and then they're like, okay, yeah, let me do this real quick. Let me look at this. I'll call you right back. Hang up, call you. Let me go back and forth. Hey, here's what I'm thinking it did. Hey, I'm calling you because like, it just doesn't make sense.

Why call back and forth four or five times rather than have just one constant conversation? Something just feels off. Now here comes the absolute critical phone exchange that leads me to believe that Nicole was involved somehow or knew more than she was letting on. But first, we are going to take a quick break and hear from the remaining sponsors of today's episode.

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Paid for by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. So all of these calls are flying back and forth. Nothing's making any sense. And now comes the critical phone exchange that really does lead me to believe that Nicole is more involved than she is making it out to be.

After that exchange of phone calls, at 1.58 a.m., Chris and the detective start playing phone tag. And the detective says that every time he tried to call and connect to Chris's phone, his personal phone would have dead air on his line. So then Chris would call him back, and once again, there would be dead air. So he would call Chris back, then there would be dead air, like something wasn't connecting, like the phone call wasn't connecting. And this goes on for nearly 10 minutes.

Then Chris takes a break in calling the detective back for just one single minute and he calls Nicole in that break. Now why take a break to call Nicole when you and the detective are so clearly trying to connect and get in touch with each other? So he calls Nicole really quickly from that same phone, from his personal phone, and they talk for less than one minute. Then one minute later at 2.07 a.m. Chris calls the detective back, but this time he calls

He calls from his work phone, not his personal phone. So now, at that exact same time that he is having this conversation with the detective, at that same moment, at 2.07 a.m., Nicole calls Chris's personal phone. And remember, he was talking to the detective on his work phone. Now, that phone call lasts for 11 minutes, and it was the final call between Chris and Nicole.

So it's suspected that the dead air during the phone tag with the detective was Chris trying to add Nicole to the line as a listener, a three-way calling situation. And it just wasn't connecting, which is why they had to play phone tag and go back and forth. And then when it finally didn't connect, he's like, I'm just going to call him from my work phone. I'll put it on speaker. You call me on my personal phone and you can listen into the conversation. So he hangs up with her. Then he calls the detective from his work phone. She calls the personal phone to listen in.

Now guys, I know that this sounds wild, but the phone call log is all outlined in the discovery. I am not making any of this up. It is there in black and white. Do we know that she listened in for a fact? No. But what else could be the reason for him to have her on his personal phone simultaneously while he is talking to the detective on the work phone? How does that equate at all? And for the exact same amount of time, the same duration for both phone calls? In

In addition to the deleted calls on Nicole's phone, there were hours, hours, hours, hours worth of searches for Shanann Watts after the murders happened. And Nicole deleted all of those searches. So did she want it to look like she wrote off Chris completely and didn't care about anything pertaining to him? I mean, why delete them if you are just curious about updates and you have nothing to hide? Especially if you're trying to act like you're being so forthcoming to the police.

In addition to deleting all of the history of searches, calls, text message, all of those things, Nicole also tried to destroy her SIM card before giving her phone to the investigators.

Now, one of the biggest things through this, as if there aren't enough, but one of the biggest things that doesn't quite sit right with me in this case, is how she's trying to play both the victim and also the martyr. Now, for the victim role, she tells the police that Chris told her that he and Shanann were separated. They were in the process of divorcing, mutually divorcing. Yet, if he truly told her that, then why would she be Googling things like this?

This is a search from July 24th.

If you thought that they were in fact separating or divorcing, you certainly wouldn't be using the word affair or mistress in your searches, right? Not to mention that Father's Day post that we discussed earlier that certainly would have informed her that they were in fact not separated. Because honestly, nobody looking at Shanann's Facebook page would ever be under the impression that she was nearing the end of a mutual divorce, as Nicole claimed to believe.

Now, sure, being the other woman hardly implicates you of murder. But if you're lying about what you understood his marital status to be when there are several things to prove otherwise, you have to ask why. I mean, aside from the obvious shame in all of it. Now, in June of 2018, of course, well before the murders and right around the time that Chris started this relationship with Nicole,

Shanann and her daughters Cece and Bella flew from their home in Colorado to North Carolina so that they could spend six weeks with family. Shanann and Chris were originally from North Carolina, so both of their families were still there. They spent quite a few weeks there while Chris was just gallivanting with Nicole, and then at the end of July in 2018, Chris flew to North Carolina to meet up with his family. Now this is where the martyr role begins for Nicole.

And she tells police that she ultimately encouraged Chris to work things out with his family before he took that trip to North Carolina. And she said that he told her he was going to North Carolina to try to work on the marriage and give it another shot. So she says, I encouraged that. I said, yes, please, I'll give you space. You go work on your marriage. Let's take some time apart. And I really want you to do that.

Here's my question. If that were true, and she were really trying to give him space to work on the marriage as she's telling the detectives, why would she be Googling things like marrying your mistress, spending two hours looking at wedding dresses, and she Googled these things on August 4th and August 8th while Chris was still in North Carolina?

All while she, according to her, was trying to give him space to fix his marriage. So combining all of this with the Facebook searches dating back to 2017 of Chris, of Shanann, and Nicole then starting to work at Anadarko around April 2018, all of these things, it just seems pretty clear to me, at least, you know, in my opinion, that she did know that Chris was in fact married with a family, not separating, not divorcing.

I think she's just a total crock and she's really just trying to save herself here.

Now, speaking of North Carolina, there is another, what I believe, sinister plot that happened, but I need to backtrack a little bit to explain as we get into that. So, Chris eventually ended up telling law enforcement that he tried to first subdue Shanann through Oxycontin, and he told the police that that's what he used to try to subdue her, but they weren't ever able to establish how he obtained the Oxycontin because he was never prescribed it. And

And he told them that wherever the Oxycontin came from was a secret that he was taking to the grave, that he will never share where he got that from.

Now here's what's interesting. Call logs show, again, all in the discovery, call logs show that Nicole was once on the phone with Chris, then on the phone with a clinic, then on the phone with Chris again. And when the transcripts were pulled from that clinic that she called, it showed that she was inquiring about how much OxyContin would be safe to take and how much would cause a miscarriage.

This doesn't mean that she had anything to do with the murders, but she knew that Shanann was pregnant before the newspaper and before the interviews, whereas before, she said she had absolutely no idea until it was all over the news.

And here's where I get back into North Carolina, because it was also suspected that while in North Carolina, after Chris joined the family there, that he might have secretly tried to give Shanann that drug to induce a miscarriage, because Shanann became very, very ill one day and was complaining of severe cramps.

So one theory out there is that Nicole and Chris had hoped to induce a miscarriage so that he could then divorce her easily. And when that didn't work, then the plan was escalated. And in fact, after returning to Colorado from North Carolina on August 7th, Shanann started telling her friends that Chris has changed his mind about wanting to have a baby. And she even ended up canceling her gender reveal party.

And then when Chris came back from North Carolina, he and Nicole just picked up right where they left off. And then on August 12th, they went on that infamous date to the Lazy Dog Cafe, where then everything really blew up because Shanann saw that charge from dinner on their credit card statement, and she knew that that bill totaled more than what it would cost for just one single person's dinner.

And get this, in just like another weird Google search on Nicole's phone, before hitting the town to get something to eat on their date, Nicole spent 45 minutes Googling how to prepare for anal sex. Also, the anal sex guide, and this was in addition to looking at videos of threesomes on certain sites, and also searching double penetration. Now, do you, girl, do you all the live long day, but...

I just think it's something interesting to note. She's Googling all this before their hot date to Lazy Dog. So going through the hours and hours of interviews, the 2,000 pages of Discovery, Nicole makes so many contradictions and there are just so many red flags. So here are just a few of them that stood out to me. One, Nicole couldn't remember anything, anything, anything, anything in the interviews.

She's constantly saying she can't remember. I'm trying to help you guys with the stuff, like the stuff that's more current. I can give you guys a lot more like detail and exact times. When you're asking me about something that happened six weeks ago and exactly what was said, it's like, I mean, I'm sure I can give you a general idea. But to be honest with you, like to pinpoint exact words, it's not going to happen. I'm not. Sunday night. I don't even know.

I don't think I was like concerned about anything at that point. You guys had a meal before you knew his wife was probably coming home late that evening. Oh, um, you know what? I still don't remember what we talked about. I like, honestly, like we talked about so much random stuff. Like it's so hard to pinpoint some of these things. What did I do on Sunday? I am like drawing a blank. I'm really tired. I don't know. Can I get back to you on that?

Did you guys have any conversations on Saturday night during your meal what he might be doing on Sunday? I'm sure we did. I don't know why I'm drawing a blank because I haven't slept. Yet in her written statement, it is extremely detailed about events that she said that she couldn't remember a month earlier. And she's just telling story after story after story. I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it.

I remember, by the way, I got it. I remember what? In my head. What I needed to tell you. That first long phone call on Monday night was, I think, when he told me that. I don't think he told me that in the FaceTime text. I mean, in the FaceTime conversation. I think he told me that in the first conversation. All right. So that was why I brought that up.

So

In her first interview, she is more concerned with keeping her name out of the papers than the actual victims involved in this case. Another detail, she says that she told Chris to confront Shanann. And I told him, I said, when you're in those situations, why don't you...

I'm like, do you voice your concern about this? And one second later, she says that she didn't really interfere with their relationship. I don't try to, like, interfere with how those two interact. Another weird detail, she texted Chris to prove that he was at Survey 319 with a picture. This was because apparently she felt weird about the sheets but still never thought about murder. He was like, there's sheets at the mouth.

thinking to myself like why like you keep such a clean house like why would your kids sheets stink and like it just didn't really click did you confront him why they did you confront him why the sheets smelled or did you inquire why no no no I didn't even ask do you know his I mean

She also said that the wedding ring comment is something that made her look at Chris and kind of make her initially start freaking out, yet she's the one who made the comment about pawning it. And so I was like, I don't know, pawn it, man. And I was just like...

And then in her written statement on September 4th, she said that Chris had never said anything negative about Shanann. Yet in her interviews, she goes at great lengths describing Shanann as being materialistic, all about money, and being bossy. About that, but he just, I think he was really frustrated with the situation. He told me, he's like, you know, I feel like my paycheck goes in my bank account and I just watch it go like this. He's like, but it doesn't have to. He's like, she makes it like that.

So was he resentful for that? I don't know if he was resentful. I just think he was frustrated by the fact that they could be doing a lot better financially, and she...

From the vibe that I got, I had really bad spending habits. And you mentioned today you read something about bankruptcy. Yep. What did you read? That those guys filed bankruptcy for a lot of money. Who are those guys? That couple. Okay. In 2015. Oh, Shanann and Chris. Thanks. Filed bankruptcy in 2015. Okay.

Tells you he has a concern enough to at least express something to you that he's frustrated with the way she spends or he's upset with working so hard and never having any money and she's kind of the responsibility. She's the responsible party for spending most of the money. I pretty much got that vibe. I mean, he just told me he's like, we're house broke all the time. Yeah.

Like I said, the only financial thing he ever said is she just likes to spend money, like a lot of it. So that was just kind of the vibe that I got from that. It was a lifestyle that she liked to live, like very materialistic kind of lifestyle. Wanted to project a certain image. Yes, all the time. And he said that that was why they got that house too. It's like she wants everybody to think that we live a certain way and that we can sustain all this stuff. And he's like, and we can't.

And he told me, he's like, when I try to talk to her, he's like, she's really bossy and she usually shuts me out. And he's like, when she does that, he's like, I just let it go. And also the extent of the marriage issues that Chris had shared with her. And Nicole even said, I wouldn't put up with that.

So why would Nicole be panicked? Why would she be googling if cops were going to trace her phone, if she could delete her phone history, all of those things? A

A lot of the people feel that the detectives on this case really handled her with kid gloves all in all and just provided excuses as to why they weren't going to look further into her. And honestly, I completely agree. So now we have to talk about that footage and people suspecting that Nicole was in fact there the night of the murders and actually helped Chris. Although I want to be clear, it is just speculation.

So many people have been talking about this theory for years and as people analyze the footage from the neighbor's camera many people strongly believe that Nicole can in fact be seen in this footage. A lot of people think that you can see a woman with breasts with long hair and another photo that shows a purse on the back of this person and I'm pulling something on the screen so if you're watching the video version of this you see but for those of you who are listening to the audio go over to my YouTube channel in a couple days because the video version will be posted on there but

But if you look at the picture on the right, you can see that the person does seem to have breasts. They also seem to have long hair.

So if this is true, it would align with Nicole's phone pinging near the Watts home that morning. She's helping with the cleanup. She's helping him load the truck. She's helping do all of these things. It would also explain why she never clocked into work that morning and why she didn't have an alibi for that morning. And then she didn't use her phone for hours and hours and hours on end until she got to work at 2 or 3 p.m., made those calls to her spiritual advisor, and then dipped out of work almost as quickly as she arrived.

and went over to her friend Jim's house. So on August 19th, the day after this big police interview with all of this footage that we've been talking about,

Nicole starts to google all about Amber Frey or Amber Frey I forget how you pronounce it but she was the mistress of Scott Peterson who was also convicted of killing his wife and unborn child which in a weird little update I just read that the LA Innocence Project is now taking on Scott Peterson's case and fighting to prove that he's not guilty maybe we need to do a deep dive on that case I don't know but anyways so Nicole was googling if people hate Amber all

Also, how much money Amber made from the book deal that she got, among a lot of other things.

Now, recently, the YouTube channel Plunder received a copyright strike from D.A. Michael Rourke's wife's podcast. This was for playing a clip of him in the podcast saying that people need to just get over this case and that Nicole was not there. Now, I'm paraphrasing here, and I'll explain why in a second, but it was interesting because he was trying to say in a way of, I know so much about this case, everybody else is stupid, yet he described both Bella and Cece as having long blonde hair.

Now, personally, I really like Plunder's channel. I think everything that she does is great, and I've never seen her use something not in accordance of fair use, and I feel like this copyright strike was definitely not fair. She always puts links, she puts credits, and she's very careful. So I guess we can only speculate as to why his wife struck the video. It's completely gone now, and so is the original podcast video. So while I wish I could tell you more about what was said while speaking about Nicole on this case and all of the details,

It seems like that episode has been just absolutely, completely scrubbed from the internet. Nicole has never been charged or formally named even as a person of interest, although so many people in the public arena firmly believe that she was involved in this to some degree, especially based on everything that we have learned so far in this case. And I want to know, what is your opinion? I mean, there are so many conspiracy theories out there, but I'm really curious to know what your thoughts are.

Because I still firmly, firmly believe that at the very least, she knew that something was going to happen or that this was the plan. Because if she didn't, why else would she listen in on that phone call between him and the detective? Unless she was trying to assess what the detective knew and what he was saying. Were they both being implicated?

Why did Chris shut down, not give any other information, not share where he got the Oxycontin from because he didn't want to implicate anybody else? It doesn't make sense. Also, why would her phone ping there that morning? Why would she delete her history? Why would she lie about things? Why would she say she didn't even know Shanann's name when she really did and was Googling her a year prior?

H's doesn't make sense. Yet all of those inconsistencies, even the ones that are outlined as evidence in the discovery, are strictly circumstantial. And there is enough for reasonable doubt there, which is my belief as to why she has not been formally charged. Although others speculate it's because her dad apparently runs very deep and has a lot of influence, and that could be why. Again, another possible conspiracy theory, possibly true, who the heck really even knows.

There's obviously so much speculation any corner you look to on the internet on this case all about Nicole about her involvement and there is one more thing I wanted to bring up but I do want to be clear I have no way in verifying this comment not at all not whatsoever and this is from Reddit so please take it with a major grain of salt but there's a screenshot of a person leaving a comment on a video about this case and to me the comment seemed very detailed to where it gave it a little tiny bit of

credibility or the opportunity to ask the question if it's credible but I know people lie on the internet for way less but let me read this comment to you

It says,

This happened in 2004 or 2005. I can't remember exactly what year. It was in Aurora, Colorado. Anyway, she is entirely capable of being involved in the murders. She's a narcissist and violent.

So again, take that how you will. I just did want to bring it up and as we're talking about so many different things. I hope that you found this episode informative. I'm curious to know where you stand on this case. I try my best not to go back to Watts Island all the time, but sometimes when there's more details that surface or there's things that I feel like warrant a discussion, to me, it feels valuable to talk about it and have the conversation with you guys. So let me know what you think on this. And if you're not familiar with all

all of the crazy complex details in the Watts case we certainly can do a deep dive I have definitely not done one in a very long time just because I feel like everybody's familiar with the case and I feel like it's so saturated but you know I like to consider myself a podcaster of the people if you will so if that's what you want that is what you'll get so just let me know either through Spotify on the Q&A area or in Apple review section

All right. Thank you guys so much for tuning into another episode of Serialistly. I am signing off. Don't forget, follow along with the podcast if you're not already so that you don't miss any future episodes. And if you really, really, really appreciated the case coverage today, please take 30 seconds to leave a reading and review. It just helps the podcast algorithm. All right. Thanks so much, guys. And I will talk with you very soon. Okay. Take care. Bye. An official message from Medicare.

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