105: 22-Year-Old Seduces 15-Year-Old Boyfriend To Kill Husband
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essentially taking part in ruining the marriage that you have for less than a year by having a sexual affair with a 15, 16 year old boy. I don't know how my family and friends would feel. Do you think your family or friends would approve? Probably not. You seem unsure.

Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly.

Hey everybody, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly. It's me, your true crime bestie Annie. Let me just start by saying Happy New Year officially. I don't know what it is guys, but there's something in my gut telling me that like 2024 is going to just be everybody's year.

Fingers crossed. I'm crossing them right now. I even have my ankles crossed. Here's to hoping. I just have a really good feeling about it. I feel like 2023 was an okay year. Some good things, some bad things. I just feel like 2024 is going to be like a good year. So happy new years, guys. Is it happy new years? Happy new year. Happy new year. Why would it be plural? That makes no sense. Man, I'm already off to a bad start this year. Okay, hold on. Let me take a big drink of my water here.

All right. So the case I am talking to you guys about today is actually the first murder trial that was ever televised. And when I say that, you might be thinking, okay, great. Is this case from like the 1800s, Annie? Like how long ago was this? No, it was the 90s. But

It is like a really, really wild case. And the little factoid about it is that it was the first murder trial that was ever televised. And not only that, but this is kind of, it could be argued that this trial and this case is what essentially started Court TV.

And it's even been portrayed in different movies, ones that starred Nicole Kidman. I think one was Helen Hunt. I mean, it's a pretty large case. And you're going to understand why as we go along because it's absolutely huge.

foul and unbelievable it just blows your mind a little bit that people like this exist and that people fall for people like this which you'll understand and I and I fall I don't mean like fall in love I mean fall like they do their bidding they fall under their spell I don't know you'll you'll understand as I get there

So the facts of this case and the publicity and the media attention around it as well, it kind of almost made it like a perfect storm for different networks to see that there was a public interest in true crime and in trials.

So again, it was the first one and kind of like the starting point. And then when they saw how much media attention was around, how people were chomping at the bit to watch it, to get more information on it, that's really where the unlock was when people were like, whoa, there's a huge audience for true crime, for Dateline, 2020, the documentaries, Court TV, obviously, like I mentioned. So this really is kind of what catapulted

everything we know today as the true crime world into the true crime meta universe or whatever you would call it. And all of this is obviously way more common nowadays because we're watching trials literally daily. But back in 1991, when this case took place, it was the first of its kind. And I'm not going to lie, it is pretty crazy. So,

Let's get right into it, guys. So on May 1st, 1990, a very frantic 911 call came in to police dispatch. Yes, emergency in 4E, Miss Summerhill Condominium. There's someone stout. I don't know. A girl is hysterical in here. She just ran over her husband. He's passed out. You know why he's passed out? He's on the way. Do you know why he's passed out?

no we don't know greg smart had come home to his condo after a late night at the office a late business meeting so he turned on his lights and he started calling out for his dogs but his dog didn't come instead a stranger leaped out from behind the door grabbed him then made him get down on his knees and he killed him execution style horrific right

So when police arrived, Greg was of course pronounced dead at the scene. His wife Pamela was absolutely devastated by all of this. It was a horrific home invasion turned murder.

So police began to canvas the scene, and they noticed that some of the items in the home looked very disheveled, almost like Greg's condo was in the middle of like this huge robbery and somebody was looking for something. Somebody was digging around trying to find something specific, and then Greg came in and interrupted him. But was that the truth?

So as police began to investigate who could have possibly done this, they took a closer look at the crime scene. And it wasn't long until the red flags, they were a-wavin', guys. I mean, first of all, even though it looked like there could have been some type of burglary gone wrong, there were a few problems with that.

See, there was no sign of forced entry. There was also no sign of any type of struggle. And Greg was killed execution style, which didn't make any sort of sense to the police, right?

And not only that, but the crime scene looked staged, as though things had intentionally been taken out of place, tipped over, broken, you know, pushed off of the shelving. So things in the condo were a little bit disheveled, but not in a way that looked like an actual robbery had taken place.

And not only that, but a murder in Derry, New Hampshire was extremely unusual and almost never happened. So who would do this? Who would want Greg dead? Or who would just kill him and not even finish the robbery that they apparently were so intended on executing at this condo? None of it was making any sense.

So obviously the first person that police knew that they needed to go and ask questions to and look at was Pam. That happens in almost every single murder. You look at the spouse first, you got to rule them out. So there was no real difference here. They knew they needed to go and speak with Pam.

She was young, she was beautiful, petite, and she worked at a local school district. And to top it off, though, when they were talking with her, she had an alibi, a rock-solid alibi. She was actually at a school board meeting, and many people cooperated the fact that she was there, so there's no way that she could have been involved in this or participated in this. The

But nevertheless, police had to look into her background a little bit more because they needed to figure out if there would be even a reason that she would want her husband dead in the first place. So they had to continue their investigation, even though she had that alibi. Now let's talk about Pamela for a moment. Pam was originally from Florida, but she had moved to New Hampshire in the eighth grade.

After graduating from high school, she went to college at Florida State University. And while she was in college, she hosted her own college radio show, actually. And like most people who were young in the 80s, she was just like really into rock music. So she hosted her own radio show that was on camp or that was right off campus or on campus. I can't remember, but it was in college and she was hosting this. She loved rock. She was kind of like into the 80s, the big hair. I mean, you could probably envision it, right?

So her favorite band of all time was Van Halen. I mean, hands down. She was even known on her radio show as Maiden of Metal. I mean, a true rock girly through and through.

But despite her love for rock music, she really wasn't a huge partier, and that's something that usually came along with the rock scene. It was like heavy partying, heavy metal, heavy music, drinking, heavy hair, heavy aquanet, all of the things. But for her, she really was focusing on her grades through college. Music was just something that was a hobby for her.

So Pam met Greg in 1986, and Pam thought that Greg was like super hot, and even actually reminded her of some of the members of Van Halen. So she felt like she hit the absolute jackpot. He had this long like rock star style hair, and they actually ended up bonding through their love of heavy metal music.

So not long after meeting, they immediately hit it off, and Greg decided that he was going to move to Florida to be with Pam as she finished college. So she seemed to have it all, and Greg was just as infatuated with her as she was with him. It really seemed like they really had met their perfect match in one another.

So after Pam graduated from college, they decided to then move to New Hampshire, where both of their families still lived. Go back to their roots, go back to their hometowns. And even though Pamela was living in Florida when she and Greg met, she didn't mind moving for him, since he had done the same thing for her when he moved to Florida while she was finishing college.

Plus, Greg was planning on working for his dad's insurance company, so it really just made sense that they would go back to New Hampshire. Everything on paper said, you know, New Hampshire is obviously the move here. Our families are there. My potential job is there. That's where we should really lay down our roots. So she loved him, and her family, as I mentioned, also still lived in New Hampshire. So it was kind of just like a win-win situation, and it felt like it was going to be a great start for their future.

So they ended up getting married just a couple of years later in 1989, and then they moved into a condo that was near Greg's family. Now, as I mentioned, they both loved heavy metal and rock music, and Greg reminded her of a member of Van Halen. Well, they bonded so much over the skies that they actually ended up getting a dog together, a little shih tzu that they named Halen. So when I tell you they were fans through and through, I mean they were super fans through and through.

Before the wedding, though, Greg ended up cutting off all of his long hair because he, again, knew he planned on working for his dad and he needed to present himself in a more professional way. And he couldn't really look like this rocker forever. That wasn't going to really fly in corporate America. So they were newlyweds. They got married. They were living in marriage bliss, right?

Well, not so much. Because even though they were newlyweds and had just started their lives together, they started to have some issues in the marriage. You see, Greg had apparently had an affair, and he admitted this to Pam. And this obviously hurt her. She was devastated. He was the love of her life, and they were newlyweds, and he was having an affair already.

But despite this, Pam tried to move forward with him. She loved him. And instead, she just kind of really dove in to her work. She poured herself into her new job, which was the media director at Winnicott High School in Seabrook. She was hoping that by pouring herself into her new job, it would distract her a little bit, help her move on with everything that she and Greg had gone through, kind of get them back on track.

Plus, it was a great job for her because she felt like through that experience, her dream of one day becoming a news anchor would still be possible and would become a pretty big reality. Now, like I mentioned earlier, murders did not happen in Derry, and news coverage around the murder spread like wildfire.

And it had a lot of people in the community really on edge, wondering who could have been responsible for this. Was there a stranger lurking in the neighborhood, lurking in the shadows? And I mean, how could they not be scared by this? We can't sleep. I don't want to eat. I don't feel there's much left in my life. Didn't deserve this. All I want is the people who did this sent to jail forever.

Was there some crazed mystery robber living among their small community who was now essentially trying to get away with murder? Nothing was making any sense and everybody was on edge. So as police were continuing their investigation, something that they noticed was that Pam's demeanor just was not quite adding up. Not at all.

See, detectives said that Pam insisted on an immediate interview. And in that interview, she said, this looks like a botched burglary. The first thing I saw was the speakers off the stand. This must have been a burglary because there were speakers off the stand. It seemed kind of strange that she had keyed in on speakers missing from a stand. It seemed at the time that her focus should have been on her husband who was laying there.

I'm sorry, the speakers? That's the first thing you saw? Not your husband lying on the floor? It was a very odd response and this immediately piqued investigators' interest. Then she said to detectives, "When I walked over to the body." She didn't say, "I walked over to my husband," or something like that. And detectives thought this was really weird. She wasn't saying, "My husband." She was saying, "The body."

could this be a way of disassociating? Possibly. Or, again, was she just in shock, and was she just saying the body because she was so grief-stricken and numb to everything? Then something else that was weird is while police were processing the crime scene with the New Hampshire Major Crimes Unit, Pam would not

shut up about her dog, Halen. Would not stop talking about him. Even after it was obvious that Halen was safe, she just kept saying, I wish they would tell me about my dog. I just want to know if he's all right. Which, maybe at that point you are trying to cling to whatever safety and normalcy you can, but

But it was still something very odd to investigators because she would not let up about this dog. So police thought it was strange, but they really did try to give her the benefit of the doubt, thinking that maybe she was just in shock. However, Pam never lost her composure, not once. And it was even her idea to give an interview just one day after finding her husband's dead body. I feel like in a whole condominium complex like ours, somebody must have seen or heard something strange

Everybody's saying they didn't hear or see anything. And I keep thinking that I'll see him walk in. But every day and every second that passes, I realize that that won't happen. And yesterday, I went out to the cemetery. And that's kind of when it really hit me that he won't ever come back. You know, it's awful to just think about what happened in there. The only comfort I have is that it just seems to have been a situation where Greg didn't know what was happening.

And he just never knew, you know, and it was really quick. We usually don't like to bring animals, dogs in your interview shot. But Pam invited Halen to come over, this little fuzzy dog. And we did the whole interview with Halen sitting right there next to us. Sometimes I ask myself, I can't figure out

where the strength is coming from, but it seems like it's coming from inside. Maybe, you know, maybe it's a part of Greg that's helping me go on with everything. But this really didn't help her case either because on one hand, she seemed like this young, beautiful wife who worked at the nearby school district and was legitimately trying to help find her husband's killer. But then she started rubbing some of the reporters the wrong way.

Remember, she had this dream of becoming a news anchor, right? So she started telling these reporters that it was her dream to be on TV as a news anchor. And she would also say things like, well, do you want to get this shot of me looking off into the distance? Almost as if she was trying to produce the moment. She

She would also say, do you want to get a close-up of me crying? Or other different odd suggestions that felt like she really was trying to firsthand produce these new segments. It was very bizarre. Which, you just have to think to yourself, your husband was just murdered. Why is your priority, or large concern right now, trying to curate the perfect scene for how you're coming off on TV? Trying to capture the emotion. Trying to manufacture the emotion. ♪

Police noticed that Pam didn't seem to be very emotional when they finally got a chance to interview her just hourly. She talked about things that she couldn't have known about. It just seems to have been...

a situation where Greg didn't know what was happening. She knew critical factors about what that crime scene looked like. How could she talk about what this apartment looked like when she wasn't allowed in there? And I expected that she would be breaking down, and yet that emotion never came. Sometimes I ask myself, I can't figure out where the strength is coming from. But the weirdest part of the interview was we were talking about Greg, and...

She said something to the effect of, "If you think about it, this couldn't have happened at a better time." You know, there's no better time in his life for this to happen. And I said, "What? This couldn't have happened at a better time because if you think about it, had we been married for 20 years, I would have loved him that much more."

I couldn't wrap my mind around that. It was really weird, and police took note of it. So in one of these interviews, she speculated that the killer was likely, quote, some random person, perhaps a drug addict, looking for a quick score. Kind of like she was maybe trying to plant the seed a little bit of having some dicey people in the mix. I don't know.

But ultimately, the last straw and the one that really set off the alarm bells was two or three days later, when one detective went with Pam back to the condo to pick up some of her things. And Pam kept walking all over the blood-soaked area of the carpet where Greg's body had been, and not just one time, but repeatedly.

Which you would think in a moment like that, somebody would try to carefully avoid any area of the crime scene. Not just because you don't want to get your dead husband's blood on you and like that would be absolutely terrible.

I mean, I would be distraught by that, I think anybody would, but also you definitely don't want to jeopardize the integrity of the crime scene and contaminate anything. So the fact that she was repeatedly stepping through the singular main blood-soaked area was really throwing off a red flag to the investigators.

So finally, her mom ended up covering up the stain with a towel. But this still didn't stop Pam. She walked right over the towel, while her mom and the detectives were making it a point to, of course, walk around it like any normal person in their right mind would. But we will learn that Pam, I don't want to say had any sort of like mental illness or anything, but she was definitely not in her right mind, given some of her decision making. And we're going to get to that.

So, some of the detectives believed that she was involved, but she had that rock-solid alibi. There was no breaking that. So, there still had to be much more to this story going on if Pam truly was involved. But police were at a standstill without much to really go on. She had a rock-solid alibi. People were corroborating her story. There were witnesses that saw her there. So, what?

What was her involvement? If any, what could it possibly be? Then one day, there was an anonymous tip that came into the police, and it changed everything in this investigation, guys. You see, the caller said that they had heard that some of the boys at the high school that...

she worked at might have been involved in Greg's murder. Yes, you're hearing that right. Some of the students at the high school involved in this woman's husband's murder. And this anonymous tip also went on to say that Pam's intern, Cecilia, might know about it, might have information about it. - This is Detective Pelletier. - A young man killed a couple weeks ago. - Where at? - In his home. From what I have heard, the wife had planned it.

She said, "One that knows all about this, and her name is Cecilia Pierce." And here's another bombshell, guys. This caller also said that one of these high school boys might have been having a sexual relationship with Pam. We are going to take a quick break in today's episode to hear from our sponsors.

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Okay, so we just had talked about this anonymous tip coming in, suggesting that these high school boys were the ones responsible for murdering Greg, that one of the boys was maybe having sex with Pam. I mean, very unsettling, right? So this boy, who was he? Well, his name is Billy Flynn, and he was a 16-year-old. Now, Billy ran with a pretty tough crowd that included his friends Patrick Randall and Vance J.R. Latimer.

These three boys lived in South Seabrook, which at the time was kind of seen as like the wrong side of the track, not like the area that you would necessarily go to hang out in and kind of has a reputation. It was just a little bit more rough around the edges.

So as police started looking into the rumors to see if there was actually anything going on, they were able to quickly find out that Pam not only knew Billy, but he was one of the few students that she spent a lot of time with as the media director.

A lot of time. So as media director, she was responsible for distributing and producing educational videos to use in the school district. And she even got her own secretary and a student intern at one point. So every year in the fall, the high school offers a three-day drug prevention and self-awareness program.

Pam volunteered as one of the adult facilitators of the program, and she was really able to impress some of the students with her interest in heavy metal music. She looked cool. She looked young. She was really petite, really attractive, and I feel like I know how that goes, and I'm sure we can all recall a time in high school where we had, like, a teacher who seemed young and hip and cool, whether it was a man or a woman, and that's really what Pam was to them. She liked rock music. She liked heavy metal. She...

was young at heart and pretty young and as her age too, and this really impressed the students and kind of were looking to her as more of a friend than a true superior. Even though she was, of course, older than them, she was only 22 at the time. So,

Really, not that much older. I mean, old enough to certainly know better than having a sexual relationship with a student, but she was 22 years old. She was outgoing. She was beautiful. It was really easy for her to connect with these students because they did have a lot of shared interests.

And it turned out that one of the students that was in this program where she really hit it off with all of them was Billy. And Billy thought Pam was absolutely a bombshell. And like I mentioned, she was so well liked by the students as a whole, not just Billy. And in this weird turn, Pam apparently also thought that Billy was attractive, thought he was cute. This young 16-year-old little kid. I mean,

bizarre and gross. I never will understand the dynamics between teacher students in that way, but whatever. I digress. That's a conversation for a different day. So she looked at Billy and thought that he looked just like Van Halen. And remember, she actually thought her husband Greg looked like Van Halen. So apparently this chick just like really, really is like chomping at the bit for anybody looking like Van Halen.

So she ended up showing Billy pictures of her and Eddie Van Halen, because she was the ultimate fangirl, remember? She even had a license plate that said Halen. So police believe that this was how Pam got Billy to like her, since she was already this really attractive younger teacher, and Van Halen was apparently his favorite band as well. And it worked. They hit it off. They had this, like, magnetic connection, apparently. So

So Billy was immediately attracted to Pam. Again, 22 years old. And they had these similar interests. They were really bonding over the music aspect of it too. And for him, receiving a compliment from her that he looks like Van Halen, one of his absolute favorite idols, that went a long way with him. He was like really into this.

So he started visiting her more and more, going directly to her office, sometimes alone, sometimes with friends, and one of the friends that he would go to the office with was a 15-year-old girl named Cecilia Pierce. And you might be remembering that name, Cecilia, because I did mention it earlier. Cecilia became Pam's student intern in the media services office. So in spite of the fact that Cecilia was actually seven years younger than Pam, they ended up forming this really close relationship.

They were working together, so they obviously had a very close working relationship, but at one point it became too close, too friendly, because they actually were considering each other each other's best friends, which it's like, okay, you need to go back to school and learn boundaries. If you're thinking a 16-year-old is hot, and now you're thinking that this other 15-year-old girl is your best friend, it's time to...

I mean, see the light, my friend. This is alarming for a variety of reasons, right? So Cecilia, though, was very impressed by this because she had this older woman, this teacher, this, you know, adult who wanted to befriend her, who wanted to be close with her. And she's like, wow, I fit in with the adults. There must be something about me specifically, my personality. Maybe I'm an old soul. And like, she really dug this. She was super into her friendship with Pam.

And Cecilia never had a friend like Pam either, someone who was this intelligent, beautiful, self-assured woman. Remember, in high school, especially at 15, 16 years old, it's usually girls who are super insecure, catty, and that was the polar opposite of Pam, and Cecilia was really drawn to this. Pam made Cecilia just feel important, just being in her presence, being with her.

Pam paid for everything when they went out, and when Cecilia also began to learn to drive, Pam would always let her drive her car. So Pam, Billy, and Cecilia were like this tripod together, and they started hanging out together outside of school as well. They would go to the mall, to restaurants, to arcades, I mean, you name it. So at this point, the dots were starting to connect, and police knew that they needed to talk to Cecilia.

So when they did, she actually folded pretty quickly, which, again, isn't surprising for a teenage girl. And then you're being questioned by police, by authority. So Cecilia ended up admitting to them, yeah, Billy and Pam are having a sexual relationship. What kind of a relationship do you have with Pam? We were close. She was kind of like a big sister. They were friends, and then they were having an affair.

And not only did she admit that, but Cecilia said that Pam not only knew about Greg's murder, but that she had asked Billy to kill him for her so that they could be together.

So this was absolutely fantastic for police. Their case was now broken wide open. The problem was they still needed proof. They couldn't just take this teenage girl's word for it, right? And remember, Pam had a rock solid alibi. So they asked Cecilia to wear a wire and she agreed to it. And

And sure enough, Pam sung like a canary. I think that's the expression. And so much information was caught on that wiretap. Pretty much, they established that, yeah, you had great guilt. Why, though? Like, you know, I don't know. Because they can't think of any other reason why Bill and them would do it.

Right.

So on this wire, Pam was heard saying, if this fucking comes out, I will be in the fucking slammer for the rest of my life. And she also said, I'll admit to the affair, but not to the murder.

Okay, now get this because this part in this case actually makes me kind of laugh, not because the circumstances of this case are at all funny, but this particular conversation because in my mind I can just envision it playing out. So they get all the wiretaps, they get Cecilia's information, all this stuff. And then on August 1st, 1990, the detective approaches Pam in her school's parking lot and

And she's taken by surprise, and she asks the detective, hey, what's up? And he replies, I have good news, and I have bad news. The good news is, we believe we know who murdered your husband. The bad news is you're under arrest. And so Pam said, for what? And he goes, murder.

I mean, I can only imagine how that conversation went down, but I love that. We got good news and we got bad news. The good news is we found the murderer. The bad news is it's you, bitch. You're under arrest. The line that came to mind on the way over was the good news is we saw the murder of your husband. And the bad news is you're under arrest. I mean, what a just complete moron. Did you have anything to do with your husband's murder?

So not only Billy, but Billy and three of his friends were also arrested in connection for the murder. And unfortunately for Pam, all of these teenagers spoke to the police, and they all made plea agreements for second-degree murder charges. They confessed to their roles in the murder, and they implicated her sorry ass in the process. Because again, you shouldn't trust anybody ever, but you definitely shouldn't trust teenagers.

So the boys were talking with police, and they said that Pam asked them to kill Greg for her. So they also agreed with this plea agreement to testify against Pam, who still, by the way, was maintaining her innocence in all of this, and just completely denied any involvement in the affair, in the murder, in any of it.

- So Peter was the one that shot him? - No, Pete said he held his head. - Did he say how he held his head? - No, he just said he held it and built a little trigger. - Anything else about it? - This was, we get some insurance money or something. This is just what they said from Pam, 500 or something. - $500, is that what Pam was paying them? - That's what they said she was gonna pay. - And you're talking about Pam, who's Pam?

The guy's husband's wife. Okay. P.M. Smart. So you can imagine that the facts of this case, the attractive young teacher accused of murdering her husband, and then this news of a secret love affair with a teenage student, it just went wild in the media. This was super scandalous, super salacious, and the public was glued to this case.

It seemed like something that really would only happen in a movie or a TV show, a lifetime movie, but this was real life and people could not get enough of it. So since Pam was pleading not guilty, her trial would likely have major news coverage. But what actually happened was even bigger than anybody could have imagined. You see, the judge in the case allowed cameras for the news broadcasting, making it the absolute first murder case to ever be televised.

So not only was everybody already glued to the newspapers, to the TV, looking for updates in this case, but now the trial is going to be televised because the judge granted cameras in the courtroom. So everybody was tuning into this.

During the trial, the prosecution argued that Pam's motive for the murder was her desire to eliminate her husband because she was unhappy in their marriage, she feared that she would lose everything in the divorce, and she would be able to collect on a $140,000 life insurance policy. I mean, a pretty sick motive, right? You've got money on there, you don't want to lose everything, she's unhappy, he already had admitted to having an affair in their marriage in the past, like...

You got motive every single which way you can cut this pie. So they believed that Pam was obviously the seductress in the entire scheme as well. They believed that she was using her sex appeal to manipulate her teenage lover into killing her husband. And also they believed that she was the sole person responsible for initiating, orchestrating, and directing the murder of her husband, all with the help of her then 16-year-old lover.

But people were wondering, how on earth did she convince him? Did she simply just ask him and he obeyed? What really happened and what took place behind the scenes? Well, I'm going to tell you.

So it started in the fall of 1989 when Pam and Greg moved to that condo in Derry. So as the media director for the school, her office was across from the high school. Billy at the time was only 15 years old, and he was a sophomore when they met, and Pam was 22. So this was when she met Billy, and then that's when she also became very close friends, overly close friends, with her intern Cecilia.

Then, during the late fall/early winter, Pam decided that she wanted to enter an Orange Juice video commercial contest. Yes, that's right, apparently that was a thing. An Orange Juice video commercial contest. So, she asked Billy, Cecilia, and a couple more students to help her. They all agreed, and so they all spent time together either after school or even during the weekends working on this project.

Then, a few months later, in February of 1991, Pam asked Billy, Do you ever think about me when I'm not around? Because I think about you all the time.

So after telling 15-year-old Billy that she thinks about him all the time, Pam went on to describe her marriage to Greg as lousy, unhappy, miserable, telling Billy that Greg had cheated on her before, and that they didn't get along, that he was mean to her, and she even went as far as to show him bruises that were supposedly from when Greg had hit her. Again,

Who knows what truth really is there, but she was definitely trying to bait and hook this 15-year-old kid. So Billy was surprised by all of this, and honestly, he didn't really know if Pam was being serious at all. But secretly, Billy was almost thrilled that Pam was interested in him, that she was expressing this. It was, I mean, it would be enticing for any teenage boy. You have this hot older woman telling you she can't stop thinking about you. You're so much better than her husband. I think it would make any younger boy kind of like,

peacock a little bit and be like, wow, I'm the shit, you know? And that's really how Billy felt. Meet Pam Smart, and she's beautiful, she's intelligent, you know, she's an adult, and, um,

She likes me. So the very next day, Pam told Billy that she was dead serious about everything that she had told him and that she meant every single word. She told him that she would get a divorce, but that the only problem with that is that Greg would never leave her alone for the rest of her life.

She also said that she would lose her condo, her dog, and even her furniture. So Billy was absolutely enthralled that this attractive young teacher would be interested in him. So shortly after this admission, this disclosure of her, like, pining for him, their relationship started to progress, and it progressed emotionally and then physically.

and they even started sending each other secret love letters. Then one weekend, when Greg was out of town for work, Billy came to the condo, and he actually spent the night at their condo with Pam. Pam and Billy went upstairs into her bedroom, while Cecilia was also at the condo, and she was just downstairs playing with the dog, like a third wheel, but again, remember, Pam's new best friend. I mean, the whole thing is just bizarre.

So as Pam and Billy were upstairs in the master bedroom, she apparently put on this really beautiful turquoise lingerie that she bought for this special occasion of hers. And then she turned on, get this, some Van Halen music because you know for her that's what's really going to set the mood. And then she had sex with Billy for the very first time.

However, after that weekend, while driving him back to his mom's house, which, let me just say that again, okay, you just had sex with this 15-year-old boy and now you're driving him home to his mom's house? It is sick, sick, sick. So after that weekend that he stayed with her, they had their first sexual encounter, she's driving him back to his mom's house. And Pam tells Billy that she can't see him anymore, that Greg was getting suspicious of her working late, and it was better that they just end things now before either one of them get their heart broken.

So Pam, once again, goes to the radio and she turned on a song by Van Halen. The same exact song that played when they had sex for the first time. Almost as though she was kind of like trying to remind him of that experience and like do some sort of like brain control. Like, I'm going to tell you we can't be together while playing this same song that sparks a memory of when we were having sex.

I don't know, it's so bizarre. But anyways, she turns this song on and she says to him, "Last night was great, but we can't keep on like that." So then Billy, of course, replies, "Why not? He doesn't understand." And she says, "Because of Greg. If you want to keep seeing me, you'll have to get rid of my husband." And that was it. She baited him, hooked him, and now she was reeling him in to ask him for what she really wanted.

So Pam reiterated to Billy that the only solution was to kill Greg. And now Billy, this impressionable teenager, was in way, way, way, way, way over his head. And he realized that maybe he would have to kill Greg if he still wanted to be with Pam. Maybe that was the only way to the happy ending that he wanted with her.

Now you might be thinking in this moment, Annie, why are you even talking like this? He was a minor. This was grooming and sexually taking advantage of a minor. And I do totally agree with you on that, but this is how the prosecution was presenting the case back then. So I'm reiterating how they were teeing the entire thing up. Now what's even crazier is this was like one of the very first public instances of a teacher having an inappropriate relationship with her student.

And so much so, it was so brand new and brand new territory, that what's even crazier in all of this is that Pam wasn't even charged with having sex with a 16-year-old kid at all. And she was more so just painted in the media as this slut who seduced this teen who had this huge mega huge crush on her, rather than painted as the predator that she actually was. I mean, it's absolutely bizarre.

And the media coverage that surrounded the case really was playing in to this whole "hot teacher" angle. And since Pam and Billy both really loved Van Halen, they also frequently correlated their relationship with the Van Halen song "Hot for Teacher." I mean, it was like media gold. You cannot make these things up.

So during their argument, the prosecution said that Billy was a virgin. But then in interviews, Pam had said that he definitely wasn't a virgin. And apparently when the prosecution said in court that he was a virgin, it was the first time that she had ever heard that.

The prosecution said that Billy would have done anything for Pam, including murder. But he told Pam that he didn't have a car and that he didn't have a gun. And at that point, she then said, okay, well, if you don't have any of that, you need to ask your friends. You need to ask them for help.

And that's exactly what he did. So he went to his two friends, Vance and Patrick, and he told them about his plan. During the trial, Billy testified and told his version of events as well. And he said that on one occasion, Pam actually screamed at him, "'If you loved me, you would do this.'"

And Billy said that he did love her, saying, "'That's when I started actually getting really serious about it, because I thought that if I do something like not go up or anything else again, then she's gonna leave me, and that's gonna be it. So this time, I really started talking to J.R. and Patrick about it. I really started taking this whole thing seriously, because I thought I was gonna lose her.'"

So then Pam apparently told Billy that May 1st would be his absolute last chance to get this plan done, because apparently Greg had these very late appointments that night. She had her busy school board meeting, so she had a rock-solid alibi. So it was now or never. And to really sweeten the deal, Pam even agreed to pay Billy and his friends some of the money from the insurance money that she would be collecting once Greg was dead.

So during his testimony, Billy also went into the very gruesome details of just exactly how this murder happened. Billy says that he grabbed Greg, that Patrick also helped grab Greg, and then they pulled him inside the condo. So then at that point, once he was inside the condo, they made Greg get on his knees.

Greg started pleading with the boys, saying, what do you want? What do you need? I'll give you anything. What is it that you want? And the boys were just responding back by saying, shut up, shut up, shut up. So Greg was still on his knees at that point, and Patrick held a knife to Greg's throat while grabbing him by the hair. So Billy looked at Patrick, who then nodded his head yes at Billy. And then Billy executed Greg with a .38 caliber, and he shot him in the head at close range.

And what were your feelings towards her at this time? I thought she was attractive. She seemed like the honest person. I liked talking to her. We had a lot of fun. I was like, "Well," she said, "First she asked me if I ever thought about her when she wasn't around." And I said, "Yeah." She said, "Well, because I think about you all the time." You know, she told me how she felt about me and I felt the same way. And was there any music involved?

Oh yeah, black and blue. I'm sorry go ahead. I saw her from down here on the black and blue. Did she dance with you? Yes she did. And what was she wearing when she danced with you? The outfit that she picked up. What happened after that? We had sex. Like that? You mean intercourse? Yeah, intercourse. And where in the room were you making love? Where in the room? Like everywhere? Oh yeah, like where? Like on the bed, on the floor. Anywhere else besides those two places?

No. No. And where was the studio during this time? It was the studios downstairs watching other movies, certainly. And had you ever made love in that movie before? No, I hadn't. That was the first time? Yes, it was. That what you told Pam? No, no, I wasn't. What did you tell Pam? I told Pam that it wasn't the first time. You said you had sex with other women before? Yeah. Now, what about birth control?

- How do you know? - I didn't see him take it before. - You didn't see him take it before that day? - Yeah, before. No, not before that day, no thanks, but that day and times after that. - So that's something you were eventually doing? - Yeah. - Now besides the dance routine that you got from 9 1/2 weeks, anything else happen that you got from 9 1/2 weeks? - No. Yeah.

When we were upstairs, one time I went downstairs into the freezer and got a glass of ice out of the freezer. I got upstairs. Why'd you do that? Well, to use it on this, to use it on the body when we were upstairs. What gave you that idea? It was a nine and a half weeks. Can you just briefly describe the scene you were seeing?

Just, um, what was going on? I just told him to shut up.

Pete said anything to him? Once he was down on his knees, but I don't remember what that was. You don't remember what Pete said to him? No. What happened next? Well, he was kneeling there and it was... Then what happened? I cocked the hammer back and I pointed the gun at his head. After you pointed the gun at his head, what did you do? I just stood there. How long was it?

a hundred years it seemed like. And I said, "God forgive me." - You said, "God forgive me." What happened? - I pulled the trigger.

Cecilia also testified at the trial, and the jury heard all of those secretly recorded tapes from when Cecilia wore the wire. And again, it showed a lot of Pam's true character and what the truth was in this case. And these tapes became a huge problem for Pam.

Cecilia also testified about a telephone conversation that she overheard where she said, Pam was saying something about getting a divorce, and then they started fighting over who was going to take the dog, who was going to take the furniture, and everything else. And then she said, fine, take the dog and hung up.

Now, Pam also testified at her trial, and her defense focused on casting doubt on her involvement in the murder of her husband altogether, while acknowledging, though, that she was in fact having an affair with her teenage student, Billy Flynn. So they pointed to the lack of physical evidence, and they argued that there were no fingerprints, no DNA, and no other forensic evidence that tied her to the crime scene or to the murder weapon.

They also claimed that the testimonies of the teenage boys that were involved in the murder, particularly Billy's, were coerced by law enforcement. They argued that the boys were pressured into incriminating Pam, all in exchange for reduced sentences. Pamela Ann Smart. You were born with the name Smart. No, I was not. How did you get the name Smart? I was married in May of 1989 to Greg Smart. Why did you marry Greg Smart?

Because I loved him. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. I said because I loved him and I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. He was really kind and gentle and he was fun to be around. I believe he came over to my office and I had told him that I had known he had liked me.

and that I thought he was really nice and that I liked him too, but that I was married and that I was not interested in having a relationship with him. He was surprised that I had liked him, but he didn't really say anything. He just kind of sat there. February 5th. No, I told him I didn't like him. Excuse me? Yes, I did.

What happened between this February 5th and when you told them you couldn't have an affair at that point in time? What changed? My feelings. Describe it. Well, I didn't set out to have an affair with him, but I did. And in February, I believe it was February 27th or something, it was during February vacation also, while I was over at his house, we were working on the video, we were in his room, and he kissed me. Play it off.

Excuse me? Did you fight him off? No. Tell us what happened. He kissed you? He kissed me and then I went home. Then when he was over, you would have sex with him? Yes. Did you have sex with him when he came over? Yes. Did you watch that movie Nine and a Half Weeks? Yes. Did you make love to him? Yes. Did you do the thing with the ice cubes? No. I think he's having a problem remembering where reality began and the movie stopped. What was his name?

Asking me questions about the police and if they had any leads and were they, had they found any evidence or things like that. And he kept going on about that. And that was the first time it ever came across my mind. Could he have done this? Yes, I did. I said, you didn't have anything to do with this, did you?

He said, no, I was crazy. That he thought I must be losing my mind. That he couldn't believe that I would even ask him that. And that I should go to a psychiatrist. That's what he said. He was mad. He was mad. He was mad. Did you accept his denial at this point? Yes. Yes, I did. I felt bad afterwards that I had accused him of that. Now, in the spring of 1990, you had gotten a divorce from Greg Smart.

The affair might have become public, right? If I had gotten a divorce? Yeah. If I made it public, I suppose. Or if Greg made it public? Yeah. And if your affair had become public, what do you think would have happened at Woodacott High School? Or, I'm sorry, at SAU 21, where you were?

I would assume that I wouldn't be working there anymore. You lost your job, right? Probably. And how do you think it would affect your opportunity to look for additional jobs in school districts, knowing that you had an affair with a 15-, 16-year-old boy? I doubt that I would apply to another school district, but that wouldn't mean that I couldn't get a job anywhere else ever. Do you think this would have helped or hurt your professional reputation at that time? Hurt.

How do you think your family and friends would think about you essentially taking part in ruining the marriage that you had for less than a year by having a sexual affair with a 15, 16-year-old boy? I don't know how my family and friends would feel. Do you think your family or friends would approve? Probably not. You seem unsure.

I mean, I don't think that they would stop being my friends and never talk to me again, but... No, the question was whether or not they approve, and you said probably not. Do you have any doubt in your mind that they would look upon this as quite inappropriate behavior for you? Well, I'm not the first person in America that ever had an affair. But that wasn't my question. My question was, don't you think they would look at you and say this is quite inappropriate behavior? Yes.

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They continued stressing that she had an alibi, that she was in a complete other town when the murder occurred, and they said that the motive for $140,000 life insurance was definitely not strong enough to drive her to murder Greg. They also kind of doubled down on her innocence by saying that that intern, Cecilia, had her own motives for cooperating with the police.

They suggested that Cecilia might have fabricated or distorted some of the conversations so that she could secure an immunity deal, and that she also had sold her story rights for $100,000. And they also started to then plant doubt with other people, saying that there might have been other people who had motives to kill Greg, saying that he might have been involved in some illegal activities or some other personal disputes. Who knows? But my client is not responsible for this.

So the jury deliberated for 13 hours before they came back with their verdict. And I'll give you a guess on what that verdict was. Guilty. Pam was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, while Billy, Patrick, Vance, and JR received much, much, much lighter sentences.

Billy, who physically pulled the trigger, was only sentenced to 40 years to life, with the option to reduce his sentence by 12 years with good behavior. And the other accomplices got lighter sentences and have now been released from prison as well. Now, it wasn't just smooth sailing for Pam since the guilty verdict and her sentence, because while in prison in 1996, Pam was brutally attacked by two other inmates.

her injuries included a fractured nose and a broken eye socket which she later had to get a metal plate actually implanted in the left side of her face because of this the two inmates apparently beat her up after they accused her of snitching on them about their prison relationship but then where you just when you might be thinking you feel a little bit bad for pam because she got jumped in prison and has a metal plate in her head things changed because then in 2013 pictures of pam posing in prison

wearing lingerie, were sold to the National Enquirer.

Like, what the actual fuck? Apparently, Pam filed a complaint against the prison authorities, and as a result, she ended up in solitary confinement for two months. But Pam claimed that the prison guard who sold the photos had raped her and coerced her into posing for those pictures that way, all in an effort to make her look bad. Pam's also done many, many interviews since she has been convicted, and she still maintains her innocence, her innocence in all of it.

She has also admitted that she knew at the time that it was wrong to have a sexual relationship with Billy, but at the time, and this is a quote according to her, it was one of those things that you know is wrong, but you keep doing it anyway. You were technically an adult and he was underage. Absolutely. That relationship...

Seems predatory. It was totally wrong. It was actually very difficult because I had feelings for my husband. I loved him and I also had developed feelings for Bill. And I knew that I couldn't continue like this. It wasn't going to work like this forever. It was only a short relationship. She has also tried many, many times to get her sentence reduced or given the option of parole, but she hasn't been successful in any of those attempts.

and earlier this year, her appeal was rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court, leaving her with no more legal options at this point at all. Now, a lot of people felt like it was unfair for Pam to have received life in prison without the possibility of parole, while her co-conspirators got much lighter sentences.

There's also been a lot of media attention on the fact that because her case got so wild in the media and it was seen as so scandalous, so salacious, that it might have made it impossible for her to get a fair trial. And maybe so. I don't know. What do you think? My name is Pamela Smart. I've been incarcerated for 29 years of a life without parole sentence.

I have been portrayed as Black Widow, Ice Princess, a killer, and none of those things could be further from the truth. She was cast as the seductress, turned murderous mastermind, caught in the middle of a media firestorm,

Guilty or not guilty of defense charge? Guilty. Pamela Smart, convicted of conspiracy to murder her husband in 1991 at the young age of 23, sentenced to life in prison without parole for manipulating her teenage lover, Billy Flynn, into pulling the trigger. Her original defense team wanted a change of venue, which the judge denied, and they felt like the judge was actually using this trial to get his 15 minutes of fame. But what's crazy is

is there and i mean i guess not crazy depending on what you think but there are also some people who truly believe that pam is completely innocent in all of this

And I'm wondering, what do you think? Where do you stand on that? Do you think that Billy took it upon himself to kill Greg because he wanted Pam all to himself? Now nearly three decades into her prison sentence, she still maintains her innocence. Did you mastermind the murder against your husband? Absolutely not. No. And argues that whether or not you believe she's guilty, her sentence of life without parole has robbed her of any chance at freedom.

even as the admitted trigger man is no longer in prison. I'm not asking the world to relitigate my case and to judge whether you think I'm innocent or guilty. I'm asking if this is the kind of justice that people want in America. So did you come in thinking that 28 years later you'd still be here? Absolutely not. After I'd been sentenced,

I still had hope that it would be overturned on appeal. I never felt like this was really going to be forever. And if somebody would have told me, you know, you'll be doing this for 20, 30 years or something, I would have thought that I could never have survived. Many of the people who have petitioned for you would be described as feminists. Do you consider your cause to be a feminist cause? I don't know if I would just...

you know, characterize it as feminist, period. I think that for a lot of people the fact that the media latched onto this case and made it so sensational was really because I was a woman on trial. And that's a totally different experience than being a man on trial. If this story were a made-for-TV movie, and it surely will be, you might not believe it.

I definitely didn't have a fair trial. I mean, my trial was completely infected by the media. Every day when I went into court, they would describe what I was wearing, how my hair was, what I looked like. It would never just say, Pamela Smart came to court today. Why did you have a good trial?

Because I loved him. People, and to an extent, I guess we have to say the jury, believe that you manipulated a young man through your sexual wiles. And that he became obsessed with you and that he killed for you. I pulled the trigger. I understand that you say that you didn't plan this murder. What if somebody said to you,

If you would admit to being guilty of what you were convicted of, you could have your son introduced and eventually leave prison and not have to spend your whole life here. How would you respond to that? I've thought about that over many, many years. And, you know, there were times when I said,

I would never do that because, you know, I'm not guilty and I'm not going to plead guilty to something that I didn't do. And then there were other times when I felt like I don't care if they say I tried to kill President Trump at this point, just let me out of here, you know. But right now that's not just not an option anyhow. Or do you think that Pam was the mastermind behind this plot to kill her husband so that she could live happily ever after with her 16-year-old teenage lover?

I mean, make it make sense, right? This one was definitely a doozy, guys, and the reason I wanted to talk about it isn't just because it was the first murder trial that was televised and because it is such a crazy-ass story, but I feel like every time I open my computer lately, there is another situation like this. Not necessarily resulting in murder, but a female teacher somehow seducing and taking advantage of her male student.

I don't know if I've been living under a rock the past decade or what. I knew that things like this were going on in the school district. To be honest, though, although I know a lot of the times women are the assaulter, it's what I've been exposed to has been primarily men, but not to say that it's not even. But I definitely have seen a huge shift in the last few months of women being the predator in this. And it's just so bizarre to me.

Not that women can't be predators, because I think that's a very, very naive and ignorant way of thinking. They absolutely can. But I don't know. There's just something inherently weird to where I feel like, in my mind at least, I was always kind of programmed to think that it was way more common that men would be the predators in the school system because they would be turned on by the hot young girl, that she would have this youthfulness about her, this innocence and purity. But I guess that still could go for boys, right?

Maybe I just have a hard time reconciling in my mind because I, in no world, would view a 15-year-old boy as hot and be sexually attracted to them. But maybe that's because everything in my brain is normal. I don't know. Let me know what you guys think. I just feel like I've seen a complete uptick in these cases lately. And as a parent, it is really nerve-wracking. And it's just freaking disgusting. Like, I'm going to get a little grotesque for a moment. But, like, you're a chick. Just, like...

go home to your man or get a young boyfriend but one who's of age get a sex toy if you want like figure your shit out but like to prey on your young students who are still forming their brain and forming into an adult mind like it is just sick and there is no excuse for it sorry I went off on a little bit of a ramp I will end it now but anyways thank you guys for tuning into this episode let me know what you guys think

it was definitely a wild one. All right, guys, and before you go, don't forget to snag all of those amazing deals from today's sponsors. I put all of the links in the show notes below. You can get free breakfast for life with HelloFresh, get massive, massive luxury items at Esteele with Quince, get your new razor on with Athena Club, and also sleep like a princess baby with Beam.

Again, happy, happy new year. Wishing you all an amazing 2024. And I will be back with you on the mic very soon. And I have some really, really exciting guests coming up this month. So if you are not following the podcast yet, make sure you go to whatever podcast app you have. Apple, iHeart, Spotify. Find the podcast. It's called Seriously. Hit the button that says checkmark following or whatever you have to do. That way you do not miss it because I promise you...

You are not going to want to miss it, guys. All right. I am signing off. Have a great rest of your day, and I will talk with you very soon. Bye. An official message from Medicare.

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Our podcast brings all the ghosts to the yard, and hopefully it brings you too. Tune in to Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. It's the most haunted podcast in America. Very spooky.