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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.
Previously on Number One Dad...
- Watching him maneuver, that was where I thought the sort of mentoring came in. Even though it's not exactly how I would go about things. - Some of the locations he would take me to, and he'd have me wearing like this shirt that said AT&T and it had the logo on it. Not knowing that you can't do that. You can't just use a company's logo. - There's no doubt in my mind that Manny could have been anything he wanted. - I got a call from him one day saying, "This has been a bad week."
He had been getting notices, I believe, from AT&T, which are basically stop and desist orders. Then on October 17th, 1994, I woke up at six in the morning to someone pounding on our front door. The next thing I knew, our house was being raided by the U.S. Marshals. Do you remember talking to my dad after the U.S. Marshals raided our house?
I remember him saying that, oh, this one is bad. They came over, they took pretty much everything from his office. Files, computers, boxes, to be used in a legal case against him. AT&T, following the proper legal route, had gotten a court order. And because he had refused who knows how many cease and desist orders, a judge okayed that to happen.
I remember they came in and my dad made me come down the stairs in a hat that had AT&T on it. And he told me to say this. He goes, where are you taking my daddy's stuff? So that's something that I had to say as a 10-year-old. I'm relieved that he didn't have you say, yes, I'm Manny Veeder. How can I help you? Yeah, it's my fault. I'm sorry, guys. I was there that morning. I was like just sitting in the basement like...
And he was just like, "Stay here." I'm like, "Really?" He's like, "Yeah, don't leave." The marshals came and they started, you know, packing things up, putting it into boxes. I felt, you know, sad for him because I knew he had to face the man on this.
And we were like still worried, like, oh my goodness, are we going to be in trouble too? One day I got a phone call from Rich, who was with Manny in the basement, and the marshals came storming in. And that became our little season of legalese. We would be prepping for deposition because Rich and I were part of this. You know, we're clearly witnesses and involved.
Not surprisingly, the raid came up in my last therapy session. Gary, how did you feel when you saw the federal agents coming in to raid your home?
I mean, it might sound weird, but I remember not being worried at all. My dad always felt like he could get out of any situation. So I didn't think that he would be in trouble. If anything, I thought that the people that were coming to the house, the cops, that they were in the wrong. So I was just taking it as like, these guys are screwing up and my dad's going to be able to get out of whatever problem this is and that it's their fault that this happened.
And then I just left for school. This is Number One Dad. So what's the latest, Gary, in tracking down your father? Well, I went and saw my child at home from the outside, and I'm not exactly sure if he lives there. All I saw was a kid's bicycle and one of those little kid radio flyer wagons and
And I checked the mailbox. It was empty. I have no idea if that's his home or not. So I'm kind of in a position where at one point I was scared to talk to him, but now I don't even know if I'm going to get the chance. Thank you.
- Hi, how's it going? - Good, how are you? - Good. So I know this is like a weird question, but I was wondering if you could help. So I have a number from my father who I haven't spoken to in like 20, 40 years, and I'm not sure if it's his phone number. - Okay. - And I was wondering if there's a way to like look it up to see if it's his number. 'Cause I tried calling and like got disconnected, so I'm not sure if it's like his number.
It's a landline. Okay. So as far as like the landline numbers, the only thing that I can do with those is we can pay a bill. If you're not the account holder, I can't give any information about the bill, like as to who the account holder is or anything else about it. So no, I guess. Just for like security purposes. Okay. So I wouldn't be able to tell you the name of it.
You said when you called it, it didn't... Well, so what happened was I called the number and then an automated message picked up. But it sounds like a robotic automated message, so it's not like my dad's voice. And then I'm leaving a message and then it just got cut off halfway through the message. Okay. So I don't know if it was received. Okay. What's actually, I think, with a landline? Hold on. What's the phone number? So it's 631...
- What's his name? - Manny Veeder. - I mean, that's the number that is showing on here. - Uh-huh. - That's associated with him. So... - Got it. - This was last updated in 2020, though, so... - Yeah.
While trying to figure out my next move in tracking my father down, I caught up with my cousin Mason. Manny was smart. He never went to law school, but he learned the court system. My father's years of legal battles in court prepared him to go up against one of the biggest companies in the world, AT&T. He seemed to understand that the longer you delay any legal work, push off court dates, push off everything you possibly can, the more exhausted people get.
And the more likely that something will be dismissed or the punishment will be less severe. My dad's employees at the time were Rich Petrick and Mark Palmieri, and they found themselves right in the middle of my father's problems. I remember going to court with him. The courthouse in Manhattan was always funny because we had to go there a couple of times. He was confident when he got in there and he didn't care at all.
He was familiar with these court run-ins, and he would go in and ask for an extension or a delay where some people weren't happy for something and they felt lied to. And it was always this kind of petty-sounding complaint, like something wasn't returned, something was broken, maybe he was dishonest, you know, whatever. But it was not that big a deal. But the AT&T lawyers were a little scary. They were fired up, and they were saying some crazy stuff that we had never seen. ♪
Good morning. Calling the case of AT&T Corp versus Manny Veeder. My father's trial began November 7th, 1994 on Long Island. The voices you're about to hear are actors, but the words were all recorded by a court stenographer. Good morning, Your Honor.
The defendant, Manny Veeder, is engaged in a continuing scheme of passing themselves off as an AT&T personnel, using counterfeit AT&T logos in order to install pay telephones at local retail stores and to foist the defendant's version of pay telephone service on the public. The defendant has used various aliases, including Manny Wolf, Mark Wolf, M. Wolfman, Milton Wolfman, Menachem Veeder, among others.
The scheme has been so successful that the defendant has acquired over 200 customers in a few years span. I don't know if I still have it, like a sweatshirt that was from Manny. Like he had these blue sweatshirts printed up and it had a little AT&T logo on it. And we would wear them. And it was like, you know, we were just absolutely representing that we were AT&T. When you start this thing and you're working for somebody, you don't know like what's going on. You know, 20 years old, naive, you don't know like...
Mr. Burke? This case is not about counterfeiting. While the defendant has used plaintiff's trademarks, a practice which immediately terminated by the defendant after receiving notice of this action,
Mr. Veeder took affirmative steps to avoid confusion between his company and plaintiff AT&T. Mr. Burke, I do have a check here, which I believe is September 9th. Is it...
I'm looking at Exhibit B. Your Honor, if you look at that check, you'll see that it states that Payphone Plus is a provider of AT&T service. And it says that AT&T, the right choice of trademarks of American Telephone and Telegraph.
I think what I'm saying to you, however, Mr. Burke, is why does the check have the logo of the globe on it? Your Honor, these checks are no longer in use. We have new checks. Yes, indeed, there is a dispute as to whether... But the point is that it was used, I believe, after the temporary restraining order, wasn't it?
We discovered that he never ceased and desisted, and in fact expanded his network, even using checks as recently as two weeks ago after the order telling him not to say AT&T. At this point in the trial, the court entered a preliminary injunction as a result of the items discovered at the seizure when my house was raided by the U.S. Marshals. My father was ordered to immediately stop identifying himself as a representative of AT&T.
But things were also just getting started. The AT&T lawyers were trying to turn my father's life upside down. They subpoenaed my mom, my uncle, and my grandparents. Anyone they could get to mess with my dad. But if you make things difficult for him, he's going to make it twice as difficult for you. Mr. Veeder has been talking to witnesses and telling them of different dates for depositions so that after we subpoena someone for a date, we call them to confirm they're coming and they say, "Oh, Mr. Veeder told us it's a different day."
In addition, Mr. Palmieri testified yesterday that Mr. Veeder spoke to him when they heard he was being subpoenaed and told him if he avoids the subpoena, he doesn't have to come. So both Rich and I did eventually, we had to give testimony. The AT&T lawyers were literally making faces. They hated Manny. It looked like they wanted to kill him. Snarling, sneering, you know, these leering, threatening eyes and slurring.
you know, twists of the lips and just like, almost like they want to spit at him or spit their tongue out at him. Do you remember how my dad was responding to the AT&T lawyers?
They distinctly remember Manny just looking back at them with a small smile, with a toughness, a charm, even like dog tough, man. There was something street right there about that he had in him that was not backing down. You know, they've said that Manny deliberately damaged other AT&T phones that were in the area so that people would use his. The lawyers for AT&T brought up Manny's criminal past.
Some of which was news to me. Defendant Veeder impersonated a New York telephone company employee by wearing a hard hat with a Nitell logo, stole two Nitell telephone enclosures, and had in his possession Nitell traffic cones, and was prosecuted for a Class E felony in connection with such stolen property in Suffolk County, resulting in criminal conviction.
Defendant Veeder is also the subject of a proceeding brought by the Attorney General of the state of New York arising out of consumer complaints of fraud in excess of $100,000. Back in 1969, this was the hottest song around. So hot that some guys from Michigan tried to steal it. My name is Daniel Ralston.
For 10 years, I've been obsessed with one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. A group would have a hit record, and quickly they would hire a bunch of guys to go out and be the group. People were being cheated on several levels. After years of searching, we bring you The True Story of the Fake Zombies. I was like blown away. These guys are not going to get away with it. Listen to The True Story of the Fake Zombies on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm in the Monroe estate and I just caught a murderer.
Yes, I'll hold. Featuring the star-studded talents of Michael Urie, Jonathan Freeman, Douglas Sills, Cheyenne Jackson, Robin de Jesus, Frankie Grande, Sean Patrick Doyle, Brad Oscar, Nathan Lee Graham, Seth Rudetsky, Leah Delaria, Lea Salonga, and Kate McKinnon as Angela Lansfairy. Lick them, lick those toesies. Yeah.
Listen to Does This Murder Make Me Look Gay as part of the Outspoken Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's something different about the conversations we have late at night. They often spin off in strange and wonderful directions. So we asked, what if those laid-back conversations were with some of the biggest musicians in the world and some of the most interesting new artists we love right now? I mean,
Midnight Chats has already welcomed Tame Impala, Charlie XCX, Mark Ronson, Vince Staples and many others. Our biggest and best series is happening right now. So join me, Greg Cochran, and me, Stuart Stubbs, as we talk to our favourite musicians about the things they don't usually talk about. I'm feeling more okay with being a diva. There was one birthday when I went to a graveyard.
Every partner that I've ever had, when they look at my texts with my mother are like, how are you sharing this information? Listen to the new series of Midnight Chats every Tuesday night on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Between my father's criminal past and the insurmountable amount of evidence against him, things did not look good. But his lawyer began saying that the entire seizure at my house was unlawful and never should have happened. If he could prove it, it would get the case thrown out. They had no basis to seek a seizure order. A seizure order is reserved for counterfeiters. This case has no counterfeit goods.
They knew that Mr. Veeder had been purchasing equipment directly from AT&T for many years. The law is very clear. I'm very familiar with it. Unfortunately for my father, the judge found the seizure to be completely compliant with the law and declared all the evidence admissible. Meanwhile, the whole time this trial was going on, my father's payphone business, Payphone Plus, was still operational.
He was running all over New York, installing payphones and making collections. One of the places he had business was at a mobbed-up strip club in Regal Park, Queens, named Wiggles. These are made mafia guys, and every time we would enter, Manny was greeted warmly. He would hang out. They would catch up. They would talk. They would joke. It made me uncomfortable. The owner, there was like this owner guy, and he was real, he was just like sketchy.
That sketchy owner was Vinnie Palermo, also known as Vinnie Ocean, who at the time was the boss of the New Jersey Decavalcanti crime family. It's said that Vinnie was the inspiration for Tony Soprano.
In 1999, Vinnie Palermo became a government witness after confessing to two murders and implicating several decavocante family members of various crimes. He's currently in the Witness Protection Program, living under an assumed name.
Manny had said that those guys had offered to find the lawyers for AT&T and put them in their fridge, their walk-in fridge, and Manny had turned them down. And so as we're talking, you know, we're laughing, but also like, oh my God, something bad's going to happen. This is dangerous. And he went on to say that they have like an eternal devotion to him because they're
One time he was putting in a payphone plus payphone in one of their establishments and that he found taps. He found that they were actually being spied on in their office. And he was able to take those out and also inform them that they were wiretaps. And so he's like a hero in this circle. Knowing my father, he put those wiretaps in the phone himself and then told those guys he found them. That's exactly how his brain works.
Meanwhile, around the same time, the AT&T lawyers started to complain to the judge about getting harassed outside of the courtroom.
There has been harassment of counsel in the manner of hang-up type phone calls, the still pictures he took of me, because somebody was stalking me when I was in a supermarket having nothing to do with this case. This is all part and parcel, we believe, of the defendant's tactic, which started with removing the valve of my tire. From the word go, they continue to hurl accusations at Mr. Veeder without a single response.
shred of evidence. Mr. Burke, as I tell some criminal defendants when they are before me, sometimes the suspicion keeps growing and growing about an activity of somebody and harassment of witnesses or obstruction.
Your Honor, you're drawing an analogy between the defendant who's had his house invaded and a bunch of other baseless... I am tired of hearing that as an excuse for your client's alleged conduct. If he didn't do it, then there's no need to make an excuse, is there? There is no excuse. Good.
It wasn't only my father who was playing dirty, so were the AT&T lawyers. They began talking to his customers, making sure they all knew he was a fraud. I've been informed that certain customers, due to contacts from AT&T, are just shutting down Mr. Veeder's phones. They're putting out-of-order signs on them.
They would love to drag this case out for a few more months because by then, Mr. Veeder will probably be out of business. Your Honor, he doesn't abide by his own agreement and he does not listen to the court order. Things were getting pretty serious for my father and he was hoping to gain some leniency. I know this because inside the massive stack of court documents, I found the letter he sent to the judge.
Dear Judge Platt, I write this letter to you on behalf of my wife Sherry and myself, Manny Veeder. Since the onslaught of this case, which began to unfold in your courtroom in October 1994, our lives have been turned inside out, not by chance, but by the design of one of America's largest corporations. Their actions have taken an extreme financial, mental, and physical toll on my family as well as myself.
To date, we have spent $20,000 defending this suit. The money has been borrowed to pay our attorneys in hope of a speedy resolution. But our combined family income for the year was less than $55,000. I have to support a family of five.
My attorney has advised me that he would like me to release him at this point from this litigation because I have not been able to borrow or come up with any additional money at this time to continue to pay for legal costs. Chief Judge Platt, I must see you as soon as possible. It is of the utmost urgency that you are made aware of certain pressures that are being put to us by certain parties. Signed, Manny Veeder.
Did you talk with my dad while the trial was going on specifically about the things they took during the raid? I said, you know where it went or something to that effect. We were talking about I'm sure they have it in some warehouse somewhere. They're going through the files. I think he mentioned, though, they took all sorts of sports memorabilia, which I guess had to have been related because the timing is right.
for, I believe, your fake Sports Illustrated kids reporter. Yeah, it was the exact same time we were pretending to work for Sports Illustrated for kids that the marshals raided our house. Right. So when your dad was sharing that this happened, I could tell that he was kind of taken aback. I think he truly was sorry, not necessarily about what he'd done, but how far he'd carried it. Because I think he saw that there was
real potential for significant either financial loss or criminal charges. But I could tell he was vulnerable at the time.
That's right.
Mysteriously, a large amount of evidence that was seized from my house and was set to be used against my father in court went missing. During the overnight period, it is my understanding that some of this material disappeared? That is correct, Your Honor. Mr. Veeder broke into the secured AT&T facility and stole 20 boxes of documents. Mr. Veeder denies any involvement in the alleged theft. Your Honor, this is another baseless allegation.
This alleged theft took place at a secured AT&T facility surrounded by gates, guarded by armed security personnel 24 hours a day, and is monitored by security cameras. Hmm, must have looked like a real Hollywood scene. I think it's very fitting after the Academy Awards last night.
Amazingly enough, on this day, March 28th, 1995, as my dad sat in court being accused of masterminding a break-in to steal evidence compiled against him, is also the same day he and I would be going to Madison Square Garden to meet Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan! That's 55. He had to work for the...
Let me take it one step further. I think AT&T's violation of the seizure order is so egregious here that I'm going to have to order an immediate return of everything. Everything that was seized.
This was huge. What the judge said was regardless of how the evidence went missing, AT&T mishandled it when it was in their possession. So because someone broke into the evidence locker, the judge ruled all the remaining evidence to be inadmissible and had to be returned to my father.
which essentially meant the prosecution now had nothing to go on. So the judge ordered that AT&T's entire case be dropped. If you had to guess how that evidence became missing, would you put it past him? I can tell you with 80% certainty you took it. Yeah, it's one of those things where it's not out of the ordinary for him to figure out a way to get himself out of a situation.
I mean, he drove a Caprice, an undercover cop car. He always was very familiar with the police department. It's a hard thing to speculate if he was involved in it, but it was just a very good piece of luck for him that they couldn't bring the case forward because the stuff was missing. And now there was, from what he told me, a countersuit that he had initiated.
That's right. Manny could have said, "I won. This is over. I can now go on with my life." But that's not my father's style. Instead, he filed a countersuit against AT&T for failing to keep a detailed inventory of the items seized. My father claimed he was now missing World War II medals belonging to my grandfather and an autograph collection belonging to me.
Now, I don't know about those medals, but as for those autographs, I know for a fact that was a lie. Because all the sports memorabilia was kept in my bedroom. And everything was still there. In the end, regardless of what was true or not, on April 18, 1995, AT&T settled the countersuit with my father for an undisclosed amount. So in one way, my father won.
but he also lost. Because his battle in court with AT&T was the breaking point for my family, especially me. After years of sneaking into games at MSG, dodging calls from furniture customers he'd ripped off, wrecking competitors' payphones, I had enough. Every interaction with my father was wrapped up in schemes and lies, and I was done. The last time I saw him, I was 15. My parents were separated, and he'd come to one of my hockey games with my dog, Kobe.
I asked when I could have my dog back and he said, "When your mother gives me what I need in the divorce." That was 24 years ago. It's the last time I saw my dog or my father.
Do you know where he lives or where you think he lives? No idea where he lives. I don't have a phone number, an email address, and I haven't even been tempted to Google him. What do you think my dad's reaction would be to me reaching out? Honestly, your dad would welcome your reaching out, but it's my bias that's telling you this. It's my bias as a father.
saying that, "I know things have been bad. I know I've screwed up. I wish I could somewhat get things back." If he were to reach out, he could respond in any number of ways. He might feel vindicated and then slam the door. Say, "Ha, he finally realized what a good guy I was, but no interest any longer." Or he might say, "Hmm, this is an opportunity for me. What I can see is that he used to love taking you to games.
Now, how he got you to those games might have been different than how you'll take Sullivan to see NHL games or NBA games or go to the mayor's mansion. But the joy that you're going to have with Sullivan is the joy he had with you. This is your story, and you're going to have to decide what the next path is, what the direction you're going to take is. On the next episode of Number One Dad... In 1,000 feet, turn right onto Darlington Avenue...
I am on my way to Long Island once again. And the reason is because it's been two weeks since I started this thing. And I still haven't heard back from my dad after leaving a message on what may or may not be his answering machine. I guess you could add that to the 24 years he and I haven't spoken. So using my best judgment, I've decided I'm going to do a stakeout of my child at home.
Number One Dad is a production of Radio Point, Big Money Players Network, and iHeart Podcast. Created and hosted by Gary Veeder. Executive producers are Gary Veeder, Adam Lowett, Alex Bach, Daniel Powell, Houston Snyder, Kenneth Slotnick, and Brian Stern.
Written by Gary Veeder and Adam Lowit. Produced by Bernie Kaminsky. Co-producer is Taylor Kowalski. Edited and mixed by Ian Sorrentino at Little Bear Audio. Recording engineer is Kat Iosa. Original music by Andrew Gross. Special thanks to Charlotte DeAnda. Jonathan Karsh is creative consultant. Executive producers for Big Money Players Network and iHeart Podcast are Will Farrell, Hans Sani, and Olivia Aguilar.
Sound services were provided by Great City Post.
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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
