My Husband Cheated . . . Should I Tell the Kids?
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Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. Me and my husband, we've been married for nine years now. Four years into our marriage, he did have a thought of infidelity. We came across some pictures of when we were separated and the boys asked me, why aren't you in these pictures? And I told them, oh, you were with just your dad. From that day on, I've had that question of, do I ever say more?

What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. We're talking about your mental and emotional health and your relationships and whatever else you got going on in your life.

So grateful for you tuning in, listening, making this one of the top podcasts and YouTube channels on the planet. And I'm so grateful for those who are brave and willing to just open up in front of everybody in the club and talk about what's going on. Those who call into the show and are willing to talk about their lives in public.

If you want to sit with me and we can figure out what the next right step for you is, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291. It's 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask, A-S-K. All right, let's go out to Houston, home of the Astros. Not to be confused with the almost last place Rangers. What's up, Candace?

I'm doing great. How are you doing today? I'm good. What's going on in your world? Well, just having mom guilt and wondering how much to overshare, undershare with my children as they get older. No. All right. Tell me more. Okay. So me and my husband, we've been married for nine years now, but five years ago, four years into our marriage, he did have a spot of infidelity. And of course I found out. Hold on. A what? A what of infidelity? Yeah.

He had infidelity on his part, I found out. Okay, but you said it was a what of infidelity? Like a speck? Is that what you said? I called it a spout. A spout. It was one incident. One incident. Just a little spout. Just a little whoopsie-do. Minor lapse in judgment, you know. Okay, so he had a bad evening five years ago, and y'all decided to stay together and work it out?

We did. We went to marriage counseling. We have done so much therapizing on our own. Okay. And our marriage is fantastic now. Okay. And I heard a show not too long ago of yours where a woman said that she's in the same room as her husband. They're going to touch. And that's me and my husband. So, like, we're great now. Okay. But, you know, my children, as they get older, they're going to have relationships. Okay.

We came across some pictures of when we were separated and the boys asked me, why aren't you in these pictures? And I told them, oh, you were with just your dad. And we just needed some time apart right then. And that's all I said. And I moved on. And then from that day on, I've had that question of, do I ever say more? You know, when they're having a hard time and they're divorced or whatever relationship later on, do I ever say more? How old are they now?

Well, now they're definitely not the age. They are eight, six. And then the ones that were not around at the time are two and three. Okay. So very, very, very young. Okay. Okay. And this is not their cross to bear. And I understand that. Sure. I do not want to be like, you're that. And their daddy is their hero. Yeah. And I don't want to tank that. Can I ask you a hard question? Mm-hmm. Okay.

Your marriage is still together in large part because of the work your husband did, but also in large part because you chose to stay and you've done a ton of work too. Fair? Yes. Yes. A ton. Okay. This is a hard question to ask you, but it's on some days. Do you look out upon your family? Maybe look out in the yard and your husband's playing with those four boys and you just want to stand up at like on the steps of your home and yell like, Hey, I need credit for this.

No, because he gives it to me. Okay. He does. So your choice to tell them isn't... Why would you tell them? Let me ask you that. Because it is what a lot of our relationship is... Not what it's built on, but the trust and the openness that came of it. I didn't know all that stuff going into marriage. And I wonder, how do I tell them those things

lessons, I guess, without divulging too much and destroying their image of their parents that are very, very happily married now. Sure. I guess it would depend on the context and I guess it would depend on the questions they're asking. And in many ways, I think it's a joint story to tell. Yeah. And

I would, you're right. I would wait till they're adults. I don't see any reason to bring it up now. Okay. And let's say they're 17 or 16 and somebody, and they're dating somebody and they get cheated on and it breaks their heart. You can say things like, I was cheated on too. And I know what that feels like. Oh, you were? And you'd be like, I don't want to talk about the details of it, but I've had a broken heart too.

Um, there's ways to slowly have that conversation and there's ways that honestly, um, if y'all ever choose to tell the story in public, like at a local church or y'all would say to like write a blog about it, you'll need to address it with them first. They don't hear about it secondhand. Um, as I'm sitting here thinking about it and I've never had this thought before, but in a way I almost feel like it's your husband's story to tell them.

I felt that way also because when we were going through it, part of his therapy was to write things down. You know, it's hard for men to say things out loud. Yeah. And he wrote it in the point of view of like telling our kids. And he wrote a letter apologizing to them even, and he still has that. And will he ever give that to them? I have no idea. But yeah, in a big way, I do feel like if it was going to be said, it would be.

be his thing to tell. Yeah. And it might become a point when they're 25 and 26 and somebody's breaking up with getting, you know, their marriage is on the rocks like all young marriages are. And you might tell them, hey, I'm going to

sit with my hurting kids and or child and let them know I've been there too. And this is your story to tell. Um, hopefully he's a man of character and we'll walk alongside his sons and his daughters and say, here's what happened. And they'll have this many X number of years to, to show what healing looks like. Yes. Right. Um, yeah, this just came up. Is it sitting on you for some reason right now? Or did it just happen to pop into your head and you just thought you'd call?

We were flipping through those pictures about a week ago, and that was the first time I've ever came close to having to say there was a time that me and your dad weren't together. And you did spend a weekend with him alone, and I was not there. How long were you all apart? We were separated for a little over a month. Okay. And he did...

everything that a man should do that did something like that. He did everything that he was supposed to do to get me back and to prove everything. That's cool. Or I would not be here. Yeah. Well, and, um, did he talk to him? To the kids when they looked at the pictures? Uh-huh.

He was not there. He was at work. I told him about it when he got home and we just moved on. Okay. So obviously I've been thinking about it, but I told him, you know, we were going to talk today and he told me it's a question he's often wondered himself. So he was curious to know what you'd say. Yeah. Um, I'm trying to think, um, my son's 14 and we are just now entering into a season when he's asking bigger questions and harder questions and,

And I don't think it's appropriate. If I had that in my background, it would not be appropriate for me to tell him now. It would be appropriate for me to say, hey, buddy, I've messed things up big time. And I had to go do X, Y, and Z. Well, what do you mean mess up? I had some core convictions that when you get older, I'll tell you about.

But I can't imagine sitting down and laying that on a child while they, yeah, that's a lot for them to carry. And I do not want to do that. I know, of course, of course. They do not want to change their image of their dad. Well, it's not, they need to know their dad's not perfect. Oh, no. You know what I mean? And does he ask for forgiveness? Does he say, I'm sorry, things like that already?

Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, five years in, he still makes every effort. That's cool. I want y'all to be very careful about what you just said, image protection. Okay. Because that will destroy your kids. They need to know mom and dad are fallible. Mom and dad aren't perfect. And both mom and dad love each other sideways and forwards and backwards. And I...

I think then as the stories come out, there'll be disappointment. There will be heartbreak. There'll be, I can't believe that. But there never will have been an image to prop up.

Yeah. And I don't want to tell them to be like, oh, we're a survival story. Exactly. I do not want that. Yeah. But, you know, we are not a perfect relationship, but a lot of our friends watching us go through our relationship and seeing how he did and how their people did it do, you know, it showed them that, you know, what,

Should happen. Not saying that we did everything right, but showing them what effort looks like. Candace, can I just tell you, it's okay to say, no, we did everything right. We did everything right as we knew to do it after something like that. As best we could. Yeah, and I want you to not downplay that because you beat the odds, and y'all not only beat the odds, y'all...

rebuilt something. Sounds like it's stronger. Sounds like it is more united and it's a testament to like, this is what legacy change looks like. Yeah. Right. And we always say that we, we suck. It sucks that it happened, but we're so glad that it did because it brought out trust and complete vulnerability in us and that,

I didn't know that marriage took so much work. I don't think any of us do. Otherwise, we wouldn't do it. But also, I hear that sentiment so often behind closed doors. Yeah. I wouldn't change anything. And it was the worst time of our life.

And it's hard to explain that because then someone's going to be like, oh, should I just go cheat? No, of course not. No. But it's also hard to admit. But it's hard to admit. Like, we are simply here because something really tough happened. Mm-hmm. So, again, this is so dependent on the reason the question would ever – I mean, the story would ever come out, who's telling what and how.

the age of the kids, the maturity. There's some 18-year-olds that could hear this just fine. There's some 17-year-olds that could probably hear this just fine. And there are some 23-year-olds that, geez, man, it'd be a zoo. So I think it's just going to be context dependent, but I think that's something we would hold off for for a long time. But I do want to be very careful about any sort of like image protection or any sort of, look at how great everybody is. At the same time,

It's important for my wife to say to my son especially, but to my daughter also, hey, your dad just did X, Y, and Z. I want y'all to see that because that's what a good man does. And I want...

I do the same thing with my kids when I point out something great my wife did. And yesterday happened. Yesterday I was with my son, and my wife called, and I said, hey, can you do X, Y, and Z? I'm in the middle of another crazy diet, and this is real important to me for the evening. And she called when I was almost to the house, and she's like, hey, I didn't do that thing. Or I did it, but I didn't check. Anyway.

And my son could see it on me. And he said, what's wrong? What did mom just say? And I told him, hey, I asked for this thing and she wasn't able to make it happen. I'm disappointed. But then he got to also see me walk in the door and treat her with respect and kindness and dignity and to then make do with what I had in front of me. And so he got to see, oh, you get disappointed sometimes. Then you could do the next right thing. You don't throw a temper tantrum. You don't yell and scream. You don't curse your wife, whatever. So I think it's important for our kids to see the good stuff and the tough stuff.

and to always humanize this. But never tell your kids because you want them to be like, wow, mom or dad is amazing. And never tell your kids about things you've done in the past because you feel bad and you want them to carry it with you. You're ashamed or you feel guilty and like, I need to bring my kids along. But if your story in the past can be a guide for your kids or a way to connect,

I think it can be incredibly important. And I think always sparing the gory details when possible. They don't need to know the ins and outs, no pun intended. They don't need to know the gory, gory details. The kids don't need that image of their parents in their minds. But letting your kids know on a number of different issues. No, I've been there. Mom and dad have been there.

can we sit with you um that can be a gift sometimes thank you so much for the call candace much much appreciated have a great week and um congrats to you and your husband for

experiencing one of the worst things that can happen to a couple and then decide, okay, we're going to rebuild and him going first. Kudos to that dude. I'm proud of him, man. And continuing to create a new marriage that y'all are proud of, that give y'all peace and hope and that let your kids see that reconciliation is real and a good marriage is worth fighting for. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

So my wife and I were meeting the other day about the back-to-school madness that is about to be on us. We've got my travel schedule, her work schedule, our daughter's new school and clothes and forms to fill out and all these online portals and my son's sports schedule and he's got to have shoes every two weeks because his feet won't stop growing and how are we going to pay for all this and on and on and on.

And when we step back and look at our schedule, it's so packed and we haven't even put in the things like exercise, date nights, counseling appointments, church and holiday trips and big home projects. And these are the things that make life worth living. And I listened to y'all. This is your life too. And here's what I've learned. When it comes to taking care of me, my family and my work, I have to begin with the things that matter most and the things that keep me well and whole so I can wade into the chaos and be sturdy and present and strong.

you too. So as you're planning your upcoming end of summer and fall plans, make sure you don't skip date nights, don't skip regular exercise, and don't skip your regular therapy appointments. Yes, therapy can be hard work, but can also help make the rest of your life possible.

When it comes to therapy, I want you to consider calling the team at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy staffed with licensed therapists. It's convenient, it's flexible, and it's suited to fit your schedule.

With a good therapist, you can learn things like positive coping skills, how to set boundaries, how to deal with all the chaos going on in your life, and how to be the best version of yourself. In this upcoming season, make sure you put on your oxygen mask first. Never skip therapy day. Call my friends at BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash deloney today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash deloney.

All right, let's go to Huntsville, Alabama, right down the road from Nashville and talk to Sarah. Hey, Sarah, what's up? Hey, it's a Monday and who doesn't love Mondays? I don't. I don't think Garfield does. Anyway, I love Mondays. I'm happy to be here. What's up? Hey, so, you know, I've recently been just struggling, I guess, with this little tiny little black box I get to hold in my hand. Kelly's heart?

Basically. What is it? What's the little tiny black box? It's my phone. And, you know, there's so much entertainment. There's so much I can look at. There's so much I can, I mean, there's never going to, things aren't going to run out for me to look at. And you know what? I'm getting tired of it. And I want to spend more time, more quality time with my husband, my little baby and with things, doing things that matter. So what's your question?

So I've tried multiple times in years past and, you know, just basically social media, obviously, is the big thing where, you know, I've deleted the apps. I went without it for several months at a time, several days at a time, several weeks at a time. I was still on it so forth. But I feel like as soon as I allow myself to get back in, I just, it feels like a vacuum. Like I just get stuck back in. And before I know it, I'm spending hours

and hours on end, and it's not fulfilling. - What are you using the phone to avoid? - Oh, that's a good question. - I think entertainment is secondary. The flashy lights and the social media, that's secondary. What are you using it to avoid? - I haven't thought about that. I honestly feel like I've got an amazing life. - You don't, 'cause you're hiding from it. - That could be true. - Tell me about your marriage. Does your husband use his phone all the time too?

Yes, he does. We're both, we're both on it. Um, y'all just sit by each other on the couch, just two inches apart and 2000 miles away from each other. Yep. That, that sums it up. How old, how old are your kids? Uh, we have one baby and she's six, six months. Okay. Were y'all on the phones before she came along? Yes, we were. Um, I would say it's gotten worse. Um,

I will say we both are very intentional when we are spending time with her, like playing with her. We put the phones away. We try to not be distracted by that when we're playing with her. Can I tell you that's even more concerning to me? Really? Yeah. You know why? Why is that? Because that tells me when there's a relationship that you care about or that you're highly invested in, you can. And that tells me underneath this relationship with this new baby, your marriage is in trouble.

Really? Yeah. And I say in trouble, it's not catastrophic, but it does tell me that probably for a season now, like when people put their phones away, here's what they do. They delete their apps. They say, they make some arbitrary, like my phone doesn't leave my bag. And this is what I, my phone doesn't leave my bag. Or when I get home, the phone goes in a drawer or whatever. And that's cool. What they don't backfill that space with is,

So me and my husband or me and my wife are going to make out a lot or we're going to go for a long walk. Or when I walk in the door at six o'clock, we're going to eat dinner together and we're both going to do the dishes. And then we are going to put the kid, the kid down for a 45 minute nap. And we're going to go sing karaoke. Like you got to backfill that space with something. And most people don't. And you're forced to deal with the elephant in the room, which is,

In your own home, in your own marriage, you're bored to death. Or maybe y'all don't find each other attractive anymore. Or you don't like each other as much as you thought you were going to or as you once did. Or it's this quiet life of desperation as the plane is just slowly landing in neutral, right?

And so you go back to the flashy thing, to the funny thing, to the silly thing. And if it hasn't happened already, this is when somebody at work texts you a funny emoji and you text them back. Then they text you back. They text you back. And now you're back and forth with somebody that you're not married to. Right.

Or you have a nine-month pregnancy and then you get further and further apart there because it's hard to talk about pregnancy and I don't know how to discuss and what to disclose and this is weird and this is awkward and yada, yada, yada. And suddenly you look up and it's been a year and a half now in your home. And, phew, man, there can be some hard stuff to deal with there. Mm-hmm. How does that sound?

I mean, I haven't really thought of it in that depth. I've been wanting to... I guess I should say I kind of... I might have seen this coming far, far off, and I'm wanting to nip it in the bud before it goes off the rails. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I guess I sometimes feel like I might not even have the tools I need in...

expressing what I need to my husband, which sounds silly. It's not silly at all. It's not silly at all. It's hard and it's scary. And it's hard and scary for him too. I can't imagine Alabama men, that's rude, Tennessee men, Texas men, men in general aren't told, hey man, here's how to sit down and be honest and vulnerable and open with your wife. Here's how to show that tenderness side. You're told just to suck it up and move on.

And it's really hard when you have, when your wife's sitting there, when you have a six month old and there's not a lot of training, there's no connection, there's no, there's no tools to connect. And so you got this Jolly Roger device that feels like you're connecting with everybody and it allows you just to Xanax over your life. Yeah. So here's the, I'll push back on one thing. You do have the tools. Every one of these devices has an off button. Right. You can turn it off.

The question is, what are you going to backfill that time with? And I'm going to send you all of the questions for humans for couples decks, and I'm going to send you all the questions for humans for friends decks. I want you all just for 30 days, try those out. Okay. All right. And then here's the steps below that. Do you have a pen? I can grab them real quick. Hey, don't worry about it. You'll be able to get this episode, okay? Okay. I want you all to...

Imagine that the marriage y'all had, how long have y'all been married by the way? Going on six years. Okay. The six year marriage that you've had is over. Okay. Ta-da. Doesn't exist anymore. Was it good before you got pregnant by the way? Oh yes. And I would still say like, it feels good, but you know, you still, you still know there's something. That's right.

If we're not fighting, then, you know. No, it's because y'all are both Xanaxed out of your minds. You're on opiates, which is the phone, right? Yeah. You're going to fight more now that we put the phones away because you're going to have to feel. So tell me some cool things about the first two or three years when y'all were married. What was awesome? Was your sex life rad? Oh, yeah. Okay. Was your like, was your going out fun?

Yes, we, well, we are, we're on a budget. We, we actually don't go out just a terrible much time because we're, you know, trying to pay off debt, hit some goals. Yes. Okay. And, you know, but we just enjoyed, even if we weren't going out, we just, you know, we stayed home, we play games together. Um, you know, we just enjoyed each other's presence. I feel like. Okay.

I want y'all to reverse engineer that world in this totally new context. What does that mean? I want y'all to be honest about our marriage before baby is over. And that, in fact, that means it can be more awesome because we get to rebuild it however we want. Right. And it can be that we, he doesn't know how to do bedtimes the way you want them done.

He doesn't know how you want dishes done. You just get frustrated that they're not being done. Or you see what I'm saying? Like, let's start with very basic needs and wants. And let's talk about very basic needs and wants around money, around sex and intimacy, around laughter, around hanging out. And listen, this is going to sound super unsexy. Okay. But if y'all aren't already, you got to put sex on the calendar. You have to

Keep a notes app either on your phone or I keep it in a little journal. Things to talk about with my wife. I have so much going on in my head all the time. I probably get 200 text messages a day just from random people all over the country. It's such a, and I can't, as for emails, good grief, and direct messages, it's just madhouse. Not to mention the work and the projects and we're working on something that's going to be out in a year, working on, it's just all the time. And then I sit down with my wife and my body exhales so much that

That I forget those things I want to talk to her about. So write them down. And then we plan trips. Hey, we're going to drive an hour or two, so-and-so. And I'll have a list of things I'd love to talk to her about. And she'll have a list of things. Maybe she heard something in a podcast or she read something in a book and vice versa. And we'll chit-chat over them. Or we'll pull out the questions for humans cards sometimes and just dig back in. Things that, like...

that she, it may have changed over the last few years, right? So some of the questions, the way she answered them two years ago are different than she answered them now, which is cool. So all that to say is y'all have to be honest about the marriage we had is over and let's build this new marriage. And I don't want you to give any more power to that stupid phone than it deserves. A, you can't beat it, period. You cannot defeat the phone, meaning you can't casually drink.

That phone is wired to defeat you. Social media apps are wired to be better than you when it comes to just not like, I'm going to open up a bag of Skittles and just have two. You can't. They're better than you. And if you can, you should probably go see somebody because you're a psychopath. When it comes to phone, you got turned off. I turn off. And then you and your husband have to stare at each other and say, okay, what now?

And we have to rebuild a marriage and make it more amazing than it was before because we get to do that. I'm about to have a high school kid. My wife and I have never been married with a high school kid. So we're rebuilding right now, and I can't wait to see where it goes. It's going to be exciting and fun and super rad. So all I have to say is turn the phone off. Create some time from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. where there's no phones. Zero.

And then be honest about handing some help here. I'd like to just sit down here. You want to go make out right here. It's Thursday night. It's sexy night. Whatever the Friday night, let's go do karaoke, whatever it is. Let's rebuild this thing from the floor up and don't cash out on this really important thing. Have other friends, other couple friends. You have a group of women that you go hang out with.

He needs a group of guys he can go hang out with. And then y'all come back together and you're renewed and refreshed and have new ideas and new things to complain about and talk about and imagine. This is rebuilding a new marriage. I'm excited for what comes next for you guys. All of this starts with turning off the freaking phones. Stop numbing out on the life you have and look at each other and say, hey, five years from now, we're on a road that is not going to lead to anything good ever.

Let's shut these phones off. Let's turn the TV off. Let's look at each other and let's rebuild something amazing. Sarah, thank you for the call. Hang on the line. We'll hook you up with a bunch of the questions for humans cards. We'll be right back.

All right, I want to talk about Halo. It's an app that I use just about every single day. So we're here at the end of summer trying to fit in that last minute vacation, trying to figure out where all of our money went and trying to plan for the start of school. And it's chaos. It's chaos. It's chaos in your life and it's chaos in mine.

And it's this season when it's super important to make sure you double and triple down on your exercise practices, your counseling, your relationships, and your spiritual health. And if you're a person of faith or if you're just curious and you don't know anything about this faith, prayer, whatever stuff, don't let your daily prayer or your meditation practices or your questions go unanswered or by the wayside. Don't let your still time with God go.

As things ramp up and get more and more chaotic, we have to choose to slow down and focus on the things that really, really matter.

And in addition to my conversations with my friends and my personal reading and journaling time, Hallow helps me stay on point with my spiritual practices. Hallow is an app that's easy to download right to your phone and it is packed with daily prayers, lecture series, meditations, music, stories, nighttime sleep programs, and more. Hallow is the number one prayer app in the world. And it's simple, it's super high quality, and you can personalize it based on wherever you happen to be in your spiritual life.

I use it on my drive to work, when I'm sitting in front of my red light, sometimes when I'm out walking my dogs, and I even listen to some of the music when I'm writing.

Hallow has a journaling feature for your own personal reflection. I could go on and on. It's got everything. Here's what's really cool. This month, Hallow has special guests each week walking us through the lives of some incredible historical saints, learning more about their life, their faith, their story, and ultimately their surrender to God's call on their life. Hallow's Saints in Seven Days series dives deeper into the lives of these prominent saints, exploring their journey to sainthood and how it relates to our own lives.

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All right, let's go to Boise, Idaho and talk to Jessica. Hey, Jessica, what's up? Hi, how are you, Dr. John? I'm doing great. How about you? So good. So good. Awesome. What's up? Well, I just, I mean, I don't feel like it's a really big, deep question, but I just want to know how to help my seven-year-old. He was recently diagnosed with ADHD.

And I was diagnosed as an adult. We suspect my husband has it. So I just don't know what childhood looks like. And I'm trying to find out how do I kind of support him and encourage him and help him understand how it works without feeling broken or, you know, like I can't do it. I want to give him some hope and figure out how to do life with the way his really cool brain works. Okay. Classic ADHD. Yeah.

You have some questions about how the world works and you minimize them to make sure everybody else around you feels okay. Don't ever do that again. You got it. Okay. This is a big deal. This is a real big deal. Tell me about your childhood. How'd you grow up? Um, relatively normal. I think, although normal is different for everyone, but I, um, I was pretty decent at school. Actually. I didn't have a lot of the really classic hyperactive issues. Um,

Mine's more inattentive, but I grew up pretty good. I am the oldest and my parents are really young when they had me. So they kind of grew up with me, but we're really, you know, it was good. You're so great. You're like checking every box possible. Yeah. How do I get through them all? Yeah. When you were diagnosed as an adult, what led you to go get tested?

Um, it kind of actually started, my brother-in-law was tested and he was talking about some things and I was like, Oh yeah, like that's a lot me. And I've,

I was never officially diagnosed with anxiety, but I felt like I had anxiety. That's what I identified with, but not perfectly. And then the more I heard about it, and then I did a bunch of reading on women with ADHD. And I was like, yeah, I feel like my brain just tries to think about everything and I can't stop it. And that's why I felt like, and so that's what led me down that road was just

hearing more about it and figuring that out. Who diagnosed you? So started with a therapist that worked with me and then eventually I went through a doctor. Okay. I don't think I, yeah, I think that was it. Have you taken medication? I did for a period of time. I don't regularly. Yeah. And did you like being on it? Do you like being off it? Tell me about it.

So I didn't have any negative impact on a stimulant and that worked okay, but I didn't feel like it magically made my life better like I kind of thought it would. And then I was trying to get pregnant. We just had our fourth baby. So we're busy. But so I didn't, I don't know. I have a funny relationship with medication. I'm not against it, but I also don't think

It's necessarily something we need to have forever. So I don't really know how my relationship with that should look like with a child. Okay. Um, man, there's so much here and you're not calling about you. Um, I'm, I want to, here's the thing. I want to be super direct and honest about this cause it's such an important conversation. And, Oh man. Um,

Some parents hear this and they're relieved and other parents hear this and they are melted. Can you just promise me you'll be relieved? Yes. That's so unfair. Yes. No, yes, I will. Okay. Absolutely. So ADD, ADHD is not an illness in the medical sense, like disease or it's not like that. Okay. Okay.

And it drives me bananas when people call it a medical issue. It has biological consequences, of course, but it's not this fixed inherited brain disorder. Okay. And I took that line from the great Dr. Mate. Here's the easiest way I can explain it. ADHD is the way some bodies respond to chaos.

You being raised as a young girl by basically grown-up teenagers, right? Yeah. And some people's bodies would respond to that by shutting the system down. Some people's bodies would respond to that by overstimulation. Some people's bodies would feel that deeply. Just so happens that your body responds to it with chaos, right? Yeah.

Everything all at once. And by the way, you mentioned it. Girls especially tend to not have the hyperactivity part. They sit in the back of the classroom and the teachers pat them on the back because they're being quiet. They just don't realize they've just checked out. They've tuned out because they're creating their own universe. Is that fair? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So when it comes to a seven-year-old, and you say your husband might have it too. Tell me about him.

Yeah, he's, I mean, his dad, if you looked up the definition of ADHD, it's him. So I try to figure out what's learned and what's, you know, natural. But he just is very, I don't want to say impulse driven, but kind of, right? It's what do we want right now? And it can be really exciting, but I have to repeat myself a million times. It's great. He's amazing. But yeah. You just described him perfectly.

In some things, he's great and amazing and wonderful. In other things, you just want to pull your hair out one by one, right? And it's this toggle of if you could just be on time and start one project and finish this project, does he have magical time?

Yeah. Oh, we both do. So yeah, that's just super great. Okay. So here's the part where I'm going to ask you to not feel guilty and just shut down, but that sort of stuff everywhere, a little bit chaotic of an environment, their shoes and socks and mess and here. And what do we have for dinner? And dinner seems to surprise you every night at six 45. It's like what dinner and that flurry of activity, your child is going to have a body that responds to chaos. Yeah.

And it might respond by running around and it might respond by sitting in the back of the room and just shutting down. Okay. So the first thing, tell me about your little boy before I just start launching into this. Tell me about your little boy.

Yeah, he is so sweet and extremely empathetic. And he's a good kid. And it's really his teacher is the one who brought it up. But he just has a hard time focusing. And he, you know, can't... Timers aren't really helping. And sitting there isn't... You know, distraction is really difficult. It's a nightmare. At home... Yeah, at home, I feel like he does okay. He sometimes gets really angry. And I can tell it's when he feels misunderstood. Okay. If he's...

just having a hard time communicating. Then he gets really angry, but otherwise he's, I mean, he's just really at his core, such a good, sweet kid. Sure. So what is something or some things that he can absolutely lock in on? Like what, like makes him excited? No, not it makes him excited. What is something he can do for hours? Can he do Legos or can he play video games or read about dinosaurs? Like what are some things he can do? Just lock in.

Yeah, he loves, you kind of hit him, Legos are great and learning about dinosaurs. He struggles with reading a little bit. Okay. So if he watches TV, it typically is about, let's learn about more animals or dinosaurs. He loves learning. He just absorbs it. Okay. So the fallacy of the ADHD brain is it's just this chaotic mess.

And what we try to do is we try to impose more restriction and lock that kid even further into things that bore them to death or that make them uncomfortable, especially sensations, especially feelings, especially being surrounded in environments where they don't feel safe and they don't feel loved and their bodies start responding to chaos. And so what do we do? We get mad at them. They get in trouble. And we've created these systems that they have to sit in a chair for eight hours, which is insane.

And on and on and on and on and on. Okay. So here's the conversation I had in my house and I'm going to protect my kids. But I sat down with one of my kids.

By the way, your father-in-law, his picture would be behind my picture. Okay, so I've spent years down the rabbit hole on the epigenetics of ADHD and the biochemistry of ADHD and yada, yada, all of it. I had to figure out what was wrong with my brain, and I was terrified of passing it on to my kids. And I sat down with one of my children, and I said the following, God gave you and me very special brains and bodies.

And that brain allows us to be extra sensitive to the feelings of other people, which makes us really good at sitting with people when they're sad and when they're upset. And it makes us a lot of fun to be around because we love laughing when other people are funny. We also are really attuned when people are mad at us. And we even sometimes create or invent other people being mad at us because we want to protect ourselves.

And so here's what I did. I framed it as this is both the greatest thing ever and it's going to make you a gift to humanity. And I also said our brains and bodies need some extra attention. We have to do some extra work that other people don't have to do because we do live in this crazy world. And I can't tell you two things happened there. Number one, my kid felt not alone. And I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen their entire body just whoosh. It was pretty magical.

The second thing is it's given us a common language moving forward. Sometimes I'll just tap my head gently, like remember our special brain. And sometimes I'll tap our chest. Like I know your feelings are really big right now. And that doesn't mean they're telling you the truth.

Okay. But there's an important part of ADHD is this connection, connection, connection, connectivity. Not everyone, but lots of kids love hugs. They love skin to skin contact. Is that yours? Yeah, he does. Okay. So a magical moment in the morning and tell him, I know this is ridiculous, but we do this for mom.

And I want you to put your hands on either side of his face. And there's a lot of neurophysiology about this. I want you to put your hands on either side of his face and look him in the eyes. If he'll let you do it for 30 seconds, that would be magic. But most kids are too maniacal. But 10 or 15 seconds. And just say, can mommy hold your face? And I get reports from parents all over the country telling me their kids will just come plug into their hands. It just gives peace to a kid's nervous system.

And then I want you to do things like, hey, it's walk time. Especially in the summer, you can manage this. 30 minutes of walking. Especially in the school year, making sure that we're going to get outside and see some sunlight before we go to school. And especially when we get home from school, both of those times, the circadian rhythm is really important. We're going to be overly attentive to...

Lots of extra sugar, some dietary stuff, but we're not going to go down internet rabbit holes. There's all kind of crazy madhouse stuff on the internet. And just wait till the comments on this one, by the way. It's going to be filled with all sorts of, geez Louise. But there is some research about excessive sugar and sweets. And also, is your kid obsessed with sweets?

No, actually, not really. Good for you. Good for you. Okay. What does the doctor recommend? Or what is the person who diagnosed your kid? What have they recommended? I mean, his pediatrician brought up medication right away. And I told him I wasn't totally sure. And I love his pediatrician, but I'm not sure that I align with him perfectly on this because he just basically said behavioral stuff tends to not work.

uh not prove to be as effective as medication and so he's not pushing me on it but that would be his preference oh man that's tough um all right here's i'm going to rattle off a few things that i wrote down here okay okay i want you and your husband to make a commitment to each other to be militant about cleaning up your physical space okay is that going to be hard or easy

Um, I'm not going to lie. It would probably be hard at first, but it's getting easier. We've been kind of on a journey of just decluttering and getting rid of all the junk. And so it's, it aligns with what we're working on. Okay. Yeah. If y'all can pull off, um, family hugs, all three of you together, that'd be amazing. Or you've got four kids, right?

Yeah, the youngest one's three months old, so he doesn't need to join in. Okay, yeah. I have a rollout Olympic wrestling mat in my living room, and me and both of my kids, my son and my daughter, will wrestle. Just the physical contact. You get both skin-to-skin contact, you get the competitive stuff, and you get all of that excess built-up energy as a place to go.

And I'm not saying you have to do that, but if y'all are in the backyard, if y'all can roll around in the grass, if y'all can play basketball, if you could do some stuff together, right? Painting together is big. Playing music together is big. Because a seven-year-old is going to want to be like mom and dad and is also going to feel like being like mom and dad makes them feel a little bit out of sorts. And so creativity, art, music gives them something to everybody to do together and to plug in.

Some of my greatest times is one of my kids is just sitting there. We don't talk much. We just paint together. I'm an awful painter and even worse at drawing. One of my other kids, we play music together. Okay. Sleep. Good God help you sleep. I'll say it again for those in the back. Sleep. You have a good sleep routine.

Yeah, he wakes up earlier than everyone else, no matter what time we put him to bed. So I'm not sure how to encourage him to sleep longer. I would let him sleep or I would put him to bed earlier. I would let him wake up early. That's fine. Okay. Let his chronotype be his chronotype. But that means it's just tougher in the evenings. And then, man, the more you can teach him to accept himself for his weirdness. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't have any evidence to back this up, but I believe that there's some great conversations, anthropological conversations about a certain part of a population in a given tribe. You would have wanted to have some sort of ADHD wiring so that you can feel, so that you can...

Be up early, out and about. So you see what I'm saying? It would have played a good role in a community until we decided that entire community has to be so rigid for all these hours a day. And we reward you for not speaking, for not thinking independently, for not being interested in what you want to be interested in, but being interested in what some stupid state test is going to tell you you have to be interested in. And then we blame the brain. We call the brain broken or diseased, and it's just madness. And so...

I understand kids have to go to school. And by the way, there's going to be tons of comments. Please don't read any of the comments on this thing, on this conversation. Okay. Yeah. And if y'all end up with Dexedrine, Ritalin, or any of that kind of stuff, and you reach a point when his behavior in class is, is behavior outside of class, he is becoming somebody that he can't, um,

I don't know how to say this in the right way. He is becoming somebody that he can't be happy with. Then there is times when medication can help, but it is infinitely rarer than we diagnose and we prescribe. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I would go to the ends of the earth to figure out other alternatives before I sat down and put my kids on medication. That's just, that's, that is just me telling you what I would do in my house.

And me being fully honest, I'm not a physician. I'm not a psychiatrist. Okay. But I would go to the ends of the earth to try to figure out other alternatives. Yeah. I've heard you mention that in previous calls just softly. And I'm like, I really like that perspective, to be honest, because I feel like there are ways around this. So we're working on. But listen, I just don't want him to feel broken, I guess. A seven-year-old absorbs their environment. So the greatest gift you can give him is.

is you and your husband work really hard to get well. In my house, I have a sign in several different places that says, don't forget to remember. Now my wife gently says it to me. And I, again, I've talked about this on the show. I literally won't even see the cups in my car. I just get another cup and another cup and another cup and another cup. I don't see them.

But as I'm getting out of my truck, if I see a little sign on the door that says, don't forget to remember, I do remember how good and peaceful it feels to get into a clean car. So I will then turn and look and see, oh, there's seven Yetis in this car, right? Or don't forget to remember how good it feels when the weights are all racked up in the home gym. Don't forget to remember how good it feels when you make your bed and you get into a clean bed with the maid bed in the evening.

And so I've had to work really hard to practice these outside things. And by the way, to make peace with the things I don't want to change. I don't ever want to change the fact that I'm overly empathetic. I don't ever want to change that my feelings are really strong, stronger than my skin burns sometimes with feeling. I don't ever want that to go away. But that means I've got to, when something starts at eight o'clock, I've got to start leaving way, way, way, way earlier because I know I'm going to get distracted.

Because I got to be there at eight o'clock. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I'd love for you and your husband to sit down and say, okay, where is there chaos in this house? And chaos does not mean there's like shoot them ups and laser beams and yet none of that. Where is their disconnection? Where are their true frustrations? And where, here's a question that you and your husband can ask each other. How can I love you better? How can I love you today?

And the answer might be, man, it would really, you could really love me by being on time. You could really love me by putting your phone down and just making eye contact with me and asking how my day went.

And what we're doing when we do that, we ask that question and we're honest about it is we begin to strip out the panic. We begin to strip out the eye rolls. We begin to strip out the chaos. We begin to strip out the clutter everywhere. By the way, owing people money puts your body on edge and spins it up. There's all these different ideas. And then your seven-year-old's body is just going to respond to that.

And so, and then we blame the kid. That's just the system we got is blame the kid, blame the kid. And I don't want to blame anybody, but I do want parents to look at the household they're creating and look at their marriage and the stability. And as Dr. Becky calls it, the sturdiness of that marriage. And then I want to talk about, okay, what are we doing with this kid when it comes to routine, when it comes to food, when it comes to play, when it comes to creativity, when it comes to, we have moments in his life when he is locked in.

So his brain can let's, let's pour gasoline on those fires. Let's don't knock. Let's don't quench that fire and try to get them excited about chlorophyll more like borophyll, but we do need to teach them. Hey, sometimes you got to pass the science test. So here's what must be true for you to pass the science test. Cause that's life too. And anybody who's like, we just don't need to take science tests. That's stupid. Also hope that was helpful. Jessica, your kid's not broken. Your kid is an absolute gift.

The system we drop those kids into is broken. And now as parents, our job is to teach them a, you're okay. You're a gift. And here's how we navigate systems that we get dropped into. Cause all of us do that are hard for us to, uh, operate in. And it's a parent's job to say, okay, this system is too much for him or, or it's, this is just squashed in too much. And we're going to find out alternatives. Um,

And then there's moments we have to sit down with a medical professional and say, I've done everything I can. Please help. And by the way, I've done that too, Jessica. So thank you so, so much for the call. To go all the way back to the beginning, this is a big deal. And I'm really grateful that you and your husband are trying to seek this out, seek out some answers and to dig in. Call anytime. Call anytime. And if your husband wants to call, tell him I've got some ideas for him too. We'll be right back.

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All right, we're back. Hey, we have to talk about Inside Out 2. Yeah, we went and saw it this weekend. Yeah, I saw it when it came out. And man, I have gotten so many requests like, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Is it okay to take my kid? What do you think? So very cool. What'd you think? Oh, I loved it. I thought it was great. I thought the first one was great though. And so I thought they did a really good job on it. I'm curious to know your thoughts specifically on the part where she has the panic attack and how they dealt with that.

In the hockey rink? Yeah. So, A, if you have a child, I think every kid needs to go see Inside Out 2. That's just what I think. I took my kids. Both of my kids will go again. And I think it provides an amazing picture of

That gives a child a reference point of what's going on inside their body. I think that movie is very helpful inside out was helpful This is very helpful Um, i'm gonna do some spoiler alerts here. So if you haven't seen it yet, I put my disclaimer I mean I put my opinion go see it. Everybody needs to go see it. By the way, moms and dads you need to go see it, too Um, if you don't have kids and you're in your 30s go see it on a date. It's worth seeing It just provides some imagery for what we all feel here

Here's okay. So this is spoiler alert time. Two things that I thought it got really right. Incredibly right. Amy Poehler plays joy and our voices joined us just such a phenomenal job. But one of the most important lessons of the movie is joy figures out how to hide bad memories. She gets rid of them and she begins to get rid of them at an accelerating rate. And she,

The movie does a great job showing how important hanging on to all of our memories can be because there's a scene where the character, the young girl, gets a big penalty and almost costs her team the game. She gets pulled out of the game for a penalty, and then she comes back in, and at the very end of the game, she wins the game. What she learns in real life is,

Sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes you make poor decisions and there's consequences. And if you're persistent and gritty and show back up, there can be, not always, but can be a happy ending. Well, Joy takes all these bad memories, like the penalty, and she gets rid of them. She figures a way to get rid of them. And later on in the movie, when there's another big penalty moment, the child doesn't have any of those bad memories plus the overcoming of the obstacles to draw back on.

And so she feels all alone and like she can't do it. She has nothing, no reservoir to draw on. So they do a great job in understanding that bad things that happen to us, man, secrets will kill you. Bad memories hidden away will kill you. It's the processing and then moving through them, not around them or not avoiding them. That's so powerful. That's number one.

Number two, the character of anxiety is just awesome. It's just awesome. And character, was it, what was the big, was it embarrassment? So there's, the new ones are anxiety, embarrassment,

envy and ennui. Ennui. Perfect. Those were perfect. Ennui is amazing. Just so good. But embarrassment does a great job. And shame. It's just so good. So the picture of anxiety and when anxiety takes over is just exquisite. It's excellent, excellent, excellent. So back to your question. I thought during the panic attack scene, they were going to do, they almost followed building an unanxious life to a T.

And they didn't in that one scene. And I was a little bit, ah, here's what I wish they would have done. So she has a panic attack in, in there's disconnection. There's all the stuff that we talked about on the show for years. By the way, I didn't make any of this up. It's just reading the anxiety literature. Clearly they've got some mental health professionals working on that show too. But when she has the panic attack, she solves it on her own in her head and her friends are right outside, uh,

And I wish one of her friends would reach in and hold her hand. And I thought that was about to happen in the movie. And I was going to go, that's it right there. And her friends didn't. Yeah. When her friend notices what's happening, I thought she was about to come in there and be like, are you like grab her hand or something? And that, that was the one piece I was hoping for as well. Oh man. Cause connection is,

And whenever I'm around somebody that's having a panic attack, I have just a very step one, two, three, four, five. But step one is to literally hold their hand, skin on skin contact. And if they give me permission, I'll put their hand on my chest, a grownup, and they can just feel my heartbeat. And then we'll just go for a walk, right? So that can walk, I can roll somebody out of a panic attack right away. And, but seeing her sit there, it felt very Hollywood. Like you're, you can do this all on your own. And that's just not true.

And so that was the miss. And then she opens her eyes. She's healed from her own panic attack. And then her friends are right there. Right. The idea of a child having a panic attack by themselves and then just being like, and I'm good. Right. Yeah. I wish somebody either. That was the one piece I was like, no. Either one of the older girls or one of her friends would have seen it happening. Or even the coach. The adult would have been even better. But when she opens her eyes, her friends are right there. And so that was my only like, eh. But, yeah.

In all, excellent movie, very, very well done. And the imagery alone, the giving a kid a picture of, I'm not crazy. There's something inside my brain trying to protect me.

Let's see if I can bring forth some of these other things like gratitude or joy. And I love that idea because it separates a kid from themselves. It's all of us need to separate ourselves from the inner voice that tells us we're broken. Something's wrong with us. I'm not my bad thoughts. I'm not my body's reaction. Like the last color. I'm not my ADHD. My body's just responding to chaos. All right, great. Let's just solve the chaos and let's be gentle with our bodies. And so

In that regard, good on that movie. Great, great, great. I wish we had more movies that were so thoughtful about the science and so thoughtful about the art. It's hilarious. It's a funny, funny movie. And we're so thoughtful on the imagery that we're going to put in kids' heads. It was a welcome change to the normal just nonsense out there.

And you and your family, same? Oh, yeah. We loved it. I loved how they showed the panic attack with inner brain because it was like having someone who's had them. Like, that's it. No other emotions can get in. No other thoughts can get in. It's just like the swirling, you know. That was excellent. It was so well done. And the idea that anxiety thought she was helping, she was protecting her. Like, oh, that's just so perfect. So, yet again. And joy understanding that

I can become toxic positivity. Right. You can't just smile everything away. Yeah. And that as she's growing up, there are more emotions now. It's not just the core, you know, four or whatever. That movie helped us. The first one helped us so much when my son was little dealing with anger and him maybe able to recognize, oh, the redhead guy, you know, is mad right now. And so just seeing that when they do such a good job and it's, I think it's the first time I can ever recall seeing

a movie like that, a children's movie or otherwise, that's life-changing, especially to a child. I always smile. One of my greatest moments with my dad is I took him to see Louis Black about 10 years ago, the comedian who plays Anger. And my dad was laughing so hard. At one point, I looked over and thought, oh, he's going to die here. He's going to have a heart attack. And I almost started to stop. Let's go out in the lobby. My dad was laughing so hard. That comedian was so out of his mind hilarious.

And I remember exhaling and being like, if you die laughing, you win. You win. So I just turned and we laughed until the concert was over, man. So my son's 18 now and he still has, we bought him the anger doll during all that because, and he would pull it out and he's like, I feel like this right now. And he still has that. And at 18, we were cleaning out his room and he was like, no, I'm keeping that because it's still said for him, even such a symbol of,

I'm angry. That's okay. I just have to learn how to control it. But he still has that sitting on the shelf. I didn't even think about that. I'm going to get me an anxiety doll for the shelf in here. That would be fun. That'd be great. That would be cool. All right. Well, so go see it. Go see the movie. And if I just ruined it for you, you should have seen it earlier. There you go. Just kidding. Love y'all. Stay in school. Be nice to each other. It's going to be all right. We'll see you soon.