I’ve Been in a Sexless Marriage for Over 20 Years
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Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. I am in the midst of a 24-year sexless relationship. To be very clear, we have a great marriage. We're best friends, all of that. It's just there is no physical touch at all. Okay, and I want to tell you that calling it the best marriage or a great marriage is not true. What up? What up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. I'm so glad that you are with us.

We're talking about your emotional health, your mental health, your parenting, your marriage, whatever you got going on in your world. Real people going through real challenges.

I've been doing this for a long, long time, sitting with hurting people and trying to figure out what's the next right thing to do. And if you want to be on this show, if that's you, if you're stuck somewhere trying to figure out what's the next move in your relationship with your kids, with your own mental health journey, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291. It's 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask. And quick shout out.

um, to my brother, Paul with Cedar management group. I was in North Carolina this past weekend to speak in his group and he got me this incredible portfolio that, um, yeah, it's pretty magic, man. So thank you to my new friend, Paul. Awesome, dude. All right. Let's go out to Minneapolis and talk to JJ. What up JJ? Hello, sir. How are you today? All right. How about you? Um, I'm doing okay, but struggling. Okay. Bring it on. What's up?

Uh, I am in, uh, give me a moment. I am in the midst of a, uh, 24 year sexless relationship. Okay. You married? Yes. Uh, married, married 20 years, uh, with a woman that I'm deeply, deeply in love with and always have been. Um,

And the crux of the question that I'm dealing with is whether she can't address this issue or she won't. That's not a question I can answer, brother. I understand. I understand that. When you've asked her that question, what has she said?

Well, that's the problem. It's not that we have not discussed this. We discuss this on average about once a year. I will not let it go, as in just not have it just sit quietly. But she continually asks for space, and she needs time. And for years, I've given it. Yeah, you gave her a quarter century. Yeah. Yes. But it's more complicated than just we're not.

It started with, well, it originally starts with her childhood traumas, which shortly after we started dating, in which time there was no sexual issues, her vaginismus developed. Sure.

which she has never been able to address. And we went about 12 years during which time we got married and had a child because we were intermittently able to a handful of times be together. When you say she wasn't able to deal with it, did she go meet with physicians and doctors and psychiatrists to work through it? Or when you say we weren't able to, she just said, hey, this is painful. I don't want to do this. And that was the end of the story.

to the ladder. It's not that she would not, but everything she did was with extreme reluctance and with me pulling her along to move forward. Yeah, that's not a way to deal with vaginismus. Okay. No, it is not. Okay. But it was greatly, greatly complicated halfway through our relationship, but we

by her being diagnosed with bone marrow cancer. Good God almighty, this poor woman. Yes, yes. That's how I feel too. But she had spinal damage from that. We thought we may lose her for quite a while. She's...

She's got, you know, reconstructive surgery. She has immense constant pain that we've never been able to get her out of and neuropathy in her legs and pelvis, which complicates this. But the question to me is, she didn't want to in the 12 years prior either. And it now feels like

like something I can't challenge anymore. Yeah. Because how do you ask your wife, cancer patient wife to have sex with you if she can't? Yeah. And between that and her emotional issues that started it, I just, I need to know, I need some framework to decide whether she cannot simply be asked to do this or if she's just refusing to. Yeah.

Again, it would be shameful of me to speak on her behalf. But also, I get, by the way, I just want to say this out loud. I don't hear from you, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, I don't hear from you a jerk. I hear from you a man that loves and desperately misses his wife. Yeah. And you and I both know of jerk guys who it's all about them and sex is all about them, and I don't get that here at all.

I get a guy that stood by his wife for a long time and he desperately loves her and desperately misses her. Intimately, right? Emotionally, physically, just misses my wife. Well, then to be very clear, we have a great marriage. Yeah. We're best friends, all of that. It's just there is no physical touch at all. Okay. And I want to tell you that calling it the best marriage or a great marriage is not true. No. Because you're drowning on the other end.

Yeah. Okay. And so it's important to own reality when we're, when we're moving forward here, because if you keep calling, it's a great, it's so wonderful. It's so great. It's so good. And there's no physical intimacy. And by the way, that's more than intercourse, right? There's a, there's a, there's a mile. No, we, we, we don't touch. She can't stand touch. Okay. She can't, she doesn't want to be touched period. That's, that is the, is the place where I would start.

less about intercourse. I mean, you talk about bone cancer and treatments. I mean, that's just going to wreak havoc. And reconstructive surgeries of all kinds. I mean, that's going to wreak havoc. So I don't know enough. I don't have x-rays. I don't have that expertise to tell you, no, I just do this, this, and this. And everything's a go.

This is somebody who is, for a million reasons, and I'm not going to say they're unjustified reasons, but who, for a million reasons, has said, I don't want to touch you. And you, as the person on the other end of that, are dying. Yes. And so until you have that level of openness and honesty, then we're not going to get to the root issue, which is...

Is this something you're going to stay in? Is this the world that's just as is, right? For better or worse, sickness and health? Or is there something deeper? Have you sat down and said, and I'm overgeneralizing this and I'm overgendering this, okay? Most men sit down to solve some of these problems in a very spreadsheet kind of way. What do we have to do so that we can? Versus...

You sitting across from your wife and you tell her, I love you so much and I miss you and I'm dying here because we can't even hold hands. And there's something about me that is gross to you, that is offensive to you, that is unlovable to the point where you won't touch me. And when you ask it that way, it becomes more of an invitation instead of a problem to be fixed that we can just read in a manual or watch a YouTube video about. Have you tried that?

I've, I have, I have tried that and a number of other things. The problem is she doesn't want to talk about it either. Okay. So the last time we had a conversation about it about a year and a half ago, that was the line she ended it on was, I just don't want to talk about it anymore. Okay. So my question for you is this, this is a hard, frightening question. Yeah. What is your, or what state like statement?

Because it looks like you have two paths ahead of you, okay? And this is me trying to choose reality. Tell me if I'm off. It's a quarter century, 25 years. Your wife's been through hell and back a few times. And then at some point on the way back, she just sat down in a lawn chair and said, I'm just staying here, right? And so you have a quarter of a century of data. Are you going to exhale and make peace with your best friend who just doesn't like touch? Or are you going to leave?

Because that seems to be the question you're dancing around. She has looked you in the eye and said, I do not and will not talk about this. This conversation is over. I'm moving on. And if you continue to stay in this loop and this merry-go-round, you're going to drive yourself batty. If you choose to say, I'm with a woman who has had a ton of trauma and is not able to be physically or not able to, doesn't desire to, and I'm going to put all that in the same bucket right now.

There is no physical intimacy, and this is our marriage. Exhale, not how you would have drawn it up, but not by your hand, but in your lap. This is the life the universe gave you. And I'm heading forward with my head held high and my integrity and character in check. Here we go. Or I'm leaving. I got one life to live, and I'm out. But those seem like the two paths before you. And just asking and continually dancing around. Well, maybe next year I'll say the right thing. And maybe next year I'll say the right thing. 25 years, bro.

- No, that's why it's happening now. - Yeah. - And that's why the decision is necessary now. - So where are you? Do you have somebody else? - No, absolutely never have, never wanted. - Okay, so what's your, like where are you leaning? What are the questions going on in your mind and your heart? - That's why I have to address this is because I can't stop thinking about this. It's impacting my life, impacting my relationship with my daughter, it's impacting so many things. - Yeah, of course.

And I'm paralyzed with it because my choice, no matter how I proceed, I don't have a framework to feel good about myself. Either I'm sacrificing myself for the woman I love, which I could feel good about, but not proud of. Why wouldn't you be proud? I'm going crazy.

Because it's hard to sign up for a lifetime without touch. Dude. That's not what I want. No, it's torture. It's torture. Call it what it is. It's torture. And yet the other option is to, as you've said a couple of times, it's not her fault.

And she's a wonderful wife in every aspect other than this. And it feels selfish. JJ, it's a huge part of human connection. Stop minimizing it. Okay. No, I'm not. That's why I want, that's why I need to understand whether or not she, she's just being stubborn about it and won't do it. Or if this is too much to ask, I don't think you're going to get that. I don't think you're going to get that question. I don't think you're going to get an answer to that question. No. Have you gone to talk to somebody? Have you all gone to talk to somebody?

Yes, I have separately and she has as well as a couple we've been. How do those conversations go? Not well. She won't, she won't engage in therapy. She says she doesn't understand what therapy is for and what she's supposed to say. She doesn't, you know, and it's, it's just, it's another way we could address it that can't be addressed, you know? So I think you've got, I mean, I think you've got your answer. I don't know that will or won't is the answer here.

The answer here is it's not with a period at the end. Maybe so. Well, thank you. Now, hold on. I just want to sit here with you. This is heartbreaking. I'm heartbroken for your wife who was abused and who's been through bone cancer. I'm heartbroken for you because you sound like you're a man of high integrity. You're a good guy. And I wouldn't wish a lifetime of no touch on anybody, even somebody I hated. It's torture. And I hate it for you, man. I hate it, hate it, hate it for you.

Yeah. So I want you to know you're not crazy. You're not a bad guy. And this is a huge, huge, huge deal. Okay. Yeah. And it's easy for me to sit here completely removed from the situation and say, my God, can you not hold hands?

No, please don't understand. It's not even, it's not quite that, but we can hold hands. We can give her, give a good morning, good night peck on the lips, you know? Okay. There's nothing beyond that. There's no touch. Okay. And no intimate embrace. Yeah. Okay, man. I hate that for you. The last thing I can tell you is, or ask you, have you sat down and said, I'm dying inside? Yeah, I have. How'd that conversation go?

Uh, the, these conversations don't go well because we're, because forgive me for self diagnosing. She, her fight and flight instinct kicks in. I'm attacking her as she feels, which I'm not. And the time that we had that conversation, it was how dare you put that on me that, that I was struggling. And I said, I just, we need to figure this out somehow. Um,

And she said, how dare you put that on me? And that's the way most of it goes. I don't have the status to ask to change this. Then I'm going to suggest after 25 years, you're not in a marriage, my friend. You're a caretaker. Maybe so. I hate that for you, man.

I don't feel that way up until right now and even continuing. I still don't feel that way, but that may be the way it is anyway. Hear a difference, my friend, between... I've talked to guys. I've talked to guys on this show. I've talked to women on this show who are in the last few months of pregnancy whose husbands were complaining about a lack of sex. And I'll say, dude, you're an idiot. You're an idiot. Stop. You know what I mean?

Like, what's the matter with you? Or if your wife's going through chemo and reconstructive surgery and you ask the doctor, how much is the recovery time? And he says, it's going to be a year before she can move. And you're like, are you kidding me? I got to go a year with that? Dude, that's a jerk. You walking alongside somebody in their emotional struggles, their mental health struggles, their physical struggles.

And also having needs to, wants to, desire to, it doesn't make you a bad guy. There's not a how dare you put this on me. There's a it's going to look different for us than it does for other couples for sure. But a marriage is something where both people can say, I desire you. I want you. Here's some things I need. And if you get shut out, let's take sex off the table because it's really charged. My guess is you don't have a lot of space for any needs in your home, do you?

You know, I do. Okay, tell me about them. Well, I guess I take that as this is the only need I need scratched. Is that because you've become incredibly self-sufficient? Maybe. I mean, that's kind of who I was to begin with. So, yeah, I am that guy and I do that, but that's...

I don't need much. I'm not asking for much. I know, man, but I want you to stop minimizing yourself and your space. It sounds like you've been a pretty great husband. To circle all the way back around to the beginning question, man, I can't answer that. It sounds like you've got the answer and it's really tough to digest. And I'm telling you just like husband to husband, I cannot imagine having to digest what you're having to digest. But I can't see another path forward other than

And a big exhale. And she has looked at you and said, I am not interested in having this conversation, much less trying to come to some sort of way that I can love you. And the way you're telling me would mean the world to you. Not to mention the physical challenges, not to mention any of those things. Right.

And again, I don't have any idea what kind of physical challenges she's experiencing, if intercourse even be possible for her, depending on her reconstructive surgery and the nature of the chemo she went through, all that stuff. But we're just talking about intimate embrace. Just that sense that somebody puts their head on their shoulder and you're hugging and you can feel it in your nervous system that you're loved and you're safe. And she says, how dare you put that on me? That's tough, man. That's tough.

But it sounds like your choice is to exhale and say, okay, this is my lot. This is the path I was given. And I'm going to walk it with dignity. And I'm going to figure out what I have to do. Or you leave. And if you're a man who's committed to, I'm not going to leave, then I applaud you, my friend. The highest form, that's covenant. You said I'd do it till death do us part. And that's a tough road you're walking. But I applaud you. And I wouldn't trade places with you. It's a tough, tough place to be. That's just me being honest.

But I think continuing to ask, is this possible? Is this capable? Is this capable? Is this possible? Is this going to haunt you? And it's going to drain any sort of future vitality that you have. And so I wish you peace in making the choice that you're going to make. And it sounds like you're going to stay. Good on you. And then exhaling and say, okay, I'm going to grieve this because I love her. And this will never be a part of our relationship, our marriage. Embrace, touch, connectivity, sensuality. That will never be a part of this marriage.

And so in light of that, who am I going to become next? What am I going to do? Where am I going to channel that energy? What does that look like? And that sounds like it's the path before you. I have confidence in you, man. I have confidence in you, but I think it's going to take a season of grieving, of just exhaling and not waiting. Maybe today, maybe today, maybe today. I think that maybe today's are killing you. Complex stuff, man. And I wish I had something better news for you. It's just one of those that ends with a, man,

i'm just honored that you asked me to sit with you and i'll sit with you the next right move may be writing your future self that 10 years from now sell a letter saying okay in light of this here's who i'm going to be here's what i'm going to learn here's the adventures i'm going to go have here's what i'm going to go do because i'm not going to cash my entire life in even though i've got this huge um hole in my marriage and in my in my heart but in in spite of that i'm going to move forward maybe that's the path my brother

Call me anytime, man. I appreciate you trusting me enough to sit with me and let me sit with you. We'll be right back. All right. We have to talk about the greatest sleep innovation since the invention of the mattress. I'm talking about eight sleep. I'm so jazzed that eight sleep is partnering with the Dr. John Deloney show to take care of our listeners and help change the way y'all sleep and ultimately change your marriages, change your health and change your lives.

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All right, let's go out to Renee in Nola, New Orleans, Louisiana. What's up, Renee? Dr. John, how are you? I'm having the time of my life. How are you? Well, I've been better. Uh-oh. All right, what happened? Okay. Well, about six weeks ago, I terminated a friendship with not only a friend, but my neighbor. Okay. What happened?

Well, a lot had, it was coming. I have a family. Okay. Let me give you some backstory. Hold on. Let's go to the end and then we'll reverse engineer it. Okay. So what happened that you terminated this friendship?

She had attached herself to my husband and I, my family and I. I was not able to do anything without including her. And if I did, she was upset. What was going on in her life? Well, that's just it. She has no life.

Whoa, shots fired, Renee. What do you mean? No, I'm sorry. No, it's okay. No, no, be unfiltered. Be unfiltered. That's the only way we're going to get to the truth. She has no friends. She lives with her 86-year-old mother. Her husband that was in his, well, he was 80, passed away two and a half years ago. And even prior to that, he had been sick for a long time, but she had no one. Okay.

So when I moved here, she, after six months, decided, I want to be your friend. And it was a love bomb. It was full on. Did it feel good at first? Well, yeah. Yeah, it did. Because I was alone here. My husband was planning to retire. We bought this place a thousand miles away near our children. But they're still 30 minutes, 40 minutes away. And it was nice. I didn't know a soul here. Yeah.

And it was nice. And so we did things together. We'd sit out and we'd chat and have a glass of wine and carrots, you know. And all of the sudden, it was constant. And my husband came home once a month to see me. And of course, we'd have the family in and we'd plan things. And it got to where I couldn't plan anything because the questions were

When's he coming home and what do you plan to do? And, you know, are the kids coming? Who all's coming? Oh, I'd love to see them. And then, or, oh, I'll come up. And what about early on saying, oh, thank you so much. We're going to have just a private personal family time tonight, but we'll see if we can all get together at some point while they're here.

I did that. Okay. And then she just ran right over you? She did. And not only that, she started becoming very disappointed. But that's her choice.

Well, I know that, but, you know, she got aggressive when the invitation wasn't extended. And we had a little incident a couple of years, no, a year ago where she lashed out at me for something. And I couldn't speak to her at the time, but I did a few weeks later. I sat her down and I said, you know, I'm your friend.

And I've been very good to you, and I think likewise. But you can't speak with me like that. Renee, yeah! Dude, yes! If everyone in the world did what you just did, we'd have a different planet. Good on you. I mean, I couldn't do it at the time because we had her elderly mother. We were in LAX traveling to Hawaii. She went to Hawaii with y'all?

No, she asked me to go with them because she couldn't handle her mother by herself. Gotcha. Okay. And then I didn't realize I was going to become a porter, but anyway, she had a meltdown at me and I couldn't say anything at the time because it would have just ruined her mother's trip. And I love her mother. Well, good for you. That shows some emotional maturity and some restraint and good on you. But it sounds like you sat down, had that conversation, didn't change anything.

It didn't. Can I ask you, you mentioned something and what was going on between your husband and her? Okay. Am I right? I'm trying to get emotional. It's okay to get emotional. This is a heavy subject. So I had planned a trip abroad and there was an incident two days before I was scheduled to leave. I was very upset about it and I had... What was the incident?

She got nasty again because she wasn't invited up. Okay. And I told him, I said, I've had it. I can't do this anymore. I've been walking on eggshells. And the friendship is no longer worth it. However, she's my neighbor. Anyway, I didn't realize a lot of this until I returned. There were some things, well, okay.

Some of the things that she's done this past November, she sat me down and she was sitting directly across from me. And she said, so mom's going to my brother's for Christmas and I'll be flying solo. And she just sat there and smiled at me. And at that time, I mean, that's pressure. It is. But let's go back to your husband.

Okay, go back to him. Okay, anyway, while I was gone, he thought he would try to talk with her. She, of course, stopped when she saw him outside, and they had a little conversation, and he said, why don't we talk? Why don't we get together and talk? Uh-oh. Yeah. I'm sorry. If a man that was not my husband, not my therapist, not my pastor stopped me,

And at the end of the conversation said, why don't we talk? I would have some questions. Red flags. Or green flags, if that's what you're hoping for. Well, I would have red flags, but she smiled up. Because you're a person of character and integrity. Well, she smiled up at him and said, I'd like that. So a couple of days later, he texted her and he said, would you like to have a drink?

Get together for a drink. And she said, sure, tomorrow. And he said, yeah. So she texted him the next day, said, I'm home. You want to come down? Which he went. Now, he was planning to have this conversation with her that she was destroying our friendship. But of course, had he given it some thought, which he's a brilliant man. I don't know why he didn't. Once he got there, he realized he couldn't say that. What if she went into hysterics?

But he was telling me this. No one told me while I was away that they had gotten together and had drinks. And as you can imagine. She thought this was a date. She thought it was a date. Right. And Renee, this is very hard for me to say because I like you. I know. But it might have been a date for him too. It wasn't.

- I know him. - Okay. - Okay. - So hold on, let's get to where I can help you. Like you broke up this hard friendship. Everything you're telling me sounds like you were right on, that you gave somebody multiple chances. You were really clear with boundaries in a loving way.

Um, sounds like your husband's a doofus and I'm going to trust that he's on the up and up. He just didn't think it through. And like, I've been there too. I've been there too. Yeah. He's been, he would be in here speaking to you if, if, if we needed him. Okay. So how can I help you? Let's get right to the question here. How can I help you? I'm hurting her. Say that one more time. I'm hurting her and it hurts me.

And I don't know how to proceed. It hurts me that I'm hurting someone else because she has no one. She has no one. I've asked her. I've asked her to network. I've asked her. I've tried to get even after like after two and a half years that her husband had passed away. I said, you know, we could create you a dating profile. We would double date with you. And she said, well, why can't we just do a threesome?

Hey-oh. No, no, no, no. Not in that way. I know, Renee. I know. I'm playing. But you know. Yeah, no, no. Listen. Listen. Here's the deal. You've heard me say this. If you listen to this show, you've heard me say this. Oh, I do. Yeah. You have to choose when you've got boundaries and you're holding boundaries, people that on the other side of those boundaries will smash up into them to see if they hold.

and they smash up against them, and then it hurts their shoulder, and it hurts their back, and it hurts their face and their head because they keep pounding up against your boundaries, and then they blame you for that pain. Yeah, yeah. You have to choose guilt over resentment every time. Her mother drove past me yesterday, and I waved at her, and she just... Okay, but listen. They don't have the same emotional maturity that you do.

And by the way, my guess is that she's like this with all people who are kind and loving to her. That's what my husband said. She burns them out. She tries to control them. That's why she doesn't have anyone. But listen to me. She's using you to make herself feel better. And so you are right to have been as loving and kind and compassionate as you have been. To say for the sanity of myself,

And for the safety of my marriage, I have to withdraw from this friendship and I wish you the best. And then she gets to decide, am I going to sit at home and be angry and miserable and lonely? You cannot make that choice for her. And because you're a kind, loving person, you're going to feel guilty about holding boundaries. And my guess is you've probably been a peacemaker your whole stinking life.

Yeah. And so feel guilty. But listen, if you don't and you let her just run all over you, you're going to resent your husband. You're going to resent her. You're going to resent her dying mother. You're going to resent everybody. And that's not fair to any of them because that resentment will come because you didn't hold firm to your boundaries, what you know to be right. And so I want you to feel that discomfort and understand that's not yours to remedy. She's a grown woman who's making choices every day of her life. You're right. Those aren't choices that you can make.

The fact that you have treated her with dignity, you've gone on trips to take care of her, you've sat her down when things got crossed and you said, I'm your friend and I love you and you cannot talk to me like that. You've done everything the right way. Hopefully you hit your husband on the head with a rolled up newspaper a few times and said, don't you ever text another woman and go have drinks with her ever again, especially at their house. Are you out of your freaking mind? I hope you did. I did. Oh, not only that. Not only that.

We've been married for almost 35 years, and we've never been as close as we are today because he took the time. It scared him. It should. Once he realized that probably what was in his mind could not have been in her mind, so what was she thinking?

Exactly what somebody would be thinking. What was she thinking? I knew what he was thinking. He was trying to help. He was trying to save the friendship. But I said, how do you think she interpreted this? Renee, we all know how she interpreted it, but here's the deal. Here's the deal. You are right. I think you have been honoring and kind and held your friend accountable.

for treating you like dirt and for running all over your boundaries and putting you in really compromising social situations. And that's not friendship. That's somebody that's using you. And your right to preserve your marriage, your right to preserve your sanity, and all of that hurts because you're a kind, loving person. And so just because it feels bad doesn't mean it's wrong. Just because you feel guilty doesn't mean you've screwed something up or you've made some big mistake. Just...

Social stuff is hard and it stinks sometimes. And I hate that for you, but I want you to tell you, you got my blessing. You've done everything right along the way and you can't control what your former friend decides to do next. And if she chooses loneliness and she chooses misery and her mom chooses just to ignore you like you do on a elementary school playground, then that's what they're choosing to do.

And I'm confident that they wouldn't be in this same situation if that's not how they treated everybody in their life. So I hate that for you. But at the same time, Renee, I hear me say, I'm really proud of how you've handled this. You've done this as well as you could possibly do it. And I wish everybody would follow your lead in dealing with challenging friendship situations because often that sit down that you had changes everything. It's a blessing. It's a gift. Unless the person on the receiving end is incapable of hearing it.

And at that point, you're right to draw boundaries and say, as for me and my house and me and my husband and me and my sanity, we're going to have to withdraw from this friendship. And I wish you the absolute best. Thank you for the call, Renee. You've just made my whole day. And I hate that you're hurting like this. I want you and your husband to go plan something fun. And y'all go find somebody to double date with. Not a threesome, but find someone to go double date with. And y'all go have a blast. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

So my wife and I were meeting the other day about the back-to-school madness that is about to be on us. We've got my travel schedule, her work schedule, our daughter's new school and clothes and forms to fill out and all these online portals and my son's sports schedule and he's got to have shoes every two weeks because his feet won't stop growing and how are we going to pay for all this and on and on and on.

And when we step back and look at our schedule, it's so packed and we haven't even put in the things like exercise, date nights, counseling appointments, church and holiday trips and big home projects. And these are the things that make life worth living. And I listened to y'all. This is your life too. And here's what I've learned. When it comes to taking care of me, my family and my work, I have to begin with the things that matter most and the things that keep me well and whole so I can wade into the chaos and be sturdy and present and strong.

you too. So as you're planning your upcoming end of summer and fall plans, make sure you don't skip date nights, don't skip regular exercise, and don't skip your regular therapy appointments. Yes, therapy can be hard work, but can also help make the rest of your life possible.

When it comes to therapy, I want you to consider calling the team at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy staffed with licensed therapists. It's convenient, it's flexible, and it's suited to fit your schedule.

With a good therapist, you can learn things like positive coping skills, how to set boundaries, how to deal with all the chaos going on in your life, and how to be the best version of yourself. In this upcoming season, make sure you put on your oxygen mask first. Never skip therapy day. Call my friends at BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash deloney today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash deloney.

All right, let's roll out to Denver, Colorado and talk to ABBY. What's up, Abby? Hi, how are you? I'm partying, dude. What about you? Oh, just hanging out. That's what y'all do in Denver.

That was a good loaded weed joke. All right. So what's up? Yeah. Um, so I am actually calling, um, please tell me it's about weed a little, um, looking for a little bit of guidance on how to balance, um, sobriety and responsible substance use. Um,

As a young person living in an area where substance abuse, like substance use is very, a big gray area on like, you know, how to use it, what's responsible, what's over consuming, all that type of stuff. How old are you? I'm 23. Good God. You're so far ahead of the game.

I wish I'd asked these questions when I was 23. You're like light years ahead of most people. Did you have something happen that scared you or is this just something that's been weighing on you? There's not like a real specific event. I...

I grew up in the Midwest in Iowa and drinking is a very big thing there. So I left Iowa and was kind of figuring out how I felt about it and then moved to a state where marijuana was legal and started messing around with that a little bit more and started bartending and just noticed that I had a pattern of not being able or not being good at controlling how much I am consuming. Say your first thing.

I think you told the truth and then you were wise enough to erase it really fast and say the other thing. Say what you said at the beginning. That I grew up around... No, not that. You said, I'm not able to control it. I mean, I just like, you know... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I...

lose control when I am around those. There you go. Okay. And so I think that's, that's a, that's a place I want to start. Um, what does drinking or weed, what does it get you? And I'm not fishing here cause there's, they can provide some good things. Um, what, what, what do they get you? Um, I feel like a good mood, um, more social. Um, and, uh,

less judgment from my peers. Tell me about that. A lot of the people that I grew up around and hang out with drink a lot or smoke a lot. And I find that when I surround myself with people that do not consume as much, I am really good about consuming, but I

if I am around a group of people or a specific person or an environment where I feel like my expectation is to drink, I am thinking like, Oh, what are these people going to say if I don't, are they going to make fun of me? Or am I going to look like I'm too good for them? Man. So there's a couple of things here. Let me take, I'm going to write down a quick note. So back when I was a Dean of students at the law, at a law school, um,

I did a student survey every year. I think it was out of Southern Illinois, and I forgot the acronym for it. But I would hand the survey out to all the students, and I would leave. All incoming 1L students, first-year law students, I would leave, and they would take this, and I would never touch it or see it, and they would ship it to –

another university to run all the data. But then they would send me back all of the answers. And I would get all the first year law students back in the big theater and in the same room, and I would read the data back to them. And it was a case in social norming, which is just nerd talk for, I want to tell you what everyone else is thinking. And also I want to tell you what everyone else is doing.

And I was always stunned by the gap. Two particular gaps caught me every single time. One was the gap between how much everybody thought everybody was drinking and smoking versus how much people actually were drinking and smoking versus how much people actually wanted to be drinking and smoking.

And the gap was always everybody assumed that all of their classmates were drinking and smoking way more than was actually happening in real life. And almost across the board, nobody wanted to be drinking and smoking as much as they were.

So that was a big one. The second one, and I'm not reading into what you're saying. I'm just putting this out there because you talked about it makes you feel a little bit funnier. It's a social lubricant, right? It makes the interactions a little bit funnier. It makes you be the person you imagine you wish you could be, right? Yes. The stat that used to break my heart, especially as the father of a young son and of a young daughter, was how often people drank alcohol.

so that they could end up in more sexual situations. And I looked at that and I used to always tell students, if you have to drink to override your body's innate systems that are trying to protect you so that you can become something that you think other people want you to be, please listen to your body.

You're sober body. Okay. So that's, that's, that's, that's dad lecture. Number one, dad lecture. Number two is this. You will. Um, and man, I wish I had the stats in front of me. I think over the next five to 10 years, you will be within about 15% of the net worth of the people you spend the most time around.

You will be similar in values. You will be similar in how much you read. You'll be similar in kids and marriage, etc. And the reason that's important is you just laid out two really important paths for you. You have, like most people, if they're honest, not everybody, but most people,

Find that when I get going with drinking or with smoking weed or whatever the vice is Some people is just watching one netflix series and then netflix is like hey just you sit there I'll just start the next one for you and you're like, okay, let's just do another one Whatever your vice is once you get going you've established man. It's just tough stop You've also established man. If i'm around people who aren't drinking and smoking. I just don't I don't do it that much

And when I'm with people who are partying and going down the rabbit hole, I get over my head. And for me, as someone who cares about you, I want you to hear you've got one path that you're like, hey, this is going to end up in a place that's potentially statistically going to give me a better outlook on my life and better outcomes in my life. And then there's another path. You're a bartender. You can see, right? You know where this could also go, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And that was, seeing that, I was like, I don't want to be 55, 60, 70, hanging out in a bar every night, getting along with all the 20-year-olds. Like, I don't want to. There you go. That's not the future that I want. Yeah. So you've got a ringside seat, too. You got to lean over the edge and be like, oh, this is the next 40 years of my life if I don't make some changes.

Yeah. And so the question I always want people to ask when they're like, hey, should I smoke weed? Should I drink? All that kind of stuff. Obviously, legal age and legality, all that stuff comes into play. But assuming you're of legal age and you're a place where everything's whatever, I always want people to ask, what is it getting you? And if it allows you to not feel what your body's trying to tell you, then stay away. If it's allowing you to...

I duct tape over feelings of hopelessness or loneliness or I'm just bored or I need to go back to school. I need to go do some stuff. I need to call my mom and I'm just going to have a drink. Then pass. And I'll also tell you, if you're with friends and you're like who are going to be responsible and there's just kind of a social thing, everybody has a drink or two, then knock your lights out.

But you have to know for you why I'm doing this. And especially I'm doing something I don't want to do. And I think that's important life for your sex and intimacy in your future, for your professional life, for what you want to do, like as a, as a working mom, as someone who doesn't want to have kids, like whatever it is, as you look forward, I just don't want to do this. I don't want you at 23 practicing sex.

do like, how do I do things that I don't really want to do? But there's a lot of people around, so they kind of expect it of me. So how does that sound? I know it's like an old man telling you like in my day, we walked up school, both uphill, both ways. But how does that, how does that hit you? Yeah. I mean, that's kind of like the thought processes I've been going through recently. Um, like,

Am I using this to feel different or do I have a purpose? Am I doing this because I want to or because I feel like I need to? It's been hard sometimes because I feel like when I'm out, I get overwhelmed by like, I don't know how to assess this right now. So I'm just going to do what's the least resistance and move forward. Abby is somebody who's sat with, I can't even count.

How many young 18 to 25 year old women I've sat with behind closed doors that, that way of entering into a social situation, like scares me to death for you. Yeah. It's put me in some pretty compromising situations and I,

I don't want to be in those anymore. And like, I know that I'm the only one who can make sure that I am not. I'm so proud of you. So can I give you the advice I would give anybody? Myself, I've taken this advice, my kids, my friends, I would give anybody this advice. If you're trying to balance or trying to dig into, am I using this, am I having a drink because it's fun? Or am I having a drink because I'm trying to cover up something unhealthy?

We have reached a point when most of the uber successful people I know have almost entirely stopped drinking or have cut back dramatically. And most of it is simply because people are using wearables and they're seeing how devastating it is to their sleep or how devastating it is to their dietary patterns. And so you're asking this question in a season. If you'd asked this question 20 years ago, everybody would have laughed at you.

You're asking this question now. And so here's my challenge to you. Go 60 days and just don't have a drink. Okay. And don't smoke. And then when people ask you, like, be like, no, I'm off the sauce for 60 days. Or you like, no, dude, it's messing up my sleep. I just want, I just, it's messing up my sleep. It's like, and it gives you a little off ramp.

But just give it a shot and see how you feel and see what situations you don't find yourself in and feel yourself saying, no, I don't want to go. I'm not coming back to your apartment. I'm not doing this. I'm not going over here. And find yourself beginning to...

I don't know, become stronger? Is that the right word? Yeah. So I kind of, I did that in January. I only did it for 30 days. So I will definitely do it for 60 because I've been kind of toying around with it. But I, towards the end of the year, I was like,

smoking every day and drinking pretty regularly and bartending. We'd clean up the bar and then the bar back and I would have a drink and I'd be there until 5am chatting and I was just over it. So I went the month of January completely sober, no anything. And I really enjoyed it. But I...

I guess I did miss the social aspect of it a little bit. Totally. And I... Yeah, I guess that's... I don't know how to... I definitely do want to try it for 60 days to try and see...

how it feels for longer, but I don't know what, how to know when it's like appropriate. I mean, I guess questioning. Yeah. Questioning myself. Here's, here's the magic. You can't just remove it without putting something else in its place. And so, um,

I'm like you. I like going out. I like having fun. I'm going to a comedy show tomorrow night. Kelly had a big birthday bash that I went to. And I just feel terrible the next morning if I have a drink. So I go and I have club soda. I go and I have Diet Cokes most of the time.

Yeah. And after a long stretch of, of road of being on the road and I finally had my last event, I had a beer in a, in a airport the other day and it was awesome. Right. But it wasn't trying to cover up anything. It was, I've, I've completed this task and I'd, I'd put on the, on the calendar, I'm going to do that and have some gummy candies. Like I'd put it out there. Right. And so you have to replace, okay, where are you going to get social time?

And I'll tell you, if the only place you get social time is three drinks in until 5 a.m., those conversations when you're 23 feel heavy and weighty and magical, but they're not. I mean, they're kind of, you know that, right? They're kind of lame. Somebody's hitting on you kind of the whole time. It's just not great. And so... Yeah, I always woke up and was like, God, what did I... Just go to bed. Why did I say... Yeah, just go to bed. And yeah, and then you start replaying, what did I say? Did I say something? Yes, exactly. So...

If the only time you have social connection is from 2.30 a.m. till 5 a.m., having free drinks at the bar you work at, I'm going to tell you, somebody who cares about you, you got to do a better job of making friends.

Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. And you work at night, so that means you got to do it during the day, which is even weirder, right? Right. Yeah. I have realized that it's harder to make friends as an adult after moving away from all my friends. It's the worst, Abby. It's the worst. Yes. It's the worst. And by the way, I'll tell you this, and you didn't even ask this, but this is just me putting out into the universe. If you've gone out and done your thing...

and you decide to go back home and be around friends and family that you care and love about, you didn't lose. You actually won. You got to go see the world and realize, you know what? This is actually more important to me than something else. Than like, yeah, I'm going to go see the, man, you know what is really important to me? Friends, family, connection, community. But again, asking yourself, where do I have community and connection? Where do I have laughter and joy?

Do I want to be a bartender for the rest of my life? If not, dude, you're 23. Let's get on it. Let's go take some classes. Let's go to school. Let's go become an electrician, whatever it is you want to do out in the world. But let's begin to ask ourselves, where do we want to be at 27? Where do we want to be at 29? And more importantly, who do I want to be at 27? And do I want to really be over my head? Because I've proven to myself, man, this like having a drink feels good. Smoking feels good. But

I don't become the best version of myself and I don't become who I want to be. And you've seen it. You've seen the 60 and 70 year olds, the 50 year olds hanging out with 20 year olds at a bar trying to be cool.

So let's create an alternative vision. Let's follow that. I'm proud of you for being 23 and asking these questions. You're way ahead of the game. You're way ahead of the game. Let's go 60 days. Anybody can white knuckle something for 30 days, 60 days, and it starts to become a way of being. And you really have to challenge yourself and ask hard questions. Let's take 60 days and then call me back. We'll have you back on. I want to see how it's going and what you're doing to make connections. We'll be right back.

Hey, what's up? Deloney here. Listen, you and me and everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point. In my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com.

All right, we're back. Am I the problem, Kelly? Go for it. All right, this is from Kat in Niagara Falls. I hosted a barbecue at my house for an out-of-town cousin and her family. I invited my siblings, their spouses, and their children. My sister-in-law, who is a vegetarian, asked me what was on the menu for dinner. I told her what we were having, which included a handful of vegetarian options. I told her what we were having,

She was upset that there weren't more entrees that would fit her dietary needs. Get out of here. Get out of town. You're not the problem. The guest is. Let me finish. Let me finish. Gosh. I told her she was welcome to bring whatever she wished, that we had no problem cooking something especially for her.

She said she felt funny having to bring her own food. Oh, gosh. So they ended up not coming to the barbecue after I told her that her food preferences were low on my list of things to worry about. When I had a menu that had multiple vegetarian options that she chose not to have. Shout it out. And that I was willing to cook whatever she wanted if she wanted to bring it. Am I the problem? No. No. You are what's right with the world. You're hospitable and kind and thoughtful and

And nanny nanny boobie was like, it's not good enough for me. I need you to bend the arc of the universe to what I want. And if you don't, I feel funny having to shut up. Good God almighty. That's just like a big box of farts on a pony on the back of a rocket ship going to a distant planet that we haven't even named yet.

I can't, I don't, I don't understand. Like, dude, I don't understand how people operate like that. What a strange way to move about the universe. Does that person just stop on a sidewalk and be like, I don't like the way this crack formed. I'm going to stand here until they fix it. No, you just step over, keep walking. If you walk in and I was going to make an Arby's reference, but this person doesn't eat at Arby's. Actually, most people don't eat at Arby's. That was probably bad. That's bad on me.

No, you're not the problem. You're a kind, generous, hospitable person who just was faced with somebody who has found a way to like squeeze power out of the world around them by trying to weaponize kindness. And like, oh, if you were my friend, you would really come on now. It's like getting concert tickets for free and being like, oh, these are the seats. Good grief.

Ugh. Okay, I'm over. I'm going to act like a grown-up now. What do you think, Kelly? I think you're 100% right. And I applaud Kat for not bending to it.

Yes. She's like, nope, it's low on my list of things to worry about. And it should be. I'm having a huge party. But it sucks because chances are the brother, because it was her sister-in-law, so the brother probably didn't get to come either. Well, brother needs to grow up. Well, maybe he did. We don't know. We don't know. That wasn't in there. But I applaud Kat for being like, here's the options. You can bring something, and I'm out. Okay, and here's the deal. To people with dietary preferences everywhere,

It's your responsibility to be the grown-up and to maneuver your particular desires in the world. But I can't have – okay, if you can't, whatever. It's a desire. It's a choice. It's a have-to.

I have a peanut allergy kid because I used to make fun of people when I was in high school. And so the Lord gave me a peanut allergy kid as like retribution. I earned that. I was not nice all the time. So it's my job. It's my job to either have snacks for my young child to ask the question,

And if we enter into a space with tons of peanuts, it's my job, right? And I'm always on some weird diet. Always. It's my job. What a weird world. What a strange world. Be hospitable and be kind. And if you have friends that are vegetarians or anti-glutens or whatever, Kelly's like, extra gluten, please. All the gluten. All the gluten. And you are just a joy to be around. But here's the deal.

Just be responsible for your own adultness. Your own adultness, that's all. And adultness isn't even a word. See, you're making me say words that aren't even real. Love you guys. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Bring your own food. Bye.