We Kicked Our Daughter Out After She Got Birth Control
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Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. She came to us a couple months ago and asked about getting on birth control. We were very clear and we told her, you get on it yourself, then we are not supporting you. We found out that she had went out and bought her own. And so we said, this is it. Like, you made that choice. And so essentially, yes, we kicked her out.

What up, what up, what up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, talking about everything, relationships and emotional and mental health, whatever you got going on in your life. For the last 20 years, I've been sitting right next to people of all ages, of all stages of life when things just fall apart, when the best laid plans go sideways and we're left wondering what in the world we're going to do next.

If you want to be on this show, this show is real people going through real challenges in real time. Right. And that's a lot of reels. That's an embarrassing amount of reels, but it's the truth. You want to be on this show? I'd love to have you give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask a S K and Kelly, before we get to the first call Instagram people, what would you say?

I had one of the coolest. So my wife was out of town for basically a week and I had to fly out for a speaking event. I flew back in and it was just straight dad, 24, seven, three, six, five. It was good. And on, we're doing a lot of yard work and stuff, trying to make the house look nice, especially with mom coming home. And we just have a ton of summer chore stuff now.

And I could see my daughter was just slumping around because my son was working outside doing a bunch of like, he's just a bigger kid and I'm doing a bunch of stuff and she's just, and I could, I recognized it at first. I thought she was whining. She wanted a purpose. She wanted to roll. She wanted to participate. And I was like, are you ready? I'm gonna hire you to mow. Now, a couple of years ago, I got this electric mower. You just push a button. Welcome to the future. And it just, it self propelled. Right. She, she,

is a tiny little thing. And she grew a foot. And you're going to let me mow? And I'm like, yep. And we got this whole back field. And dude, she got after it. And I was so proud. And I told her, of course, I'm going to pay her obnoxiously well. But I said, you're going to make a bunch of money. And here's what I need you to do. She walked me through it.

The combination of people cheering and celebrating on the internet. And I just took a picture of her mowing. Right. I did see that. Yeah. And you said something about, no, it's like, it'd be easier to do it yourself, but it's good for her. It would be nice. It would look nicer and all that. But dude, I was so, I just was so proud. I was overwhelmed with how proud I was. It was hot. And she was just getting after it. The number of people who wrote or wrote to me directly about this.

she should be wearing more clothes than that or how dare you make your kids mow the yard like they can learn grit with grades and stuff i mean the vitriol was so wild it was wild and i even responded to what i never do that and i was like i wish you i wish you joy in your life for just how you see the world in such negative this is the way parents exploit their kid like what are you talking about

And I had that brief moment when I thought, we're all doomed. We're all doomed. But then the people who were in support, vastly, vastly, vastly outnumbered. So I had to remind myself, I'm just focusing on the negative and we're all in this together and we're going to be all right. Yeah, they don't need to come to my house because child labor is real. That's the strangest thing. The idea of asking a child to participate in how the home functions is

And the pushback I got on that was so bizarre. Just bizarre. As like in the real world, what do working hard on grades represent? It's a proxy for you can show up and do actual work in the world, not worksheets, but alas. And we make like the chores that our kids do, they have to be something that

to them. Like, both of our kids have to clean their own bathroom. Yeah, I don't pay you for that. Yeah, no, we don't pay for that. That's just human existence. Right. But it's something that you live in this house and then there's extra things that they'll do. Like, my daughter will go out and weed. Yeah. And then, great, I'll give you money for that. But, you know, clean the bathroom. Because mama got to smoke, right? Yeah, yeah.

I don't smoke, y'all. Just FYI. I don't. But no, chores are good for kids. They're the best for kids. And then finding a job that is a little bit beyond what they can handle. And I watched her frustrated to try to... This mower was as big as she was, trying to turn it, figure it out. It was so amazing. And she... I can't describe to you how much taller she stood. And I don't know. It's pretty amazing on both ends of the spectrum. But...

Give your kids hard jobs to do. That's all I'll say about that. All right, now, me being annoying is over. Let's go out to Minneapolis and talk to Ryan and Katie. What's up, Ryan and Katie? Hey, Dr. John. How are you? I'm all right. How are you guys? Good. We're doing great. Doing all right. Fantastic. Thanks for calling in. So what's going on?

Yeah. So just for, uh, just for some context, uh, so we have a, we have a 16 year old daughter. Um, we're kind of hitting a kind of a rock and hard place, if you will. So we co-parent, uh, so we have, you know, essentially kind of a blended family. Um, so she lives, uh, almost half the time with us and then the other half with her dad and her step-mom, um,

And she is, she's under our car insurance, our health insurance, phone bill, you know, you name it. She came to us a couple months ago and asked about getting on birth control. She recently started dating a boy and she came to us with that. And, you know, we, we

strong believers go to church as much as we can. Um, and so the first thing obviously we thought of was absolutely not, not happening. She, she wanted to go to, you know, um, a center to do this. Um, and obviously with her being on our insurance, um, you know, they essentially needed our approval. Um,

So it's game to us. And so again, our first thought was absolutely not. And we told her that if you choose to go there by yourself, which unfortunately in this day and age, you can, you don't need adult supervision. You don't need a sign off or anything.

We were very clear and we told her, if you go by yourself or if you do over the counter, what have you, and you get on it yourself, then we are not supporting you as far as insurance wise. And you will either need to find your own insurance or talk to your dad about going on his insurance. And basically just saying, you know, if you want to make an adult choice like that, then you are, you're considering yourself an adult. And so you need to support yourself.

Did that include housing too?

Um, it, it did. Yes. Like we were very, very firm in that. And again, she's always had a room here, but we were just, it hurt number one. But then at the same time, we were like, you know, we weren't model citizens at 16, 17, 18 years old. Um, and, and, and we live with regret and we told her that it's like, you know, we, we, we feel that regret even, even being married for as long as we have now. Um, it,

It is. It's baggage. And, you know, she's a 16 year old. Her brain isn't fully developed, but she just doesn't understand that. And so, yes, to some parents, it'd be extremely strict. But at the same time, you know, it's she does have her dad's house to live in, which her dad and her stepmom live.

They certainly didn't encourage her, but they were fine with bringing her because they're in their words. It's better to be safe than sorry. Right. And so honestly, Dr. John, like the biggest, the biggest wall for Katie and I was, do we,

sacrifice our beliefs as Christians and our values or do we risk damaging the relationship? And, you know, in hindsight, I'm glad we didn't sacrifice our values because a couple weeks later after she initially brought it up, Katie moved her car for just moving it. We weren't digging or hunting or looking for anything. And

we found out that she had went out and bought her own. And so we said, this is it. Like you, you made that choice. And so essentially, yes, we kicked her out and said, you're, you're kind of on your own. Um, again, she's always had her dad's house to go to and, um, she, she made that choice. And so she's, she's been living with her dad since. Uh, and again, this is probably a month or two has passed. Do we, do we sacrifice, uh,

damaging the relationship to, you know, withhold our beliefs as, you know, as believers in Christ and reserving sex for marriage. And even if we didn't do that ourselves, but just to try and give our daughter the best chance at,

as little a baggage as possible and to have the most rewarding and fulfilling marriage with her, you know, future husband as possible. Um, yeah, I, I'm, I'm going to be, so two things. One, I'm, I'm grateful for you calling. Okay. And I, I know that here's what I know. I know that y'all stood firm on what you think and thought is right and was right. And also know that,

that has to be killing you or you wouldn't have called fair. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, shoot. All right. So I'm going to go unfiltered a little bit. And my promise on this show is to always tell the truth. Is that fine? Absolutely. Okay. So I have a little girl and she's eight. All right. And based on my experience and my wife's experience as elementary, middle school and high school and college, um,

educators, we've already started having the conversations as crazy as that is. Okay. And my son is 14. Obviously we've been having the conversation for conversations for years. I can think of no more potentially damaging thing to the developing understanding of what love and relationship looks like on a potential future marriage. I would put sexual abuse at number one.

I would put getting kicked out of my mom and dad's house at 16 at number two. I can't think of a more terrifying, damaging, frightening thing for a 16-year-old daughter to find out there is a line to which you are not welcome in our presence anymore. And we're going to even go to the... We're going to go searching for that to make sure you haven't crossed it. Ah, we found it. And you're out. Now, I can't wrap my head around my...

no even secular psychologists nobody in their right mind would say being sexually active at 16 is smart wise intelligent otherwise quote-unquote okay i don't know any psychologist counselor therapist if they if they are suggesting a 16 year old should be sexually active um then i would suggest they should have their license removed because you're right it's a child they're a kid yeah the challenge here is an old paul thomas anderson quote i'm sure he didn't make it up but um

You may be through with the past, but the past is not through with you. And so what we have here is for whatever reason, a divorce happened a long time ago, or there's a child was born a long time ago. And now the child is 16 and that child is being forced to reckon with two different households with two different rules. And y'all can say, or they can say that they're not encouraging them.

But for a 16-year-old, you're either for or you're against. There's not a lot of gray with a 16-year-old. Right. So if I'm taking you, if I'm willing to take you to put you on birth control, I'm consenting. Right? I'm saying it's – I'm giving you the affirmative message that this is going to be – we know kids are just going to be kids. And they're going to do it anyway. So dot, dot, dot. Right? Right.

And so you have the 16 year old who's caught between my loyal to my dad and my stepmom or my loyal to my mom and my stepdad. That's too much to ask a 16 year old. And if that 16 year old is in my house, I've got a whole bunch more control and I have a whole bunch more ability to play defense. But for whatever reason, the adults in this child's life split up and created two separate households. And so my ability to play defense is much more compromised.

I can't because half the time or more, she's going to stay somewhere else with a different set of rules and a different set of values. And that was the bargain we struck up and we split up. And so what I would tell you is, and we'll get to the sex part and the birth control part and all that. If I have one message that I would give to parents over and over and over, it's this. Absent, you have made my house unsafe. Meaning you're doing drugs inside my house and it's not safe. Or you're bringing people to my house that you won't take out of your life and my home is unsafe.

I never want my kid to believe there's a line that they can cross where I won't love them. I've talked to a woman whose son was convicted of sexually abusing children, like a late teenage kid. And I said, because she was asking, do I hire the best lawyers and do I burn this thing to the ground? I said, no, your husband, I mean, your child is a predator. He needs to be off the street. She said, well, what do I do? And I said, you can hold his hand in court.

Right. As, as, as he has taken out of the community, he does not need to be in public. And you know that, but he also needs to know his mom loves him despite the evil. Right. So I'm telling you that to tell you this, that's a tough, tough, tough decision. So I want to back out and ask you guys, how do you reconcile? How do you reconcile biblical value? A, we believe sex should be reserved for marriage and anyone in our life who violates that has to be removed from our life.

versus the biblical value of forgiveness and grace and I'm going to be a parent who's always in the life of my child. I'm not going to cast my child out. How do you reconcile those two biblical values? That's a great question. Let me ask you this. How much, and I hate to put you all on the spot here, so tell me I'm wrong, okay? Tell me I'm wrong on any of this. Challenge any of this. Tell me I'm an idiot on any of this. Not going to hurt my feelings, okay? Okay.

How much of your anger and frustration is with the other parents? Yeah, that's a great question. A little bit more context for you, Dr. John, is Abby, our daughter, is my child from a previous relationship. We were not married. And so there is some anger and resentment. I was 16 when I got pregnant with her.

And he left and did his thing. And so, yeah, there probably is some lingering anger and resentment. And that was 16 years ago. So tell me about, you've walked down this road. Tell me about how your parents handled you when you were 16.

Yeah. I unfortunately also came from a broken family. My dad was married a few times and my mom left when I was very, very young. And so I didn't have a mother figure in my life at that time when I was pregnant or when I got pregnant. And it was my dad who supported my siblings and myself. And he wasn't absent, but he was busy. Yeah.

And, um, but it happened and he was supportive. He was upset at first, but he, you know, from what I can remember said, we'll get through this together. So you actually walked the path that I was going to bring up. And that is this, a 16 year old, well, all, all children, but that's an, that's an especially acute window.

when a human being is growing more than they will, or aging more, to say it that way, than they will ever age in their life in a tiny window of time. And they are losing their sense of themselves on a daily basis and trying to cobble together a sense of self from social media, from friends, from teachers, from coaches, from parents, from romantic interest, from pets, right? They're cobbling this together and it's like this

ongoing duct taping puzzle thing in real time. It's chaos. You experience that. What a child is going to seek more than anything is some sort of stable connection. I'm anchored into something. And one of the things that gets me the most riled up is when someone attaches God to that.

that there's a couple of things you can do. You can smoke, you can drink alcohol, you can say bad words, and you can have premarital sex, and God's out on you. Second is mom and dad, parents. And a child is going to seek connection and seek connection and seek connection and seek connection. And if one, in this case, if one set of parents cuts that connection off, and this is just 20 years working with young people, it will accelerate development

her going to find somebody that is stable that will look at her and say, I see you and I value you and I love you, even if it's just for a minute. And you've walked that line, right? Absolutely. And so my response here is to applaud y'all as parents for not wanting your daughter to be sexually active and to really trying to figure out what are the ways we can keep that from happening.

The challenge is not to put your anger and frustration and to relive your trauma and put that on a kid and say, you carry what happened to me back when I was 16. You carry this embarrassment and shame. You carry my frustration with this guy who left me 16 years ago and his new family to not make her carry that.

And so what I would suggest to you guys is it's not a compromise of your biblical values to double down and triple down and quadruple down on loving your kid. Kids are smart and savvy. They understand that at this house, here's the rules that I got to live by. And then at that house, these are the rules we're going to live by. They know that and they can toggle and balance.

But my suggestion to any parent going through what you're going through is to not double down on there's a point with which you can no longer be in relationship with me, mom and dad. But the opposite. You can't escape my love. You couldn't do anything where I won't love you. In this house, you can't be sexually active because I love you.

In this house, there will be no boyfriends coming to stay past whenever. And I'm going to turn all the lights on. I'm going to be obnoxious because I'm your parent. And we will, dad, stepdad, you'll take your daughter on dates. Are you kidding me? Yes. Mom, you'll take her out. Have you told her your story? I have. Okay. Mm-hmm.

So it's not going to be time for what I would call like I have a bad habit of grandstanding. Like we're going to have this big event talk. I did one the other day with my son to talk about alcohol. And I was like, today we're talking about alcohol. And he just rattled off like nine things. I know, Dad. I'm going to be tempted. It's going to be around. I'm not allowed to do it. You're always safe to call. And I was like, all right, guess this conversation. You know what I mean? But I want mom, I want you to make it a weekly ritual that you take your kid out.

You take your daughter out for breakfast. You take your daughter out for dinner. Dad, I want you to have a stepdad. I want you to have like a journal that y'all share just y'all too. And you put it on her bed when you're done with it. And she writes in it. And before she leaves, she's got to put it on your bed. Even if it just says, this is dumb, but I want to, I want her to never feel like she has to go somewhere else to connect.

The world's going to drag at her and her boyfriends are going to drag on her and the world is going to want pieces of her enough. I want her so freaking anchored into y'all. Is that going to keep her from having sex? No, it's not. Kids are going to experiment. They're curious. They want to know what's cool, what's not cool, all that kind of stuff. But maybe it might.

I think here's and I'm thinking this through in real time. OK, so forgive me if I land in a place that I'm going to change my mind on in a few weeks. The data tells me that the more religious a state is. Let me say it this way. The states that report higher religiosity have higher teen pregnancy rates.

And I don't know the causality to that. I've never dug into that. My just snapshot judgment is because people don't talk about sex. They just say, just say no, or they don't say we, they don't speak clearly. We really want you to save. Here's our experience. We want you to save yourself for a marriage. This is our values. This is what we want to teach you. And if you're going to violate what we want for you, and you're going to figure a way to sneak around and X, Y, and Z, please be safe. And here's how to do that.

And that's a tricky balance for a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old, an 18-year-old. But I just look at the data, okay, of increased teen pregnancy rates. If I just had a kid in my house, I would probably lean towards not having, not taking a 16-year-old out to have birth control and really doing what I could to play defense at my house. And I wish there was a better word for that.

I'm not opposed to 16 year olds don't have a right to go on dates, regardless of what people say about normal teen development. They don't have a right to those type of things. Those are, those are privileges doled out as kids show responsibility and trustworthiness. And if my teenager is split in time with somebody else who says things like, well, they're going to do it anyway. And I think he's cute and funny, man. I feel like we're playing with fire then.

So I've talked a lot at y'all talk back, throw back at me, say, I reject y'all. I reject what you're saying. Tell me what you're thinking. Yeah, no, that's, I mean, it's, it's for sure something to think about. Um, and I think great, great advice. I mean, it's, uh, it's hard. It's hard being a parent and a teenage, you know, of a teenager and also a blended family. Um, but yeah,

Yeah, it's just... Are you still close with your dad, Katie? He's actually passed away now. He passed away. Were you all close up until the end? We were. I think it's worth the exercise for you and Ryan. I think it's worth the exercise for you to go back to that moment, that terrifying moment when you're 16 years old and you find out you're pregnant and he gets mad and says, we're going to figure this out. That he was in a moment of, I need a parent now.

I need boundaries, I need love in the worst kind of way that he doubled down on connection and his clumsy crooked dad trying to figure it out with a pregnant 16 year old daughter kind of way. Yeah. I think that's worthy of an exercise. I also, when I think of biblical values, guys, I keep going back to the prodigal son and the dad just waiting out in the yard. And I think of, I think of Jesus drawn in the dirt to protect the woman who was just caught cheating on her husband.

I just keep doubling down on, I just, I keep going back to the person of Jesus in the stories is someone who steps into it and says, no, I see you, you're safe here with me. And then exhales and says, hey, there's another way to live. Instead of you're gonna live the right way or you are no longer in relationship with me, period. And maybe, man, I'm sure there's some theological debates and people could, we could go round and round and that'd be a fun discussion. I love those discussions, but I'm just thinking about with my two kids.

Seems the picture that comes up when I think of biblical value is over and over and over and over. You cannot, you can never get away from me. I'm coming for you. And also I don't want 16 year olds having sex, right? I don't want 16 year olds having sex either. Yeah. I think a lot, Dr. John is just, it's, it's, it's, it's really challenging. Just co-parenting. It's a nightmare because it's like, and like you said earlier, it's just, there's two different sets of rules and it's,

we might be more lenient on some areas than the other household and vice versa, you know? And so. Absolutely. It's just challenging regardless. It's a nightmare. What I, what I, my, my challenge to you two is don't make the 16 year old carry the weight of that challenge. Find the places in 16 is old enough to be very, very direct and,

Find the places where y'all align, where as co-household, I mean, as two different households and find the places where you're different and sit down with your 16 year old and say, here's where we're different. And we're not going to budge on these because we love you. And our set of experiences has given us this. And I know you get a different picture over there, but we're asking you to respect these here.

So here's the million dollar question that I'll let you guys go. If I'm y'all and I'm finding myself in your exact situation right now, I would reach out to that 16 year old girl and both of you take her out. Let me just, I'm tell you what I would do. I'm gonna use the word. I, I would take her out with her mom. God, I'm gonna get all choked up thinking about my daughter here. I would take my daughter out and we would go somewhere private. And I would say, I need you to know I got scared and I, and I blew it and I'm sorry.

There's not a thing you can do that I won't ever stop loving you. And there's not a thing you could do outside of threaten my life or become very unsafe that this home is not going to be open for you. I screwed up. I got scared. I remember back when I was 16, we swore we would always protect you. And I freaked out. I'm sorry. And I want you to be here as much as possible. And if you're going to be here, it's what's going to cost you. You're going to have to go on a date with me once a month. And you're going to have to go eat breakfast with your mom once a week.

And you and I are going to journal back and forth together. And we're going to rebuild our relationship together. And no, we don't want you having sex. I think it's a terrible idea. It's not good. It's not good. It's not good. And we love you. I don't ever want you to go into some hairy-legged 16-year-old knuckle-headed little boy for love because we love you. That's what I would do. That's the best I can tell you. That's what I would do.

I'm really grateful for the call, Ryan and Katie. This one's tough, tough, tough. Co-parenting is hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard, especially when it comes to sex and intimacy and birth control and entertainment, all those things that we're trying to balance and reconcile. But when it comes to a young kid all the way through 18, all the way through 21, and this is just 20 plus years of me sitting with 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 through 25 year olds, I'm always going to double down on what's a way I can

increase connection, not decrease. What's the way I can get this kid closer to me and I can get closer to this kid? Then what's this, what's a way I can make this kid prove that they're worthy of being in my, in my home or my presence. And maybe I'm on an Island, but that's the way I live my life. Thanks for the call. Ryan and Katie, y'all are brave and I'm really grateful for you. Call anytime. We'll be right back.

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All of it. Invest in yourself with Organifi. All right, let's go out to Cedar City, Utah and talk to J-I-double-L. What's up, Jill? Hi, Dr. John. What's up? My question is, is staying or leaving the best for me and my kids? Oh, man. And that's a difficult question for me to ask. This is my second marriage. Yeah, what got us here?

Um, I, I just, I don't even know where to go from here. I'm sorry. I'm a little emotional. No, be as emotional as you need to. It's okay. Oh, thank you. Tell me what's going on. I just feel like we go through this complete emotional rollercoaster all the time. And I'm so confused. I am so confused. Um, one day my husband is saying that he never wanted to get married and he wasn't ready. And he, he did it because I was excited. Um,

And then the next it's, no, I want to work this out. I want this to, we can do better. And I, I've just, I have four kids at home. I'm just terrified. And I'm so, so confused. I can't even make sense of my own emotions anymore. And, you know, maybe it's all me. I don't, I don't really know at this point, but I guess then the majority of why I feel this way is because we've been married to a little over two and a half years and we

we haven't done a lot as a, as typically what married people would do. We have two homes between us. We, any financial assistance that I've needed, I've had to, you know, ask for, he has given me gifts, generous gifts and stuff, but it's felt like a boyfriend girlfriend situation. And, uh, do y'all live in two different homes? Yeah. Yeah. We go back and forth. We have a schedule between us and we try and make it work the best that we can. Why, why do y'all live like that?

Well, I did have these conversations before we were married and then I've had them throughout the marriage. I have had important and difficult conversations. We did talk about finding a place together and it just hasn't worked out so far. But why haven't one of you just sold your house and moved in with the other person? I'm actually in a rental. I...

Because my kids have to go to school at this district here where we are, according to my divorce. And, you know, we put numbers on paper and stuff. So is this guy that you married, is he just blowing off what y'all agreed to? Because he knew coming into this marriage that you're bound legally to this particular location. And he said, till death do us part, I do.

Yeah, truthfully, I'll be completely honest. I really feel like he has not wanted to be in this marriage. Yeah, if he's keeping his own house, that's a big sign number one. Do you all have any shared kids together? No. Okay. Is he abusive? Are you safe? No. Yeah, I'm safe. Okay. And that's where I'm stuck is he's a very good man. He's not. I feel safe with him, but I'm... He's not a good man. He hasn't told you the truth.

And he's stringing you along. He might be nice, but he's not telling you the truth. He won't even live with his wife. And he knows that you're bound where you are. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's not a good man. It's not a caring man. I tend to side with him. I think he's telling you the truth that he didn't want to hurt your feelings. He just went through with it. Does that sound about right?

Uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've been in counseling since we were married. Okay. What is your counselor? Surely your counselor has helping you with this thing, like choosing reality. Here's the re here's real reality as it sits. This guy doesn't want to be married to you. And I think on certain days he wants to want to be married to you. Do you get the difference? Yeah. Those are the days he's like, no, no, we're going to work it out. We're going to, we're going to make this thing happen. Cause he sees your tears or he loves those little kids or you'll have a night of,

A rare night of great sex and intimate connection. And he's like, we're going to work this out. And he just goes back to his place. Yeah, that is what happens. You know, my heart's breaking for you, Jill. So he's not on the phone. So I don't want to talk about him too much. Let me ask you, are you clinging to this thing because you can't go through another divorce because you still want to do it again?

Like, tell me about what you're feeling. Cause I don't think you're crazy. And I think that, you know, you're not crazy. I think it's easier for you to think that you're crazy than it is for you to like, when you say things like, I just don't know, I can't trust myself anymore. I think you can. I just think you have a real time grasp of what it means to actually trust yourself. Yeah, you're right. I, I'm terrified. I have four little kids there. I mean, not little, little, but my decisions affect their life. And, um,

I'm terrified to start over. I don't know how I'll make it on my own. And I don't want to hurt my kids anymore. I know. I know. Where's their birth dad? He's here in the same town I'm in. And we actually have a really good relationship to co-parent our kids. Good. Is he paying child support? Yeah, he's very supportive and we get along great. Excellent. This is a strange question. What does he think about your new husband?

Um, he's thought he's, he's great. He thinks it's strange, but he tries to not meddle in our person, my personal business. Um, why'd y'all get divorced? Seem to, um, because of me, I primarily was the reason. And so hold on, tell me about that. Cause I don't believe that might've been some of you.

Well, you know, we've been through pretty much everything you can go through, but I was the one who, I had an emotional affair. And so I... And you both chose that you couldn't work through an emotional affair after four kids? Yeah, we'd already tried to work through other things prior to that. And, you know, we have a good friendship. Okay. We worked through our stuff and we co-parent very well. We love our kids. Okay.

But yeah, it was my fault. It was more my fault. Okay. Well, I want to separate what you did, having an emotional affair, with a choice to end a marriage. Because you can fall for somebody. You can have deep emotional connection with somebody and all that. And you can also choose to cut that off and to reimagine and rebuild your marriage if you're both in. And so those are two separate things. And sometimes they get lumped together. Mm-hmm.

Often emotional affairs come from a place that's co-created too, right? Yeah. So here's what I'm telling you. You've got a bunch of hard choices to make up in front of you, and they're going to all come with different ramifications. You're going to choose to stay married to a guy that doesn't want to be married to you. And who's nice, who likes you, just he's kind and all that, but he is not into being married.

You're going to do that. And your kids are going to grow up learning that's what love looks like. That's the model of marriage that's going to be imprinted on their nervous system. That dad sometimes gives mom gifts so she can buy groceries. Dad goes to his own place because we're too much for him. That's what they're going to learn. Or you're going to sit down with him and say, if you don't want to be married to me, I need you to call it.

Because I got four little kids. Either you got to move in with me in the next 60 days or you've got to decide that you're out. But this can't continue like this. And by the way, just moving in is just step one. We're going to have to create a new marriage here. And he can say, well, then I'm out. And I want you to remember, you're not all alone. You have a good co-parent and a good friend who's got a vested interest in these four wonderful kids of yours. So...

You're coming home alone every night anyway with the occasional hookup and the occasional hangout with this other guy. There's going to be some significant financial ramifications, which I get. And your life as you have it right now is going to look very different. You're going to have to go get a job. You're going to have to lean on child support more than you wanted to. You might have to downsize your apartment or your home. All those things, I get that. But here's the thing is there's not an easy path forward. Doing nothing is going to continue to be heavy, heavy, heavy.

I'm more worried about Jill standing up really tall and saying, I'm going to take the best path forward for me and for my kids in light of a husband that doesn't love me. I mean, he loves me, but doesn't want to be married to me. Has laughed. He's never even moved in. How does that sound? Well, that's exactly what I've been thinking.

And I guess that's why I posed the question, you know, what's best? Because like I said, I do get very confused. Just a few nights ago, it did come to a head. I did say, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. It's the same patterns just keep repeating themselves. And I know we're both doing the best that we can in some areas, but it's just not working.

I can't be in a marriage where my children trigger you. I have good kids. Your kids trigger him? Yeah, he struggles with the way I parent. And he's told me he struggles being around my kids. He's nice to them, and they actually like him. But for me as a mom, it just breaks my heart. Of course. If he tells you he doesn't like being around your kids, why did he marry you?

I've asked him that. I've asked him that. And that's when he told me he actually didn't want to get married. But then he does a whole 180 when I finally get to that point that I say, I know it's not just you. We both have a part in this, but I can't do this anymore. Okay, so what you got to do, here's the deal. You have to be very clear. Okay, you can't just say, I can't do this anymore. This has to be different.

You have to say, here's what has to be different and here's the order. A, you got to move in. B, you and I are going to couples counseling. C, you can never tell me again that you just married me because you don't want to hurt my feelings. Number four, my priority is to these four kids and you're marrying in, you married into this. And so we have to come up with some ways for my kids not to trigger you because they can't go through their life knowing in their nervous system that they're, my husband doesn't love them.

Doesn't want the best for them. That it's annoyed by them as though they're little dogs running around yapping in the house. Like you have to be very, very specific. And then you have to have this magical or what statement. You have to have a line in the sand that says, if this doesn't happen, then you are opting to end this marriage the same way you opted to be married to me. And here's the thing, Jill. Here's what I want you to practice over the next few weeks. I think you're, I think you are smart.

I didn't think your emotional radars, your alarm systems are right. And so I want you to practice for the next few weeks, not saying things like, I just don't know. I think you do. And I want you to begin to operate from a position of strength, even when it's hard, especially when it's hard. I want you to operate from a position of, no, my instincts right now are right. My information is right.

This guy is doing X, Y, and Z. He is opting out of this marriage. And so to take care of me and my kids, here's what this is going to mean. Here's my budget. Here's the conversation I'm going to have with stepdad. I mean, with the kid's dad. Here's what kind of work I'm going to have to get. Here's how much money I'm going to have. All these living in reality kind of things. But I want you to practice. Even when you don't feel like it, I want you to practice like you're operating from a position of strength. Give that a whirl.

And then I want you to sit down with your counselor and ask, how do we rebuild the marriage if he chooses in? And if he moves within 60 days, or how do I begin a yet another separation with somebody who's opting out of being married to me? But it sounds like those are your two paths. And my promise to you is just sitting and ruminating and spinning on either one of those paths is not going to make anything in your home better. It's just going to make it heavier. So just, even if it's an inch, take a step in one of those directions.

I'm sorry. This doesn't have a happy ending. It doesn't sound like I'm sorry. If husband wants to call me, I'd love to talk to him. And I appreciate you being brave here, but husbands live with their wives and their kids, not down the street in their own house. Guys who marry moms with four kids don't say things like your kids are triggering me. They're annoying me. I don't like being around them. Husbands don't give their wives gifts for groceries and car insurance. They pool their money together to create a new life.

So he may have walked down the aisle with you, but I don't think in his head he's ever been married to you, Jill. And I think it's time for you to stand up and say, I'm worth more than this. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back. I cannot shut up about my Helix mattresses. My sister is staying with me this week, and she came down looking this morning like she just woke up from a coma. And her first question was, what in the world is that mattress? And I sang it to her, Helix.

I got a Helix for every bedroom in my house. I sleep on a Helix mattress every single night, and I love it. My family loves it. Our sleep is getting better and better and better. As soon as you can, I want you to get online and take the Helix Sleep Quick.

quiz and you're going to find your perfect mattress in under like two minutes. And there's a mattress for every fit, softer firmness level, mattresses for side sleepers and back sleepers and stomach sleepers and mattresses for every shape and size of person. And they also have a bunch of mattresses at a bunch of different price points. Whatever you order, you can try it out for 100 days risk-free and they're going to deliver it right to your home and in no time, you'll be sleeping your best sleep. Helix

We'll be right back.

Go to helixsleep.com slash Delaunay. That's helixsleep, H-E-L-I-X-S-L-E-E-P dot com slash Delaunay. This offer won't last long, so go right now. Because with Helix Sleep, better sleep starts now. All right, let's go out to the 505 Albuquerque, New Mexico and talk to Jessica. Hey, Jessica, what's up?

Hi, Dr. John. How are you? I'm, uh, I've been better. Oh, what happened? What's going on? So I don't know if you want a little bit of backstory before, but bring it all. Bring it all. Okay. I'm going to try it. Keep calm. This is like so awful. You don't have to be calm. Okay. Start at the end and then let's go back to the beginning. Okay. So let's get the scary thing out first.

It's a great thing at first. So I am 39. I have been dating my boyfriend for eight months and it's been...

One of the healthiest relationships I've ever been in. Like he is absolutely wonderful. He's kind. And it's been really hard for me to finally accept being with a kind man. You know, my nervous system has always been attracted to men that don't want me and you know, all that type of thing. And I'm finally like with a very kind man and it's been a lot for me to finally accept this and like,

get comfortable with it. And finally, like we were in such a good place, the best place we've ever been. I've ever been like, everything was going great. This is quite the buildup. It's horrible. I don't know what is worse than this, honestly. Like it's, and then it's,

He has a cold sore on his lip. And I'm like, is that a cold sore? And he says, no, no, it's a fever blister. I don't have that. I don't have that. It's very defensive and dismissive. And I was like, okay, well, you know, I just, no big deal. People have cold sores. And by the time I saw him and it had mostly cleared up,

So it was his birthday weekend, just normal things happened. And then two weeks later, I get sick, like very sick. All these other symptoms and then the worst symptom imaginable sores down there. Like...

that I've never had in my life. Like I have never experienced anything like this. And so I go to the doctor, sure enough, it's the big, horrible, horrible, horrific, disgusting big H. And I was like, you gotta be kidding. You gotta be kidding. And I'm like shaking and hysterical in the

office and she's like yes hsv1 can be given to you even though he only has it orally he can give it to you generally yeah so now i have genital herpes for the rest of my life because of his stupid cold sore and like he doesn't have to deal with these consequences i do like i have to deal with whatever outbreaks i'm gonna get who knows what it's gonna be like i just can't

contracted it. And I, I, there's two parts to this. Like, how can I ever look at myself the same? Like I wanted to burn everything in my closet. I wanted to like, cause I, I never want to feel beautiful again. I wanted to just throw, just throw the biggest fit of my whole life. Like, cause I just, I had a huge meltdown of just myself, how to deal with this for myself. But then also like, I cannot even look at him. I can't,

I can't look at him. Like, I can't stand the thought of him. Like, and he, he wants to bring me flowers. I want to throw those flowers in the trash in front of his face. I want to throw him down the stairs. I want, I want to punish him forever for this because how dare he do this to me, destroy me forever. But also like, I don't want him to leave.

because I'm men, I'll be alone, just this disgusting disease monster. And I can't tell men about this and I can't be with other men now because I'm diseased. And he is, you know, he, he's desperate for forgiveness. I'm like, why should I forgive you? Why? Like the scales of justice are just so messed up here. And I, he's been crying for days, just wanting forgiveness. And I don't,

I particularly want to, I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know if forgiving him is the right thing to do. And if I do, like, what do I get for that? Like, what do I get for, for, you know, forgiving you? Like I have this forever. Like he doesn't have to deal with it.

I don't know what to do. Like the first part is me feeling so, so disgusting. Like I can't tell my family, I can't talk about it. Like, cause I'm so freaking disgusting. And then to him, like, is this relationship just inferno and in ashes because of this? Does that feel good? Like to get all out like that? Um, no, no. So I would normally ask you, but I'll just say it just for time's sake.

You know that not one thing you said or mentioned, 0% of the things you just mentioned will heal you physically, right? I know. And it's not like, it's not so hard to accept. It's like, even if I break up with him, even if I abuse him, even if I abuse myself, it's not going to change anything. No, it's deeper than that, Jessica.

When did you find out about this? How recent is this? Two weeks. Okay. Have you been through a gnarly bad breakup in your past? Yes. And you remember those first few weeks after that and you can't breathe and everything's just great? Mm-hmm. And then you just told me about meeting this new guy that was a ray of sunshine. Right? And here's why I'm telling you that. You are still under the fog of...

True pain. All your feelings are, I mean, I'm proud of the way you can articulate them. And feelings' job is not to tell you the truth. So I'm going to tell you the truth. You're not a monster. You're not disgusting. The percentage of the population walking around with HSE1 is significant. There's some pretty incredible medications that can drastically reduce outbreaks.

You can still be with people. How do I know? Because I've got friends with this. Do you judge them? No, why? Do you look at them worse because of it? No. They may never win a cut-down war with me, but no. Why would I judge them? I don't know. I grew up Mormon. I grew up LDS. So this particular thing is weighing very heavy on me. Is it because you were told there's some cosmic curse? Yes. Okay, stop. Stop.

You hooked up with a guy with a cold sore. He's not a bad guy. If he's been tested before and he knows, then you should break up with him today. If he was just a knuckleheaded guy that thought he had a zip by the side of his mouth and had no clue, and now he's devastated too, he deserves compassion and grace too. And he doesn't have to get it today. Okay. But you torturing him and being mean is just...

There's just no reason for it. If you need some space, tell him I'm not in a place in a position to talk to you right now. Cause I'm hurting so bad. I know you didn't mean to hurt me forever, but you did. Right. Yes. But you giving, like giving any, like give time to the feeling of disgust. Give time to the feeling of grief.

Give time to, here's what's beneath all of this, like deeper than all of this, is this idea that can't freaking Jessica just catch a break with a guy. Yeah. Right? Seriously. Seriously. Is there a long line of them? Like you've been hurt before? Yes. And so I think there's, yes, yes, herpes is a thing. And yes, you seeing sores,

on your generals is disorienting, right? It's disorienting. It's almost like it separates you from yourself. That's somebody else's body part, right? I get that. And you're still incredibly lovable. I just don't believe that. You don't have to, but I don't lie on this show, so I'm telling you the truth.

You don't have to. There's no way this doesn't take away from me in some way. There's no way this doesn't some way just, this is a blight on me. That is a strange way to live the rest of your life. But that's a choice you can make. That's a choice you can make. I can choose to act like it's no big deal. I can choose to act like it's nothing. Yep. It's something. In what world? What are you talking about?

You have a guy that you just spent telling me that for the better part of a year, you've fallen head over heels for the wonderful guy. And he's calling you every day in tears saying, my God, I hurt the person that I love the most. Can I come see you? And you're thinking about torturing him and killing him and shaming him, dragging him behind your car down New Mexico. Why? Why?

Uh, because I'm enraged at the injustice. Like, why does he yet again, no consequences, no consequences for him. Okay. Then break up with him right now. Jessica, let him go. Then let him go. Like, what do you want? You want him to get like an even worse, like, like STI? Like what, like what, what do you, what do you like? You gotta let this injustice go. If you're going to be in a, in a stable relationship with somebody.

I know that I would have to forgive him and let this go if it were to continue, but I don't know how to do that. Forgiveness is for you, my friend. Forgiveness says you hurt me and I'm not carrying it anymore. But for you, not forgiving, I can tell gives you power. It makes you feel strong. Not forgiving? Yeah. I mean, it definitely feels like a battle. You know what I mean? It felt like we were allies before. You are allies. Yeah.

All of a sudden, I'm on the other side of this battle and like I need to protect myself and defend myself from him. That's what I feel like. And it's so hard doing that from somebody that was like your best friend like two days ago. You know what I mean? How has the last two weeks felt? Very. It's been devastating for both of us. Will you try something for me? Yeah. The way you've tried to handle this over the last two weeks has not made you feel better. No. No. Then here's what I want you to do. Mm-hmm.

I want you to sit in your car for 30 seconds and yell, it's not fair. And then I want you to go inside and double down on being close to him. And give 48 hours of connection a chance because what you're doing is not working. No. It's making you angry. It's making you feel worse about yourself. It's making this thing is just spinning and spinning and ruminating and spinning and ruminating. And the doctor can tell you, hey, we've got medicine.

Your friends, you're just walking around like you're this big, like you said, this blight of humanity. You're not. And if you choose to think that, if you choose to enter every room for the rest of your life with that way, I'm telling you, you're making a choice to live a less blessed, a less fortunate, a less joyful life. But it just feels like a lie if I do that. It's just getting off too easy. Unless you're going to let go of this whole punishment thing, dude, you're going to have to just let him go.

I mean, but even punishment for myself. For what? I don't know. For making out with a guy that he didn't know he was sick? It just doesn't feel right to not. Jessica, your feelings aren't telling you the truth. Oh, okay. They're not. And your feelings are so powerful and so strong that it's easy to get swept up in them because they lie to you and tell you that they're going to protect you. They're not.

They're making you feel worse about yourself. You're about to lose another relationship. You're not thinking clearly on the science and the medical aspect of this. You're creating a sociological characterization of yourself. It's just not true. And by the way, it's okay to be so pissed and to grieve so deeply and to have yet another perfect thing not be perfect.

It's okay. At some point, you're going to recognize that all of your imaginary perfect, none of it was ever real. And by the way, by the way, I'm hitting the scale too hard on the other side on purpose. Dude, this is the worst. I'm sorry. It's horrible. It is. Okay, but listen, you just said it perfect. You said it perfectly. This is horrible. You're not. This is horrible. He's not.

This is horrible. Y'all's relationship together, I think, can become even stronger if you choose for it to be. But yes, this situation, herpes, is horrible. It's not great. But I'd rather you spend some time crying and being sad than trying to wallpaper over and fight and hold back grief with rage.

Because rage is going to make you do and say things that you don't mean and that are not you. And they're going to cost you friendships and relationships and love and compassion. It just seems like way too easy to just move on like it's not a big deal. It just seems like...

I mean, he's been crying. Like, the only thing that whenever I'm not thinking about sledgehammering his face, like, whenever I'm not thinking about that and I see him crying and he just...

He's a good person. He's a sweet, kind man. And he's such an empath and he just can't live with the guilt of it. He's so upset. Like he can't handle that. He did this to me and that he just has the oral one. And now I have the genital one. And, you know, it was like, you know, I already have problems with my self-worth and he's just over there just bawling. And that's the only moment I have empathy for him is like when I see him crying or saying, Oh, maybe I shouldn't be so mean. Like,

But at the same time, I mean... I'm just going to ask you again. What does mean getting you? Nothing. Nothing. It's a complete waste of your time. You're right. It's just doing nothing.

You're right. It's doing nothing. What is me wanting to catastrophize everything? Like, what is... You've been doing that your whole life. I've been doing that my whole life. Yes. My whole life. And, Jessica, I'd be willing to bet money that in the house you grew up in, you had to think 14 steps ahead to stay alive. Yes. Fair? Yes. Or to stay less abused. Fair? Fair. Okay.

That served you well. Your body did exactly what it was designed to do, and that's to keep you safe because the people that were supposed to keep you safe were hurting you, right? Yes. Yes. And if you're wondering, how does he know that about me? Because I've sat with you over and over and over again, and I care about you, and I want you to have a well life, and I want you to not go to war with your body anymore. Your body did exactly what it was designed to do, but that thing that kept you alive and safe as a kid will destroy your adulthood joy.

It has been for years. I know. I know. And it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy because you make the people around you just so frustrated that they say the thing or do the thing or just don't return a call or they fill in the blank. And then you go, see, the worst thing happened.

And the way you talk... Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. It's almost like the fear and living in the anxiety and the terror of it coming is just... It's safer and easier to deal with. It's a drug. The disappointment and the... Yeah. It's a drug. It's easier to sit there in that than...

at the risk of being happy and it being destroyed again. Okay, so here's what I need you to do. What do you do for a living? I sell insurance. Okay. Oh, then this is even better. You know how to look at an actuary table, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know how past data works. Uh-huh. And past risk analysis works. That's how you make all of your basis for rates, correct? Yes. Okay. So your...

pre-catastrophizing, or as Brene Brown calls it, your dress-rehearsing tragedy, as you do 24-7, 365, has resulted in a wake of burned-down relationships. True or false? True. True. Would you insure yourself relationally? No. No. And if you were going to, like my claims adjuster will come out and say, you're going to have to drive differently. And so I'm trying to get you to see...

That dress racing tragedy only robs joy of the present. It does not protect you from the future. How do I know that in your particular case? Because of how you spoke of this guy, you slowly let your guard down with this one. Oh, yes, yes, yes. And then you didn't realize how low the guard was until you went to the doctor. Mm-hmm. And so it...

Life is a series of challenges in front of us and the question most of us need to ask is not how do we build this big cinder block casing for ourselves to protect us from everything because even then that will fall in on us at some point the question is can we find people to go through the hard stuff together and you haven't told me one thing negative about this guy other than he unwittingly hurt you in a pretty big way and he's begging for your for grace. Yes.

And so let me go ahead and spoil alert for you. If you go over to his house today and you hold him and y'all both weep together and he says, I'm so sorry. And you say, I forgive you. I'm setting these bricks down. I'm not carrying this anymore. You know, both go to the doctor and it's embarrassing and humiliating. You got to go through all that stuff and you get the medicine and the cream, all the stuff. And then you get all the information about how you're not ruined and your life's not over. And there's going to be some uncomfortable periods and all that, but, but y'all can do this together.

You're going to say something and at some point you're going to hurt him. He's going to do another thing over the next two, five, seven, 10 years. He's going to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. And he's going to hurt you too. That's life. That's relationship. That's love. The question is we all decide we're going to rebuild together and not carry, not run to the future, create a story, put it in a, in a Ziploc bag or in a backpack and bring it to the present and expect the present to carry it. By the way,

If I got herpes today, would I call my mom and dad and tell them? Nope. No. So you're right. You should never tell your parents. I mean, maybe there's a time and place depending on your kind of family. Maybe I would tell them one day if we were all laughing, but like, you don't need to tell everybody this.

There's no dynamics. It hasn't. No, it hasn't. It hasn't. No.

No, no, no. Like I'm not pathetic because I'm just trapped here because he gave it to me and I don't want to give it to anyone else. Nope. I can just choose to go back to the way it was. Nope. You could choose to build something new and awesome. And in five years when he doesn't take the trash out and y'all are married and you have a little kid running around, you can say, um, check the trash out. No. Why are you always hassling me? You can yell out. Remember that time you gave me herpes and y'all can all laugh about it.

No, there's no laughing. There will be, there will be, there will be not now, but there will be. Okay. Maybe not, but maybe he's worried about that. He's worried about me just like, just using it as a sledgehammer for the rest of life. And I'm like that girl from, I'm like Kathy Bates when she breaks his legs, you know? And I'm just like, that's a choice. Listen, that's a choice you make on a minute by minute, hour by hour, daily basis.

And you're right. You can choose to get back into a relationship with him and always have a trump card forever. He will leave you. 100% he'll walk out the door because that's not a relationship. Here's what I know. And I'm glad to hear your friends mimicking the same, telling you the same thing I'm telling you. When I get real emotional, when I get hurt, when something bad happens to me, I know this about me. My emotions are hot. They run real, real hot. And so I outsource everything.

the next right step to people that I trust. Because I'm not reliable all the time. And I think you should continue to surround yourself with people that love you and that know you and will give you wisdom. Like, man, he's a pretty wonderful guy. This is a really awful situation y'all found yourself in, but he's a pretty awesome guy.

And let's go to the doctor and get some real information so we can stop running around spouting things off. And by the way, I don't know anything about HSC1. I don't know anything about it. Very, very little. Just that my students used to be experienced with it a lot. But I want you to ask yourself over the next few weeks, is what I'm doing right now helping me solve my problem? Is it helping me grieve? Or is rage and anger trying to wallpaper over everything else in my life?

And just for a season, feel sad, grieve. Things were, and now there's something different. And also ask yourself, what's the next right move? Beating up on somebody that loves you is never the right move. Jessica, it's been an honor to talk to you. Call anytime. You're not disgusting. You're not broken. And I'm going to call you my friend. I wish you guys the best. We'll be right back.

What's up, friends? Dr. John Deloney here. Tickets are selling like madhouse for the money in marriage getaway happening over Valentine's Day weekend in 2025.

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By the time you go home, you'll walk away with new tools to not just talk about, but to actually utilize. You're going to learn how to communicate. You're going to strengthen your sex and intimacy, and you're going to deepen your connection with each other. Plus, you're going to take part in a bunch of Q&A sessions with me and Rachel Cruz, where we will give you real-life answers to your tough questions.

There are a few VIP tickets left up for grabs that include a meet and greet with me and Rachel Cruz. And we are so jazzed to meet you all in person. There's not many tickets left. So don't wait. Please don't wait. Please come go to Ramsey solutions.com slash getaway to get your tickets. That's Ramsey solutions.com slash getaway. All right. We are back and I've got an update for you.

You notice every time I listen, I mean, every time I talk to somebody, I always say, hey, call me back. Let me know how things are going. And I wish more people did, but I also know it's hard to come on and tell your story. It ends up all over everywhere, and it's easier just to fade out. So I totally get that. But Merlanda from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The original call was on February 27th of 2023. This is amazing. Here's what Merlanda writes.

Hey guys, I just wanted to give another update. Thanks to Dr. John's call and she called into the show and she was asking about how to learn to love herself. She'd gotten very, very overweight and she didn't know how to love herself and she was heading down this journey of considering weight loss and what she's going to do next. She writes, thanks to Dr. John's call and his encouragement to learn how to love myself.

Golly, I'm currently down 178 pounds. That is Ben. She's lost Ben. Ben, you're not 178 pounds, are you? Eh, like 170. She lost Ben. She lost me. She writes, I ended up going to a weight loss clinic and having bariatric surgery, and with that, I've completely changed my lifestyle. I'm active, I eat healthy, and most importantly, I love who I am. Dude, that's amazing.

I'm living my life now, and it started with learning who I was and starting the practice of loving that person. Here's a comparison picture from Easter of 2023 to Easter of 2024. It's amazing. Unrecognizable. We'll post these pictures on the YouTube. Thanks to Dr. John. Forget that, Merlanda. Thanks to you. What an amazing encouragement.

An amazing encouragement. By the way, she put a little asterisk and says, I don't send this to brag. I just want to encourage anyone. I'm bragging for you. You should brag. You lost Ben. You lost Ben. 178 pounds. That is staggering. That's a lot of work. Surgery's scary. Surgery's expensive.

It's a lot of work to change your habits, to begin exercising, to begin eating differently. And the super atomic hard thing you did was to begin loving Merlanda. I'm so, so proud of you. Amazing, amazing, amazing. Keep the updates coming. Wow. What an encouragement, Merlanda. You're awesome. Hey, everybody. Thanks for sticking it out. This is a tough show today, and I'm glad we got to end on such a ray of sunshine and hope. It's awesome. Love you guys. Bye.