My Husband Doesn’t Show Up for Me
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Coming up on The Dr. John Deloney Show. Am I being too hard on my husband, expecting him to attend social events when it, quote unquote, my friend's event? He kind of sabotages and gets into this really grumpy mood and kind of ruins the time or won't socialize. He chooses to just pout and not be present.

What in the world's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, talking about your mental and emotional health, your relationships, your marriage, your kids, your parenting, whatever you got going on. I don't care what side of the aisle you sit on. I don't care what makes you mad or not mad. I don't care if you, what you believe in or don't believe in. I'm glad that you're here. I'm glad that you're here. We're carving a new third way, right? Because...

Look around, man. It's not working. So we're carving a new third way. We're going to sit with hurting people and we're going to figure out the next right move. And we're going to tell hard truths and we're going to love well. We're going to do all of it right here. If you want to be on this show, it's real people going through real challenges. Give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291.

That's 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask, A-S-K. All right, we got a couple on the line from Bend, Oregon. I'm going to pull up Robin first. What's up, Robin? Hey, Dr. John. How's it going? Good. And you, how are you?

Oh, I'm great. Man, I really appreciate you taking this phone call. Absolutely. Like everyone else, definitely didn't think I'd get a call back. So here we are. Very cool. And I love getting right in the middle of a couple drama. So this is going to be fun. All right, I'm going to bring on Phil now, your beloved husband, right? Awesome, yeah. Hey, Phil, you there?

Oh, yeah, I'm here. Awesome. Man, I can tell in your voice you'd rather be doing most anything else than being here. So I'm glad that you're here, dude. It's awesome. I'm glad to be here. I'm a OG listener. So I got my wife listening to your podcast. It's the only one she's ever trusted to listen or followed up on. Yeah, that's rad. Does she occasionally say, well, you know, Phil, John says that you need to be, does she do that to you?

Oh, you know what? She's turned your name into a customer. Oh, man. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's all right, though. I accept it. I accept it. All right. So, Robin, you called. So what's what is Phil doing or not doing? I'm just assuming that's how this is going to go. Oh, yeah. Hey, so I'll just get straight to the question. Am I being too hard on my husband expecting him to attend school?

social events. Um, and I guess the backstory, not necessarily a big backstory. Um, he works Monday through Friday and I know at the end of the week he's zapped and, um, most events that we've been attending lately, uh, have been on the weekend and, um,

been some pushback to attend a lot of these events because he wants his downtime. And I'm like, hey, we're a family. They're either birthday parties or bridal showers for couples and families. And I kind of need you to step up and go with me. And on the other part of me, I'm like, I get that he's tired. He's

He stays at home or he works remote and he watches our son at the same time when I'm away on my shifts. So I respect the fact that he also probably needs to get some rest. And I guess I also look at my position. I'm working 24 hour shifts. I'm wiped out, but I also feel it's incredibly important to show up for the people in our lives. And I have that.

That expectation that my husband goes with me to these events. To me, if he doesn't show up, which I've allowed in the past, it's embarrassing. Which you've allowed. Fantastic. This is awesome. I've allowed it. This is so great. Awesome. Phil, you're grounded. You're grounded. No dessert, Phil. Yeah. Oh, man. All 40. But, you know, I want my spouse to be there. Okay. I want you to say that. That's what I care about.

So, what kind of shift work do you do, Robin? I'm a firefighter, so I work 24 on, 48 off. Okay. And Phil, what do you do, bud? I just like IT stuff, kind of nerdy stuff. That's kind of taking over the world. That's cool. Just lo-fi, run everything. Cool. All right. So, how long have you been married? Eight years now. Okay. And you have how many little ones? We have one 40-year-old. Okay. Okay.

So I'll let Phil speak. Phil, what's your thought on the other side of this? All right. So my thought is I get maybe one to three days a month where I have the opportunity because it doesn't always line up where she has weekends off. So most weekends, she's either working one day. And so that gives me like one to three days

maybe where I have the opportunity to have my own soul. I don't have much of a social life and I voiced her, you know, it's kind of making me drown. And kind of what happens is when we go to these events, um, like the reason she called us, cause we got into it and all of a sudden I handled it like a child. Um, but we went to a wedding and it was like a hundred degrees out. And I'm just like, you know, during the ceremony, um,

he's like we're not i'm not even going to be there because you know our little one's going to be running around i'm gonna be chasing him around and then like for the tail like there wasn't even a seat for the three of us like like there's only two seats for the three of us and two plates and so i was just like the whole time i was like i told you we should i should just stayed home with him and you should have just gone to the wedding and enjoyed yourself and now i'm just chasing him around non-stop and

Uh, we had another wedding that we went to and it was, this one was a blast, but kind of half the event was just me chasing our, you know, our son around. And I even told her, I said, Hey, you can't just, you know, you can't just keep leaving. You know, or I said like a joke, I can't just abandon us and just go off and do your thing. Well, I have to chase them around all day. And so I just, I kind of feel like, you know, she does a lot of, she, um,

She has a lot more opportunity to hang out with friends and she was doing like book nights or clubs or nerdy stuff like that. And Triggy had nights and, and it's just like, you know, I just kind of need, um, like, you know, some time. Why don't you guys get a babysitter when you go to some of these things? We don't have a lot of options. Okay. And, um,

When we do, yeah, like, usually my mom is pretty much the one that does it. And it's like, and maybe, like, once a month. And then it's just like, well, let's, you know, do something else besides a wedding or, you know. So we try and use it for, like, our date night. Hmm.

If I didn't know better, I would think that my wife actually is paying you two to call in to have this question. This hits so close to home. It's wild. It's wild. And I can...

walk through some of the important big rocks and then I can just tell you how we handle it in my house. Okay. May I, may I elaborate just a little bit more? Elaborate away. What I've got so far is that you hate your husband and your kid and you like to go to this party and he has to chase them because you're kind of an abandonment mom, but whatever. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, to be fair, the last wedding we went to, I was in the wedding party, so I did have to help out, but you know, proceed. Um, it,

It turns into more of like the separation of your friends and my friends situation. And when it, it's quote unquote, my friend events, he, he kind of sabotages and gets into this really grumpy mood and kind of ruins the time or won't socialize. And it's like,

He's great at socializing. He's great at talking to people, but he chooses to just kind of pout and not be present. And I can almost, I can see that. And like there's 100%, that's me, by the way, that's me. Or in some instances, that's my wife. Okay. I'm going to go to this thing. You're demanding my presence. I'll be there, but I'm going to make sure everybody around me knows that I'm radioactive and I don't want to be here.

Right. The other side of that, Phil, I'll put you on the spot because y'all called and I just asked y'all to be honest and don't be mean to each other when this call is over. Is that cool? Oh, we won't be. How often do you go to these things and not like who your wife becomes when she's there? Um, I don't really, I guess when I, when it's like, uh, to go back when it's like my friends, I feel like I'm kind of being micromanaged to make sure I'm, um,

you know, behaving or being, you know, telling, or just, I guess like, it's almost like my mom's there watching over me. That's exactly what I'm asking. That's what I'm asking. You don't like who your wife becomes? Um, kind of, but when it's her, like when it's like her side or something, it's fine. It's great. It's great, but you don't want to be there. Yeah, no, no, I don't want to be anywhere else. Why is that? Uh, just, it's just, I don't, I don't know. I just want to,

Have a day to myself. What's underneath that? I just, I don't have much of a social life, I guess. Okay. So what I'm hearing is a social offering on the table. What makes that social offering not something you want to be a part of? Because I want to, okay, I get that. I want, you know, I want to be with my ride or dies. Okay. Are your ride or dies, is there no room for any more ride or dies? We're getting there. We're meeting a couple,

I think we've added some new pretty solid friends, mutual friends over because we moved. And so now we're kind of, you know, you know, it's like an hour and a half, two hours away from, you know, like our OG friends. And so we're meeting some new people now. And that's cool when we hang out. I enjoy hanging out with those people. But what I want to get to is, are you grieving loss? Because you're at the eight year mark and there's a natural settling in like, oh, this is our life.

And we have a little kid and we both have jobs and you married a first responder. So there comes with that innate built-in stress. And I'm the son of a policeman. And so most of my time has been running around policemen, just a little bit of firefighters. And so I get to make a firefighter joke. Is that cool, Robin? It's easy. Like the old police joke is, ooh, we have to work every day, right? So there's that, right? And so there's the illusion that Robin's just sitting at home,

like doing yoga all day while you're right. And while you're wrangling kids and work. So there's this understanding that this is kind of what our life is.

And the challenge I think happens is Robin, you have this picture of what you want this thing to look like. And it is we're social and we are cool and we are hip. And in fact, I'm going to hit the pendulum because people think I'm this firefighter, tough woman, first responder. But I go to parties and I dance and we have fun. And then your husband is all day wrangling. And he's like, dude, when I'm off, I unplug and I lock the door. And there's a sense of dropping your shoulders. And it's like, oh, this is our life.

And until you acknowledge and grieve that, and what I mean by grief is not a negative grief, nobody died, but where my wife and I had to get was, I love going to stand-up comedy shows. I went to two different shows this weekend. I love going to punk rock shows. You should see my lineup. I love hanging out with my wife more than anybody else. She doesn't like those two worlds. And so for so long, it made me sad that I thought she was choosing something else other than me.

And it wasn't until I realized, oh, no, no, no. I'm showing up like a puppy. Like maybe this time I get a treat. Maybe this time I get a treat. And it was never that. It wasn't until we sat down and she said, hey, these environments, I don't like them. They make me uncomfortable. But I love you. You pick one show like a semester. I'm going to go. And I'm going to have a good time. You pick one comedy show and I'm going. I'm going to laugh hard. And then what I've had to do is do the work of –

calling other friends. And so I buy a couple of tickets every time and I invite rando people and it's a blast. I've learned to have a good time. What I always want her there. Yes. And by the way, Robin, I could give two boxes of farts what other people think. And now over time, people know like, yeah, Deloney's wife doesn't get in mosh pits. Most wives don't get in mosh pits. Right. So I don't, I don't care. And at the same time, I would rather, I would rather have,

The better part of my butt cracks out on fire than go to a couple's wedding shower, right? Yeah. So there's that as well. Like Phil being able to say these particular things I don't love. So Robin, you said something at the beginning of this call that I think is really instructive. It was this idea like he needs to step up this. I'm looking for the man in my house. And at the same time, you said later on, I really miss my husband.

Yeah. And so let me ask you this. Is this a respect issue for you? Like, are you losing respect for this guy because he just wants to sit around on the couch and when he's off, he just wants to be off and he wants to watch TV and put his feet up? And the only way we get to the truth here is if you tell the truth. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess a little bit. I just... I feel like I would do anything...

and show up for anything for him. And I guess it boils down to him not necessarily caring about my needs or my wants. So what are your needs here? Because I hear you showing up for Phil, but you show up and you quickly make it the picture you want it to be.

Sure. Hey, Phil, don't eat that. Hey, that's too many. Are you going to have another drink? Are you really going to do that? Why are you wearing that? Like, you quickly shift his time into something that fits your picture. So what's the thing? What are your needs here? I guess it would boil down to something deeper. Just, you know, him wanting to...

like you said, be the man that wants to be a family man. And I know that he's fantastic with our son, but it doesn't seem like he necessarily cares too much about his wife. There we go. In the same breath. And you have to own that you've attached care, a demonstration of caring for his wife to time. And you have attached time to going to other people's requests of y'all.

I guess I'm utilizing those requests as like date nights, even with our child, as social events because we don't really do that together. I got that. I got that. But it was a hard lesson for me to learn that for the last 20 years, I travel a lot for work and for speaking and all that kind of stuff. And I'd always tell my wife, hey, why don't you just come with me? We can double dip. Someone else is paying for the flights and the hotels. It's amazing. And she finally said, you are at work when you're there.

You're different in the hotel. You're different out in public. You're different in the airports. And I didn't realize that. And that's why I asked Phil, do you become somebody different than... And she sees me at punk rock shows, I kind of lose my mind. And she doesn't not like that guy. In fact, I think my wife loves that guy more than the guy trying to figure out how the Roomba works. But it's just, I'd rather just go to bed.

And so, Phil, you hear this. You hear a wife saying, I miss my husband. How does that resonate? I don't know. I mean, it kind of hurts, you know. Is it true? I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to say it's not true, but I don't know. I guess in my mind, I don't know. I just thought everything was pretty good. Yeah. Talk directly on the phone for me. Oh, sorry. Oh, you're good. You're good.

Can I give just a couple examples? I know we're probably running a long time. Yeah, give me one. Give me one. Okay. So her cousin, they were just in town visiting for like a week. It was awesome. We had a blast. And we went to... We were going to go stay at the lake all day, went fishing and fun stuff. And...

Like half the time we were there, she was, uh, she just went off fishing by herself and it was totally cool. I was having a blast with my son. We were, you know, canoeing around, just, you know, having fun. And then at like the end of the day, he was throwing a pick cause she went to go get the car and he wanted to go with her. I was like, I was like, Oh, I'll just go get the car. And she like kind of snapped and said, no, I need a moment alone. I was like, I was like, but you literally been alone like all day. Like, and so like, she's kind of,

Kate, in one picture, she feels like a single parent when she shows up alone. But on the other, when we go to these things and we do things together, it's like I'm kind of almost a single parent, I guess, is one way I guess I would describe it. And I would tell you that what y'all are describing, the roles are reversed, but it's exactly the conversation my wife and I had, which is, John, when I go to these things with you, you disappear.

You disappear. I feel the same too for other events. Sure. If, you know, if it's for him, then I'm left or just like with his birthday party. It's like, where's, where's my husband? I need help. Where's my husband? I need help. So I think it's like a bunch of blaming going back and forth. So here, here's, here's the, the two things I'm going to give you to start off with. Okay. Or three things. All right. For whatever it's worth, I think y'all are exactly where you should be.

And I think your marriage is strong and it's going to be amazing. Okay. Like, I don't want y'all to feel like y'all are some weird crossroads or this is the end. This happens all the time. It happened in my house. It happened in my house more recently than I would like to admit. It comes up every three or four or five years. People in the booth, we were all talking about it. Like it's happened. This happens to every one of us. Okay. The challenge number one is I want y'all to begin to, and I say this all the time, this is a perfect living example of this.

Cousins coming into town. We're going to go to the lake. Y'all sit down together for 20 minutes and say, hey, what does your picture of this weekend look like? Because he has, Phil has a picture in his head. We're going to the lake. We're going to be all in the canoe together. We're going to be fishing. And Robin has a picture in her head. I'm going to go, I'm going to pick up a rod and reel and I'm going to go catch me some fish.

And so she did it though. Do what? No. And in the same breath though, I would rather be in the canoe altogether. Right. But then, but I want y'all to, I want you to say that up front.

Because you don't say it. Phil hops in, doesn't want to bother you because you're fishing. I'm just going to take the kid, let Robin have her time. And often, I don't want to over, again, over gender stereotype, but often men try to solve relationship stuff by just doing the next thing, the next task. And often women want time and not just we're sitting by each other flipping through our phones, but we have some sort of, we are in the same space together.

And even if like, I've got to go be a bridesmaid, I need you out in the audience, which to me sounds like I'm, I'm, I'm coming to be an ornament. And so if you want me to go to the wedding, like what's your picture of this wedding look like? Well, I'm going to be doing this. I'm going to be doing this. I'm going to be doing this. I need you just in the audience.

I actually, I'd rather you tell them that we, that I would stay at home with the kids so that you could have a great time. And your friends will understand that. And if you are wanting to use Phil and as some sort of, look everybody, look how great everything is. I'm going to challenge you, Robin, to not use him in that way. If on the other hand, I've asked my wife to come to a couple of live events of mine, we barely talk, but there's something that anchors me into Phil.

into granite when I look out in an audience and I see my wife there. I know it's going to be all right. And so those are rare, very, very rare. But I'm specific when I say, hey, here's my picture for this. You don't have to talk to anybody. If you'll just show up, I'll save you a seat on the front row or off to the side. And she'll say, can you save me on the very, very, very back row? And I'll say, yeah, I can do that. But then the other thing is, here's, I've had to make peace. My wife doesn't like punk rock shows.

And that's, I love her and that's the person I married and I'm okay with that. I've had to do the work of saying, okay, what's the substitute? I'm going to take my buddies. I'm going to make some new friends. And the other side of it is she does say, pick one show, a term for me to go to. And both of us were professors forever. So we still live our lives on the semester schedule. And Phil, sometimes it's you saying, I'm going, if I'm in, if I say yes, I am going to be the funnest. Even if you have to play, pretend.

But saying yes, I'm going to go and then just being like that – my wife calls it the Sunday afternoon dad, like just that bear. Like nobody get around me, but then you can say, I went. But you weren't – like if you go, just go. Just go. And if you'll have to get one of those apps and start like interviewing babysitters out in Bend, then I would suggest you do that. Because it feels like your kid right now is a proxy for like a gap in your relationship. It's an excuse.

Because we have to deal with, I miss my husband, and this is what I feel like this looks like, and I just can't go to another wedding. I don't want to go sit in the heat and chase a four-year-old around. Does that resonate at all? Robin, what about you? Yeah. I think, you know, there's deeper. There is. You know, deeper things with it, but yeah. So here's the second thing. You have to tell him what those things are. Okay? Mm-hmm.

Are you ready to do that? Are you able to do that? Oh, I have. I have told him. Okay. But I want you to tell him the deeper meaning there. Okay. Not just, I don't think you're stepping up because there's a wedding this weekend and you didn't go and you didn't step up. There's a layer beneath that. I think you're lazy and you're just laying around the house. If that's what you believe in your soul, you need to say it out loud so y'all can deal with that. Because that's a respect issue. I think you'd rather sit at home than be with your wife.

I looked as beautiful as I possibly could trying to woo you and you didn't take your eyes off of the video game or whatever the thing is. You have to say those things out loud so y'all can deal with that thing. Because that's the cancer underneath the why don't you go to the wedding? Why don't you go to do this thing or whatever? Understand this whole thing is a negotiation when it comes to the events, right? And every single couple negotiates those things differently.

When I was in higher ed, I had all these banquets and stuff. And I got my wife said, dude, you get one a year. I just can't go and watch you hobnob. It just makes me and my skin crawl. Cool. That's great. And when it comes to like family reunion, you kind of things where you sit there for three days in these hot warehouses and she was like, hey, we'll go every other year. It means something to me for you to go with me. Done. Awesome.

But it can only be a negotiation on the events if underneath all of that, I know that we're anchored in together. If she thinks, man, you're just being a bum. You're not showing up. I don't feel loved by you. She's going to say that. And if I think, hey, you are just beating me down every time we go, you criticize everything we do. If we're going to go hang out, I need to just go have fun. I need you to let me have fun. Okay, cool.

But we got to talk about those deeper issues. And Phil and Robin, it sounds like you'll need to sit down and look each other in the eye and have some of that deeper conversation because it sounds like Phil's kind of caught off guard here. And Robin, it sounds like there's a lot wheeling up. And if things get real, real heavy, then call somebody, okay? I appreciate your call. Your call will help a whole, whole bunch of people because everybody's trying to negotiate. Why doesn't my husband love me? Because he won't do this. And he's like, man, I'm trying to love my wife best I can because I'm doing that. You got to sit down and align. What does your picture of this thing look like?

What do I need right here? And how can I best love you right now, today? And if I do, man, I'm going all in. If I say yes, I'm all in. Otherwise, I'm going to say no. Thanks for the call, gang. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. October is the season for wearing costumes. And if you haven't started planning your costume, seriously, get on it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go as Brad Pitt because we have the same upper body, but whatever. Look, it's costume season. And if we're being honest...

A lot of us hide our true selves behind masks and costumes more often than we want to. We do this at work. We do this in social settings. We do this around our own families. We even do this with ourselves. I have been there multiple times in my life, and it's the worst thing.

If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self behind costumes and masks, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself, where you can be honest with yourself, and where you can take off the mask and the costumes and learn to live an honest, authentic life.

Costumes and masks should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. If you're considering therapy, I want you to call my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy. You can talk with your therapist anywhere so it's convenient for just about any schedule. You just get online and you fill out a short survey and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional cost.

Take off the costumes and take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. All right, we are back. Let's go out to British Columbia, Canada and talk to Brian. Hey, Brian, what's up? Hey, John, how are you doing? I'm good, brother. How are you, man? Oh, I'm absolutely fantastic. Just loving life right now. Very good, very good. What's up?

Uh, okay. So my question is, is that, um, well, I'm going to preface it with, uh, I am a single father of two kids and, um, where's their mom? Um, so in their lives, we were separated two and a half years. Okay. Um,

And last September, I started seeing someone and it was my daughter's best friend's mom. You know what? Because why not? Why not? Yeah, why not? And it's...

Oh, John, it's, it's amazing. It's wonderful. I love this girl to absolute pieces. And I've never heard that before. I've never heard the first person someone dates after a divorce. Oh, they're amazing. All right. So I'm going to trust you though, Brian, that she's amazing. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So many words to describe her. Just,

I just love her. Ugh. Ugh. Gross. It's disgusting. It's amazing. Joe the engineer just threw up in his mouth a little bit. All right, so you're head over your heels for the mother of your six-year-old or four-year-old daughters? She's eight. Eight-year-old daughters. Okay, your eight-year-old daughters. My eight-year-old daughter and her eight-year-old daughter are best friends. And I am...

I want to incorporate the kids eventually, but I'm absolutely terrified because I saw like my divorce, it was very amicable. It was like, there's no yelling, there's no screaming. It was very like, you know, as far as divorces go, it was very smooth. And it was smooth for y'all too. It's not smooth for those girls. Exactly. Okay. And I saw the pain that they went through and are still going through and

And I am absolutely terrified to put them into a position where they could be hurt again. Okay. Because of me. Yeah. Is mom dating? No, she is not. Okay. So most kids carry a fantasy with them. Yes. An unspoken story that at one point mom and dad will get back together. Yes. And that's been circulating throughout the years. Correct. And it's going to continue circulating.

And so what I would say is a desire to not hurt your girls is well and good and right. And that ship has sailed out of the Harbor. So there's not a, really a way for you to move through your life in a way that they are not going to be affected by it. Yeah. What you don't want them to find out is dad also is a liar. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so there's some simple y'all been together a year now, you think? No, it's getting close to. Okay. Um,

Really, my rule of thumb is there has to be some pretty significant, I see a future here. Absolutely. For there to be any sort of connectivity. And I think in a weird way, and I'm just thinking out loud here, in a weird way, you almost have like a pass. And not a pass, but this is a little bit unique because you can invite your daughter's friend over and mom can stay.

Exactly. And that is kind of what we have been doing over the past month or two is just having play dates under the guys, like, you know, getting together altogether, going to the pool or, you know, having, you know, dinner or, you know, what have you. But eight-year-olds are incredibly observant.

Oh, I know. It's scary. Yeah. Has she already called you out on it or no? Not quite, but she has definitely made comments of...

Oh, when are you going to go see her next? And kind of almost like she knows there's an undertone that something's going on. And that's kind of, okay, things are coming to a head. I'm going to have to deal with this. You have to slow that down. You've got to slow that down. The more you feel like things are coming to a head and there's this inevitable collision, the more you're going to rush to do a thing.

Yeah. You're in control of the car. Okay. Yeah. Our, our, um, our biggest fear is that one day, you know, they'll, you know, the kids will have gone to bed and we'll be sitting on the patio or whatnot. And then all of a sudden they'll just find, find us and like, what are you doing here? And you're like, ah, okay. Cause we want to be able to control when it happens. Yeah.

And so it's me that's really nervous about this. My girlfriend is very like, oh yeah, let's go for it. Like, this is like, I'm all in. Where's her, the father of her child? In vault. Okay. So it's, our schedules line up week on week off. Okay. And so we see each other for a week and then we don't see each other for a week. I think that's pretty wise for a season, man.

I just, I can't, I can't wrap my head around the rush. Yeah. What's your rush? I'm not, I'm... What's her rush? It's almost like I want to fast forward to the good part. You can't do that. I know. You blew those little girls' worlds to smithereens, man.

I know. And so there's like the, it feels like you want to get this over with so that you can then make the girls. Okay. Again. Yeah. That's, that's, that's unfair to them because at some point you need them to be okay so that you can go be okay. Yeah. And they can't carry that weight for you. Right. So I, I guess I don't,

It feels like, it feels very sophomoric. It feels very like high school. Like, well, let's just start holding hands. We're going to show the world that we're dating now. Right? Like, let's go public with this thing. And it's like, dude, these are my, these are my baby girls. Exactly. And I still go see their mom. Have you, do you, does their mom, your ex, does she know you're dating?

Yes. And what is her? They know each other. Okay. Give them full blessing on it. Okay. That might be the, the, in a roundabout way. And this is rare in this world where you've got multiple adults dealing, like you're not two children fighting over your children. Right. Um, yeah, it might be that you both, um, address that together. Right.

But know that an eight-year-old and especially a six-year-old is not going to cognitively understand what you're talking about. Yes, and that has been my pushback. You can't explain this, right? It's just going to have to be something that's lived through. And they're going to have to look at their mommy, their bio mom, and she's going to have to smile and say, Daddy's going to meet new friends and Mommy's going to meet new friends someday. Yeah, and I think we've passed that point already that we've kind of, you know,

Gone past the point of, and no, mom and dad are not getting back together. Yeah. Again, you can say that all day long. You can say that all day long. They could be 16 when you finally get remarried and they'll be underwater for a season. Yeah. But here's the other thing. I don't like kids can feel when dad or mom are sneaking around. They feel that too.

All right. So you're kind of in a catch 22. And again, I'm always going to default to what is the age appropriate way I can tell my kids hard things. And so I think it's always fair to say, I love, I love your mommy and I want the best for her. We decided to not be married anymore and she might get married to another man someday. And she, and I might get married to another lady someday. And again,

You don't have to have the next person come in and be like, this is who I might be marrying. Right. There can be a, this is daddy's new friend and she's becoming a little bit more of a special friend. Right. And with your eight year old, especially you can say, if you see us holding hands, you better say, Ooh, as loud as possible.

Right? And see, here's what we're doing. When we give our kids permission, we're giving them a little tiny sliver of ownership into their world unspooling a little bit. Yeah. Right? And if you see us on the couch, you go, right? And give them something to do with that. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. That terror that is, oh, this is over, over, over.

And you and I, again, we experience this stuff intellectually. We're old. Kids experience this in their nervous system. And so giving them some sort of, ah, right? It's good. It's healthy. It's right. But if y'all do this thing for a year, that's usually my rule, nine months a year. But also, I just...

I don't know if you think, Oh, this person's the one she's, she's the whatever friends and partners in a pear tree. And I could see her us getting married or moving in and all that kind of stuff. And we're going to blend these families and her husband's cool. My wife is cool. And yada, all that. Um, then I think it's just finding what the age appropriate ways we can do this and understanding where there's going to be tears shed and that's going to be door slammed. It's going to be frustrated kids and we're going to bring them gently along through this process. Yeah.

But never, ever, ever, ever as her dad make it to where I need my girls to be okay so that I can be okay or I can justify my next move because that's not fair to them. No. You got to be okay with what you're doing next. And you got to be able to create a sturdy platform for these kids to maneuver on. And that might mean waiting a few more months. That might mean tonight.

Saying, hey, you know how me and your mom talked about one day we might get remarried. I'll always be your mommy and he'll always be your daddy, but we might get remarried. I might get married to a new husband and dad may get married to a new wife. We're not getting married, but this is my special friend or whatever. And slowly, slowly enter into that. And if you see us holding hands, everybody, let's practice it.

And everybody's laughing. You hold your girlfriend's hand. The kids go, right? All that. And also hold some space for eight-year-olds. Friendships come and go like water through a screen. So who knows if they're still going to be friends two months from now, right? They may become sisters someday. But go slow. Go slow. I don't know if I helped you very much, man. I kind of feel like I talked in circles on that. So I apologize. But...

Probably wouldn't use the words I'm dating your friend's mom. I would probably say miss so-and-so is becoming one of dad's special friends. And you may see us holding hands. You may even see me kiss her on the cheek and, oh, and let's baby step it that way. Thanks for the call, brother. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. Let's go out to San Francisco, California, and talk to Ellen. What's up, Ellen?

Hi, how are you? I'm remarkable. How are you? I'm good. I'm excited to get some of your advice today. Awesome. What's up? So I have a really great friend, a best friend that I've had for 25 years now. We met in our early 20s and you can imagine the 25 years from being 22 to mid 40s.

The life that we've kind of navigated together. And she's, I mean, just more like a sister to me for sure. So a couple of years ago, she came to me with some pretty shocking information on some things that were happening in her marriage and, you know,

We kind of talked a lot about that. I was pretty honest with her that these things were deal breakers. What were they? Well, I don't think I'm going to divulge the things. There were things told to me in confidence and I hated it.

Um, to put that out there, but I hope that you can trust that these things were deal breakers. Okay. Really, really bad stuff. There was some bad stuff. Um, so, so she, um, safety issue stuff. Um, I mean, I think that, yeah, I would consider some safety. Okay. That helps. That helps me frame it. Okay, cool. Okay.

So she left them. She divorced them, sold their house and moved into a place of her own. And I was just with her through that whole thing. You know, it was just walking with her through that storm. So then, I don't know, about six months or eight months passed and she came back to me and let me know that they

They were kind of getting back together again. She's been seeing him again. And, you know, we have a really honest relationship. I told her that I, you know, didn't really agree with that and reminded her of all the things that had happened. And this kind of happened back and forth over the next six months where she would get back together with them and then decide to break it off again. Well,

Fast forward to the beginning of this year. She let me know that she's decided to get back together with him. They're going to spend the rest of their lives together. And she moved back in with him. And I'm just not in agreement with this. But the question is not about her. The question is kind of about me and how to navigate this new chapter in our friendship. This is the first time we haven't been on the same page of something projective.

Pretty damn big. And I feel like I don't know how to navigate it. It sounds like the challenge with navigating this is, I'm probably oversimplifying it here, but she chose him. Yeah. And so you put a stake in the ground and you always have been unified with this particular person, which I think is amazing on the stakes in the ground.

And this time you put a stake in the ground, you put a boundary up and she said, yeah, I'm going to go this way. I wish you the best. And I think that is tragic and hard. And I mean, it's a quarter of a century of a friendship. Yeah. And I think there is the joy and celebration of what was, and then there's the heartbreak and grief of what is. Yeah. And I think you probably love her enough to say, I absolutely wish you the best.

Um, and I'll be here if things go sideways. Yeah. And if I were you, I would weep and weep and weep. Yeah. Oh, those two, those tears have flowed. Yeah. And maybe there's a world. And again, I'm, I, uh, I'm making something up here. Okay. Um, if you've listened to this show for any period of time, I'm, I'm big on redemption. Mm-hmm.

So I live in this tension of owning reality, choosing reality. And I think as a culture, we do that not well. Individually and as a culture, we do it terribly. There's no such thing as truth anymore. It's nonsense. And I believe deeply in redemption. I've just seen it over and over and over. People change. And so maybe there's a scenario where this man has the courage to call you and sit down and say, I did this to your friend and I'm sorry. And I've changed.

And I know I've got to reprove myself to you and to her and to everybody. I'm going to ask you to be patient with me and just know, I know if you can even be in that room with me, I get it. Somebody did that. That is somebody who said, I was, I was a serial cheater. I was abusive. I yelled a lot. I didn't show up. I was, I was struggling with addiction, whatever.

And that person says, I am making amends as they do the 12 steps. I'm going person by person to the people I hurt. And it's not just the direct people I hurt because there's radial blasts to this type of pain. Maybe. But that's his move to make. Yeah, and that scares me a little bit. Like I'm not ready. I'm not sure I'm ready for him to come to me with that. That's your choice. You get to choose that. But that may cost you time with your friend. And that's okay. Okay.

So, can I ask one more question? You can ask anything, sure. As I'm like taking this in and kind of trying to come up with a road map of what this looks like. Oh, sweetheart, the road map. Your friend just, your friend threw it away. It's not a map. But I want there to be a map. I know. You are out in the bay and there's no moon and the sun is down and you have a flashlight. Right. And you can see six feet in front of you and you're just going to keep going that way. There's not a map.

Okay. So obviously, I mean, this is someone that, you know, I'm going to continue seeing my friend. And what kind of boundaries, I guess, or what kind of expectations, I think that's a better word, can I put around interaction with him? Because I don't care to have any, you know, to be honest with you. I think you love her and tell her directly.

You think what? I think you love her and tell her directly. And then she gets to make a grown-up choice. Like, hey, I'd love to spend time with you. I want us to keep doing our regular Wednesday morning whatevers. I'm not comfortable being around him. Okay. And if she says, well, we're back together. And if you're going to be friends with me, you're going to be friends with him, you can say, nah, I wish you the best. Yeah. And that's her walking away.

Okay. And that's okay. It's heartbreaking and sad, but it's just, again, we're just, we're sitting in the most uncomfortable place, which is reality. Yeah. Do you think she's going to do that? She won't walk away. Okay. Because what happens sometimes in these moments is people are unsure of what's worse, loneliness or a partner who's hurt them in the past. And so they go back.

And we have to have, often we have to have an enemy to get us to move. We have to have something that we're against. As a culture, we're terrible about moving forward towards things. Look at our political. No one's given a roadmap to where we're going. We're all just like, well, that guy sucks. And the other guy's like, well, my position is that that guy's the worst. And so often people go back into dangerous situations or unsafe situations or situations that I've heard of in the past, and they have to have an enemy.

And so I would beware of you becoming that person. And that may end up with you smiling and saying, honey, I'm not fighting you. I love you and I'll love you to the end of time. Right. I can't be around so-and-so because of X, Y, and Z. I still got blood on me from the time I picked you up. Right. Yeah, exactly. And I love you and I'll always love you. Yep. And I'll love you now if this thing works out and you'll live happily ever after. And I'll be here if this thing goes south again and I'll be the first call. I'll come pick you up. Yep.

But I can't be around that guy. And then she gets to make a grown-up decision. Okay. I wish there was a, I wish there was like, I just do this and this. There's a, here's the chest move. It just doesn't work like that. And I want to go back. Like, it's impossible to go back. You know, I just, I want it back the way it was. And it's not, it can't be. And so. I know. Okay. Let me ask you a hard question. Okay. Who's going to become that safe person for you now? Yeah, I don't know. That's your work. Yeah.

Okay. It might be finding two or three other women in your life. And it's one of those rare things that you only have a few opportunities to have 25 or 30 year friendships, right? Right. Yep. And how old are you now? 45. Yeah, dude. You've got time to have a couple of 45 year old friendships that you start today, which sounds weird. And I've, I think I've mentioned this recently in the show. I don't remember. Um, but I got a couple of friends that were, when I say ride or die, we're like, I don't

I trusted with everything. Yeah. We don't talk anymore. We don't, we don't. Haven't had contact with him in several years. And part of me, my heart's broken. And part of me has some relief because we grew to be very, very, very different. And part of me is really grateful for the time we had. Yeah. And then I have to decide what kind of day I want to have today and tomorrow because I can't go back and do anything differently in the past.

But there's no, there's no, like, uh, I break up with you. Like there isn't romantic relationships with friends and it's so hard. It is. I know. God, and the thought of meeting new people is just, I know it's the worst. I'll do it. I'll do it. I mean, it's the best, but it's just hard. No, it's not the best. Anyone who says that you need to go see a psychiatrist. It's not, it's the worst. It's the worst. And I'll tell you,

Man, I've made some friends at 35, 40. They're amazing. Amazing people. Yeah. This is crazy. Some people I met at 40 have become number one of who would take my kids if we died. Me and my wife passed away. Wouldn't have seen that coming. No. In a million years.

And we vacation together. You know what? I don't do vacation together. I don't shower every day and I don't vacation with other people. Now I do both of those things, right? Like we just, we change. Yeah. And it's, it's a moment of like grief and it's a moment of what comes next. And it's a moment of optimism and joy. And it's a moment of sadness. It's a moment of all of it. Yeah.

And I will just make a choice because I get to make up whatever story comes next. I get to make up a story that this, she's going to get back into an awful relationship. This guy's terrible and it's all going to end in fire and flames. I can make that story up and I'll get my cortisol and adrenaline pumping and it'll get me all fired up and make me feel powerful and indignant. I can make that story up. I can also make up a story where this guy went and did a lot of work and he changed his life.

And there's been a slow, that flame of love and connection never went out despite the harm that was done. And, and he's put the work in and he doesn't have to be for you. So maybe this thing lives happily ever after. I get to make up that story. So I'm going to choose that story. And then the question you have to ask yourself is, all right, what's, what's going to be next? I got to go meet new people. I got to go to the softball league. I got to go bowling. I got to whatever it is, have a book club.

And then if you're like me, you get lucky and you keep showing up and you keep showing up. And last night I was in a room with seven other guys that I did not know. I didn't know them five years ago. And we were playing music together until we had to stop. It was a blast. It was a blast. We weren't great, but it was a blast. You're worth the friends you've had and you're worth the friends that you're moving on to and you're worth your values. And sometimes those things clash. Thank you so much for the call, Ellen. I know there are,

literally millions of people there right where you are. We grieve it and we celebrate it. It's all of it, both and. Then we pick up the phone and say, hey, you wanna go get some coffee? You wanna go fishing? Let's go hang out. And we take that next wobbly right step. Thanks for the call, Ellen. We'll be right back. I'm so proud that Thorne Supplements, my favorite supplements on the planet, have continued to partner with me and our show listeners for health, longevity, and just feeling good.

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Go to thorn.com slash you slash Deloney. That's thorn, T-H-O-R-N-E dot com slash the letter U slash Deloney for 25% off everything in the store. I trust Thorn. My family trusts Thorn. And you can trust Thorn too. All right, we are back. Kelly, am I the problem?

All right, this is from Sarah in Canada, which you mentioned earlier. What is all these Canada calls? We are becoming quite a big deal in Canada, apparently. I think as that place slowly devolves... They're desperate? There is a kind of a goofball on the tubes that we can call. Yes. All right. So she uses the word for the... So you know in the Reddit thread, it's am I the...

They don't use the term problem. They use a word that I can't say. I'm going to have to surprise you. Yeah. I've logged into Reddit approximately zero times. Well, but they have a thread that it's, am I the...

A hole. Okay. So she uses that a number of times. The hole, not the cheeks part. Exactly. Okay. Yes. Am I the hole, not the cheeks part? She uses that a number of times in here, so I'm going to have to do a little editing. All right. So this is from Sarah. Just say, am I... The problem. The problem. There you go. Am I the problem for creating a large bubble around me, my new husband, and for our happiness and sanity?

In 2020, my mother sat down all six of her children and their partners, along with our father, in a family meeting and aired out the dirty laundry from their 32-year marriage, exposing an emotional relationship my father had behind her back. I, 26 years old, feel that this is inappropriate to air all of that out to us and blame their failed marriage only on my father. Yeah.

She continues to this day, four years later, to drag me through the details of their divorce and behaviors. I have the meeting echo through my brain over and over, overthinking and absorbing their problems as my own. I am a nurse. I'm in a new marriage. I do not need this. Am I the problem for creating this bubble?

mainly with her being the only one on the outside. Thank you for your advice. I'll try to incorporate some of the new skills into my life every day. Love, Sarah from Alberta. I love Sarah. I wouldn't call it a bubble. I think that kind of language can get confusing. If you choose not to talk to your mom, I think that is warranted and okay. If you choose to tell your mom, and I've recommended this to people for years,

Tell your parents when they start talking negatively about your other parent to stop and say, I don't want to hear about your marriage. I don't want to hear about dad. I don't want to hear about you and mom's sex life. Gross. I don't hear about dad's affairs. And sometimes parents will go, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. You're right. You're right. You're right. Other times they're looking for an ally or they're looking for support and they're trying to triangulate you and drag you into that.

And you are well within your rights. If a parent is immature in that way to try to drag their kid into, you got to be on my team. I'm not playing teams. That's my mom. And that's my dad. That's my parents. This is the, I'm not doing that. So yes, I wouldn't call it a bubble, but I do think drawing a boundary and say, mom,

I don't appreciate you doing that. And I'm not going to listen to any more conversations about dad or any more conversations about your marriage. Like that is y'all's business. And if you need to talk to somebody, get a therapist because I am your daughter and his daughter. What do you think? A hundred percent. Mom's the problem. Who has a family meeting? Like sits everybody plus the spouses. Kelly, we're going to have a show forever. Yes. Forever. Who sits them down and with dad sitting there and be like,

Let me air all of this. How uncomfortable was that family meeting? In front of this spouses. Right. With your spouses who are probably like, why am I here? So great. It's kind of awesome. Mom clearly needs to talk to somebody and it's not her children. No, mom needs to watch Frozen 1.

And she needs to learn the soundtrack. And there's one great line. Just let it go. Let it go. 34 years. 34 years. Don't hold it back anymore. Yeah. Let it go. Let it go. In the wise words of Elsa. Of Elsa. Good. Kelly, we're going to have a job forever. Yeah. Forever. On behalf of the mental health practitioners of America, North America, thank you to parents who call family meetings.

six kids and their romantic partners to tell them about something that happened 34 years ago. We thank you. And we only take cash. Love you guys. Bye.