Crisis Expert: The Best Way to Respond to Moments of Crisis (With Dr. Andy Young)
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Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. And I think my total time in the car in the backseat with him was maybe 45 minutes. But it's a long 45 minutes sitting in silence with someone who is trying to comprehend the death of their wife and just weeping. I'm here and I'm just looking for anything that I can do. And if there's nothing I can do, then my prayer is help me not make it worse. Yeah, don't make it worse.

What in the world is going on? This is John with Dr. John Deloney's show. Show about your relationships, your mental and emotional health, your physical health, whatever you got going on in your life. Do not miss this episode. This is an episode that's been a long, long, long time coming. And I am more thrilled about this episode than probably any other episodes I've had. And here's why. I invited...

My mentor, the guy who trained me on crisis response, the guy who's my psychology professor back in my undergrad, the guy who I sat with after miscarriage one and two and three, the guy that's just been with me every step of the way, Dr. Andy Young. Andrew T. Young, as they say. He was a psychology professor, grad school professor for a quarter century, and he also has been partnering with

police departments and leads the crisis response and victim services units at a number of different departments in Texas and has now left the university and trains police departments all over the United States from New York to tax everywhere, all over the place. Um, one of the best in the business and a pioneer in creating, um, mental health approaches to taking care of hurting people in local communities. It's amazing.

but more importantly, he's my friend. And here's a big important thing about this episode. Um, this is not good for kids, not appropriate for children. And we talk about some of the call outs that we had, the, the, the scenes that we've gone through and, and things that we've been a part of. And so if you've got a sensitivity to, um, some, I don't want to say graphic, but some pretty clear explanation explanations on some situations that we've both been through. Um,

then this may not be for you, but it's definitely not for kids. But I do think it's a really important listen. As one of the things we talked about in this episode, I would drive home at 1, 2, 3, 4 in the morning down a neighborhood road in a suburban neighborhood after having just dealt with a wild, brutal, heartbreaking situation in a home and

And I just thought, man, nobody knows this happened in their neighborhood. So these calls are happening in your neighborhoods. People are hurting your neighbors. And we talk about how to deal with political issues, how to deal with hurting people, what are the steps you take when you're sitting down with someone who's hurting, struggling, their world's blown up, and you're going to get to meet with my coach.

the guy, one of my 101 coaches, man. And so thank you so much for listening to this. He also has a book out called Fight or Flight. He's got another book out called Whenever Your Word Counts. And we'll link to all that stuff in the show notes. But we don't talk about his books on the show. We just talk about how to be somebody who shows up in the lives of others. So thank you so much for sitting and just kind of digesting, metabolizing, and being with me and Dr. Andy Young in this important conversation.

I want to start talking about a situation that happened where you ended up in the backseat of the car with a young man who kind of the whole world blew up. Okay, so the gentleman who was driving in the car with his wife. That's right, yeah, with his wife, yeah. And they got in a feud. Do you know what the fight was about? Yes, the fight was about...

Family drama. Okay. Yeah. Jealousy. Okay. Yeah. So there was jealousy between the two of them. She got angry enough to get out of the car. It was 30 minutes before the new year.

So this is New Year's Eve. New Year's Eve, driving around town. We get in a fight over family things. That's never happened to any of us. Exactly. Ever, right? She gets out of the car. He kind of drives off, but it's January. It's cold. He comes back. And so she is walking along a two-lane road into traffic. He is on this lane, and he pulls over. He's like, come on, get back in the car, whatever. And she's like, okay, fine, and steps into the lane of traffic. Okay.

Car going the speed limit, which was 50 or 55, just knocked her out of her shoes. And so he watched it, was there as she died. I got the call right after midnight, show up on scene. I'll tell the funny parts too. Hopefully it's not too jarring. I show up on scene and they got the road blocked off and I see a car over there. I'm like, oh, I guess that's where my victim is. So I'm supposed to check in with officers before I do my thing, but I just got ahead of myself. Yeah.

So I start heading to this car, and I hear over my shoulder, Andy, get out of there. I'm like, that's kind of weird. Somebody's messing with me. So I continue on, and then I hear the cop authoritative voice, Andy, get out of there. I'm like, Roger. And I go away. Two cars, foop, foop, come up. Felony stop on the car. Pull the guy out. He's got gun warrants or whatever, totally unrelated to anything. The guy just got stopped at the perimeter, and somebody ran his plate, and –

So I was totally in the wrong spot. So you have a whole scene happening. Oh, and you walked into the wrong scene. I went to the wrong. The scene unfolded in front of me. Wow. Yeah. And they're like, no, Andy, your victim's over there. Oh, man. So I walked down the street. They're like, yeah, the husband of the deceased is in the back of this patrol car because it's cold. Is he freaking out? Or just kind of shell shocked? I get into the car. He doesn't look.

Look at me. I mean, no recognition of anybody there. He's just looking out the window of the car, and the car's too close to the scene. So there's her purse, and there's her shoes and stuff like that. EMS had scooped her up and taken her to the hospital, but no. And so he's just repeating, it can't be true. It can't be true. It can't be true. And I'm like, I don't say a word. Just sit there next to him.

I think I actually have the in-car camera of this whole exchange. I've used it in class teaching crisis intervention. And, you know, how am I to insert myself into this man's world and reality right now? He's still trying to get – and we've talked about this – just trying to get my mind around my new reality. And so I just hold what you got. Didn't even introduce my name.

And at some point, I think he turns to me and says, I just want to go home. And I'm like, sir, I get that. And in the back of my mind, I don't want to be the one who's restraining this man here. But I know the police are going to want to talk to him about what happened. He's a witness, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I'm sure the officers will talk to you as quickly as they can, get you home. Is there anyone at home?

Is there anyone I could call? That kind of stuff. Because I don't want this man to be alone. And he's like, no. I'm like, no friends? He's like, no, no, no, no. I'm like, oh. Then he goes back to looking out the window. And it usually goes in a circle. Loops and loops and loops. It can't be true. I can't believe this. Ask a question. Doesn't even look at me. But he's there. And then we lose. And so it's circular. And so knowing that is kind of helpful. All right. I'll just be here while he's at the bottom of the circle trying to comprehend his new reality.

And I think my total time in the car in the backseat with him was maybe 45 minutes. But it's a long 45 minutes sitting in silence with someone who is trying to comprehend the death of their wife and just weeping.

uncontrollably and sometimes kind of hitting himself in the face. And this is kind of jarring, but I'll throw it out there. I was taught that my safety is more important than other people's safety. And if you have to choose, you don't sacrifice yourself first. Don't drive too fast to a call and die. So now we have two wrecks. Don't get assaulted on the call because the cops have a lot going on, stuff like that. So I'm sitting in the back of this patrol car and I've got

abnormally long legs and so the prisoner shield is just right there so I'm all because my femurs are too long and I got my foot in the door because I'm in the back of a patrol car and that locks you in and I'm like I don't want to be locked in with a stranger I trust him but you never know blah blah so I'm just all kind of and he starts hitting himself in the face like it can't be true come on get yourself together and I'm like I don't know this man you know do I put my hand on him art as much as science yeah

So, spent my time with this gentleman. I don't think I ever even introduced myself. Then they wanted to take him to the police department, give a statement. I waited outside. He came out. His brother picked him up. So apparently he...

There was someone, yeah. But, you know, the memory. And I never saw the man again. So it's kind of an anti-climax, but I think it does really embody the nature of walking with somebody through the valley of the shadow of death, especially when they're a stranger. That, you know, I'm here and I'm just looking for anything that I can do. And if there's nothing I can do, then my prayer is, help me not make it worse. Yeah, don't make it worse. You were the person that I called and that Sheila called when my wife, when...

We were going through that season of miscarriage after miscarriage, and as we sat with you, and we talked about last night, like when the third pregnancy, which became the third miscarriage in a row, she has an ectopic pregnancy and it ruptures, and my wife's a scary, tough West Texas farm girl, and she's like, this isn't happening. I got this. So she almost bleeds out in the house and gets to the hospital in time, and our mutual friend Jennifer Fye was the doctor and was just like,

Anyway, um...

I remember sitting in those little – it's like this room. It's like a cell, right? The waiting room. It is like a jail cell. And there's nobody in there. And I'm waiting for them to come out and tell me my wife had died. And a mutual buddy of ours, the big tall rancher, comes in with his hat on and sits down by me and said no words. Right. One hour, two hours, just silent. Right. And then when they came in and said, hey, we saved your wife. We lost the baby. We saved your wife. I exhale, and he started crying tears I didn't have yet. Yes. But both of those stories –

So I went to a ton of grad school. I went to a do-all, like what do you say and how do you do it and all the drills and all the training. And one of the most common questions I get, last night, last night after we got done with dinner, I'm on the phone with the parents of a teenager in our extraneous circle who's going through some hard stuff and said some things and just gets all the balls rolling, right? Sure.

everybody wants to know what to say and I don't want to make the call. Hey, we'll call Deloney because he'll call. I don't know what to say. I don't know how to say it. I don't know what to do. So you end up either with these pithy,

What I call hurtful, stitched-in-a-pillow sayings. Right. Or you say nothing. Yep. So how do you talk to somebody? How do you teach somebody? Sure. Often the most valuable thing you can give another human being is just your presence. Don't say anything. Right. So our training, Carl Rogers, founding father of counseling, he really emphasizes the power of a calm, empathetic presence. Mm-hmm.

And that's real easy for people to underestimate, that the fact that you're there, the fact that you're caring. My wife mentioned a dinner last night. She's watching me work a jumper call out, and she's just sitting in the car praying. Thank you. Because this is horrible. And so at least for me in teaching this stuff is trying to help people change their mindset that I have to do something. My wife is a fixer. Someone's crying, I hand them a tissue.

When I was an intern, you know, the supervision and we all throw rocks at the tapes of us doing our job. One of my first tapes, I got a tech student whose boyfriend cheated on her. She's in there crying. First thing I do is grab the tissue and try to make her feel better. My supervisor stops it and goes, Andy, what are you doing?

And I pulled an answer out of my ear because I'm just an intern. I was like, trying to help a girl who's crying? And he's like, what did you communicate to her when you handed her a tissue? And I was like, ooh, I communicated suck it up, stop crying because it makes me uncomfortable. He's like, yeah, exactly. Is it helpful for a grieving person to get it out? Yes. Can you be a safe environment for that person to do so? Can you not get in the way of her tears? Mm-hmm.

Roger O'Brien. Yeah. So it's helping people kind of check themselves and let it play out. It's really hard to let something go when you don't know where it's headed. Yeah.

And it's easy to assume this is going to get worse instead of better. So it's been helpful to me to remember it was probably circular as a part of – as opposed to, oh, it's going to get so much worse and I can't even handle this. Well, and Kelly and I have talked about it. Kelly went through a bout of breast cancer and obviously she's still here. Yeah.

But we talked about how often people have illnesses like cancer or they lose somebody. They find themselves in a caretaker role because everyone in the world can't handle. Right. Like they'll see somebody at church and they'll just come up and start sobbing. Right. Or at the grocery store and they're like, oh, now I got to make sure you're okay. I'm here for you. Right. And so it –

It's been my experience. The greatest gift is can I show up to someplace and be still? Right. And I'm a talker. I talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. It's okay. I'm in this situation. The best thing I can do, the greatest gift I can give is something you taught me back in the day. And I remember how unnerving it was for people when I was working in university. Someone would come running into my office and say, so-and-so is cutting or so-and-so said they're going to kill themselves.

And I'd always walk. Yep. And a sentence you gave me, gave us all when you were training us, was calm is contagious. Yeah. And if I go running down the hallway going, I bring my crazy to an already chaotic moment. Right. How do you teach somebody to be calm? Is there some practices or is there some? Sure. Well, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is mindfulness. Yeah. Or anything related to it.

uh, as a father, uh, I go to, we got to learn to regulate our emotions and our thoughts. Yeah. So all different paths to the same seven year old, just like I want ice cream. Right. Yeah. And so be it, I want ice cream or I want to help somebody and fix somebody or holy crap, what am I going to do? Or this is unnerving and now I'm unnerved. You need to be able to give somebody something that they don't have in this moment. And if you're in the same spot,

Now you're part of the deal and we got to get somebody else in route. And it's also important to remember that guy sitting in the back of the car or me in that moment. Yeah. What's funny is my memory is that Nathan said nothing. Yeah. I don't know if that's actually right. Yeah. Because what I do know is I'm not absorbing contextual information. No, you got your bell wrong. That's right. And that guy in the back of the car that got in a fight with his wife and just saw her get hit by a car and she's dead now.

he anything you tell him no he's not computing that he will absorb peace exactly or he'll absorb chaos one of those two he'll get up he'll get ramped up or he can get he can get reminds me of a story yeah so stories are good i get called to the completed suicide of a 15 year old friends called it in it was right down the street from the university so i got there real quick

Me patrol in the front yard. My partner shows up. The friends who had called it in are over there, so I send my partner over there. Officer says, parents are en route. We're going to have to tell them what happened.

You know, death notifications are tough. And this car, you can see it. It's coming quick. I'm like, all right, there they are. And so we all kind of line up in the driveway. Dad gets out. Mom gets out. Police officer tells him what happened. Mom just right there in the driveway. Dad takes off like, mm-mm. And so I throw my little intern at him. You take care of dad. And I am in my I'm a professor outfit, and I just sit on the driveway with her in the heat and say nothing.

Dad does flybys. He looks angry, doesn't say anything, flies away. My little intern is like, no, no, no. He does that a few times. I got the angry vibe. And so first thing I said to this wife was, ma'am, would you like us to leave you alone, give you your privacy? It seems your husband's a little agitated, whatever, because that was the first thing I said to her after sitting on her driveway. She turns to me and goes, I don't know who you are, but don't leave me. Mm.

Roger, sit back down. Yeah, sit back down. So just to illustrate the point. I said nothing. I sat on the driveway and let this woman try and get her faculties about her and was there. And kind of like you looking at me, I'm looking at her like,

What are we doing? And then I'm thinking, that's too much eye contact, Andy. Look at the ground for a little while. I don't want to make her uncomfortable. Well, and I think it's also important for folks to know we had a situation here where I was walking in the bathroom and Dave was on the radio. And he is a savant when it comes to – there's something behind the something behind the something. So he's talking to somebody who's asking a question about selling our house. Yeah. And –

He gets some sixth sense and he says, ma'am, are you safe right now? And in a very – she just – in the same – she goes, no, no. And he said, are you in danger right now? And she's like, yeah.

But it's a – she's wise enough to not change anything. Oh, my goodness. And I just happened to be walking to the bathroom. Yeah. And Kelly's sitting there on the phones and she pulls her headset off. She goes, this one, right? So they go to commercial break and – Dude, you're a negotiator at this point. We're on. Yeah, it's on. And it is – this guy's got my baby and they're about to back out and he's going to kill me. And so they're – I mean Kelly and her team are trying to find police and where is he. And they did an amazing job. The police did an amazing job. Yeah. But there was a –

It worked out well. And you know as well as I like in those moments, I found out who the first person she ever slept with was. And she just starts talking and you're kind of laughing and I need you to get out of the car. But I also – so there was – it worked out well. She ended up okay. The police got the bad guy. Dave paid for her to get a lot of care. It was amazing. Brilliant. Brilliant.

And there was also a lot of trial and error going on in that, right? Sure. So I've been in those situations a lot, and I think it's good to know that if you show up and your friend's not well, and you're trying to sit in their presence, and you're like, I don't know if I look down, look up, or look up. Those of us who do that all the time do that too, right? It makes me think of my biggest mistake. Yeah. Call.

Completed suicide of a high school student. I show up on the driveway. Lieutenant says, family sitting in the living room. Son hung himself in his bedroom. Go. Three in the morning. I walk in. Dad's on the couch. Mom's in a Lazy Boy. Brother's over here. Don't say a word. Just sit down. Silent. Mom turns to me. My paraphrase, I didn't see it coming. He seemed a little sad, maybe a little depressed, but it didn't really match up with this.

My training is the best thing you can do, the least harm you can do is just to paraphrase it back to him. So I went there. I just said it back to her. Dad loses it, climbs my tree. What kind of doctor are you? La, la, la. I'm like, how does he even know I'm a doctor? So he's like. Then he sits back down. It's quiet.

I apologize, sir. I didn't. Sorry. Oh, I don't know what kind of doctor you are. And even the mom and the son are like, dad, he's just trying to help. I don't know what kind of doctor you are. I get F-bombed. Yeah, yeah. Loved it. Yeah. He chills out again. I'm like, I don't think I'm going to be a lot of help here. Yeah. Sir, would you like me to leave? Yeah, I'd like you to leave. Get out of the, Roger. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I leave. I'm going to my car selfishly. I'm like, it's 3 a.m. I got to work in the morning. I get to sleep some. Then I stop. I'm like, mm-mm. Emmy's going to show up, body bag, gurney, all that stuff. There might still be something for me to do. I stand on the porch like some peckerwood. One of the cops comes out. He's this guy. He folds his hands. He looks at me and goes, so what'd you do wrong? Yeah. Thanks, Sully. I really appreciate that, buddy. You tell me. I don't know how I set this off. He's like, I don't know either.

either. Lieutenant comes out. He's like, what happened? I'm like, bro, if you can find out, I would love that. And he's like, all right, well, let me figure it out. Friend shows up. ME shows up. He's like, Andy, what are you doing out here? Because we've stood over a few dead bodies together. I'm like, I just got kicked out. And she's like, my job's going to be real hard if you're getting kicked out. Lieutenant comes back out. He's like, I figured it out. I'm like, okay, cool. What's the deal? He's like, well, I introduced you to this family. It's Dr. So-and-so or whatever.

Friend just told me that the husband probably threw your doc out because he's upset about there being an affair with a doctor in the history here. Oh.

Oh, so it has nothing to do with me. So another piece of this is you show up and do your best, but it could go wrong. There's so much else there that you don't know about and you can inadvertently touch it. It's not your fault. And then you get all the consequences of it. And I've had to learn to be okay with, I'm bearing the consequences of all the people in your life who did you wrong. And it's not my fault, but we get to work through that together too. So it's

multi-layers and disorienting yeah two of the the the the time I spent with you guys you and your team the the two major lessons that I walked away with was um there can't be any ego in helping other people right I'm not there to save the day so that I saved the day right there is a mom a

whose four-year-old is dead in that room. And the job is, if I can play one piece of a puzzle, getting her to a little bit more of a... This is a 25, 30, 40-year journey she's on now. Exactly. And if I can be a part of, say, and start your engines, that's like... But my ego wants to see her smiling and laughing again, and that's not my deal, right? That was a huge one. And the other one was the anxiety. I walked around and started like, what happens, what happens? And you sit with enough moms, you're like...

Oh, this is what happens. This is the worst case. And so now I can go live my life. It was a strange freedom. Exactly. It was a strange freedom. I do my job. I know my part. I know what's not my part. Check my ego. Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. October is the season for wearing costumes. And if you haven't started planning your costume, seriously, get on it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go as Brad Pitt because we have the same upper body, but whatever. Look, it's costume season. And if we're being honest...

A lot of us hide our true selves behind masks and costumes more often than we want to. We do this at work. We do this in social settings. We do this around our own families. We even do this with ourselves. I have been there multiple times in my life, and it's the worst thing.

If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self behind costumes and masks, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself, where you can be honest with yourself, and where you can take off the mask and the costumes and learn to live an honest, authentic life.

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Take off the costumes and take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash deloney. It's almost the HRification, legalification. It's this world where everybody's afraid to say anything.

and nobody wants to do anything, so nothing happens. Right. Fear. Fear. Yeah, fear. And one of the things you taught me early on was say the thing, say it directly and with compassion, but say the thing, whatever the thing is. Right. And it has been staggering. I think you were the lead teacher in one of the courses I took on

suicide intervention. Yeah. And I remember there was a big loop-de-loop and tried this and then the end question was, has anyone just asked that guy if he's thinking of killing himself? And it was like, what? Oh, that should be a question. All right. So, I've got to a place now where I had the conversation last night. Are you planning on, like, and my heart rate doesn't get up. It's not a weird thing. Right. That's a question that melts people. Yes. Did you have an affair? Yeah. Melts people. Or,

You and I have both been in, you've a thousand times more than I have. Mine was just once or twice, where you're listening to somebody who's really trained in these things fumbling through a, well, it was a dark and stormy night, right? And it's like, your husband was in a wreck and he has died, right? And it's like, let's get to that thing. Because the moment somebody opens the door and sees this, they're in fight or flight. They're not hearing anything, right? Right. How do you teach somebody, say the thing?

Yeah. Right? And speak as little as possible, but speak directly. And the phrase you taught us was fax your friends. I'm going to say the thing and I'm going to tell the truth. I'm going to tell what I know and what I don't know. Yeah. And then we're going to go from there. Yeah. There's been more than one time walking up to a house with a police officer and we're about to do a death notification. And while we're walking up, the officer's like, how do we do this? Yeah.

So the door is open for teaching in that moment because we're about to get hit by a train or whatever. And so my 60-second tutorial has been, I mean, you've outlined it. Your job, sir, because you know what happened and they didn't, is to say that as quickly, as efficiently as possible with the compassion and empathy. You are going to be hurting for them, and your empathy is actually going to kind of get you in the way because they haven't gotten caught up to where we are yet. So you've got to get them caught up.

So say it clearly and concisely, and you're going to have to get to the punchline, and you're going to have to say the words, and nobody wants to say the words. We had a call out once. Our friend got killed. One of our guys on the negotiating team didn't know what happened yet. My team leader met him in the street, and he's like, all right, boss, what do I need to do yet? And he's like, hold on. You don't know about Josh yet, do you? He's like, no, what are you talking about? And my friend...

artfully articulates, I did not want to be the guy to say this. I distinctly have been, you know, right before you knock on the door, I'm about to wreck this person's whole life. There's a before and after. I'm about to play that part. And if I wait 30 more seconds to knock on this door, they get to keep their life. I don't want to be that guy. And so there's some coming to terms with, you're the guy. Mm-hmm.

however you want to make sense of that but you got to be okay with i'm the guy in this moment and you need to embrace that and part of being the guy is i get to say it clearly and concisely and then i gotta punctuate it because they just got their bell rung your husband is deceased whatever that means and then we wait and see how we can help them as they absorb what we just told them and some people scream to be able to drop to the floor somebody turn around and act like it didn't right um you

This can't be true. Yeah. It's a ping pong. Right. And I can't forecast for you what happens next, but we've kind of covered here's our best that we can give somebody as they are absorbing. My wife almost died, but she didn't. My son, daughter is not going to be part of our family. That's a lot. So take it out. That's a unique context that most people will never experience. Or they may go through it once, right? Right.

The next layer and the next layer is you find out your friend's wife's having an affair. Yeah. Here's one that impacted me that I didn't catch. My buddy Kevin, he's about 10 years older than me. We were getting off the phone one day. This is probably 10 years ago. And he said, Johnny, I want you to know that I love you. And I started laughing. I was like, nope, we're not doing that, right? Silly feelings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can take your feelings and – Yeah.

But as I reflected on it, I realized how few people in the world tell me that. Right. How even fewer people I tell that. Yep. And my dad was a homicide detective raised by a World War II vet who was raised by a dad who died at 10, right? It's not a part of how we do things. My father was an aerospace engineer. Yeah, same. It's same. And –

When I would get home from college and park my car, the next morning my dad was out getting the oil changed. He was saying I love you with all of his actions. Right. Behavior is communication. There you go, yeah. That's what we say here, behavior is language. Like, what was he telling you? But then I had the privilege for a few years sitting with folks who would do anything. They would have mortgaged the house we were sitting in for one more playback so I could just make sure you know what I think about you before I get this news. And so...

Talk to the single mom. Talk to the dad. Like this, the tough guy dad who just wants to be a better dad. Like there is power in saying the thing, whatever the thing is, right? No kidding. And getting to the point. Right. Get to the point. Yeah. And so we've been hammering away at, you know, life-changing horrible point. So I'm glad we're kind of pivoting to life-changing positive stuff. Yeah. So my dad, similar thing, just never said it. I knew it was there, never said it. I have a 10-year-old son now.

I'm leaving to go on a trip and just took a few minutes. Hey, I'm going to miss you. Keep in touch. Love you. Just said it. That was never said to me. As I'm walking out of the room, it just kind of clicked. I've never been given that. And when you've never been given that, you have some sense of the impact that it might have on a little boy.

He'll never know what it's like to not have that. And what kind of privilege is it for me? Though it wasn't given to me, I was able to cobble this together and give it to him. To hand it off. And so I was bragging to you. My daughter is 13 and never been bullied.

It was glorious. Yeah. My son has been given a gift that I was never given. So hopefully people who have never been given it can see the value of it. Right. And then they can make the leap to, ooh, giving this to somebody else. Even though I never had it and I got to work through my pain, giving it to somebody else might be good for them and might start me on my healing too. That's right. Well, and I have to walk through telling my young son. I remember after a lecture in grad school about –

the nerve endings in the face and how touching the human face has something, a reset on your nervous system. Right. So I immediately extrapolated that. Like I'm gonna start touching my son on his face and tell him I love him. And it was this moment of, I would do that and I would feel awkward and weird. Dude. Cause I don't have a model for it. I don't have a picture for it. Right. And then I would feel ashamed that I felt weird that I just did a thing that I should be able to do. Right. And so then the tendency I have is to never do that again. Right. I don't want to feel awkward. Cause it feels bad. Right. Right. And then it's like, no, no, no.

When it comes to being a dad. Right. Especially in the modern era, right? It's like, you will go do hard things. Right. True. For me, the hardest thing isn't lifting weights and going to MMA practice. The hardest thing is looking at my son. Right. Who now we're eye to eye. Yeah. And still holding his face and saying, I love you. Well, and part of that is how do I work through my own awkward feelings? Yeah. I like being a master of something before I show it to other people. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And if I wait on that, my kid's going to be out of the house. Exactly. And so, all right, I got to take my medicine and be bad at this in front of people. Yeah, yeah. I hate that. Yeah. But I don't know another path other than directly through the awkward feeling. No. Right through it. Trying to help somebody with anxiety. What's the best way to deal with anxiety? Right through it. Go face it. Yeah, yeah. What's the best way to deal with awkward and I don't know how to tell my son I love him?

Once a day for 30 days and all of a sudden you might get better at it. Right, right. I was with a couple a few months ago and I looked at the guy and I said, when's the last time you said I'm sorry? And he said, I don't say that. There we go, man. I was like, what do you mean you don't say that? He's like, she doesn't need that. And I was like, I don't know y'all, but a hundred, like everybody needs that, right? But it's finding that I, maybe all the way back to- Yeah.

Hey, you got to call your brother because you just got a call from just this morning. One of my closest friends in the world just sent a text that said my mom passed. And she had Alzheimer's. They were waiting for it. It's going to happen. He said, I'm a mess. I can't talk. But I just want you all to know. There we go. But he said as directly as possible. Yes. My mom just passed, period. All right. And so –

That, you'll have to make that call. Yeah. You'll have to tell people that you love them. Yep. You'll have to tell people that you're sorry. You'll have to tell people, I appreciate the job offer, but I'm not taking it. I watched my mom do something for my grandfather, my father's father, and he didn't say thank you afterward. My mom called him on it. Because this long history, why don't you tell people thank you? He had an answer just like that. The thank you is implied, you know.

And I watched my mom correct him. Anyway. Yeah. But also the reverse, when I was leaving Texas to move to Nashville. And as you know, as a Texan, you know, they train you like Al Qaeda is waiting at the Arkansas border. If you leave Texas, it's all coming down. Right. And I remember I asked my dad, who was 70, to meet me in a coffee shop. Yeah. Like outside Abilene, about two hours away. Yeah. And it was just a quick, I just need you to know you did a good job with us.

That was the first time I ever seen my dad get choked up. Nice. But it was those – it took me two hours to get the courage to say something that I believe with all my heart. Right. But it's – you can say the thing. Right. Say it. Put a period at the end of it. That's right. And it's very hard to not want the response you're looking for. That's the ego part. I can't control the outcome here. I'm going to do the next right thing. I'm going to do my part. I'm going to sleep at night, and I'm going to be a better person because I did what was in front of me to do.

It's really hard not to be tied to the outcome, but as a crisis counselor, hostage negotiator, whatever, I love the metaphor from an FBI guy, Vince D'Alfonso. You can tell people and teach people how to land the plane, but they got to land the plane. So I tell my dad I love him. I've never done that before, and he's like,

You're a sissy. Watch out. Right, right, right. That's on him, buddy. My dad talked to me when I was a really young kid, and so this is just him kind of talking. Right. And I had the privilege of having a hostage negotiator for a dad. But one of the things he taught me as a young guy was to always be cognizant of ears around you. Oh, man. And that came from...

Him and his homicide detective colleagues walking through scenes, and there'd be a reporter on scene. Oh, boy. And there was this dark humor that has to be a part of that for you to stay sane. Exactly. And I got that intellectually when you're a kid. Like, yeah, you got to make funny jokes. Right. It's strange when one of the top ten hardest I've ever laughed was –

I went to a scene. A young man had died by suicide. Sister was in the house. And she said mom and dad were about two or three hours away. So they were coming home. Yeah. And the head officer on scene had said, your job is to meet mom in the yard. She cannot come in. She cannot come in this house. Sister's sobbing, hears this, and comes out and says, I need y'all to know mom's going to go to jail. You will not keep her out of this house. And I was like, well, and she goes,

You will not keep my mom out of this house. Everybody's going to go to jail. She's going to assault. She's going to do it. She can't get in this house. And so the lead officer looks at me and says, well, it looks like it's you and me. And he pulls out a pair of rubber gloves and hands them to me. And I was like, okay, we're doing it. All right. We're going to go clean this scene up so we can get this body out of here. We can clear the house. So just expedited everything. Let's go.

Good on him. Yeah, it was great. And that was like, all right, we're in it now, right? Sure. So we put on gloves and we started cleaning up the scene and we're cleaning up a really gruesome situation. And it started with one little quip to another quip to another quip. Right. To where both me and this officer are unable to move. We're laughing so hard. Right. And to be clear, you guys are dealing with horrific things.

And you're trying to cope with that. That's right. And so it's not laughter like I did at the comedy club the other night. Right. It is almost a – I can't describe it other than my stomach hurt. I'm weeping from laughing so hard. But it's not joyful laughter. It's almost self-protective laughter. We're cleaning up parts of a person. It's like the gloves. There you go. There you go.

How do you navigate your – I don't know. Everybody has self-protective responses. You say things with your wife when she says something to you, and it just happens. Or you start laughing when you get a call. Or you start sobbing. You don't want to be crying, but here it is. How do you handle some of those innate what I would call protective measures? Right. As your body tries to take care of you, whether you're cleaning up a dead body, you're trying to deal with a broken marriage. I've sat with people when they say –

I've been having an affair. Yeah. And she just starts...

Roaring laughing. Right. Right? Or he just starts sobbing like he's nine. Yeah. In a very, it's a jarring way. How do you, A, handle that on your end? Yes, because that's where it starts. That's where it starts. And B, how do you give grace and compassion for somebody's instant response? Because it's easy to judge them on that. Oh, yeah. And I've seen a lot of things that are very easy to judge from the outside. Yeah. Telling a gentleman that his wife, it was right before Thanksgiving, your wife died in a car wreck. Well, there goes my Thanksgiving dinner.

Yeah. Didn't expect that. Yeah. I really want to judge your relationship with your wife right now. Right, right. Or maybe it's shock. And so having multiple explanations that you can go to instead of my judgment is always right on the first try. And it's always going to be the most negative spin I can put on that. Right. Partly because I'm a bad person. It's true. Yeah. So slowing my roll.

Having multiple explanations, trying to be gracious. All right, well, hopefully he doesn't mean that. Maybe we'll find out later if this is true or not. So multiple explanations for what you're seeing. Be slow to judge.

And for me, I would like people to be slow to judge me. Right. Right? Yeah. And then, I mean, we've hit the theme of how do I regulate myself, be it my emotions, my reactions, or my sense of humor in my mouth. Yeah. Yep. And being a college professor, telling some of these stories in a class as an example, I have expanded the mechanism in my brain that kind of watches over this. Well, what if that person was standing in this room as you told this story? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. What if they can hear you? And so I try to carry that. You honor them through the story. Right? Yeah. The dude's lying in front of me. I went into a house to get the suitcase for the daughter of a man who came at Thanksgiving. He just reached out to her. They were at strength, and he ended up killing himself in her house right before Thanksgiving. I step over this dude, and as I look at him, and his eyes are open, he's looking at me. I got super mad.

And what this man just did, and I found that to be very selfish. That's not going to be real helpful for me to have all my emotional reactions right now. I'm going to have to put that aside and deal with that later. I probably shouldn't deal with it with her. And so also the muscle of priority of fire. What do we do first, second, third? And I'm going to have to be selfless and put that later. So be it sense of humor or anger or whatever. And what's my audience right now? Yeah.

I would be very sympathetic in your instance. I'm kind of helping that officer get through this too. Yeah. And I have that sense of I'm a born people pleaser. There you go. And so how can I help this guy? Because he was a young guy and it was clearly – This is not for me. This is a lot, right? Yeah. And they don't – I mean, you talk about it at Academy. Right. It's different when you're –

You can smell it. When you're trying to get brain matter down in sync, right? That's right. And it's just not like it is in the movies. That's right. And I talk about this stuff like I'm an expert, but I've crossed that line, you know, just like your instance. And so trying to learn those lessons for the next time. Yeah, yeah. So I made a mistake. I laughed too loud. We laughed too loud. It was disrespectful. I apologize. And I'm doing what I can to get through this thing. I like what you said about the withholding judgment. I...

The way I've characterized it is I've found myself over the years, some guy cuts me off. Yeah. I instantly make up a story about that guy. Right. And it's instantaneous. Sure. And it's that guy listening. Those guys who listen to that music, who drive those stupid little dropped Hondas, don't care about anybody, and they all do math. It's just this whole cascade of a story. You're very creative. It has no bearing on reality. Right. Maybe a little bit, but like none. Sure. And what I've found with myself is –

It's my cortisol that spikes. It's my adrenaline. It's my near stroke. Right. And it has no bearing on that driver. I'm going to pick on you a little bit. Yeah. Sounds like in that moment, you're the type of guy who judges everybody as an a-hole. Oh, yeah. What does that say about you? What does that say about me? Right. You're awfully jaded and you're too young for that. Exactly. Well, and is that the lens with which I'm going through the world? There it is. And I get to choose. Once I realized, oh, that's a story I just made up about that guy.

Right.

I need to teach him a lesson. Right. Yeah, yeah. They don't benefit from lessons anyway. Exactly. So what's going to help that guy? Or, going back full circle, presence and empathy and maybe a little bit of curiosity. Like, what's that driving? Maybe I could be an example to him too. Right, right. As he starts to come up this way, he'd be like, come on, man. Right. And it's, okay. Right. Yeah. And maybe not, maybe not, but I get to pick that story. Right. And going back to when I tell my wife something, if she instantly gets mad. All right. Maybe I...

She's had a rough one. Yeah. Or the example I use with my wife is, hey, I need you to... Can you please put those towels? It drives me crazy. Yeah. Like, they're just wet towels. Then the very next morning, I walk in, and there's wet towels on the floor. I can pick the story. Right. The story is, oh, she's just doing this to rub it in on me because she's... Right. Or...

good God, what is her day must have been. I'm going to go do dishes right now. Sure. I get to pick. Yeah. I get to pick. I think it benefits us to be gracious to people. And of course it benefits them. And we also have to trust that if it rises to the level of they're an evil psychopath, a-hole or whatever, that we'll know that and then we can start to get our distance. Or for an abusive relationship, hopefully we've got other relationships outside that people say, hey, I'm seeing something that's not good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to play defense all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

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I want to talk about election anxiety. Here we are. All right. We're in the last guy for this. I know. I know you are. And both of us probably are the last guy because we're pretty simplistic about it. Yeah. My hypothesis is election seasons, especially over the last three or four elections, because they're so psychotically contentious. Right. Insanely contentious. Right. Adversarial. Adversarial, which competitive is good. Adversarial is nuts. Right. You want to be the starting first baseman when you're the backup.

Trying to kill the first baseman so that you can play is insane. You're the same team. A little Machiavellian. I think my hypothesis is the reason in our country where we've kind of gone mad during election season is we really understand that when it all distills down, I go to the local YMCA and I get one vote. That's all I get. Well, if that's not enough, though. Right? But all of the news cycle, all of the ginning up is you better, you better. You have to. And I go in and I go –

Yeah. And that's it. Right. But this seems to be part of your identity. Yeah. So faced with what is a big deal. Right. What is – what appears to be we're going to go that direction and that direction, although I'm now getting old enough to where every election is the most important election of all time. And if you don't, then all of a sudden – I agree. I agree.

What do you tell somebody if they are just starting to sweat? Like it is, I'm feeling enraged. I'm feeling my body become something that is unnatural to me. Well, where's the fear coming from? Yeah. Is it coming from the news? You kind of covered that part. Turn it off. Is it coming from, I went to identity. Tell me about that. Yeah.

I have my set of needs, wants, values, and beliefs. This is me. And when the election ties into who I am, then I am also going to be compelled to, well, I got to do something about it, not only check a box, but rally and argue and all the rest of it. And so it really encompasses who I am, not just fear, but identity. And so, again, compels me to do something.

The metaphor or the example that comes to mind is I talk to a lot of police officers who have been a police officer for 30 years. Are you a cop or are you a person? Right. What happens when the cop ends? And so I see a similar dynamic. Are you a person or are you a Democrat, Republican? Yeah. Are you a husband or a wife or are you a – yeah. So I would encourage people to kind of separate that stuff out because if you're a Republican before you're a person –

That seems out of order to me. And when I've outlined it for people like that, they're like, okay, maybe I should slow down because that is not all of who you are. And if it is, we need to work on who you are. Yeah, because that should be the least interesting part about you. Sure. What else do you got? There you go. Do you have something more than police officer? Do you have something more than Democrat? If you don't, that might explain why you're so riled up by this thing. That's an interesting point. So I'm wondering if...

So I talked to someone recently who was resigning from an academic position after a long time. Okay. And...

They asked, like, what should I – and I said, before you hit send on your I'm not coming back next year, I want you to have a group of people that you already had said, hey, every Monday night we're going to do X. There we go. And I want you to backfill this because if you don't, the vacuum will be powerful. Oh, man. Like the vacuum of you are nothing without this. Yep. And so it may be an exposure of look how thin and hollow our actual lives are. Right. That a group of yelling people on the TV – Right.

Is now identified our world for us. Who are they? Yeah. Right. So I retired out of university professoring after 26 years. I started when I was like 24. Anyway, I had my life outside of it. And to your advice, I had a lot going on. And so it was actually, I probably should have retired a couple of years earlier because I had a lot of better things going on. Even with all of that in place,

Once I left, there was still a hole. I still had a little gap to jump over. And I was surprised by it because I was like, I got this. Uh-huh.

I'm not a professor anymore. It's past tense. Yeah. I just buried something. It's a quarter of a century. Right. And I started young. So even though I talk this big game, it's still kind of me. Yeah. Yeah. And so even when I think I did a pretty good job, you're still going to have to pay a little bit because you were invested. Yeah. Because you cared. And so maybe that feeling, that sense of loss or grief is good. It's a right. Yeah. That's right. And I love that you're invested in our system. Mm-hmm.

to what end to what point yeah what what's the expense on your part i think that's what we're trying to parse out are you burning all of your relationships to the ground are you unable to go to thanksgiving anymore just right yeah yeah there might be things you might have it switched a little bit and i get it that this is a big important thing to you i understand but comparatively maybe we need to have the right proportion and i i i'm always telling folks hey if you already know who you're gonna vote for yeah

Stop reading. Stop looking. Yeah, you've arrived. Yeah. Right? The purpose used to be we're going to debate the topics and figure it out. I'm on the fence. You already know now. Just turn it off. That advice reminds me of my lovely wife who likes to revisit decisions. Yeah.

Right. I'm not like that. I don't think you're like that. No. And so it's hard for me to help her because her personality is, well, let me make sure I made the right decision. What if something changed? The car's already in your driveway. What if, what if, what if? I'm not a big fan of what if. Yeah. And I don't know how to translate that to people like my wife who—

really are what if-ers because it serves a purpose. Now I know all the angles so I can't be surprised, fearful. I have some control. I'm like, ha-ha, you think you have control. So then we fight. What is –

How do you help somebody that's ruminating in the season? Well, you used the clinical word, and so I got all the statistics to back up how rumination correlates with anxiety and depression. Right. So are you anxious and depressed? Yes. All right, well, there's your cause. Right, right. Now, being the master of your own brain is a hard part. And so that's the most common thing I get. I'll tell people rumination is a waste of time. It doesn't help. Right. I think Brene Brown calls it dress rehearsing tragedy. Yes. It never plays out that way. No. And you think—

I'm going to imagine my wife, she's out tonight. I'm going to imagine her getting a car wreck and getting a car wreck. I promise you, I've sat with that husband. You can't predict what happens. And I've done the same thing because I do the work. I've put myself in that position. To what end? To what end? Right. I'm choosing to ruin this moment. Yeah, my heart rate's up and I can't sleep. Right. Sweet. Yeah, you got it. And so then I have to go through the very boring exercise, just like eating right and exercising, of controlling my brain

I'm not going to think about that. I'm going to go over here and think about that. And when it knocks on my shoulder and says, you should what if this a lot or remember that time you saw this. I'm like, no, forget your brain. I'm going over here. That is just like training a muscle. And I don't know that a lot of people spend time training their minds like that. Well, I don't think most people know you're not your thoughts. Well, now we're at the identity thing again. And your body is trying to protect you from something might happen. It's doing its job. Sure.

And I can then decide I'm going to do something else. I think it was one of the godfathers, maybe Adler. Maybe it was Adler who said, I thought if I took away my clients, I think he used the word patients back then, but if I took away their anxiety and depression, I could cure them. And instead I made them empty. And so there's this idea, people say, I can't stop thinking about the affair. I keep picturing my partner in bed with that person. Okay, A, you can decide to stop, but you have to have...

What replaces it? Your wedding day back in there or the day I went on that date after you said we're going to make it go this. Like I've got to replace that. Right. What do you want instead? That's exactly right. And that was an important thing for me coming when – for me, I think we're similar. When the alarm goes, when the text message comes, I think it's real still. I'm fine. Right.

It's when I get home and my wife has never moved. Yeah. Like she's asleep. The phone rings. I'm gone for two hours. I don't do this anymore, but back in the day. I come back and she hadn't even rolled over. Right. I hate her. I just had this whole – Yes. Right? I just cleaned off brains off a bathroom wall of a police officer. And you're sleeping. And she's sleeping, right? But it was a sense that when I would lay it down in bed that I would start going, oh, God. What did I just do? And it's –

I'm going to make a choice to not think about that. Right. I'm going to think about. Yeah. Right? Yes. X, Y, or Z. Do you own your mind or does your mind own you? There you go. Are you a slave to anger or is anger your employee? There you go. Does anger serve as a purpose for you? Right. Yeah. And so you got to own your mind. And yeah, man, I got 1 million of those. And I just turn it to anger and push her and try and wake her up and lash out at others. So last thing I want to talk about is –

This one was probably the hardest one for me, personally. Yeah. So I'll talk about the two times we talked about this yesterday, my two big epic no-no failures when I was with the crisis team.

showed up with the great and powerful Janice, right? Love her. Who was my partner at these two particular call-outs. The first call-out we showed up to was, and we actually had a heads-up on this one, like some discussion, here's what's coming. But a father had died by suicide and he had taken his life, if I remember correctly, in the room of his four or five-year-old son. Mom comes in to wake up son, finds this body,

hanging there in the room and had to get dad off before son woke up, right? It was a whole thing. And then there, I think there was four or five kids. And so we were brought in, it was a team of people, but brought in for mom to tell the kids dad is dead. Right. At the time, we're on the back end of three miscarriages. And then we'd accidentally gotten pregnant with Josephine. Yeah.

You don't accidentally get pregnant. Y'all know what I mean. So Josephine's 18 months old. Surprisingly. Yeah. Ta-da. Josephine's 18 months old. I walk into this room and there's ranging from 13 to a young kid. I just remember the kid had a truck and mom starts explaining it. 13-year-old starts – it was almost in descending order. 13-year-old starts sobbing. The 10 and 9-year-old kind of look confused. The little one starts removing his car real fast. Right. And you can tell he's understood it. He's –

It's coming out in his body, right? Yes. And it's the strangest thing, but I knew I got to get out. I can leave this room now. I'm out. And for a guy that prides himself on, I am unrattled. Loyal and— It was out. Yeah. And Janice chased me to the parking lot. She goes, no, you're not leaving me in here. What are you doing? I was like, I don't think you understand. I have to get out of this room. Right. And then she saw it and goes, I got you.

We talked later and she's like, if you ever leave me, that's the rule. You can't leave. Right. Um, and then the very next call in my head, it may be in a few, but the very next call, we get a, a 10, eight, seven call out to a, um, or a pending 10, eight, seven call out. A young child's about to die. Yeah. Head to a hospital. And there was a van full of kids in, um, Eastern New Mexico. And, um,

just at a daycare center and they'd gone out on an outing and the two toddlers in the very, very backseat, the kids, the teenagers or whoever had emptied the car had left them. They'd been in the car all day, 100 degree heat. They had just, one of them had died and the other one was about to. And we showed up to the hospital and I remember the parents, they were kids, like maybe 19, 20 years old. They were very, very young, mom and dad. And this, you know that ghost. Oh, yeah. We're lost. We're gone. Right.

And the doctor was pretty amazing as he was talking to these parents. And I remember looking over and glancing, and I just got done talking to mom and dad and saying we're going to be here and talking to them through the ABCD. And I happened to catch it at the corner of my eye. They had shifted the bed, and the two-year-old girl's arm moved. Yeah. And it was just laying there. Yep. And it happened again. Right. I'm out. This is too much. My body's like, get out. Because I look just like my daughter. Right. Right.

And I looked at Janiece and I said, we out, right? And she's like, not again. I can't. I can't. At that point, it's on me to recognize I'm over my head. Prior, yeah. Right? I had to make a decision and say, and it was humiliating for me to call you or call Janiece and say, I can't do kids for a season. Right. Right? I have to opt out. Right. And it's embarrassing for me. This is like, whatever. Whatever.

Fast forward, my son had a friend who was going through some hard stuff. Of all the people in the world to call, you would think the guy that has a show dealing with hard stuff that's a national, right? My son would be like, oh, I know a guy. Right. You don't have all the answers? He called a friend's parent. Yeah. And told them everything. All right.

Not knowing that everyone in our friend group would just call like, okay, I'll call the guy that knows that stuff. And there was a moment when my fragile little ego got hurt again. Right. Why not me? What about me? And I had to exhale and say, I went and found my son and said, I can't tell you how proud of you I am because he called an adult. There we go. He called an adult. Right. Right.

How do you know, what do you do when you're over your head? Whether your kid comes to you and says, hey, I have a friend at school who's thinking about hurting himself, or I just found out my friend is 13 and she's having sex with her 17-year-old boyfriend. Right.

How do you know there's an ego to it? I'm over my head. I want to be the person for my kid. Right. All things to all men. Yeah. So how do I recognize when I'm over my head? For me, when I look inward, one, and I see my ego, like you said, or two, I find myself fumbling, struggling.

stop. That's a sign. All right. If I'm struggling in this moment, why? If I'm short on ammo or knowledge or whatever, okay. And hopefully I've done my homework and I have somebody I can refer to. I've got a friend. Those relationships. Yeah. Right. I've got backup. Or like when you were called, it's like, ah, I can't do this one. That is no problem, buddy. I got 10 other people who I can send out to you. You should not feel any shame. This is not an ego thing. We all have our limits. I think you did say your exact words were, God, what a wimp. I'm

I'm just kidding. You should have shame. Yeah, yeah. What an embarrassment. And that begs the question that I think all of us need to ask is, do we have people in our life that we trust? Right. Not...

Not in case something, but when it will happen. When my friend got shot and killed on an operation and we still had to negotiate with that guy. Walk through that real quick. That's an important story because you had a job to do on top of. Yeah. So a crazy guy with a rifle.

We get called out on it. As negotiators are arriving, he ambushes local PD and SWAT. So did he set up the call with the intent to kill people? Nah, he was kind of crazy. He's out on the front yard. He squeezes off some rounds, barricades up, and then as he sees people setting up, he starts pot-shotting. But I guess I'm hesitant to put my mind into somebody who has a psychiatric condition. What's his reasoning? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

They get ambushed. My friend gets killed. A couple of my friends get hit. Blech. So we don't know all that, but I start to learn it while we're actively negotiating with that guy, trying to get him out or trying to keep him from not shooting, keep him contained or whatever. So after the fact, we learn, you know, who got hurt, who got killed. And so it, you know, comes in waves and we got to keep working because the call wasn't over. Right.

And now I have another widow on my radar after just doing that a year and a half prior. So I had a lot going on there. Yeah. Now I lost the point of... Well, just the...

I've got to have a network of people that I can go see. Oh, my goodness. So I'm the guy. I'm the professional that people come to. Everybody comes to you, yeah. And so I got my reactions. I got the people I'm working with that I'm trying to take care of, and then I got a lot of people coming to me as well. And so I had and have to have a chorus of people because part of this is it's so much. I need to say it again and again and again. And I have part of my ego problem is I don't like to repeat myself and not be interesting. Gotcha.

And so to go to the same person over and over again, I don't care for that. So my fix has been, well, let me have multiple people and I can say the same thing and it's new to them. So I have my wife, that part. I have friends who know the business. I have that part. I have crisis counselors I oversee who are also friends. Hey, let's go to lunch. I need to cry and don't tell me about the time you did this too. Right. Yeah, yeah. And it's disorienting to even have to coach your loved ones about how to help you. Yeah.

In the midst of needing help, I was really bad and angry about that at first. I was like, you should know because I know for others you should be able to do this. Right, right, right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So having a course of people knowing my limits in one case, I was able to do the funeral, but I could not do the graveside. I just wasn't in it. And I had to accept the fact that my deceased friend would hopefully understand that. Of course he would. And I had to be at peace with all the judgments of all the people around me. Why isn't Andy there? That's not easy because this is the funeral of a police officer. Yeah.

If they're truly my friends, they'll hear me out and accept. If they're not truly my friends, then I got to let that go. And I have to be humble enough to, I called a friend. I was like, yo, I'm on full. I can't do this. And they were a friend. I said, what are you doing? They're like, I'm working traffic at 4th and Indiana. Come out here and stand with us.

Show me en route. I'm in a funeral suit. I show up, and they put a traffic vest on me, and they're like, come direct traffic with me. I'm like, perfect. I'm with my people. I'm doing something other than this, and I'm out there pretending. But my friends are driving by in the funeral process, and they're like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm with my people. I need to be here. Whether or not you can accept that answer. So, man –

You talk about overcoming the ego part, and I wish I was better at it because I got all my weak spots too. But if I recognize it, hopefully I'm humble enough to go, the alternative is no good. I have to go the way that's uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I remember, and I'll keep my kids protected, but when I showed up to one of the

And again, I've got a lot of – I'm pretty fortunate, obnoxiously, but one of the best like young person, under 18 I'll say. Oh, yeah. Mental health practitioners here who works with kids. Nice. And when I walked in her office, she was like, what are you doing here? And it was a – like I'm out. Right. I've gone as far as I know. Right. I need help. Right.

I am this child's dad, not his therapist. I'm dad. I can't be therapist. Yeah. I'm this woman's husband. I can't be. No. Right? Yeah. Similar to, I've got a buddy who changes oil for a living. Yeah. And when he found out his wife took the car over to Jiffy Lube, it was a, and she's like, well, I just needed it done and I didn't want to like,

Okay, cool. Fine. Fine, right? But that's ego, right? That's just ego. Right. I pride myself. There's the— That's the word, right? I pride myself on being able to do a lot of things for a lot of people. And so, again, identity. If my identity is wrapped up in I'm a Swiss Army knife and I can do it all, I got to reorient myself. Yeah. And it's just owning the truth that you will hurt people doing that. Yes. And I have. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, people I care about deeply. Ah, it's too far. Sorry. And I did it twice. Yeah. I did it thrice. Yeah, yeah. You were going to say? Oh, it's just like, yeah. I've think of that more than three times, but yeah. Well, dude, we've talked about this in the intro of the show, but you were one of my professors. You were the worst professor because... It's true. Actually the best, but I remember the fights we had about...

Like, hey, being an educated person isn't just regurgitating facts. You also have to use – I think you got to where you were taken off a letter grade for, like, apostrophes. And, like, you're an educated person. You've got to learn how to write. Right. And educated means you communicate well and do this well and incorporate this knowledge. And you know the rules. And you know the rules, right? Yeah. And so – but as one of my professors, as one of the guys who trained me, as one of the guys I went to when I'm hurting, a guy that I still occasionally call, like, hey, I got this call coming. I don't know what to tell this person.

Thank you for... Oh, man. All of this is because of the influence you've had on my life. And so I'm like deeply grateful, man. Oh, that's very kind. Yeah. And I know it's when you're taking those calls at 2 a.m., you're like, here we go again. And you're running through the crisis list and nobody's answering. And you're like, I'll just go myself. Like, just know that my family's different. My whole family tree is not different. And now there's...

The joke is 17, but there are millions of listeners whose lives are different because of the influence you had on my life. So thank you for that. Oh, thank you for saying so. I'm so proud that Thorne Supplements, my favorite supplements on the planet, have continued to partner with me and our show listeners for health, longevity, and just feeling good.

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All right. That was my conversation with my friend and mentor and professor, coach, all of it. Dr. Andrew Young, Andrew Young, Andy Young. And we're going to link to the show notes. His website is Dr. Andy Young, D-R-A-N-D-Y-Y-O-U-N-G. You can check out his book, books. And again, we'll link to him in the show notes. Just remember when you show up, if it's hurting people, you don't know what to say, say nothing. Just bring you. Yes, you're that important.

I love you guys. If you see somebody who's a first responder in your community, police officer, fireman, mental health practitioner, social worker, give them a hug, shake their hand, look them in the eye and say thank you. They're doing a lot of heavy lifting behind closed doors after hours and year long. It's like they do amazing, amazing work. We'll see you guys soon.