Ep 71: Judd Apatow w/ Kombucha
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Hey, folks, here we are. We might be drunk. We're back. We got a hot guest. How you doing, Judd? I'm happy to be here. Couldn't be happier. You called today. Yeah. And you texted and you said, are you free? And I was. I'm usually not even in New York. Yeah. And just- I saw you doing something at the 92nd Street Wine. I was like, Judd's a new- and you have the new book, so. That's right. I'll be there tomorrow with Rami Youssef. Hey, we love Rami. You can go. Does this run before that? No. Yeah.

Fuck. April 25th. Oh, man, you missed it. I assume it went well, but it was empty because I didn't plug it here. I heard you killed and didn't get slapped. Exactly. Perfect. That's all that matters. That's all we wanted. You're doing The Tonight Show right after this. I am, yes. Showbiz. Showbiz. I got things to push. I got the bubble on Netflix April 1st. I've got...

The book, Sicker in the Head. I have a George Carlin documentary coming out at the end of May. Can't wait. I have three things to peddle. You're a machine, man. I mean, the Shanley doc was incredible. Thank you. Oh, yeah. This one is crazy. I mean, I was scared to make it because I only met George Carlin once. I interviewed him when I was like 20 years old for Canadian television. And it was the only interview I couldn't find.

Literally, his whole career, the only thing I looked for that did not exist was me as a young idiot talking to him for Canadian TV. I wonder if you go up there, they have it.

I begged it. I called all those people. You know what did exist? Paul Reiser's sister interviewed him for her college radio station in like 1971. And Paul Reiser had the tape. Wow. And she did a really good interview. It was right when he grew the beard and grew the hair. He went from being a little corny to edgier. And the story that they tell about it is –

They do it at their apartment in New York City.

Well, maybe they lived on Long Island. But anyway, near the city, he comes over. She does the interview. And afterwards, he says, I got to go. I'm going to go buy a camera. And their dad says, I'll take you. I know a guy on the Lower East Side. He'll give you a good price on a camera. And they go with him. And George Carlin buys a camera. They're all like in the car together. Wow. And then she sees him a year later. I guess she gets another interview with him somehow. Yeah.

she asked him about the camera and he said uh yeah no i didn't want to get a camera i was actually trying to go uptown to buy cocaine damn wow i met him what was sorry no no i met him once and he couldn't have been more carlini and i loved it he did a book signing at borders i skipped work to go there in wall street and i waited in line and i was

so excited I had like three books when Jesus bring the pork chop brain droppings all that shit I'm a huge fan napalm and silly buddy napalm and silly buddy that was the other one and I could hear people in line going I loved you in Jersey girl I loved you in dog bun I'm like ah what are you Bill and Ted that was great I'm like what are you doing brain droppings yes

Back in town, complaints and grievances, you know, stuff, football, baseball, the whole thing. And I went up to him and I just unloaded on him. And he goes, what do you do? He's like, stop me. And I go, I'm a comedian. He goes, you sound like a comedian. I go, thank you. And he goes, you got a real talent for jacking around. I don't know what that means, but I'll take it. He signed the book. We got a photo. I think he was nice to comedians.

Yes. Because I kept hearing from people, they would meet him once and he would say, give me your number. I'll check in on you. And sometimes like randomly, like eight months later, he would go, how's it going? And he would just be nice to people. Shanling has that story about how he met him. You know, he went down there and he said, it's not great, but there's something funny on every page. Yeah, he gave it. He wanted to write jokes for him. And one of the bits he wrote for him was a commercial for legalized marijuana. Huh.

Back in the early 70s. Time has really changed. It's really crazy. My mom used to hide my weed. Now she just took weed. A doctor gave her weed for her headache. There you go. She used to hide my... I told her, I think this is a little ironic. And she was like, no, I have headaches. And still... I always say weed and cigarettes change places. My mom used to smoke. Now she has weed. They flipped. It's weird now as a parent because it's legal.

And so you have kids. Right. And you're just like, you can't do that. And they're like, no, it's a fully lawful thing to do. It's their beer. Right. At this point. Yeah. And also on some level, and you can't really say it out loud, would you be happier if they were smoking weed than drinking? Of course. So are we steering our kids to the weed? Yeah.

We are. Weed seems more peaceful, but it also seems like drinking with family is easier because drinking is suppressing stuff. Weed, you're like, does my mom not like me? Really? You know, you're having bad thoughts. Yeah. I don't know. My mom just told me she didn't like me, so I didn't need the weed. But yeah. It's clear. You know, there's so much I want to ask you about. Like, obviously, the book is I'm only like.

I've only got a few of the interviews, but they're awesome. But I mean, I think you were talking to Cameron Crowe about James L. Brooks being a mentor. James L. Brooks is, I feel like, one of the most legendary. Yes. Taxi, Simpsons. Taxi, Simpsons. Yeah. I mean, the Mary Tyler Moore show. And then he was producing all the spinoffs like Rhoda and Lou Grant and Broadcast News. And there's the things that people don't remember as well. He wrote a funny movie that starred Burt Reynolds and...

Candice Bergen that was really really funny and I worked for him on the critic We do recommendations every week on this the critic has been a recommendation because they're all on YouTube. Yeah, it's one of the best shows Yeah, cuz it was the guys from The Simpsons. It was Mike Reese and Al Jean Yeah who created it and it was John Levitz is like a Roger Ebert guy right and it turns of parodies in it and it looked like a big New Yorker drawing yes, and that was really my first

job on the show with a story. I used to work half the week on The Critic and half the week at Larry Sanders. - Oh my God. - And then James Brooks would come in. And he was like so brilliant. And we would have to pitch him our ideas for stories.

And you'd wait because he was a busy guy to get him to make an appointment, to sit with the writers, to hear everyone's ideas for stories. And I always remember him stumbling in the room and we're about to pitch our ideas and we all have our little pads with our ideas. And he's like, you know, I was thinking what a good story could be. He pitches us three ideas, gets up, walks out of the room. Like didn't remember why he was there. All his ideas were better than our ideas. And then just left. Do you remember any of them?

I do remember one thing that he said to me on my pitch, which I do think shows you what a genius he is. My pitch was...

that it was, the guy's name was Jay, the critic, that his parents are really rich in the show. And I think it's supposed to be like he's adopted and they're very waspy. - And she talks like Katharine Hepburn. - Yeah. - And the dad is kind of losing it a little bit, like a non sequitur guy. And so they get in a plane crash, is the idea, and now they're on a deserted island, the parents.

And my idea was that Jay finds out that they were like part of the, you know, what do they call that? The Illuminati or something like they run the world. They're so rich. And now he is on the committee to run the world because the parents died. Right. But then you cut to the place where the desert island where they are. And I didn't really have an idea for that. And James Brooks said, what if on the island...

You know, their marriage is really stale and it's been stale for a long time. But on this island, they kind of rebuild their world with like trees and twigs and they remake it on the island. They look kind of sexy, like they're kind of cut up a little bit and they're dirty and they fall in love and it gets hot again. Yeah. That's how great he is. Like that's what he took from my dumb idea. Right, right. He went Blue Lagoon on it. He did, yeah. Yeah.

He just goes to like character going deep. Yeah. Stories about love and connection and all the ways we're neurotic. And I think that's why he's such a great producer because he produced Big. He produced Bottle Rocket. He produced Jerry Maguire. He produced the first Cameron Crowe movie that he directed, Say Anything. Oh, wow. So he's also the best guy to read your stuff and tell you how to make it.

Yeah. That must be terrifying because you know he's that good at it. You know all his pitches are better than what you're trying to do. I'm always intimidated everywhere I go. Oh, there's Dave Attell. There's Chris Rock. Whatever it is. I mean, I can't imagine going to work with these guys. That's insane. I would be freaking out. Did it ever become normal? It was scary. It really was scary. When I was really young, you're not in a position of power. So...

You don't really get to choose what jokes or what stories get done. So as an entry-level writer, all you're doing is vomiting out, what about this? What about this joke? What about this thing? And then they just say yes, no, yes, no. And if you don't mind being rejected 80%, 90% of the time, it's a good job. And then slowly you start getting access to the conversation about what stories should we do. Right. Oof. Terrifying. Yeah. Was James the most intimidating person you worked for coming up?

I mean, he wasn't intimidating necessarily because he did something that I think a lot of good comedians do. It's when you would pitch him something, he never said it was bad. So if I pitched a bad story, he would like sit and think and go, what could you do with this? Mm-hmm.

He never gave you that look like, you idiot. Right. You know, so even the worst idea, he's like, what? And he would sit and he would try to what if it for a while to see if it led to something else. And that was the main lesson I learned from him was, okay, this is like a starting point for someone else's inspirations.

Yeah, we write together and we'll do that too. I never go, that's... You're so good at that, actually. Oh, thanks. Mark and I, since we were open micers, would bounce bits. And Mark, I have some friends who you tell a bit to and they're just like, ugh. But Mark is always like,

What if it was this? I think this is what you're trying to say. He's very encouraging. Well, there's usually a nugget, a kernel. We can go another way. There's always something. Well, something's bubbling up, right? Exactly. And I think that that's how I've tried to look at writing, which is why am I thinking about this? Like something from my unconscious is trying to get out. And I don't know why. And usually whether that's a script or a joke, like why do I want to talk about, you know,

Having babies. Yeah, you know, why is that on my mind? I mean, I think someone said like you write the movie to figure out why you're writing the movie and

And sometimes you don't know until you finish it. What is it really about these relationships? Right. When I was a kid, you know, my dad got remarried. My mom got remarried. I didn't think that much of it. It was always an adjustment. You'd be awkward for a while. It's new people in your life. And I worked with Pete Davidson on King of Staten Island for a few years. And what is it about? It's about getting comfortable with what's going to be your stepdad, Bill Burr. Right.

But while we're doing it, I'm not that conscious of, oh, I have all these issues. The resistance to loving the new person that's trying to figure you out. You're looking at it through Peach's lens with that movie. Interesting. But I didn't think about it maybe that much, even while we were writing it and doing it. Oh, this is weirdly personal for me.

in trying to build those relationships and how it takes a little time. Do you think on some level that's what drew you to work with Pete? I mean, aside that he's interesting, that he's someone that makes sense to work with, but do you think when you're like, are you helping him kind of structure that story? That's part of it is, I mean, in the beginning we were talking about just like silly ideas. So him and Dave Cyrus wrote another idea for me and it was just a silly idea and it wasn't really...

coming to fruition. And then usually we have a moment where I'll just say, what should we be writing about? And then he kept talking about wanting his mom to date. And that kept coming up as a theme, feeling bad that his mom isn't dating. And then it was like, well, how honest do you want to get? How deep do you want to go? And then slowly he's like, yeah, I wouldn't mind writing about it.

Because it's sacred, you know, talking about losing your dad and what his life has been like, what his family's life has been like. And then you start saying, would your family care if you wrote about this? And he's like, oh, no, they'd love it. All right, how honest can we get? Yeah, completely. And most people will say, well, we can say this, but we can't say that. And people is always...

We're all in. And then I called his mom and we talked about it and started writing. He's been so in the public scrutiny since, what, like 18? Yeah. It probably helps being that open a book because he's just like, you can't hurt me. Right. And I mean, I'm sure you can, but you know what I mean? Like comedically, almost nothing's off limits in that way. Well, public scrutiny since...

9-11 because he said they would take all the kids to Yankee games and football games. Yeah. Everyone was trying to make them feel better. And he's talked a lot about this publicly, just how uncomfortable it made him because it wasn't a normal form of getting over a loss. Yeah. Hey, your dad's gone, go watch Jason Giambi right there. Yeah, exactly. Go to the White House and meet the president. Right, right. That's not helping. Yeah, of course. It's...

It's interesting because I think about your work and like you kind of have levels where like you'll do something that's a little more silly, but then you'll go and kind of like even like undeclared to freaks and geeks. There's such different tones. Yes. Yeah. Well, I always thought that undeclared like college is like the gift you get for surviving how shitty high school is. So it seemed like after this brutal high school experience that if you did a show about college, it would be.

That's the place you go to redefine yourself. Right. Everyone thinks I'm an idiot here. I'm going to go there. No one knows who I am. Can I act cool enough to be accepted as a different kind of person? And then slowly they figure it out. I remember there was an episode where Martin Starr played his friend from back home. Yeah.

who was, you know, like a nerdy guy. And that's when he felt like he was going to be outed as not the cool person he was trying to pretend that he was. And that's what I always thought of college. Like, this is the moment that I can like put everything behind me and people will think I'm cool. And I remember like drinking with all the football players during the first week of school and just vomiting immediately and instantly being a loser again. They didn't know I'm a dork.

But then after college, you're punished with marriage. Exactly. Punished high school, fun college, the rest of your life sucks. Well, I'm not looking at it that way. I'm about to have my 25th wedding anniversary. Holy hell. Or it's a dream. There you go. For a quarter century. Yeah. And now your kids are cooking. They're rocking and rolling. They're working. Iris is in the bubble. Iris is in the bubble. And she's really, really funny. She plays a...

tiktok star who's been jammed into the movie just because she has a lot of followers and doesn't want to act and she was on love and was really funny on that and then maude is on euphoria right now yeah i haven't seen it yet everyone pitching it to me it sounds terrible i don't want to watch kids on drugs you do you do it's fun i hear it's amazing i'm terrified it's a great show it's just they push the limits it's wild i gotta watch it it's fun hbo still does make some cool stuff oh hbo is the best yeah

Yeah, it's amazing to just watch her do it. Like learn, you know, she's... You watch? I mean, I've only gone to the set twice, but just...

Her talking about it, the process of everybody figuring out the show. Sam Levinson writes and directs every episode. It's a pretty remarkable feat. And then you see what they did, and you can't believe how good it is. Because for me, I'm working so hard, and at the end you're like, God, I hope I didn't screw this up. So from a distance to observe a very long process, and then he just...

really sticks the landing on the whole thing i gotta i'm so impressed it's heavy duty do you do you feel like you set your kids up for showbiz by putting them in the movies when they were really young i think uh you know i've either helped them or ruined their lives because you don't really know because if i talked about dentistry their whole lives maybe they would love the teeth maybe they'd be an orthodontist maybe it would be an oral surgeon and so if you only talk about

jokes and storytelling and you get a kick out of it and also you have people around like they're around funny people and Those people are interesting and you know, we can say it They're more interesting than a lot of other people you meet you got that right? Yeah, so it's oh then you'd like the idea of being around creative people silly people and

And then they weren't pushed into it. They kind of did it even though they weren't asking to do it. I was just like, why don't you play the kids in this? I don't want to meet other people's kids. And you get to spend time with your family, right? Yeah, we're going to hang out for three months. And then like two years later, we would do it again. It wasn't like all the time. Sure. But it was enough that each time they got better at it and got more comfortable. And now that they're adults, they just...

Know how to do it right? It's almost like learn a language or something like you like it's like learning Spanish when you're three and yeah know it exactly or just not being terrified when you're sitting in a chair and you have to do a scene and there's like 80 people watching because you've done it for such a long time that you've just gotten used to that space right there's so much of acting I think is about being terrified and

Like, if you can get rid of the fear and relax, most people could do it if you're not self-conscious. I can't do it. I've tried. I still can't act. Yeah, I can't. I can't let go. You don't act in anything. I mean, I'll do like a little sketch here and there, like a one scene thing in a movie. But...

I was in the disaster artist as a mean producer. Right. And they were like, yeah, we want you to play this jerk producer. And I'm like, oh, that would be fun. And they have me sit with a really young, beautiful woman. And it's all kind of like I'm the creepy...

who's really vicious to James Franco's character and I'm like yelling at him like no one makes it even if you're great it's a one in a million if you're a genius it's a one in a million that you get the break and make it you play the Tim Dillon character yeah exactly and then I see the movie I look at the credits and it says Judd Apatow as himself oh

That's a nice fun zing. Now, what about the Synergy raw kombucha? Now, I've never had it before. Is it strong? I don't know if you're supposed to shake it up. Don't shake. It's fizzy. Should we get you another one? It's a little bubble. Well, it's live something. It's probiotics. But does it taste good or does it taste bad? Well, basically, we got drunk with Burt Kreischer for three hours yesterday. We are hurting. There you go. Yeah.

Yeah, Bert was literally every round he'd be like, catch up. And we're like, all right. So that turned into a three. It's usually, as I said, around a one hour episode with Bert. It turned into three. Yeah. And you went all the way with him. Oh, yeah. He's an animal. Then I'm on The Tonight Show today. So you got to go. It's perfect. This is tea time. Yeah. This is great. How I think of this is when we did The Ben Stiller Show many, many moons ago.

Andy dick at the time was very sober and very healthy and he drank this all the time really he was always drinking this but at the time it didn't look like this like this looks like Gatorade or something back then it looked like there was like octopus in it and stuff like it was something I don't know how they presented it but they were living stringy things it was flip water and so I still think of it as disgusting like that but I'm gonna try it it's pretty good they cleaned it up a little bit they got their act together they strained it do you get nervous to do a late night spot appearance

I get a little bit nervous. This may be the least prepared I've ever been. And sometimes I think, well, is that good to just... Because he's nice and he's funny. And maybe I just need to be interesting and something will happen. And then other times I prepare every word like it's bits. I've seen you run it like a late night set for panel sometimes, right? Yeah. I've done the stories and I didn't do that this time. But this is like a very loose...

version of it so yeah this is the can I be interesting or you know sometimes I think you know Judd you do stand-up comedy but you're also a director and a director does not have to be funny he can be interesting so maybe I'm interesting I do one of those appearances well if you go in interesting anything you say that's slightly humorous is now a win exactly you know it's like when a rock star yeah does patter between songs he's murdering right you know because you just don't expect it

Yeah, and you're like, I wouldn't even put that in my act anywhere. Exactly. When he kills. You see a TED Talk with like a little quick joke in there and the guy gets a huge laugh. Yeah. Or a funeral is a big one too. You did a stand-up set though on Fallon once. I did. I did. It was – they asked me to do a stand-up set. And this is how you know they thought I was just a curiosity and it wasn't like an earned stand-up set. No one on the show asked to see it beforehand. Right.

But is that flattering or is that... No, I think that's because you're a star. I don't think that's because you're not, that you didn't earn it. You killed the set. I still remember the Cosby joke. Yes. That's a great joke. Well, the thing was, I ran it at the cellar a bunch, the set. Yeah.

And I wasn't gonna do the Cosby bit. And the Cosby bit was just all about Cosby hiding the newspaper so Camille wouldn't hear that he's in trouble. And then it was like doing a Cosby routine about hiding the paper. And every day I would go to the driveway and I'd get up early and hide the paper. And I wasn't gonna do it because I thought, oh, this is a little too much.

to do and then I forgot who it was but I got off stage and somebody could have been you just went well you gotta do the Cosby thing it might have been me it might have been literally it could have been you and I was like really yeah I think that's like the best thing and then I was like

All right. But then that became like half the set. Right, right. Sam also told Rock to do the Jada joke. We don't know. Every joke's an experiment. That's true. You don't know what jokes are going to work. That's what makes it so exciting. Of course. Failure can happen at any moment. I think for the now on the stage, he'll have to be four feet tall. Because if he have to jump up to get on the stage, I think it'll... It looks foolish. Yes, exactly. You don't want to squirm to get the slap off. Right. It doesn't look good. But the fact he could just sashay up there. Was there any step?

Nothing. There was no step. That was the issue. Front row. Even if he's in the fifth row, he's got to shimmy down. That changes things too. Yeah. Set design is always the problem. Yes, exactly. Build that wall around the stage. I want to ask about, because Freaks and Geeks, do you get asked about that a lot? I do. And the great thing about it that's nice is when it got canceled-

You really think no one may ever see it again. You don't know that it's going to come out back then like VHS or DVD. Like that's not guaranteed that that happens. Right. And so your nightmare is it's going to go down some digital black hole and

and never be able to be seen again because someone has to like pay to get it out there. So the fact that it's on Hulu now, and I really think more people watch it every year than ever watched it when it was on. And so it's almost like a new project, which I get a kick out of. And it was shot to look like something made in 1980. So something about the style of it doesn't age because it's meant to be a little old looking. And also there's all this music in it.

Back then, nobody put classic rock in TV shows. The only show that did it a teeny bit was The Wonder Years. But if you watch TV, if you're watching like Lou Grant or something or NYPD Blue, they didn't put like The Grateful Dead in it. That's true. There was no music in shows. Yeah. Dawson's Creek had a little pop music here and there. And we said, what if we...

like a Scorsese movie. - Right, did that cost a lot of money? - Well back then it really didn't cost that much. We budgeted for it, but say it cost like 100 grand an episode to fill it with songs by Ted Nugent and Styx and Billy Joel and people like that. And everybody said yes. And we put Van Halen in the show. If you tried to do that right now, it would just cost you millions of dollars per episode. Everyone has asked for an enormous amount of money

To do that. And now it's in all the shows. But back then, you know, we would call the Grateful Dead and they'd be like, oh, no one's ever asked for a song before. Wow. For anything. Holy moly. I mean, Billy Joel wasn't in any movies or TV shows. Styx was never in anything. So for us, it was like, oh, it's all open. Yeah. It's open season. It's a little generic now, but back then it was so fun. Interesting. I never thought about the music.

That scene where Martin Starr is eating the... Yeah, yeah. What's he eating? Like a meatloaf or an eclair or something? And his mouth is... He's got milk. He's eating grilled cheese and Entenmann's cake. Yes! Which is what I did every day as a kid. I would sit and watch Dinah Shore and eat grilled cheese and Entenmann's cake and watch the comics. That hit home. That was my afternoon routine. And it was Shanley in that episode, right? And I put Shanley in there as a respect to Shanley. And that...

And I put the Who, the song, I'm One, under it because it's all about feeling like an outcast. Man, you were just jerking it. This was an Apatow moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was another sequence in that show where Bill gets up and he sees his mom's

new boyfriend which is his gym teacher and then he takes out a mug that says like world's best dad and we had this great bad finger song um

And we couldn't get it because they were in whatever legal problems with all their stuff. And it was the saddest thing that we couldn't get this song. It was like that sequence where it was so great with that song. Right. And then we couldn't get that song. And all the guys in that band were always broke. And their lives were falling apart because something got fucked up in all their contracts. And they couldn't sell their music. Yeah. Do you feel like it's bittersweet now? Because when I started comedy, there wasn't much...

Obviously there were no podcasts back then, like in 2006. I had the CDs on comedy. Remember Woody Allen had one, Seinfeld had one, a couple other guys. Now there's like eight zillion comedic avenues and internet shows and everything. Is it good or bad that there's this much access to comedy? Or was comedy better when it was this kind of niche underground thing?

I don't know because when I was a kid, I mean like the book we have here, Sicker in the Head, where I interview all the comics. When I did it as a kid, I did it because there were no interviews. So other than like those weird CDs, there was almost nothing. So as a young person who wanted to know like how do you do it, there was nowhere to –

So you were like actually interviewing Seinfeld because you're like, I want to know how to do this. Exactly. I've heard those old ones. And literally it's like 1984. Yes. And so it's before Seinfeld, but people still thought he was the greatest comic. Wow. And in the book it says something about how he was kind of icy to you, but then he saw you cared and that kind of softened him. That's the key. Well, I showed up at the door and I think he didn't realize it was a child.

And so you always have to decide, am I actually even going to do this right now? And then I'm so earnest as a kid, and I love him so much that at some point he got very cocky.

And I said, how do you write a joke? And then he started walking me through a premise he was working on. And the premise he was working on was how do you catch a bullet between your teeth? And he saw that on That's Incredible. And he's like, well, how do you learn how to do that? I mean, do you start with a grape? He goes, and this is the thing that made me laugh. And I learned a lot from him saying this. He said, then I started thinking, I don't remember his name.

And the guy's got to think, "What the hell do I need to do to get you to remember my name?" And he just started showing me how his mind works. And I did that with 50 different people and you don't even realize what you're picking up. But the main thing I picked up from it was they worked their asses off and it took like seven to 10 years to figure it out. - Exactly. - And so as a 16 year old, to program in your brain, I have a goal.

And if I start now at like 17, I won't be good till I'm 25. Yep. And I'm okay with that. That was life changing. Right. Because I think now everyone thinks they're supposed to be amazing in the first three months. Well, they could TikTok it and be, you know, viral. Yeah, there are people who are selling tickets on the road through TikTok, you know, and they don't have an act. Right. Which sounds horrible to me.

I mean, it's great that you're making a living, but it's also like the people that are paying money to see you are going to hate the show. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And now, yeah, everything, everyone feels like they should be a star instantly. Yes. And I really thought, oh, seven years. And I also thought, okay. Which isn't crazy, by the way. That's like, think about like any job, to be a doctor, to be a lawyer. It's like college and then law school, right? True. I mean, that seven years sounds reasonable. And in my head, what I thought was, okay, I'm 17. Yeah.

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Did you... So Seinfeld, when did you mention... When you were a successful writer, was there a point where you were like, do you remember? Did you ever bring it up to him? I think I probably waited almost like deep into my 30s to mention. I think at some point...

When I started having some success with like the 40 Old Virgin, I mentioned it and I would let people print a picture of me at 16 with Seinfeld. And then he's like, oh my God. And I don't remember if he really remembered it. Right. You know, when it happened. The funny thing is I interviewed him again the next year and he said, why would I do it again? And I said to him as a kid, I'm like, well, you did the Tonight Show twice.

And he did it. He did like another hour with me. And, you know, that kindness, like when you go, oh, this is...

This is how you're supposed to behave towards people. Because there were people who weren't nice. Yes. And then there'd be people who would be so nice. They would take out their phone book and go, hey, do you want to interview Rodney Dangerfield? Do you want to interview so-and-so? Did you interview Rodney? I never got Rodney, but like people would just give me his phone number. What? And Alan Zweibel from Saturday Night Live would give me people's phone numbers. And I think that was maybe the most important part of the whole process was,

Oh, this is what kindness says. Right. This is what mentorship is. I've noticed the funny guys tend to be kind. A lot of the dicks are usually hacks. Yeah, the better comics are nicer for the most part. Exactly. They're more self-aware. Yeah, so you... Seinfeld, who were the other big ones you talked to when you were young that had a big impression? Well, there were people like Harold Ramis. Ooh!

That's a good one. He was in prep for vacation. Wow. And I remember he started talking about writing jokes for Rodney Dangerfield and getting 50 bucks a joke. And I never knew that like

Someone would write the jokes for people. Yeah, so that was a big thing. So at 16 I'm like, oh which is not really a thing anymore I mean, I think that was like an old-school showbiz. Yeah, I mean if you have a TV show obviously or in the Oscars or something Yeah, and there's and there are people that yeah, it's there some people do a little bit of that if they're like really cranking out stuff But it definitely programmed in my brain Oh, I can do stand-up and sell jokes to pay my rent. So when I first started out I wrote jokes for

George Wallace and Taylor Negron and I did a session for Jeff Dunham's old man puppet. Oh,

With my friend Joel Madison. Wow. And I thought that's a cool thing to do. No one else was doing it. There weren't any other comics who were willing to spend their comedy bandwidth on helping somebody else. They held the jokes too dear. Yeah, they didn't want to do it. But I did it. And you know who I did it with? Norm. No way. Me and Norm and I believe John Rigi got hired to write jokes for Roseanne. Wow. I remember me and Norm doing...

uh i forgot if reed you was there just driving to rosanne's house sitting at her breakfast table and she takes out a big stack of legal pads with all of her ideas yeah and and then we would like try to help her turn him into jokes very quickly he got hired on rosanne and then he got snl like a few months later like his thing blew up really fast could you tell when hanging out because he's like one of my heroes could you tell hanging out like oh this guy's amazing this

This guy's brilliant. Or was he just too weird? I loved Norm the second I saw him. I was living with Sandler. We were both struggling. Him less than me because he would be on remote control on MTV. He'd VJ every once in a while. So that was like a thing. There'd be MTV tours that Adam would go on. But Adam had a lot of energy to succeed. And I came at it really as a fan. So I saw Norm on something. And I had the tape of it. And I'm like, Sandler, you've got to see this film.

fucking Norm Macdonald. Wow. This is like the funniest guy ever. And I would do this to Adam all the time when I liked somebody. And he would always say like, I don't give a shit if he's funny. I'm trying to be funny. Right, right. I'm trying to make it. I don't care if he makes it. Yeah. And then the funny part is he became Norm's biggest supporter. And then suddenly Norm was in all the movies.

and Billy Madison and suddenly like Norm's around all the time and I'm like I told you it's Norm. Norm's the one. Yeah. Comics also I think we have like the arrogance that we kind of want to discover the comic ourselves. Sure. When someone pushes a comic on you it's almost like being like being pushed to go on a date with someone you're like fuck off I'll meet someone you know. Good point. Well I just had also had that nerdy fan thing and Sandler's thing back then he loved Rodney.

And he worked at Dangerfields. Whoa. RIP. That club's no longer here. I know. And I remember doing a couple of spots there back in the day. And that was his guy. He loved Rodney. And then Rodney was in Little Nicky. It's great. Right, right. And then once we all flew to Vegas to see Rodney perform when Rodney was like 80-something. Wow. And Sandler like...

Charters a jet. And we all fly out there. And it's like this really funny group. It's like me, Sandler, Schneider, Covert, Carl Weathers. Carl Weathers. And Quentin Tarantino. That was the group. That's like a Mad Lib. And we're all just fly to Vegas to see Rodney. That's the only reason we're going, just to pay respects to Rodney. Oh, and he's in Natural Born Killers. I'm thinking of Tarantino. Oh, yeah. And then he was great. In his 80s, he was great. And then someone started heckling him.

and he just tore the guy apart and he woke up too to another level and he loved destroying the guy and then we hung out after with him and he was just such a character man

Man. Oh, sorry. There's a great clip of Rodney. It's in the box set, which, I mean, I don't know where you get a box set anymore. It must be on YouTube somewhere. But he's in his 80s doing stand-up in Vegas, and it's not a good crowd. And it gets to a point where he's not doing great, and it's kind of sad. And then it's another thing where he wakes up, and he just rattles joke, joke, joke, joke. And at the end, he gets a big applause break, and he just goes, I know a lot of fucking jokes. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

It's like the funniest thing. You're like, yeah, I still got it. I love it. Well, I love like these old records. Like you have this one here. I don't get no respect. But Rodney's thing was, and I don't know if it was cocaine induced or what. He used to talk slow. Like he used to be a storyteller and he was funny. And he would talk like this. And he would say, have you ever gone to the mechanic?

And he had a whole different affect to him. And it was really funny and dark and weird. And then suddenly it got super fast and crazy. And I remember seeing him when I was like 13 or 14 at Westbury Music Fair. And it really was the case that certain jokes would kill so hard that you would miss the next two.

Like it was just pandemonium. And maybe he was on coke and just moving way too fast. But he murdered like I'd never seen anybody murder. Yeah, his Tonight Show stuff, it's always like 8 million, 9 million views on YouTube. Still holds up. Still hilarious. And long. Like he used to do like 8-minute sets or 10-minute sets. He would sit down with Johnny, do another 10 minutes.

I know. On the couch. So many jokes. I try to avoid, if I do a late night set, I try to do it short. I'm like, can I do 345? Right. How can I get it and not burn everything? Yeah. But back then, that was the spot to burn it. You're right. That was like a special back then, I guess. Exactly. Everybody in America was watching that thing. But Norm would always say he would rehearse and practice like crazy for those panel sessions. You'd think he's like a, he almost looks high. He's off the cuff. He's riffing. He's talking about moths for eight minutes. That was all prepared. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's really fun to go down the Norm wormhole. Because there's a lot of stuff. Yes. If you want to just look for like Norm on a morning radio show 16 years ago, talking for an hour and 10 minutes and being hilarious and crazy. There's so much of it. There's one, maybe in the last year of his life where he...

I think it's Hawaii and it gets really like intense and he's just talking about life and and He gets he's talking like religion and masturbation and they can't tell if he's goofing on them Yeah or not and I'm not even quite sure because I think sometimes people They think you're joking and then your thing is I'm gonna tell them the complete truth Yes about everything and you're gonna think I'm goofing but I am not

I am not goofing. Yes, exactly. Andy Kaufman was on this show called like the Tom Cottle show. He's one of the first therapists on TV who would like do therapy with a real person or a celebrity on TV. And there's a thing of it on YouTube. It's like 20 minutes. And you could tell Andy Kaufman has decided he's going to drop all of his character and tell the truth to this guy on TV. And that's the joke. Ah.

And it's like, you can't even believe you're watching. Also, Norm's cadence is so funny. It's hard to picture. It's almost like the curse of Rodney. Picture Rodney trying to be serious. It's still kind of funny. Totally. He plays the darkest character ever in Natural Born Killers, and it's like a laugh track. Right? There's a Norm on the radio somewhere, and he's making fun of teachers. And a teacher calls in, and she's like, you don't know how hard it is. And he's like, what? You're just the tallest person in the room, man.

All these things. And he's like, you just have to be smarter than the fifth grader. You're teaching or whatever. And he's just killing this one with just facts. And it's all gold. And then he has a big bit about it later in his act. But I wonder if it came off that phone call. But he's just dropping gems. And they're all blown away. And he was close to shooting a special. Yeah.

At the end of his life. So I always wondered. Did you know he was sick or not? No, I didn't. Nobody knew. Nine years. Yeah. Were you still close with him? I mean, I don't know. I don't think I was ever like close to Norm. I just knew him a little bit for a really long time. I had done a Largo show with him a few years before he died. And.

He came in and he was so sharp. And he was so funny backstage and so nice. And then someone gives him a hit on a joint. And then he's just like... And it was kind of sad because you could just tell...

He could have just crushed it if he stayed sober. Right. And there's like one hit, he just lost like half of it. Yeah. And I was mad at my friend, like, why are you giving a joint to Norm? And then he went on stage and he has like a decent set. I remember he was doing that stuff about OJ. Yeah.

Oh, but the irony. Remember that bit? Yeah, yeah. He got caught for the shirts. Yeah. He went to jail for stealing shirts or whatever, not the murder. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. And at the end of his set, he looks at the crowd.

And he's like kind of something like very emotional. And he says, you know, I'm over here. Like it's so nice. You people are so nice to me. And I walk over there and it points to the wings and it's over. And then it ends. And then I'm just over there alone. But if I just stay out here, you know, it like really feels good to be here with you. But I have to go. And then he literally starts crying.

On stage. And he just takes this long pause. He goes, I don't know what to say. And then he just goes, I love you. And then he walked off. Wow. Yikes. Now looking back, knowing that he was sick, you wonder what he was thinking about and what all those moments were about and all the routines. Because-

There's interviews where he talks about really looking up to this actor. What's his name? Richard Farnsworth, the guy who was in that movie where the guy rides a lawnmower across the state. It was called like Straight Story. Yeah. What else is he in the tunnel? Isn't he in Misery too? Yeah. I mean, he was, I think he was a stuntman who became an actor. Pull him up. Maybe David Lynch directed that movie. Yeah.

or Gus Van Zandt, I think David Lynch. But he was talking about how much he admired him because he never told anyone he was sick.

And he talked about it for about 10 minutes, like how that's the best thing you could do is not bother your family. Exactly. And so he talked about it, but as if it was somebody else. Yeah, he had that whole, I heard him on Chris Hardwick's podcast years ago, and he's like, all these comics now, they have these one-man shows about having an illness. And he's like, that's not brave. Everybody calls him brave. He's like, no, it's brave to hold it in and not bother everybody with it. Oh, you got cancer? Oh, everybody gets cancer.

You know, it's not a big deal. I mean, it's a big deal, but you're not special. It reminds me of Siskel and Ebert because...

Siskel didn't tell anybody. Right. He told nobody that he was sick. And Roger Ebert, I guess, was really upset that he never shared it with him. And then by the time he found out, he was very close to dying. And then when Roger Ebert got sick, he shared the whole experience with the world because he thought that that's what you do. But, you know, that's a private decision. Yeah, exactly. It's that person's choice. I don't judge either way, but yeah. Yeah.

My body, my choice. What was the joke that Norm had about beating cancer? Oh, yeah. Isn't there something about how the cancer dies too, so it's a draw or something? Right, right. You're battling with cancer. I was like, I think he lost.

It's not really a battle. It's a losing fight. I can't remember, but it was great. Then his dad died, and he's like, your dad's in a better place. He's on the floor. That was a great bit. He's like, we're scared of Korea? I'm scared of my heart. My heart could kill me from inside. Brilliant stuff. It's so simple. World War II, they attacked the world. It's incredible. Gold. Who do you think you are, Mars? That was a great tag.

You toured with Jim Carrey in the 80s, right? I did. I did. Yeah. He was an impressionist and he just didn't want to do impressions anymore. He just decided that he didn't want to become Rich Little. And he was playing Vegas. He would open up for Rodney. Rodney was one of his big supporters when he was like 19. Wow. And then he stopped for a while. He did a couple of movies. None of them did well.

But just being in movies back then was probably big, right? It was big. But if you got your shot, like he was in this movie Once Bitten. It was like a vampire movie. I remember that. I used to come on Comedy Central like twice a week. Was it like Lauren Hutton and him or something? And then it bombed. He had a TV show about like a cartoonist, The Duck Factory, and that bombed. So all his big breaks weren't working. And then he didn't know what to do. And I guess a manager said, stop doing stand-up and just focus on your acting. Ooh. Wow.

And then I think it was like Peggy Sue got married and he was trying to build that career. And then out of the blue, he just fired the managers and went, I shouldn't be doing standup. That's totally wrong. And he decided to go back, do no impressions. And he went on stage every night and did his act completely improvised. Like every night he would just do a completely different set with no forethought. Crowd work or just riffing?

I mean, riffing, yeah. Not crowd work, not where you're from, just going in your own head into your own madness. It wasn't pretty, I heard. It was on the Comedy Store documentary he talked about. He said at one point he got in the piano, got out of the piano, just trying anything he could do to get a laugh. He would lay against the back wall, the brick wall, and he would just see how much he could get in the crack and

I remember he had a bit that he would take off his shoe when he was bombing, and he would pretend to call his wife. And he would just go like, hi, honey. No, it's going great. They love me. Oh, that's great. Oh, yeah. We're not going to have to worry about making ends meet anymore. And then he would start killing. For like six, seven minutes, he would kill. And then it would fall off again. Yeah. But after a couple of months...

He started building something and almost everything you see in movies like Ace Ventura and the mask He came up with on stage at that time all the catchphrases Let me show you something and already then and yeah, all those things were his fire marshal bill and all things he did and

That's where he really broke, right? In Living Color? In Living Color, yeah. And then Ace Ventura. Yeah. Yeah, I saw that in the theater with my mom. She's like, I don't get it. I was like, this is the funniest thing I've ever seen. Same here. I remember my grandparents took me to Dumb and Dumber, and they were just like old Jews. They were so mad. My grandma was like, that was the worst. They wanted to see Apollo 13 or something like that. I talked to them at Dumb and Dumber. Yeah, good. They're like, I like Bob Hope.

Well, I remember my grandparents would see Buddy Hackett and they'd be like, he's so dirty. And in my head, I'm like, oh, you're dirty. That's what you are. But you can be dirty. I mean, it doesn't matter. Filthy. Well, what about in the book, Letterman's talking about how he hates impressions. I feel like that was probably the vibe that people like Rodney told him he was better than that, right?

Well, I think that Jim thought that... I would assume that he thought that people thought he was corny in some way. And the thing that I think he was wrong about was he wasn't doing normal impressions. Right. So Jim thought, oh, I'm turning into Fred Travolina or somebody. But what he was doing was like really...

and demented because he would just, for a lot of it, just do people's faces. Like he would just do Clint Eastwood and like he could change his face and then he would do James Dean and I remember he used to do Bruce Dern. Wow. Which was another like craze. He could just become Bruce Dern's face. But I think in the beginning maybe he was like also like singing a song as Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah.

He had a whole un-Golden Pond, like Henry Fonda bit. Yeah. But then it turned into like post-nuclear Elvis Presley impressions. That's a great one. Jimmy Stewart in the apocalypse. Yeah. Stuff like that. And so I would go out with him. And in the beginning, I remember we went to the Atlanta Punchline. Still there. Different location, but still there. Yeah, we did a week in Sandy Springs.

And he didn't get booked back. Oh, wow. The response was, no, you can't come back. Yeah. And he was still great. Like anyone should go. Wait a second. That was amazing. Even if it was a little hit and miss at the time. And then it just started murdering and he did a special and he had the killer sad. Yeah. You got to get over that hump.

You got to find it. It's so weird to picture just Jim Carrey bombing. I mean, it's, you know, cause he doesn't do standup anymore, but then it's, I feel like a lot of people don't even know he did stand up. It was also like not normal jokes. It was right.

It was surrealistic in some way. And people had never really seen it. And he wasn't famous. So some nights people would, he would just get the room. And then other nights it would be always hit and miss. He never like when he had the act would bomb. But just there were certain nights where it was pandemonium. And then suddenly his Ventura hit.

And then he was Jim. And then he didn't want to do it anymore. And it's funny because three weeks ago I did a Largo and I heard that Jim had been on stage at the Bob Saget Memorial and people said he was really funny and he hadn't really been on stage at the store in like 20 years. And so I said, you know, I got a Largo coming up. You want to just come on stage and just chat? Like you don't have to do a set. We'll just like, I'll just ask you questions. And he did. He came and then I just asked him questions. I knew the answers to it. Like,

You're just like, please don't cry at the end of your set here. Please don't cry. I want this to go well. And then I asked him about Kennison and he had an amazing Kennison story and an amazing Dangerfield story. And then, you know, the funniest person in the world. Like right away you go, there it is. If he ever wanted to do it, you know, he could do it very quickly. I hope he does. I think there is a chance.

At some point, he might consider it. I think so, too. Because it's so fun. Yeah, and you get bored, and movies don't really scratch that itch. But I will say Eddie Murphy always hints at coming back.

And I think it's a bad idea. I think he's too much of a... I mean, he can do whatever he wants, but he's a legend. We have him up here in our minds. And to only get good, you have to bomb. So seeing Eddie Murphy bomb, I think, is too much for people. Well, it might be a news story because he's that famous. So if he has a bad set, it could be a news... And that's the tough thing. When you're that famous, that's why it's hard when you're already famous to be a killer stand-up. It's just hard. You've got to work your way up. I mean, I can be credit for doing so many seller sets because it's like there's no way around it. A lot of people...

just wouldn't put in the work. I mean, I think that you just have to go, I don't care if you write about my bad sets. I mean, the perfect example, like for Eddie Murphy is Mulaney, right? So Mulaney decides to come back and do standup after everything he's been through. Yep. And he goes and he does like the, the wine, what's the name? City wine. City wine. Yeah.

And people write articles about it. And they're quoting the set. Which is so messed up, I think. I don't think it's cool to quote a comedian's material if it's a work in progress. Well, day one back. Yeah. But...

And Mulaney's tough. He didn't care. He just said, I'm just going to keep going. And so they did write those articles like they would write the Eddie Murphy articles. And then... But the Eddie Murphy... Eddie Murphy hasn't done stand-up in like 35 years, has he? I mean, that's the difference. Mulaney's been... He's pretty funny, though. I don't know how bad the sets would be. I think that Eddie Murphy has so much charisma, he probably could...

You know, he'd have some bumpy rides, but not that bumpy. That's true. But ultimately, people get bored of those articles and you go, yeah, okay, you've written a lot of what I'm saying. People get bored of it. And then at some point after, whatever, six months, Eddie Murphy has the monster set. But you have to want to do it because it's a crazy amount of work and you got to get in the car and you got to like go somewhere. It's so funny to picture him at a, like maybe he'll just do like a road club to work and you're like, Eddie Murphy at the punchline in Atlanta? And he's going to put glasses on and read his notes. Yeah, it's going to be weird. Well, you have to love it, right? Like,

Yeah. I remember I saw Seinfeld. We have to really want $80 million. Either one. He probably has 80. Yeah. Yeah. But I saw the Seinfeld at Gotham and it was like...

you know, when the pandemic was slowing down and he was like doing his first sets in a long time. And you can see he's so excited to get up there. And I think you either have that or you don't. You either love it and you cannot stop that person. Like Kevin Nealon is so riotously funny. He's funny. And he loves it. I did a show with him recently. He killed harder than I've ever seen him kill. But some people just, they just start enjoying it.

which is fine. I mean, if you don't have that fire and you focus, I mean, he has like 10 kids. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why it may not be worth his time. Sure. But you got to do it one set at a time. It's like getting buff. You know, you go, I want to be buff. You got to do the reps. You got to go to the gym. And I think a lot of people don't want to go to the gym. Yeah. They want to be buff.

When you were working on it, were you doing clubs on the road or were you doing theaters or were you just working on it in the city or in LA? When I was working on the set for my special, I went to the DC Improv and I went to comedy on States. Oh, wow. The good ones. Yeah, I tried to go to places with good crowds. But most of it at the Cellar, a lot of Largo shows. Yep. And...

And I tried to have some momentum into shooting it, like on the road straight into the shoot. And I was happy with the set. Also, in my head, I literally thought, I'd love to do a special before I'm completely bald. Yeah.

And I'd like to, like, while I look okay, I'd like to kind of get it all down at this stage of life. But also my kids were a certain age and I feel like they both are out of the house now. And it captured a period of what life was and parenting and, you know, what was happening. So I'm glad that I got it done. Yeah, that's what's called, John Apatow, thinning. Yeah.

And you also produced two, how many specials you produced? I know you did Gary and Chris Gethard. And Ricky. And Ricky. Okay, I was going to say, is there a theme of like depression or like darkness that you look for? But Ricky is not, he's not like that really. He's got anxiety stuff. Anxiety, but Gary, it was a dark moment. Well, Gary specifically was about. Yeah, the Great Depression. Yeah, and that was an amazing set. Killer. Put him on the map, I think. Well.

I mean, we've all known that he's the greatest forever. But that was a very special set. And it was so funny and so vulnerable and open. And Chris Gethard's show, Career Suicide, was an amazing...

one-man show about all of his struggles and suicide attempts and it was a little bit more of a theater piece and it's a really great HBO special. He's a great storyteller. Yeah. My friend Michael Bonfiglio who I co-directed the George Carlin documentary with he directed both of those specials and I'm glad they're out there because you know both of them said

You know, when they were young, there's nothing about depression out there. There's nothing about mental health stuff to make you feel like you're not alone in things that are really hard. And so just for that to exist, people watch it and they go, oh, there can be light at the end of the tunnel. There's a way through this. And just to know that you're not the only person suffering with it is a big deal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Comedy has come so far. Like.

There's these Indian comedies, just new in India. And there's all these Indian guys. Veer Das. That's exactly what I was thinking of. He's in The Bubble, the movie I just told you about. Oh, there you go. He's a great guy. Yeah, I just saw him at the cellar the other night. But he'll rent out a theater and be like, I'm working on my new hour. And I don't think there's a lot of clubs there. And comedy's so new. They're almost like in the 80s in India. Yeah.

I think he said he was doing like big shows like in the woods like during the pandemic he would just like set up a thing outside oh yeah I did those parking lot shows that hit the high beams if you really killed you got the wipers did you enjoy those or no I just had to get out of the house had to get up I never want to do I never want to do a roof ever again

It made me so depressed. Yeah. I did one like corporate thing on Zoom. Yeah. It was like someone's rich person's birthday. And they had like a lot of big comics. And the whole family's just like sitting on their couch. And we're like doing their act for them. And they were actually nice and like laughing. Like it made it not like a terrible thing.

And I took it. I just gave the money to charity because I just wanted to see what it was. And it was a little too lucrative for that kind of thing. But big people, it was like five really... I don't even know what to say who they were. Eddie Murphy. And I was like, is this what it's become? And then other people would do Zoom shows where...

there's a hundred people on the zoom and at first all their mics are kind of on so if someone was just like talking to their friend like that you would hear that also and then they had to figure out how to deal with that kind of shit yeah i know there's always the old lady whose face is up against the screen and she's trying to figure it out and she's like how do i do this and she's like talking over your act yeah brutal that was a that was a dark time it was early and for people to not make money

Yeah. I mean, that's a long run for people to, you know, for people who, you know, if you don't have a lot of money in the bank and you're going to have almost two years where like 80% of it goes away, I don't know how a lot of people survived. I mean, a lot of people didn't and a lot of restaurants closed and a lot of movie theaters. Yeah. A lot of stuff that...

You know, we need entertainment and restaurants for an economy. It's terrible, you know? I was hoping more would quit. I feel like we have more than before. I know. What the hell? I get messages from comics sometimes like, I just started comedy two years ago. I'm like, you started two years ago? You started in March of... Peak. You started the worst time in history? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean...

You've had such an interesting career, man, because you've just done so many different types of things. I mean, I just think of like the TV shows and the types of movies you've made. I mean, working with someone like The Critic and then making funny people. Like you can't have two different types of comedy. Yeah, right. I mean, I just think...

Yeah, you always want to go like, what else could you do? Yeah. And not get stuck in the thing. Even this new movie, The Bubble, like it's really like silly. It's like a Mel Brooks movie or I don't know. I mean, it's not really that style. I was thinking like Christopher Guest and then it kind of veered into a little of a Tropic Thunder type of thing. But it's...

I don't mean this in a bad way, but it's like the dumbest movie I've made. Like it's goofy. It's like. We need goofy right now. I showed it to Stiller. He goes, it's bonkers. With a Z. Usually I'm trying to make things very emotionally grounded and then going, how funny can you be when the characters are very real?

And this, I just threw that out the window for the first time. And so that's scary to go, oh, I don't have the grounding that usually makes me feel comfortable of how would a normal person behave. Right. It's scary to have strange characters who have completely different ways of communicating that don't necessarily make sense. Sure. I mean, we...

We haven't had a jerk in so long. And I missed that kind of stuff. That's why I think that Tim Robinson show hit so hard. Because it's silly and wacky and kind of abstract. He goes so hard, that guy. It's like a level of vulnerability. People say this comic was so vulnerable. I remember Nick Vadrat. We used to do shows like The Creek. I don't know if you know Nick. But Nick would go so high energy for four people in the crowd. And I'd be like, this is ball.

I always loved that Nick just had balls. Big act outs for no payoff. That was a terrifying moment. Well, for four people, he was hilarious. I mean, he is hilarious. Sure. That's why people say, how do you stay interested? Because at some point you realize, oh, I'm like 37 years into this. Wow. And if you add interviewing people, it's like 40 years of a full obsession. And it really is that it's always terrifying. Yeah.

Like every second of it, like my movie comes out on Friday the 1st. Yeah. By the time this is out, it'll be out. I don't know if people are going to go like, oh man, thank you for making me laugh or that is the stupidest worst movie you've ever made. And that's why you do it. Yes. Because it's just, you cannot hold on to it and make it like a stable life. Yeah.

- Yeah, right, right. - You just can't. You just do not know what people are gonna go for at any moment. And sometimes the thing that you love

People don't go for it. And then 15 years later, it pops up and you're like, what? People like the cable guy now? Cult classic. I was going to get to that. You wrote the cable guy. I did. Yes. I'm not credited. I did like a lot of writing on the cable guy. I was the producer. So as a producer, it's very hard to be credited as a writer. Like the rules are that you have to change an enormous amount to get the credit, which always broke my heart because I was so proud of the writing on that. Yeah.

And then people would laugh at me because I sued the Writers Guild because I said that the rule was not fair. Because if someone who's not the producer rewrites a movie, it's easier for them to get credited than if you're the producer and you rewrite the movie. Right.

And it's there to protect people from getting screwed over by producers who are trying to get credit. But it's ultimately unfair because why should it be a different amount of work? But anyway, so the cable guy bombs, but I'm suing the guild to get my name on it. And everyone used to make fun of me. You're really suing to get your name on the movie? And you did Celtic Pride too. I did Celtic Pride. Another underrated movie. Oh, wow. Well, the thing is Colin Quinn wrote Celtic Pride and it was...

it was not makeable because he just had all the NBA players doing drugs and there was gambling and like everything in it would never get the NBA to allow it to be made. To use the logos and everything. Yeah, you just couldn't do it. And it was really, really funny. And so...

so I said, can I take a pass at it and see if I can get it makeable? And the funny thing about it is when we shot it, it was the last thing they did at Boston garden before they tore it down. Oh, wow. Cause of the movie. Exactly. Yeah. And so that was one of those that, you know, it,

totally was not what we hoped it would be. Yeah. You know, and... But also it was so fun because we got to hang out at Boston Garden and like Bob Guzzi's there. Like a lot of those people were around at that time. And it just didn't all come together. But it was a great... I always felt bad because...

Quinn wrote such a cool thing. Right. You know, but it was just so edgy. Anytime you have a great idea for like football and you're like, and then the football players doing coke, you're like, you can't make it. Really? Because Slapshot. Unless you want to make up the, yeah, but it's making up the teams. Yeah. Good point. Good point. Remember they did it in, they had that show on ESPN Playmakers back in the day. Oh, yeah. And it was like the Sharks, their team. The Sharks. Yeah, because these aren't real football teams, but they're doing blow. First and ten. Right, right. Remember Sports Night? Yeah.

- That was a great show. - That was good. - Yeah, classic. - Was that Sorkin? - Yeah. - Oh! - Only one season, I think. - Damn, I think it was too smart for the room. - Yeah. - Well, it came at that weird time when I think you needed a laugh track to be in. They were like, "What is this? "It's just a situation comedy without laughing." - Well, Undeclared, I think, suffered from that 'cause they weren't single-camera comedy shows. So we were on after that '70s show. We just didn't fit in anywhere.

And so we just seemed odd. There's all these weird factors. I feel like we're getting out of that with internet a little bit. Because, you know, back in the day it was like Seinfeld only made it because they put it on after Cheers randomly. You know, it probably wouldn't have caught steam if it wasn't on after Cheers. And that just took off. But like...

Now with the internet, it's just here you go whenever you want or Apple TV or streaming or whatever. It's just there. Yeah, it's just sitting there. Well, the habit of TV sucks now because you watch the whole show in a few days. So it's it's

Instead of 22, it's like six or eight. And you eat it up. And then it disappears for like two years. You don't remember what it was. And then you eat it up again. And then it shows up two and a half years later. Like it was fun like watching MASH every week. Because you had a relationship with the show. It was like part of your life. And now it's not like that. And someone was telling me that.

They've basically decided that the idea of dropping it all at once really doesn't work for the audience, that they don't like it. They don't mind like dropping two and next week dropping two, like maybe like not just one a week, but that...

People like to be engaged for a couple of months. I think so. Even if they want to binge it, they know it's... Because you forget episode one. You want them all. You don't remember the first cookie when you're on number 11. You don't have that feeling anymore. I'm a big Curb nut. And Curb would come out every Sunday. And so did Succession. So it was like my big night. Curb and Succession, same night.

Sopranos. And Sopranos. Sopranos was like The Godfather was coming out every week for like seven, eight years. Sopranos is our favorite show ever. You know, Mad Men's another one where it's like it was every week, but also it was like two and a half years in between seasons. You'd be like, these kids are adults now. What the hell is happening? I know, right? They're aging in a very weird way. And sometimes like the end of one season, the first episode of the next season is the next day, and the kid's grown a year and a half. Yeah.

He's got a mustache. We don't want to keep you here because we know you've got the Fallon. Are we already on time? We're not because I have to go on the Tonight Show right now and push things.

and try to be sharp. Well, this is a great episode. I've only read like four or five of the interviews so far, but I can't wait to finish this. Great book. Yeah, love the first one. So I'm excited for this one. Yeah, love it. It's really awesome. And I can't wait to see the movie, man. Netflix, The Bubble. The Bubble. Carlin Dock coming out. In May. And I know you guys,

know most of Judd's work but you know we have a lot of diehard comedy nerds who listen to this so this is your demo man yeah before you go one comic you hate no I'm sure I can find one besides Cosby yeah too easy thanks so much Judd thank you Judd you're the man I'm out to lunch here in New Member and I

Oh, uh, what a great episode guys. Thanks for listening. Uh, we got a bunch of road dates coming up. I'll be at the Bray improv, uh, April 28th through 30th. I'll be in LA. That should, that show sold out. So they went at a second one, small venue, but I'm sure we'll be doing something in LA together. The time, uh,

I'm adding... Oh, this comes out the next weekend. Wait a minute. Adding what? Oh, I'm going to add, I think, a Gotham weekend in April. Oh, that's a great idea. But that already passed. Yeah. I don't want the stress of another theater show. I just want to do it. I was about to say. No, no, no. We got Zany's in Nashville, Albany, Toronto. It's a second show added. First one sold out. We got Providence, Chicago taping. I hope to see you there. Hell yeah. At the Den, we got...

I'm all over the place. Just go to the website. I can't read anymore. Cleveland, Tampa, samorell.com slash shows. Love ya. Yeah.

I'm all over the road. Phoenix at Stand Up Live. Big room, so come on out. Great club. Great club. Colusa, California. It's a casino. Lord knows that'll be wacky. Denver, some theater. I think it's called the Paramount. Addison Improv Comedy Club in Dallas. Love that room. Love that town. Bricktown Comedy Club in OKC. Another great one. San Jose Improv coming up. Huge. Huge room. Cool town. I'm there in August, I think. Yeah, huge room.

Uh-oh, stand up live in Huntsville and Minneapolis. I spent a week there one night. Pantages Theater, Minneapolis, Chicago at the Vic, Cleveland, Irvine, all kinds of good dates. MarkNormanComedy.com. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to tell your friends about the pod. I hope you enjoyed this one. Pick up Judge's book. It really is. I'm only like a few into it, and it's...

I can't speak Inuit. Intuit. It's great. Inuit is an Eskimo. I'm Inuit. A lot of great stuff today. So, yeah, we might be drunkpod at gmail.com if you want to send us emails, questions, bits, drinks, whatever you want. Yeah, wrecks, peeves, whatever you want. We'll take it. So tell a friend, get on board, have a drink or don't, and we'll see you on the road.