Neuroendocrinology (SEX & GENDER) Mega Encore with Daniel Pfau 02:02:39

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Oh, hello. Okay, it's 2024 Allie with a really lovely and important and favorite episode of Ologies that we have smashed together to make a mega encore for you. It was originally two parts. Look, now you can listen to it all at once without pressing any buttons. Okay, so this week I'm up in the woods for a wedding for my friends Zeke Rodriguez-Thomas and Kelly Shanley, both of whom have worked on Ologies. They've worked on our kid-friendly show Smologies as we were starting those up. By the way, you can find Smologies in its own feed these days. Those are classroom safe.

kid-friendly. Anyway, I'm off just for this quick week so that I can take a few days to be in the forest with them, and I wanted to bring this episode back for you. But it's refreshed with some new 2024 asides and facts and a great, great update about a recent study that just came out. So here we go.

Oh, hey, it's that uncle who swears you can cook fish in the dishwasher. And you're like, oh, that's okay. I'm okay. Allie Ward, back for an exciting, timely, proud episode of Ologies. But first, a few thanks. Thank you to everyone on Patreon who makes it possible for this podcast to happen.

From day one, thanks to everyone who passes episodes around and makes new ologites. Thanks to everyone rating the podcast. It takes two seconds for subscribing and keeping it up in the charts. And of course, for leaving reviews like little happy word gnomes that make my day. I read them all so that I can pick one. And this is 2020 for me coming in again with a fresh one. Like this one from Allison is golden, who wrote interesting topics presented in an

approachable, well-researched, and easy manner. Allison is golden. Thank you from my golden goblin to yours. Okay, neuroendocrinology. So neuro comes from the Greek for nerve, which comes from a word for tendon or sinew or cord or penis. So we're in this.

Now, endocrine means relating to hormones, which are secreted by different glands. And it comes from the Greek for to separate or to distinguish because they needed to figure out which glands squirt which hormone juices. They were like, I don't know.

Who knows where this comes from? So neuroendocrinology, the science of a bunch of cords in your body interacting with a bunch of squirty stuff no one understands in a nutshell. So what is biological sex versus gender and why are people attracted to one gender over the others? How many genders are there?

And what happens if we don't feel aligned with the one we were assigned at birth? When do you know if you're queer? What does queer even mean? Why is so much of it made political or religious? So I met this guest through a tweet. I tweeted out, happy almost Pride Month. Any topics or ologists you would love to hear to celebrate Pride 2020, I'm all ears and microphones. And

and @endoqueer, K-W-E-E-R, tweeted back, "Just gonna shamelessly plug myself as a non-binary biologist studying hormones and the evolution of same-sex behavior in animals." Five seconds later, I was in their DMs like, "Hey." So this neuroscientist got a BS in animal sciences and a master's in biological sciences at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. They did their PhD work at Michigan State University looking at how environmental signals contribute to sex differences

and mouse brains, we talk all about it. And in part two, we're gonna dive into the question back and address all of your gender queries. But in part one, we cover the parts of the brain that could influence orientation and common myths and being queer in the science field. What percentage of older generations identified outside the man-woman gender binary? What percentage of younger folks do now and why? Different gender terminology, what it means,

the worst gender reveal parties and the best cat meow ever with the charming, candid, patient, and lovely neuroendocrinologist, Dr. Daniel Bao. But yeah, I'm so excited to have gotten introduced to you on Twitter too. I was like, this is perfect. I have so many questions. I was like, oh my goodness. I started listening to the planariology with the planarians. The

The professor who you're interviewing was just talking about how you just got to get out there and do it when he was looking to publish his book. And I was like, okay, you know what? I should do that. I'm just going to shamelessly throw myself out there. I love it. And then it works out sometimes. And then it works out.

And I would love to know, kind of, how did you get so interested in the brain and in hormones? Were you always interested in psychology or were you interested in biochemistry? Yeah, I mean, when I was younger, my parents say that I didn't really have first words. I was really quiet. And eventually I started having first sentences. And one of my...

was saying that when I grow up, I'm going to work in a laboratory. Gosh!

And I don't remember actually ever saying this, but they tell me it's what I said. A laboratory. So Daniel says they grew up in a devout religious house and didn't have cable or much media access, but must have picked up the laboratory accent somewhere, which just scientifically speaking, there's nothing cuter than a kid saying laboratory. Nothing. Did you drop that interest when you were growing up or has that kind of always been a focus for you?

You know, it's actually interesting because when I was growing up, I actually struggled a lot with coming out as a queer individual because of the sort of conservative community I was growing up with and sort of just the...

separation from, like I was saying, my, my family didn't really have TV or media. Uh, there's this huge separation between me and sort of the greater culture around me. And so I was sort of isolated with this conservative church. And for a long time, um,

I struggled with it. And when I finally sort of started talking to someone, it was happened to be a psychologist. So this psychologist cited some research in a recent, air quotes, scientific talk about conversion therapy. The talk was given basically about X-ray therapy and how it had some suggest that some evidence supported its efficacy, suggesting it worked. And when this study

sort of person I was like, oh, yes, this is a person who knows science and like I'm really into science. And I'm also really afraid of this thing that I know is a sin and all these things that I've grown up with. And immediately as soon as he brought in this sort of like evidence coming from the scientific fields that supported the idea that I could sort of

fix myself and be what I thought was expected of me and what I thought would make me happy. And so when I had that experience, I actually really struggled for a long time to come out. But when I finally did, I sort of rejected science quite a bit at first. I was like, I am done with research. Like,

I'm just going to do stuff with animals. I wanted to become a veterinarian and I wanted to like work at zoos where I'd just be working with animals. Yeah, you're like people, I'm over you. Exactly. And, you know, it was pretty difficult to get back into the field because there's still a lot of both transphobia and homophobia in the scientific disciplines. Yeah. Yeah.

I asked what faith or denomination Daniel had grown up with. As someone raised Catholic who has plenty of years just detangling those tendrils from my own psyche, I was curious. Also, I was going to say detangling tentacles of Catholic upbringing just then, but I had a moment where I was earnestly like, that's not fair to cephalopods. But do

Daniel says it was a Christian church and the kids raised in it would get bullied at school. And their mission may have changed since Daniel was a kid. It's been a couple decades, but I Googled them and their motto is unfortunately, quote, you can come as you are, but you won't leave as you came. It is a great motto for a salon, though. Come as you are, you're not going to leave as you came. A church?

Like, a lot of the kids at school would say things like, oh, yeah, the Grace Church punch kids because, like, they drank the Grace Church punch because they're very brainwashed in a way. And it's very true. There was, like, I remember...

I really didn't like going to hang out with the other kids because I just didn't fit in there. And so I'd beg my parents to allow me to come to big church, which is where the adults would go. And so I'd sit in there. But even in there, there'd be within sermons mentions of the evils of homosexuality. So there wasn't really any escaping of it.

Whether or not I was with the kids who were definitely drinking that Grace Church punch and expressing homophobia and all those kinds of things. Or even with the adults where that same sentiment is being expressed by the person in charge. At what point did you feel like you were genderqueer, that you were not, you know, cis or straight? At what point did you feel like, hmm?

I kind of feel like they're talking about people like me and that sucks. Yeah, you know, when I was really young, I had a very precarious notion of gender because I sort of was convinced that

like at some point in my life, I would eventually be given another choice. I was like planning for that choice in a way, but I also was like dreading that choice. And I remember a lot of my time when I was in childhood, we would play games like house and stuff like that. And I'd always

prefer to be ungendered. Like, I'd be the baby or I'd be a cat. And then even when I was younger, my mom made me a costume for Halloween because I wanted to be a bat. And gyms and the stores were Batman. And I did not want to be dressed as Batman. And when my mom made me the costume and I'd wear it out and people would be like, oh, are you Batman? I'd get really upset about it. And honestly...

One of the sad things that happened too was way back when I had gone to a counselor when I was very young, they had sort of instilled in me this idea that if I am feeling the need to express myself in a unique way, that it's better to not do so because it makes other people uncomfortable. Oh my God. Oh my God. What? Yeah. And so I think my parents honestly...

It's difficult to sort of say that they understood what was going on because it would be like they'd send me to a therapist and I was too afraid to share anything with my parents. And so I continued to share with these therapists these things. And so the difficult thing was sort of eventually separating what

I had gleaned from being at church and being in these therapy sessions and not receiving any other signals from my parents or from media and trying to make sense of it all. For a long time, I just couldn't. There were no examples in my life really. I assumed

absolutely the worst, but I just assumed that there was no future for me in a way. And so I think that really only started to change when I came out. I came out as queer, basically. I

When I came out, I came out as gay, but I had been attending a queer youth group for a really long time and I really identified with that word, but very few people actually know the word queer or understood what it meant and just was easier to say gay. And for a long time now, since then, I've been like, you know, no, I really want to say that that's how I identify because I've always very much felt like

a strong connection with that word. How would you kind of define those words separately or if someone wants to make sure that they're using them appropriately? Oh, yeah. I mean, I love the word queer because it's very radically affirming, meaning that it's

When you use that word, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a strict set of queer identities. It's accepting of any future experiences that someone might be able to inhabit, or it's very accepting of the fact simply that...

cultural differences make it so third gender options across the world vary. So in some countries you have this huge variation, like in the United States, where we have people who identify as genderqueer, we have people who identify as gender neutral or transgender, people who identify along different spectrums like demimales and demifemales. And when you look out at other

cultures, you find that similar things exist. Okay, so soon we'll get into the science of all this in a sec, or a few secs.

Get it? A few seconds. Okay, so I wanted to provide a primer for some different genders in case anyone is like, I'm not sure how many they are or what they mean or who to ask. So Daniel sent me this really wonderful graphic. It's called the Gender Unicorn, and it's this happy, goofy, purple unicorn. And in a thought bubble with a rainbow, it says gender identity.

female, woman, girl, or male, man, boy, or other genders. There's gender expression, which is feminine, masculine, or other. There's sex assigned at birth, and that is like a DNA strand over the crotch area. And it's female, male, or other slash intersex.

Then in the heart area, it says physically attracted to women, men, or other genders. And then another heart says emotionally attracted to women, men, or other genders.

So you can mix and match. That's a lot of options. And intersex, just in case you're not sure, according to GLAAD, those are people born with reproductive or sexual anatomy and or chromosome patterns that can't be classified typically as male or female. Because biologically, there's more than two outcomes there. Nature is amazing. Okay, now what about genders? Your gender identity or your expression? Here are a few, but no means a comprehensive list. There's

genderqueer, gender neutral. There's transgender. Demi males or demi females experience their gender as partly a girl or a boy, partly another gender. Asexual folks are out there. They don't experience sexual attraction. Agender folks are out there. Don't identify with any gender or intentionally don't follow expectations of a gender. Cisgender folks are not transgender, so they identify with the sex they were assigned at birth. If the doctor said, it's about

And you're like, "Yeah, I feel like a boy." That tracks, then you're cis. Non-binary friends don't feel their gender is best expressed in those man/woman boxes. There's gender questioning, a person exploring other identities or expressions or presentations. Gender fluid pals experience their gender as a spectrum. They might fluctuate between presenting as feminine, masculine, neither, or both. It can change for them.

So there's an awesome glossary of all these terms and more compiled and written by GLAAD and Refinery29. And I'm going to link it on the show page at aliewar.com slash ology slash neuroendocrinology. It's so helpful and it's so inspiring. I mean, it's like entering an Ikea of genders. The choices, the beauty, the possibilities. And side note, when you put your pronouns in your bio or your email signature or your conference name tags or your Zoom meeting label, even if you're cis,

and straight as an arrow. It helps normalize it for others. I'd personally love it if everyone in the future goes by they if they wanted to. I hope that we just transition to that for everyone. You know what I love? I've seen a few studies

And one specifically showing that when people sort of shift to gender neutral language like that, affirm it more, the salience of like female voices is actually increased within conversations, within media and stuff like that. Really? So it's just funny to know that...

even just identifying as genderqueer and sort of forcing this, like, hey, you have to, you don't use your language with me. Hopefully, maybe even helping everyone up a little bit too. Absolutely. It does seem so odd to structure a sentence based on what you think is in someone's pants. I think that's so invasive. Yeah.

Daniel says different cultures express gender differently. So in Samoan society, they have these individuals and they're called fa'afatine. And they are individuals who are assigned male at birth and they're

When you are in their society and within their culture, this is sort of the cultural option for individuals that are assigned male at birth but feel attracted to individuals of the same sex.

And this is sort of based in the idea of their identities. And so it's more complicated in other areas where individuals might, for example, like myself, I identify queer because it isn't necessarily that I only am attracted to individuals of the same sex because I see individuals that can be of different

different sex, but of a gender I'm still attracted to. And so I identify queer because I find that no matter what sex an individual has, the gender that they are expressing is of more importance to me and can drives my attraction more.

So some folks might be attracted to just a certain sex or all of them or just a certain gender or all of them. And we're seeing at least a little bit of a shift in language where I think for a long time gender...

and sex were used interchangeably. But even from a scientific standpoint, those are different. They're completely different labels, correct? Absolutely, yes. I study sex differences in the brain, and that's sort of something that's been of interest to me, of mine for a long time, and specifically for these sort of reasons. And

When I think of sex, I typically think of how people are going to be defining it in terms of culturally. People usually reduce it to things like you're saying, what's inside someone's pants.

chromosomes or hormone levels. And really one of the things about human sex is that we have a lot more variation in terms of our development because of how it's portioned off in our

Our bodies develop at different times as our brains develop, and the hormone levels might vary during those times. So even individuals within the same sex actually show a lot of variation amongst themselves. And so there's a few studies out there showing within the brain. So this is Dr. Daphne Joel, and she does work on fMRI scans of the brain. So we're looking at actual human brains on a

So this is Dr. Daphna Joel. And Dr. Joel is an Israeli neuroscientist at the School of Psychological Sciences and the School of Neuroscience at Tel Aviv University. And this part coming up is amazing. What her work suggests is basically that instead of there being like these two monolithic groups of the male brain and the female brain divided by sex...

there's actually sort of more of a mosaic within every individual. And so each individual has both male and female regions or masculized and feminized regions. And one of the implications, I think, one of the important implications of this, I think, is that rather than seeing...

differences between the sexes is huge and something of importance, we also need to really pay attention to the fact that the differences between individuals are also very large within humans. Yes, we are all different. The way I like to think about it sort of is that

Any average difference between males and females is smaller than individual differences between any male and any other male, and any female and any other female. That's getting to the idea of how gender can be developed in that it's not necessarily this black and white thing of man and woman. There's a spectrum and individuals might feel that their experiences

go along more with a certain identity versus someone who maybe like me feels like oftentimes they're at odds. Like in some situations, I'm absolutely seeing myself in a genderqueer light. I see myself as an individual who

is sort of working from this place of not necessarily having any restrictions based on my gender. And because of that, I'm able to more freely discuss my opinions in an authentic way.

And this, this is really exciting. This is a great 2024 update since this episode first aired a few years ago. So just two weeks ago in July 2024, a study came out in the journal Science Advances and it was titled Functional Brain Networks are Associated with Both Sex and Gender in

children and it explains that although there's some overlap in the association of sex and gender they are uniquely represented in the brain and that sex is preferentially associated with somatomotor visual control and limbic networks while the network correlates of gender are more distributed throughout the brain and

And the researchers say that these results suggest that sex and gender are irreducible to one another, not only in society, but also in biology. This is huge. So what would you do if people didn't see you as your gender assigned at birth? What would you do?

Would you cry more openly? Would you buzz all your hair off? Would you ask different genders out on dates if you felt attracted to them? Would you stop waxing parts of your body that hurt? Would you apply for a higher level job? Would you wear lipstick? Would you stand up to authority more? Would you be more nurturing? There's so many ways that expectations of ourselves change how we act. And so...

When I think about sex and gender, I really think about how humans are so much more complex than, for example, animals, where it's obvious that we can really measure some very distinct differences between males and female animals. And

Compared to humans, those differences can be much greater than individual differences. An embryo or a fetus is developing. There is a stage where the reproductive system is pretty much the same, and then it can split off one way or the other. What's happening with brain development? So that's a good question. I mean, one of the things that I think has come from

research looking into a transgender brain or the gendered brain is this idea of variety.

And honestly, I feel like you're saying there are these periods of development where, like you're saying, the gonads develop at a specific period and then the brain develops at a specific period. But it's not just as simple as that. The gonads develop at a specific period and they release hormones at specific periods.

The brain develops at a specific period, but also different regions within the brain are going to develop at different periods. So if you have variability with any number of those factors, you're going to end up with a lot more differences between individuals. Whereas with animals, you sort of have this much more strict aspect of development because

For us, our brain development is very elongated. And gender identity doesn't really solidify until we've actually developed a little bit past our natal period. So we actually, when we are born, there's likely no possibility for us to sort of express our gender, I would say.

So gender reveal parties and blue and fuchsia onesies are not an expression of gender. They're just clothes telling other people what you think your baby's gender will be based on what is in their diaper. And I have a really good friend, and he and his wife are two of the smartest people I have ever met, like true science geniuses. And they have yet to announce their year-old child's gender because they say they don't know it.

They call their baby they, them, or baby, or its name. And they say if anyone's really curious about its sex, they can change its diaper. They slip up with pronouns, and they're not upset if anyone else does. But they said it's an interesting experiment to not impose roles on a child. And also, it was a way to open their relatives' eyes to gender expression and nonconformity. I applaud this, and I love it. But what if you don't have a baby to run this trial on?

maybe look at lizards. And what about some of the neuroscience research you do? You've worked with Western fence lizards, right? I think that was their cat.

Wait, let's hear it again. You've worked with Western. Dang, that was cute. Okay, so Western fence lizards, a critter we also talked about in serology with Aaron McGee, is a species Daniel's worked with. Yes. So this goes back to my childhood, actually, because I grew up right near sort of this really rocky field area.

And we had tons of these. They call them blue bellies on California. Yes, yes, yes. Wait, where about in California did you grow up? San Luis Obispo. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's where you did your study too. Yes. Cal Poly. Right, right, right. Yep. Yes.

Yes. Okay. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Yes. It was actually really awesome because I loved watching them when I was younger. I'd spend hours outside. And that's another thing about me when I was younger. I just loved watching nature. I could sit outside and like stare at the plant and watch just staring at how it branches and how the growth is happening and which leaves are the most

like developed versus the ones that aren't and where they are in the brand is, yeah. And I would just sit there and watch animals and these blue bellies were absolutely one of my favorites to watch 'cause they do these cute little pushups where it's like a little territorial display where

when they see another male. So these are the males that perform these pushups and you'll see them out basking in the sun. And if they see another male come nearby, they'll do a territorial display. And it really makes, it helps to prevent sort of

physical interaction. So if they can scare off this male with these push-ups, then neither of them really has to go all the way as to expend enough energy as to get in a fight and possibly get hurt, which is a huge cost to the animal. Big push-ups! And so I just love watching them. And when I got to

Cal Poly and started working at a vet clinic, I realized I was really just enjoying my time in the lab there doing sort of work on the microscope and doing blood work and things like that. And so when I

I was taking a biology course on, it was basically just sort of intro biology. And the professor, Dr. Emily Taylor, was actually giving a talk about these really cool studies where people looked at

pheromones in humans. And what they were seeing is if these men wore these t-shirts, these white t-shirts, and they didn't wear any deodorant or drink any alcohol or have any coffee, and then they took off the shirts and allowed women to smell them,

And then allowed the women to rate the attractiveness of the men based on the t-shirt smell. I think there's a positive relationship between how highly they score the scent and how highly they score the attractiveness of the male.

And so afterwards I walked up and I asked Dr. Taylor sort of like, oh my goodness, what I ever been any research like this done in the homosexual community? And she was like, oh, well, it hasn't, but that is such an awesome question. And it's really cool that you're thinking about stuff like that. And she was like, you know, there's a new professor here that's looking at

the brain and actually hormones, which is sort of related. And I had been sort of already thinking, okay, I really need to switch it up. And when this opportunity appeared, I was like, okay, I'll check it out. And I started working in a lab. And honestly, this was Dr. Christy Strand. And Dr. Strand's mentorship really just meant so much to me because in the

terms of sort of feeling lost in the world of biology after what I'd been through, it really helped to have someone like her as well as Dr. Taylor to

really just provide me with a safe place to be queer and be a scientist. And I know 500 Queer Scientists is great helping people find that community. Did you find that when you were starting in science that it was kind of difficult to express your identity in academia? Oh, definitely. I was once advised to not put my volunteer work in the LGBTQ community on an

application for grad school because people might be biased against that. So yes, absolutely. It was difficult. There was a lot of... The school I attended, Cal Poly, is known for being somewhat more conservative. And the...

During the time that I was there, actually, we got our first Pride Center, which started out as like, if you know those like buildings that they bring in when they're doing construction. Like a trailer, like. Yeah. And the other side of the building was actually the office for the construction worker. Oh, my God. And so we were in this little alleyway building.

But they say that that Pride Center, even though it was first situated in a portable building, was incredibly empowering, especially because in academia, there can be pressure to conform to kind of older standards. But I think the cool thing is, is that there's nothing more gender neutral than doctor.

Oh, yeah. That's my one absolute favorite thing. As soon as they told me I could call myself doctor, I was like, everybody's going to call me Dr. Nunn. Everybody gets to call me. Everybody's going to call me Dr. Nunn. Can you tell me a little bit about your PhD work or a little bit about the research? Like, what do you...

What kind of questions did you really want to answer? Yeah, so I was actually really, really lucky. I worked with Dr. Cynthia Jordan, who typically does work on sort of a disease model that's looking at a disease called Kennedy's disease, which is based on hormone interactions with neurons and

She's had this really cool discovery that interactions between the muscles and the neurons, looking at that specifically, you can alter your methods of treating it and maybe interact with the muscle more rather than the neurons themselves.

Daniel says that they struggled landing in the new territory of Lansing, Michigan, and looking back at the LGBTQ community at Cal Poly, they reflect. The community there really helped me to strengthen myself and really helped me find my power again. But Daniel's PhD work at Michigan State University dealt with something that they have been fascinated with since their early college days. Since undergrad. So when I was an undergrad, I learned about these mice and

These mice that have lost this gene called the transient receptor potential cation channel 2. Of course. Or TRPC2. Yeah, TRPC2 is much easier. So this protein is used by a sort of sensory organ in the nose of rodents and other animals. And it typically detects pheromones and it's called the vomeronasal organ.

And this organ basically specializes in detecting those pheromones. And pheromones are typically considered chemicals that are released by one animal that are supposed to be detected by an animal of the same species and enact a behavioral or chemical change within them. - You've got a nice smell about you. - So when the bromananous organ senses a pheromone, it's able to send a signal to the brain that is sent to several regions. And these signals,

are lost when TRPC2 gene is taken out. - Oh. - Yeah, I mean, there's very weak signals, but in general, the signal is lost. And so these mice, they have a vomeronasal organ, but it cannot send signals to the brain, mostly. - Oh, wow.

Okay, so to recap, a vomer nasal organ, a.k.a. a Jacobson organ, is in the snoots of a lot of reptiles and vertebrates, and it's this patch of sexy sensory cells within the nas hole. That's a nose, and it detects, quote,

heavy, moisture-borne odor particles. Humans have a little one too, but scientists don't even know if we use it past the fetal stage. Also, a knockout mouse is a genetically modified lab mouse that has certain genes knocked out of it for research. In this case, the TRPC2 gene. So without that gene, a line of communication between that organ and the brain is lost. So what happens?

They show these fascinating behaviors. One of the really interesting ones is that the females that have lost this gene show male typical mounting, meaning that they'll actually mount both

males and females actually. It's really interesting to see just this female mouse that you typically would have to give a high amount of testosterone to in order to induce these behaviors, to just simply be mounting any that you put in there with it. The same thing is true for the males. They'll mount both male and female mice. I was just fascinated by this when I was younger.

Well, in undergrad. When I was talking to Dr. Jordan about this, she had actually been very interested in looking at these mice as well. We decided that we would look at the brain because previous research has suggested that the reason why these behaviors existed was simply because the loss of these signals so that the merinase organ was gone and without those signals, the brain was acting differently.

And I really thought that there must be something more to it, that it couldn't simply be that the signal is gone and suddenly females are mounting. There had to be some more robust changes to something beyond just the vulvar nasal organ.

And so we decided to look into the brain of these animals. And I decided to look at these two regions associated with the behaviors that these knockout mice show that are altered. So not only do they show altered sexual behaviors, but they also show altered aggressive behavior. So males that would typically aggress towards males don't actually show any aggression towards males and they'll melt them. And then females, when they're actually nursing their pups, they have what's called a maternal aggression.

This is really interesting and it's actually related to another animal that I consider queer. Female mice in the wild, when they have a litter, want to protect it because if a male mice comes along and those pups aren't his, he will kill them so that she will go back into cycling and he can be impregnated because he wants her to have his babies.

Right. It's like literal toxic masculinity. Exactly. Like, actual, like, lethal. Inaction, right here. Yeah. And so what the females do is when they're nursing, they gain aggression. And they only aggress towards males that are not the male that they mated with. And so these females, which typically show aggression while nursing, when the gene is lost, they don't. Oh.

And so these big changes in behavior are seen in these knockout animals. And it's just sort of like, I felt like this idea that it was simply the loss of signals in the immunohazard organ just simply was, it was just too simple to explain it. And so, and I feel like Cindy really felt the same and she was like, let's do it. Let's look at it. Let's get these mice and look at the brains. And I was real excited. We, we did it and it was really cool. We did find that within these two regions, there are quite a lot of changes between the, um,

wild type animals, which are the ones that do have the gene and the animals that don't. And actually I have, I'm working on the manuscript for that right now. So Daniel's working on a manuscript about those reproductive behavioral changes. And I can't say much about it, but they were like, I can tell you about more queer behavior in animals. And I was like, hello, my ears are open.

So remember the lady mice who will usually throw down if someone tries to eat their babies and then date them? The same exact paradigm actually happens in lions. So when a pride is headed by a male, the females will mate with him and they'll have all their cubs. But if that male dies, then another male comes in. And if there's cubs in the pride, he'll kill him because he's

that will cause the females to start cycling again and be able to have more cubs sooner. What a dick. Now, the females, some females have developed this ability to grow a mane and develop a really deep roar. And so if a female is in a pride and all of her sisters have cubs, and that's really great genetics for her because she's

still got her genes going on to the next generation and the male dies and another male comes in, it's definitely helpful. She's got a mane and she can roar like a male lion and she can protect the cubs for a little while longer. Oh my God. Life finds a way. Just want to say that

As a child-free aunt with huge untamed red hair, I am just feeling this vibe. So to my niece fuse, if you ever have a stepdad who sucks, God forbid, I will scream in his face. I had no idea that that was a thing. Yeah. I mean, this one specifically, I love it, but I don't believe there has been any specific work to make sure that's exactly what's happening. But it's definitely...

something that can occur based on the behavioral interactions in lion prides. And in hyenas, there's certain species of hyenas that have almost like a pseudophallus, right? Yes. So the females have these giant clitoris that the birth canal goes through. And so they are, like you said, they're pseudophalluses. And it's really interesting because of how sort of

Not only is there this phallus on the females, but what people would consider gender roles are somewhat switched up in that the females are the ones that are really in charge and the males are very submissive to these females. Is that hormonal too, do you think? One of the things that's really interesting, I think, in animals is that hormones can have different effects in different species that are very related.

Did you click play on this podcast to gossip about the love lives of prairie voles and mountain voles? You know you did. And prairie voles, I believe, are monogamous and montane moles are polygamous. And the brain regions that they have that control sort of pair bonding have receptors for oxytocin and vasopressin.

and depending on the number of receptors controls whether or not they are going to be expressing polygamy or monogamy behaviors.

Wow. So yes, if a prairie vole, which is like a little meadow mouse, hangs out for a day or so after boning, they will bond for life and they'll groom and cuddle with each other, probably start wearing matching windbreakers, order the same salads, and they'll mate and raise babies together. Doesn't mean they won't occasionally get some on the side, but their brain chemicals act like an emotional epoxy and they are life partners. That is, that's so interesting.

that this is happening, there's, you know, just...

all over nature and that it's chemicals. And yeah, I mean, all we are is a big bag of soupy chemicals in general, but we're just a bunch of rearranged molecules. But that's so interesting to see how that behavior is in the wild too. Yeah. And another thing, deer that have low levels of androgens. So male deers that either have somehow had some testicular trauma or

Or they were born with androgen insensitivity. They might grow up to be what's called a velvet deer. And so these are the deer that have like antlers, but there's still that fuzzy velvet. And what they've shown in this one has actually been studied. They looked at a population of deer that had the male antlers.

queer deers in them. And then they had another population that didn't. And they were looking during the mating season. What they found is that in the populations that had these queer deer, the aggression that was directed towards females was reduced because males sort of directed it towards the queer deer. But because these velvet males

queer deer were very wary of the males and didn't meet to reproduce with them. It just didn't affect them, but it had the effect of reducing aggression towards the females. Wow. The idea of sort of these feminized males reducing aggression towards females has been put forth in a lot of different species, actually. It's sociological.

as well as neuroendocrinology. Neuroendocrinology. I can't say that. Neuroendocrinology. Yeah, I can't either. It's really hard to say. Neuroendocrinologically. Yes, thank you. Neuroendocrinological. Neuroendocrinological. Fuck. Neuroendocrinological.

Okay, it's a real mouthful. So while my face recovers from trying to pronounce that, let's take a quick break for some messages from sponsors. So each week, our ologist chooses an organization to get a donation made possible by sponsors of the show. And this week, Dr. Daniel Thao chose...

the Marsha P. Johnston Institute, that's marshap.org, which we're going to talk about a little bit later in the episode. This episode and the next are dedicated to her memory and to all of the strength and contributions that black trans women and men and non-binary people who have made such huge sacrifices and leaps in establishing traditions of pride and the effects of that that it's had on our culture. So a donation was made to that wonderful institute thanks to sponsors of the show.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. And as I record this, my dog, Gremmy, is snoring.

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Okay, we'll get back into conversation with Daniel, who, are you ready for this? Had a paper published just last year titled The Descent of Sexuality. Did loss of a pheromone signaling protein permit the evolution of same-sex sexual behavior in primates? And if you are like listening to this in the car or somewhere with a low ceiling, watch out or open your sunroof because you will definitely punch a fist in the air in a second. So this article, um,

It's actually really interesting. So if you remember, I talked about how when I was in ex-gay therapy or conversion therapy, the scientists who had given the talk at the conference talking about how ex-gay therapy could work actually published in this journal called the Archives of Sexual Behavior. It was this article that sort of was like, these patients says it works. And so we're saying that it might work. And when...

I eventually sort of came up with this theory. I was able to actually publish it in that same journal. So that was sort of fun. That's amazing. Yeah, I was really excited. Honestly, one of the things that I like about this format that I've been able to publish and it's called a target article for now, I don't know if it's a target article, but it's a target article.

experts are sort of weighing in on it and I'm going to be able to go back in and be like, okay, let me clarify this. But it's been interesting because the general theory that I had, and this is something that I even started thinking about when I was an undergrad too, because when I was an undergrad, I found out that not only do these TRPC2 knock on my show, these same-sex sexual behaviors, but humans lost the TRPC2 gene a long time ago.

What? Yes. And so I was like, to me, my young queer mind, I was like, what? Why am I thinking about this? How can no one be thinking about this? Why is everyone being like, oh my goodness? And I was just slipping out and everyone around me was just like, calm down. Yeah, I know. You're like, oh.

This is amazing. Oh my God. - And so eventually this target article sort of came out of that. And it was really awesome to write because I really had to look at a lot of different fields, everything from like archeology to things like neuroscience and genetics. And I really just tried to focus on the basic science of it. What I think is really interesting

And what I sort of allude to in my article is the idea that if we've been evolving with same-sex sexual behaviors for so long, then things like ex-gay therapy just simply don't make any scientific sense. Right. And not to mention, it's an incredibly...

Like emotionally invasive and traumatic experience, correct? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's something that I still struggle with every day, honestly. It's not necessarily something that disrupts my day, but there are moments probably every day in which I think about that and think about how it hurt me. If you are fortunate and privileged enough to not know what conversion therapy entails, consider yourself lucky.

I'm not here to re-traumatize anyone, so I won't go into some of the historical horrors physically, surgically, emotionally that have been exercised on people. But some of the lightweight techniques include so-called therapies, prayer groups, and peer pressure, and more. Study after study has debunked it as the ultimate flim-flam. Changing a person's sexual orientation through outside pressure or medical techniques is not effective. It's pseudoscience.

It's harmful. It's tragic. And in my vernacular, it is extremely shitty and awful. And to be able to publish something to contradict the tool that was used to do that is how empowering is that? Yes, very empowering. Yeah. Does that kind of mean genetically that humans as a species are like

like more queer than other species. And is that, I mean, is there something kind of affirming about that? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love, I was just reading through a friend of mine's recent papers, Dr. J. Betar Garcia, and they had a really interesting idea that when you have same-sex behaviors, it doesn't necessarily reduce the number of different sex interactions that can lead to offspring. So,

Not all different sex interactions are actually going to lead to an offspring, to producing offspring. I mean, anyone who's been on a dating app knows that. Am I right? So how long have humans been functionally, biologically, wonderfully a little queer or a lot queer? And so the idea is that

disappeared 25 million years ago when the TRPC2 gene was lost. And that's what I suggest in my article, that same-sex sexual behavior appeared then. And it's been evolving along with us that entire time. What that sort of suggests is that both heterosexuality and homosexuality are really just any queer identities that

they developed in tandem. So when we have heterosexuality presumably developing, evolving, as individuals started to want to pair up in order to have offspring together or raise offspring, to express love for sex, for emotional support, for resources, the whole time that different sex behavior was guiding that, same-sex behavior was present as well.

all through time, picture an era, any era, any kind of hats or mustaches,

And many, many people in it were thinking... This is sort of where I like to go back to sort of those really simplistic, basic ideas in science where we have this idea called parsimony, where the simplest explanation is the most sound. So to me, it doesn't make sense to assume that sort of heterosexuality and...

non-heterosexual identities developed like completely separately and somehow are exactly the same individuals that your attraction is to.

It boggles my mind. I'm like, how could you possibly think that? No, it has to have been that both of these things developed together and all these aspects are simply influenced by your attraction. But the heterosexual identity itself is very similar to non-heterosexual identities in all these factors. And so to me, it just doesn't make sense to say like, oh yeah, there's like...

completely different evolutionary trajectory that would have had to happen to create non-heterosexual identity. Right. And how are hormones affecting who we're attracted to? That's a really good question. And, you know, I love, and actually Dr. Cynthia Jordan, she co-runs a lab and the other individual that is part of the lab is Dr. Breedlove.

And he's shown these differences between finger digit ratios between lesbians and straight women. And this has been suggested to influence by hormones themselves. So the digit ratio could be influenced by the hormone levels and development, period. And so...

What we see in males is similar to what we see in lesbian women. So that suggests that the hormone levels that are influencing the digit ratio in males that are heterosexual

is also influencing lesbians that are, or is also influencing lesbians. Mm-hmm. Lesbians who are lesbians. Yes, lesbians. Yes, exactly. And so the, it's just interesting because I like that he's very open about the idea that

This is averages, huge averages. And I think one of the things that I learned from Dr. Jordan's work really is the idea that different muscles in the body and different areas of the body are going to have different sensitivities to hormones.

For funsies, you can look up the paper, What Neuromuscular Systems Tell Us About Hormones and Behavior. Also, just a fun fact. So alongside Dr. Cynthia Jordan, there is another author on the paper, a well-known biology of sexuality researcher, Dr. Mark Sperling.

Breed love. Breed love. Yeah. One of the world's experts on mating behavior and sexual orientation is named Breed Love. Is the world a simulation? Am I talking into a hairbrush and hallucinating that I have a podcast?

We'll never know. Dr. Jordan really had this study that looked at these two muscles in the body and one related to sort of sexual behaviors and one not so much. And the sensitivity to certain hormones like testosterone is different based on sort of their function.

And this can also vary between individuals. So sort of combining the work of Dr. Jordan and Dr. Breedlove, you can sort of see that the idea is basically rather than one specific period of hormones leading to a lesbian identity, there's likely hormones.

many variations of hormone levels available at specific periods or the absence of hormones at different periods, all these different factors, or even how sensitive one individual is within a brain region versus another individual.

And these all can influence the development of individuals far beyond sort of like, oh, yeah, it's this one period that will make you gay if you're on its way. Yeah, when it comes to the age old nature versus nurture question, is that even a valid question? Oh, no, not at all. It's my word. I think that's such a silly question these days because it is...

just constantly been shown that, and specifically for humans and our brains, absolutely, our brains develop to work in the environment that we are in. So our brains are just super plastic, meaning that they're ready to be changed. I've heard things about pregnant women who have had boys, if they've had a few, they've had a few boys that

that their body is trying to combat a certain amount of testosterone and that they're statistically more likely to have boys who are queer. Is that even a thing? Are maternal hormone levels even influential in the brain like that? Ah, okay. I asked about pregnant women and maternal testosterone. Hello, high word, what? Trans men can have babies and so could non-binary folks. I looked back and was like, oh, darn it.

So I'm sorry for fumbling that question. Thank you all for letting me learn in front of you. I love you. Also, Daniel phrases it as gestational parent, which I think is really cool and inclusive. So Daniel and I emailed afterward about these testosterone factors, and they said the evidence for testosterone exposure in the womb is all based on things like

We see this in men and assume it's because of high testosterone in the womb. And we see it in lesbian women too. So maybe testosterone exposure makes some people gay. No one has actually measured testosterone levels, they say. Daniel continues, first evidence. For gay men, the more older brothers you have, the more likely you will be gay.

Theory is pregnant people may gain anti-male factors from male pregnancies, leaving younger brothers from the same gestational parent exposed to increasing levels of anti-male antibodies for each older brother. And these anti-male antibodies might prevent testosterone from masculinizing the fetus. Now, second evidence, Daniel continues, finger digit ratios in homosexuals match different sex heterosexual peers at the population levels.

So theory, some evidence suggests testosterone level exposure in the womb changes finger digit ratios. That's the length ratio between two different fingers. And this suggests that testosterone sets up normal attraction,

normal is in quotes, in heterosexuals, but the process appears, quote, opposite in homosexuals. Daniel continues, my own interpretation of these data is that sex and sexual orientation are partially uncoupled. Similar but very complex processes can lead to similar attractions regardless of sex assigned at birth. There's even variation within these processes as gay men show what might be considered hypermasculization in some features.

Fun fact, Daniel notes, studies suggest that cis gay men have longer penises than cis straight men on average. Daniel continued with some additional fun facts.

So Dr. Ashlyn Swift-Gallant, she does really cool work on the androgen receptor. And this is another area where variation can occur. So individuals with specific types of androgen receptors actually show variability in the sex position they prefer in anal sex. Cool.

Really? Yeah. And so that's, I think what's, I think what the study though really points to is this idea, once again, of variation that,

while there is this sort of possible explanation, there still is just a lot of unexplained data. And I think Dr. Swishy does just a phenomenal job of making sure of that point, knowing that, you know, it's important to think beyond the single factors that are within a research paper. Right. And in your scientific opinion, perhaps, is everyone a little queer? I mean...

I would say that I prefer to let people express their experiences, you know? Yeah. You're like every single person here stayed up. Yeah, that's pretty, that's a pretty broad question. But are more, or maybe are more people queer than maybe they realize? Absolutely. I think, absolutely. I think, I think there are definitely people who are absolutely only attracted to opposite sex or different sex individuals.

And I think there are people who are absolutely attracted to same-sex individuals only. But I do think there are a lot of individuals who are in the middle there that, I mean, it's simply easier to live a heterosexual life. It just is that way. And honestly, if I had been given that choice when I was younger, I would have taken it. And I mean...

Now, obviously, I'm glad that I didn't have that choice. I think that there's a lot to be said for...

social change, bringing about more individuals feeling comfortable to express their identities. And honestly, there's been quite a few studies related to gender identity that have shown a huge increase in the number of individuals within younger populations that identify outside the gender binary. And so one study even found something around like 12% of younger individuals, those

I'm trying to remember the exact age range, but I believe it was under 21, identify outside of the gender binary. Interestingly enough, this study also showed that looking at older populations, it was really low. In older populations, it was only about 1 percent or less. Just to see that there is this large change really makes the need to

sort of be reflective of this in science and be reflective of what kind of research we're doing in science as we sort of gain a larger population. Yeah, absolutely.

So how many people would choose an iced caramel macchiato when it's not on the menu and they didn't even know it's possible? But just because something isn't supported as an option in certain cultures or religions or institutions doesn't mean that that thing doesn't exist somewhere and that people wouldn't prefer them. So we've been given a menu with two options for too long. There are a lot of other drinks out there and they're wonderful.

Also, I found myself at 1 a.m. researching YouTube compilations titled Gender Reveal Parties Gone Wrong, in which, like, balloons full of blue powder pop in people's eyes and confetti guns hit toddlers and rural fireworks...

It's a boy! Spark grass fires. But actually, I will be honest, the most disturbing part of all of it was just this weird consistent theme of the blue balloons getting cheers and shrieks of joy from the audience of the parties and then like

The pink cake filling getting wails of mourning from soon-to-be siblings and like disappointed shrugs from dads. Because in that split second of knowing the sex of their child, they make a lifetime of assumptions about how that future child will behave and what they will offer them based on centuries of entrenched roles that we're all supposed to play. Little did they know, these gender reveals are just a misnomer.

I mean, who knows what your kid's gender will be? Only they do. Honestly, they're just revealing their sex. Yeah, yeah. Because you can't reveal someone's gender. It's really up to them. But can you imagine if they just had like a crotch reveal party? Like it's really just a crotch reveal. That's really what it is, yeah. Yes.

That's all it is. It's like from the sonogram, we can tell you the crotch of our baby. Okay. I have some questions from listeners. Is it okay to run through some like lightning round and ask you some? Yeah. Yeah.

Is that cool? Of course. Awesome. Also, for every episode, we donate to a charity. I was thinking of maybe donating to the Marsha P. Johnson Institute. Great. I figured it was perfect for Pride Month. As you probably know, Pride started as a protest against police brutality. She was an amazing organizer, a brilliant activist. She basically saw that...

basically the white gay men were saying, "Hey, we need to be nice about this and calm and respectable." She and really the trans women of color were facing the worst of it. Even though police were raiding all gay bars, they were mostly targeting women of color, specifically trans women of color.

And so these sort of respectability politics weren't going to fly with the individual who were in the thick of it. And so when she took a stand and she really started to organize and she did this with another trans woman of color. So Sylvia Rivera was another individual that with

Marsha P. Johnson really helped to build a social justice movement. And it is thanks to their efforts, really, and the police brutality that sort of changed the nation's view of the queer community as they saw these police sort of dehumanize this population. And that really helped to sort of shift the nation as well as really just started the LGBTQ community

rights movement. And we really owe all that we have in terms of rights to these trans women of color that sort of started basically what's going on right now. And I really like the idea of supporting this group because they are specifically looking to support trans women of color and the Black trans community. So...

That's awesome. Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for telling me about that foundation. So since this is a two for one episode, we'll get to donate twice to the Marsha P. Johnson Institute. And according to their site, the P and her name stood for pay it no mind, which is what Marsha would say in response to questions about her gender.

The Marsha P. Johnson Institute protects and defends the human rights of black transgender people, and they do this by organizing, advocating, creating an intentional community to heal and developing transformative leadership and also promoting their collective power.

So they were founded both as a response to the murders of black trans women and women of color and how that's connected to their exclusion from social justice issues, namely racial, gender and reproductive justice, as well as gun violence. So a donation was made to MPJI to help keep funding their incredible community organizing and artist fellowships.

And now let's get to the second half of the episode in which I read questions from patrons who submitted them at patreon.com slash ologies, where you too can join for one hot dollar a month and submit questions before we record. And I may read off your name and a question. So let's hear what you wanted to know. We have some questions. Ashley Kaukofen asked,

Are there more than two genders? I remember in anatomy, my teacher talking about males who are XX and females who are XY. Is this a thing? But as we were talking before, gender and sex are different. Yeah, it's interesting because when we start talking about sex and people talk about chromosomes, it's actually much more complicated than that. So

On the Y chromosome, the one thing that's really sort of important is this gene called the SRY gene. And it's the testes determining factor or testes determining gene. And when a person has the SRY gene, the...

development of their gonads will shift towards developing into testes. And so this is a gene that activates downstream effects that will eventually lead to the testes, and those testes will start producing the hormones that are typical of a male.

In other areas, there are other genes that control this process. So, for example, there's the DAX1 gene. And DAX1 is a gene that is actually going to push gonadal development towards ovaries.

And so it's really interesting because people talk about like, oh yeah, X, Y, X, Y. But you have genes on other chromosomes that influence sex development. So we have the SRY gene that will lead to testes of bone, but then we also have the DAX1 gene that will lead to ovaries development. And so even if an individual does have that SRY gene,

that's going to be like, "Hey, make testes, make testes, make testes." Testes, one, two, testes. If you have this double DAX mutation, you'll have two DAX genes and it'll end up overwhelming the SRY signal. An individual with double DAX and SRY will develop ovaries.

And so it's a lot more complicated than just sort of looking at these singular chromosomes themselves. And one of the things that is also really interesting, I think, is the idea that the antigen receptor gene, which is what allows testosterone to have its effects, is actually on the X chromosome.

Oh, well, look at that. I know. And so we always think of these things as like, oh, yeah, that's the female chromosome. Oh, but it has the receptor for the testosterone molecule. Wow. I mean, that's fascinating. Yeah. It's really interesting to sort of break down these ideas. And really, a lot of things have come from...

basically, the patriarchy basically has sort of reduced the complexity of sex development such that we see male development is very active and processed, whereas becoming a female was really considered more passive. And so we'll...

Seeing that that's not true at all. Yeah. I love that. That, of course, like patriarchal science is like, well, a woman is what occurs when the biology is lazy and nothing happens by default. It takes a lot of energy to become a man. Exactly. Very, very true. So the era of assigning value or judgment to a person based on the shape of their body parts will hopefully be a thing in the past for humans forever.

Someday soon. So what is happening in the out of doors, in the forests and the deserts and the animal kingdom? There are animals that obviously have different sex chromosomes, so like in lizards and birds, but at the same time, they have these interesting traits.

differences with insects. So in whiptail lizards, they have, there's one species that is all female. And so all these female lizards actually are reproducing, but through a process called parthenogenesis, where they actually just clone themselves. This one specific species, they don't do this unless they have another female of their species perform this sort of mounting ritual that's typical of

species where there's two sexes. - Oh my God. - Yeah. And so these females, they're all females, but I mean, you would typically in science, we sort of reduce the idea of male and female to simpler ideas like you're saying chromosomes or even simply behaviors like, oh, this males will mount, females won't. But here we have an example in these lizards where these females are mounting and it's somehow in some way leading to reproduction.

Okay, I looked this up and it's the New Mexico whiptail lizard. And according to my friend, Worker Perdia, the whiptail engages in mating behavior with other females of its own species, giving rise to the common nickname, lesbian lizards. One theory is that this behavior stimulates ovulation as those who do not, do not lay eggs. So you grind in, you grab it.

Have people sketched up pride tattoos featuring these, quote, leaping lesbian lizards? They have, and they're spectacular. Now, I asked Daniel what the evolutionary benefit is of everyone carbon copying their genes, which, let's

Let's be honest. You know at least one person in your life who absolutely would just clone themselves. Because why mess with perfection? There's definitely benefits to both...

sexual reproduction and cloning. So for one, sexual reproduction, as you say, is really gonna help ensure that more genes are brought in or bad genes are gotten rid of, but that can occur when they're cloning them. But also when you're cloning, it also ensures that, like for example, if they're doing great, they're doing a great job, they don't need to change anything, the environment's stable, everything's been good, sexual reproduction can be quite costly.

And so just cloning yourself can be a lot easier. And if things are going well, you don't really need to be addressing all those other issues by changing your genetics around. And so obviously that's not always true. And so some species of wood-tailed lizards can actually switch between being this like, um,

parthenogenic animal to having sexual reproduction. Oh, that's so interesting. Parthenogenesis, side note, creepily translates to virgin birth. So maybe it's time to replace that word. I don't know. Now, one thing that is replaceable

Hormones. Take it from someone with broken ovaries who replaces their estrogen and testosterone. Now, other folks had questions about gender-affirming hormone replacement therapy or HRT, such as Katie Stomps, Tamara Mann, Joe Porfino, Ronan, Tay, Kelly Samen, Elizabeth Rich, Marissa Laws, Celestina Garcia, Rachel, Sophia Dill, and Allie Dadward von Podcast.

All wanted to know about latest research. Let's see. I have some questions about HRT, too. Catherine Gilbert asked, is my husband doomed to stab himself forever to get his hormone or is there hope for something better?

That is a great question and one I've been asking myself and honestly in my future research. I am hoping to look for new therapy options in HRT and I think it's been a really long time coming. For the transgender community, the...

Basically, the treatment has remained unchanged since its inception. Right. We've sort of added a few more things like specific molecules that can block the androgen receptor. But honestly, these don't just specifically block the androgen receptor. They can have off-target effects and...

The HRT itself really hasn't been studied outside of humans. There's about four research articles out that actually look at animal models of HRT. Oh, really? Like mammals, mostly? So what they're doing is basically looking at mice, and what they would do is...

provide HRT treatment as they would a human. So these animals were, in terms of the model, it was a masculinizing HRT model. And so these mice that were XX were treated with masculine

hormones, but they also took a look at what would happen if they introduced low levels of feminine hormones. So they rescued some of the issues that appear during HRT. So they're able to prevent bone density loss. They were able to prevent some issues related to atherosclerosis in individuals who might be at risk for heart disease.

And so these kinds of studies can do a lot to really help our understanding of transgender medicine. And that's the kind of work that I'm really hoping to do in the future. Oh, for sure. Rachel asked, with testosterone and HRT, there are some permanent irreversible changes that happen to the vocal cords. Are there any permanent body changes that happen during HRT that estrogen influences? Yeah. I mean, so one of the things about

HRT is we really don't have a lot of longitudinal studies that show us exactly what does and does not happen. And one of the reasons why I'm a really big advocate for looking in animals is because doing longitudinal studies where we are able to look in age populations of mice, it takes a much shorter time and it's much better to do it in animals. So

Mice grow up much faster than humans. And right now, we can only really look at

the transgender population to gain an understanding of that. We haven't done anything beyond that. Our understanding right now is very limited simply because it's difficult to do those kinds of studies. If we want to improve HRT, then it's going to have to take more than just looking to the transgender community to do the work in a way.

So more people working on this would be boss. So many people would say, hey, thanks for giving a shit about how HRT affects alive people. Love your trans, non-binary, and even pod dad friends with broken ovaries. I am on estrogen patches. And for a long, for a couple of years, I didn't have a doctor that asked about what my testosterone was doing. And it turned out that it was like, I had like untraceable levels, like none. Does testosterone...

What effects does it tend to have neurologically? And, you know, we got a question from Sarah Van Arstel who says estrogen makes them feel very down and depressed. They're on estrogen pills for painful periods. And when I told my doc, she said that she was surprised and looked doubtful because estrogen is the happy hormone. Like, is she right? Or do we do all these hormones affect us neurologically in really different ways?

Oh, they definitely affect us different ways. Absolutely. Like I was saying earlier, we have variations in sort of sensitivities to different molecules. And a study has even shown that the gay brain versus the straight brain in men reacts differently to testosterone.

Really? Yeah. And so when they're looking at the brain in scans and they administer testosterone, it's just a different response in terms of whether or not the individual is heterosexual or homosexual. And these kinds of differences are really sort of interesting, as you say, because it's sort of like...

every individual is going to sort of have differences in the way that these hormones interact with them. And I think that that, to me, is why I find hormones so fascinating. The receptors, we have whether or not

certain areas of the body are sensitive. We even have the ability to change hormones and different hormones. So testosterone into estrogen or testosterone into DHT, which is the more stable form that's considered more powerful in terms of having an effect on cells. And so there's just so much variation that I think

It's difficult to say any one hormone is going to be the happy hormone. Like you were talking to another doctor about serotonin and how like, oh, it's the happy drugs. We think of like SSRIs and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and how those are able to treat depression. But like serotonin does so much more than that.

And it's the same with hormones. They do so much in our body that it's really difficult to be like, oh yeah, it's going to absolutely do this with you. I'm trying to think with progesterone too. Where does progesterone fall in all of this?

Oh, yeah. So progesterone is another sort of sex steroid hormone. And it's really interesting because in men and women it has effects, but it's often really only discussed in women in terms of the reproductive cycle. Yeah. And I was actually recently looking into androgens in sports. Yeah.

Oh, right. And one of the interesting things that I found out about was that the progesterone levels and not necessarily the levels, but when you compare levels of like estrogen and testosterone and progesterone, when you're comparing those together, they sometimes have interesting effects when they're at different levels or varying levels and

Okay, we're going to get back to sports in a minute. But side note for folks on HRT or birth control pills, I'm just going to use this moment as a tiny, tiny platform to mention that progesterone can make you real depressed if you happen to be prone to that. And like in case you feel like you're losing your marbles. Well, I was going through ovarian failure and I wasn't on the right HRT. I was on a progesterone supplement that I realized later was

was making me wish I could launch my body into the vast, uninhabitable vacuum of space. So as a lot of people with uteruses know, we take all kinds of pills to make periods more regular, to not have babies when the time's not right, et cetera. And woohoo, Natalie, wow, that can affect you neuroendocrinologically.

So can not having the right amounts naturally. Also, super side note, so Daniel sent me that incredible, wonderful diagram of the gender unicorn. And guess what? Bonus, there was a second page. I never saw the second page. So I want to read it to you now because it's wonderful and helpful. And I should have read it the first time. It's amazing. Okay, so...

It gives awesome definitions. Gender identity is one's internal sense of being female, male, neither of these, both, or another gender or genders. Everyone has a gender identity, including you, it says. For transgender people, their sex assigned at birth and their own internal sense of gender identity are not the same.

Female, woman, and girl, and male, and man, and boy are also not necessarily linked to each other but are just six common gender identities. Gender expression or presentation, it says, is the physical manifestation of one's gender identity through clothing and hairstyle and voice and body shape, et cetera. So most transgender people seek to make their gender expression, how they look, match their gender identity, who they are, rather than their sex assigned at birth.

And sex assigned at birth, it says, is the assignment and classification of people as male, female, intersex, or another sex based on a combination of anatomy, hormones, and chromosomes. And I learned something new here. It says it's important that we don't simply use sex.

sex because of the vagueness of the definition of sex and its place in transphobia. So sex assigned at birth is the way to express that. And chromosomes are frequently used to determine sex from prenatal karyotyping, although not as often as genitalia. And chromosomes do not determine genitalia. So sex assigned at birth.

That's a great thing to know. And sexually attracted to is another aspect, and that is sexual orientation. And it's important to note, it says that sexual and romantic or emotional attraction can be from a variety of factors, including but not limited to gender identity, gender expression or presentation, and sex assigned at birth.

And then, of course, on the gender unicorn, there's also romantically and emotionally attracted to and romantic and emotional orientation. It says it's important to note that sexual and romantic or emotional attraction can be from a variety of factors, including but not limited to gender identity, gender expression and presentation, and sex assigned at birth.

Ah, so those are such good things to know and an even better and whole representation of the gender unicorn. So thank you, Daniel, for your very kind and gentle email saying, did you see the second page?

An angel. Here on Earth, they are. Also, when we originally were set to record this episode, I had to postpone a few days because it was during the time of curfews being imposed in L.A., and I had missed going to the pharmacy several days in a row because they closed early to pick up my medications. And let's just say my brain just—

opted instead to cry. We just chalked it up to a mental health day and rain checked and Dr. Daniel was so, so understanding. Some days your brain just needs a timeout, which is very clunky segue back to athletics, which is what I promised at the top of this aside. Okay. Courtney Ross asked a question, how can science play a role in better addressing the divisions in sports over trans athletes? And Megan C would love to hear your take on this too.

Yeah, you know, I really find it interesting that we focus so heavily on testosterone. It's just one aspect sort of of this signaling cascade that obviously different aspects of the hormone system, like the receptors and what genes are expressed and all those kinds of things, they can really...

sort of affect that. So it's not just testosterone that affects sports. There are growth hormones and estrogen and thyroid hormones and cortisol. They're all ingredients in the juicy ambrosia that is our mind and body.

Oh, but Chris Bauman and Schmitty Thompson both said that they're non-binary. But in Chris Bauman's words, what does that mean with my brain chemicals? It almost feels like I got a middle amount of hormones, but I don't know how that would be. So what about us neither gender peeps? I honestly feel sort of like either. I got...

none at specific times or I've got just like all of them all at the time. For me, it's been a similar question. I think what it really comes down to is just that there's variation. When it comes to science and the research that's coming out regarding the gendered queer brain or the gendered brain or sexual orientation in the brain,

we as queer individuals should be able to simply look at them and say, hey, yeah, I really identify with that. Or, you know, that really doesn't sound like me. And honestly, in my opinion, I believe that we queer individuals probably have a pretty good idea about what's going on and should honestly trust ourselves and feel, I often say that like,

no science is needed to affirm queer experiences simply because we don't

necessarily need evidence to believe what people are telling us. Or we need scientific evidence to believe what people are telling us. Okay, again, that new 2024 study is titled Functional Brain Networks Are Associated with Both Sex and Gender in Children, which is a giant breakthrough in understanding these biological as well as cultural issues. And so if a genderqueer individual hears something about like, oh, yeah,

During certain periods of development, you usually have low levels of hormones, but some individuals have high levels and they're like, "Hey, that's something that I think might be related to what happened to me." It's like, absolutely, yeah. That's a really awesome exploration of your identity, in my opinion. I honestly do feel like that's a big choice though for each individual.

One of the things I often don't like is how scientists often sort of force this idea of biologically driven identities onto individuals. And so one of the things that really I struggled with in my own field is sort of this idea of the transgender typology, which was a notion that was developed a long time ago, sort of just

assigning individuals that are transgender based on their biology and saying like, "Oh, so we know this biological development will lead to this transgender individual." We know obviously now that there's variation. Honestly, even if those individuals at the time didn't intend to say there were only two types,

they were the heads of the field. When other individuals who are not experts were reading that, obviously they're going to be like, "Oh, there's only two types." It's really frustrating because then I feel like a lot of queer individuals

don't want to connect to science for those reasons. - Right. - And I understand that completely. And so I think it's really beautiful for any queer individual to look at spirituality or religion or science to help them conceptualize and understand their identities. And I really do believe that

As I say, queer people understand themselves. And if they feel that some science aspect jives with them, then yeah, definitely. But if something doesn't, then no, don't let that guide your thinking or change your thinking if that's not what you identify with. Right. That's excellent. Don't need someone else's paper necessarily to tell you that what you feel is right or wrong. Yeah.

Felix had a great question. They say, I'm a non-binary trans guy and so excited about this episode. There is a belief that beginning testosterone hormone replacement therapy makes a person angrier and or more violent. Is this flim flam? Many trans guys say this isn't the case. Is the anger, et cetera, just because you're going through puberty? Is it because of social expectations of men? Any thoughts on it?

Yeah, I mean, several studies have shown that that's not true. So yeah, it's not true that testosterone is going to lead to increased aggression. But there is something true to the sense of sort of suddenly having changes in hormones causing alterations in behavior. And...

and honestly, like you're talking about, it's, it's one of those things where it's like a mental health that, um, a mental health day that you might have to take simply because you're introducing your body to a whole new environment. Well,

And sometimes it's going to react in a weird way. And so if someone is saying like, oh, look at this example, this individual is on T and they're acting this way, it's most likely that. But again, it all comes down to individuality. So if someone is saying like, hey, this testosterone is making me feel more aggressive than I would believe them.

At the same time, I would never say that testosterone does make people more aggressive because when we look at the research in general, it just isn't true.

Right. Okay, so I had mentioned that my hormone factories have been shuttered, just cobwebs strewn and rusted into premature antiquity. And yes, of course, I have a very cute estrogen patch stuck to my ass at all times. But also, that means I get to rub medical-grade testosterone cream into my sexy, crepey skin when I remember to use it.

That's so interesting. Probably consistency with hormones is probably really important, says the person who's not consistent enough. No, I mean, our hormones vary so much, both across the day and across our lives. Just testosterone itself can vary from the morning to night. And we see that these kinds of variations vary.

are occurring in men and women and all individuals, all people who have hormones. When we have these variations occurring, these big changes, we don't really understand them all too much. How does this work? Right. Like I said, we focus on testosterone level so much, but even when we're thinking about testosterone level,

We don't know exactly why they're shifting so much and what influence these shifts have on, for example, say, sports and testosterone. Like if you're working out during a time of the day when your testosterone is lowest, like what does that mean? Yeah.

This is making me realize, though, I should definitely be more consistent, at least to give my body like a finding. Like I there are days when I'm like, oh, I haven't used my testosterone cream in like three days. What am I doing? And I'm like, I'm probably putting my brain through.

a little bit of you are inconsistent but it's good to know that it just fluctuates in general yeah and keeping it keeping it is keeping it on in equilibrium and that's really what the hormones are doing is keeping you in equilibrium and so giving it the chance to do that is what's most important and if we're naturally varying so much then then it's

It's important that we understand what's going on before we make any big assumptions. Yeah.

Um, and Evan, Evan Jude had a great question, trans non-binary person here. And, um, and they say they're bipolar and they have been on a low dose of tea for about a year and a half. And despite being already properly medicated and under psychiatric supervision, I've noticed that my moods are way more stable while on tea. Emotional regulation is so much easier for me. And I was actually able to just

decrease one of my medications. So I know that being on tea relieves some dysphoria, which contributes to less depression, but I know my mind well enough to know that that isn't the whole of it. And it definitely feels like a drop in my estrogen levels has mellowed me out. And they've heard that other bipolar trans folks share similar experiences. Is there any basis to that, to something like bipolar and hormone? Yeah.

You know, that's really interesting. And I love that this individual is finding that testosterone is really helping them in that way. It's a lot of mental health issues are thought to be related to hormones, actually. So, jewels, as they're going through puberty, oftentimes those are periods of development when...

mental health disorders might actually appear. Wow. It's thought that it is related to these hormone changes. I do think there is something to be said within the transgender community in that simply taking these hormones and being able to take them themselves is somewhat of a therapy in of itself. Absolutely. Yeah.

I love how I had just become acquainted with Daniel an hour or so before, but they're so warm and smart and non-judgy and made me feel so comfortable about talking about neuroendocrinological issues, such as, for example, my busted ovaries and my glitchy anxiety. And one way that they foster that is by being so authentically themselves and candid, like sharing their own health journey. So,

I have bipolar disorder too and I have ADHD. When I did come out as genderqueer, I found that being authentic allowed me to really feel equipped to tackle the expectations that were put on me in a way. When I was identifying as a man,

it stressed me out to feel like I needed to respond in a way typical of a man, if that makes sense. - Yes, absolutely. - And I gave myself the freedom to identify as genderqueer and see myself as genderqueer in these situations. I felt more equipped and empowered to sort of handle these barriers, conceptualize them in a way that I could address, I could handle, I could handle. - Yeah.

And that authenticity and that freedom of authenticity is kind of like an anxiolytic in and of itself, I imagine. I have anxiety disorder. My therapist once said that a lot of anxiety can come from acting one way but feeling another. And that pull and that frustration of feeling the need to do something or say something that is inauthentic, that is what...

can cause a lot of anxiety if you're, you know, suppressing frustration because you're not supposed to act frustrated. That can cause... So I can only imagine that on the scale of your entire identity in a society that is...

can be oftentimes not understanding at best and hostile at worst, you know? Yeah. And I oftentimes feel like science doesn't necessarily help. I've been thinking, I've been conceptualizing it recently, sort of the idea of like, as a queer person trying to interact with science, we're often given these limited opportunities

options of our experiences. And so if you've been getting anything on email from the Trump administration or anything on Facebook, sometimes they have these like quizzes where they're like, how would you rate the president's

reaction to blah, blah, blah. And the options they give you are like, a perfect B, not as perfect. See the bare minimum for perfection D other. And he was like, Oh my goodness. My experience is not reflected in this quiz. That's exactly, not exactly, but similar to what it feels like when you're trying to interact with science as a gender queer person. You're like, my experience is not reflected here. Yeah. Oh God. That's hilarious. Um,

You know, a ton of people had questions about dysphoria. Okay, quick aside. What is dysphoria? Well, it can feel different at different ages for different people, but it boils down to a discomfort or a distress when embodying the gender assigned to you at birth and being comfortable only when in the role of your preferred or your true gender identity, which may include also non-binary.

And when experts say discomfort, that's kind of a mild expression. Adults with gender dysphoria can feel stressed out and isolated, depressed at much higher rates than folks who are cisgender. And those are statistics that are staggering and heartbreaking. And experts note that the rigidity of social norms, air quotes, and gender roles contributes a lot to that. So transphobia kills. Yeah.

Plainly put, this stuff is important for everyone to know and to care about. And there are so many trans and non-binary and LGBTQ oligites, bisexual folks, asexual friends, aromantic friends, I see you, and inclusion and a freedom to be yourself really, really matters. But getting back to dysphoria, patrons had questions such as Sophia Dill, Matthew Sparks, Seema G, George Farrar, and first-time question asker Jules Hepp, who've

who phrased it. Any thoughts on the brain and gender dysphoria? It does me a bamboozle every time. Is there something hormonally happening when it comes to dysphoria? Does that affect serotonin? Does that affect anxiety levels? And also, do we know exactly kind of chemically where that comes from? Yeah, so that's a good question. So I think that...

Personally, I see gender as something that is somewhat intrinsic to an individual. So there are a lot of individuals who sort of conceptualize development as pathways. And to me, your gender is the pathway that is most easiest for you to travel along. And it sort of becomes like a habit over time that you travel along that pathway. And so as you are developing your gender identity, uh,

If it isn't sort of in the same direction as, for example, your body or how society is interacting with you, then it can make you feel very much like dysphoric. And that's what sort of brings about that dysphoria. And in terms of the body, there's been some research that shows how...

there's associative areas in your brain, sort of associative areas that connect who you are to your body. And in some trans individuals, it's been shown that there's weaker connections between these areas. And there are different ways you can sort of conceptualize this and sort of conceptualize in a way that I think is very positive is to say that

the brains of trans individuals are working correctly, showing that there is an incongruence between their gender identity and what their bodies are, how society interacts with them. Really? Yeah. Courtney Ryan said, question from their non-binary partner, yeah, why do we feel dysphoria in some parts of our bodies but not others? Yeah.

And this person's partner says like, I know I'm not a woman and I hate my boobs, but I'm cool with my hips and butts. Why did I read that as butts plural? Can you imagine having a double decker butt, like four butt cheeks? That would rule. Anyway, they said, hate the boobs, but... Or my hips and butt, like what's going on in our brains that makes that happen. Do you think that those pathways might be kind of stronger to certain parts of the body in that way?

Oh, no, absolutely. Honestly, I feel somewhat similar about certain things. So way...

When we talk about the brain, like I was saying earlier, different parts of it develop at different times. And like I was saying, sort of taking it back on my PI's work, Dr. Jordan, and how there's different sensitivities and different ways that you can sort of tackle the problem. Yeah, and so when you are developing as an individual, you're...

For example, your association with your body might be stronger at a certain point of development than it was at other points. So that when fat deposition was occurring in the hips and butt, it was like, oh yeah, let's feel happy about this. But then as soon as fat was like, let's go here to the chest.

Things got a little bit, things during that debonair period were like, oh, no, no, no, we don't want this. And I mean, like I said before, the variation aspect is what's most important. And honestly, we just don't know that much about it.

Again, more research in this area is needed. How exciting is this? It's a new frontier of science and medicine and identity and sexuality and freedom from gender roles that deep down nobody likes. When I was six, I dressed up of my own volition as Snake Plissken from Escape from New York. It was one of the best days of my life. And cis men, how annoying is it that our society says you're just not allowed to wear a skirt or

or lip gloss. Skirts are so comfortable and airy and fun to swish in. And lip gloss is hydrating and oftentimes very delicious. Expectations of our so-called gender norms are just harmful, soggy, old garbage. Last listener question. Travis Brooks says, my sister is trans and waited until her mid-30s to come out about it. Is there anything...

Travis, this listener can do as a parent to know if my child is trans sooner so that he or she doesn't have to struggle for as long? The advice I'd give, I guess, is to make sure that people have the power to identify. The power to live authentically in a way. So if you give your child the opportunity to express themselves in a way that is most comfortable for them,

then they should feel comfortable saying what their gender identity is. And so you create that situation where your child feels comfortable discussing gender, discussing these aspects of their identity without fear. And when they

when their identity solidifies, and that can happen really early, that can happen as early as five years old, then that will ensure that they're comfortable with voicing that. But there's no real way to determine whether or not your child

is one gender or the other, it's something that they have to identify and express. But the best way to ensure that they're able to do that is to make sure that they feel safe doing so. So just always kind of have an open place for conversation and conversation.

expression. Yeah. And I think actively discussing topics like gender diversity and, you know, there's the show called Steven Universe that I absolutely love because it really does a great job of showing gender diversity and it's a kid's show. So it's a pretty rare thing. Yeah. What is it called again?

Steven Universe. Steven Universe. Okay, I'm going to look that up. I was just going to ask if there are any movies that you feel like are getting it right. Oh, yeah, definitely. Rebecca Sugar is the producer and they are amazing. Oh, that's great. I want to look that up.

Okay, I looked it up and it's magic. It's a world of gemstone humanoid alien superheroes who bend gender roles and are strong and loving. And it also features a proposal that was more thrilling than anything you have seen on The Trash Bachelor. Sapphire. What? Marry you. Yeah, this way we can be together even when we're apart. This time being garnet will be our decision. What do you say? Okay.

Of course. So yes, Steven Universe, on point. And Daniel also emailed me a follow-up note about making sure that the kiddos in your life feel free to express themselves. And if anyone wants to learn more about supporting transgender children, they should seek out information put out by transgender individuals or trans-led organizations.

And why that's important is that research shows that self-harming behavior is less common among trans folks who said that their family ties had remained strong after they came out. Transgender women of color in particular face higher rates of homicide, homelessness, and incarceration. And in a lot of regions, there just are not legal protections for people based on gender expression and identity. And it's

June 2020. And in the U.S., we're still fighting rollbacks of protections to LGBTQ folks in healthcare. It's boggling. Oh boy, it's 2024 now. And well...

Vote and please stand up for the populations who are threatened by recent impacts to reproductive health rights and gender affirming care, especially if you're in the same country as me. And since this episode, also, I should note that I've gotten a full on removal of all of my reproductive parts.

I've got a hysterectomy. You can see the Ali's mystery surgery from March 2024. And let me tell you, I'm thankful I can get hormones that my body can't make, which would be gender affirming. More in a second after another quick break from sponsors so that we can make a few donations for this episode. BRB.

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lab work or emails or fighting bigotry? I can't. I mean, this is a question I ask every episode, but it seems like a very not smart question to ask at the moment. But... No, it's a good question, I think, especially for individuals who often have to face barriers. Yeah. I think one of the most difficult things about my field is seeing scientists complain when the transgender community speaks out against them. Mm-hmm.

And so it's sort of this constant thing where people are like, like, oh, are we allowed to do research on the transgender community? And I'm like, yes, if you listen to them. And I just don't understand because it feels like every time the transgender community says, hey, wait, this research puts us in a negative light.

And researchers are like, oh, gosh, I guess I can't research you. It's such a childish reaction to me. Instead of being like, oh, OK, wait, how can we fix it so that we can do research that you won't be upset about? They're just like, oh, I guess we can't do research, but we're going to do it anyway and ignore you again. Yeah.

Right. Right. And I continually see these articles by scientists being like, we should allow to research the community. And obviously there are individuals within the transgender community that are getting it wrong and they're not necessarily being helpful in terms of being like, hey, this kind of research is not okay and this kind of research is. But at the same time, it's like,

you could easily alter your methods so that you're including members of the transgender community in the studies and simply relying on your own conceptualization and the wording that you would use and your own idea of what the transgender experience is. For sure. When you were saying like some types of research is just not cool the way they've gone about it or their methods and others is like,

consider it and, and, um, yeah. So one example is the idea of rapid onset gender dysphoria. And so this is an idea that came out of a study that was done on a population of parents who were trying to sort of understand their children's

coming out as a specific gender identity. So these parents were like, oh goodness, yeah, their other friend and this friend and this friend, they all know each other and are suddenly identifying as genderqueer or transgender or expressing that they have gender dysphoria. And so they were suggesting that it was sort of the social contagion. Mm-hmm.

is the social contagion theory that was being put forth. And the transgender community quickly rose up and was like, no, that's bullocks. Like, this is probably what's happening. Remember that you were just looking at parents. You weren't actually talking to trans people. There's a lot more variation than what you're suggesting here. And really the...

researchers came back and they were just like, well, we think this is a phenomenon worth discussing. And it's like, why not just come back and be like, okay, what should we do? Right. It's like, it would be the simplest thing in the world, but they just, they simply can't bring themselves, I think, to put transgender individuals on the same level as them. Right. And I think that that seems like such a huge barrier is

When people put their defensiveness before inclusion, when people put their need to be on the right side of things before the feelings of the people that they're including or that they should be including. And I think that there's in the most malignant forms of...

of discrimination against it is, you know, people who make light of pronouns or people who express their own frustration with not being educated enough or people express frustration because they're ignorant because they haven't been exposed to or taught or they haven't sought out the right, you know, the inclusive information. And I think a lot of people focus on being

that they were caught doing it wrong instead of understanding that it's how right they could get it. Like,

they're focusing on their bad feelings if they mess up instead of like how good they can make people feel just by including them, you know? Absolutely. And I think, I think too, that there's a sort of amount of like pride that scientists have with their work. Like, oh, I've created this new knowledge. And when someone sort of is like, that's horrible, you're wrong. You're talking about, I think a lot of scientists sort of bulk at that and really feel like,

Like, oh, well, I am the expert, but no, transgender people are the experts on their experiences. Right. Absolutely. So I know I just want to pipe up and thank all of the oligites who have messaged me over the years and told me what it means to hear themselves acknowledged here.

Thank you.

If you want to be an ally or an accomplice to any marginalized group, stop thinking, I'll get canceled if I do it wrong. That's not it at all. You will make so many people happy when you understand how good it feels to be included. And when you switch to that motivator, it feels so pure and so expansive. It's

genuinely so rewarding. So operating from a place of love for each other and not fear is the whole name of the game. And even if you didn't know better on something or you messed up, think of anyone who corrects you as giving you an upgrade to your operating system, making you even better than you were the day before. Learning about people is just one of my favorite things. And thank you to everyone who has spent your energy on the emotional labor of teaching others. We are grateful for that, for that.

Speaking of favorite things, I know this is going to be hard, but your favorite thing about neuroendocrinology? Neuroendocrinology. Yes. Neuroendocrinology. So many syllables. What is your favorite thing about what you do? Honestly, I really...

There are times when I can go to posters at conferences and I just get goosebumps because I find what they're doing so interesting. And honestly, it's almost always like really basic things. And one of my favorites was learning about

the pineal gland. Oh, yeah. And so you actually had, when you were talking about the neurochemist, about the lizard brain, quote-unquote. Yes. And I love that they were like, no, no, no, it's not a lizard brain because the lizard brain is really cool in and of itself. And so if you remember, they talked about how the cortex in the lizard is very small. So if we do...

The lizards do have a cortex, but it's much more reduced. And on top of their cortex is this little pineal gland. And it is something that was helping them with their...

circadian rhythm. So it releases hormones based on the time of day. So when the pineal gland is on top of the cortex, there's actually enough light that gets through the thin brain of these lizards that it's actually able to detect light.

and signals. In fact, some lizards have what's called a pineal eye, which is like this little thin area of the bone and sort of an opening where the pineal gland can be directly exposed to the ambient light. In other animals like fish, they have a stalk that allows the pineal gland to get to a place where it can sense light. I find it really interesting because this hormone gland

had to switch how it worked because as our cortex developed, like I said, it sits on the top of the cortex in lizards. As the cortex got bigger, so like in humans, it squished that pineal gland all the way into the center of our brains. And so instead of being able to directly see through a pineal eye or through a thin skull, we actually tell our pineal gland information through our retina.

Oh, wow. Cool evolution that happened with this hormone secreting organ that relates to lizards, my favorite things, to the evolution of the brain. I just, I don't know why I find that story so fascinating. And I just, it just, I find it so cool. So just getting to learn how the brain works together.

as your job, does that ever feel kind of surreal? Like I get to, it's my job to ask questions about the brain. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It still feels somewhat surreal that I'm a doctor. Yeah. I love, I love that as soon as they're like, okay, doctor, you're like, everyone call me doctor. Yes. That gender neutral honorific. Yes, please. Yeah.

It's the best. Oh my gosh. This has been just so awesome talking to you. Thank you so much for talking to me for so long. I'm sorry I had so many questions. Oh no, you're fine. This was great. It's been a great respite from screaming children. Tell your partner, thank you so much for letting me borrow you for this long. Will do. Thank you.

So as always, ask smart neuroscientists earnest questions because they know a whole boatload about our brains. And you can follow Dr. Daniel Pfau at endoqueer, K-W-E-E-R, on Twitter. And you can see more about the Marsha P. Johnson Institute at marshap.org. There are links to all those as well as to the sponsors in the show notes. We are etologies on endoqueer.

as it's now called in 2024, and on Instagram. I'm Allie Ward with one L on both. There will be more links up at allieward.com slash ologies slash neuroendocrinology encore. We'll link that right in the show notes so you don't have to remember that or write it down. Also, we now have a whole new show called Smologies, which are kid-friendly, swear-free versions up wherever you get your podcasts. Look for a logo that's kind of a sage green color with

some colorful new illustrations. So find Smologies and subscribe to those. Spread the word. Ologies merch is available at ologiesmerch.com. Thank you, Aaron Campbell-Talbert, for adminning the Ologies Podcast Facebook group, which is all cotton candy and rainbows.

Thank you to Emily White and Aveline Malick for making transcripts. Thank you to scheduling producer Noelle Dilworth. Susan Hale is our managing director. Kelly Dwyer updates the website. Editing this episode was Jared Sleeper of Mindjam Media, Stephen Ray Morris.

Jake Chafee and Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio, a wonderful gaggle of friends and editors. And the theme music was written and performed by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, I'm going to tell you a secret. It's 2024 me, so I got a new one. So this week, I was up in Tahoe. I was at my friend Zeke and Kelly's wedding. Oh, never cried so much at a wedding. Never laughed so much. It was so

such a good one. They also had like a good wedding DJ and people who were playing along on drums and saxophone live. So it was like, what a lovely hybrid. Anyway, when I got married, which I have since this episode first came out, I remember some friends high-fiving me as I walked down the aisle right after we said our vows and all that stuff. And as Zeke walked past me

As he's coming back from the aisle, they just did their, you know, big, we now announce you, husband, wife, whatever. I go to like give him a high five. He doesn't see me and just like leaves me hanging. Right? It's like the videographer passes. So I'm really hoping that when they cut together their wedding video, there's not like me popping up.

For like, oh, never mind. Because it was, I was like, I just shouldn't have done that. I should have made eye contact. So do it or don't do it. Either way, you're beautiful. I hope that whomever you love, you can love freely. And if you don't want to be in a romantic relationship, that is fine also. You're beautiful. Be who you are. You matter. Trans lives matter. Your voice matters. Thanks for listening. Okay, bye-bye. Hackadermatology. Homeology. Cryptozoology. Littology. Technology.

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