"Greta Gerwig"
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Okay, guys, we're going to do this next podcast from our pool. So do you have your towels and your sunblock? I got the floaties. Wait, Sean, you're supposed to be wearing... No trunks? Yeah. No, I don't want any tan lines. I don't want anything. Okay, man, well, this is not... Will, why are you wearing a two-piece? Because I want to cover my meats and cheeses. That's why. Ooh, this is going to make a big splash this week. Wonderful, Sean. Thank you. Here comes Smartless, everyone. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Hey gang. Hey Jason. Will, why do you have green screen behind you? Are we doing an animation episode today? Yeah, we're going to do a full, because I just wanted people to feel free to do whatever they want behind me.

Oh. That's been happening for years. So we can put in like, why is that there? I got to do a junket this afternoon. Will you put like a background behind you, like an image? Yeah. And what would that image be? It's of an ice cream truck. Oh, so it's a drama? I have the same one. Is it like a fourth quarter prestige film? It's the Sean Hayes story.

That's what you have the junket about? The history of ice cream. So there's a lick it joke in there somewhere? No. But no, no, no. It's for Twisted Metal. So there's the big ice cream, you know, Sweet Tooth is my character. Oh, yeah. That's your new nickname. Sweet Tooth. Now, do they send you the green or do they ask you to go to a hobby shop and get a nice...

They sent me the green in this light, this big bright light that you see. Don't make like you don't know what a ring light is. I think they're all over your house. I've never had one. That's not true. I had one before, but I haven't used one since pandemic. Speaking of pandemic, Sean, what are you eating? Cheez-Its. Cheez-Its. But they're white cheddar Cheez-Its. Am I wrong? Oh, they looked white. Have you had the white cheddar Cheez-Its? Is there such a thing? No, are they good?

I don't know. Is there such thing? I just don't know. Asking for a friend. You know me. Asking for a friend. If you have them, please send them. I do want to just do another shout out to our friends at Chex Mix slash Bugles. That's

Did you guys get like a big box of that? Oh, my God. I had the Cool Ranch. Was it Cool Ranch Bugles? They were. But they sent everything, Funyuns and everything. You know what? I'm going to stop talking. Because my instinct right there was like, oh, I would never eat that stuff because I'd hold water in my face for five years. I'm not going to do it anymore. Because people now are coming up to me after the doc is under the, hey, man, so sorry to hear about your food disorder, your food disorder.

That's not true. Yeah. And I said, well, you know, a lot of it's true, but comedy kind of lives in the exaggeration. And so I'm leaning into it and, you know, kind of playing my role. Yeah, just for the record, we've all seen you eat candy and other stuff. Yeah, I eat like a fucking shit pig most of the time. Not most of the time, but when I want it, I have it.

It should be noted because I'm often at the sharp edge of that point that is puncturing you. I have seen you devour more shit than anybody I know. Not as much as Sean. I love giving you because what happens is, as you say, that there's a larger person inside of you waiting to get out. Two or three of them.

Right, and so you're trying not to feed the beast as much as you can, as hard as you can. If you unzip me, you'd find three after-school specials of teenagers that wake up in crowns. I brought it before. Do you remember when we were up at Pebble and you had an off week? And we would sit down and they'd go, this is my favorite, they'd go,

As soon as we sat down, not even the way somebody would go, "Hey, can we start you off with some ice water?" You'd go, "Yeah, and if you got a basket of bread back there?" -We'd be like, "Hey, man." -That's right. Remember that restaurant? She was like immediately-- Yeah, and I looked at you like, "Who are you?" They were still handing out the menus. Yeah.

You were at valet. I was at, I went to a restaurant. We don't have bread in the house. I got super, super, super, super stoned with Raina, my friend Raina. This is years and years ago. We were in New York. I was high as a kite and I was starving. We walked down the street. We walk into a restaurant and the maitre d' goes, how many? And I go, Caesar salad. Not even joking. Yeah.

I almost just did it. I swear to God, I wasn't even joking. And Reina grabs my arm. I'm like, what? I go, I just wanted to start off like so before we sit down. It's the Caesars. They're waiting.

I do like a Caesar salad mixed at the table. I think there's something very, very refined about that. Caesar salad mixed at the table. Get your salad chopped in the kitchen so they bring it to you chopped. I do like my dressing on the side. That doesn't give me food issues, does it? I just think that people overdress salads. Yeah, I agree. I don't want, you know.

That's too soggy. And it should be noted that in a town, and by town I mean L.A., in a town where a lot of people, when they get burgers or they get stuff, they're all like, no bread, can I get that wrapped in lettuce or whatever. Every time on the off weeks, on Sunday nights when we do burgers...

Jason always gets full bun and he has at least two burgers. No, I do the single. I do the single. Watch it. You've had two burgers. I've seen you do two burgers. Oh, two burgers. No, but not double patty. No, I do double patty. I do two burgers. Well, you have... I do one patty per burger because that's proper ratio with the bread, right? That's right. Only a fool would have double meat. It's too much meat. Tell that to the Big Mac. Well, he's got another piece of bread in there. He does have a piece of bread in there, yeah. It is. Yeah.

Yeah, so cool at Big Mac. He hates the bread. He knows what he's doing. All right, all right. So, where do you guys get a load of this guest? Wait, wait, wait, wait. I just wanted to show you guys. Yeah, Sean, I saw you were playing with...

Wait, but look, it's all our faces are on this Rubik's Cube. It's the Rubik's Cube with our faces. Isn't that cool? The world's smartest game for the world's dumbest podcast hosts. We don't know how this all happened, but we're not going to question it too much. Here's the deal. The smartest toy of all time just got smart-less.

guys so in celebration of the smartless podcast third year anniversary we have partnered with rubik's cube to make a limited edition limited quantity smartless rubik's cube yeah yeah yeah i've always wanted to be one of those people that can solve it in like three seconds you ever see those guys wait can you do that oh yeah i've seen that but there's a there's a way to do it i can't

Jay, they mix it up and then they solve it in three seconds. The kid just set a new record last week or something. Really? He looks at it and he goes, and he goes, and he goes,

And puts it down. Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. It's fucking bonkers. It's amazing. And by the way, it's a little bit of a cheat, though, because you can see our faces. You just line our faces up. Oh, yeah. It still takes some skills. We're not smart enough to do it. But, listener, if you're smart enough to do it, or you want to try to get smart enough to do it, go ahead over there to that merch store, you know, that smartless shop, and buy one before they're all gone.

Do we need to tell them? What is it? It's www.shopsmartlist.com. Anyway, Jay, sorry we interrupted. Yes, I apologize. I apologize to our guest. Hey, guys. I don't know if you like if you guys – wait, hang on a second. We're going to start back to one. Hey, guys. Start from hey, guys.

Hey, guys. I don't know. Tighten up, mystery guests. Here we come. I don't know if you guys like folks... Hey, guys. Hey, guys. I don't know if you like folks with talent. People who... God damn it. Let's just reload. Hey, guys. Here we come. Here we come. I don't know if you guys like folks with talent, period, but...

That would be a comma. I don't know why I write these. Why do I write? I should just freestyle it like Willie. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. I don't know if you guys like folks with talent, people who are funny, smart. This sounds insincere, but it is sincere, mystery guest. I don't know if you guys like folks with talent. Comma. People who are funny, smart, charismatic. I don't take them until after four. Funny, smart, charismatic, and sparkly.

I do. So I've invited one to join. You wrote, I do?

I do, comma. So I've invited one to join us today. She's not yet 40, but she's already written nine movies, directed four of them, starred in four of them, gotten three Academy Award nominations for them, and I'll bet there's more of those coming for her new one. She was born in Sacramento but lives in Brooklyn. She was interested in dance but was competitive in fencing, almost pursued musical theater but instead got a degree in philosophy from Barnard Carle at college, despite the destructive and reckless influence of dorm mate Kate McKinnon.

Please welcome Miss Greta Gerwig. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Pretty good, right? That was amazing.

That was amazing. It was great. Also, I'm so nervous behind my little sheet of paper. I'm nervous. Why? Don't be nervous. Oh, my God. We're hard-hitting journalists with a lot of research. Yeah. Okay? And we're going to bring the hard-hitting questions. You can see we take our craft very seriously. Get ready. I'm ready. Greta Gerwig, it's so nice to meet you. Yeah, great to have you. It's so nice to meet you, too. And I have to confess...

I have a circle light behind me, which I didn't even know existed. You're allowed to have ring lights. And they sent one to me. They sent one. That's what happened to me, Greta. Is that a baby crib off to the side there? Yes, yes, that's a baby crib. That's where Noah sleeps. You know, Sean, they drop the baby. They just say crib.

- Yeah. - Okay. - Don't say baby crib. Everybody knows when you say crib that you're talking about a twerk. - Well, some people might think it's your house. - No. Now Greta's got two baby boys. - Yeah, and a stepson who's 13. - Got it. - Wow. - So you're swimming in testosterone over there. - That's why I made Barbie.

No, it's great, though. I never, I actually, having a bunch of boys around is so fun. Oh, and I apologize, you can hear sirens. Are you currently under indictment? Are you, no? So you're in Manhattan. You have two sons and a fun partner.

-Yes. -Yes. We call Noah fun, right? Yes, he's fun. And you've got a really fun movie coming out. God, I love the trailers on this thing. -I know me too. -Thank you. All right, we're gonna get to that. Where are we gonna get started here? Let's see what kind of hard-hitting question I've got here. Let's go back to the beginning. I wanna know. I don't-- I sadly don't know enough about you yet. Ask me questions, I'll share the answer. We're so bad at this that we probably won't find out more 'cause we'll end up talking about ourselves. But what--

I want to know, like, from when you start, when you were a kid, what were you drawn to most, the acting or the writing? Because you're such a brilliant writer. Were you drawn to writing right away as a kid? Like, were you in, like, creative arts class or something? Well, I didn't... I was sort of drawn to the whole thing of it. Like, I did grow up in Sacramento, and there was a really healthy and vibrant community theater scene there. So I spent a lot of...

going to community theater and participating in community theater because if you liked it, that's sort of the way in. And now don't you look back on the shows that you've done in community theater and be like, you know, they're great and great experience, but it's like high school. No, but it was also like sort of the purest,

art, I think, I've ever done. Like, it's the most, you know, I don't know, there's something like really, it's like everybody has like a secret sort of like Clark Kent Superman identity, like a substitute teacher might in the night do Tennessee Williams for all you know. And I, there was...

There's something about that that I was always like, I love it. Yeah. I used to play auditions for piano for auditions for community theater shows. And you're right. You'd get it was just like waiting for government. It's like people like moms and dads and dentists and everybody would come in. You didn't see Joseph and his Technicolor coat in Sacramento because Jessica Chastain saw that in Sacramento. Sure.

She did? Oh, that's right. I think she saw it at the Walnut Creek Theater, which was a little outside. But I did see, but fun fact, I saw Jessica Chastain in community theater when she was like 15 or 16. No way. Yeah, and I saw her in You Can't Take It With You at the Chautauqua Theater Company. No way. Yeah, and she played the ballerina in You Can't Take It With You. Yeah, I was in You Can't Take It With You in high school and had one line.

And I was a G-man, and it was, you were right, Chief, they have enough gunpowder down there to blow up the whole town. That was my only line. Right. I think you can take it with you later in high school. I'd love to get one more take on that, Sean. Let's just have fun with it. Here we go. Still rolling? You're right, Chief, they have enough gunpowder down there to blow up the whole town. Got it. Thank you. Check it.

Sorry for that. That's cool. So what were you... So when you can't take it with you, what else? Yeah, I think I played... Is this... It's been a minute since I've seen the play. Is there a Russian woman? Yes. Because I have a memory of being Russian. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah. It's a bold choice if there wasn't. Yes. But so it was going to start with... It did start with acting, and then when did it go to writing? Well, I was always writing, but I didn't really have...

I didn't know, there wasn't really an outlet for, in terms of like my high school and everything, there wasn't like, you know, and here are the plays our students have written, but they did let you do like, I wrote all the homecoming sketches for homecoming rallies. Like that was my way of like,

being sort of a writer. And then it wasn't until actually I got to college at Barnard that I was taking an acting class and I was writing scenes and I wrote my own monologue to audition and they were like, that's not, you're not meant to do that.

And I was like, oh. And then they said, one of the teachers who was great was like, I think you want to take a playwriting class. And then I started taking playwriting in college and that was like an instant love. At what point in Sacramento or what got you excited to leave Sacramento? Like, did you know when you were, you're like, I'm limited here. I know there's only a certain...

you know, place I can go here? Well, I had, I, my dad actually had one of his best friends was a, um, a math professor at Columbia. And we went to New York city when I was five and I had a, just a really strong memory of, um, waiting for like rush tickets for Broadway plays. And I saw, um, I saw like,

and Gypsy and I saw Jerry Orbach in 42nd Street and all the rush tickets you'd be sitting in the front row and looking sort of straight up and I remember I was like

I gotta get back to Broadway. That was sort of what I felt. I just was like, like it never in my life. And it was 89. So I also think it was like, there were still kind of like the neon strip bars in 42nd streets and like everything and everything was like,

I just was interested. And so I kind of had it in my mind for a really long time. It was still kind of grimy and kind of like exciting in that way. Yes. And I remember I said in a cab, we were in a cab once, and I said to my mom, I had this like... Take me to LaGuardia. I was freaking out.

And I remember I had my favorite outfit. It was pink and had guitars all over it. And I called it my rock and roll outfit. And I said to my mom, I was like, can I wear my rock and roll outfit tomorrow? And the cab driver said, I'll wait for you. I'll marry you later. And I was like, oh, this cab driver is going to marry me, which in retrospect was maybe gross. But I thought it was amazing. He was arrested. And his name is Noah Bombay.

And we will be right back. And now back to the show. So if I'm a young writer and I want to, or an aspiring writer, would you recommend writing plays or trying to write like a dialogue scene before you start to take on sort of the formatting of a feature and stuff like that?

I think it's really useful just in terms of like, it's very cheap to do in terms of like seeing how it works with actors. You know, I... Because your dialogue is so great. It's so easy. It's so natural. It's so... You're also saying...

Like that's a great little trick, right? You have something – well, people actually talk like that but then you sort of Trojan horse in something actually pretty profound and like, oh my god, and I realize I'm now crying and – or laughing and like –

you make it seem very, very easy. And did that start with... Yeah, and also stop sneaking messages in, Greta. You know what I mean? It's too much for us. We need to be ready. We can't take it. We're too sensitive. So did a lot of that come from trying with being a playwright and doing mostly dialogue with that? Yeah. I mean, well, I think

actually doing community theater or doing theater at school was also memorizing really great text even in like scene class is amazing because it kind of makes you realize why it's great is because it

I don't know. I haven't had this experience that many times as an actor, but like, I remember like doing, you know, I don't know, Shakespeare or Tennessee Williams or Edward Albee or something like that. When the text sort of opens up to you and you realize like you could make so many decisions at this kid as this character and they're all right because it's rich and it's sort of full and it's there for you. And I think, um,

I was like, oh, that's a gift to an actor if you can kind of find words that make them feel free and not constrained. And yeah, for me, writing... Again, it was all in college. I was really lucky. My...

One of my playwriting professors was like because we'd all read each other's work and also Kate McKinnon was she was also doing playwriting classes with me at the same time She's a problem. She's trouble. I'm really glad you got away from her. Wait, so that was in Jason's intro you were roommates. I

Yeah, yeah. Well, she was at Columbia and I was at Barnard. And then we ended up, you know, I don't know. You like go in for housing together. She tried to pull you in, right? And take you down the path. And good for you that you stayed away. She was always the funniest, most talented person I'd ever met. And like good at everything. And I also saw her do drama. Like she could do anything. She was like Meryl Streep. She was like...

unreal and yeah but we would do these playwriting classes together and you read each other's work out loud and then

Our teacher organized for real professional actors to come read our plays, which was like... Real professional actors? Real professional actors. And the actor, I don't know if you know him, he's a wonderful actor, Michael Chernus. Sure. Yes. He's amazing. No way. And he came and he read my play. And I was like 19 and he was amazing. And I thought I was the best writer because he made it even more...

It was like, it was so exciting. Let me ask you a question. Have you cast Michael Chernus in one of your films yet? Actually, we did. Yes. Good for you to call Jason's bluff. Good for you. A movie called Mistress America and we cast him and I told him, I was like, do you remember coming to Barnard College one fall? And he said, oh my God, that was you. I said,

That's so crazy. You know, I just saw an interview yesterday with Matt Damon talking about when he wrote Good Will Hunting, and he wrote that in college as a... He was writing... He was doing like a... They had to write one-act plays, and he was talking about the fact that he wrote this sort of 40-minute thing, and he says to his professor, I think I've failed.

because I've got this thing and I don't know what it is, but I think maybe it's a screenplay. And then he ended up taking it back and writing with Ben. And what was interesting was talking about the process of then Ben looking at it going...

I think we should work on this together." And then talking about the discovery as young writers and going-- and Ben saying to him, like, "If your character says this, I think the other guy should say this." And them having-- And as you know, as a writer, that so much of it is just that, right? Is just trusting your instinct in those moments of, like, understanding who that character is and going-- And I thought it was very valuable to say out loud to young writers,

just that process is really that, right? And having the confidence. Or like Chuck Martin used to say, right? Writing's just talking. Was that Chuck Martin? Jim Valli. Jim Valli. Yeah, the great Jim Valli. No, that's all... I mean, I think it is... I always said...

you know, I'm probably stealing this from someone, but like writing is listening. That was me. You have to sort of, that was you. No, you kind of have to listen to the characters talk to each other. And I think, and in a funny way, for me anyway, directing, like I can't,

For me, the writing process and the directing process are different. They're very separated. Yeah. And I don't really want to direct something until I feel like the script is good and, like, worth doing. And I think...

Because they're kind of separate parts of my brain, there's times as a director where I'm like, I knew something as a writer a year ago or six months ago, which I don't know anymore. And I sort of have to trust the writer part of me that they knew what they were doing and not...

tinker with it later. Like any edits I've done in the directing process, I've always regretted. I've always gone back to the original script and I'm like, what was I trying to do? Yeah, I get, you know, it's funny, you write, I imagine you always write alone, right? You write by yourself only. Unless I write with Noah, he's the only other

So you do write with, yeah, because I write with Chappie. Chappie. I know, I bring up Chappie. Once an episode. And I find, I get so much value from me. Now, he writes some stuff on his own as well, but he and I write together, and I get so much value out of those conversations and those moments so that later when we do stuff and when we actually shoot stuff that we've,

that we've got each other to go back and go like, "Wait, what was-- I think-- What were we thinking in that moment?" And one of us will catch the other one and go, "We're doing it because blah, blah, blah." And it does make sense. And I think we are right on this. You need that sounding-- Yeah, it's kind of what you're talking about a little bit. Exactly. But Greta, what about when the directing-- Do you let the directing

win over the writing or is it the other way around? You may have just answered this, but like what if while you're directing something, you figure, oh, you know what? We're actually saying that with this performance or saying that with this camera shot. So we don't actually need to literally say it. Let's cut the line. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's not really the like director side of me wins as much as when you kind of expose it all to air and bring actors in. I think it's often more that I feel that the actor wins

Usually I shoot what's on the page. I'm pretty good at it because I'm like, well, you know. But then often because I've gotten to work with such great actors, you find that the actor has done it without, you know, you've written all these lines and the actor, the audience knows right away what the actor is feeling. They're communicating it anyway. But yeah, I

I, it's, it's really with like actors that I feel like it changes. Right. What interests me is, so I haven't, obviously like everybody else, I've seen the trailer for Barbie and I haven't seen it yet, but it looks amazing. And it's so visually, first of all, visually, it's so stunning. There's so much to look at. And so I'm curious because I've never worked on something like that before where, where there is such a visual element to it.

that how you approach that as you're writing it, how much of that ends up on the page. And if you're directing, you don't really have to explain it, although you do have to walk everybody else through it, right? Right. A little bit. In some ways it was on the page. Yeah, there were things on the page in a sort of general sense, but I found that for Barbie in particular, it was, I had a very long time working with a production designer before. I mean, I think I started talking to the production designer in,

the at least a year before we started shooting and DP at least a year and same with the custom designer. And so a lot of the things that got worked out in the movie were things that, um, came out of just like tons of meetings of like how even things like, um, we, you know, there's these incredible sets that they built and they also, um,

It was like a combination of like large scale sets that are on these sound stages. And then also we built a lot of miniatures, which was amazing. And I've never built miniatures, but I love them. Like those pictures of like when they were making, you know, Star Wars or if you watch the like ILM documentary, you're like, all I want to do is glue little...

Did you watch the ILM documentary? I love the ILM documentary. It's incredible. Incredible. It's like my favorite. Those guys are like... Unbelievable. I just love them. And they're all so special. I don't know. And they were all like in college, just like in a warehouse going like, let's make this. Well, we can't make that. There's no... It doesn't exist. Well, let's build it. Well, what? And they just built a camera that makes it do what you want to do. It's just...

Phenomenal. Fascinating. I think it's also, I mean, I have to say, like, in terms of documentaries about making things, Disney Plus is killing it. They've got the ILM doc and also the Get Back, the Beatles doc. Yes. And did you see the Pixar doc?

That's incredible. I gotta get on it. That's incredible. Did you guys see the doc about the Pixar doc? Yeah, they did a doc about the making of the Pixar doc. Wait, since we're on the Barbie thing, I just have to ask an obvious question. First of all, when somebody approached you or did you come up with the idea, how did it happen? Because someone like me sitting back was like,

Like, they're making Barbie a movie? Like a live-action movie? And then you see the trailer, you're like, oh my God, this is so cool. But at first, weren't you like, wait, what? Well, actually, it was Margot Robbie invited me into this because she's a producer, and I had met her a few years earlier, and I loved her as an actor, and then when I talked to her as a producer, it was just, she's really...

wonderful and smart and everything you hope a producer can be. And then she, so she got the rights and was going to make it. And she came to me and said, do you want to, do you want to write, would you be interested in writing it? And then, and then I,

That was like shortly after the birth of my first child. And I must have said, yes, and I'd like Noah to write it too. Which then later he kind of was like, am I writing a Barbie movie with you? Just the Ken parts. And I was like, yeah, it's going to be great. And he was like, what are we going to do? I don't know. But then I sort of had a...

I don't know. I just had a feeling about it. Mostly I had a feeling about Margot and it sort of seemed so outrageous. I thought, well, I don't know. It could be interesting. And then, and then Noah and I started writing it really, we started writing it in March of 2020. So it was like,

very much shut down, locked down time. And then, yeah. And then anyway, I didn't know I was going to direct it until we were done writing the script. And I was like, well, this is, I really like this and I don't want anyone else to do it. And what, what is, any fears about it? Like any fears about like. Well, so many fears. All I have is fears. I still have fears. The fears are continuing. No, no, it's, it's,

It's a, yeah, it's terrifying. You and Noah are both incredibly good at keeping things real, keeping things smart, sophisticated, nuanced, blah, blah, blah, all the things that you would not think of first when you think of Barbie, which is for kids and something that is, I think by design, supposed to be very sort of base and primary. Was there a...

I'm sure there was a very interesting discussion between you and him about, okay, how are we going to take something that is really sort of, again, generic by design and put in all the stuff that we're really good at and known for? Was that an exciting kind of opposite situation for you guys? Well, thank you for all of that. I mean, yeah, I guess I've always feel like there's something exciting about...

Things that appear unlikely or things that appear sort of like, how's that going to work? You know, or I think that sometimes those are where really interesting stuff comes from. And I think part of that has to do with because of honestly community theater or just doing like sort of like, well, we're going to do it with what we've got. Let's go. Or, but you know, and I think that kind of, I don't know that it's like that challenge of, of, of finding your way into something that seems like,

kind of like, this is an odd-- Right, like everybody's got a preconceived notion of what that is, kind of what you were saying, Jay. Like everybody's got this idea, Barbie is this, et cetera. We all have-- And so by taking something that we all have such a relationship with or we have a preconceived notion about-- Yeah, like you guys are so, so incredibly good at writing stuff that is very sort of adult or questions that adults are capable of processing. I would imagine the studio was keen on

keeping intact an appeal for children with this, yet you and Noah are both so great and known for the other. And so was there a negotiation with the studio about kind of merging the two or were you and Noah excited about kind of just doing that even without asking them?

Well, I mean, I think from the outset we knew we were going to make a PG-13 movie so that it wasn't exactly, I mean, it wasn't like, you know, a hard R or anything. Or a soft PG. Yeah, it's like a PG-13 could kind of occupy that space. I mean, I think also the movies, you know, I love a lot of PG-13 movies and when I think about certain, like, I don't know, like even like Clowns

Clueless, which was a big one for me. It's like, I didn't understand a lot of those jokes, but I also loved it and thought it was hilarious and great. And I felt like there's a way to do something that's kind of sophisticated and broad in that way. But the truth is, we really just...

amused ourselves and wrote something that we loved. And again, because of the pandemic, there was a real sense of like, I don't even know if any of this is like possible. Like, I don't know if we're going to go back to the movie theaters. And I think in a way it sort of freed us. Also because it was Barbie, we were like, let's just go for Brooke. Let's make the craziest, most unmakeable thing we can write and then see what happens. And so there was no kind of sense of like,

to please anyone. And you also didn't think that you were going to be stuck with directing it either at the time. You were like, well, let's just write something that we both like and we don't have to direct it. I was like, well, this is somebody else's problem. Somebody else has to figure out how to build all this stuff. And then...

And you're absolutely not able to fake this, but I didn't need to make a Barbie movie. I was like, well, I want to make this one, and if you guys don't want to make this one, then I don't. And then you hire Rodrigo Prieto, who's like...

I mean, the movie is so, again, by design, perfectly, like, colorful and flat and bright. And, you know, he's like, you know, an incredible cinematographer that can shape light like the best of them. Yes. Was he excited to do something that was completely opposite from what he's known for, too? Well, he's always been a dream DP for me to work with. Yeah. I mean, he really lights with God fingers. He's got one of those abilities. And he's just...

you know, extraordinary. And I approached him about doing this

I sent him the script and he thought it was funny and he was interested. We started talking and he just, I mean, it was, he just shot. It's funny. I'm imagining his face as he opens up the envelope and it just says Barbie. And then he's like page one. Screaming at his agent. But he was like, but he, we started working on it.

right after he finished shooting Killers of the Flower Moon with Scorsese. And it took me a full week to like, I had to like step aside with him and we were shot listening and talking and working on things. And I was like, Rodrigo, I'm having a lot of trouble because I just have to look at you and say, okay, so then Barbie is going to walk through. Like I couldn't, I was like, I feel, and he was like, I want to be here. I want to be doing this. Yeah.

And now, a word from our sponsor. All right, back to the show.

Greta, I have a question. When you're on set, are you ever open to actors changing lines? If an actor's like, you know what, I don't know that I would... Do you fight back? Do you just say the lines as written? I promise they'll work? Shut your mouth, actor. Hit your mark, say your line. Do you say that? I hear you say that. I don't say that. But I do... I try to do as much as I can build in rehearsal because I find that I like...

I like people to be open to do, I mean, honestly, I mean, from theater, like table work, just like, you know, any questions and how does this work? And I think if there's improv that comes out of that that then wants to get worked into the script, I really do like words to be written just because it is like, you know, movies are so...

You can really get pulled in different directions and also seduced by how talented everyone is that you can be like, wait, are we telling the story or am I just letting you get... And I think... So I like building it in in rehearsal. And then...

Certainly, if there are certain actors who are like, can you let me just play a little? I would say I'm more open to it than Noah. I think Noah's much more like, say these lines. A long time ago, a friend of mine worked with Robert De Niro many, many, many, many years ago. And this person said that Robert was like, they'd be rehearsing right before they shot it. And he'd go, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. And you don't say that either. Let's just talk how people talk.

He goes, because when you say a line and I wait and then I say my line, it doesn't sound real. It sounds like you're waiting for a line to be said. Did Joe Pesci tell you that? No. You know, so I found that... Did you have Joe Pesci on Hypocon Reactor? Was it Joe Pesci? Yeah, it was Joe Pesci. Now...

Did you know that Ryan Gosling was as funny as he is, or did you just hire him because he's a hot dude that's a perfect Ken? Because he's a funny MF-er. Yeah, no, I knew. I knew. I did. I really, I felt like I knew. Because we knew we were writing the part for Marco. So we actually, in writing it, cast Ryan as...

We wrote his name into the script and everything. It was like the thing that I was like, it's Ryan. It's Ryan Gosling. I know. Wait, how did you write his name? Did you say, imagine a Ryan Gosling? No, I said, Ken Ryan Gosling. Wow. Ken Ryan Gosling type. Ken Ryan Gosling. And it was everywhere. And then when we handed him the script, the studio was like, oh, that's so wonderful that you know Ryan. And I was like, oh, I don't know Ryan. I've never met Ryan. I have no idea. But actually the thing that made me, I mean, I've always thought he was like,

You know those actors you can... I mean, they're always my favorite actors, whether they do comedy or not. You can feel they have funny rhythms in them. You can just sort of feel that they know what's funny. And I always felt that about him. And then I'm a big fan of all of his SNLs. I always thought he was great on SNL. And he did...

I think he did Guy That Just Got a Boat on Weekend Update. Oh, yeah, I remember that. And it was so good. And I love S and I watch every week and I always thought he was great. So I had this idea and then it took him so, he was like, he was not sure. He was like, I don't, I'm not, Karen, I can't do this. And I was like,

I actually, Margo and I just were like, we will do anything and this is, we want you to be in this movie. How was he during his first wardrobe fitting? Was he excited or upset about the colors and the materials? Honestly, we had been texting for like a year and talking on the phone and he'd been sending pictures and we'd been going back and forth but then I had this, like the night before he showed up, I had this terrible thought, like what if he comes and says like, I'm not wearing anything.

And he showed up and I think the very first outfit he wore was like an all pink sailor outfit. And I was like, wow, he's really doing this. Get out of my closet. But yeah, he did it. He went for it. So Greta, what was the first feature film that you directed? And what was that sort of moment where you went, okay, I got to direct this. I got to do this.

Well, the first one that I did sort of write and direct on my own was Lady Bird. Hold for a moment. Yeah, no kidding. So that was your first. That was my first. I had co-directed before and I had written before. And then I just, it took me a long time to say like I want to direct. I think because I love...

I love movies and there's a kind of fear around it that you're going to, I don't know, mess up the form or something. So I just... You're going to ruin the history of film. The history of cinema went right up until 2017 and then that was it.

Were there parts of it? Because you're clearly incredible at it, but you didn't, as you said, you didn't really know if you were going to be. And what part of it do you think you surprised yourself with being not bad at? And what part do you surprise yourself with being a little kind of, well, that's less comfortable for me than I thought it was going to be. Well, I think that...

The whole thing is uncomfortable. I mean, you know, you directed... Like, the whole thing's sort of uncomfortable because it's... It's a lot. Yeah, and also there's really no way to... I mean, you can go to school for it, but it's also just doing it is the only way you can really get through it and kind of figure out what works and what doesn't work. I always... I think the thing I've always been envious of is, like, the people who...

I don't know any other way to describe it, but that there are some directors where I feel that they're like native speakers of cinema, that they understand it in just such a deep way. I mean, Steven Spielberg is obviously that. I mean, he almost invented that, like modern cinema.

cinematic language. And I always feel slightly like I'm in translation. Like I feel like, okay, the script, I feel like I can get to a place that feels worthy to shoot. And I feel like I'm good as a director, but I always feel like there's just one layer of translation, which is actually okay because it's

you know, sometimes there can be things that are quite beautiful that comes out of that. And it's like, I do think... I think something that's always scary about directing but always exciting about directing is there's no...

Nobody knows. There's no secret crib sheet where you can say, well, if you follow these things, it's going to work. And as you said earlier, the audience will take whatever you give them. They're wide open and generous right at that first moment when the screen goes black and then the first image comes up. They'll take whatever you give them. Just don't drop it.

them you know and that's that's really and one of your one of your your influences i read i someone i really like or at least this quote howard hawks where he says you know a a good movie is just um three great scenes and no bad ones nothing too boring in between yeah yeah yeah it's just it doesn't matter what what subject matter it's on what genre it's it's just

you just can't have any bad scenes and just have a few that are great. By the way, what if you just hear Greta, step out of the house, please. Please come out of the building. Put your hands up. Hands, hands. I

I know, I know. It's very, it's an intense. So you got a deal on the apartment, yeah? Just above the station? Like I was saying to Jason and Will the other day, like me and Scotty are watching all the Indiana Jones movies from the beginning to gear up for the new one that's coming out. And I was watching, we were watching the third one last night or something. You guys each in your own sleeping bag when you're doing this?

Yeah. Okay, sorry. We got little treats in October. But anyway, so, you know, all these space superhero, whatever movies, which I'm a fan of, but it's like you watch these Indiana Jones movies, like they were just really great, like written and great, amazingly shot movies that were still action, but they were down here on earth.

And so I think that if anybody wanted to like take, you know, people by surprise, they do something like that again, instead of up there, they do it down here. Well, I think there's always like, I agree. And I also think like, you know, I mean, one of my favorite directors movies is the Mad Max Fury Road recently. And like how he establishes, I mean, and I, there's certainly,

you know, great young directors who can do this and I've never done anything like this, but the way he establishes space and you don't even notice that you understand the relationship between everything intuitive, like it's, but then you realize, oh, he's, that's great. Like if you know, because I'm not inherently interested in car chases and,

um just as but if you don't establish a geography there's no suspense no idea exactly but i always felt like in fury road i'm i know where everything is all the time i understand what what is happening and from the first moment where he like runs through that maze of stuff i'm not confused even though it's shot very um close and you know it has a strong stylistic choices and i think

I think even just tethering things to earth in terms of like geography is thrilling for an audience. And I think like to Indiana Jones, you always know where you are. And I think I find that to me when I talk about sort of like people who are like, you know,

understand cinema in that way, it's that they just instantly can establish space. When you see that sort of like craftsmanship when it comes to filmmaking, like I was watching somebody who was breaking down that scene in The Birds, you know, Hitchcock, and seeing the guy outside getting attacked at the gas station, and the way he cuts it and he keeps cutting back to inside and then you see the gas going down to the thing. - Yes. - And then the guy stepping out of the-- and everybody's like, "Don't light the cigarette!"

And he blows up and then, sorry, spoiler alert, and then he blows up the gas station. And then you end up at the perspective of the birds. You are the villain by the end. Right. Looking down at the explosion. And it's so mesmerizing to see that kind of, as the guy broke it down, he was like, don't you get it? You're the villain now. And I was like, oh, fuck. Yeah. So...

Yeah, it's really impressive. I know. I also think it's impressive when it can be like a Hitchcock thing or like Indiana Jones or whatever where you're so caught up in the storytelling and it's in service of the storytelling that not...

you never say to yourself, well, look at that shot. Right. You're just in it. Yes. And I think that that's like, I always think of like in Jaws, the shot where the car comes on the ferry and then it's one shot. It's like a five shot that becomes a three shot that becomes a two shot. And it's like they didn't cut the whole time and you never think about it. You're never like,

he's doing a one-er. Yeah, I know. It's just great. And I think that kind of thing and that like to Howard Hawks or Preston Sturges or Ernst Lubitsch or those guys who made those wonderful, like I think we'd call them talkies, but they were also so cinematic that it's this combination of like the highest respect for words and then also just clean, beautiful storytelling with great ideas for shots that aren't,

And I think that that kind of unfussy filmmaking that's language first, but yet also gorgeous. It's like, I always think of that like a high watermark. Yeah, when it's understated like that, when you don't know and you can just appreciate it for what it is, but it doesn't stick out.

It's like wearing a really great shirt but with no logo. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like you don't need to advertise it. It just happens to look good. I think the analogy holds up. Or a beautifully cut suit or something. Yeah, that's what I mean. Unless the shirt or the sweatshirt or whatever said Smartless on it. Yeah.

But anyway. Do we sell merch? Go to the merch store. Go to the merch store for sure. Go to the merch store. Hey, Greta, do you know where the word movie comes from? No, I don't. So the original studios were in Brooklyn, right? They weren't in L.A. They were in Brooklyn. And the people working on the set who walked around-

They were... What the fuck? They moved, right? They called all the people that moved around the set, they called them movies. Wait a... The people they called the movies. The people would move around. I see. Movies. Brooklyn, huh? I love that. Now there's something to cut. Hey, Freda. Freda, when you love movies so much, if you couldn't make movies or act in them, what else would you do? Yes. Huh? Yeah.

There's a question you've never had. Well, I mean, this is like not a job that's available anymore because the world has changed. But like in the... Blacksmith? I think I've always liked... Cobbler? No, no, no. Like old-timey newsrooms. Like if they were like, get the paper out every day. We got to rush this one. What's the deadline? So you want to be a copywriter? Yeah. A beat reporter.

Like one of the ladies in all the president's men who was like, you know. But I do like that idea of like we got to get it out every day. And like we're going to go to press and then we're going to get scooped and like all of that stuff. I think it's also that kind of like pressure of every single day there's a deadline. Extra, extra. Yeah. Now what about when you're – what about when you are making movies and how do you decompress when you get home? I know you got those two wonderful kids to deal with. Yeah.

But what else? What would you do? What about when they're down? And then mommy needs to take it easy and she needs to refill her bucket. We're turning on TV. We're reading poetry. So I do know and I do watch a lot of movies together. I think that's something. I read a lot of books. But I also really love...

Love is blind. You love Love is Blind. You can't stop watching that. You can't stop. I love it so much. Sure. I love people falling in love on television. In the dark. In their hearts. It just makes me so happy. Well, it's like The Bachelor. It's so real. I've never seen The Bachelor, but actually Ryan Gosling, when we started talking about Ken, he said...

The Ken, all the Kens, I'd never seen them. And he was like, oh, Ken reminds me of the men on The Bachelorette when the woman isn't around. They don't know what to do with themselves and they get stressed out. And they're like doing push-ups. That's what dudes do. And they kind of like are competitive with each other. And it's like if one guy wears glasses and then another guy wears glasses, he's like, no, you took my thing. I'm the guy with glasses. Oh, my God. The top knot.

I probably would love The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, but I've never seen it. But I love Love is Blind. I mean, that's not a very exciting answer, but I do love it. The first season of Love is Blind, there's one couple that's still together. I know. Not wild. I know. They're in love. Lauren and Cameron. Yeah.

Exactly. Lauren and Cameron, wherever you are, best of luck, huh? Best of luck, huh? Best of luck. You're doing great. Greta, this has been a very fast hour. Oh, my gosh. You're a very quick chat. Yeah, this is wonderful. You've got real chat skills, okay? The directing and the acting doesn't work out.

Maybe radio. Please, please, it's going to work out. Please don't stop making movies and writing and directing and acting all of it. You're so good. I also can't wait for Snow White. You're so great at it. Oh, yes. Oh, thank you. Snow White. That's great.

And I'm excited to see you in your Tony Award winning performance. Go see it. You're in town. Go see it. I know I am. And also I've just started because my son's now four months old. I've just started like being able to go out at night. Doing stuff. Yeah. I've got a date to see Parade.

So then right after, like, I'm getting them in. But yeah, I can't wait. Well, thanks, honey. It's so nice to meet you. Well, you're the greatest. You're super duper talented. Very, very kind to do this with us. Thank you very much. Thank you, guys. It was like being at my own surprise party on the other side.

Thank you for doing this. Best of luck with Barbie. Cannot wait to see it. Yes. Best of luck. Thank you, Greta. You guys are going to like it. I can't wait. I'll be there. We're going to be there opening weekend. Yes. Yeah. I'm going as Ken for Halloween. I'm already tapping it. No one else can take it. And he's got the outfit on now for it. Yeah. Thank you, Greta Gerwig. Thanks, Greta. Thank you, Greta Gerwig. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

Uh, she's got a very exciting movie coming out. I just think that Barbie is a monster. I think it's really huge. It's huge. I mean, think about it. She's just writing and making these incredible films. And it's so exciting to be. I mean, but she's an actor too. No, I know. Like Jason. Wait, so sorry, Sean. Are you eating? Sorry. Yeah. Oh yeah. Is it lunchtime? We're almost done. Um,

Now, Sean, I saw you were killing, during the show, you were killing a big Coke. Yeah. You got a big Coke going? Big glass of Coke. And then what are you chewing? Cheez-Its. Still on the Cheez-Its. What a fun snack. Is it an all-you-can-eat endeavor we got here? Yeah, there's a buffet in my kitchen. Cheez-Its.

Different flavors of cheese. I just go down the line. I'm like, Scotty, can you move the line along, please? Just you and Scotty lining up for food in your own kitchen? I'm happy because I thought that the film, you know, it's Barbie, but when I first saw it, I thought that it was Barb.

Bye. That wasn't very good, Barbie. It wasn't very good. No, you can't go on that one. I had a better one. I had a better one. Go ahead. You know, I'm so excited to see Barbie. That key doesn't work the door. I've never been denied. I was so excited that she did Barbie. I'm so excited to see it, you know. And I was worried because it's such a big, huge, you know, franchise and important to a lot of people. But it looks like something she really did right there.

Right by. Oh, did right by. Yes, you did do right by. Right by. That will go. You think that's better than mine? Key work, the doors open, and out we go. Bye, y'all. Smart. Less. Smart. Less.

SmartLess is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjarv, Bennett Barbico, and Michael Granteri. SmartLess. This episode was recorded on June 20th. If you like SmartLess, you can listen early and add free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.