"Joaquin Phoenix"
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Hey, everybody. Welcome. Do you love comedy? Do you love to laugh? Well, buckle up because you're going to fucking cry your eyes out. Welcome to Smart Less. Hi, everybody. Oh, Sean, what a nice top you have on this morning. Yeah.

Yeah. What's it say? I can't read it. It says Smartless. It says Haze on the back. So Haze 20, what does it say, 22 on the back? 26, 26. That's your birth date, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a Smartless shirt. We're going to get the frickin' merch plug right at the top. Yep, right there. It's right there. I'm wearing it. It's good to know that we make it in a double XL, too. Yeah. Yeah.

Good for you. You know what I mean? It's good. You got both boobs tucked right in there. Yeah, right? No. Bang, bang. Pow, pow. How's everybody feeling? Is everybody a little sleepy today? Yeah, a little sleepy. A little right. It's a little early. I could feel that. I could feel that. I, um, last, yesterday, so I'm in tech week. Oh, well, this is probably going to air after we open. Well, what's tech week for? What are you talking about? Are you doing a play in New York? Yeah, are you busy doing something? At the Tabasco? So, at the Tabasco Theater.

it's so spicy this show y'all you gotta go check it out anyway the belasco theater david belasco was the owner and this i just found out yesterday i couldn't wait to share it with you guys actually last night uh because we work we're working like 12 14 hour days whatever it is and uh well i don't know how many hours but it's long hours and um seems like you do know yeah and uh

And so the screw guy comes because everybody has these stories because there's an apartment on top of the theater. The who now? What's that? Oh, the crew guy. The crew guy, yeah. The crew guy, there's an apartment on top of the theater. The screw guy came and I'm like, oh, you guys got a screw guy. All right. I'm like, screw guy, please. And they just send one over right away. So the screw guy gets there. Oh, speaking of which, Scotty got his cue.

you walked by just as i said screw guy anyway i like seeing scotty go by just shuffle by in his shorts yeah so anyway okay so this crew guy told me about this story because it's supposed to be haunted and sometimes

And so David Velasco, who owned the theater years and years and years ago, there's this apartment on top of the theater that's now abandoned and nothing's up there. But he used to live there and there was an elevator shaft where he used to bring up, you know, lady friends over and over, right? And so one of the ladies fell through the elevator shaft and died. It's now like boarded up and people say, and they call her Lady in Blue because people say they can see her in the seats sometimes.

How do you fall through an elevator shaft? I guess it was open and there was no elevator. I guess. I don't know.

There was an episode of L.A. Law once. I'm not making it up. I swear to God, I just saw a clip of it recently, and they're having a conversation by the elevator door, and this woman speaks really tersely to the guy. She's like, so you better watch out. The elevator door is open. She walks into the elevator shaft and plunges to her death. And the guy's like, oh, my God. It was on TV. Sounds like a...

And that writer's room was like, how are we going to, what are we going to do in this episode? How are we going to? Doors open and she just falls through, just like the lady in blue. Yeah, the lady in blue. Sean, have you hit fuck it yet on this play? So, I mean, it's a long run, right? It's been taxing for Jason and, both Jason and me, it's been a long run.

I mean, so, but you haven't even started performances yet. You've been, you've been whacking away at it for how long now? You've already done it in Chicago for months and months and months. Yeah. Now, because it's so good and was so well received, you take it to New York to the, to the hot and spicy Tabasco and you, you're in rehearsals right now.

You haven't gotten to the point of like, it's enough. No, I mean, as a... You're discovering new things about it every day, right? Yeah, you do kind of. The surprise guest just mentioned, just messaged us and said, this is really interesting. Interesting, so maybe we should just start. LAUGHTER

Wow. I think he, it's a he, has got comments on this too. Should we get right to him? Yeah, I guess so. I mean, by the way, should we mention the play's open now? Yeah, I guess the play's open now by the time we recorded it. The play's open now in New York at the Belasco. Wait, what's the play called? Okay. And did I like it on opening night? You would love it. It's called Goodnight, Oscar. Okay, there it is. All right, Goodnight. Is there a comma in there?

There is after night. And good night, I didn't know, is two words. I thought it was one word. And if you find yourself at the theater, watch out for a gaping shaft. Oh, boy. Wait, I love that. We got to put that on the Sean list. So you thought good night was one word. I did. Didn't you think it was one word? Probably not. Just like good morning. Good morning.

Has good morning ever been one word? You know what else, listener? Hang on, Sean. Listener, Sean was shocked to learn that John F. Kennedy was not shot in Washington, D.C. He was shot in Dallas. You said that on the last episode. Yeah, because it's stunning to me. You know what else, listener, is stunning about Sean? He was really surprised that Beatles, the group, the band. No, no.

I'm not the only one that thought that didn't know it meant beat on a drum. B-E-A-T. Sean, I'm just noticing you're in your place in New York right now. And you guys, you've been there for a month now, but you don't, in the last couple of years, you haven't spent a ton of time there. No. But in that back shelf there, did you guys go to Knick Knacks or Us and just load up?

Load up on the knickknacks. It's a real tchotchke haven. Hey, knickknack paddywhack. Look at your spider fern, too, up there on its own little... That's nice, though. You're doing real well. All right, quiet down. Here comes a respectable guest. All right, we've got a fella. Listen, this fella doesn't do this, okay? He doesn't do it at all. He's trying to keep quiet and do his work.

And while I haven't asked him, my bet is that he's dreading this and that he's thrilled that a full six minutes and 15 seconds are already over without him having to talk. My job is to make this as painless and breezy as possible. And I need your help, man, because this is a Grammy award-winning artist from Puerto Rico. And he's got a black belt in karate. Okay? Okay.

What? Most folks, however, know him as one of the best actors of our generation, so please say hello to actually one of the kindest, warmest, friendliest, most humble fellas I know. Let's welcome Joaquin Phoenix. Oh, my God! Come on. Wow! There he is. There he is. Hi, everybody. Hi. Wait, you're in a trailer, aren't you? Are you in a trailer? Yeah, so I'm on set.

Oh, for the Joker too. So I'm listening to the Jenny. You guys are on Jenny power right now. Exactly. Oh, that's the generation. Now, so then this is your lunch hour? No, we're actually shooting kind of splits. So, you know, we're going to start in a little bit. So I just came up a little early.

The beat from Beatles, is that really for beat, like drums? See? See, you dick? Yes, that's exactly right. I was going to ask you how to do with the beat poets. Oh. Oh, I didn't even think about that. But no, it has to do with the beat. I thought it was the buzz. Sean, real quick, because Joaquin mentioned it, tell Tracy what splits are.

I have no idea. Oh, bless him. Bless him. They don't do splits on Will and Grace. No. It's always sensible. The best hours in all of showbiz. It is the best. So splits, listener, is when you start at noon and you end at midnight as opposed to if you're going to shoot –

full nights, you start when the sun goes down and you end when the sun comes up. Splits is kind of a half-day, half-night shoot. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, that's perfect. Walking, I don't even know where to start, man. I don't know you at all. We've never met and I'm such a fan. Honestly, it's just... Yeah, and...

I guess let's do it kind of like how we always... What I want to know was, what was the... First of all, because you've done so many amazing characters and so many great movies, but what was your first memory, like your first job that you did? First job I did was a guest starring spot on a TV show called Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which my brother River starred in. And they were shooting in...

Northern California. And I think just by default, I think just because it was easy to get somebody local, me and my sister played the small part in the show. And I think that was probably my first significant job. The one time I worked with River, were you not in it too? We did the thing about the Kennedys. Yeah.

We played like young Kennedys. Yeah. What was that? I barely remember. I forget what it's called. Anyway, it was like a movie of the week or something like that. Oh, Robert F. Kennedy and his times. Did you play one of the – because you were so small, you probably couldn't even talk then or maybe just barely because we were like – we were 10 or 11 or something like that, weren't we? Yeah. I was six or seven. No. I don't know.

I don't remember that. I vaguely do now that you mentioned it. It's like out in Massachusetts or something. But I think the very first thing I did was that spot in San Francisco. And then so the...

So the acting to you, I'm not going to hammer you with all your freaking method and all that stuff because I know you hate talking about that as do most. I don't know what it is. I know, exactly. It's just, well, that's what people ask me. No, I like that. I guess my question is when did you get a sense that this acting thing might be a really comfortable thing for you to do and not something that's going to be a lot of work?

you know, that it's not going to be like hammering nails. I wouldn't say that it's very comfortable, but I certainly don't care about that. I mean, I'm not looking for something that's comfortable. I'm looking for a unique experience. Yeah, you get it though, right? But when you see, like Joaquin, when you see an actor talk about their process and we've all seen it and people get into it and they want to,

like, first of all, I remember doing this thing once and somebody was asking it, like, about... So we were doing BoJack Horseman and I got kind of... I think I was kind of a dick, but they were, like, asking about the process and I said, why is everybody so obsessed with how the sausage is made? Why can't they just enjoy the sausage? Right? Like, it's not that interesting. And... But then I see, like...

Like, you know, these actors who talk-- who spend a lot of time, and you see them in these interviews, and they're talking about their process and stuff, and I'm kind of like, "Okay, man, like, if you want-- you want accolades for what you're doing, and you want us to applaud the way you did it, like--"

It seems a little self-serving. I think you have to forgive, like, everybody when they're doing an interview. That's true. Because you just, like, it's impossible, virtually impossible not to be an asshole when you're doing an interview. At least for me. It's my experience. I mean, everybody fucking sounds stupid. That's true. There's just not a good way to come across. And oftentimes, like, a lot of those quotes are from, like,

when you've flown to go to like a film festival in Europe and you're jet lagged and you have like a hundred interviews and you start off just going like, I'm not going to do any of that shit. And within 30 minutes, you're just like, whatever it takes, just get me the fuck out of here. I'll say anything. So like, yes, I read quotes from some interviews and I go, what a twat. And I go, I've done so much worse.

So I always feel like you have to give people like... I think you're... I'm with you on that. And that's totally fair enough. And yeah, like the interview and or junket process is one of the worst sort of that you feel your soul leaving your body and you think like every word you say, you're like,

God, I hate myself so much for what I just said. And you're trying to come up with different ways to answer the same freaking question and you end up backing into a dumb answer. I think that what I meant was more that there are people, it seems like they go out of their way to consistently talk about that and you're like, okay, that's what I was referring to. However, having said that. Yeah, I mean, maybe, I don't know. I always think like whatever it takes, whatever works for you.

Yeah. It doesn't really matter. And, you know, I understand there are some rules that it feels like it requires you to... Okay, for me, every time I work...

I know that I'm going to experience like an ungodly amount of humiliation. It's just, it's just how it's going to go. There's no way that I can get through it without being humiliated. And I think that's part of like,

letting go in some ways, right? Because it's kind of stupid. Like, what we do is stupid. Yeah. And, like, surrendering to it. It is embarrassing. And, like, it's really difficult to do some things because if you actually step out for a second and you're, like, objective and you look at yourself, you just cringe. It's so fucking embarrassing and stupid. So sometimes I understand, like, you have to...

I find that I have to like rush right into it and just go like, just humiliate me right now. Make me feel like nothing. And so that I'm willing to do this thing because it's,

If I really think about it, I'd just be so embarrassed that I won't be able to do it. It's like the stand-up comic that goes out there on purpose and tries to bomb, you know, like to sort of rip off the Band-Aid and just like, I'm up here, I'm exposed, here are the jokes, or here's the non-joke, and that almost becomes a performance of just raw vulnerability and let's all get in it together. Yeah.

I always find incredibly admirable. Well, Sean said, Sean, you mentioned like surrender. There is that moment where you do have to surrender and I think that you do, like I watch you do all these characters in these movies over the last number of years and I always, when I think about someone like you, I think like there's a guy who's like sensitive to the material. He's like,

I would never want to be like, "Hey, man, how did you do this scene?" I'm like, "He did a scene how he did the scene." You understood the material, you took it in, you were sensitive to it, and then you just, like, worked with the material that you were given, and that was your interpretation, that was your collaboration with the material. Like,

full stop. Right. And it's also like, you know, journalists, critics, reporters, whatever, just kind of doing just enough of their job to get you to fill in the blank. Yeah, that's true. You know, with no thought behind it. I can't stand that. So how did you lose the weight for Joker? Oh, here he comes. Here he comes. What about, do you remember when you were growing up,

You guys lived a very sort of atypical adolescent like I did as well. How much of it do you remember? Do you remember what the policy was in your house about, well, devices didn't exist back then, but TV and that, or was it the kind of house where go outside, find a rock, find a stick and entertain yourself like it kind of was in my house? Yeah, I don't think we really had a TV until, you know, until it was probably...

11 or 12 or something like that. I don't know, maybe a bit younger, maybe because we'd been working by then. But certainly when I was very young, I don't think there was even a TV in the house. But we did, there were five of us, right? So it's easy to entertain yourself when there's five kids, right? And my dad was always really amazing at finding people

houses to rent that were always like um you know in la you can live like we grew up in the in the valley for a lot and there's there's houses that are like by government land right there's just like mountain ranges right like that's the backyards so suddenly you could go there and and so that's what we enjoy doing right just playing games and using our imagination um so that's what i remember and now a word from our sponsor and now back to the show

Forgive me, I don't know, Joaquin, were you, so you mentioned growing up in the Valley. So were you born in L.A.? Like that was... No, born in Puerto Rico. Oh, that was true. Yeah, I was born in Puerto Rico. Oh, really? That was true. Yeah, let's see. I think first we lived in, when we came to the States in Puerto Rico, we were in Florida. And then my mother was college roommates with...

Penny Marshall. Oh, Penny Marshall, yeah. Oh, wow, really? Yeah, and Laverne and Shirley was very popular at the time. And my brother and sister, my older brother and sister, River and Rain, would... My brother learned to play guitar very young. And they would perform at, like, talent shows and stuff. And they were, like, winning these talent shows. Oh, wow. So I think they felt like this, like...

just this curiosity and natural progression towards like something in the entertainment field. My parents didn't really have a lot of experience with it, right? So I don't think they really knew, but I think that it seemed that the kids had, I don't know, I don't really want to say talent, but whatever the fuck it was, right? Yeah, yeah. Some kind of like creative spark. Yeah. And I think they wanted to support that. And so my mom actually reached out to Penny Marshall and,

And so we were thinking of coming to Los Angeles and would you meet the kids? And I think she said, "Don't, don't come out here." So you can imagine, like, somebody called you, like, from your past, like, when you went to college, like, "Hey, I have these kids. Will you come out and work? Will you meet them?" And Penny's like, "Let me stop you there." Yeah. "No way!" "Please, please don't come out." And I think we packed up the next day and went to L.A.

And, yeah. That's fucking crazy. So what were your parents doing at the time that they're, like, in, I think you said Florida. Like, what was going on? My dad did, like, manual labor. Like, he was, like, the groundskeeper for this wealthy man. I think it was, like, a recording producer. I can't remember his name.

And there was a, like a little guest house on the property where we lived. - Wow. - And my dad took care of the grounds and my mom was raising us. And then we went to Los Angeles. My mom started working at NBC for this amazing casting director named Joel Thurm. - Joel Thurm, that's right, at NBC. - Wow. And she worked there and my dad took care of us, took care of the kids.

And we met Joel. By the way, let me stop you there just for one second. So Joel Thurm, for the listener and for you guys, if you guys, Sean, you may have met him. No, maybe not. Maybe he was gone by then. But this was the office where when you were going in to do a network test, which for the listener, that's the last step before you get a series as an actor. And when you get a series, you're employed for years and years, and it's like winning the lottery. It's a high-stakes thing. So that last audition, that last meeting in that office was,

is Joel Thurm's office. So Joaquin's mom was on his desk. She was sitting at the desk right there where you're sitting waiting just like dying with anxiety right before you're supposed to go in there. And it was like, to me, it's carved into my memory. That office, that little, that lobby, that section right there was where...

Most of my anxiety started as a child. So you're saying Joaquin's mom. No, no, but she was this ray of sunshine. And every time I'd run into her, we'd have a very nice, warm hug and smile. I love that. Yeah, she's amazing. Wait, so Joaquin, so everybody was in it. Everybody was kind of in it or around it, yeah? Yeah, and so we would go and visit, and Joel was always...

Just so sweet. Like we would, he would just set us up in his office and we would watch. That's probably where I remember really being exposed to like TV and shows, TV shows, was in Joel's office because we would watch all the reruns. He had every tape of every NBC show. That's so cool. And it was just like the best time going there. And yeah, and I think we tried to do...

I think he actually arranged for us to do some recording, like a test to see if we could do a show as a family. - Oh wow. - Like the Partridge family or something? - I guess, some shit like that. And yes, he introduced us to Iris Burton, who was like the child actor agent. - Yeah.

And the only one that would take all five of us. Because we'd met other agents. It was a package deal. And they'd be like, I'll take those two, I'll take that. She was like, I'll take them all. Wow. Wow. And so your interest in acting didn't really come as much from watching TV or watching movies because you guys didn't do a ton of that when you were growing up. It kind of came from once you moved to Los Angeles and you started to get this initial exposure to it? Yeah. I mean, I think it just was...

an extension of the games that we played. Like, my dad was a fucking ham. - Yeah. - Like, he would do these skits, like, all the time. And again, because we didn't have TV, we just basically did, like, plays. So we would just make up these kind of scenarios and play them out. Play dress-up and, you know, shit like that.

So I think it just was an extension of that. And then, I remember being on set, the energy on a set is like unmatched. It's incredible, right? There's just like 100 people that are all like brilliant in their own specific kind of craft. Yeah. Right, so you've taught people that. It's like incredible what everyone does, right? And there's such a...

I think everyone in the best case scenario, everyone's really excited about what they're doing and they work really hard to kind of create this world. And that's a really interesting energy and it's fucking fun as a kid. You know, it's like, it's so exciting to be on a set. So there was something that was just really enjoyable about it. And then I remember the first scene that we did in this TV show in Seven Brothers, and one of the characters was,

Peter Horton was the actor. And we'd been friends with them, you know, because we'd been there on set. And so they were in the scene with him, and he's meant to get into a fight with the boyfriend of the woman that played our mother. And they get in this, like, fight, and they're rolling around on the ground. And, like, to an eight-year-old, shit felt very real, right? And he was, like, our friend, so we were worried about him.

And I remember being like overcome with this emotion at what was happening. And I distinctly remember like physically buzzing from it. And it was such a powerful feeling because it wasn't real. It was safe. But like I had this feeling coursed through my body. And I was like, I want more of that. Like it was so fucking exciting, right?

And nothing has ever given me that feeling. Like, you're obviously safe because you're doing multiple takes. It's not the end of the world. It's a fucking movie. But it can feel so dangerous. You know, you feel like so much pressure because you're committing something and it's going to be around forever. Yeah. And there's something that just feels like really exciting about that to me still. Yeah.

That's so interesting. Hey, Joaquin, did you do any comedy? You're always funny in what you do. Even if it's a drama, you'll find the comedy. Yeah, but no, like a pure, have you ever done like a pure, again, forgive me, have you done like a pure, pure comedy? I remember seeing you in To Die For, and I thought that was darkly funny. Darkly funny, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To Die For with Nicole Kidman. Yep. I loved it. That was, I think, in the 90s, right? Was that a great experience? It was a great experience.

Yeah, well, I hadn't... The last film that... The last acting that I'd done was when I was, I don't know, 14 or 15 in a movie called Parenthood. And then I... We moved out of Los Angeles. We moved to Florida. And I'd basically given up acting. Yeah, I didn't think that I was going to act again. And then I...

My brother really encouraged me to start acting again and he was actually going to make a film and he wanted me to play his brother. And I think that kind of sparked my renewed interest in it.

And then, yeah, Tadai 4 came up. I remember going and auditioning for it. I read that script and I instantly had an idea of what I thought the character was and went and auditioned for it. And I was always really fortunate. The directors that I worked with, a lot of them just didn't have...

ego and weren't desperate to like micromanage and control and really encouraged me to to bring my ideas to it and to discover it. I remember it really started with Ron Howard on Parenthood and I was surprised at how curious he was about my thoughts and feelings about the character.

So I just, I didn't know that that was allowed. And Gus was, you know, the same thing where I remember him just saying like, it doesn't matter. Like things don't have to go right. Like whatever happens is a part of it and it's okay. So don't worry about that.

like any kind of rules in some ways. And there's a thing that you learn as a kid that you're supposed to pride yourself on, which is like hitting the mark and finding your light and knowing your lines. And I think that all of that stuff is like really dangerous because it just like leads to things being flat. Like when everybody is just like hitting their marks and we know what's going to happen take after take,

It's just human nature. Inevitably, you just fall onto something being just rote. And I think it lacks an energy and excitement. And we're in this unique position where you can do multiple takes, so why not take advantage of it and let it be something different each time within reason?

And those are things that I learned from my early experiences. Like, it's okay. I think because films are so expensive and there's so many moving parts,

we like to try to control it as much as possible. Where do you sit on that? Because I battle with this as an actor and also as a director sometimes about, you know, how much you should just sort of pay attention to the natural thing of it or how much you should adhere to the technical specifics of that particular shot. For instance, let's say the camera angle is really tight on you and you're sitting down and in the middle of the line, you have to stand up.

And because you're in a real tight shot, the cameraman asks you to stand up kind of slowly. Don't shoot up. Because if you shoot up, I lose you in the camera. I can't keep up with you. And so they ask you to kind of come up with, sometimes they call it a groucho, where you kind of come up kind of slow, like in a hunch.

But certain actors, myself sometimes, I'll be like, well, no, I got to shoot up because I'm pissed off. Like, so either widen your shot or just anticipate it. How much do you, like, are there times when you're a little bit more cooperative with that than other times? I mean, I find myself in that sometimes I just, I can't do it. As a director, sometimes I'll hesitate in even asking an actor to do it, but the shot might really need it. Where do you sit with all that stuff? The combination between the technical and the...

the natural in what you do? I guess it depends. I mean, every film is different. There's not really one way of approaching it. And there are times where I think it makes sense that the other night we were shooting and camera was behind me and I was moving towards the other actor. And just from years of doing it,

I knew to widen out a little bit, to favor the right side so that it was clear on them. And I remember as I was doing it, I was so ashamed.

You were accommodating. I hated myself so much. And I was like, this means that I'm not in the fucking moment because I'm aware the camera's there. And then afterwards they were like, can you widen out a little bit? I was like, oh, I thought I was already widening out as much as I was comfortable with. And I was fucking embarrassed. Yeah.

And now you're asking me to do more. It's kind of our job, though, isn't it? I mean, it's not... It's part of it, though, right? Yeah, when you're doing theater, right, Sean? Like, you don't have to accommodate the other part of the process, which is the camera or the lighting or stuff. Like, when we're doing movies or television, that is part of it. And I feel bad for pushing back on that as an actor. Like, my performance needs to stay pure and I don't even want to know about the camera. Yeah, but at every point of it, it is. Like, if you're doing the show, Sean, I imagine, like, you're always thinking about...

Don't upstage, make sure, right? -Like, you make sure not to-- -Yeah, all the time. You always play out. You have to play out. And also, there's faces staring at you. But it's distracting, right, Joaquin? Like, it knocks you out of it. You've got this big monologue as Oscar Levent, and then you're doing this moment, and at the same time, you're thinking like, "Fuck, can everybody hear me in the back row?" I'm sure you have those moments, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's terrifying. But, Joaquin, it distracts you out of the performance, though, yes?

Well, I think the job is to be as true to the moment as possible. And sometimes that's easier than other times for whatever reason. Sometimes I watch basketball players and it's just like going in for them. And other times it seems like they're really working at it and focusing. It's just one of those things. Sometimes you're in the flow and there's nothing. Those are the best moments when...

somebody can be making noise off-camera talking and you're not distracted by it. You could throw anything at you and you're just in it. Right. Because you're just in the flow. And then there's other times where it's a bit more difficult. It feels like it's so artificial, everything that's happening. And I guess the job in some ways is to try to make it feel as organic as possible.

And sometimes that's easier than other times. So I think if you're in it and you're in one of those moments, it's like, yeah, I can make that adjustment. It's not getting in the way. And there's other times where they go like, no, you have to adjust the camera because I'm not...

I can't do this. I don't really know why that happens. It's that level, it's that thing you started talking about, about that level of discomfort and embarrassment of like, I have to kind of commit to this thing and to really commit to it is kind of embarrassing. It's just weird as shit. And you're making that hard for me, but yeah. Yeah, that's what I want to talk about because all, you know, what I'm doing in this play is a big swing for the fences. It's like, this is embarrassing as all...

All hell. Like, I'm playing somebody that's nothing like me at all. Yeah. And then I see Joaquin do that over and over again. I'm like, gosh, how in the world do you get past that?

feeling of you know humility of leaving yourself so yeah believe yourself like over and over and over again it's just kind of fascinating i wonder if is the director i would imagine is a is a big big part of it right i mean you've worked with so many incredible directors that so clearly have pardon the term a vision and clear um you know i'm not going to pardon the term

But is that a big, big part of it for you when you're considering what to do next? Is it as much about the director as it is about the part, or is it more so? I mean, the director is it. It's kind of that simple, right? Because everything ultimately runs through them. Even if they're choosing the cinematographer and the editor separately,

everyone that they're working with, they're ultimately saying yes or no to which take is being used. Right. Especially because, you know, I like to do, to approach each take differently sometimes. There's a lot of choices that the director has. And so you have to really trust them that they're going to make the right choices because sometimes I will do things that

may not be right for the scene. And I'll know that. I'll know that this is probably not the right approach for the scene. I'll do it partially just to change things up, just to put me in this place where I don't really know what's going to happen. It suddenly just opens it up, the possibilities.

And there are times you go, "Fuck, I hope they don't use that one." Right, or if they use a little piece of that with one that's with a take that's more sort of normal, then it makes you look like a shit actor. You really have to trust the ingredients that the director is going to use downstream when he's cooking things together or she. Yeah, or they make you look like a genius.

Yeah, exactly. You use a little piece of something and you're like, oh, that was actually from an earlier part in the scene. That wasn't even my reaction for that line. Right. But that's like, that's great editing. So yeah, the filmmaker is everything.

Yeah, you're so reliant on the taste of a director. Todd Phillips certainly has it in spades. And the film that's coming out right now, Ari Aster, he seems like a guy that's just...

overflowing with genius. Uh, that trailer is stunning. I can't wait to see that film. Um, this is called bow is afraid. Bow is afraid. Um, how was making that? Because for, for, for the listener, it's, uh, if you haven't seen the trailer, it's a correct me if I'm wrong here, Joaquin, it, it's about a guy going to see his mom and the, uh, the sort of

The fear and sort of dreamscape or nightmarescape inside of his head as he approaches that event is where this film kind of takes us. Is that a shitty enough explanation of it?

Yeah, sounds good. That's just what I gathered from the trailer. But it's very sort of fantastical. And I don't know, I love sort of Spike Jonze stuff and Charlie Kaufman stuff. And this seems in that world and just another great example of that type of filmmaking. I'm so excited to see it. Did you love doing it?

I did love doing it. I have just great admiration for Ari and his approach. And very early on, I realized how perceptive and observant he was. And sometimes there are some scenes where you think like, okay, well, I can...

It's like, get away with it. Like, I have no choice, but I have to act through this, right? Because this would be very difficult to maintain this for like six hours. Right. So inevitably, there's going to be a wide shot and I'm going to be acting in this one at the end of the day, you know?

And that happens every once in a while and it's something you really want to avoid and it's horrible but sometimes you're just so fucking tired and you can't do it. And again, the voice creeps in just going, this is stupid. What are you doing? Stop taking this seriously. Go home. And so you have to fight that voice off but it's very difficult if

If the filmmaker has that same voice and is also going like, hey, let's just come on and wrap this up. And I knew very early on that Ari was not that filmmaker. Right. And so I think that we were just constantly pushing each other to commit to it as much as possible. And so there was no...

There was no kind of like, oh, let's cheat in this wide shot. We did one wide shot that was like, it's so ridiculously wide and it's such a brief moment, but I had to like, I wanted to like collapse in the take and I couldn't just like drop to my knees. I just was like, this is just ridiculous. It felt like too melodramatic or something. Drop to my knees. And yeah,

And it was, and it was, it's stupid looking back on it. I was like, I could have just dropped my knees and nobody would have known the difference. But I, I just, I just felt like I was, I was cheating if I, if I did that. Wow.

I love how honest you are about that. By the way, Jason, you asked him the question, like, how was it making it? And then you, like, took a moment to really, so often people are like, yeah, it was great. No, he's all honesty. I love it. No, it's fucking great. And it reminds me, Sean, how many late nights have you been like, we're not, it's getting too late and you just got to drop to your knees? I mean, it's got to be countless. I don't need a reason. I don't need the motivation. It gets me to sleep early. And we will be right back. And now back to the show.

Joaquin, I was just thinking about years ago, I remember when Amy, my ex-wife, was still on SNL and you came, I remember you came to SNL and you were shooting, you were with Casey Affleck and you guys were shooting. I'm still here. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that, man. Yeah, I was actually thinking about

About that today, I don't know why, I was remembering actually going to SNL because there was an actor that I ran into in the hallway and I can't remember who it was or I just don't want to say. And I was kind of like doing my shit for that movie. And she's somebody that I worked with and she seemed very shocked and concerned. And I remember the look on her face. I so desperately wanted to tell her, like...

It's okay, I'm okay. It's just a thing. So we made this commitment that we weren't going to tell anybody that it wasn't real. - So listener, this thing that he's talking about, "I'm Still Here," this was a documentary

about Joaquin quitting acting and becoming a rap star. Wait, I want to hear Joaquin tell it. Write that in a nutshell. Everybody thought it was real. They had no reason to think it wasn't real. Well, except that I was like 35 saying I'm retiring from acting to be a

But that's what made it so electric is because everyone wanted to be really sensitive to, oh, my God, what a tragic mistake this young actor is making. I can just tell you that at SNL that night that I was there, you were there. It was like late 2008, I think. I think Archie had just been born, and you were like... And I remember you were walking in, you guys were shooting stuff, and then I forget who the band was.

And you guys came down onto the floor on 8H and you guys are shooting it. And I remember everybody in the cast was like, what's going on? What is he, what is happening? Like nobody knew, like you really had everybody fooled. The train wreck is coming through. And like, yeah. But you know, it wasn't to fool other people. Like what we discovered is like,

the moment somebody knew what was going on, that it wasn't real, I became terrible. - Right, right, right. - I started being really hammy and winking at the camera. And I think the whole trick was to try to get it to feel as real as possible. And so the only way that it felt real was when other people believed it was happening, and it forced me to try to play it as believably as possible.

And so that's why we just didn't want to tell anybody because the moment, because there were some friends that, like actor friends that I would do some scenes with and

they, because they knew me so well, they figured it out. And I would inevitably just really start overdoing it, just really kind of hamming it up. And so we just discovered like very early on that when I, if somebody thought that it was real, it just made me embarrassed and scared. And then I would just kind of

be more internal with it and I think more believable. So then just don't tell anyone, right? Yeah. And it was, it was awkward and uncomfortable. And, and, and this girl that, that was this, this actress that was there, um,

She emailed me like a couple days later, and she just said, like, I know what you're doing. And I actually was, I was so relieved. Yeah, right. I was so relieved because I was so embarrassed. Did you respond? Did you confirm? I did not. I did not. Yeah. By the way, I tried to do this thing with this guy, Bob, this writer yesterday on set, and we were like, it's April Fool's, and we were like, and I don't do April Fool's, but I was like,

He was like, "Just pretend to fire me in front of the crew." And I was like, "Okay."

And then so we got later in the day and I'd sort of forgotten about it. And then he walked out and then we started this argument and it got really awkward. But I had to commit to it because in the middle of it, I'm like, fuck. And it felt so like sort of status wise, I felt shitty. Like an asshole. Yeah. And I hated that feeling. And I was like, why don't you get the fuck out? Well, why do you even bother showing up? If you're going to just pitch me shitty jokes and get the fuck. And I started going like that.

Anyway, we sort of got to the end of it and I finally said April Fool's after a few minutes and the fucking crew, it got really quiet and it wasn't fun. No. It made them all feel uncomfortable. It fucking sucked. Wait, Wok, how did that all end up? I don't remember how that all finished up. What was... When did the curtain...

come down on all of that? Was it on the release of it or...? Yeah, on the release. And at that point, we'd been shooting for, like, two years, I think, or a year and a half or something. And I was... I had been so looking forward to this moment of saying, like, it wasn't real. Yeah. Because it had just been so uncomfortable and I just had avoided so many friends because I just didn't know how to kind of, like, keep up the roots. Like, in two years. And then...

So I can't remember how we kind of, you know, released it and said, oh, it wasn't real. Nobody believed us. They suddenly thought like, oh, yeah, of course. Now, after you fucked your career, you're trying to say that this is like this. Oh, they thought you like had regrets trying to save your career and come back. No way. And I was like, oh, fucking can't can't win. No way.

But then you showed them what was up, what you came back with the master, right? Wasn't that what followed? Well, that was, yeah. I mean, the thing is, is that as a product of this, of I'm Still Here, I think at that point, a lot of people...

that maybe would consider hiring me were like, even if it's not real, you have to be kind of fucking nuts to do this. So he's probably not somebody you want to work with anyways. And I remember my options... But PTA was like, bring it on. Yeah, the options at the time were just left a lot to be desired in terms of work. And I remember at one point just really being...

desperate and feeling like, well, I actually really fucked myself.

And I can't get a job. And I was really considering doing this movie that was a terrible movie. I knew it was terrible. But I was like, I just have to get back and show people that this wasn't fucking real. No fucking way. And I almost did it. And actually, my agent, Boomer, who was actually the assistant of my original agent, Patrick Weitzel...

And he started working with me. At first I was like, oh, this fucking bait and switch. Like, I'm working with your assistant now. This is bullshit. And then I remember talking to Boomer and I was saying, look, man, I'm just, I'm lost. I'm desperate. It's the first time in my life, like, I don't feel like I know what to do. And I'm asking for advice.

um i've never done that you know i always really have a strong sense of like what i want to do and he was like do you have to do this movie i said what do you mean he goes does it matter to you and i was like no he goes well then why are you doing it and i i really needed that at that moment like i i just i felt so fucking lost and confused um and it was really it was a really important moment for me and so i i said no to the movie and um

And then a couple months later, Amanda Demme reached out to me and she said, hey, Paul's trying to get in touch with you. No way. And he sent the script over. I remember looking through the script and there was Freddie and Master. And I was like halfway through and I was like, there's no way he's calling me for one of those parts. Right.

So I called him, I said, "What character am I supposed to read?" Because I figured it was like something that pops up for a couple scenes. And he was like, "Freddy."

And I didn't even finish the script and I had to prevent myself from saying like, yes, right there. Cause it was like halfway through and I was like, just fuck. Yeah. I couldn't believe he wanted me for, for that. That's so cool. No, that's, that's me. Before we let you go, I want to ask you just real quickly about Napoleon. And it's one of the movies I'm looking most forward to seeing coming up. Yeah.

It seems like that was a really robust shoot. I mean, period, and Ridley Scott, and that subject matter. I mean, was it as epic as it sounds like? What can you tell us about that, if anything? Yeah, it was. It was a fucking massive production. The amazing thing about Ridley is...

He's like overseeing this massive machine. Just like hundreds of extras, eight cameras, you know, these huge locations. And he can just pivot like that. He could arrive on set and make a discovery in the moment and feel like the scene is maybe leading in like a new direction. And he's just fine. Like he'll adjust...

He will adjust the camera, he will adjust to the performance, like if there's something that feels honest and real and like a worthwhile exploration. He'll turn a steamer ship around, right? And it's so impressive to me because, yeah, I mean, I don't know how much we were spending a day, but it was a lot. And I had a great experience with him, you know, all those years ago on Gladiator. And so I just was always...

Always wanted to work with him again. That's so cool. You know, I know we're going to let you go because you're going to get back, but, you know...

Hearing you talk, I've never met you. I know you probably hate this, but I'm a huge fan of yours and you are an inspiration to me and tons of other actors. I'm losing so much respect for you. I do. I know you hate that because it feels false, but it's not. But you're married. You have a baby boy. You have purpose with animal rights activism. You have a great career. You have all this stuff going on in your life. Are you able to...

sit back and just kind of absorb all that? Or do you have a defense mechanism where you're just like, no, I got to, I just, I know everything's great. I just got to keep going. I just got to keep going to challenge myself the next thing. Or can you really sit back and, and, and absorb all the great things that have happened to you? As you get older, it all becomes easier. I'm fully cognizant of what a charmed life I have. It is,

exceeded my expectations or my greatest dreams. I'm so fucking grateful for what I have, the family and friends that I have and the opportunity for work. I never imagined it would be like this and it has been so fulfilling. So I really do appreciate it and value it.

the opportunity that I've had. But I still want more experiences. I just love making films. I love collaborating with people. It's just so exciting to do

talk about makeup and hair and like you're sitting around with all these like people that are really good at what they do. Yeah. And you get to kind of like create something together. Yeah. And it's just an incredible opportunity. I love that you said that because you said it before too and you were talking about all the people on set and I don't think people appreciate it enough and I love that you said it.

is like-- And I always think about it, like, everybody on set, no matter what their job is, everybody's a filmmaker. Everybody is part of the process in that way. And I don't-- And too often people get-- You see people who sort of--

I don't know, spend the time-- They don't spend the time or the energy and they sort of disregard those people. It's like, "Motherfucker, every single person here is making this film together." There's nobody there that doesn't have to be there. -Yeah. -Right. It's something a lot of people don't realize. Well, Wok, you're incredible at it. Please keep going. We'll take twice as much. But I know you got--

You got a kid to raise and Rooney to hang out with. She's awesome too. Please say hi to her. Thank her. You know, she found us our dog. We've got a brand new dog. She found us our dog, our dog Gary. He's a real cutie.

We love you and thank you and say hi to Todd and Larry and have a great day at work. I hope this has been okay. I feel like it was... No, dude, it's been awesome. You've been very, very generous. Wait, before you go, how do you get into Joker? No. Yeah. See, we ended up talking about the process and nobody got hurt. No, but in a good way. Thank you, man. Thank you for taking the time, especially because I know you're about to start work. Very nice of you to do this, buddy. Very nice. No, thank you guys. Honestly, this is...

It was painless. Painless. Kind of. We'll take it. Well, when you're done, hurry home and we'll talk some more. Okay, great. Thank you all so much. Thank you, dude. Nice to meet you. Have a good day. See you, man. Bye, Walk. Bye.

Man. Amazing. No, that's a... That's an artist. This is an actor. This is an artist. And did you know him, Jason, for a long time? Yes. Now, we don't spend every day with one another by any stretch, but we've known each other for a long time. We've got some very close mutual friends. And, you know, he's a guy I would love to talk to.

further with, deeply with, you know, at length with. But as you can tell, he doesn't really enjoy talking about the stuff that we're all fascinated with about him. You know, and that's probably why he's so goddamn good at what he does is because maybe he just doesn't care to look at, you know, how the magic trick is done. He just, it's something he's great at. It's something that he, it

Well, that's what I was getting at. And he was like, no, no, no, you know, I forgive those people for, you know, talking about the process. But I meant more about the people who go out of their way. They're like, look at my process. And it's so difficult what I do. That's what I meant. When they offer it first, yeah. Yeah, when they offer it first and they're like, my whole thing, my whole identity is wrapped around how I do it.

And I want everybody to know and to think that and be impressed by my process, which he is like couldn't be further removed from that. He's like, man, I don't want to tell you any of it. He's also one of those actors I love watching and trying to understand what that character must be thinking. Like he's a very internal actor and you kind of –

If I knew what he was thinking and I knew how he was doing it, or if I knew that much about him, if he did a bunch of press and all that stuff, it'd be hard for me to buy him being somebody else. So I kind of like that he's mysterious. Well, you watch him do, like, I was thinking the last thing I saw him in was Joker, and you watch him in that performance. Amazing. Yeah, incredible. And...

You know, millions of people love it. Some people don't. Whatever you think, when you watch him, he's so compelling, Jason, like you say, because you're like, what is he...

he's so inhabiting it in those moments. And he has these moments where he takes, and you're watching and you're thinking like exactly that. What is he thinking? How is he, where is he now? Where it says he's more into the work than all of the other stuff. But he's also, I don't know. I mean, if, if, if he manages to do something that I love when I watch actors is, uh,

Their ability to communicate vulnerability and humanness and flaws and elements of being broken because we're all broken. We're all vulnerable, but we all learn these different, you know, skins of trying to like hide

And he is so courageous, just as a person who was talking about making a fool out of himself, of being kind of warts and all, like look at all my flaws. And he finds those in every character because that's all part of it, I suppose, is just being not fully put together, you know, with his characters. He's only the second, but he is only the second guest we've had who is killing cigs during the interview. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Sean Penn was the other one, right? Yeah. You haven't smoked yet during an interview, have you? No, I did when I was in London. Remember, I was recording from London. I did a couple of times. So what was that called if you smoked a cigarette over there? Crushing. Not crushing, but it's crushing.

Don't say it. Don't say it. We'll have to lift it. We know what you're going to say. Jesus, Sean. Don't say it. I was just curious. I don't know what it's called. Sean, you're trying to bait him into a cancellation. Are you looking to recast? You're looking for a new third? No, you can crush some fags over here. Wait, Sean. Oh, Jesus, Sean, for fuck's sake. What is wrong with you? I'm talking about Sarah. What would the term be, though, speaking of which, if you liked men and you liked women? Yeah.

You'd be... Oh, that you would be. Bye! Guys! We haven't done just a straight up bye yet. I know. Smart. Smart. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbico, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarff.

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