"Bono"
01:06:57 Share

It's been a minute. It's been a minute since we've been able to kind of wrap, just us, without the other guys. And it's really important to me for you guys to know how important you guys are to me because the success of SmartList has all just been because of you, the listener. So I'm always just looking to put you guys first. Oh, my God.

I really got to take this, you guys. Hello? Uh, I have not renewed my warranty. Why? Welcome to Smartless. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less.

The only time this guy's on first is when it's his guest. Otherwise, you're late, you're chewing. I did a lot of chewing before I just finished. Do you have respect for this guest? I do have respect for this guest, yeah, a lot.

Really? Yes, on a lot of levels. Well, we'll see. Yes. Hi. Sean clearly does not have respect for this guest. Hi, Sean. Hi, Will. How are you? I'm good. Are you having some sugar and milk? I am, actually. What are you having with it? Just a little bit of... Drop of tea. Oh. I sent Jason this thing. By the way, you haven't had your father-in-law, Paul Anka, on the show yet. It's embarrassing. Well, I was thinking about that. I was at dinner with him last night, and then I thought...

Maybe one of you guys. I feel like Michael Grant Terry, our incredible producer, is working on that and that it's a scheduling thing. I feel like we have officially gone out to him. Yeah, I feel like it's so good. Watch him wriggle. It's amazing. I feel like we've gone out to him when you had dinner with him last night. I know. You could have just said, hey, I feel like it's a...

He was very excited to hear that you're a Canadian. I'm surprised he didn't know that already. Yeah, me neither. I sent you and your wife a nice email about him and about the inspiration for his song Diana, which was a huge hit, which he wrote when he was like 16. 16. Is this the guest today? No, no, it's Paul Anka. Paul went down to New York and recorded all these tunes, these huge hits. You know, he wrote My Way amongst other great things. And that song, Diana, he was 16 years old. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Yeah.

And he wrote about this woman who she just recently passed away and she claimed that it, like, it dogged her for her whole life. I'm like, yeah, it's pretty cool to have Paul Anka write a song about you. It is. You know what I was doing when I was 16 years old? I was going to ask you what you were doing when you were 16. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Go ahead, Sean. I was in shoplifting Skittles. No, I did shoplift something. I stole a turkey sandwich when I was in college and got arrested for it. Jesus. But anyway, when I was 16, I was in my room and I listened to Wham! And I listened to like Wham! rap. And I would try, I memorized all the lyrics. Shocker. I mean, Sean. And I'm in my room like acting like I'm in Wham! And I learned all the words. And my mom completely walked in on me and,

And then you cover like, "Oh, no, I was just cleaning my room." -Right. -It was so embarrassing. And she saw you 'cause she was-- She came in on the right side.

She had her head turned to the right. The door cracked open just when I looked in. And you were doing Wham because you hadn't learned Frankie Goes to Hollywood lyrics yet or what's going on? You just wanted to go through all the different... George Michael and Andrew Ridgely. Ridgely. Ridgely. Ridgely. Ridgely. It was kind of like... Look how mad Sean got when he said Ridgely. Ridgely.

God, I hope that's a surprise guest today. Andrew Ridgely. Guys, we have Andrew Ridgely on. Jason wanted me to tell you about my nerve thing, but maybe I'll do that in the next show. I wanted to tell, you wanted to tell me what? You wanted me to tell Will about my neck procedure. I did? Oh, yeah. I definitely want to hear about that. Let me carve out some time so I can hear about your neck issues. Speaking of time. Did I say that at the party the other night? No, you said it like... That you should two weeks ago.

Speaking of time, we don't have a ton of time because we've already started late. I was late, sorry. And Jason was right. I'm a little bit—I'm very excited about our guests. You know, as you think about an intro and how you introduce somebody, you think about what they've done. And I thought about this for a long time and where you start because, you know, we often have guests on who wear a lot of different hats.

But they start somewhere, but then they do other things. Sometimes it's a hobby, but sometimes it's something that they might be good at. Our guest today is someone who has started almost in concert their art, and their art was informed by what they saw in the world around them. And it drove their art to incredible heights.

but in that time there was always this message about what was going on in the world around him and um he along with his three bandmates uh created a band together when they were very young that was uh again just always a reflection of of what they saw and what they felt in the world

And then they didn't just do that and just let it be part of their art. It's almost like... I'm getting nervous that I'm not worthy. Their activism became part of their art. And I'm starting to sweat. And they didn't just lend their name or write a check and wave and say, I gave. They went and got in the trenches. This person has...

been around the world, whether it's fighting poverty and fighting hunger. This person, I think maybe no single soul human has ever done more to raise awareness and money and serve as an agency for change in the fight against AIDS. And all of that sort of in a lot of ways kind of

It almost overwhelms what a great artist he is. This person is... It's so hard. I can't even... I'm just bubbling to get it out because he'll tell you everything. He's got a new book out that just came out called Surrender.

Guys, it's Bono. Oh, my. It's Elton John, actually. Bob Geldof. You know, Sean Penn. Julie Roberts. Wow. It's all of us. Oh, my God. What an honor to have you join us. My goodness. I have been such a huge fan of yours for so, so long. This is crazy. So long. Do you know, just like three weeks ago or four weeks ago, I had dinner with, and forgive me, I don't know if I say the edge or just edge.

That will do. Okay. That's just the. Just the. Uh-huh. And he was, I was picking his brain. I can't believe I'm, by the way, it's such an honor to meet you. A huge fan. I mean, Joshua Tree was like a huge part of my life in high school. It was just massive. And anyway, I was talking to the about that and at dinner and he was singing your praises as of course you would expect, but he was explaining how,

how different you both are and that's what makes part of the whole band work is that, you know, he doesn't like the spotlight. He likes to be in the back. He likes to play like he almost doesn't like to be even seen. And I thought that was fascinating. And he also said that... Sorry, I'm almost done. This is one of those moments I wish Sean was at a loss for words, but he's not. Okay, go ahead. He also said, I said, Joshua Tree was such a huge part of my life in high school that

Tell me about how that happened. He said, you know, during the time of Madonna and Michael Jackson and George Michael and all these kind of amazing people in their own right, you guys came along with this kind of...

out of left field, this band that was just, the timing was perfect for you guys and that's also what helped make that album so huge. It was just another, the option that wasn't out there. Huh, at the end of all that, not even a question mark. No. Well, I think what you're saying, Sean, and by the way, there's an altar for you in Dingle in, um,

Where my grandparents are from. Just so you know. Yeah, yeah, there's an altar there. Yeah, we brought a bit of black and white to these very, these people were very colorful and very vivid. And we arrived in Anton Corbin photography, very, very black and white. In fact, so black and white that our manager, Paul McGinnis, used to say, now don't look like the band too stupid to enjoy being at number one now, will you? LAUGHTER

But yeah, the decade taste forgot was very good to us. And I'm very, very grateful. And Edge is indeed a kind of anti-guitar hero, which is, you know, he's like the most extraordinary person, forget guitar player, genius, probably the most influential guitar player of the last 30 years. The only one who won't tell you is him. And yeah, it's good to get time with him.

there, Sean. I always treasure it when I get time with him and he only lives 100 yards from where I'm sitting right now. In fact, he called me just before I came on. He was singing your praises as of course you would expect. So Bono, about that sort of opposites and I'm sure that's an exaggeration but clearly there are some different lanes that each one of you four occupy in the band slash family and

Jason loves lanes. You love lanes. I love a lane. I love a bucket. No, I actually don't do buckets. Buckets is overdone today. Or silos. But talk to us about how you guys manage those dynamics where everyone kind of has their lane, but then there's good overlap sometimes when you guys need to collaborate. Is it something that you guys keep an eye on so that the harmony literally and figuratively stays intact? Yeah. Well, I mean, look, from...

the podcast I have overheard, plugged into, enjoyed. You're obviously a band too. It's a power trio, isn't that? You're things like Cream or The Police or Nirvana. Don't be Rush. But progressive rock is actually one of the only things myself and Edge fall out over. But yeah, being in a band, it's tricky. And...

And then the older you get, you know, it gets even trickier because when you grew up together, you're used to taking bits out of each other, you know, and it's,

because people know where you've come from. They know your memories. I think that's the best definition I heard of really knowing someone is you know their memories. You know how they got them. And so they will remind you, the band will remind you of how far away from yourself you've gotten. And at a certain point, people don't want to be reminded of that. I'm always amazed that we're still together because it's rough. I mean, you're as good as the arguments you get.

But at a certain point when people are doing well, the male loves to be the lord of his own domain, you know. And you can just imagine why people just say, ah, fuck this. I'm out of here. I'm really...

Genuinely expect and the band breaks up all the time. It's the truth We just don't announce it. No, we get back together. Just never fall. You can't be grateful. We do Follow through on it. Well, you know, it's funny you say that Bono cuz I so your book I mentioned that your book has come out and you've been on tour supporting it you you've done you did a date and and now you're announcing that you're gonna go on tour and do some more dates, which is so excellent and

So I read parts of your book all the way through and actually I heard that somebody told me that that's kind of how you want people to do it, kind of dip in and out. So I...

40 short stories. It works. I've constructed it as 40 short stories as well as the sort of beginning, middle, and end arc. And so the chapters... And there's pictures as well, special pictures, you know, little drawings for you, Will, so you can keep... Well, they're drawings that made it much easier. If it was a pop-up book, I'm all in. I just stared at them. These guys, I have to explain what a book is to them. But you should know... So, Bonham, but you talk about you guys breaking up. So you start...

you guys get to know each other when you're very young, you meet through mutual friends. You're very, and, and, and not, not only do you guys know about each other, this is what I was getting to, but the world knows as, as what you guys have grown up together and you've grown up in a world and the world has watched you guys grow up together. And it's funny. You mentioned a few times in the book that,

the home in which you grew up, 10 Cedarwood Road. And I got to the point, I'm almost embarrassed to say, that I Googled it on Google Maps because I wanted to look and I wanted to kind of get a feel of it as I was reading your descriptions of jumping around in the living room, listening to the Ramones, and your dad coming home and you being there with Allie and all these various sort of anecdotes you had that really were such a window into your life and all these different stages. And as I put it in Google,

It says Bono Vox Childhood House. And I thought, fucking Google knows that that's where you grew up. The world knows. The world knows a lot of your memories. But just on the outside, now you're sharing all of this stuff from the inside. How was the experience of writing this book and kind of bearing it all in a way? It's called Surrender. So did it feel like that?

That's still a word I'm ganging up on, having quite got to fully grasp or fathom the title of my own book. But I, yeah, you know, I really, I decided to go there and it's,

you know, go all the way. It's not a confessional, but it is kind of anatomical. And if you want to see the band in a rehearsal room or in the studio or the sort of struggles around it with each other and with the world around us, I'm going to write about it in a little cross section. Same as an activist, the same in other areas of my life, my family life. I just decided to go there. And then I said I'll afterwards decide if I publish it.

And then I got caught in it. And I find myself, the real value of writing a book like this is you sort of retrieve memories from the kind of river. You drudge them somehow out of the sewer, but, you know, you find them. And that's beautiful, even the one about my father coming home and I had just brought Ali Stewart. I just brought her home. And I was showing her my little box room room

And I swear I wasn't in bed with her. I was on the bed with her. And it was the one time my father came home in the middle of the day. It was Wednesday. And he's like, are you in there? What are you doing home? I said, it's a half day. And he goes, what?

I said, what are you doing home? I can do what I like. And then I heard him coming up the stairs. And I'm like, what are we going to do? And she's looking at me and I say, panic. She said, I'm not going to panic. I said, get under the bed. And she's like, what? I have nothing to be ashamed of. Get under the bed. So she gets under the bed. And the dad comes and he goes, you know, are you okay?

And I'm like, don't be, this is not going to be the day that he asks me how I am doing existentially. And then he comes in and he sits on the bed. Oh, God. So Ali has two usens on top of her and she's going to stay that way for quite some time. But I, if I hadn't written the book, I wouldn't have remembered that. I wouldn't be talking to you about it now. And the stuff with my mother, you know, because I lost my mother at an early age. I just, I found all these, I found her.

And then with the show that you mentioned, you know, the half-man show, we call it in the band. It's not even a one-man show. I'm finding that I'm spending time with my father and my mother because I kind of become my father as part of the show. And I'm starting to, I mean, I always loved him, but I'm starting to like him, which is mad. As I become him in the show, I take his voice and I...

And he made me laugh. He's made me laugh a lot. So the book has given me a lot, I will say that. So thank you for following me. You talk, Bono, in the book again about your relationship with your dad in about that moment when you're in the chapel and you have this really kind of after he's died. I found that to be really something that's...

the ability to sort of, I don't know if you said you apologized, but you had a kind of almost a conversation with your dad, yeah? Yeah, it was an apology. It was a very combative relationship. Not without humor, but combative. And I sort of, I was born with my fists up. So that's why you understand this word surrender does not come natural to me.

And, yeah, after a while I did realise maybe I wasn't there for him when he was going through so much. He'd lost my mother. There was three Irish males kind of screaming at each other in the house and one of them was a very precocious, you know, annoying one. That would be me. And I was probably torturing him. And after he passed away I did have a moment where,

where I went up and I like going to churches actually better when there's no service on them. And especially in the language, I don't understand. Because then I get to feel the things without having to parse them, you know, intellectually. And I was just, it was an empty chapel. And yeah, I apologized to my father. And my theology doesn't allow me the belief that he was listening.

But I was listening to myself. And there's a romantic part of me who does believe he was listening. And something did change in me. And I, yeah, I think my voice changed. You walk different. After you confess things, people, you know, they say this coming out of the confession box. That's for Irish Catholics. But, you know, the Jews have your therapists. We have the priests.

But people emerge from these sessions different, walk different. They, you know, so much lighter.

And, yeah, my voice changed a bit around that time and my father was a tenor. Jason, anything you want to get off your chest right now, go ahead. Bono's here. Father Bono is here. Well, but talk a little bit more about that, about that process of going through the memories and then writing those down in a literal, accurate sense in comparison to the way I would imagine you've been doing it for years and years as a songwriter. Yeah.

talking about yourself, your feelings, your thoughts on things, your perspective on the world in much more of a metaphorical way, in a poetic way, in a rhyming way. Did you find yourself going through the same themes and issues and getting more from it in that sort of catharsis exercise by writing in literal terms as opposed to metaphor?

That's very actorly of you. And I appreciate that question. Catharsis is exactly right word. But it's very different, you know, writing a book, my own book, what I wrote myself. You know, it's different to writing songs. With songs, I tend to find sort of landscapes, emotional landscapes, feelings. I want to kind of...

enter into it. They're very abstract or bleak often. And then I'll find a concrete situation, as you referred to, Will, in your very kind introduction, you know, I will use a real life situation. But songwriting for me is primarily investigation, inquiry into the emotions around an issue. Here with the book,

And remember, it's really far-fetched already. You know, it's sort of beyond navel-gazing. You know, why would you foist your meme-wire? I call it a meme-wire. And it should really be a wee-mwire because I'm in loads of bands, actually. But it is, I think, okay to share these thoughts

because they might be useful to other people. And at the very least, they might explain what I've been doing with my life to my family and friends, you know. But it was different. You know, I love that you said you apologized to your father because my father just apologized to me about leaving early and leaving us with nothing. He didn't apologize, no. I was going to say, wait, what? What?

But I did, but Bono, I did one of those ancestry shows where they trace your ancestry. And all of my relatives are from Dingle and County Cary. And we, my grandfather, my dad's side, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, they have all this information. And every single one of them, I'm not exaggerating, every single one of them

for drunken behavior, beating people up. I visited the jail where they all went. It was an insane, insane ancestry of craziness. Sean, I'm here to absolve you of that guilt because those were days where the British...

were responsible for incarceration. And we called those people rebels, okay? Okay. And that's why they were being put away. And yes, these are slurs on their reputation. And have you asked yourself the question, Sean, just why do my relatives speak in a Jamaican accent?

or the other way around. Have you ever gone, gosh, Bob Marley sounds a lot like he's from Dingle, like my grandparents. One, two, three, the whole thing gonna be all right. Oh, yeah. That very same song can be, I can explain it if you want, but you don't have to. I mean, this is- But wait, Bono, I do want you to explain it because you do very famously, I've watched it

a dozen times over the years, your introduction of Bob Marley into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Ah, you did? Oh, many times, man. I love it. It's one of the great speeches. I always find speeches like that to be my favorite kind, like induction speeches, things like that, when people really think about it. I don't know, there's something about it that kind of... And that is one of the great ones. And you talk about...

the similarities. Why is an Irishman inducting a Jamaican? And what are the similarities? And the audience kind of laughed. He said, bear with me. Yeah. But then you, and one of the things you talk about, the British, you're like, everything all clear now. The green, the herb, you mentioned that a bunch of times. And you talk about when the jackboots of colonialism retreat, what it means to,

not just to get up, but to stay standing up. There's so many great themes in there. Oh, that's great. I fucking loved it. I will let you remember that. It kept it in the Bob Marley Museum in Kingston. And he's from Irish town, of course. And it turns out there were some indentured people forcefully taken to, Irish people taken to the Caribbean. It's not the same thing as slavery or anything like it, but it was rough.

And there were, at the time of James I and Cromwell, up to, I think, I mean, it's disputed, but 3,000 to 40,000 from Dingle and from Kerry. Honestly, I'm not joking this. I'm not smoking Dewey at this point. And, you know, it's interesting. But I think we are spiritually also quite different.

close to that kind of the Bob Marley way of the world where he could sing of his faith, for example. When U2 dropped our second album,

And we missed the bit about singing songs about girls before we got onto God, like Van Morrison. And we started off with God. And our manager was going, this is not going to go well. And Chris Blackwell, who discovered Bob Marley and founded Island Records that we were signed to, he was like, oh no, you know, no. This is all part of it, you know, the whole world. And...

And sort of Irish people and Jamaicans, I think we're in, I like to think at our best, we have this kind of, we work with body, spirit, and soul. That's quite a pretentious thing for your smartless podcast, but there you go. I believe it. Our listeners are nothing but, if not pretentious. And we will be right back. And now, back to the show.

Bono, I wanted to ask you about Speaking Great Concerts, one of the all-time great live records. You guys at Red Rocks, you two. And there's that great beginning of "Sunday Bloody Sunday" when you start and you say, "There's been a lot of talk about this next song. Maybe too much talk. This song is not a rebel song." By the way, I'm not reading it. I've got it memorized since it came out. This song is "Sunday Bloody Sunday."

the number of times I've uttered those words and not known what they meant and didn't know what they meant at the time when you said them. And it was almost impromptu, or it was impromptu. If you could maybe tell us a little bit about that introduction to Sunday Bloody Sunday. It was this, with these old hangovers on us, you know, after a Saturday night. I...

This song is a very powerful song. I think of it strangely as like a Marley song. Always think about it a little bit like that. And while Edge was working on it in Dublin, I was working on it in Jamaica, funnily enough, on my honeymoon, having to try and explain to my missus why our honeymoon album's going to be called War. But...

Yeah, it's a powerful song, but it kind of got us into some trouble and where people thought we were taking sides in, you know, in a country which was almost at civil war on sectarian lines. And, you know, there's only, we say there's one and a half Catholics in U2. So you've got Larry Mullen, and I consider myself, because my father was Catholic...

half Catholic, but I was raised in the Church of Ireland. And then you have the two Brits in the band, Adam and Edge. So they came in from the UK. So we were like a social experiment, you two at the time. And we didn't want to get caught up in this Sunday blues, Sunday rah, rah, rah, let's raise some money for the paramilitaries to go and

hurt people and worse, you know, extinguish lives with these guns that were bought. And, you know, in all across America, people were, you know, were tin cupping and looking for money for the freedom fighters. And it wasn't as simple as freedom fighting. And my father was a Catholic, but he was very suspicious of nationalism.

And he used to say, he had this great line, he'd quote the playwright Singh, he'd say, what is Ireland but the land that keeps my feet from getting wet? And I'd like, that's a great quote. When I was writing the book, I discovered he made it up. Singh never said that.

And it's a great book because it's just saying, just be careful about boundaries. And, you know, countries are just stories you tell yourself. And you want to be very careful about going to war with your next door neighbor. And so I used to introduce it. And I'm sure it's an annoying sound I make when I'm saying that because I suffered from a telephone voice on stage, like really...

I don't know. It's a funny sound. It doesn't sound like me. Edge and I went to see a film called Killing Bono. He was going to enjoy it a little more than me. And the actor played, I said, he doesn't sound like me though, does he, Edge? And he said, no, he does. He sounds like the way you speak on stage or on the telly.

And he's been doing his research on Google. That's a very good Bono, but it's your telephone voice Bono. And so when I hear, there's been a lot of talk about this song. Right. I'm like, oh, cool. Just cool. Just turn it down a little bit. But...

But that's me in the 80s. And, you know, I still feel as strong about it. I'm just, you know, I just wouldn't. I hate to break it to you, man, but it's iconic. So I'm sorry. I apologize for the rest of the world. Wait, sidebar. Are you sitting on the floor? Yeah, he is. Yeah, man. He keeps it real down there. All right, because there's a couch right now. Thanks. Yeah, I'm bubbling, doubling, man.

We sit on the floor. My favorite thing. We eat our children. Sean, don't start a cute – you've got a TV behind you that you've never turned on. By the way, that is so true. Puts on the Yule log on that thing. Hey, Bono, talk to us about your – music is always so passionate and authentic. It always feels like you're writing and you're singing from the heart.

And that takes a lot of passion to be that genuine. Have you found that the older you've gotten, the smarter you've gotten, the more spiritual intelligence, informational intelligence, emotional intelligence, that the passion for things that don't make sense for you, like maybe when you were younger, that now do make sense for you, does the passion go away?

go down and make it harder to write and sing more passionately because you simply have more things figured out and that you're just, or you're easier with things or you're not pushing back against things. You're letting, you know, I just find that as I get older, I'm just like, ah,

I'm not going to sweat the small shit as much anymore. And it's just sort of a maturation. By the way, for Jason, like passion and soul, it's all like a math equation. Go ahead, Bonham. I'm not sure my IQ is high enough to actually understand that question. But my EQ can figure it out. Uh-huh.

You know, yeah, was it... Oh, my God, I think it was Seinfeld who said, you know, when he got to six, he had no problem, you know, just turning people down. He goes, nah, can't do that. And he said when he gets to 70, he just won't reply. I have...

Yeah, I've, I'm, who's the guy in, the villain on James Bond? Dr. No, I'm Dr. Yes. And I try to solve problems for people I shouldn't be necessarily. In my activism, I do tend to help God across the road like she's a little old lady. Come on, God.

I don't know exactly what to do here. I am actually, and part of the process of writing the book is just actually just trying to be in the moment. I'm in more and just, and listening. I'm really, there's this Franciscan friar called Richard Rohr who I just, he's just a genius. He's just, he's amazing. And I read him. He's got a place called Center of...

action and contemplation out there in Albuquerque, the center of action and contemplation. And I like that order. But I might need to reverse it. You know, I might need to do some more contemplating before I act. And I'm getting to that. Yeah, you can't... How many more blows have you got to throw?

And this sort of pushing your shoulder against the door, I mean, I was used to it, you know, politically, whether it was...

you know, people who didn't want to see me or didn't want to meet the activists that I represent fighting for universal access to AIDS, drugs, or whatever, I'd be ready to put my shoulder to the door, break it down, you know, but now I'm sort of thinking, maybe there's a key in the lock. Maybe just turn it and, you know, stop fighting. I think, Sean, by the way, didn't in college you say that there were a lot of blows in the Center for Action, which is what you guys called behind the...

Behind the soda machine? Yeah. Sorry. Williams? Does your father call you Williams? Yeah, he does. My mother calls me William. Be quiet. But I do want to, you know, one of the things, Bono, before I read your book or read parts of your book and read all this stuff about what you've been doing, I had seen years ago

I don't know if you're aware of it, but Frontline did a two-part piece, a documentary series on the age of AIDS. And I thought at the time, I remember thinking like, oh, we've all read everything about AIDS. I mean, how much more can there be? And it was absolutely illuminating. This is like 2006, I think. And a big part of it was they focused a lot on what you did in terms of not just raising money. And this always struck me. And I've talked about it a lot over the years to various people. Anybody will listen.

At a time when, especially this country, needed to really step up and help combat AIDS in Africa, you came over here and you reached across lines and you ended up in a meeting with... I know you first met with Paul O'Neill and then you went over to Africa and did amazing things and illuminated him. He was then Secretary of the Treasury. But then you also...

You reached across and you appealed to Jesse Helms and in effect you said, you're a Christian, I'm a Christian, and I know that you've publicly stated that AIDS is a result of an immoral life or whatever it was that he said. And you said, but we have an obligation because this is what God would do. And you spoke to him and your faith really drove you in that. And you got him to completely change his position. Yes.

And that led to the biggest ever amount of money and really just sparked the US getting involved in giving money to AIDS which continues to this day. Yeah, if you're American, you're an AIDS activist, isn't that amazing? I tell some people that and they go, "I don't wanna be one." Well, you are. That's the largest health intervention in the history of medicine to fight a single disease up until this recent pandemic.

And it was Bush and conservatives got involved. It started with Nancy Pelosi, actually. Her first speech on the floor of the Congress as a...

as she arrived to the Capitol was about AIDS. So many other people worked for this. And some of the better meetings I had were actually with, you know, staffers and policy wonks. And, you know, we used to meet, you know, on Friday nights, I'd find out which pubs they were going to. And I would, you know, meet the people. I'd meet, you know, that's the way to do it. It's not all principle to principle as it was, you know. But then, you know, yeah, Jesse had this thing and he...

Jesse Hamm's a bit old cold warrior, but he repented on the steps of the Senate for the way he talked about HIV AIDS. And he actually, and I used, of course, the scriptures, which I, you know, as a writer, you know, whether it's Bob Dylan, whether it's Nick Cave, whether it's, you know, it's all my, Leonard Cohen, you know, my favorite writers, all versed in the scriptures. And, you know, and I went after him because my attitude was so,

So who would Jesus be hanging out with here? And where's the judgmental part of Jesus? Jesus didn't speak in judgment about anybody. In fact, the only thing Jesus spoke in judgment about was the way we treat the poor. And he was stopped in his tracks. And I said, that's...

People think that Jesus is focused on your pants, what's going on in your pants. What vision of God do we have? It's like we put ourself or our bad relative in the place of God. And of course, God has huge and gigantic love.

And it's just so obvious. You don't even have to win the argument. Also known as common sense, God. Yes. Yeah, I like to think so. And anyway, these drugs were transformative and I was just lucky to be part of it. And reaching out though across the aisle, that was...

That's a hard thing to do in America today. It's getting harder and harder. It's gotten harder. You would think that since then it would be – and again, if anything, a lot of sort of very right-wing Christianity has been weaponized, what they're saying, in a way that doesn't seem – that's sort of incongruous with the actual notion of –

It's ridiculous. It is ridiculous. From your perspective over there, with fresh eyes of not being immersed in America, does it seem like there might be one obvious thing that you might recommend to us to focus on that would bring both sides together? Or can you come back over and say the...

Yeah, what would you, as you put the commonality of faith with Jesse Helms and you, what would be the common thing that might bring both sides together nowadays over here, I wonder?

America doesn't exist yet. That's what I'm pitching at the moment. To conservatives and liberals, I say America's the greatest idea the world has ever had, but it doesn't exist yet. And for certain communities, it's not there. And the idea that you can write it, that you can create it now, people listening on the podcast thinking, well, what is America then? It's on its way.

And that's the most encouraging I could be. I agree about that. Is it an embracing of a coexistence? Sorry, Sean. Do you think – is the general sort of American idea, I wonder, just from your international perspective, is it just to the extent that you are comfortable to coexist with other? Is that what the promise is?

Yeah, that's exact. That's a really good definition of it. And America is... Well, Jason just saw a bumper sticker. Yeah, it's a bumper sticker. But, you know, it's just... I mean, I love... As much as this book I've written is a love letter to my missus, to Ali, it's also a love letter to America. And I, you know, came here...

I mean, I went to City Lights. I don't know if you've been to that bookstore in San Francisco. Lawrence Ferlinghetti set it up. And I fell in love with America reading Ginsburg and Kerouac and the plays of Sam Shepard and Patti Smith. I was like, wow.

I was sort of, I didn't know I'd be getting to write about this America that I was reading about. But I even then just sensed this is a mythological place as well as a physical landscape. And there was two Americas, really. And I wanted to write about both.

Well, you did. You wrote so much about it. I mean, Joshua Tree was really felt like you were flexing your American muscle. You were there. You guys were absorbing and kind of reflecting back to us. You know, I was Canadian, but close enough. You were sort of reflecting back to us what you were seeing, and you guys were kind of

You were out there at Joshua Tree and you had the hats and you had the thing and you were in the streets and you were doing the concert on the roof. Right? You did all that stuff in this kind of great way and you... I don't know. There was all... There was all...

There was like a real absorption of American culture. And then you go on. The pop tour. What record was it? What record did you assume the character of The Fly? Acting Baby was the cutting down of the Joshua Tree. Cutting down of the Joshua Tree. Went to Berlin to record that, yeah. Which is a great record. And I always wondered, there always felt like when you were kind of playing the persona of the rock star, it was very sort of Bowie-esque in a lot of ways. But like, did you, it was almost like,

I thought, and I didn't... I had never met you at that point, but I often thought, like, I wonder if it was almost like a rejection of... Because you had... You guys were so famous and you were so big and it was almost like your way of dealing with fame in that way that it almost...

who Bono, who was part of the world, was this other entity that belonged to the world and you were kind of stepping back and watching him as well. Was there any truth to that? Yeah, but I mean, yes, it was kind of-- It was some kind of satire of fame and the rock star.

But I'll be honest with you, this was quite attractive. And I was like, wow, I can say shit I would never say. I can be this larger-than-life character. And I was dressed head-to-toe in this kind of Elvis 68 special outfit.

meets Lou Reed, meets Van, you know, not Jim Morrison, the other Morrison. And I'm like, wow. And Edge said, wow, you know, those plastic pants are starting to fit you a little too well there, dude. And, you know, I mean, I really, and then the 90s was so great to us because it unlocked us.

from being these... being just a collection of sounds and ideas. And I also needed just to chill out because, you know, just put the fist down for a while. And that's, you know, so Edge and myself have a place in the south of France for the last 30 years. That's where we met you, Will, I think, first. And so...

Yeah, I needed to, I certainly needed to chill out and I got quite good at it, it turns out. And then I felt in a way, you know, people say, you know, oh yeah, then you went back to saving the world. The way I see it is I was saving my own ass because I wanted to,

be useful again. I wanted to be useful to... These are corny words, but service. You know, I wanted...

I needed to meet, by the end of the 90s, I'd done enough chilling. So I think I needed to be, I needed to get back to being useful. And that's when we did the Drop the Debt campaign and read and then won. And so it really brought me on this other journey that I needed to,

toward adulthood but I haven't quite got there but adolescence is fun but it was a big undertaking and I know that you brought in that's when you brought in our mutual friend the great Tom Freston who we've mentioned on the podcast before the most interesting man in the world there's the best life of anyone in the world or anyone we know yeah totally

Boy, if I was Tom Fressen and Bono called my life the best life in the world, I'd feel pretty good. Congratulations, Tom. You've got to get him on your podcast. He's a pirate. Can't make his deal. Can I ask a question I've always wondered? Where did your name come from? Because I don't know your real name. I've only known you as Bono.

Yeah, my oldest friend, Guggi, is a really extraordinary abstract painter of some renown around the world now. But it was Street Gang. And I've known him since I was three. And he gave me the name Bono. And I can assure you, he was not a Latin scholar. So Bono Voss...

was the name of a hearing aid factory. He did not know it meant strong voice. There you go. Wow, that's fascinating. I didn't know that. Well, if you wanted to be of service in the 90s, you've got to see the clear need for that service 30 years later. Are you going to take a walk through our country again soon and give us some...

some helpful talks and guidance and perspective? I don't think. I mean, I'm amazed that I've got away with it, to be honest with you. This Irish rock star, you know, quoting the Declaration of Independence like it's the liner notes to his favorite album, following America into the bathroom. Hey, it says this here. Why are you doing that? And I'm like an annoying fan of America. And...

You know, I'm thrilled that you let me in to your life, given me an incredible life. But I'm, you know, there's a lot to learn in this landscape for me and I've not much to teach other than one simple thing, which is...

It goes back to this Franciscan friar. He says, listen, deep listening. That's what America needs to do. And not listening to the people that we don't agree with. Maybe even listening to people we don't like. And people who annoy us. And if you can do that in your band...

then the rest will be easy. I really, truly... Listen to people who annoy us. Sean, go ahead, say something. I truly do listen to as many news networks as I can to get all perspectives, even if I don't agree with them. To your point. We'll be right back. All right, back to the show.

Speaking of listening, The Edge told me that you guys are going to go on tour in Vegas and he showed me the renderings of this new theater or something. It's going to be unbelievable. I mean, it's a brand new venue, right? That they're building just for you? You are a news network now because that's breaking news. We haven't signed off on it, but if we do...

If we do sign off on this, I will say that if we can pull off what we're talking about, it's not like anything we've ever done before. It's not like anything Las Vegas has ever seen before. Have you seen some of the plans? Yes. He showed me all the... It's incredible. If this happens, it will be really extraordinary. It'll change. And again, I don't want to... I shouldn't be. Whatever it is, it sounds very exciting. Blame it on Edge.

He showed. It's not me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I mean, he just showed me from my eyes only. But it's incredible. It's great. You know, there's a lot. I'm interested in Las Vegas for all kinds of reasons. You kind of always have been, right? Yeah, like I used to say, even going back to the fly...

And, you know, we used to say, call it Las Vegas trash and Berlinish decadence. And I'm interested in the concept of faith versus luck. I'm interested in, there's a great architectural manual called Learning from Las Vegas about how don't knock it or laugh at it, this sort of fact.

fabulous architecture is not overtly male. It's not overtly, it's playful. And these cities that we live in are very male and big, you know, straight lines. We've lost curves. We've lost

And this, you know, Las Vegas in some ways looks like it's been designed by children. And I think that might be a good thing sometimes. Yeah. That's interesting. That's a good point. Another sidebar, I'm obsessed with your daughter in one of my favorite shows in the world called Bad Sisters. She's good. She's incredible. And the show is amazing. And you must feel so proud of her. I mean, you can't stop talking about the show. No, she's got a lot of, she's very, very funny. Yeah.

She is a comedian and she can do what he wants, but she was playing these very sort of serious auteur chosen sort of muse parts.

And then when she got this, she got to be more like herself, you know, a killer. Exactly. And she's got a lot of discipline too. You strike me as somebody who would make a very, very good actor. And I feel like I may have seen you act in something once or twice. Don't insult the guy. I mean, what are you doing?

No, no, no, but, you know, look. It's beneath him. Sting is fantastic at it. Bowie was fantastic at it. Do you have a yearning for that at all? Because I'd love to see it. I bet it would be fantastic. Not really. I played myself in a film once. It was really hard. And I don't know. When I was younger, yes. Now, I don't know. And I'm starting to realize that the camera...

loves people who don't necessarily love the camera. I've spotted that. And I'd be more of a theater actor, you know? And I love being in the theater because that's where I get to break down the fourth wall. I want to be in a theater where the actor could just feel like he can walk off the stage, just get into my life, get into my mind, follow me home, mug me on the way home, you know?

You make out, whatever. That's the kind of thing I like. And it's harder to get off the silver screen, isn't it? And I think I look even more preposterous. You know, when you two went on Top of the Pops, our very first televised appearance on this legendary UK show,

you know, showed the week's charts for music. We went on and our song went down the charts immediately because we looked so preposterous. And I particularly, I looked like a sort of, I looked like somebody who's given me an electric shock. And I'm doing the sort of mad movements you do in a mirror. Yeah. You know, and...

And I think I'm seeing myself in a monitor or something. So I look cross-eyed as well. And I don't think... We've got an amazing audience in the UK, but, you know, I think there's some people I meet in pub and go, yeah, you were crap then. I saw you on Top of the Pops. You were crap. And I'm like, how old were you? I saw you on Top of the Pops, mate, you were crap.

I'm like, that was our second album. It was a song called Fire. Is that right? Yeah, it was crap. And I go, you know, we got better. We got better. Yeah, right. I just saw that once. By the way, that's so Irish and so...

Canadians, too, I have so many people I knew who I grew up with, and I go back and I go, saw that thing you did last year. Wasn't very good, was it? And I'm like, oh, thanks, man. Thanks for... I thought Canadians were much more polite. No, they're not. No, no, no. They're really passive-aggressive. To fellow Canadians, they show the real devil behind the curtain. We're not like Scandinavia. You've been to Sweden a million times, I'm sure, and you go to Scandinavia, and they go, oh, look at you. You look quite fat.

And you're like, Ben, what are you? Nice to see you too. I'm just saying it. You're much fatter than last time I saw you. No, I got it. I got it. One more thing before you, I do want to mention, I know you mentioned your daughter, your son also. What's that experience been like? Your son Elijah, he's got the band Inhaler who are doing really well.

especially across Europe and the UK. They debuted at number one, I think. Yeah, their album went in at number one. That's great. Which means they must have sold, you know, a thousand copies.

the way the things are going now. Are you so happy to have him off the payroll, just at least? I think I'm going to be on his payroll. It's very annoying. It's very easy for him. It's too easy for him. First of all, he looks like Elvis, and he's like, you know, he's like, oh. He's in a high school band. They're ridiculously talented. And I'm saying, you know, the early gigs...

I say, you know, don't you, you know, are you, there's some YouTube fans turning up. And he goes, I don't mind the hairy ones. And then the other guy in the band goes, they're not even hairy now, they're bald. And I go, is this a problem for you? He says, Dad, they buy the merch.

And now, of course, they're selling out everywhere. And they're a very sophisticated band. And he's effortless in so many ways. I didn't know he had those pipes. I knew he could play guitar. He's got a great voice. And there are so many moments. Of course, he's your son where he sounds like you. I wonder, like...

So your wife, Allie, who's just amazing, and you dedicate your book to her, and I've had the good fortune of meeting her a number of times. What is it like for her? I wondered, is there part of her when your son started playing music where she's like, great, now you've turned our son into a rock star as well? You know what I mean? It was eerie for her, you know, because she was going to clubs, sometimes the same clubs,

And when we were playing, there'd be 10 or 20 people there. And she's seeing her son. Wow. Yeah, I think that it was quite a thing. And, you know, she was like, you know, can you get him off the video games? He's on the video games all the time. And I remember Sidely up to me was like, I don't know, 14 or 15. I'm going, I don't know what it was, World of Warcraft or something. He's just looking and he's shooting things out of the sky or whatever they do.

And I'm saying, how's it going? He goes, yeah, good. How's it going? It's good, yeah. You're getting really good at that. He goes, oh, well, thanks. I said, you should practice that a bit more. He goes, what? I said, if you really work on this, like, you could be one of the best ever World of Warcraft, like ever. And he goes, yeah, yeah. I said, yeah, when you're like 21, that's really going to make a big impact on women with that.

And he stopped. He just looked at me. He goes, oh, yeah, right. And I said, no, but you're an amazing guitar player. Just don't forget that. You're really. That's the only advice I gave him. That's great. God, that's good. And he's never even thought about any other advice I've tried to give him. That's so good. But I'll bet you gave, I bet you actually gave some very, very good, also crafty advice.

parental guidance there, you and your wife, with him and your daughter when they thought about doing something that might be kind of public facing. You know, growing up as, you know, your children, I'm sure there was a moment at least where they were reluctant to, you know, see if they could measure up. And I'll bet you and your wife gave some real good advice

daddy-mommy stuff to encourage them? Irish people. Irish people were good to them. Because they were probably bored with their father, they really didn't bother these. And then we went to a local school. All our kids went to the local school and

free school and, you know, progressive school and just talk school project was called and they were treated and mistreated like everybody else by their mates. And they just grew up. It wasn't what would be harder for you because...

I think fame might mean something different in America. I think it's a little harder to endure. Whereas we always escape back to Dublin, to Ireland. And sometimes I forget after, you know, say after lockdown, I remember going out and going, oh shit, I'm famous again. And I have to put on that stupid voice. I have to put on the funny walk. And no, it...

the advice of their friends was as important as ours. And, and I don't think he's taught much about his father's fame at all. I think he's just, he's just very focused on what he's doing with his parents. Oh, that's great. That's great. Well, you guys, you guys have certainly cultivated a, like you said, your kids all go to the, went to the local school. And, and I know that, you know, in the summertime, you and Ed spent a lot of time and,

and your family's kind of all, everybody together, and there's a real sense of that kind of community and family. Yeah, community's the right word. Yeah, and it's really lovely. And then there's always all kinds of artists and people coming in and out, but it's never, there's never any pretension. It's kind of like everything's very...

I don't know, very real and in a way that's not what you think it would be. It's not this kind of like, you know, up there. It's very grounded and you see it in your kids and your family. You can hear it in the music too. Yeah, of course. It's amazing. It's a really, really generous thing to say because it's the most important thing to us. And...

is that we didn't screw up our kids, but we can still try. But thank you. Please keep it going. And your band is a great band, and you started in lockdown for the right reasons, and...

We love to listen to you. And there's been some great ones. Will, you talking about breaking back into your old house when you have Sellers' remorse on the David Remnick episode. That had me laughing into my cornflakes. I really did really choke on my cornflakes. And all of you have kept us...

insane in insane times. So thank you. Very nice of you. Thank you for your contributions to the world. Yeah. And your contribution to SmartList. Thank you for giving us an hour of your time. It's really, really an honor. It's an honor to meet you. Yeah, for sure. Blessings to you three. Bye-bye. And to your team. All the best. Bye, Bono. Good luck, Bono. See you. Bye-bye. Yes.

Of course Bono slammed it. Of course Bono slams a laptop. He's not going to miss a move like that. Did it feel like we went into a different area of the space-time? Did we just go find a little pocket of time and you could have just sat there and listened to him? I definitely did. You two clearly have done that before with him. It's like a fucking Conan party. Fucking Sean's eating with Edge. You're hanging out with Bono. Where am I?

You know what I'm doing? I'm like down at Whitsitt hitting balls, you know? Well, maybe stop playing so much fucking golf and get out into the world, man. There's a whole world. I had the good fortune of spending some time with those guys there.

Down in the south of France. I was working nearby and they were very generous and invited me over a bunch. And Eli and I went over a bunch of times. Yeah, it was amazing. How nice. How nice is Edge? By the way, Edge did one of the kindest, most generous thing ever. They had this huge party and all these people around and he knows that I didn't drink. It's no secret that I've been in and out with, you know...

booze over the years and and uh that I don't drink and and um and you know everybody's having a good time and he went I said you know that somebody offered me drink I said no no I don't and

He went into the kitchen himself and comes back out with a tray with like four ice-cold bottles of San Pellegrino sparkling water and a glass and stuff. He says, here, I got this for you and blah, blah, blah. And a whiskey chaser. And some Coke. Coke is still on the table for you, right? A little bit of weed. Oh, what we call fat rails. Fat rails. Fat rails. Good for you. Fat rails. And a bag of shrooms. And he just...

Yeah, but nice guy. Four days later. But no booze. But you know, when you were introducing him. But it was very generous. But they're both like that. Yeah, they're both like. When you were introducing him, I really did get nervous. I was like, oh my God, this guy's going to be like, who is this? And of course it was huge. It was Bono. And the first thing I thought of was like, how many bands. It's so rare now that the world creates bands that have such longevity like U2. Or, you know, you think of the Rolling Stones or U2. Oh, the band U2. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Sean, did you, it's weird that the, why would they, why do you think that they would name the band after a bomber plane? Why do you, what do you, did you ever ask Edge that? That U2 was a bomber? No. Yeah, the U2 bomber plane. That's not why they named it. Is that why they named it? That's not true. No, it's not. It means U2, me, him, and U2, you know. Does it really? Yeah.

I thought I was going to get him on that one. Wait, no, but you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. You know what I mean, though? But like, isn't that wild that we live like now? They don't make them like this. No, no, no. He's a proper rock star from a proper super group. Yeah, it's just wild. That doesn't exist. I know. I have another memory. One time, we were out here in Long Island having lunch, and Chappie was here, and he

uh, we, we, I know Chappie gets another mention. He's actually showing up today. I'm really excited to see him. We come back to the table. Yeah. Chappie and Conan are coming over. We come back to the table. We went out to have a little visit with the, uh, the, the men from, um, from RJR Reynolds. And, uh,

We come back to the table, and as I'm approaching the table, I'm not kidding, the painter who's Julian Schnabel is sitting at the table talking to Bono. I know. It's a crazy name. And as I'm walking back, Bono says to me, hey, Will, we're just having a conversation. What do you think about the idea of being able to put value on art and actually paying money for art and value of art? And I go...

I'm not, Bono, I'm not answering that. You think that I want this to turn into the story of the time I got punched in the face by Julian Schnabel? I said, no thanks. That guy's a hell of a movie director, too. No kidding. Yeah.

Now, what were you guys talking about at the beginning? Is he doing some sort of tour with the book where he's going to be alone on stage kind of playing acoustic, kind of like a Springsteen type of show? Thank you. So from his book, Surrender, 40 Songs, One Story, he did a show at the Beacon and now starting in April of, actually starting April 16th, he's going to be doing his show where he goes and he talks on stage and he does some songs from U2.

And he tells stories, excerpts from his books, and then he tells stories and interacts with the audience. He did it this fall, and, you know, people went crazy for it. And so he's decided to come back, and he's going to do more shows there. And it's really exciting. More shows at the Beacon, or is he going to go around the country? The Beacon, and then around the... Yeah, it's just been, like...

The reviews of it are amazing. People say it's just incredible. I love it. And like he said, he's sort of sanctioned by the band because he's up there himself doing it. And Edge was at that show that he did at the Beacon. I don't know if Adam and Larry were, but anyway, pretty cool stuff. Man, I'd like to see that. Yeah. Again, I'm so in, you know, it's funny, like we,

Really, I've always been a fan of the band and their music and all those guys. The guys I just mentioned, Larry and Adam and Edge and Bono collectively, you two, just such a fan. And they, for all of us, their music has played different parts of our lives over the years.

But it was, I think the thing I'm the most in awe about is his activism and what he's done to actually use that to not just reflect it in the songs and the content and deliver powerful message in his songs, but to actually go out and do it in the way that he has. Get off his butt and do it. Dude, right after Band-Aid, he went to Africa. He and Ali went to Africa and worked in Africa. And he's just, all the stuff that he's done over the years, I mean, just countless stories of shit that he's done.

done that people don't even know about. In between writing and touring and stuff, it's kind of amazing. It's pretty sick. And then I think about Jason at the fucking Grange working on his 7-iron and just thinking like, why am I finishing here and the face is not square? I'm not even thinking about helping cleaning up the balls afterwards. No. It's like, you know, I'm just like...

And he's out there traveling to Africa, feeding people, you know? You don't even pick up your own fucking golf balls. I don't even pick up my own balls. In fact, I'm annoyed that I have to look at all those fucking loose balls out there in the range. I want a clean range to hit, too. You're feeding the pond the balls. Fuck me.

I'd love for him to write a song about that. He'll write a song. It's called Ready. Bono's thinking about, like, how can I, what can I do next to save the world? And Sean's thinking, like, how big is the biggest bag of Skittles? Like, do they make a 10-pounder? Because I could really hit those. So when he comes back out to do a show in April, do you think you can dust off this friendship, Willie, and give him a text? Because I don't want to have to buy the tickets. Buy the tickets.

Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjarv, Bennett Barbico, and Michael Granteri. Smart. Less.

If you like SmartList, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.