"Rian Johnson"
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You have made your biggest mistake of the day by clicking on Smartless. We've got some very questionable entertainment coming up with a mystery guest to a couple of morons. So, I guess enjoy Smartless. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart.

I ate a whole bar of toffee. Oh, really? Yeah. Wait, what is, so toffee is not taffy, but it's a hard, crunchy, I only know, so it's peanut brittle without the peanuts. Is that right? I think so, something like that.

For dummies, sure. Yeah, for dummies. No, but seriously, toffee, have I ever... Oh, no, wait. Toffee is that chewy gooey. It's like caramel, right? No, it's crunchy. It's like brittle. It can be brittle, yeah. Right, so it's peanut brittle without the peanuts. I think so, with just the butter or something. I've never seen it sold by itself, toffee.

It's so good. It's addictive. Look at the look on his face when he said that. Yeah, where'd you get that? He's so mad. Look at the jealousy. My niece is leaving tomorrow. She just walked in the door, said thank you for the trip. Here's some toffee for your troubles. Here's some toffee. Yeah. She sounds like the worst house guest ever. By the way, what are you, crazy? She knows what he wants. Yeah.

Exactly. That is gold. She's a good house guest. Yeah, she's the best. She learned from the best. She learned from Tracy, friend of the show. I clipped my nails too. Ew, she left you her nail clipper? That's disgusting. No, I just clipped my nails because we only had like 15 minutes in between shows. Where have you put the dead nails? Right here in this napkin.

Oh, my God. What are you supposed to do with them? How often do you clip your... First of all, you don't need to do it on camera. What are you doing? How often do you clip your nails, Will? Have you lost... Yeah. How often do you clip your toenails? As needed.

Really? So what is that, like once every two weeks? Mine's like a month. It can be. Sometimes I go, wow, they're growing really quickly. That means that I'm like really healthy and they're just very white and very firm. Okay, that's enough. So you're doing it yourself. You're not going to a salon? No, I'm doing it myself.

It's like, Sean, do you go and do you get your feet taken care of and your hands taken care of or are you a self-care guy? I'm a self-care guy with my nails in my feet. Nails in my hands and my feet. But I usually go like a month. I do like a pedicure. When's the last pedicure you had, Will?

Don't lie. No one's listening. It's just you, me, and Sean. No, it was before 2020. And before that, it was quite a long time. There was a period there about 15 years ago. I don't really... I'm not really interested in the sincere answer, so we don't need to fucking...

lean back in your chair. You don't want me to look off into space? Yeah, because it's not really acceptable for men to have like a steady routine of manicure, pedicure. I disagree. I've only had a half dozen of them in my life. I disagree. What do you mean it's not acceptable? Of course it's acceptable.

I think it's a little excessive. It's just not as common as you think. I think it's excessive male self-care. What are you talking about? You and I, we produced a documentary that we were in. Right, in a joke. Like, you know, like it's like, here's a documentary about all the freaky things that some weird dudes do to self-groom. What was that? All you need to do is just doing what you're doing, Sean, is have one of those $2, you know, little clippers there. Or if you're talented with your teeth like I am, you do it, you do a little,

tasteful, no pun intended, nibble on your fingernails. That's unacceptable. All right. Well...

This is a great segue. - I guess. - That's a perfect segue. No. Okay, so we got with us today a writer, director, producer of the highest level. Okay, after bursting onto the scene with hits like "Ninja Co: The Origami Master" and "Evil Demon Golf Ball From Hell," this man has consistently received praise and respect for each of his films while simultaneously selling lots of tickets and popcorn. It's not easy to do both those things.

He's got an Academy Award nomination, a diploma from USC Film School, a wife named Karina, a bright future and a blinding present. You know him from his film "Star Wars: The Last Jedi," but you love him from his film "Knives Out." Folks, this is Ryan Johnson. Ryan, please join us. - Oh my God, no way. Oh my God. - Okay, take it easy, Sean. Take it easy, Sean. - Ryan, oh my God. Do you wanna know what's so wild?

After Looper, I was like, who is this guy? This guy's amazing. And I tried to get a meeting with you, and you're like, I think he's directing Star Wars. And I was like, oh. Yeah, he's busy. He's busy. Welcome, Ryan. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for coming. This is so wild. You look like you've got a fairly professional setup there. Yeah, you're quite adept at the podcasting. So I'm in my wife's podcast studio right now. My wife, Karina Longworth. She has a podcast, yeah? She does, yeah. It's called You Must Remember This. It's like a Hollywood history podcast. Wait, that's your wife? Yeah. That's her, yeah. We tried to get into business with her.

Uh-huh. She couldn't make her deal, huh? No. She's tough. I don't know what happened. Nobody in that family wants to have anything to do with you, Sean. My household has just denied you, Sean. Try their dogs. I'm such a fan of that podcast. It's such a great idea. And she's got an interesting history too, right? LA Weekly film editor? Yeah, she was a critic. When we met, she was the main critic for the Weekly and for The Village Voice. Now, how did you meet? Like at a junket?

No, well, we kind of knew each other online, but then we first met Matt. Yeah, she was like paid 500 bucks to like drive out to the middle of Jersey and do a Q&A with me. And we kind of flirted in front of an audience full of old people who were there to see a free movie. Could you sense that the flirt was on there on stage during the Q&A? Yeah, but we didn't actually get together until like a year later because she lived in New York. I was in L.A. And so it wasn't until she moved back home to L.A. that we actually got

together. You already knew each other online a little bit. That sounds is it can is that is as grimy as it sounds like? No, no, no, there was never there was no grime pre getting together. Not right. We're just friends. So much. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for agreeing to do this. It's very, very, very cool. Well, let's let's let's let's jump in with now. Annie Hall inspired you to become a director.

What was it about? There's so many things about that movie that I'm sure everybody listening loves. Tracy, the name of the movie was Annie Hall, Not a Person.

Right. Yes. Thank you. Tracy, you never underestimate the thickness of Tracy's brand. Just bear with us. So what about Annie Hall said to you, I got to go do this? Well, I should, I don't know if you guys have on like your Wikipedia pages, something like this. I was interviewed for like a

book that's like the movie that inspired you to become a filmmaker years ago. And I was like, what about this movie? And they're like, well, that was already taken. Like, what about this movie? So we got, I do love Annie Hall. I think Annie Hall is a great, great, great, great movie. But right now it's like... But that wasn't the one. Well, there were like a bunch of them. What was the one? What was the one they said was already taken? I mean, you know, the reality is that the...

probably like a lot of people kind of like our age, like there were kind of the movies as a kid that actually probably like did the inspiring and those were like the Amlin movies and those were E.T. and Star Wars. But then you get to film school and then you discover Fellini and you discover Scorsese and you discover the Coen brothers and you kind of, you know, and so there's kind of that round of them.

Yeah, Jason, talk about when you discovered Fellini. Go. Yeah, well, listen. I was off the coast of Crete, actually. Sure. Which is near Italy. Like, oh, my God. That's weird. No, but your style is, I mean, it's just, you're so creative with the camera and the story and how those two things in a really...

beautifully odd and intricate way intersect. Was there a particular film that did that? Because that's not an easy thing to do. It's certainly not common that you went, oh God, I'd love to be able to figure out how to do that because you do it in your sleep now. I don't know. I don't, there's no like, I mean, that's very kind of you to say, first of all, but no, I don't think there's like one that's like a

that was kind of just like the one. It's kind of like a cloud of movies I grew up watching. But mostly, I mean, I don't know if you guys did this, but I kind of just grew up making movies with my friends and it wasn't kind of any kind of high...

aspirational like craft type thing it was literally just how we kept ourselves busy on the weekends was just right but there are but there are some filmmakers that are just fine to sort of in your case write write a story and then just shoot a story make sure we just photograph this script but then there are other filmmakers like like yourself and say like the coen brothers um

that there's such a specificity to the composition of the frame and the movement of the camera that is... They're looking to elevate. You're talking about elevating the material is what you're talking about. I'm going to take a lot of words out of the question. Yeah.

Whereas like Spielberg is, you know, not to belittle him at all, but there is a much more sort of traditional way in which that he... Jesus, what a slight. Oh, my God. Well, in comparison to what the Coen brothers are doing, it's certainly a different style. And so how did you decide to go one way or the other? Yeah, I mean, I would... First of all, I would... In terms of Spielberg, in terms of what he does, like he's actually someone that I...

in terms of filmmaking style and craft, the way that he blocks scenes and the way that he shoots them, even though I'd actually, because he's not throwing the camera around in all kinds of crazy, insane, ostentatious ways, but he's,

covering the scenes and blocking them in such a way where it's like Michael Curtiz. It's like watching Casablanca. It's so elegant and so perfect. I think there's the lost art of sort of staging that Spielberg has in a way that a lot of other directors don't have. Yes, but also, you know, if you look at Close Encounters and Jaws, I don't see this a lot in movies where people are having multiple conversations at the same time in the same scene. And so...

talking over each other. Well, it's kind of... Sean, there's a great scene in Close Encounters where Richard Dreyfuss is kind of losing his mind. He's going back and forth between kind of the kitchen and the living room. You know that scene, Ryan? And the camera just keeps moving with him. And the scene is about

And the kids are running back and forth. Yeah, it's about three and a half minutes long, and they're not worried about it. It's not like now, they're not worried about like, let's just get the coverage so we got it. It's none of that shit. It's a conversation, and you feel like you're there, and you're really part of it. You feel like you're in it. And there's no need for anything but that, because that's the most important thing. That sort of... And you don't watch it and think, oh my God, what an amazing one-shot scene. You kind of forget that it's just one shot by the end of it, which is...

For sure. Woody Allen did that really, really well. And Robert Altman does that really well. But the Coen brothers and something that you, I mean, you can do the former as well. But the using the camera as a performer, I guess, is my point.

Right, right, right. Is a different effort, no better, no worse. It's just a different tool. And I was just wondering if there was a film that... The Coen, yeah, absolutely. Like Miller's Crossing and Barton and Fink were like the two big ones for me watching stuff. But I was also watching tons of Sam Raimi's movies, you know, like Dead by Day. And stuff that was using the camera in ways that's more overtly, I don't know, fun. Just kind of throwing it around, you know what I mean? And part of that goes back to just...

the the you know goofing around with your friends and kind of what would happen if we tied the camera to a bungee cord and threw it off this bridge you know like what's that gonna look like literally just like what's that what's that gonna look like if we try this and now when you went a lot of people don't know this but you directed three episodes of breaking bad when you did that i'm sure it was because you you're simply just a big fan of that show like every everybody else um we all all of us included um was there any sort of like well i

kind of want to put my stamp on this, but as any episodic director knows, if your episode looks any different than the last one, you've done a bad job. So how did you... Was that uncomfortable for you to kind of stay within the lines there? No, not at all. And also, it's weird. Like, Vince actually, he saw my first movie, Brick, and he called me, like, I think it was right after the first season. And so I hadn't, like...

I kind of, this show hadn't really like broken out yet. It wasn't like a big phenomenon when I signed on. So I just thought it was a cool show. And, but no, when the writing is that good and when the actors are that good and the show is that solidly defined by Vince, it was just, I don't know. But I don't know if you're, I don't know. I don't think you're ever like coming into anything, even your own movies, hopefully trying to like,

if you're conscious of like putting your stamp on to the point where that's a thing, you know, especially if it's someone else's thing, you're just in, it was just trying to put what's on the page as powerfully on the screen as possible. Yeah. Did you ever make a cameo in any of yours?

No, I've never, my hand always ends up in my movies. But inevitably it's because you're doing some insert shot and you're trying to describe how to pick up the dice or something. And you're just like, oh yeah, just give me the jacket, I'll just do it. And you just get in and do it. But I was, yeah, I've been Luke Skywalker's hand once. Oh really? I was like, yeah, every single movie I end up. I had my stand-in do, I had to leave for something or something like that. They were doing an insert.

And he went to the baseball game with your kids, right? Is that what you had him do? Exactly. And there was...

There's a thing called an insert listener where your hand is holding your phone and they got to do a tight shot of the phone of what you're looking at so you can see your hand really closely. And so he did it and he had these incredibly feminine hands, like just like more feminine than my wife's. It would never match. I mean, I've got these meat hooks and I ended up seeing it and I was like, oh, no, I don't know.

The meat hooks of Malta. Yeah, exactly. By the way, Jason, I met a Maltese guy recently who was aware of the fact that you have Maltese origin. I'm not joking. Yeah, these are hands thick enough to pull in a fish net, you know, so the netting doesn't cut into the fingers. Worthy. Fisherman on the side. And we will be right back. And now back to the show.

Talk to us about what is it was getting into the I mean, the USC film school is like, you know, Harvard Law School. I mean, it's it's a it's a very difficult thing to get into. Was there a song and dance you had to do to get in there or was it? Yeah, I mean, I had I had really, really bad grades in high school because I was just making movies with my friends all the time. I was kind of

I was a bad student. And so my grades were bad. I had like no connections at all. And so I didn't get in actually to the film school at USC, but I got into the university. And I don't know if you can still do this now, but back then you could go undeclared. And so I didn't have any other options and I knew USC was where I wanted to be. So I just went undeclared. So I just

took general ed classes and kept reapplying every semester to the film school and I kept getting rejected. I got like five rejections and finally I hit my junior year and I rejected again and so at that point though I had become friends with tons of film majors and I was sitting in on film classes. So I became a literature major and...

was happy, but then the mid points of the next year rolled around. And so I, and I wouldn't recommend this for anyone who's trying to get into USC, but I wrote kind of like a

sort of an FU letter kind of. It was really obnoxious and really it was just like a one-page thing where just, you know, whatever 19-year-old me was just like, I'm a filmmaker, I don't need your program. And it was really obnoxious and terrible. But they let me in based on, yeah, I guess, I don't know. It worked. Did they teach you anything? I mean, a lot of people say that films, you can't learn how to make a film until you make a bunch of them. Do they teach you anything in there that you still use today? Of value? Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think the... And it's interesting. My friends' kids and stuff who are considering film school have talked to me about that. I think the real value of film school is twofold. It's actually...

having just a bubble in your life carved out where you can watch all the movies in the world and hopefully make a ton with your... Because I do believe what you said is right. You can't learn how to make movies in a classroom. You learn it by watching movies and by making them. But also, it's the friends that...

That's the friends you make in film school. That's why actually it's not even necessarily USC, but the one advice I always give is there is value in going to film school in Los Angeles because the people you meet there are going to stick around in LA and that circle is going to remain intact. And then you're all, we were all kind of helping each other through our twenties when we were broke and trying to get our,

and first movies made. But yeah, I don't know. I had some good teachers, but I don't think that you learn how to make movies. Did you get going right away afterwards or were you making pizzas? Yeah. No, I was doing it. I got some good day jobs. I did have through my 20s some really nice days. I worked at a preschool for deaf kids like as their AV guy. Nice. And I worked at the Disney Channel like producing promos for like Baron the Big Blue House and stuff.

I was able to kind of keep a roof over my head. But I wrote the script for my first movie, Brick, when I was right out of college and I didn't get it made until I was 30. So I basically spent my 20s like...

trying and failing to get this little movie made. Wow. But just kind of doing whatever you could in sort of moving in the direction. That's what I always say to people too. You got to be kind of moving in the direction of the thing you want. You're not going to be able to actually do it. Right. But keep moving in that direction. Is that right? Yeah, totally. Although I think it's, I'm also really glad looking back at that time that I didn't have a job really in like production or in, because that, I think that's,

there's an illusion of being close to it in a job where you can't actually advance into what you want to do and it sucks up all of your time and energy. And I think if you want to work in production, that's great and that's a great path. If you want to make your own movies, I feel like...

I don't know, I feel like spending your time writing and rewriting your own scripts and just making your own movies and having a job that pays the bills but that doesn't-- you aren't working 18 hours a day and, you know. But, you know, I saw-- I did this thing, we're friends with-- I'm sure you know Tycho Waititi, he's a great filmmaker and great guy. And he said to me, we were doing this thing last year and he goes, "We've actually worked together before." And I go, "No, we haven't."

And he goes, yeah, we have, mate. And I go, no, I would know, Taika. And he brought up this video on his phone, and he was shooting promos for NBC, and it was like an upfront promo. Really? Yeah, for all the stuff. And he's like, I came and shot you and Maya and Christine on set for this thing for NBC. I was like, holy shit. That's amazing. And he was like, yeah, it was like a job. Like he was, you know what I mean? He was like trying to, he was moving things.

That's fantastic. I had that experience with... I think I met Thomas Hayden Church, and I was able to... Because I shot like a promo thing for George of the Jungle 2, I think. Yeah, you see? Yeah, yeah. I was like, we've met before. Yeah, yeah. That's terrible. We'll do that, yeah. You're like, okay, now on the George of the Jungle 2 promo video, I want the camera... The camera finds you. The camera's going to find you. Well, you know what? The camera's going to be in the jungle. So wait, Ryan...

I have a question about Looper is one of my favorite movies. Knives Out is one of my favorite movies. Of course, Star Wars. Brothers Bloom. But wait a minute. You wrote the script for Looper. I can't imagine for those of you who haven't seen it, but tons of people have seen it. But it's like a time traveling thing where, you know, someone's like the criminal set in the past where that hired gun guy dies.

is waiting to shoot him or something, right? And then somebody threatens to close the loop. -It's really-- -You have seen it? 'Cause the way you describe it doesn't sound like-- I can't describe it because it's more intelligent than I can put words to. You need the visual clues to really get with it. Yeah. But it's so intricate and woven and, like, complicated to write, I imagine, because watching it-- Sure, it all makes sense when you watch it, but I was like, "This is a super high concept that massively works."

But how did you come up with that idea? And was that a nightmare to write that? Yeah, I actually wrote that as a short. So, and I think maybe that helped. I wrote that back,

before I got my first movie made when I was just getting really frustrated about just thinking about money to get my first movie made all the time. And so I just went back to kind of making shorts with my friends and we made a few. And this was when I wrote Badan Chute, but it was just a very compact voiceover driven like La Jetée style like short. And I think maybe that helped because the core idea of it was –

simple enough to be written in a couple pages and so expanding it out didn't you make all your uh bunch of shorts for pride when you yeah i got right into where the action was i wanted the camera to get up real close no i mean actual shorts oh sure are you ryan are you good at at at

I would imagine. I've only written once and it was the hardest thing I ever did. By the way, sorry, I don't want to interrupt. I want you to continue this, but I'm watching Sean. He can't wait to talk about Star Wars. We're going to guest Star Wars and I want to talk about it. He's being really well behaved. Sit on your hands. I have a thousand questions about Last Jedi. It should be noted he's being really well behaved about Star Wars.

really hard for me to shut up. To sit in a quiet room and stare at the wall and think forward enough to know whether your idea is actually going to work and then to come backwards and start writing. I mean, that process of all that puzzle fixing with something as intricate as that, is that difficult for you or easy? Well, no, man, it's

It's hard. Yeah. No, you know, it's, it's hard. I mean, I think, but the hardest thing, I mean, it's easy to make it complicated. Like as, as you know, it's hard to make it work, which means making it simple, you know, making something complicated, sort of giving it a simple enough dramatic shape to where the audience is actually going to be taken on a journey as opposed to get lost and just feel like it's math. That's, that's what's, that's, that, that's the hard part. But, um, but,

Yeah, but I do like structure. Sorry, sorry. Our buddies have a great time. Grandma just yelled downstairs for the kids to come up. There's the other Star Wars fan. Hey. Yeah.

Go put on your outfit real quick, Scotty, and come ask a question. Go grab all your figures. Bring all your action figures. He's going to text me a question for you. So, Ryan, because your stuff is so tailor-made, right? You write it, you shoot it, at times you edit it. Was it...

was it, I can't imagine you had that much autonomy when you said yes to Star Wars. And if that's correct, was that a difficult adjustment for you to kind of do someone else's stuff?

I mean, the craziest thing with Star Wars is that's not actually – it was actually just like making another one of our movies. I did actually have – yeah. I mean, it was – I mean, yeah. It really was like kind of to a crazy degree. I mean, I was – you know, it was a little different in that when I was coming up with the story, I was getting together with –

some folks at Lucasfilm who are like part of their story group. But even that, it didn't feel like it was like a constricting, it has to be this, it has to be that. It felt like we were really just kind of talking it out and like they were kind of helping me find the direction, you know, that I wanted to take. And it was just a wonderful process. And then it really, even on set, it felt like...

I don't know, like the actors kept saying it felt kind of like the biggest independent movie they've done. Oh, that's cool. It had that vibe. It just felt like making one of our other movies. You know, one of the greatest experiences ever

in my life in a theater was seeing The Last Jedi and the big reveal that Luke wasn't there. Oh, yeah. Right, and the fight. I mean, that was mine. Everybody in the theater was like, what the? Everybody's head exploded. What do you mean he's not there? He's a ghost. It was crazy. It was nuts. But,

But anyway, was that your idea, by the way? Do you want to say spoiler alert? Yeah. We'll flash that on. No, but wait, whose idea? That was like never before seen in any other Star Wars movie. It was so cool. Yeah, that was my idea. And it was all about wanting to give Luke sort of the, I wanted him to have a satisfying moment at the end where he faced down Kylo and they had to be face to face and he had to beat him. And it was like a Jedi power we'd never seen. It was.

It was. I had read references to it in some of like the books and stuff. I've read stuff where I'm like, okay, this is in the realm of this. You know, this is something that has been kind of like talked about before. That's so cool. But we've never seen it. But yeah, it was all just dramatically about I need these two to face off. If they actually face off, I don't want to have to contrive something where one of them gets injured and dragged away or something. I know one can't kill the – I don't want Kylo to kill Luke. And I know Luke can't kill Kylo. And so, yeah, I want Luke to win. And so –

It was all that stuff that just led to, "Okay, this is the one kind of dramatic thing we can do." And so tell me about the-- Something was announced I read about the Star Wars trilogy. What does that mean? And there's like episode one. What are we doing, going back to the beginning?

No, are you talking about the one that was announced that was like, I was gonna, I'm gonna do, or I don't know. I don't know anything about it. This is how Sean does it. He baits you into something. It's a trap. Pull out.

But how did that come about? How did the—did you raise your hand? Did they come to you? Not at all. No, they—yeah, no, they came to me. No, it was—and it was really a direct thing. It was just Kathy kind of setting a meeting and kind of raising it. What a phone call. It really was. It was—literally, I walked into the room thinking it was going to be a general meeting, and then it was like, shut the door behind you, and—

Yeah, and it was... You're like, don't tell me what to do. And they're like, yeah, you're the guy for the job. Was there an enormous amount of secrecy around it, maybe even an obnoxious level as far as like scripts and drafts and concept ideas? And there's all this for the listeners out there, like for certain of these films in Hollywood and Star Wars, obviously qualifying the Marvel stuff and all that stuff.

there's these secret and secured sites to read the script on or maybe if it's a hard copy, you've got to go to someone's office. Everything is watermarked or digitally watermarked. Well, the scripts are read so that you can't photocopy them, but it also means it's really hard to read them. We had these horrible...

Printed on red paper so you can't Xerox them. Yeah, so you can't photocopy them. You can't Xerox a red piece of paper? Stop saying Xerox has been out of business for like 40 years. Jesus fucking Christ. You can't make a mimeograph? But if I fax something to you,

But if I give the microfiche to the guy. So is that right about red paper? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we also, we had these horrible like e-readers that you had to enter like a 12-digit code to get into that all the actors had to have their scripts on. And it was a nightmare. Yeah, it was really, well, you know, yeah, it's a real pain in the butt. But it's also, it's just kind of,

I don't know, in terms of the secrecy of it, I mean, you want to preserve it for the audience, but there's also the level where it's just like people sending drones to take pictures of like, you know, a space truck that's going to be in the background or something. It doesn't really matter. It just kind of turns into a game of can we stop them from leaking more stuff, so...

Yeah. But yeah. Which is kind of cool. It's kind of cool. I love when I see that stuff like sneak onto the internet. Like it just increases excitement for stuff that's coming. I think so too. I think so too. And I was, I grew up kind of like, you know, trolling the internet for, back when the prequels were coming out in my 20s, we were all kind of getting whatever little scraps we could get, you know, for those games.

Knowing the assets at your disposal, the financing, the computer-generated images, did any of that sort of like, was it almost oddly a speed bump to you as far as your creative, like just knowing that you can imagine something, they can make it, that would be overwhelming to me. Like, well, how do I know what to then... It's like Jerry's Deli. Remember Jerry's Deli? Oh, my God. Like there's no limitations. Yeah. Yeah.

Was that tough? It's like the diners in Santa Monica that sell pastrami and donuts. And 5,000 things. It's the Cheesecake Factory menu. Yeah. I can't even begin. I can. I mean, not really because you start with it, you know, because you start with the script and you start before you have access to all that stuff. I mean, you start just kind of creating...

And because we had a tight script, I guess that's the answer. We had a script that was really finished and we really went in and shot the script. And you do, like any other movie, you get on the ground and stuff doesn't work and you have to reconfigure stuff. But the reality is it was, we had kind of, like I knew dramatically what we were going for with it. So no, it was never, it never felt like a, my God, we have access to all this. It felt like if we needed something, oh, thank God we have access to this. We can make this. Yeah.

Did you shoot it in England with a lot of the original technicians? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was absolutely, that was extraordinary. I mean, I'll tell you, just becoming friends with Frank Oz and getting to work with him for, because we did one scene that had Yoda in it and I wanted it to be the original puppet. And so they found the original mold and they recreated the original.

They didn't have the original puppet? No, all this stuff, because of what it was made out of, it dissolves, you know? It's not like permanent. Made out of toffee. Yeah, it's all toffee. I think I know where Yoda is. It's like peanut brittle without, yeah. Wait, so, but isn't it true, like, I don't know, I just heard this, I don't know if it was Star Wars or some movie that shot over in London with the,

union that works over there, they all like stop working at four and they sit down and it doesn't matter where you are or something like that? No, so that's the way it was back in the day. So there was really straight-- And you read stories when Lucas was making the original in London. There are stories that his crew-- And also his crew despised him famously, or at least that's kind of like the apocryphal story because everyone's like, "What the hell is we doing? This bear driving a spaceship? Like, what is this?"

And so, and this young kid kind of directing it. And so, but no, that was kind of how it was back in the day. The crews now in England are absolutely devoted. Well, and also you're dealing with people who are like us. They're Star Wars fans who are just thrilled. We'll work through lunch. We'll work through lunch. Well, it was, yeah. I mean, and it's nice because everyone's on board, but at the same time you have the resources where you're never bored.

you know, you're never in the position where you're having to ask people to kind of, you know, live unpleasant lives. We will be right back. All right, back to the show.

I want to talk about Knives Out because I love that movie. And by the way, if there's a sequel or three or four, please put me in it. I'll do one line. You might want to buy a newspaper. But wait, so that movie was so clever too. In the same way that... Did you write that, by the way? Yeah. Unbelievable. Nominated. Not a big deal. Okay, we're not an idiot. But isn't the sequel out now? Yeah. Yeah. But in the same way, Looper was kind of like...

It was multi, multi-layered. It seems like such a math problem to make that story work and a modern-day whodunit. Like, it kind of reminded me of Clue. I don't know, probably people have said it to you. But, like, it was so cool and refreshing to see... What's that? Nobody's ever drawn that comparison. That's funny. Come on, man. She's an investigative journalist, Ryan. I've never met Ryan Johnson. I'm freaking out. And do a sequel, by the way. So, wait. So...

So were you inspired by like, because people, I haven't seen like a quote whodunit or whatever you want to call the genre in so long. Was that kind of the impetus of it? Like, what is my take on a whodunit?

I mean, I grew up loving both Agate the Christy books, but also specifically the movies that were coming out when I was a kid, and that was the ones with Peter Ustinov as Poirot. So it was like Death on the Nile and Evil Under the Sun. And I remember I have great memories of watching those movies with my family and feeling like I was watching something very grown up. And I love those films and I love the genre. And part of Knives Out was kind of feeling like –

not so much like putting a twist on it, but just feeling like I love the genre and every time you see it, it's A, usually a period piece, and B, set in England, just because they're usually... I got the Christie stories. And the notion of what would one look like if it was set in America right now. And doing what Christie did and engaging with the culture, you know? As a Canadian, you know, they renamed it in Canada. You probably know that. It's Knives Out.

In 007. Something was out of town. The requisite element for films like that is obviously is the twist, is the, oh my gosh, I never saw that coming. Oh, that's who did it. Like that's...

you are, how do you come up with your own unique, like, oh, and then if this happens, then that happens. Like, that's a certain type of a brain. Well, I mean, yeah, puzzles engage, but I guess kind of the big answer is sort of, and I think this is actually really important when you're doing this kind of movie is to start, is to not start with that, I guess. You kind of, because you can drive yourself insane trying to think of what's a twist that no one's ever seen before. And you start coming up with,

just horrible stuff. Like, what if the dog did it? You know? You write backwards. Yeah, yeah. And so I think, for me, a big part of approaching these movies is approaching them almost more as thrillers where they're driven by more of a Hitchcock suspense model that's like the engine of the narrative as opposed to a surprise-based, like, whodunit and all. And then they kind of have...

the trappings of a whodunit laid over them and they also hopefully have something at the end. But the idea is you're taking the audience on a ride so that they kind of forget they're supposed to be solving something. And then by the end of it, there's kind of like the... Now, Daniel Craig couldn't be further from Peter Ustinov, right?

-I disagree. -Well, but I mean, you know, he just-- Yeah, is he as great to work with as he seems? I think, Will, you know him a tiny bit, right? I've never met him, but I hear he's just-- No, years ago, we hung out with him, me and Kraz hung out. He was a lot of fun. He was super nice. I just hear he's just the nicest, greatest guy. -He's amazing. -Yeah? Yeah, he seems that. He's like a really well-manscaped Peter Yusuf. That's how a lot of people describe him. -Yeah. -Jesus. Right. It's true.

Not quite as breasty, but twice as hairless. He's like a Harry Yulbrenner, I think a lot of people think of him. Um...

Now, I've asked this before of directors and I'm really curious about it. Who do you love to collaborate with most? Is it the operator, the cinematographer, or the first AD? Or the production designer? Oh, God. I mean, they're all such... I mean, you guys know they're all such... I know, but you've got to pick one. You've got to pick one. Guns to your head. Uh,

Who do you have the most fun collaborating with? Of all of those folks. I mean, so my cinematographer is my best friend since I was 18. We met each other on a student film set. Oh, wow. That's cool. And he's shot all my movies and we're so close. What's his name? Steve Yedlin. Wouldn't it be great if he just said, you know what? I got a block. It just starts with a... I think it's Steve. Ryan, that must give you a good sort of sense of...

I didn't want to say safety net, but just, you know, that comfort of having somebody whom you really trust and you know really well over the years in that position who's there on this ride for you, especially when the stakes get higher and higher and you're doing things where you're, it's really a high wire act, if you will. For instance, let's say Star Wars, you know, the legacy and all of that and what's expected. And so there's a lot of pressure built into that, whether, you know, whether you want to admit it or not, I'm sure you recognize that. Yeah.

To have somebody like that, that you really trust, who's there in that moment, must give you a sense of like, "I can do this." And I'm gonna put it in terms that Jason can understand, 'cause he won't understand. It's like having a great caddy when you're playing golf, Jason. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm with you. Yeah, you're with him. But, right? But, no, but I mean, like, really, truly, it must feel great having that relationship there to lean on. It's essential. Like a Chris Johanson is just right there by my side making a movie.

Sure. Chris Jones. Shout out. Ryan, is that true? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And my cousin Nathan, who I've been making movies with since I was 10, is my composer. And I've been working with my producer for 20 years. And I think it also, it's just maintaining sort of the making movies with a group of friends type feel, which sounds...

sounds like a line, but it's legitimately kind of what we've tried to build over the years is kind of our sets feel like a group of friends hanging out, you know, because they are, because we all go way, way back. I have two questions from Scotty. Bring it. Oh, boy, you got a lot of emojis. Oh, boy, from a caller. This is from a caller on the second floor. LAUGHTER

It's coming from inside the house. Okay, could you ever have imagined that a film student back in the day that you would have a film scored by one maestro John Williams? I know he's amazing. And did you have a collaborative relationship with him in coming up with new Star Wars themes or was he like, I got this?

So he was both, he was the most, like you picture like in your head like the most incredible version of John Williams you can possibly imagine. Just the warmest, kindest, and he was that plus like 50%. We go every year to the Hollywood Bowl to watch him. He's amazing. He's incredible, yeah. And also you go and like you go to his, like I went to his house once.

or the house that he works in, he still writes by hand at the piano. And you look at, look at the walls and he has shelves and they all look like they're like leather bound encyclopedias and you look closer and like on the spine of one is like Raiders, you know? Yeah, that's so crazy. You pull it off and it's, he's hand, he's bound like the handwritten like scores for all his movies. Um,

But in answer to your question, the first time I heard any of his music was when we were on the scoring stage and a 200-piece orchestra was doing it. There's no – Yeah. Oh, he doesn't send you sketches? I don't need to collaborate with John. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you do your thing. Was it the London Philharmonic?

No, we did these here. We recorded these at Sony, which is still an amazing stage. It's like the old MGM stage and it's all great LA players, but we recorded them here. Did you cry? I bet you were close to tears. I was there every single day they were recording and it was just the most like emotional moment

I can't imagine. It's ridiculous. One time at the Hollywood Bowl, I went backstage. I learned the theme to E.T. It's really, really hard to play. And I recorded myself and I went backstage at the Hollywood Bowl to show John Williams because somebody's like, oh, you can meet him. And I showed him on my phone. I'm like, look, I'm playing E.T. He's like, oh my God.

No, he was really sweet. Yeah, that was like a highlight of my life. But let's see what else Scotty says. Yeah, what else? Call her? Scotty says, do you have a desire? I want to know this too. Do you have a desire to do other than Star Wars? Anything sci-fi in the sci-fi world? And if so, can you tell us like...

the general kind of area. Yes, I mean, the answer is yeah. But sci-fi is one of those weird genres where it's kind of, it's almost like always a genre that fits on top of other genres. But I think that's why, you know, like Alien being a haunted house movie with sci-fi or Blade Runner being a noir. And yeah, in that way, though, I, yeah, I love sci-fi. I actually have a couple of ideas in the back of my head, but yeah, yeah, for him. But I'll text him to him. Yeah, text him. I'll text him by a text, yeah. Exactly.

Yeah, you don't want to give him your phone number. Hey, Ryan, I know it's late. Listen, just one last... Who was your favorite Star Wars character? Hey, Ryan, you up? This may be the Cheetos talking, but I was just thinking what might...

What might be great would be... Now, you're obviously incredibly intelligent and sharp and sophisticated. What's the dumbest, most unsophisticated thing you do on a daily basis? And this can be Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. It can be... Or any of the... I don't want to pick on them. But is it any sort of reality show you watch or...

I have been now since, and I started actually like the last week of shooting on Star Wars is when it first came out. I have been constantly playing Pokemon Go since.

What? Yeah. You shot a promo for that, didn't you? I did. I shot like a commercial for them. Yeah. Yeah. It's so dumb. Oh, my God. You love Pokemon Go? I love Pokemon Go. Even now? Even now. Are you driving around? Are you like going out to the Santa Monica Pier to collect? I have made detours in my life. I've had to do that with my son. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really sad. But there's kind of like a secret group of like adults

adult friends I have who also play it and we have like a discord channel where we all like geek out about our that'd be a blast we won't tell anyone don't don't I was gonna say please keep this between us I would appreciate it now are you a are you a gamer too do you play games on any sort of platform at home yeah do you have a headset

Hang on. No, I don't have a headset. I never got into the multiplayer thing. You don't do MP? I don't. I do like the story mode on stuff. So like, yeah, because I've tried it a few times and I always just instantly get my ass kicked by my friends. So no, I always do like the story mode and kind of go through. But yeah, I've got PlayStation. I've got Switch. I'm still, I'm almost at the end of Zelda Breath of the Wild, which is like a work of art.

art that game but i've now stopped playing it for like four months and i need to learn how to play it again in order to yeah anyway yeah it's very difficult well well so much of the game so many of these these game designers uh and creators are just incredible artists unto themselves and what they create is really pretty magical stuff well and i feel like the with the marketplaces right now like on the different platforms the independent games that are coming out are really like

incredibly like conceptually daring and interesting and just there's a lot of cool stuff out there right now yeah shout out to the gaming community shout out so uh so Glass Onion uh

out here. I think we're airing this probably right around the release time. I can't wait. There's another sequel that will come out shortly thereafter. Did you shoot them back to back or no? No, I haven't even written the next one yet. We're going to put this one out and I'm going to start writing the next one and figure it out, I think. I'm hoping to be in The Killer. Oh, I probably shouldn't say that. Too late. Wow. Wow.

But that's really – it's so exciting when we read that, that they're going to do two. They commit to it. Did that affect the way that you broke the story for this one, obviously, knowing that there's going to be a – no? Yeah. No, I had already written this one, actually, when we kind of made the deal with them to do another one. But it had always been in my head to keep doing – and also, though, it's not really a sequel. It's really like another Agatha Christie novel. It's a whole other –

cast holder setting. It's just a whole new mystery. Is anybody coming back? Just Daniel. Yeah, just Daniel. That's it. Yeah. And it would be the same thing for the third one. So in a way, it was just kind of, oh, it'd be fun to keep making these. Yeah, it's really cool. Three of us are happy to send our availabilities, our special skills. I'm holding you to this. Sean's wearing not my favorite wig. He's got five or six other ones you should probably send your pictures of. What? Rebel? What?

He's got a Rebel Alliance shirt on. That's just by chance. That is by chance. I didn't know you were going to be here. There are no accidents. Well, we're thrilled that you joined us and we're really, really happy that you continue to do so well so we can keep seeing your work and keep it coming, please. I feel so uncomfortable that you guys have thrown...

praising me. I haven't gotten to gush at you guys about all the stuff I love. Great imbalance in the force right now. I love you guys. This was really, really kind of you guys to have me on. Thanks, Ryan. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're such a talented man. Keep doing it.

Keep going. Thank you, buddy. Say hi to Karina. Tell her to be nice to you when she's writing reviews of your films. I'll try. And tell her I love You Must Remember This. Yes. I'll tell her. Okay. All right. God. Bye, pal. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Bye. Bye.

Talented fellow there. Real, real talent. I freaked out when he came on the screen. No, but you don't understand. Like when I saw Looper. Sean, you're never going to be in one of his films now. I know. You committed a singular filmmaker career suicide. You don't think I know that? Because of my thriving film career, I just read it. No, not true. He's probably going to call you first. But wait, did you guys see Looper? Yeah.

Yes. I did. Yeah. It was so clever and like forward and like... He's a major filmmaker. I know. Yeah. I just... And I remember like seeing it going, oh my God. And we almost got like a meeting with him. This was years and years ago. We got to make a folder of Sean's favorite because he'll say to people, it's my favorite film.

I know. By the way, I have a couple of friends that make fun of me because I say that on here. I'm like, oh my God, it's my favorite movie. I have a library of all my favorite movies. Right? On my little Apple thing. I'm going to just fax you a definition of favorite and you'll realize it's at odds with multiple. I just came over the Telex. Yeah. But I love him. He seems like really...

Kind. Like, easygoing. Yeah. Very, yeah. Chill. Very chill. Good guy. Very chill. You know, if he ever makes another Star Wars movie, you know what, I'm comfortable standing on the sidelines and just being a... Here's the bye. Bye, Stan! Bye, Stan. Bye, guys. Bye. Smart. Blast. Smart. Blast.

SmartLess is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbico, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarff. SmartLess. If you like SmartLess, you can listen early and add free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.