"Elisabeth Moss"
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Hey, Will Arnett, good morning. Gee, you are jumping out. Hey. You keep going, hey, hey, Will Arnett all the time. What's going on with that? I'm doing this new thing where I tell people's first name and last name. I can't speak without saying their full name. Like Tommy Lee Jones. You just don't say Tom Jones. You say Tommy Lee Jones.

I bet his friends don't say, hey, Tommy Lee Jones, do you want a glass of water? I think they probably do. No, they probably say, hey, want some water? Okay, hey, Will. See? There we go. Now we're meeting the real Sean. Now we can start an all-new Smart List. Smart. Smart. Smart.

So, listener, we're trying to figure out why Sean is late this morning. He's never late, so we're actually worried about him. We're starting to think, how would Sean die? We were saying he could choke on egg salad or...

maybe burn himself beyond recognition on a hot dumpling or something like that from Chin Chin. Yeah, or just like he sees fries in the fryer and he just goes face first into it. They're like, no, don't. Swan dives into it.

But you know what? Here's the other possibility is that Sean's sleep, his sleep hygiene is terrible. So he wakes up kind of at like 3 or 4 and he'll stay up and then he'll go back to bed at like 8. And there's a chance, maybe I should ring the house. Should I call the house? Well, but he doesn't, he sleeps with a fan on. And what else did he have to the hotel room on our trip?

Like a fan had to be brought in and wasn't like an extra pillow or a knitted blanket or something. It was something specific. Like a weighted blanket. Hang on, I'm calling the house phone. Oh my God. I hope he's got a real fun outgoing message. Get that up next to the mic. Just call my landline. Hey, are you going to do the show with us? Or what do you think? It's 1030. No, it's 1015. Oh, jeez. I'm coming right now. Okay. Oh, jeez.

Surprise guest, please don't respond, but thank you so much for your patience. He's moments away. We appreciate it. Really appreciate it, surprise guest. What kind of shape is his hair going to be in? Do you think he has time to grab a hat? Yeah. I don't think he's done one without a hat, has he? I think he sleeps in a hat. I think he showers with a t-shirt on for sure. Well, you know, like, Twas the Night Before Christmas, like an E! Old Time Sleepin' cap.

All right, so, Will, so today you're going, you say you're going to play nine holes of golf. You've already worked out. Anything else that's going to help the world for you today? I'm adjusting my recording. I've got a new mic because I'm taking a mic with me because I have to record Smartless from Singapore. So I'm taking that. The boys sent me a nice. Can't wait for the technical difficulties on those records. No? No.

Really? I mean, do I have a lot of technical difficulties on my end? You've been known to test a one-two. Oh, God, look at the hair. I'm so... You guys, I am so sorry. I hate that feeling of being late. Oh, I thought it was 10.30. Yeah, well... It wasn't. Look at your calendar. Does it say 10.15? Let me look. Take a look right now. I'm going to look right now. It says...

You know what, guys? It says 10-15. Yeah, it does. Were you just still kind of a little bit on a sugar high from last night from Scotty's big birthday soiree? Was it an ice cream party? Oh, my God, you guys. Did you get into a Sunday? Did you have independence? No, no, I did not. I had, you know, I made him a cake with some stupid picture of himself on the top of the cake. From the $20 cake lady? Yes. She's amazing. And I had...

I said, Scotty, how big a piece do you want? I go, I'm not even kidding. Cut me half of the cake. Did you eat the full half? Yeah, I ate the whole half. How about if you say, I'm not even kidding. Cut me the whole half. And he goes, I didn't think you were kidding. I know you. Sean, what would you do if, let's say Steven Spielberg called you today and he said, listen, Sean,

I need you for this part. And the guy... The machinist too. No, but he's a lifeguard at a pool. And there's lots of dialogue that talks about how sculpted his body. How long do you think it would be possible for you at all? This is for Steven Spielberg. What if he then said, and you're like, oh, I'll get in shape. No, no, no, that's for the other guy. We need somebody to play the flotation device.

But do you, would you take on a role where you had to get to sculpted shape and you only had a month to do it? Well, now that's an interesting question because I always say, like...

I've lost weight for health reasons or whatever in two weeks or three weeks. And knowing that I can do it that fast makes me not do it. When did you try that, though? As we get older, it gets exponentially harder. It's so much harder now. Trust me. All right. Well, you guys would know. Neither one of you guys are out of shape. But I'm just saying you love your treats. You couldn't have any treats before.

But wait until you see the documentary that we filmed because I'm fat as a house. No, you're not. Oh, yeah. No, you're not. Here's the other thing. Jay, I will say this. You like your treats too. You just deprive yourself. You live in a state of absolute deprivation because... That's what blows my mind. It's like you... The warden has you on a tight... on a pretty tight sketch. Oh, she sure does.

And she shames you. I've seen her shame you on food, especially on a Saturday night. Remember somebody brought that gooey cake a couple weeks ago on the Saturday night amongst the treats and it was so good? I brought those.

No, no, no, no, no. You didn't bring... No, you didn't. You brought a bag of cookies from the back of your pantry that was shattered. Every single cookie was just in... You brought a bag of Tate's. Yeah, Tate's that had been dropped behind your car. You backed up to pick it up, accidentally ran it over, then grabbed it, then brought it and dumped it into a bowl as dessert. That's kind of true. You're like, hey guys, I brought a really special dessert and you brought it to Tate's like, oh,

Cool, we can all go to Safeway, man. We know where to shop. Like, what are you doing? Anyway. No, no, listen. This is what, go ahead. Well, I was just saying somebody else's guest brought these gooey chocolate cake type brownie thing. And Jason really liked it. And he took a couple bites. And then the warden shot him a look. I looked up and found the warden's eyes. She was like, she's going to throw him in the hole for 10 days. He's going nuts.

Listen, this is, my life would be a disaster without my better half, okay? I know. But now look at this. I'm drinking tea, and it tastes like candy because I put like four packs of sugar in it and cream. Because you still didn't have enough sweet in your palate from last night? You know, Sean, can I just say this, and I don't want to plug this brand, but they're really good. I use that Trulia now, which is like a natural, like it's a sweetener. Stevia. Yeah. You mean the ones with carcinogens in them? No, no, not at all. It's a plant, ding dong.

Hey, listen. So, Stevie is the best. Listen, when I'm one of the people giving you eulogies, saying, like, he was really concerned about carcinogens. How did he die of his fucking raging diabetes? But, man, he was worried about the carcinogens. It's fucking, like... I know. I know. It's bad. It's so nice try. It's really bad. Well, let me tell you about somebody who just seems incredibly healthy. All right? Uh-huh.

Her whole thing is just a healthy glow. Her talent just radiates health. You're so lazy. You're so into it. You're so lazy. I was trying to blend. Wasn't that a nice transition? Here we go. Guys. Start at the top. I'm going to just let her take over because she's the best. I've never seen you voted.

I know. I'm not phoning anything in. I'm just pissed off about something this morning, and I don't want to drag it into the podcast. Don't. Okay. We have one of our best actors going, all right? She's been doing incredible work for about 25 years, yet she's more than 10 years younger than all of us, all right? She's got two Emmys, two Globes, two SAGs, two Critics' Choice Awards. What? She's an L.A. native. She's got a British dad, a Swedish mom. She's got a Chinese parrot that speaks Dutch.

She can explain. This is Elizabeth Moss, everybody. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I love you, Elizabeth Moss. Elizabeth, I'm sorry we're late. I'm so fascinated about the Chinese duck or parrot that speaks Dutch. Ducks don't talk. Wikipedia is...

Oh my gosh, it's so nice to meet you. Wikipedia is always accurate. It's so nice to meet you. She's got real fancy lights in her shot, guys. She lives in a nice home. They're a little much. I will say, Sean, though, I did have a piece of cake last night and I was here on time.

- Wow, good for you. - It's 'cause you didn't have half a cake. You just had a piece. - Good for you. I love that. - Very good. - Elizabeth, the last time I saw you, we kissed. - Oh, what? - That's right. - Yeah. - We should just leave it there. - Don't explain. - Don't explain anything else. Just leave that right there. - What were you celebrating last night? The memory of that kiss with Will Arnett? What was the cake for? - Yes. Absolutely no reason whatsoever except I wanted cake. - Really? - So I ordered cake. Yeah.

Wait, like an Uber Eats order cake? Yeah. Come on. Seamless. Yeah, from Magnolia Bakery. You just ordered cake. Yeah. I was craving cake, like that icing that they have. Sure. And I live in New York and I was like, you know what? I can have that if I want. So I ordered it. Do you take care of yourself like that? Like when you want something and you're like, you know what? I'm going to treat myself. I'm just going to go ahead and do it.

- For the most part, not so much. When I'm working, I'm a little bit more, I try to be a little bit healthier and a little bit more conducive to the hours. - What do you mean, like other treats even? Like just like, you know, like, you know what? I've always liked that car. I'm gonna get that car. Or look at that nice blouse. Sean, you know? Like Sean does not walk by a blouse he doesn't love. Neither will not pass it. - Never met one, never met one. - I hear you, I hear you.

I think everything in moderation is okay. I know, but you know what? What's moderation? But isn't it kind of like, because my brain goes, well, gosh, I was so deprived as a kid because of the way we grew up that now I'm like, I'm an adult and I can't stop that thing in my head that says I can have anything I want to eat whenever I want it. Like I don't need permission. We're lucky. Yep. It's not even about the thing itself. It was just about the fact that I could order it if I wanted to and it would come and then I could eat it.

What were you watching on TV when the cake arrived? Real Housewives of New York City. Here we go. I want to know about all the guilty pleasures. So have you done all the regions? Have you done Atlanta?

- A little bit. I've dabbled in everything, but New York and New Jersey are the ones I've really focused on, and New York is definitely the one I've watched multiple times. - Jersey does give a lot of color though, right? - Can we just pause for a second? - Yeah, it really does. - What kind of cake was it? I'm interested. Like given that you have every opportunity to order any flavor. - Any cake. - Yeah, which one do you get? - Any cake in the world.

It was just the Magnolia Bakery, you know, just the white cake with the buttercream frosting. Wow. It's the classic. Really? Now, those are cupcakes though, right? Yeah, but they also have slices of cake if you don't want to mess around with a cupcake.

Same thing, different shape. Exactly. Same thing. Yeah, but listen, I love cake as well. It sounds like you love cake, and I like that about you. I'm a big cake person. And when I hear people saying they don't like cake, I just think, what is, what? What's wrong with you? Well, I prefer pie. Really? Okay. So, yeah, I mean, exactly. That's a great example. What kind of pie? Hot fruit. Any kind of pie. Hot fruit. I thought you were going to say, what kind of monster are you?

Well, pie, I do like a fruit pie, but I like the crispy, hot crust, you know? I don't like soft fruit. Warm fruit is disgusting. Yeah, I don't like that. I like pie. I like pie a lot, and I love like an apple brown Betty, something like that. Boy, that's good.

Apple crisps, whatever. What about a crumble? Sure. What about a pecan? Yeah. Oh yeah, pecan. Nothing worse for you than a pecan pie. Why? That's the fattiest dessert you can have. Absolutely. Nothing tastes better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so good.

So sugary and fatty. Wait. Now, Elizabeth, do you know this deal? Now, if you knew this, you might not get a slice next time. You get a real cupcake where you take the top of a cupcake, you twist it so that it separates from the bottom, flip it over, make a sandwich out of it, and then you don't get the frosting up the nose. That's a good idea. Yeah, that's advanced level. Yeah. I think I got that on Reddit. I'll do it tonight.

Yeah, I've been eating cupcakes wrong for years. So Elizabeth, where are you? So do people call you Liz? Do you hate Beth? Lizzie. Lizzie's perfect. That's what people call you, Lizzie. It's so nice to meet you, Sean. You too. I'm such a big fan. Yeah, same. Give it another few minutes. Wait, and so you grew up in L.A.? I didn't know that. I did. I grew up in L.A. until I was about 19, and then I moved to New York. So I've lived in New York for over 20 years now. She went there to study dance, guys. She went to New York to study dance. Oh, New York, I mean.

Ask her about dance. Ask her about ballet. Pursuing a ballet career. And then acting got in the way. Go ahead. I didn't know you knew so much about me, Jason. Yeah. Wait, do you still do ballet? Do you still dance? No, I wish. I wish. Yeah. Well, you can dance if you want to. You can leave your friends behind. Song, song, song, song.

So you're studying dance and ballet specifically in New York? Yeah. And then what was the acting pursuit? Just something like, oh, maybe I can book a few commercials and pay for some rent while I'm studying dance? Or how did it come about? It was kind of a 50-50. I loved both of them. And I started acting when I was really young. But acting's...

It's easier to kind of keep up than dancing, dancing. You have to go, obviously, every day. And it becomes your life. Also, there's a finite, you know. Exactly. Exactly. And so at about 15, I had this choice of whether or not to carry on and go to school year round and, you know, look at joining a company and everything. 15, which isn't that crazy? Now looking back, you're like, Jesus, I was a child. I said this on the podcast before. Then don't say it again. Yeah.

Why would you repeat yourself? Because Elizabeth hasn't heard it. I can see why Sean didn't want to come. I used to do stand-up in L.A. and one of my first opening jokes was terrible. They say doing ballet is one of the most difficult things you could ever do, so I say just don't do it.

And then you'd... Do you tell the joke after that? When do you tell the... When's the joke coming? I like it. I would have laughed. Okay, so wait. So yeah, when I was 15, I decided... I had some sort of mature thinking and thought...

You know, gosh, if I keep doing this, if I'm lucky, if I don't get injured, if I'm successful at all, I'll be done by, what, 35? Yeah. And now that I'm 40, I'm so glad that I had that sort of decision and made the right one. And I couldn't leave acting either. It was sort of one of those...

I could think about a life without ballet, but I couldn't imagine not acting. Acting felt like who I was. Ballet felt like something I was doing. Well, what was your first professional acting gig?

I think my, I did like a couple commercials when I was like really little. And then I think my first real professional gig was this lifetime movie called Lucky Chances. Chances. Oh, yeah. Wonderful. Loved it. Sean's familiar. And it was, I played a girl whose mom died. And my mom was one of your former guests, Sandra Bullock. Come on. No way. That's because you played your mom.

Yeah, she played my mom and I had to find her dead face down in the pool. And I was like six or seven years old and I was like, this is awesome. I love this. Let's keep doing this. So you were six or seven years old. She was dead in a pool.

You're 40. She was your mom. She's going to love this story. Yeah, she's going to love it a lot. I've never talked to her about it. She's only 42 or 43. It's extraordinary. You've never talked to her about it? No, I haven't. And I've met her briefly backstage at like a thing. And I'm so intimidated by her because I love her so much. Sweetest, greatest, nicest ever. I know. And that's what I've heard. And I just have never had the balls to bring it up. We'll be right back. Back to the show.

Now, here's what I don't understand. As you were saying, as an actor, you can age into all kinds of roles. Like you're never too old to be an actor because you just play older parts. Why can't that be the case with dancing? Wouldn't you love to see...

some sort of dancing company of people north of 50. Yeah. It would be amazing. It would be comedic, right? Doing the box tap. That's all I could do. How dare you? Comedic. High jumps and stuff. You're waiting for an injury. More napping. Yeah. It's on ABC. It's called Dancing with the Stars. Nice, Sean. Really good, Sean. Okay, so thanks, guys. Elizabeth, wait. I just had this conversation with a friend of mine the other day about –

parenting and like this friend of mine, I see him at the gym. He's got two kids. He's a super nice guy. And he sang a little bit. Oh, that's what you do at the gym. You talk to people. And he sang a little bit. And I go, oh, you actually can sing. Like you have a nice voice. He goes, yeah, shh, don't tell anybody. I go, what do you mean? He goes, it just makes me shy. I go, no, you need to sing in front of your kids. You need to like let them know that you can be expressive and extroverted and

and fearless and all of those things. So did you have, because for kids to dance, I think is very intimidating. So did you have parents that kind of expressed themselves

to you to let you know it was safe to do so. Yeah, my parents are both musicians and the whole family is in the music business, but jazz and blues. And so it wasn't so much about expressing yourself. It was just about being an artist was very acceptable. Being anything else would have been weird. Oh, really? Yeah, and...

practicing and rehearsing and discipline was something that was very much understood in my household. So going to class every day was something very normal. That was what you did. You know, you picked a vocation and you became really good at it or you didn't do it. Not that that was ever spoken. It's just sort of in retrospect what I can see. But there were, I mean, everyone was always playing an instrument and

You know, we were always going to shows. My first memories were, you know, going to the Greek theater, The Beacon or Blue Note New York. Like that was, it was just what I thought life was. Everyone was a musician. My oldest brother, Dennis, he allowed his kids to write on the walls anywhere in the house with crayons anytime they wanted.

And it was, you know, it was him and his wife. It was like, she's like, what are you doing? He's like, you can just paint over it. Let them just draw on the walls. That's really sweet. They were divorced shortly after that, I think, right? Isn't that kind of interesting? You could throw in jail. I think it's sweet. But Lizzie, did you, are your parents still with us? Yes. And are they still, are they still performing as musicians? Are they still doing, still active in their music? Here and there, here and there. Yeah.

My mom is, it's pretty cool actually, my mom is a blues harmonica player. Wow. And to be a female blues harmonica player is actually really rare. Yeah. And she's really, really good. She doesn't gig as much anymore, but she still plays. She's really good. That's pretty awesome. And your dad, what does your dad play? Trombone. No way. Yeah. Wow. That's so cool. Do they have a two-man show? No.

I would like to see that. That's pretty cool. Jason, you used to have a real rusty trombone, you used to play, right? Hey, but let me ask you this, Lizzie. The other question is, did they, so they performed jazz. Yep. Yeah. And jazz,

How do you feel about it? Are you a fan? Everybody, are you guys all fans of jazz music? I don't love it. You don't open it up to the room, Will. I am. I'm not a jazz fan, but I feel like I'm just one documentary away from being a big fan. Yeah, I appreciate the talent, but I like something to sing back, and a lot of times when they're riffing for two hours, I can't find a melody. Yeah, Sean and I both love classical music. I haven't decided. I can't figure out where I should...

I can't figure out if it's cool or not cool to like, yeah. So I'm still trying to decide. And I'm waiting. I'm just sort of trying to garner a consensus whether I should be like. We need to watch Ken Burns' documentary. I mean, I was going to say the Ken Burns documentary. Yeah, but that's not going to decide it for me. I need people like, I need like Steve Malekmas to say if it's cool or not from Pavement. And then I'll be like, yeah, I like it.

Jazz is cool for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But it's an acquired. You're cool so I believe you. Thank you. It's an, a lot of it's an acquired taste when you get into like the real deep jazz, the real stuff and the improv and everything. It's, it's not for everybody. It's, but.

I grew up on it, so I understand it and love it. And to me, it's very normal sounding. When I was little, I was the one listening to Ella Fitzgerald. Well, I love that. Yes, exactly. I love that because they're singers, yeah. Yes, exactly. Like that was where I really landed was with the crooners and with Gershwin and all of that. For sure, yes, 100%. I memorized all the Gershwin songs when I was like five years old. Yes, love.

You know, so I had no idea when I was a teenager, like who Nirvana was, but I could absolutely sing, you know, any Gershwin tune. So that was where I landed. Did you ever go to Jazz Fest down in New Orleans? No, I've never been. I've been to New Orleans a lot, but I haven't been to Jazz Fest. It's supposed to be great. Do you play? I missed it. Do you play something? No, I don't.

I kind of learned the piano for a role later. I learned piano and guitar, but just for that movie. But no, I never really learned anything. Because in my family, you got really good at something. So if you didn't have time to practice every day, you know, you might as well just forget about it. Sean, do you wish in your family people had gotten good at stuff? Or at least decent.

Or just showed up. So we're in New York and we're getting some traction in acting. When did you feel the first real shift and like, oh, here comes possibly a career in acting? Was it West Wing? I guess it was kind of West Wing, yeah.

Or Girl Interrupted, this film I did when I was, I think I was like 15 or 16. Yeah, because there were all these great women in that. And, you know, Winona Ryder, Angelina Jolie, Brittany Murphy, Clea Duvall, who I got to work with again later. And so that was kind of the one where I was like, ah, Whoopi Goldberg was in it, where I was like, oh, this is something I think I'm good at and really fit well in. And then, yeah, The West Wing was like my first like regular job where I felt like,

I had a place and kind of started to have a community and a group with all those guys, even though I was just reoccurring. And I was quite young. I was 17 when I started on that show. It was high profile. I bet you started to get stopped on the street and stuff like that. Yeah, I did. How did you adapt to that? Was that odd? It was only odd because I was in the first two seasons a lot. The first four, the Aaron Sorkin seasons, I was in more.

And I would get stopped and asked questions about things I didn't know the answers to. How much mushrooms does Aaron Sorkin do? And you're like, I don't know. God. Ask TSA. They're the ones that went through the bag.

Luckily, they were not asking. I had him booked for next week. Never mind. They were not asking my 18-year-old self that. It's okay. He's never hired me anyway. He doesn't give a shit what I say. Same. But then you do, but then Mad Men. And Lizzie, can I just say, I watched, and you know that we're friends with John too and all that. I watched Mad Men. I kind of let it build up for a couple of seasons before I got into it. And I watched it all the way through. And you are simply amazing.

unbelievably fantastic in that. Incredible. Lizzie, I've known you a couple years, and I don't know if I've ever actually said that to you, but I...

I can't believe, even when I think about what you did and some of the moves that you have and what you do in that show, I honestly, I found it mesmerizing. I find it really, really truly. She knows what she's doing. That's so nice. Thank you. Wow, I really appreciate that. And no, you have never said that to me. I know, I know, because I was embarrassed. And then click, and you just slam your laptop down. Like, I got what I came for. Wait, she's leaving.

Now, Top of the Lake, which is one of my favorites, was right after that? It was in the middle. Middle of it. It was in the middle of that, yeah. I think it was like season four or five of Mad Men that I went to go do that in between. I also love that. That was really good, too. And you go down to New Zealand to do that, right? Yeah. That was crazy because I'd gotten kind of more famous for Peggy and –

people really liked her and that was the first, that was the time actually that I discovered that I could sort of do another character. I didn't know really whether or not I was just really good at Peggy and that was my thing and wow, how amazing just to be on that one good show. Like that's more than so many people ever get.

So this was like a kind of a test for myself as well of could I go and do something else that was completely different with the accent. It was a completely different tone. The character was completely different. And it was hard. It was a very challenging role too. So that was kind of a, for me, the step in my career that was like, oh, okay, I think I can do this.

and then I could go do that and I could make a real meal out of this. Top of the Lake was like my North Star for Ozark because I was trying to build a look and a feel for the show and I also fell in love with Peter Mullen and he was my second call right after Laura Linney. How about that? To get the show. Really? I never knew that and that makes total sense. Yeah, it does make sense. That's really cool. Even your title card, which is just fantastic,

five seconds long. You know, like there's no opening credits. It's just that five second thing. And so that's why it's so huge inspiration for me. I made everybody watch that. Well, you say inspiration. They say lawsuit because, you know...

judging by, and I'm just going off with. Jane Campion is real litigious. Deadline is saying right now already. He loves a lawsuit. But then you go, so, but then you go, you do Top of the Lake, which I also thought was incredible. And for me, what it made me do was like Google, I guess it was like

What part of New Zealand was that? Oh, New Zealand. Queenstown. Queenstown. God. And I was like, wow, look at this place. It looks incredible. Oh, God, it's so beautiful. Then you go and do Handmaid's Tale. Yeah. And as a Canadian, I feel a sort of sense of ownership on that book because, you know, Margaret Atwood is a great Canadian author. And we all read it in school. So quite familiar with it. I got...

Again, I was like this Lizzie Moss. I mean there ain't nothing she can't do but we're gonna find it We're gonna find the thing she can't do before it's all over. Why would you want to do that? That's not destructive. Now did you read the book on that and pursue it or what or did the script come to you as an offer or did you audition like how'd that come about? So I was doing the second season of Top of the Lake in Sydney and it came my way as a script and

And I had read the book years ago, but sort of didn't, you know, really remember it that well. So I read the script with sort of fresh eyes, which was great. And I had, Mad Men had only finished like,

a year before or something. So I really didn't intend to get into another series. You know, I was sort of doing the thing of, okay, I'm now going to go and have all of this time. But then I read this script and it was so good. And then I read, I said, can I see the second one? And I read the second one and I was like, fuck.

It's even better. So I got on the phone with Hulu and with Bruce and then I said, you know, I want sort of a Warren Littlefield type to come and do this because I was obsessed with Fargo. And they said, well, what if we brought you Warren Littlefield? And then Warren and I got on the phone and he was sort of like, I'll do it if you do it kind of thing. I love that.

Yeah. And since then, he's been sort of my producing mentor. I love him so much. He's the reason Will & Grace happened.

Yeah, Lauren was like a big dad figure to Sean and I in our NBC years. Of course. He was big cheese. But also, you go to do a show for a streamer, and you don't know if they're going to do it. I mean, like, at that point, and it worked out, and like Hulu, you know? It worked out. Wait, wait. Did you, Sean, did you hear that? And my ballet joke was back. Listen, he loves Hulu sashimi, you know? Yeah.

But the thing was, I wasn't scared of that because...

First of all, West Wing NBC wasn't doing a show like that. And then that did well. And then Mad Men was on AMC, which nobody knew what that was. And everybody thought we were on A&E. Yeah, it takes one shot. And then Top of the Lake was on Sundance, which nobody knew what that was. And so I wasn't scared of the new place. I actually really like new places because I feel like you have the space to prove yourself. Yeah.

as opposed to chasing a high that they've experienced. You kind of, you get to be the one that goes in. They don't really know what they're doing yet or who they are. So they're kind of willing to take more risks.

I like that. Do you... I just said to somebody the other day, it dawned on me, I'm 52 and, you know... What? Withhold... Yeah, okay. Wow. All the wow, I can't believe it. Whoa. But let me just... I realized the other day, I thought, I actually... People go like, I hate change. I'm nervous of change. I'm not nervous of change or risk. I'm not risk averse at all. I love change. I'm...

Are you scared of change? No, not at all. I mean, doesn't it, I don't know how you guys feel, but doesn't it kind of come with this lifestyle, career in the sense of... There's nothing consistent about it. There's nothing consistent about it. There's no regular job. And of course, you know, you get to a place where you feel more secure, hopefully, but

you know, there's no consistency. And, and, you know, you, so we're all used to kind of circus people. We're used to moving somewhere for six months and developing a life there and then leaving and never seeing those people again. And, you know, it's, so I think we're all kind of, yeah, embrace change.

Did some of that sort of knowledge of how sort of fickle this business is lead to your incredible diversification of your capital, your access in this business with all the producing and the directing that you're doing? Or is that those pure pursuits? You really love directing, love producing, or is it a combo of all that stuff? It's probably more of the latter. It's a bit of a combo, but more of the latter. I kind of fell into it.

not by chance, it was by choice, but on Handmaids they asked me to be a producer and I said, okay, but I don't want it if it's just a title and you're just going to put the thing up there and I don't really get to do anything or say anything. I said, so I'd like to really, I remember talking to Warren about it. I said, I'd like to really learn how to do this. I'd like to learn from you. I'd like to like learn from the people who are better at this.

And then I started to learn and I started to really love it. And I loved the involvement it gave me on a creative level, not on a control level. I loved how I got to learn so much about after 30 years doing this. I was learning...

parts of the job that I had no idea about. And then same thing with directing. I loved the show so much, loved the show so much. It's my baby. And after three years of making it, I just wanted to tell the story myself. I wanted to embrace another part of telling the story. I had no designs on becoming a director. It wasn't something that I

oh, this is my, this is the end game. This is what I can do to keep my career going. But it's something you're really loving and doing more of, yeah? I really love it. Yeah. That's so great. I really do. It's so great.

Oh, great. Who's your go-to lieutenant in your team, your immediate team there? Your first AD, your DP, your camera operator, or your cast? Where do you find yourself gravitating with directing? That's such a good question. That's such a good question. The DP, I think, for me, just because that's the person. Obviously, I really love the visual aspect of it.

And we're a very visual show. Yeah, it's so cinematic. It's beautiful. Yeah. Well, thank you. So that was actually how I kind of got into the idea of directing was –

and dealing with them so much as they were prepping episodes. And I would always be there and we'd have meetings at my house or their house. And I was very involved and I was learning without realizing I was learning. And we always included the DP because we believe that it's very important that the DP knows what the scene is about and what you're trying to accomplish. That's smart. And so,

So through that, I got more and more and more into the visual side of it. So yeah, I would say the DP, especially on our show, which is so-- and also the locations department. Our locations department is absolutely incredible. -And we're very-- -Where do you guys shoot? -Toronto. -Yeah. They're like, "Oh, yeah, you can go over there, eh? If you guys want to shoot, we found a nice parking lot over here, eh? Yeah, she looks pretty good. Fuck, we'll just shovel that snow out quick and you can get the trucks in there, no problem."

Shut up for basically. Lastly on directing. Jason, I was going to say to you, because that is a good question. That's interesting because I know Sean and I talked about it. He said he directed that one thing and he said that he really leaned hard on catering. But for you, Jason. You've got to keep the crew happy. Good for you, Sean. That was the most important thing. He'd call him every shot. He'd be like, where are you setting up catering? They're like, Sean, it's in the shot. He's like, it's okay. We'll paint it out. We'll paint it out.

I'm not walking more than 10 steps. But Jay, who do you lean on, Jay? I'm actually curious. I...

I don't know. Pete Thorell is a first AD that I've worked with a ton, and I just think that he's just incredible at what he does. He does so many things he's not even paid to do with every department, and he's just sort of like the secret weapon. But is that because it's him, or is that your go-to? AD is assistant director, by the way. I do think the first AD is... I mean, the first AD is...

in my opinion, the most important person on the set. They're running everything. And if they're not into it, if they don't create a good harmonious... It's so true. It's just, you know... Sean, you started to say for Tracy. So for Tracy, the first AD is...

The first is the assistant director. It's sort of a misnomer. You know, they're not really assisting the director. They're running the set. They run the entire set. They're the quarterback. And when you have a bad experience, that's when you really know how valuable they are. How valuable a good one is. Because they can just take the whole thing down. And everybody takes advantage. And it's just a mess. And it all falls apart. And it starts in prep. We need you on set. I need 10 minutes.

And then they're like, ugh. And you can tell a set that you show up on that has a really great, strong first AD, you're like, oh, this is going to be a good experience. Yeah. We'll be right back. And now, back to the show.

Lastly, on the directing thing, Lizzie, what is your favorite thing that a director can do and what's your least favorite thing? And working with all the great directors that you've worked with and without naming any names, like the thing that you're avoiding when you're directing because you've seen someone else do it and then on the other side, the thing that you like to do because you've seen it done really well. Yeah. Sorry.

No, I have time to think about my answer. Yeah, could you repeat that, please? That's part of the madness, Sean. I'd like to give the answerer, that's a word, right? Time to... Your own answer is included in this question. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's giving me time. I'd give them one they can use if they like. If he were in a court of law, the judge would be like, every time they'd be like, your honor leading the way, every single time they'd be like, just ask the question. I'm the worst.

What do you like? Just go like, what do you like? What's your favorite? And then that's it. Or is it and is it? She'll tell you. All right. Liz, I'm sorry. Do we have time for me to answer? Okay, well, I'll start with my favorite thing, which comes to mind easier. And this I learned from Jane, I think, just the atmosphere created on set that she –

- For which show? Sorry, for which show? - For "Top of the Lake." - "Top of the Lake." - Jane Campion. - Yeah, so she just had this ability to create an atmosphere on set that you never felt rushed, you never felt under pressure. I mean, with, you know, given, you know, sometimes, but just in general, you always felt like you had time to rehearse if you wanted to or ask questions. There was just no ticking clock.

And to do that now that I am on the other side, I know how difficult that actually is to do. Because you're almost suppressing your own anxiety. Oh my God, of course. And you know like that. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Yeah. And this actor has a question. You're like, Jesus Christ, we're not going to get the scene. And so I know how difficult it actually is now, but she just did it so flawlessly. And I don't, I'm not as good at it as she is.

by any means, but it is something I kind of try to keep reminding myself to do. And you have to... So I think the answer to the other question is just the reverse of that, Jason. Yeah, is somebody who is clearly anxious, clearly... I mean, the worst thing that can possibly happen is, you know, after you do a take, a director just sort of sits there and doesn't sort of know what to say, you know? And there's that awful kind of thing where they're like, um, I just...

"Well, okay, let's just go again. Let's just try it." And that's the worst, you know? - Yeah, 'cause it's different than what they thought it was gonna be and they can't figure out whether that means it's wrong or not. - Right, right. And they just don't know how to fix it if they do need to fix it.

Should they just move on and maybe they're thinking about how they can cut around it? You know what I want? I want to veer off of this for just a second. I want to talk to you, Lizzie, about vacation. What do you do on your time off? Because your resume is... Did you just grab the wheel and just drove us off a fucking cliff? What's going on? Put us in the back seat and...

Have you ever been in a conversation before? We're talking shop, Sean. What are you? It's the business tree. That's the new name of the podcast. Cupcakes and vacays. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, so would you rather sun or snow for the vacations? Sun. Sun, for sure. With that skin of yours, it's perfect. Big hats. Sun, although I haven't gone on a proper vacation in a while.

A little bit. And recently, the last vacation I took was to Paris over Christmas and New Year's last year, which is neither sun nor snow. Right. But absolutely wonderful, of course. Do you speak French? No, I do not. But I have to learn for my next role. Really? Yeah. What's that? I have to do a British accent and also learn French. Oh, that's lunch, guys. French. French.

So you're playing a Frenchie in your next thing. I'm playing a British person who speaks French. Oh, wow. Mark Chappell. Mark Chappell's a British person who speaks French. It's once an episode Chappie gets mentioned. Is it a bet you guys are in? He's a great guy. But Lizzie, I went on vacation with Jason this summer. We went to the Bahamas. You sure did. And every time we would go into the ocean, my pasty white skin disappeared.

I would just wear my bathing shorts. And my pasties would come off. And Jason looked like he was gardening in the ocean. Like he had this massive straw hat on that covered his whole body. You know why? Because I have a smart other half. Yeah, but long-sleeved shirt, super long shorts, and still, like, the sun just finds him. Well, listen, when he gets hit by a bus next week, it's going to make a big difference. Hey, listen.

That's smart, though. It's important to protect your hands. Sure. We'll bury him with that fucking hat. Listen, we went on vacation with the kids and stuff a few years ago, and everybody's, we're all in the water. There are like 15 of us, except for at the end, there's Jason fully covered from ankle to wrist with the hat. Do you burn, Jason? I have burned before. But also, panel...

I have had sun cancer removed from my face. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. I didn't know that. That's awkward. Yeah. When was that? Oh, and I don't bother people with my near-death experiences. We've really stepped in it. Sean. Wait a minute. When was that? How long ago? You son of a bitch.

How long ago was that, Jay? Nothing big. So Lizzie and I, because I don't want to run... So Lizzie and I, last year, I came and did... Lizzie's in this, in Taika's movie, Next Goal Wins, and then I came in and I just shot for a couple days. Oh, this is the thing you just shot? Yeah. For a couple days. Is this where you guys kissed? And where we kissed. Oh. And we celebrate this moment and Lizzie turns to me and goes, should we kiss? And I go, yeah, I guess so. And they're like, and action. And we just...

It was just like that. Wow. It was just like that. There were no questions really asked. So, listener, Tracy, there's a situation when an actor's kiss, it's never in the script whether the mouth opens or stays closed. Yeah, let's talk about that. You need to kind of understand what kind of kiss it is, right? Is it passionate or is it celebratory and it's a little see you tomorrow and a little peck? Have you discussed it? There's a...

I don't often discuss it. You're just kind of supposed to know. I feel like you have to discuss it. You're supposed to now. Did you guys discuss? We did not. You did not discuss. Did the mouth open?

No, it was kind of just like, it was like, it was a quick, it was like a celebratory, like a really celebratory moment. Neither one of you seem sure about that. Did tongues touch at all? I don't think so. Still not real sure, are you? No, no, no. No, because it was like we were happy. We're like, all right, they scored. And then we sort of hugged and then kissed. And I did ask. I just want it noted that Will said I did ask. There was consent. She did ask. Right. So it was a celebration over a kid's soccer goal.

Not a kid's. Not a child. A real human. Oh. Oh, I got you. Well, yeah, you're not going to tongue kiss on a celebration. No, it was like a quick, it was a quick moment. But normally when you would do any sort of love scene or kiss, yeah, there would be sort of, especially now, there's even more conversation. Well, they have a person on set. They actually have a person on set. Intimacy court. Intimacy court. Intimacy court, yes. But wait, have either, have any of you here on the, as Jason calls the panel. The panel. Have you ever had a moment where you had to kiss somebody in a scene on any job that

And you open the mouth but no tongue? Because I think that's incredibly awkward. A lot, yeah. That's so weird. It is weird. It is weird. That's like fake cutting me a piece of cake. It's like... Wait, wait. So the goal there would be so the camera can see that, oh, this is a passionate kiss, right? Because you see the jaws moving and stuff like that. But if you're already halfway there, why not just insert the tongue? Well, I think the tongue is considered just the level of intimacy that some people aren't...

Ready or wanting to go to. I'm with you. I think if there's, you know, there's a discussion and consent and everything and everyone's on the same page, I'm with you, Sean, where it's sort of like, well, at this point, I mean, God, you know, you might as well make it look real. I had to make out with Katie Finneran on stage in Promises Promises every night. And we just fucking sloppy, wet tongue kissed every night.

Every night? It's all about comfort, too. You know, I find that if you've just met the person or if there's something that you don't, you know, you're a little, you're much more sort of cautious of what they're comfortable with. But most of the time, there's somebody that, like, if you're on a series, it's not your first kiss. But, yeah, Sean is a loose cannon. He got a massage. He popped a bone getting a massage recently from a woman. He's all over the map. He doesn't know what's going on.

It's a true story. You said it. It's a true story, yeah. Wait, this was in the Bahamas, right? After we got out of the ocean. That's right. He had a treatment. Yeah, and Jason had one still in his gardening outfit. How did you deal with that? She did a lot of drive-bys, right? A lot of brush-bys. It wasn't his fault. She was being inappropriate. A lot. Yeah, and it was a small towel over it, and then it just kind of lifted, and she just didn't care. Where was this?

This is the Bahamas. This is the Bahamas on this incredible trip that they went on that I did not go on. Weren't invited to? Well, you don't like sandals, so... They claim they invited me, but I don't remember. Actually, the last time I did that and said I wasn't invited to something, Kimmel printed an email to prove that I never answered. But here's the thing. I'm worried about, like, anytime I've done a kiss on screen, I'm always worried...

That they're going to fall in love with you. Yeah, because my kissing, yeah. It's not coming a mile away. You know what I mean? Yeah, because they're only human. They can't help themselves. Go ahead. You had one of those kisses on them. Lizzie, I bet it was you had probably a couple of days afterwards. Like, what are you going to do? I wouldn't leave town. I was showing up outside his house. Right.

Lizzie, aside from that stuff, like are you dating? Do you want to date? Kids? Marriage? Anything like that. Say again? What's the question? Kids, dating, marriage, anything in your life right now that you... What are you, just reaching into a grass mat? You thought you'd just slide that in there? Why not? What? What?

We're all personal stuff. Go ahead. You don't have to answer it. I like Sean. Sean and I are good. I feel safe with him. I'm visiting you when I'm in New York. I would love that, honestly. It's kind of weird that we've never met. I know it is. Right? Anyway, I'm single.

What's your sign? Nothing going on. Leo. What's your rising? I don't know, actually. Special skills. I've never had that done. Horseback riding. Okay. Good. Great. What do you work for, Tinder? Just updating her profile. Taekwondo. Just updating my Wikipedia. So no single. I would love to have kids at some point soon.

That's good. You're a damn catch. You are a real catch. I'll keep an eye out. Yeah, we both will. For children? We've set up many, many people off this podcast. No, for children. No, for...

Any loose tails running around? Any available children that aren't... All right, so... Maybe this is out of bounds for me to say, but Sean, why don't you donate some sperm so Lizzie can have a child? Look it, don't threaten me, because I'll do it. Really? No, why not? I am on board. Now, there are banks, right? I've heard about these. You can look through, like, these profiles, these pages and pages of...

Oh, yeah. Or we could just go at it and I'll close my eyes and hold my breath. Or I could just give you a massage and apparently... Yeah, that's all it takes. I've been creating a bank here. I've got a jug that I've been for the last couple of years. Hey, man. That I keep in the back fridge. I keep it in the back fridge and I just...

Even in the back of the fridge. Fridge in the garage? A jug. It's just open. There's not even like a lid. It's just like an old-timey plug. It's like rusty. So, speaking of perfect days, Liz, what... So...

If you aren't working on one of these great things, which I would assume would be a perfect day for you, what would be the second most perfect day? What do you really like to do with your days if you're not working, not watching Real Housewives? In New York. Well, you're right about the first thing. My ideal day is—I'm such a nerd—is working, being on set. Yeah.

Otherwise, I do love being in New York and I don't get to be here as often as I would like. So definitely in New York. It has just become fall here. New York got the memo. Yesterday was the first day of fall. New York is ready. New York was literally like five, six, seven, eight and showtime. Here we are. Like it is crisp. It is amazing out. You like rent one of those bikes and just start tooling around or you just start walking around like Mary Tyler Moore. Yeah.

I love walking. It's why I couldn't live in L.A. I love walking around the city. I do, too. I love walking. Right? So no plans. I don't like plans because unstructured time is something that I don't get a lot of. So I'll see you when I see you. Exactly. Just run into you in the park. Now, are you a night owl? Are you one of those people that really takes advantage of, like, the whole restaurant scene in New York and you're out till, you know, you eat at, like, 1030 and that stuff? No, no, no, no.

I love an early dinner. I'm perfectly happy with a dinner at 6. I think that's absolutely acceptable. I'd push it to 5.30. Why not? 5 o'clock. Let's go. I ate dinner at 5 almost. I love it. When I was younger, I was definitely more of a night owl for sure. And yeah, it definitely started to change.

Uptown or downtown? Uptown. Upper West. Upper West. Near Sean. No way. Yeah. Wow. Are you there now? No, I'm there for all of 2023. Here comes Tongueless Kissing. Okay.

I'm telling you. I tell you what. Sean, you want to borrow my jug? Because you can take it over. Just drop it off. I have a doorman building. Post it on it and you're all set. We don't even have to talk. Hey, Sean Hayes is going to come by and drop something off. It's not labeled. Just accept it. Just throw it in the freezer. Do not drink it. Or...

Well, we're going to end on a high note here. And we're going to thank you for your time. Oh, Lizzie, we love you. Your generosity. I love you. Your spirit. Yeah. I love you guys. Lizzie, you know what the thing you did was? You actually, Jason was really grumpy this morning and you did turn his day around. Yeah, you turned that frown upside down. You really did, legit. Double thumbs up. I knew you would.

I know. I heard you. I'm so happy I could. And thanks for having me. I requested to be on this podcast because I'm such a big fan of it. Oh, that's all right. You didn't need to ask twice. How is that possible? Thank you. Listen, you're so great. And you're such an unbelievable mega talent. It's just so great having you here. Keep giving us stuff. Thanks. I appreciate it. Thank you. I think it should be under her eye.

Under her eye. Oh, I like it. Okay. You're welcome. Look at you. Lizzie, you're the best. Have a great rest of the day. Thank you. We'll speak to you soon, I hope. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Apartment 5A, Sean. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Get there. Get the door open. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Bye. That was so funny. I mean, I never met her. How do you know her, Jason?

We've talked about doing some work together, like that kind of thing. Nothing structured. The nose or your brow or what? Well, we were going to get a twofer on just a brow lift. And...

That's so funny. She's amazing. I'll tell you a funny story. I don't know why I didn't tell it on the thing. We were laughing too much. So when my ex-wife Amy was pregnant with Archie, and it was right up almost the day she was, it was her original due date, and she had a doctor's appointment.

and the doctor's like, no, it's going to be another week or whatever. And then that night after Friday night, she did a joke run-through for update with Tina, and it came home, and then, like, her water broke, and it was a Friday night. We went up to the hospital, and the next day Archie was born. It was the first time that Ham, that weekend, that Hammer was, John, was hosting SNL.

Oh. And they were going to do this sketch that Amy was going to do with them, blah, blah, blah. And she had to replace her in all these sketches. And...

Lizzie happened to be in town because John was hosting SNL and so she came and filled in for Amy. That's amazing. Wait, on update too? Not on update. No, no, no. Just on the show. On the sketches and stuff. Yeah. That's super fun. Isn't that cool? That's so cool. Yeah. I can't believe I've never met her. She's amazing. She's great. Yeah. She really is. Whatever.

What a talent. She's an unreal talent. Isn't she? And funny, too. Yeah, really funny. I want to see her in, like, some comedies. She's so mellow. Yeah, she is. In the best way, as a compliment. We've got to set her up. Let's make that a smart list. That's why I asked. I'm going to find somebody for her. Let's set her up. I'm going to put a list together right now. Yeah. Past smart list guests? Yeah, past smart list. And just guys who are going to be released in the next year or so.

Guys that are... Who are on parole, but more like white-collar criminals. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, she deserves a great dude. What do you guys got the rest of the day? I'm going to go to an eye doctor because I have an eye infection. Are you going to take some notes for the next episode of Hypochondriactor? Yeah, actually. Hey, have you prepared stories that you want to open the show with for next show? Sure, I can do that. Sean...

Why not? No, because... I don't prepare them. I'm just like, oh, this happened today. Yeah. So I'll talk about that. You'll log it. Okay. Willie, you've got... You're going to help the planet by doing what? By... Nine holes of... Nine holes of golf. Golf?

Well, I got a little bit of work to do. I'm going to watch some soccer. Some UEFA nations. Watch some soccer, watch some golf, then go play some golf, and then leave your car running so the air conditioning can be on in a parking lot somewhere. You know what? Sometimes you got to let things go, or as I always say, let bygones be bygones. Sean, you don't need to duet the by, okay? Fuck.

Why not? You don't fucking say it at all. I got to make up for you. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Michael Grant Terry, Rob Armjarv, and Bennett Barbico. Smart. Less.

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