"Thom Yorke & Jonny Greenwood"
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Oh, morning, Angel. How'd you sleep last night? I slept really great. All right, move your arm. Move your arm. Okay, sorry, sorry. Sorry. We did a lot of kicking last night. I know. I had this recurring thing that I just, I kept thinking like, it was, you were running away from me. Oh, you're kind of breathy this morning. You just back up just a little bit. It was that. That's what you said in the dream. Dream's reality.

No, see right there, those exhales of depression is what really smells. Okay, well bring your nose up close and smell. You ready for this? Yeah. It's an all new Smartless. What do you got, a coffee milkshake?

No. I've got a smoothie. Milkshake. It's a milkshake. Almond butter and just a bunch of healthy stuff. Have you guys seen... I know, Jason, you haven't. The original Danish version of The Killing? No, man. First of all, I know I had you at Danish because you're like, what kind? I'm so international. That's for sure. Tell us about it, Will, so we can get in here with the scissors and cut this out. Go ahead, Will. God, it's so...

It's so, so good. Okay, wait. I started watching Boba Fett. That you have to check out. Oh, Jesus Christ. That's the new Star Wars one? Yeah. Did you and Scotty put on your comfy couch socks and take in a couple episodes? Yeah, we put on our Star Wars onesies. Is it better than, what's the other one that's on? The Mandalorian? Is it better than that? It's just as good, yeah. That's a politic of you. Yeah, no, it's really good. Guys, we got serious people waiting to come on. People?

Yeah, actually I did a double book here and you're welcome. Okay, well I haven't said to say. So just hush. Okay. Yeah, you will. The killing is Danish. It's a Danish show. I got it. Fellas, today's a tough one for me. Today's guests are from my dream list.

That is a list that I gave our producer, Michael, before we even began. These are people that we'll never get. They're just examples of the kinds of folks that I would die to be trapped in an elevator with. I never asked him for an update on pursuing these folks because... Call the notes. I never asked him for an update on pursuing these folks because that would be a waste of my time. But a month ago, he surprised me with a text out of nowhere that said these guys were coming on. So, a tough day for me.

These fellas are in a band. It is, in my opinion, the best band and has been since they started. They have a new band that we're going to talk about, but the one you're going to know them from has consistently given us music that is never routine. It's always challenging in the best way and never two songs the same. They met in school along with their other bandmates and they've been playing together ever since. That's admirable because they're as old as we are.

They've released nine plus albums, sold over 30 million copies, won six Grammys, and were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2019. Fellas, if this is a dream, I'm good to stay down, smother me with a pillow, and say night-night.

Please welcome from my favorite band in the world, Yes Will Radiohead, Tom York and Johnny Green. No way. No fucking way. I knew it. I knew it. When you said they had a new band, I was like, I know it because I've heard the new single. These guys are incredible. Are you kidding? Tom and Johnny, my God, what an honor and pleasure to have you guys here. Jason, we saw these guys together, didn't we? Not like 2003?

I don't remember if I was with you because I was probably in a blackout of pleasure. But sure, if you were there, great. Where was that? Was it Hollywood Bowl, Will? Hollywood Bowl, yeah. Oh, okay. Well, while we're on the subject of that, can you whisper to us when we might be able to see you live again? Which? Which?

So Radiohead, when do you think we might hear a new album or see you live again? Again, something I was going to ease you into, but let's get into it.

No idea. You can't even whisper it? Really no idea. Well, we like to tour when we have new songs and we only have new songs when we make a new record and we only seem to make a record in increasingly blue moons. So who knows? But Smile, you're close to finishing that. That new single you guys released the other day was incredible to hear. Thank you. Yeah, that's pretty much, there was a bit of a delay while we, what was I doing? I actually was trying to do the artwork. Yeah.

I was trying to do the pictures. Of all the things to delay a record, that is the first time that's been the thing. So the songs are done with that and you're just working on the artwork for the album? It's pretty much done. I think I even have a title, but I'm not going to tell you what that is yet. That's taken a long time. All right. It's all taken a long time. I think it's partly just the...

Not being able to see each other for prolonged periods of time. Being told to stay indoors. I do a bunch of great research on Wikipedia and I think the one thing they did say or implied is that Smile was maybe kind of a COVID baby. Was it something that you guys put... Like this podcast for us was just us trying to communicate while we're separated. Is that how Smile came about? Well, in actual fact, no. It came about...

really, really quickly and then painfully long. We got into a studio and Johnny and Tom had already, it felt like they'd like tracked about four things before I even knew what was going on.

And then sort of lockdown happened shortly after. This is Skinner, the drummer. Tom Skinner, yeah. Gotcha. And then I was left with what we'd recorded on tape, which was fine, really fun to go on to tape again. And then I was sat there trying to puzzle out the lyrics for a very long time, locked in a house. And then it got sort of protracted and protracted. It was deeply frustrating, but it's been the same for everybody. I mean, I have figured out a way to record...

vocals like over the internet straight into Nigel's studio. That was pretty wild. Wow. So I was kind of like virtually into his studio. Did you do that like on an ISDN or like on SourceConnect? Yeah, SourceConnect. But, you know, anything after 4 o'clock, forget it because that's when the kids get home from school. Yeah. Like that's it. Yeah.

Same. Is that an atypical way for you guys to make music where the music happens first and then the lyrics? I apologize, but you get this question a lot. I've actually asked it a few times to musicians. And the consensus is that it's a little of each. Sometimes it's music first, sometimes it's lyrics first. Or is there like one you prefer? Is there like a set, you know what, I really, really want to focus on lyrics first? Because I always find that fascinating too, just the birth of a song.

Well, yeah, it does depend. I think Johnny had come with a bunch of ideas and I hadn't seen him for a while so they all just came pouring out before I could go, wait, wait, wait. So there was a lot of me sort of retrospectively going, okay, what am I going to do with that? Which was really nice. It was a really...

Like a challenge for me. And then there are other ones like the one we released last week, You Will Never Work in Television Again. Yeah. Odd. Odd to Sean Hayes. Was that pointed at Sean? Yeah. How did you guys know about Sean's future? I don't think it's unique to Sean. How did you guys, do you guys remember writing your first,

Your first song, like how did that go? First ever. Yeah, first ever. Like was it music for like that? How did it, I don't know, how did it, how did you go like, hey, we've written a song? You know what I mean? I remember writing one when I was 11 called Mushroom Cloud. Huh. But I can only remember half the riff now and none of the lyrics. But then Johnny, I remember Johnny and I like we borrowed a four track off someone, went around to his mom's house.

Was this at, what is it, Abingdon School where you guys all met? Yeah. Yes. And the band was On a Friday because, guys, that was when they decided to record, right? Mm-hmm. Wait, back to the songwriting thing. Do you guys ever, because I do this sometimes, I'll be dreaming of...

the most incredible like lick or lyrics or something not that I write music but I'm like wow that's amazing I can't wait to wake up I'm gonna remember and of course I never remember have you ever dreamt a song and actually remembered it and then wrote it bits bits bits of it but it's never it's it's almost it's always slightly underwhelming

Not quite as genius as you thought it was at that moment just before you woke up. I actually know the story of these two musicians whom we all...

know and revere and have been doing a long time. And I'm not going to name drop him because I'll get called out for it. I will later. But one of them called up the other one and said, what's been going on? And he said, oh man, I took mushrooms last night and I had the most genius ideas and I wrote them all down. Hang on, let me go get it. So he came back and he's like, I've written down this incredible epiphany. And he starts to read it to himself and he goes, what does it say? And then he goes...

"No, it's total rubbish." He was so excited, he thought like... Yeah, what's that like, Tom? You wake up and you roll over and you just start dictating a lyric or a tune into your iPhone and your wife rolls over next to you and is like, "Oh, he's come up with another idea." She's a very sound sleeper, happily. There you go.

But actually, phones are convenient because they have their own lights. So you can literally wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning, start scribbling and go back to sleep or much of something, which I do frequently. I mean, I have pretty much given up using an actual physical notebook now. Yeah. Which is weird for me. Digitally. There's really no point. So the coming together of all of these ideas for a song, you know, you guys have consistently been so sort of –

forward moving with your sound, with the progression of your sound of your band and you challenge the audience to kind of get with different time and all that stuff. I would assume that the moment you hear this new idea from any one of your bandmates, as you guys introduced them into and building a song out that moment of surprise and, um, uh,

maybe discomfort in a good way is gotta be the same for you as it is for us, the audience when we first hear it. So what is that process like when you hear Johnny come in with something that sounds totally bizarre with one of these new instruments that he's working on or, or you Tom will bring it in with the piano or lyric or something like that. How much time do you give it to,

Before you decide whether it's a fit or not. In other words, I'll listen to a song 30 times before I'm like, oh my God, this is my favorite song ever. Cause it does, it does. It's rarely on the first one. I mean, you guys are so beautifully atypical with your rhythms. How long, what's that process for you guys as you start to meld all of these different ideas into songs?

Johnny, you want to try that one? Wow. Sorry. We'll be right back. We have to take a fucking break after that. Are you fucking kidding me, Bateman? I know. Jesus fucking... This is a big one for me, Will. Johnny and Tom are here. I think it was something about numbers. Johnny's just finished his fourth beer. Yeah. Great song. I'm going to be bored halfway through this answer, but I'm going to go for it. I'll stay awake, Johnny. You and me. Thank you, Johnny. No, thank you for your candor. Wow.

What did he ask again? He doesn't even know. When you hear weird stuff, how long do you take to decide whether it's weird or great? Well, it's odd because I think over the years and decades, we've kind of learned to trust when you hear something that just sounds senseless, like the early takes of Everything in Its Right Place, which is the first song on Kodai. Yeah.

And that just sounded like a bizarre noise. And this isn't going to be a song. But sure enough, after a day or two, it suddenly becomes this magical thing. About six months, but anyway. Yeah. Do you have those moments, like, Johnny, where you do, so where you come in, kind of to what Jason was saying, and this happens in what we do too, where it's like, okay, well, here's the script, here's what you're going to do, everybody knows their role, you kind of come in, and then as you do it,

magic happens, something happens, somebody does something a different way, somebody says something a way that you didn't, and then you end up finding like a bit, you end up finding a moment, you find a joke, you find something that kind of elevates it, and you kind of look at each other, and when it's over, you're kind of like, oh, that was fucking, that was cool. Yeah, I mean, I think that's all the creative stuff you're hoping for some of the parts to be, you know, greater. When things happen together, it's the whole sort of...

you know, gestalt-y thing, if I can...

Use that gruesome word. Sure. Can I just ask real quickly, what are you guys doing here? Like, you know, is it because... Yeah, why did you say yes to this? Is it because you've listened to the podcast and you like it, A? B, your manager made you do it? Or C, you saw Sean on Broadway in Promises Promises and you just wanted to hang out with him? Can you tell that I've totally zoomed in on Sean? That's the only picture I'm looking at. We couldn't tell until you... That's all I want to say.

You know what? Take a number. It's all anybody wants. Tom and Johnny, I wanted to ask you guys about your influences. Because when you guys first came out with your first record that I was aware of, it immediately was one of those...

I think it's the hallmark of a really great band to me, and I don't mean to embarrass you, but you have that thing where you go, "Oh, I really like this sound. I feel like I know this sound." Like it feels new and simultaneously very familiar because it sort of— I always say music that scratches a niche that you didn't know you had in a way. And I always felt that way about Radiohead's music.

I don't know. Who are the guys that you and people that you listened to growing up, like in high school? Who are the bands that you were like, what were the records you couldn't stop playing? Like for me, I couldn't stop playing the Smiths. From 1983 until 1989, I could not stop playing the Smiths. Still playing them. Yeah, still playing them. My daughter's now playing them, and I'm loving it.

I mean, I suppose for us it was, you know, Pixies, New Order. Sonic Youth. Bands like that, yeah. I mean, the Boston bands, we kept calling them. We were into Throwing Muses and, you know. REM. Oh, God, Throwing Muses is a great band. Mm-hmm.

And did your attraction to atypical instruments come from your early exposure to classical music from your dad? Again, some of the stuff that I thought I picked up here on the internet, listening to, because I'm a big classical music fan. And so your sort of openness to all these other instruments, was that part of that early seeding?

My adolescent fantasy was constantly driving past a music shop and wishing I could go in there and buy an instrument. And it was about just being able to buy any instrument. It wasn't about collecting guitars or keyboards or something. It was like, imagine just being able to go in and just buy a clarinet or buy an accordion. Wouldn't that be amazing? Yeah.

And that's sort of how my life has panned out now. I do collect these kind of things and I just find... Because you love all the different sounds that they can make and how that kind of creates a sort of like a, just a spectrum of... I mean, to me, it's all technology. Just some of it is older. You know, a piano is older technology than a Moog and everything, but it's still somebody's idea and it's a way of making music and...

And then was it a coincidence that you guys all became attracted to what technology and electronics can do to enhance and augment all the sort of traditional sounds of instruments? Or did one of you sort of start with that and kind of help the rest of the band incorporate that and embrace that? I think there was a little bit of when we first started, it was... We were a small band traveling around in a van. And...

Who was driving? Actually, we took it in turns. Me, not often, because I was usually drunk in the back. Oh, Tom. Mostly the more responsible members of the band. Who was that? Can I guess? Phil, Ed, or Tim, our long-suffering tour manager. And it was like... I think basically what happened was we all swapped what we were listening to a lot, and I think...

As the years went on, we started listening to different things, started sharing Morricone, watching Kubrick films, listening to electronic music, discovering krautrock, discovering can, discovering this, discovering that. And Johnny was always the multi-instrumentalist, could pick up absolutely anything, including recorder. And...

Yeah, and then we had our own studio so we could like buy equipment and learn how to use it and that was exciting. Tell me about how much craft work you guys listened to on the bus in the van.

Not enough, probably. I mean, you know, we literally study Computer World, that album. Yeah. In terms of playing it to each other and discussing what's going on and why it's so good. And why sort of... We can pretty much list what every instrument was and how they did every... And especially, they came on tour with us to South America once. No! Wow. And we had...

We had a very long, prolonged dinner with them where we basically dissected the whole record and asked which instrument and what was used on every single piece of that. No way! Which was the ultimate geek out. That's great. Wow. I always did it, gave them a completely conversation-killing opener by going...

By going up to them, they're sweet people, and saying, hi, Ralph, we're all very scared of you. Because, you know. Shit, that's how I started this interview, damn it. You can't move on from that. You can't. And we will be right back. And now, back to the show.

What was the Kubrick influence for you guys? Was it just his way to use classical music throughout his films and the power, the majesty of that juxtaposed with some of those images? Was that – it does it for me with him. Yeah, I – it was a Penderecki thing in The Shining. It was a really massive one. But I remember –

seeing The Shining for the first time and making the connection on a sort of deeper emotional level through that. And it just sort of seemed to fit where we were at with OK Computer as well at the time, you know, as did Morricone. There's suddenly this... I remember when we did... I remember, Johnny, you remember when we did the strings for OK Computer? Yeah. And those players were the grumpiest players we've ever had. For sure. Remember that? You were sweating...

Yeah. Because they were like, they just took one look at what you wrote and they were like...

I remember that. Yeah, I do remember. Really? The orchestra librarian warned me and he said, don't try and engage their enthusiasm because they don't have any. Yeah. Wait, Johnny, was that when you started getting into thinking about scoring yourself? You both scored and Tom, Suspiria is awesome. I can't read music. This guy's the man who does it on Pure Amateur. Johnny? Yeah.

I mean, it's just that thing that when we were at school, we listened to all this kind of music and we weren't old enough to be scared of trying it and thinking, yeah, we could do that, you

So in the same way we'd listen to a Smith song and think, well, let's try and do that kind of thing. But then you'd listen to other people's music, even classical stuff, and it all felt like, why be scared of being overambitious and just trying to... But also, I don't think, we never really saw the difference in the same way other people do.

Do you feel less scared now, though? I was going to say, do you feel, you know, that's one of the great things about youth, right? You're like, well, fuck, why not me? Why don't I try it? And then as you get older, you start to know, I don't know, I can kind of go both ways on this. Like, do I know my limitations or I also don't care?

I think the other trouble is you start to recognize people who are doing in that music or perhaps acting or whatever in that style that you aspire to. And once you know how to sort of do it, you get to recognize people who can really do it and are amazing at it. And that's the moment where you kind of, you retreat a little bit and think,

yeah, this is so way beyond anything I could have. But, you know, it just means you're kind of, you know, you're aiming and missing, but it's fun to aim, right? But the task is different there, right, with scoring a film. I mean, you're being asked to, you're looking at picture for the most part. I don't know if you guys did it the same way or how you work with Paul, but for the most part, you're looking at picture and you're being asked to either support, frame, or juxtapose what the image is, what the story is, what the scene is about.

And you're there in support of effectively that as opposed to making a song or record, it's a standalone piece of entertainment. So do you enjoy the difference in that process? I just treat it as being in a band still just with a director and a script and a cinematographer.

um and you're sort of you're just one part of it and again it's like we talked about earlier you hope that it's going to add up to a better thing and it's going to make the film look better and the film will make the music better than it is and and it'll just combine into something that's that's that's an improvement but also i think the best film music is is where there's a bit of a stretch between the two yeah i mean it's very easy to do film music that's um

that's reacting to what you're seeing on the screen. But I hate that. It drives me mad. It makes no sense to me. I mean, if you're two actors standing opposite each other on stage and one person is just imitating the movements of another or echoing them, there's no point in that. You should be bouncing it off. And also what I find very interesting in my limited experience is the fact that the viewer will make connections that you don't necessarily intend.

So that you oftentimes like something that could feel a bit of a stretch stylistically when you put it in a scene can be so much more powerful than somebody that's reacting to the scene. That's funny. That reminds me of going to your house when you were at college in Exeter. And there was that thing of the craze was for some reason the TV was on the whole time with the sound down.

And there were records going on all the time. And just the disposition of almost any image and any music just does something. And often does a great thing. That's when I started getting into video editing. In the art college, I'd moved to doing video and discovered that you can cut anything to anything. And completely change the meaning of it, yeah. Yeah, I discovered video editing can be like

cutting sound in the sense that you can just your mind will look for connections when they're not there you know uh it's funny you say that i have a follow-up will if this isn't a follow-up it is it is a follow-up hey man i know that you're a guest but give everybody else a second don't don't let me choke the puppy yeah thank you don't choke the so i was watching that danish show that i mentioned the killing last night which by the way can i just say this

-It's being edited out, isn't it? -Yeah, yeah. Can I just say this? I thought, like, "Oh, it's 12 episodes. Great." So I got-- I was like, "The last episode, I stayed up late." Oh, walk us through your night. This is great. My girlfriend fell asleep. The kids are asleep. It was great. And then it ended, and I looked up and I said, "No, no, no, there are 20 episodes." -So I stayed up-- -What? -Yeah, anyway. -What a story. But my point was-- my point was, I watched this scene and the score came in. And by the way, the music's actually really good in it, but it was a very-- this happened last night.

This moment comes up and this character comes in and she's about to reveal something and the music comes in and it was totally wrong. It was the first time in a long time where I felt like it was completely so... And then the scene ended and I thought, what the fuck was that? Did somebody like leave a stem? How many people that went through that didn't catch that? It was so bizarre. Yeah. And how important it is to... It's so important. Taking you through emotionally through the scene and where it leaves you...

for the next scene, et cetera. It was... Yeah, it's make or break. How did you guys...

meet Paul Thomas Anderson. Did you reach out to him? Did he reach out to you? Did you guys bump into each other? I mean, that's just... It was a long time ago. Johnny, can you remember? I think we were recording Health of the Thief in Los Angeles. And he invited us to the cast and crew screening of Punch Drunk Love. Partly because he'd taken the title from one of Tom's songs. Oh, really? I didn't realize that until we got to the screening. Oh, really? Wait a minute.

And that was great. And then he came to the studio and was sort of, I mean, can I say hanging out in an English accent without sounding awful? British accent. Do you want to wear a baseball cap as well just to complete it? No, no. Nothing worse than an Englishman in a baseball cap. Oh, no.

Even hanging out has made me literally sweat. I know. I don't think we've had anyone hang out in our studio except for Paul for about 20 years. Although it has to be noted that the English, the use of the term chill or chill out is exhausting. It's the worst. Mate, just going to chill out for the weekend. Johnny, was it pulling teeth for him to get you to score a film?

Well, I mean, he just, so he took a fan bootleg of this classical thing I'd written and just put it up to the picture and liked it and said, can you do more music like this? And I didn't really know about him or about films or, you know, it was just like an excuse to have an orchestra to play with. And that was the biggest kick. It still is, you know, it's amazing. He came up to me in a hotel around then, in London. I ran into him. I said, I'm going to steal your friend for a bit.

He hasn't let him go. Yeah, it's very abusive. It's crazy, but I get that. You know, I did this show for Netflix and I was like, I really wanted for years, I wanted to do something with Steve Malcomas from Pavement. I was like, how do I? So I wrote this show and we quite literally wrote all these scenes knowing that I didn't even know what the music was yet, but I knew that Steve was going to... And then I got to call him and meet him and go...

Would you-- You know, you just-- It was that thing of like, "I just had to have--" And I'm sure Paul had the same thing, which is like, I was so inspired by his music and it played such a huge role in how we wrote the stuff we were doing. You know, it wasn't the impetus for it, but it was massive. And then marrying his music with what we were doing and having-- sending him all the cuts and then coming back was such a magical experience for me.

because it just completed. I was like, oh yeah, it completed exactly the way that I wanted it to. Even though the music was new to me, I was like, yes, every time, yes, exactly. Malcolmus is amazing. He's genuinely one of the few artists whose records I actively look forward to. Another Jicks record coming out, then I get excited. And I know it's going to probably be quite sort of

He's just a great guitar player, wonderful guitar player. Like the one guitarist I can listen to and just think that's just amazing. Still an amazing instrument. Yeah, I agree. Do you guys, you know, there's these really popular docs now, the Beatles doc that everybody's been talking about and watching. I watched the Bee Gees one. I was never a huge fan, but I thought the documentary was just incredible. Nobody's talking about it. Thank you. No, they are actually.

Do you guys, like for fans like me and us, what do you think of them? Would you ever do one? Because that would be so fascinating. Unless you've already done one. I'm an idiot and I don't know. There's a great documentary of them on the OK Computer Tour. Oh. Yeah. It's the documentary to end all documentaries in the sense that like clearly these people are never going to have a camera shoved in their face again. I never saw that. I didn't know that.

It's very sort of asymmetric and perfect, and it's really cool to watch. Oh, great, great, great. Don't say atypical. If you say atypical again, I'm going to fucking kill myself. I switched it. It actually started off as a sort of quite a positive idea, and it was, hey, let's show people what it's like from the inside, and then it just, it was really full on. Like, it wasn't as if, you just assume you'd forget about their presence.

At some point, you'd forget, but you never did. They tried to hide them, you could tell. Did you think at that point, did you think or did you hope that you would still be together now at 50? Like, is this good news that you guys are still doing it? Are you loving it as much now as you did then, more, less? I mean, the same things make us excited, which is technology and sounds and learning new stuff. So...

Yeah, I don't know. I think while the ideas are still, you know, there, I don't know. Yes, that's all I wanted to do, all I ever wanted to do. So it just feels like I don't understand. What record do you guys...

I hate this question, but I kind of want to hold it for a second. I don't get the sense that you guys are, uh, I don't get the sense that you guys are pressured by having to be new every single album, new sounds and all that stuff. It did, did that sort of healthy level of indifference happen early on? And you guys were able to just kind of continue to make new sounds that sound good to you. And hopefully the audience will dig it. And as a result of that,

sort of healthy indifference. And would you characterize that indifference as sexy? It's not sexy indifference, it's healthy indifference. Okay. So to be honest, we like just challenges. I like challenges. I like trying to find different ways to write lyrics. I like to find different ways to assemble music. I like to learn new instruments, exactly like Johnny. And it wakes me up in the morning and probably always will unless I, you know,

lose my ability to think straight because there isn't anything else. There's not like, now we must move into this area, like some sort of aesthetic agenda. It's like, your influence about what you're listening to, I'm always buying new music, I'm always doing that and I'm always, as you can see from the room I'm sitting in, I'm constantly buying things and trying to learn how to use them. You look like you're in a

70s, like Soviet 70s era, like Space Command, which is great. You know, I went on this retreat once that there's this woman talking about where ideas come from and creativity. And she asked a big group of people, where do you come up with your ideas? And a lot of people are like in the shower, in the car, you know, with my kids or whatever. But nobody said in the office.

And so do you guys, where they work, where they actually are supposed to come up with great ideas, do you guys get a lot of your, when you're in your studio, is that kind of like, does it feel like a dark hole that's like hard to create or does it influence creativity? Different ideas for different things. Like for me, I end up generating a lot of material and Johnny sends me material and then I assemble it all and listen to it in the car.

That's a way I find of getting a really good perspective on whatever it is. So things sort of go in stages. You work on something, you say to yourself, I've no idea what this is, or Johnny will send me something, says, what do we do with this? And they just arrive on shuffle for a few weeks and then I can sort of see the next stage. Okay, maybe this. And then with lyrics, it's something completely different where it'll either be,

Just very quick, very easy, or months and months of chipping away, literally line by line, and the sort of most painstakingly weird anal kind of trying things, throwing them out, trying things, throwing them out, trying things, throwing them out. And to the point where sometimes it's just, well, I've got this syllable,

and I've got this consonant, and I've got this syllable, and now I'm just going to wait for the rest to turn up. Do you ever have anybody else, Tom, is there somebody in your life, like your wife or your kids, do you ever play music in the car with your kids and look and see how they react? Does that ever happen? Do they think you're as cool as the rest of the world? No. Yeah, yeah. They do? Oh, good. What about you, Johnny? Do you get feedback off yours?

I mean, I know you do. Well, I remember being really anxious that one of my sons wasn't really listening to much music and didn't seem to like music. And then this was when he was like sort of 12, 11 or something. And then he suddenly said, I found something I really like. And it's this artist called Lybrak. And I thought, Lybrak, yeah, that's a German techno guy. I'm sure I've heard of Lybrak.

And he said, "But I listen to it all the time." And I thought, finally, he's got some, you know, exciting cool taste. And he gave me his phone and it was Liberace. I think I dropped my phone. That might have been me. I was kind of-- -That's amazing. -I was totally thrown. I had the same thing with my son who's now 13, but when he was about 11, and I didn't know what-- And then I went into his room and we'd given him an old record player.

and he had the double record of Stop Making Sense, Talking Heads, the live record, and he was playing it on his own volition that he'd found for a minute. I was like, oh, great, and I'll just leave him be. You know what I mean? Let him enjoy it. And that's kind of an exciting moment. But do you have those people in your life who are not like Tom, who's not Johnny, and Johnny who's not Tom, that you listen to the music on your own, and they go like, yeah, that's great, or...

My son is a musician as well and he's studying music and when he comes home, he comes and sits in the studio and starts giving me advice, which I love. He's 21, which is brilliant. I mean, we literally talk, we just talk about music. He comes home, we talk about music and instruments and he says, right, I'm back to college and that's it. So that's very odd for me. How great. And my daughter comes in and

Just, well, it's a smile or a scowl, you know, is what I'll get. I've got one of those. And my wife as well. My wife is like, she'll fixate on a particular song, which is great, you know, and she'll see stuff in it because she's Italian as well. She's not coming to it from a lyrical point of view necessarily straight away. You guys should know that last week, and I had no idea that you were going to be on the show, but last...

Four days ago in the car with my 19-month-old son playing OK Computer. Yeah. And just watching his reaction. I tilted the rear view so I could watch him because he's in the baby seat so I could see him and see his reaction to it. It was fucking great, man. Great. He was tapping along. Yeah. My son Noah was obsessed with Autobahn.

When we were kids. Really? Autobahn, all the time. Meep, meep. He'd say, meep, meep. When it was like one and a half or whatever. Meep, meep. Okay. We'll be right back. All right, back to the show. You've had so many great songs, but aren't you kind of amazed at how many times...

creep has been reimagined and reinterpreted and i remember hearing this like wire one a long long time ago yeah that was a trailer for a social network that was amazing oh was that what it is yeah but but i've also heard so many other ones i mean it's just so it's it's there's got to be thousands of them well there was there was one this the my friend of mine john takahashi's a fashion designer

He said, do you have any old versions of Creep that are a bit longer? And I'm like, mate, of course not. So I sent him one that was just basically...

He wanted it to be 10 minutes long, so I stretched. I just stretched it for 10 minutes. And it sounded wicked. So that's my favorite version. What did he want it for? Just for his walk? For his walk thing, you know. All these people dressed with space gear on. It was wicked. I was...

Getting back to your kids, do they ask you to get them tickets sometimes to concerts? And if so, what was the last one? Because I've got a 15-year-old daughter and a 10-year-old daughter, and I'm not really thrilled with the kind of music that they make me listen to. Are their musical tastes in line with yours for the most part? Well, my son doesn't like anything with guitars or drums or anything like that.

So he'll just listen to kind of classical stuff. I've no idea why. Is it though? Yeah. Well, you're talking to a guy who listens to classical music. Thank you, Johnny. Is it though? I mean... I literally listen to Beethoven, Mozart, and Radiohead. That's it. Surely you have to have a kind of angry, you know, never mind the bollocks phase of music. I studied classical music for 20 years. I'm a pianist. And...

I always thought it was funny when people put on classical music in the background as a soothing kind of thing. But it will be like, ba-ba-ba-ba. And they won't know that that back then was like, no, that was hard rock back then. It's not supposed to be in the background while you're cleaning your house. But I thought that was really funny.

All right, well, listen, you guys, I am just so thankful that you guys said yes to do this. Being respectful of your time. Thank you for giving us some. It's been totally fun. I do worry that it's been overly earnest, as things often are with us, you know. No, no. Yeah, you know. Wait, wait. Well, Johnny, say something controversial. That would be, I mean, really helpful.

Yeah, let's be idiots for a sec. What's your guilty pleasure right now? What are the non-earnest things that you guys are doing? Are you watching some bad reality television? Have you seen The Killing? Have you seen Boba Fett? What would you be most embarrassed to tell us about right now?

I'm very good at Wordle. Oh, that's the new thing. What's that? Wordle? Is that an app? Is that a game? Yeah, word games. I love word games. Really? Love word games and crosswords. He does. That's an app I can get? No, it's a website. One person a day. The guy is not monetizing it at all. It's amazing. I do that too. Yeah. That's an app I can get?

Hey, why don't you just say I'm old? That's a lot quicker. I truly am. Tom, what are you killing your brain with lately? What am I killing my brain with? You mean in terms of entertainment? Yeah. We are currently consuming some... Do you know a TV series called The Leftovers? Oh, God, yes. Oh, God, do we ever. Justin Theroux. I'm getting sick.

sucked into that that show's fantastic and how great is that music from max richter is it max richter yeah max richter jason i didn't know you know him he's great isn't he he's genius i love him it's a beautiful show tom if you're watching that right now justin is a friend of the show sadly and so you can just say hi to him right now he's listening because he's always hoping for a mention is he oh well there you go now he's got a mention it's pretty wicked gotta say

But that was a nice offset to what I watched before, which was Downton Abbey. So don't tell anyone that. I watched all of them. I loved it. I don't think I want to know the answer to this question, but I have to ask it. Do you have any idea that I've used two Radiohead songs in Ozark? Yes. I was like, that was such a shock. I had no idea it was coming.

You guys don't approve that stuff, right? I saw the emails. Wait, did you? Okay, yeah, you guys don't approve that. Skim read it. It was the greatest day of my life when you guys said yes the first time and then when I heard yes the second time. No, listen, I had no idea that was coming on and I was watching that episode and suddenly it's like, I know this. A dex dark comes on. No, what it made me think is...

It made me really like that song and think, oh, that is, you know what? It is good. We struggled with that song a lot. Yeah. So it was nice. You didn't like Dexter. Jason, you use the song that they hate the most. No, no, no, no. We just wanted to do it again.

what we worry about is is if we recorded it well enough and it was hearing it yeah in the context of that drama and thinking oh this sounds amazing it does sound amazing so what a great thing to hear is that kind of yeah just takes your focus off the off the recording you're not looking at speakers you're actually looking sometimes it's nice when a record is it finds a place like that rather than the middle of an album where it's going to compete with other things when it gets isolated and thrown on and telly in the middle of of

a scene, a middle of something that's happening that you remember visually, it's great. It stands on its own just fine. You haven't heard Daily Mail in the second season, have you? We put it in a great spot in that too. It's just...

your music plusses anything. Jason has been a huge fan of yours. We all have. But Jason is a very vocal fan of yours, and he's been pushing your stuff like a street dealer for as long as I've known him, which is 20 years. And this is a huge thrill. I can say this for him. It's a huge thrill that you guys said yes to this, and it's a thrill for all of us. Very cool of you guys. We're so inspiring and inspired by

by what you guys do. It's incredible. Thank you so much. But you guys did come off as a little earnest. We'll do some pick-ups. You were the one who said that. I know. You're sounding really earnest. I know. I want to buy it back. I want to buy it back. What's your favorite? This is what I was going to say before. So this is how we can buy it back. Do you have a song or do you have a record of yours that you like the most? Just...

Just say it if it's true. Let them say it. That's a Sean Hayes question for Christ's sake. No, Tom will say it. Tom should give you that. Ask them what their favorite color is afterwards. I know. I'll do that one. I'll do that after this. Prussian blue. Prussian blue. Ask them which one they hate the most.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Dex Dark is their least favorite song. No, no, no. Oh, no, no. Now, do least favorite songs become B-sides? Is that what B-sides are? No, I think it's just that you're sick of the whole album when you release it, and you can't bear to look at it or listen to it and think maybe it's all terrible. And that was the moment of like, oh, this sounds great. But then you've got to go tour it. Is that why you guys or bands tend to change things a little bit when it's live?

Well, you know what it's... Okay, so you're rehearsing for a theatre performance, right? Yeah. You do your dress rehearsal, you get to the dress rehearsal and all you can see is the holes in everything you're doing and the gaps and the fact that no one's going to get it and blah, blah, blah. And then you go and stand in front of people and it comes to life. It's the same. You finish your record...

you think, oh, God, or you feel like you're standing there with your pants down and then you go out and play it in front of people and then it's a way of getting back to why you did it in the first place. It's great and I'm sounding really earnest again. Wait, Tom, I was going to say, the way you said that, Tom, the way you said that, you reminded, you went, holes. You know that the beginning of, what is it? Holes. As in holes. Yeah, it's Andy Warhol, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Andy Warhol. God, the way you said that just, that was weird. Okay, sorry. I was obsessed with that record. Same, same, same. Obsessed when I was like 12 years old. Absolutely obsessed with that record. Oh, same, same. Hunky-dory. Especially the photograph on the back.

You know, with all this handwritten thing, like the way it's scrawled. Yes, yes, yes! And that photo of him standing there with his enormous pants on and the long hair's like, oh man, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen. And who did that great strumming? Who played that guitar on that record? It was so...

Well, I think he did the acoustic, didn't he? And the others was... But he hits... No, he hits somebody else on that. It's so luscious. There's something about the way he plays that acoustic guitar, if it's him, on that record. God. Which album is this? Hunky Dory. Hunky Dory. Oh, yeah. So incredible.

You ready? Yeah. Sorry. No, keep going. No, I know. I know I'm boring these guys. Yeah, go on. No, I don't know. Show me some more. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you. You guys are the best. You were not earnest at all. You were an absolute dream. You were very polite to indulge us with my earnest questions. I had some legitimate questions.

fan questions about the band so thank you for that and your process and all that it's been nice talking to you guys we'll get stupid next time we'll do a part two yeah the other way around okay thank you guys enjoy the rest of your day thanks you guys nice to meet you thank you Jason lovely to meet you nice to meet you bye guys thank you thank you ciao you can just slam your laptops now

Did that really happen? I don't think it did. Did it? How was I? You were terrible. Can I just say this? I know. I want to be honest, and I'm going to speak for the audience. It was cute because you were super into it, but you were such a bully about asking questions. Well, you wouldn't fucking let me. I got 25. These are my heroes. You never took your foot off the gas. You never took your foot off the gas. Sean, am I right? I thought everybody did a wonderful job.

Sean, you know what? No, Jason, I'm giving you a hard time. You were great. I know you love them so much. And that's why I had to tell them because I knew that you couldn't even really say it in the way you wanted to. Well, it's hard when it's your guests and you really, really like them. I know. I know it's hard. They're great. I did some prep for this. I was up two hours ago writing questions. I only got to half of them. Wow. Well,

Well, we'll have him back on. Yeah. But my God, I still can't really understand what they're doing here. I know. Do you think they saw you in Promises, Promises, Sean? Do you think that's what it was? They must have heard of Reese's commercial, it must be. How about my question about the doc? And I'm like, would you guys ever do it? They didn't want it. I was so embarrassed. I know. I was wondering about correcting you on that, but then I thought, well, it would be rude if I didn't know that.

Right, right. You're allowed to not know it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Because they're not your guest. For sure. You know who's a huge Radiohead fan is Bradley, Cooper Bradley. I remember when Kid A, he was like,

He couldn't stop talking about it. Dude, dude, dude, dude, Radiohead, dude. Dude, Radiohead. You know how he gets like super into it. I don't know how they keep making every song, every album totally different than the last one. No, it's incredible. Super challenging and it ends up being even better than the last album. You know what's wild too is like I think the like personalities that we've had musicians on the show before, they all seem very kind of docile in interviews and very kind of quiet. And then you get on stage and they're like,

running around, you know, crazy singing, jumping and screaming their heads off. Like they're just so effusive and come out of their bodies when they're performing. But that's their space. Like they're not, musicians aren't, they're not, they didn't sign up for like,

doing interviews and on-camera stuff and all that, you know, it's like athletes, you know, they're running around like crazy on the field, but you put a camera in front of them and, you know, that's not their natural spot. And so I think they're appropriately reserved. Yeah, I just think it's interesting. I've always loved this lyric of theirs, which is, I'm reading it, obviously, but it's, her green plastic watering can for her fake Chinese rubber plant in the fake plastic earth that she bought from a rubber man in a

in a town full of rubber plans to get rid of itself. And I just want to say... How does he come up with that? And I want to say, man, take a knee, okay? Because you've written something crazy, and you've written something really, at the same time, simultaneously, really...

I think it's profound. Well, that was one of the things I wanted to ask him when he was talking about lyrics. Mind-blowing. But I didn't want to embarrass him and prompt him into giving an earnest answer. But how do you grind and make such great lyrics, such sort of, you know,

off center and, and then not articulate them in the song or on stage such that people can hear them verbatim and appreciate their specificity. You know, like people who write poetry, they really love that they're writing poetry and you can read it and know exactly what they said. Oftentimes lyrics, you can't understand what the singer is saying. Yeah. Because,

But poetry, that medium, that's what is sort of incumbent upon the writer to... That's how you express it, through those words. The words need to be heard in that way. With a song, it's not necessarily about the words at all. As we know, lots of songs have...

no words. Right, but in his case, he's clearly taking care to really craft each word. you buy the album and you read the lyrics. Yeah, and that's part of the discovery. We're like, I always think too, you know, it's kind of like we were saying when we had David Byrne on about like, what is that, what did that mean to you? You know, because those lyrics meant so much to so many people. He's like, oh, I was just trying to imitate, remember the AM radio, it meant nothing to me.

So I'm sure, I don't know, but you could, I would imagine, I wish we'd asked them if, you know, if all of us could have had a question on there other than Jason. I would have said to him...

He probably would have said, yeah, the words mean something to me, but if you interpret it a different way, that's great too. I love that part of we don't need to boil it all down to what does this mean? What is this black and white blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just kind of open to interpretation. I felt badly bringing up the song Creep, but it's like, yeah, it's a gigantic, massive...

historical song now. Yeah, he did feel badly, but I remember he was saying his friend asked for it and he sent him this like... But just like any band with like their big hit back then, they probably... You're going to be asked about Ozark the rest of your life. You're going to be asked about Will & Grace. You're going to be asked about Rest and Development, both of you. You know, I mean, everybody gets asked about that one big thing. Right. They just probably hate playing it live, I'll bet. I bet. Yeah, I wonder if they do though. Again, it would have been nice to have

I had the opportunity to interview Radiohead. Sorry, guys, I've been nervous about this for six weeks. Wow. It's been hard for me not to mention it to either one of you. Yeah. I'm so glad it's over. They're one of the greats. They'll go down in history as one of the greatest bands. They were cool guys. And obviously, you know, they're... I know you hate when I use the term artist, but God, these guys are...

Those are a couple of artists. And listen, it's sort of asymmetric and atypical. Atypical. It's definitely sexy and different. You buried that word today, atypical, too. They're clowning you right now in a text chain. I was nervous. I'm sure they are. They are clowning you. They're like, mate, did you hear this fucking joke?

They think we're the biggest idiotic American wankers of all time. Guaranteed, right now. They're like, who the fuck made us go and get interviewed by these American wankers? I know. By the way, have you seen the new American Wankers? It's so good. It's on AMC. Oh, it's so good. They have the big come to Jesus moment. It's about an orgy in a church. Wait, what? Yeah. American Wankers.

But I'm starting to think about a bye. Do you guys have a good one? I have the word alibi, but I don't know how to do that. Oh, well, that's the thing in The Killing. I watched that show. The Danish one? The Danish show, and I'm at the part right now where the guy, they thought he did it, but it turned out he had a really good alibi. Alibi! Bye! Oh, bye, guys. Smart. Blast.

And now, listener, you're welcome. What we've done is we've created an ear baby. We have mated Smartless and Radiohead, and our little bouncing baby boy song is about to enter your ears, courtesy of our doula, Rob Armjarv. Smart. This show is Smartless. This show is Smart.

Welcome to SmartLess.

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