His Death Was Blamed on Alligators for 17 Years?! The Murder of Mike Williams 01:12:25

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to True Crime with Kendall Ray. Thank you so much for joining me today. And if you are new, then welcome. I am so happy to have you. Today, we're going to be discussing the case of Mike Williams. And when I learned the details of this case and how everything unfolded over a long period of time, I was just blown away. I think it's really going to be one of those where, as I'm explaining the details, your jaw is just going to be consistently on the floor and you're going to be picking it up because it's just...

It's so crazy how everything unfolded and how the people responsible truly almost got away with this. Mike Williams' story is one that I truly feel should be heard by more people because he was such, such an amazing guy. I mean, from what I know about him, he was truly a stand-up dude. And what happened to him is incredible.

infuriating. It's hard to even wrap your mind around how someone could do something so evil to someone who is so kind. And honestly, because his life seemed so great, I mean, on the outside, he really was living this picture-perfect life. And because he was such a great person that no one could wrap their minds around someone having done something to him on purpose. And so because of that, this case went unsolved for nearly two decades. But there was one person deep down who knew the truth

stuck to her guns and made sure that Mike got justice. But before I give anything else away, let's go ahead and jump in because we do have a ton to go over. But let's start with talking about who Mike was. So his given name was Jerry Michael Williams, and he went by Mike pretty much his whole life. Everyone called him Mike, so we're definitely gonna be referring to him as Mike throughout this video. But he was born on October 16th, 1969 in Tallahassee, Florida to his parents'

Jerry and Cheryl, and he also had an older brother named Nick. And from a young age, both boys were taught the importance of hard work. For Mike, this is so impressive as a young child, but that meant waking up as early as 3 a.m. to stock shelves at the local supermarket in order to help his family with the bills. And he always seemed to do it with a good attitude. Even when he wasn't working, Mike was at school. And because of the high value that his parents placed on his and his brother's education, they

They sent them to a private school called North Florida Christian. And it was there while in high school that Mike really began to shine. He is described by many as the all-American kid. He was a football player, class president, and a member of Key Club, which if you haven't heard of Key Club, it's a student-led organization that encourages leadership through serving others. And because he was smart, kind, handsome, and athletic, as you can imagine, he was quite popular throughout high school, especially with the ladies.

But there was only one lady that he was ever really interested in, and that's Denise Merrill. Now, Denise was a cheerleader at North Florida Christian, and their romance played a lot like it would, you know, in the movies. Football player meets pretty cheerleader. They begin dating. They fall in love. They get married. You know the story. And that really was their story at first and for quite some time.

And they were popular when they were in high school. They were popular when they got out of high school and in their adulthood as well. He was voted best personality and she was voted best dress. So to so many people, they just seemed like this match made in heaven. After graduating high school, they both went on to attend Florida State University and their relationship seemed to flourish throughout those four years as well. College was a great experience for them both.

And when they graduated, they both ended up in career fields that they were really excited about. Denise got a job as an accountant and Mike got a job as a real estate appraiser for the Ketchum Appraisal Group. And really, his career trajectory was looking very strong. And that's because, like I said before, I mean, going back to getting up at 3 a.m. to work,

He was just in general a hard worker. His boss, Clay Ketchum, who ended up being a really good friend of his and we will be talking about later, says that Mike was often putting in 15 hour days and that he was just the type of guy that you would want on your team. But for as much as Mike truly loved to work and how much time he put into it,

He also always made sure there was plenty of time for his relationship with Denise. Tons of people in their lives really saw them as this perfect couple and couldn't help but admire and sort of envy what the two of them had. And as you can probably guess, eventually they did get married. And that was on December 17th, 1994.

And both of their families and friends were very eager and excited when the two of them finally tied the knot. They both just seemed so ready to start the rest of their lives together. And believe me when I say the dedication Mike poured into his work was the same dedication that he poured into his wife. I mean, he truly respected her, loved her so much, put her on a pedestal.

would do absolutely anything for her and really, really was dedicated to taking care of her. And here's a great example of this that I just could not believe personally. But if Denise needed her gas pumped, she would call Mike, even if he was at work, to come pump it for her. And no questions asked, he would drop what he was doing, leave it at that.

leave work, go pump her gas, and then come back to work. Which to me just really speaks so much about his character and his dedication, his love for other people, like willing to help others as much as he could, especially the ones that he loved the most. And I think this is a good way to put it. This is something that one of his friends said about him.

is that Mike was an innocently good person. His boss jokingly said that everyone wanted to be married to Mike and I can definitely see why. I mean, it'd be pretty nice to have someone come pump your gas for you. And if that's the types of things that he was doing for her, I can't imagine everything else that he did for her. And not only was he super devoted, dedicated to his wife, but he also was very dedicated to his friendships. He truly cared for others. He was kind. He was thoughtful. He was selfless.

And one of his closest friends that we're going to be talking about today is Brian Winchester. And he was especially good to Brian. The two of them met back in high school and were always very close. And what's interesting is Brian also married his high school sweetheart. Her name is Kathy, and she was also a cheerleader, just like Denise, so the two of them...

you know, really bonded over that. And the four of them became very close throughout high school and also beyond that. I've also heard them described as the Rat Pack because where one went, the others followed. Really though, from the time they were teenagers, the four of them seemed to do everything together

And like I said, that continued into their adult lives as well. For example, Mike and Denise got married in 1994 and Brian and Kathy got married in 1994. And then later on, Mike and Denise became pregnant and who got pregnant very shortly after? Brian and Kathy. I also wanted to know that Mike seemed like an incredible father. There's home footage of him right after his first child was born and he is just...

He is so excited to be a dad and was talking about having another child soon with his mom, just how happy they were. And one thing I love that he had said in that home footage, which I don't think I can play it due to copyright reasons, but he talked about how it gave him so much respect for Denise and for women in general, what they go to to bring life into the world. And I think that just says a lot about a man. It honestly seemed like this was an unbreakable friendship.

And especially when it came to Mike and Brian. If anything, the two of them were more like brothers than they were friends.

And even Brian's dad, Marcus, ended up being a fatherly figure to Mike. And so they were all just very, very close. I think it's so important I emphasize, not that I haven't already, how close the two of them were. In fact, Brian's father, Marcus, was so close with Mike that he ended up being one of the first people that were called when Mike went missing, which brings us to December 16th, 2000. ♪

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So get your baby's butt into Huggy's best-fitting diaper. Huggy's Little Movers. We got you, baby. This was one day before his and Denise's sixth wedding anniversary. Mike left well before the sun came up to go duck hunting. He had been into duck hunting since he was a teenager, so it definitely wasn't uncommon at all for him to go on the weekends or whenever he had some free time, and he truly loved it.

But since it was his anniversary weekend, he was only going to go out for a few hours and then come home and get ready for the trip that they'd planned to go on that evening. But unlike all the other times that Mike had gone duck hunting, this time he didn't come home when he said he was going to. So early that afternoon, Denise starts calling friends and family to see if anyone had heard from him or possibly had seen him.

And like I said earlier, one of the first people that she called was Brian's father, Marcus. And when Marcus heard that Mike hadn't come home, he calls Brian to alert him of the situation. And Brian being Mike's best friend, he instantly dropped what he was doing and went out with his father to search for Mike.

And they knew from speaking with Denise that Mike had gone out to Lake Seminole, which was about an hour away. And so that's where they went to begin their search. Other friends and family also joined in, but it was ultimately Brian and Marcus who ended up spotting Mike's truck and his trailer parked up alongside the boat landing. And obviously this discovery instantly made their hearts sink because if Mike's truck and his trailer were there, but Mike and his boat were not...

That instantly made them think that something bad may have happened out on the water, which ultimately ended up becoming the predominant theory when it came to Mike's disappearance. So they reported their findings to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, who arrived by 4 p.m. that evening. And once they got there, they started what would end up being one of the largest search efforts that Lake Seminole had ever seen.

And well into that evening, friends, family, and the FFWCC searched by land, water, and air. They also even brought in cadaver dogs to help assist them. And late that night, another discovery was made. Brian and his dad came across Mike's boat, but there was still no sign of Mike himself, which only, of course, worsened everybody's fears. And by the time they made this discovery, a cold front had come over the area and temperatures dropped into the low 20s.

So now there was concern that even if Mike had fallen into the water somehow and had washed up on shore and was possibly still alive, that he wouldn't be able to survive the colder temperatures. Which another thing you guys have to understand too is Lake Seminole is massive. It's actually a reservoir and it contains over 37,000 acres of water. So when I talk about the search efforts and not being able to find him

and what a challenge it was to try and find him. I'm not talking about some tiny little lake with just a few miles of shoreline. It actually has 376 miles of shoreline, so definitely not something that they could cover in a day or even a week, which meant that they had to use any clues that they could get to try and figure out where Mike was. And obviously...

the boat was a big clue. Members of the FFWCC took note of everything that was in there, which included two life jackets, his shotgun, which was still zipped up in its case, and some duck decoys. They also noted that the motor was dead, but there was a full tank of gasoline. And so all of these clues led to the belief that whatever happened to Mike happened relatively quickly. I mean, if his gas tank was full and his gun was still zipped up in its case...

He probably didn't make it very far before whatever happened happened, right? And at this point in time, they figured whatever had happened was an accident of some sort. Also, it's really important to note that before this, 79 other people had fallen into Lake Seminole and all of them had drowned. So it seemed like a fair assumption that...

the same thing probably happened to Mike. So the theory quickly became that he was driving the boat out, he hit some sort of like floating log or branch below the surface of the water, and he was flung over the edge of the boat. And because they believed that he was wearing his waders, the idea was that they filled with water quickly and pulled him under before he got the chance to get free. Now, if you are a regular true crime consumer, or maybe someone who is familiar with boating or

or maybe someone with just general common sense, this whole theory probably isn't adding up to you. Because earlier I mentioned that the gas tank on his boat was still full.

And then I also mentioned that the theory is that he was flung over the side of the boat while it was moving. And if you're not picking up why this is strange, let me explain. The boat couldn't have just magically shut itself off, right? So for this scenario to be true, the boat would have had to run out of gas. But for whatever reason, everyone seemed to just accept that this was the most logical theory for what happened to him.

and didn't even question the whole gas thing. So they ended up combing through five acres of the lake, one square foot at a time, trying to find Mike's body, which they were convinced was somewhere in the water. And they actually used PVC pipe to poke along the bottom of the lake because if his body was down there, then they would be able to feel it. And I watched a clip of a guy who was part of the search doing this particular work with the PVC pipe

And he explained, because this, I had actually never heard of using PVC pipe for a water search. I'm sure it is pretty common. I just haven't heard of it. But he explained that...

when you poke down that if they were to hit a body, it would feel like a pillow. It feels soft versus if they hit a rock or a log or something, it would feel hard. But after days of doing this, they still didn't find anything. That was until 10 days into their search when they found what they believed was

was Mike's hat. And Brian was actually shown the hat and he was asked to identify it. And I've seen some sources say that he confirmed it was Mike's and other sources say that he wasn't totally sure. The hat was sent off for DNA testing so that they could be 100% certain either way, which interestingly enough, it turns out that there was no DNA on the hat at all.

But for whatever reason, everyone still just assumed that it had to be Mike's. And so that, you know, furthered the assumption that he had to be somewhere in the water if his hat was found there. They figured that they just needed to continue searching and eventually they would find him, especially because all 79 people who had drowned in Lake Seminole before had all been recovered. So for a while, there was hope that they would eventually find him, even if the PVC pipe thing didn't work.

They all believed that he would eventually float up to the surface because after a while, the body does release gases that would have made this happen. But weeks and weeks went by and nothing came up, which at that point, people started leaning towards another theory. And that theory was that maybe Mike had been eaten by an alligator. Obviously, this is Florida. There are tons of alligators and specifically in Lake Seminole,

Alligators are a dime a dozen. Tons of them. And from day one of their search efforts, people had to be wary of the alligators because they were lurking in almost every shadow. And I think by this point, people just wanted something to explain why they hadn't found him yet. I mean, it wasn't making sense.

And this was sort of an easy explanation. It wasn't the right explanation, but it was an explanation nonetheless. And so, in an effort to provide a reason for Mike's lack of recovery, a private search form filed a report that stated, Now, this was something that was confusing to me, something I had never heard of. I had to look into it a little more, but it's true. Alligators,

Alligators sometimes will take their prey, their food, and store it somewhere to eat later. But even though this is true, that alligators do store their food sometimes for later, there was still no proof that this was actually what happened to Mike. This was just a theory, but it ended up being a theory that most people involved in the search and most of the people in Mike's life really clung to because they were so desperate to have an answer as to what happened to him. It wasn't making any sense.

And so naturally, a lot of people just believed this, accepted this, except for one person. And that's Mike's mother. Mike's mother, Cheryl, from the jump, never believed that her son was in the lake. And she definitely didn't believe that he was eaten by an alligator. So while everyone else was ready to call it quits and just accept that that is what had happened, she was preparing to advocate for her son in a way that no one else could.

was willing to. And I just have to say, I am a huge Cheryl fan. I love this woman. I loved learning about her and how strong she is and how dedicated she was to finding the truth.

It's just really inspirational to me as a mother that you never give up on your child. And I'm just so in awe of her. She is the definition of a badass. And I know you guys are going to agree with me when you hear what all she did. Not once in the years that people ignored her and dismissed her did she give up on her child. And it's because of her and her dedication that I'm able to share this case with you. And what makes Cheryl so special is that unlike everyone else,

She did not believe the theories that everyone else seemed to just accept because she used common sense rather than accepting an easy explanation. For starters, she had remembered a conversation that she had with Mike where he mentioned that alligators don't eat when it's cold.

Yes, let me repeat that. Alligators do not eat when it's cold. And as I stated earlier, temperatures were dropping into the 20s, low 20s that day. So even if Mike had somehow ended up in the water that day, the alligators wouldn't have wanted him. And I'm sure a lot of you are thinking, okay, well, what if they didn't want to eat him that day, but they took him and stored his body for later?

Well, that doesn't make sense either. Because when it gets cold, alligators enter a state of dormancy. It's called brumation. And it's a lot like hibernation. They don't go into a full deep sleep, but their activity significantly decreases. So the idea that the alligators had the energy to take a deep sleep

take Mike's body and store it just didn't add up to Cheryl scientifically. And she even reached out to an alligator expert, Dr. Matthew Oresko, and he made a report of his own stating that there was no way Mike could have been eaten. Plus, of course, if an alligator really had gotten to him, there would be some type of sign.

You know, a piece of clothing, a body part, something, right? But besides this hat, which there was no way to confirm it was even Mike's, and the abandoned boat...

there was nothing else to back up this alligator theory. And what's sad is that even though Cheryl tried her best to point this out to everybody, no one believed her. She could often be found picketing outside of churches and holding up signs on street corners, genuinely doing whatever she could to get people to care, but nobody did. She desperately wanted people to listen to her. But ever since,

Everyone just thought that she was this crazy old lady who couldn't accept that her son's death was a tragic accident. Even when the search efforts came to an end, after 44 days, Cheryl never gave up. But you know who did seem to give up? And I'm sure you're wondering about this person since I haven't brought her up in a while.

Denise. Denise seemed to just accept that this was a tragic accident and moved on very quickly. And not only that, but the fact that Cheryl didn't do the same is said to have really pissed her off. But Cheryl, of course, couldn't help herself. She had the mother's instinct. She wanted proof that that's what actually happened. And she may not have known what the exact truth was, but she knew that it wasn't drowning.

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I told you guys earlier about Clay Ketchum, who was Mike's boss and a friend of his as well. Well, he and his wife did go to the lake that day, and after tirelessly searching, they went to Mike and Denise's house to check on her. And according to Clay, it looked like she was throwing some sort of holiday party. And she explained to them that she was going to stay home and not go out to the lake in case she got a call that they needed to go to the hospital, which he felt was strange because...

She could also go to the hospital from the lake. And what's also strange, or I should say felt very strange to Cheryl, is that Denise wanted to have a memorial for Mike very quickly, even though Cheryl had asked her to wait. She ended up holding a memorial service on February 11th, regardless of if Cheryl wanted it to happen then or not. In Cheryl's mind, she felt that they did not have confirmation yet that Mike was dead, which they didn't.

And so she felt like Denise was jumping the gun. Now, obviously, we do know that Mike was dead.

And it was really just wishful thinking on Cheryl's part that he was alive. But still, she just wanted the truth about what actually happened. And the whole memorial service thing happening so quickly just rubbed her the wrong way. So she took note of it. And Cheryl took note of everything. Every inconsistency, everyone's story, every alibi. Cheryl kept detailed notes of absolutely everything and was basically running a mini investigation of her own. In total, she would end up writing a 27-page single-spaced report

In regards to her son's disappearance, every time something new came up, she would write it down and file it away with the hope that one day someone would believe her. And six months after Mike disappeared, a new discovery was added to her report. Just as everyone was starting to believe that they weren't going to find anything else...

a local fisherman uncovered something huge. It was a pair of waders that were found in Lake Seminole, in the area that was consistent with where Mike disappeared from. And although the daily search efforts had stopped at this point, it didn't take long for a diver to get back into the water. And everyone sort of believed that wherever they found...

an article of Mike's clothing that Mike had to be somewhere near there. But this ended up not being the case. While they were able to recover Mike's jacket during the dive, they were never able to find Mike's body. And they knew that it was his jacket because when they unzipped one of the pockets, they found his hunting license. And you would imagine that if his jacket, his hunting license, and his waders were all found in the lake separately,

six months after he disappeared that they would appear to have been in there for six months, right? But all three of these items...

clearly did not appear that they had been in the water that long. For starters, his license still had his signature on it. It looked in perfect condition, clear as day. And then his waders weren't slimy at all, like you would imagine they would be after being in a lake in Florida for six months. All of the items showed minimal signs of prolonged water damage, even the jacket. They also found a flashlight down there, which you would expect after six months that the flashlight probably wouldn't be working, right?

Wrong. The flashlight was still turning on. So...

it became pretty clear that these items had to be planted there. And I'm sure you were thinking to yourself, well, at least the authorities now had something to prove foul play if these items had obviously been planted there. Well, yes and no. That stuff was clearly planted there, but authorities either didn't seem to care or didn't want to use common sense because they thought that these discoveries all just pointed more to the theory that he drowned. So let's just use logic here, right? If Mike did drown...

What, did he magically take his clothes off before he drowned? And did those clothes magically just stay in perfect condition for six months in a Florida lake? Or maybe he did drown and an alligator ate him and decided to take off his clothes politely before doing so.

I mean, what world are we living in where any of this makes any sense to law enforcement? I'm no expert here, but I'm going to assume that if someone is attacked and eaten by an alligator, that likely their clothes are going to get some damage too. They're going to eat some of the clothes or at least tear them up. There's going to be some sign that there was an alligator attack. But there were no bite marks, no rips, no nothing. So none of this made any sense.

any sense plus one of the guys who was working the case decided to smell inside of the waiters thinking that if mike's body had been decaying inside of them possibly that they would smell bad obviously the smell of death is horrible we constantly hear it described as being one of the worst smells in the world i'm thankful that i have never smelled it i hope i never do

But he said that it smelled like lake water. Like, they didn't smell great, but they certainly didn't smell like there had been a dead body inside. If anything, like I said, this discovery seemed to just give a lot of people confirmation that Mike did, in fact, drown. In their minds, there just wasn't another reasonable explanation for how his clothes ended up in the water. And because they didn't see this for what it was...

Cheryl was left to compile all the evidence herself. And of course, one of the biggest things that she had to consider was why. If her son didn't accidentally die, who would have wanted him dead and why? Obviously, Denise came to her mind, but she just couldn't wrap her mind around Denise doing something like this because she had always had the understanding that

Denise and her son had a great relationship, a great marriage, and that there would be no reason she would want him dead. I mean, Mike had a good job, he got paid good money, and above all else, he was an excellent father and an incredible husband. That man loved his daughter from the second she was born, and like I said, they were already talking about how they were about to start trying for baby number two. So in her mind, at least at first, Denise didn't seem like a likely suspect.

at first because it did not take long for the dots to start to connect but the next detail i'm about to tell you is going to be a big aha moment for a lot of you i'm sure because only about a week after mike's waders and jacket were found in the lake denise cashed out on his three life insurance policies which totaled 1.75 million dollars and obviously this can be looked at two different ways

On one hand, she is now a single mother and her husband is no longer working to support her. So obviously she needs the money to support her and her child. And of course, life insurance policies are meant to be used for this reason. But on the other hand, many people believe that she was cashing out on these life insurance policies very quickly because technically, according to Florida state law,

Denise would have had to wait five to seven years to cash out on these policies, considering Mike was a missing person and not a deceased person. Yet here she is cashing out on these policies less than a year later. And I'm sure you're wondering how she was able to do that.

Well, if you're able to get a judge to grant a death certificate, you can submit a claim for the life insurance before those five to seven years. However, there are things that have to be done in order to get the death certificate granted. And one of those things is to hold a memorial service, which we all know Denise did. And so at that point, Cheryl's like, oh, no.

this is making a lot more sense now. But there's more than just a memorial service that a judge would need. They also need proof that the missing person is no longer alive. And in Mike's case, at least for the first few months, they did not have that proof. And this was something that Denise was aware of because she had already tried to file to get the death certificate before and was told that she needed the

the proof that he was no longer alive. So it wasn't until the waders and the jacket were found that the judge said that they met the burden of proof and granted them the certificate. So Cheryl's thinking about this and thinking, this doesn't really seem like a coincidence. And she was trying her best to get anyone to listen to her, but still no one would believe her. And this just absolutely broke my heart. But Cheryl actually wrote a letter to the governor every single day for nine years.

and never got a response. But despite law enforcement ignoring her, luckily the media didn't. About a month after the death certificate was made official, a local news station picked up the story and reported on Mike's suspicious disappearance. And while it didn't do much to turn law enforcement's head, it definitely turned Denise's. She saw the article, picks up the phone, calls Cheryl, starts...

threatening her that if she doesn't stop looking into things, she is going to not allow her to see her granddaughter. And for as tough of a decision as that was to make, Cheryl decided that she was not going to stop, even if that meant she couldn't see her granddaughter for the time being. And thank God she didn't, because after a few years of fighting in 2004, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement agreed to sit down with Cheryl and talk to her about Mike, finally. Here's the thing, though. They were...

under the expectation that they would sit down with Cheryl, make her happy, satisfy her by spending the time talking to her, hear her out, and then just move on. They did not expect to actually believe her. But after they listened to what she had to say and looking through the 27-page report that she made, it was clear to them that there was so much more to this than an accidental drowning. So ultimately, they agreed to look deeper into the case. And in their minds, there were a few things that really stood out to them, and

And they're all things that I've already gone over with you. But just to recap, the gas tank was full, the life insurance situation seemed super sketchy, and it just seemed too convenient that the clothing in the water showed up right as Denise needed it in order to get that money. Not to mention the fact that it was in good condition. And then there's this. When investigators were going over the evidence of what was found in Mike's boat,

they noticed that two life jackets were found. And as Cheryl pointed out, her son almost never went boating alone. So who was the second life jacket for? Is it possible it could have been for his lifelong friend and hunting partner,

brian winchester well yes absolutely possible and that's what investigators were thinking too but there were two problems one brian claimed to have an alibi on the morning mike went missing brian said he had plans to go hunting with his father-in-law but he overslept and missed it so his alibi was that he was at home which of course had not been proved but they're also thinking is it really possible that he would do something like this

Is it a stretch to assume that his best friend, someone he had spent so much time with, I mean, I said in the beginning they were really like brothers, and they really were. Would he have done something like this? To investigators, it just at first seemed like a stretch. However, two things came to light that ended up changing their minds. First of all, they learned that Brian sold Mike a $1 million life insurance policy

a year before he disappeared. And when he got this life insurance policy, he already had two other active ones that totaled $750,000. So getting another one for a million dollars seemed...

Over the top. Then, and here's the big kicker, investigators found out that now Brian and Denise were dating. So after learning all of this, this whole thing is reeking of foul play. But unfortunately, there wasn't much investigators could do about it at that time because it had been three years at this point since Mike had gone missing.

And nothing had been preserved or treated like a crime scene, and the only evidence they had was a hunch. A really good hunch, of course, but still just a hunch. And then in 2005, Brian and Denise...

I'm sure you can guess what I'm about to say. The two of them end up getting married. And obviously, this makes them look a whole lot worse and makes investigators even more suspicious, but it did make their jobs harder because now if they did find evidence, Brian and Denise wouldn't have to testify against each other. So Clay Ketchum and his wife Patty were actually at that wedding

And they said when the minister was talking, he was saying stuff like, there's no secret this couple has that I don't know. And they say that they sort of nudged each other, almost being like, well, there is one thing you don't know. And looking back, they feel like maybe that thing they were nudging about was that

Brian and Denise had killed Mike. And they had that feeling because they had already been spoken to by investigators, and in those conversations, they got the sense that Brian and Denise were being looked into as suspects. So for the minister to be like, I know everything about these people, seemed kind of funny to them, because clearly...

He didn't. And by this time, there were definitely whispers and gossip going around about the two of them and their possible connection to Mike's disappearance. But at this point, there was nothing concrete to prove that the two of them were involved, hence why they were out just living their lives. And at this point, it wasn't because of lack of trying on investigators' part.

I mean, they definitely had their suspicions that the two of them were involved, but there just wasn't enough concrete evidence to support an arrest. They even tried speaking with the two of them separately, hoping that one of them would talk, but they were sticking to their stories. ♪

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However, they did end up getting some useful information from Brian's now ex-wife, Kathy, who provided two key pieces of information. The first being that she believed Denise and Brian were having an affair long before Mike went missing, which...

would point to a motive in the case. And the second thing was that Brian was not home that morning, like he claimed he was the morning that Mike had disappeared. Kathy said that he was not home. Instead, she says that he left super early that morning and didn't come back until late afternoon. But for as good and helpful as this information was, it wasn't proof that Brian was a killer. It was proof that he was a liar, but they

They still didn't have enough to fully go after him yet. Apparently, there was even a witness who picked Brian out of a lineup, saying that he was the man he saw at Lake Seminole on that morning back in December. But even that wasn't enough. If investigators were going to make an arrest, they were only going to do it when they were confident 100% that they had enough to get a conviction. And unfortunately, they didn't get that confidence for a long time. They knew at the end of the day they had to wait until Brian or Denise cracked.

However, Brian definitely seemed like the more unstable of the two that might crack sooner. In 2007, he ends up calling his ex-wife Kathy and asked her to meet not knowing that she was secretly working with investigators and planned to wear a wire when they met.

And when they did meet up, investigators could tell that he was on edge. Even though they agreed to meet outside of a McDonald's, when they got there, he said that they needed to go to the courthouse and walk through a metal detector so that he could make sure she wasn't wearing a wire. And if he had nothing to hide...

Why were you worried about her wearing a wire, bro? And obviously she was wearing a wire, but she wasn't going to let him know that. Thankfully, though, Kathy was able to avoid that and still talk to him and figure out why he wanted to talk in the first place. And the reason was because he wanted her to tell him what time she told investigators she saw him on the morning Mike disappeared. Because like we now know, Brian had used Kathy as an alibi, and now she had told investigators that

his alibi wasn't true. So at this point, he's basically just trying to get her to align her story with his, but she wasn't going to do that. In fact, she wouldn't even tell him what she told investigators. But this whole conversation was still very helpful to investigators.

It didn't give them any solid proof, anything to make an arrest because he didn't admit to anything, but it definitely gave them more confidence that he was guilty. Unfortunately, though, it would take a couple more years until everything truly crumbled. And I guess I shouldn't say a couple of years. It was unfortunately much more than that. Between 2005 and 2012, Brian and Denise were living in the home that Mike bought for them.

for his wife and daughter, and they were reaping the benefits of his life insurance policy all this time. Brian had even taken on a fatherly role to Mike and Denise's child.

And Cheryl had to sit back and watch them live life consequence-free. God, even thinking about what that would be like, the rage I would feel on a daily basis. I don't know how she stayed strong for so long. I truly don't. However, luckily by 2012, there seemed to be trouble in paradise. Around this time, detectives learned that Denise and Brian were talking about separating because of some affairs and claims that Brian was a sex addict.

The thing is, is they didn't quite get divorced. Apparently, Denise was willing to try and work through things with him so long as he moved out of the house. However, by August of 2016, they hit a point of no return. Brian had turned to porn and prostitutes to deal with the pain of what he had done, and Denise had had enough. And at that point, she was fully prepared to divorce him, but Brian wasn't going to accept that, and...

Just listen to what he did next. One morning in August of 2016, Brian hid in the backseat of Denise's car and waited for her to get in to start heading to work. Then after she began driving, he crawled slowly out from the backseat and ends up pointing a gun at her head. And as you can imagine, she is totally freaked out by this. He then puts the gun up to her ribcage

and tells her to drive. And she knows that if she does, he is going to take her somewhere and kill her. And that's because she could see that he had a tarp and a spray bottle of bleach with him, and she knew that could only mean one thing. So getting him to calm down and change his mind was the only way that she could fathom getting out of this situation alive. And that's exactly what she did. Denise managed to pull into the parking lot of a CVS and somehow convinced Brian that everything was going to be okay.

She agreed with him that they needed to work things out and basically told him everything he wanted to hear, and her plan worked. Brian ends up grabbing everything that he brought and left her vehicle without harming her. And then Denise did exactly what she told Brian she wasn't going to do, and that is go directly to the cops. So I go out to my car and go to work. I work at FSU. I've turned out on Miccosukee Road. So I walked out of my house about 9, 10. So then I pulled out on Miccosukee Road.

I was calling my sister and this person starts climbing out of the merry back. And I couldn't tell at first who it was. Um, but then immediately I knew who it was, but I was screaming and the phone helped me. I didn't know if she had picked up yet or not. So I was screaming, help me. And then he grabbed the phone. So I don't know if he turned it off. I don't know how I never saw the phone again, but he, um, he, you know, was up in grabbing me and, um,

He pulled my face pretty hard. And he goes, he's cussing. You will turn here. You will turn here.

la la la and I kept going straight and I make a slip and I didn't do what he told me to do so then he goes I'm gonna FB hurt you if you don't you turn here and I kept going straight in and then and I turned around and I go what do you mean hurt me and he pulled out a gun like a gun not a hunting gun but like a gun that you would kill someone with and he put it right here in my ribs he put it right here he goes with this and he pressed it in there you will turn well I kept in my head I was like I'm making it to CVS because that's our CVS and

I was just like, I'm making it to CVS. So he put it right there. He was screaming. And so I didn't know if I should go in the dip. Like, I didn't know what to do. So then I pulled into CVS. And so we pulled in and he said, and he kept saying, I just want to talk to you. I just want to talk to you because he's been emailing me and texting me. I blocked him off everything, trying to get me to stop the divorce. I just want to talk to you. I just want to talk to you. And I turned around and I go, I'll talk to you from right here. Cause he was trying to get me into the car.

And then he locked the doors. And then I said, I'll talk to you from right here. Well, finally, he just kept saying, I just want to talk to you. Talk to me. I just want to talk to you. So then I was just like, what do you want to talk about? What do you want to, I want to talk about the divorce. So then he was like, you won't answer my text. I had to do this because you won't answer my text or my calls. Please just call the divorce off. I've lost everything, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then as we were talking, I was just kind of agreeing with whatever he was saying.

And I was like, I knew that you loved me. And he's recently lost his son. His son has decided to move in. He had joint custody and now he doesn't. And so he said, I've lost my son. I've lost you. I've not given him a fork. And I was like, well, Brian, you're the only one who can change. Whole time, I'm sure in this way, I'm baffled in, but he's calm. He's calming down. And so, but then I'm still right there. And I'm just like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And he's like, what am I doing? I could tell he was, you know what I

And I was like, I don't know. I know you want to talk to me. And I know this is not the way to do it. I know. What have I done? It's like you kind of woke up. Like, what have I done? What have I done? And I was like, listen to me.

Let me take you. Let's go to your dad's office. The dad owns the business. I said, let's go to your dad's office and talk to him. I said, I don't want you arrested. I just want to get past this. This can be your rock bottom. Do you think this is your rock bottom? What do you think? You know, so, I mean, I could tell. So I ended up convincing him, we're going to talk to your dad. We're going to get through this. We, and I kept saying we. I said, Brian, let me go to work. Let me go to work. Show my face. People are going to wonder where I'm at.

You call me at work and then I'll come out and meet with you and your dad. I will not call the police. I promise. I promised a million times I don't want

And the fact that now Denise was voluntarily walking into the police station for the first time in 15 years gave investigators hope that maybe they had a chance to solve Mike's murder. I mean, here was one out of the two suspects accusing the other of kidnapping her. And if there was ever a time where she was going to rat him out, it was now. But Denise didn't budge. No matter how many times the detective explained to her,

that Brian was going to murder her, she would not give up the truth. Denise, he was going to kill you for whatever reason you got through with it. He brought that stuff, used it to cover his tracks. But Denise, he was going to kill you. Well, then when he finds out after 4 o'clock that there's a restraining order, he's going to know that I told him he's going to come for me. He's had a controlling rage for years and years and years. He has ruined your life. You and I were the same age, but y'all sure don't look at it.

It has beaten at you and eaten at you. And I couldn't say anything. I talked to him one more time. I said, we need to talk to Denise. And he wouldn't do it. He said, I'm just glad she didn't go crazy. Okay. But you've been living in a crazy life forever. And you finally had enough to get out. I know, Denise. He did it. And you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I don't think you have anything ever whatsoever to be held that over your head forever. And he was going to do it again. He wasn't just killing himself, Denise. He was going to kill you so that you couldn't talk about him later. That is the truth. I've been doing this too long. 15 years ago, he walked in and told you he had done something. Didn't he? No. Denise. Oh. You have got. This is not going away. Okay? He's going to kill you. He's going to try and stop people from talking about what he did. He didn't bring that crap to him.

kill himself and bury himself he borrowed to kill you and bury you and give him the problem because he knows he's got a problem what did he ever say to you back then back then about mike i never had any reason to believe that he would do that knowing what you know now because it took me a long time right well i said no no no no no no even after today even after

Everything that he said to me today, I do not believe. No, I don't. I believe he had something to do with Mike. I absolutely believe. I do not. But this, what you're talking about has nothing to do with tonight. Tonight is what I'm worried about. So this ultimately meant that Brian was their only hope at finally getting answers. And now that he was facing jail time for what he had just done to Denise...

They thought maybe he'd be willing to cut a deal. And that same night, Brian was arrested and charged with kidnapping and aggravated assault with a firearm. And he was held in the Leon County Jail without bond after Denise read a letter begging the judge to keep him behind bars for her own protection. She basically said it's either his life or mine and to please choose hers. ♪

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And Brian did not take it easy in jail. His cellmate, a guy named Wade, told police that Brian attempted to pay him to get someone on the outside to lie about Denise. Basically, Brian wanted someone on the outside to make a false statement that Denise had told them that she lied about the kidnapping. And Wade, his cellmate...

he was hoping would be that person to go and find someone else to make up this lie. And this didn't end up happening because Wade didn't agree to it and also came forward telling investigators that Brian had asked him to do this. But it just shows how...

how far Brian was willing to go. However, 16 months after his arrest, he did end up just pleading guilty to the charges. And believe it or not, he was facing a possible sentence of life in prison. Kidnapping and aggravated assault are obviously very serious charges, but they normally don't equate to a sentence that serious.

But since investigators were trying to get him to turn on Denise, they threatened to pursue a sentence of life in prison. That is, unless he was willing to strike a deal. And he was. And so, finally, in October of 2017, Brian made a full confession in exchange for full immunity, which...

It's so bittersweet, really sucks to say. Obviously, they wanted these answers so bad, and this seemed like it was going to be the only way to get it. They had waited so long, but yeah, he got full immunity. Not just that, but after 16 years of waiting, he finally led investigators to Mike's body, which...

Turns out he had buried on the edge of the water at Carr Lake, just north of Tallahassee. And at first, the recovery of Mike's body was done in secret, and it was a success. On October 18th, 2017, Mike's remains were found still dressed in the same clothing he wore from the day he went missing. So that tells us right there,

that the clothing found in Lake Seminole was just placed there, even his wedding ring was still found wrapped around the bones of his finger. But like I said, this was done in secret. Nobody outside of the investigative team knew yet. So when Brian appeared at his sentencing hearing for the kidnapping charges, people were really shocked to hear that he only received $2,000

20 years. Denise had begged the judge to keep Brian behind bars for the rest of his life, but she had no idea that a backdoor deal had been struck. Brian was never going to get life in prison for kidnapping her, and he also was never going to face prison time for the murder that he committed. Investigators wanted to find Mike's body and close this case so badly that they were willing to strike a deal with the devil. His life for Denise's. So quite the opposite of what

she was hoping for. And the confession that he gave implicated her in the murder.

which gave them everything they needed to finally make an arrest. In May of 2018, five months after Mike's remains were uncovered, Denise was arrested and charged with first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and accessory after the fact. Denise ended up not pleading guilty on all charges and considered it was her word against Brian's, and she and her attorney were confident that she would be acquitted. So in December of 2018, almost 18 years since the day that Mike was killed,

She sat on trial for his murder. Everything hinged on Brian's testimony, which in the eyes of the defense, proved nothing. Brian admitted that he and he alone carried out the physical act of murder and that Denise was not there for any of it. Her role was in the orchestrating and execution of the plan, but there was nothing tangible to prove that. So the only thing tying her to Mike's death was Brian's testimony, which...

They didn't think the jury would believe because, after all, he is a murderer. But things did not go quite the way that the defense had hoped for because Brian's testimony was thorough and it was damning. While he was on the stand, he confirmed that he and Denise had been having an affair for three years prior to Mike's murder. And he talked about...

how that spark started. He said that it started slow, but over time, they just couldn't get enough of each other. And eventually, they decided they wanted to be together officially. But the one thing standing in their way was that Denise did not want to get a divorce. For whatever reason...

Denise just did not think divorce was an option in her mind. And I can see the comments now, and it's happened so often, where it's like, why don't you people just get a divorce? Why go to these extremes? And obviously there are reasons why.

A lot of people have said that they just think Denise didn't want the shame of getting divorced, that that was a huge factor in it. But obviously there were other factors as well. And according to his testimony, she would rather be a widow than a divorcee. And he said it believed it had to do with her faith and her pride. And because he said they felt like Mike dying was their only option, about a year before he died, they began plotting his murder. Well, that's back to the year 2000. At some point, were there...

thoughts of how you and Denise could be together? Yes, sir. How did that get initiated? I think it was gradual that we, you know, the more we were together, the more we wanted to be together. And the more we griped about Kathy and Mike, the more we wanted to be together. It just got worse and worse. I mean, we just, it just snowballed. We just, I don't even know how to describe it, but so yes, we, we eventually started talking about options and ways that we could be together and, and

Denise, because of the way she was raised, because of her pride, I guess I can't say all the reasons, but she did not want to get divorced and stated that she would not get divorced. But she still had a desire for us to be together, which narrowed the options even further, I guess. And boy, did they come up with some options. According to his testimony, there were several different ways that they thought about killing Mike.

And one of the first ways that they thought about doing it was a staged robbery gone wrong situation. They knew that he often stayed at work late into the night, so they considered staging some type of break-in. However, they decided not to go through with this idea because it meant that there would inevitably be an investigation. So they felt like staging an accident would be their best chance at getting away with this. And that's when they started talking about planning a boating trip out on the Gulf where an accident would mysteriously occur. And what's wild is in this

Kathy was going to be killed as well. So another idea, we all used to go out on boats a lot and Mike had a boat. And another option was that the four of us would go out on a boat out into the Gulf. And basically Kathy and Mike would be pushed over by

board, and that Denise and I would find a buoy way offshore that we could hold on to and either let the boat sink or let the boat take off on its own or whatever and make it look like we had an accident on the water and that Denise and I had survived the accident. However, they ended up not going through with that plan because Brian said that he never intended for Kathy to die. Which brings us to option three, the one they ended up going with that

They would have Mike and Brian go out on one of their normal hunting trips on the boat and that Brian would kill him and stage it as an accident. And for a little while, this was the agreed upon plan. Brian was going to convince Mike to go on a hunting trip and make sure that he was wearing his waders. And then when the time was right...

he was going to push him into the water. And the thought process behind this was that Mike's waders would fill with water and pull him under. And this really blew my mind, but Brian said that in their minds, this wouldn't be murder because they thought that all they would be guilty of was pushing him into the water. And at that point, it would be up to God what happened from there. Yeah, he actually said that like,

In his testimony, Denise liked this idea because it I don't know how to word it exactly, but she felt better, I guess, about herself or we could feel better about ourselves if there was a chance that he could make it out of it. You know, I mean, I think there was even talk about, you know, well, it'll be up to God what happens and not us. It won't be a murder. It'll be

So the next part of Brian's testimony talked about the timing of it all. And he basically explained that there were two reasons why they decided to kill Mike when they did. The first being the fact that one of his life insurance policies was about to lapse and he wasn't planning on keeping it. And the second reason they killed him when they did was because Mike and Denise's wedding anniversary was approaching. And I told you guys at the beginning of this episode, but the plan was for them to go on an anniversary trip.

a trip that Denise desperately didn't want to go on. You see, at the time, their daughter was 18 months old, and Denise and Mike hadn't had sex since before she was born. And Mike was pretty upset about this, so he sort of made it clear to Denise that he wanted to have sex that weekend. And because Denise and Brian both didn't want her having sex with Mike since they were having an affair, they decided he had to die before that trip took place. But,

Brian said that Denise got cold feet about the whole thing, although we know that the cold feet warmed up pretty quickly and she changed her mind. But this time, though, the plan changed ever so slightly. Rather than telling people that Brian was with Mike when he drowned, they were going to make it look like Mike went hunting alone.

In this version of the plan, Denise's alibi was going to be that she was home and Brian's alibi was going to be that he was hunting with his father-in-law, which turns out he actually did plan to do. And he also planned to slip Kathy a sleeping pill so that she wouldn't wake up when he left early in the morning. And at first, the plan went off without a hitch. So the plan with Mike was that I would meet him

at a gas station. I met him there. I had told him that we were going to go to a secret special spot to go hunting and that he needed to bring his waders. I had to make sure that he brought his waders because the belief was there was kind of like a, there still is probably like a duck hunter's myth that if you fall overboard with your waders, you're going to sink really quick and drown. So I had to make sure that he brought his waders.

So I met him at the gas station and I told him when he drove up, I was real paranoid about phones and him calling me and there being a record of him calling me. So I told him that my battery was dead on my phone, that there was no reason for him to call me because normally we would have called and talked to each other. So I followed him over to the lake. He had his boat behind his

Bronco and I followed him in my white Suburban. And so we pulled into the landing and launched the boat. And I said something, I had to make sure that he had the waders on. So I said something about we're running low on time or, you know, we're going to be really pushed. And because I knew where we were going hunting, I was in the back of the boat driving and

And he was in the front. But once they were out on the water, it was clear to Brian that time was running out. And when he went to execute the plan, it didn't go the way that he had expected it to. I know I was very concerned about the time. Everything had taken longer than what I had anticipated. And I had to be back in town early enough in time to meet my father-in-law for my funeral.

alibi trip. And so we headed out and there was a deep area, maybe a couple hundred yards from the landing that we put in. We got to that area that I knew was a deep area. And I don't remember exactly how I got him to stand up, but I don't know if I pretended something was wrong with the motor or the weight in the boat was off or something, but basically stopped the boat and got him to stand up. And when he did, I pushed him into the water. What happened next?

So he was in the water and he was like struggling and the motor of the boat was still running. And I pulled off just a little bit to get kind of away from him so that he couldn't reach back into the boat.

and i didn't know it at the time i didn't know if he was trying to swim but what i came to find out or eventually realized was he was taking the waders and the jacket off he got those off and he swam over to one of those stumps and held on to it and he was panicking and i was panicking

And none of this was like going well. I thought it was going to go. And I didn't, I didn't know what to do. He was, he started to yell and I didn't know, I didn't know, I didn't know how to get out of that situation. And so I had my gun in the boat and so I loaded my gun and I ended up circling closer towards him and he was in the water. And as I passed by, I shot him.

Yeah, I know it's a lot. I've listened to that clip probably 10 times and it is just so upsetting, so heavy. God, there's really not much more to say about it than that. It is horrific. Mike's final moments were clearly spent in full panic and agony.

I can't imagine how confused he must have been, how betrayed. It's horrible thinking about what the end of his life was actually like. He had expected that Denise could have been cheating with him, but in his wildest dreams, he didn't imagine that it could be with his best friend, his lifelong best friend who was basically...

like a brother to him. And it's hard to say if when he was in the water, he even could put two and two together in those moments. It all just happened so quickly, and I just can't get over how preventable it was. Brian even said that he closed his eyes when he shot the gun because he couldn't look at Mike while he killed him. So not only is he a monster, a killer, but he's also a coward. Shocker. And it's cases like this that just

God, doesn't it make you feel like you can't trust anyone? I mean, this guy was his best friend. Never in a million years would Mike think that Brian would shoot him.

Kill him. It's unbelievable. Anyways, though, that's not where the story ends, because as we know, Mike's body wasn't left in the lake. According to Brian's testimony, he pulled Mike's body into the boat and loaded him into the back of his car. By this point, he was already running late and wasn't going to be able to meet his father-in-law for their hunting trip, so he rushed home to be able to establish a new alibi.

And the alibi was that he had overslept. So he went home, crawled back into bed with Mike still in the back of his truck and lightly woke up Kathy to let her know that he'd overslept but was going out for a little while with the dogs. But there was a problem when Brian went back out to his car because their driveway was slanted.

And therefore, blood started to drip out of the back of his car onto the driveway. So he quickly hosed it off and then went to the closest remote area he could think of, which was Car Lake. The thing is, though, he had no tools to bury him, so he ended up having to stop at the store where he bought a tarp, a shovel, and some weights. And while Brian was there, he actually ran into someone. While I was in that store, I actually ran into a friend of

And I actually totally forgot about running into him or having a conversation with him until I ran into him later during the search for Mike Williams at the lake. And he said, yeah, I remember seeing you that day. You were you were in a panic. You were you were in a hurry. And he was thinking I was in a hurry.

And then obviously from there, he took Mike to his burial place and began digging a hole on the edge of the shallow water. And he explained that he picked that spot because the water was low, but he knew as soon as it began to rise that Mike would be buried beneath it forever. I had to find somewhere close.

And it was a really grown up area. And like I said, the lake was almost dry. So the water was down and I decided to put him down in the lake bed itself, kind of on the edge of the lake so that eventually when the water came back up, that area would be unhooked.

underwater. Brian says that at one point, a car even started driving down the road and he totally panicked that he was going to get caught, but nothing ended up happening. And so for 17 years, this man got away with murder. And you could argue, in my opinion, personally, he's getting away with it now. Because he got immunity, Brian will never have to face the legal consequences for murdering his best friend. And

And I'm super curious to hear what all of you think about this. I know it's going to make you as angry as it makes me. But really, if they did not offer him this immunity and they weren't able to get his confession, it's very likely that this case would still be unsolved to this day.

So was it worth it? Now, Denise, on the other hand, is kind of a different story. After three days of trial, a jury did find her guilty on all charges, and she was sentenced to life in prison without parole. And as I'm sure you can imagine, this came as a huge relief to everyone, but especially Cheryl. For countless years, Cheryl was the only person to advocate for her son, for the

for the truth, and it is really thanks to her that this day ever even happened. But unfortunately, we're not quite done, because in 2019, Denise filed an appeal to overturn her conviction, and she won. After reexamining the case and the details that led to her conviction, an appeals court reversed the original decision on the charges of first-degree murder and accessory after the fact. The charge of conspiracy to commit murder was upheld, so she wasn't let off completely, but...

The reversing of the other two charges means that Denise only has to serve 30 years in prison rather than her original life sentence. Their daughter, who is all grown up now, actually spoke at her resentencing in 2020 and asked the judge for leniency. She said she doesn't believe that her mom was involved in anything to do with her father's murder and is worried about the toll that prison will take on her mental and physical health. And I know it's hard, but I really want to ask you guys to try and...

respect her opinion on this. I know everyone's going to have their own thoughts and disagree. And listen, at the end of the day, this child lost two parents in very different ways. I mean, for her father to have been murdered the way he was, to not have answers for all that time, it's hard to judge any opinion that she has. This is her father, her mother, and she is entitled to her opinion more than any of us.

That's just the reality. So whether you disagree or not, and that's completely up to you, please just refrain from leaving those comments. Let's just try to remain respectful. Okay? That's all I'm saying. At the end of the day, both she and Cheryl have been through tremendous pain over the last two decades. And opinions aside, I'm just happy that Mike was returned to his family safely.

And given the proper burial that he deserved. And this week, on behalf of Cheryl, who fought tirelessly for her son, who is so, so inspirational to me, and in honor of Mike as well, I wanted to make this week's donation to the Missing in America Network. Missing in America Network is a non-profit organization committed to managing missing persons campaigns.

fostering online awareness and engaging communities to reunite families with their loved ones. Donations to their nonprofit go directly towards providing flyers, billboards, private investigators, canine search teams, drone operators, and advocates to families facing the struggles of having a missing loved one. There is no such thing as too many resources when it comes to trying to find a missing person.

These families out there that are suffering, I've said it before, but there are over 90,000 missing people in the United States alone as of 2023, and these people need our help. So if you're able to make a donation and are interested, I will have the Missing in America Network linked below where you can do so. But that is going to be it for me today, you guys. I really want to know what you thought about this case and how everything played out through this very long period of time.

And, you know, in the end, I'm glad that there was some justice. I wish that it was a lot more. I wish there was a lot more accountability for both of them. But that's just my thoughts. So I definitely want to hear what you think. One thing I know is Cheryl is so awesome. If for some reason Cheryl sees this, I just want you to know, like, I think you are one of the coolest people in the world.

That is going to be it for me today, guys. Thank you for joining me for another episode and make sure you follow the show on Spotify and Apple podcasts. It really does help me out. If you want to watch the video version of this show, you can find it on my YouTube channel, which will be linked, or you can just search Kendall Ray. I will be back with another episode soon, but until then stay safe out there.

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