Cons, Scams, and Adventures in Podcasting with Roberta Blevins and Terra Newell 42:39

Hello, it's Andrea Dunlop. I have a fun little treat for your ears today, which is a crossover episode that I recorded while I was down in L.A. at Podcast Evolutions a few weeks ago with two of my true crime podcaster friends, Roberta Blevins and Tara Newell.

So I know some of you will need no introduction to Roberta because you may have originally found this show, Nobody Should Believe Me, because I was on her podcast, Life After MLM.

But for those that don't know, Roberta was the whistleblower on the infamous Lula Roe MLM pyramid scheme cult, however you want to frame it. And she appeared in the documentary Lula Rich. Roberta has since become a huge anti-MLM advocate, and she educates people on her excellent podcast, Life After MLM, where she talks about MLMs, but also all kinds of other scams, cons, and schemes.

Roberta is also a very fun follow on social media. She's just an absolute hoot. My other conversation partner in this episode, Tara Newell, you may recognize from a little bitty podcast called Dirty John. Tara is the daughter of Deborah, who's the woman at the center of that story. And Tara ended up killing John Meehan in self-defense when he attacked her.

She has since become a passionate advocate for survivors of domestic abuse. She has many projects in the works at the moment, but her newest venture is the podcast Tara's Batty Club, where she shares insights into her personal healing journey, daily experiences, and she interviews experts and fellow trauma survivors. So check out the work of both these fantastic creators, which I will link to in the show notes. And let me know if you would like more crossover episodes like this one. This was really fun to do.

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Hello, it is me, Andrea Dunlop. I'm here with my dear friends and fellow...

True crime slash true crime adjacent. I guess we're all true crime. We're on the true crime category. Fellow podcast, lovely ladies, Roberta Blevins. Hello. Hi, Roberta and Tara Newell. Hello, hello. So we are about to bang out a power crossover episode because we are here at the Spotify studios, which is amazing. It's beautiful. We love them. Incredible. And we are one hour and 15 minutes late for our appointment because we got on the wrong...

Freeway, GPS led us astray, and we ended up driving around a lot of LA. And we got a lot of good gossip in the car. Sorry that you guys can't hear that. That's not for the airwaves. But we are really excited to have this crossover moment. Our three shows have many things in common, more than you might think from the outside. We all deal with con artists. We all deal with lies and manipulation. We all...

bring very deep personal experience to the subjects that we cover. So I've been wanting to do something like this forever. Thank you both for joining me. Can we just start off by introducing ourselves and saying who we are and what we do? Roberta, we start with you. Yeah, sure. I'm Roberta Blevins. I was in Lula Rich. I talk about pyramid schemes, cults, fraud, scams, all of that on my podcast Life After MLM, which both of you have been guests on.

Yes, it's amazing. Thank you. It's a great show, and I know a lot of my listeners have come over from there. Yes. Thank you for that. There's a good crossover. Happy to have you on my feed. They'll be happy to see you on my feed. Tara, tell us who you are and what you do. So I have a bigger podcast that I was a part of, originally called The Dirty John Podcast. I was episode six in it.

Tara, where I ended up taking down my attacker in self-defense, and it turned into a real wind of me starting my own podcast and meeting all of you guys. Incredible. Yeah, a small podcast that some of you True Crime listeners may have heard of called the Dirty John Podcast. Yeah, the real small podcast. Otherwise known as a massive cultural phenomenon. Yeah.

So, yeah, I wanted to just start off on one of the big themes in all of our work and in this experience, these experiences that we've had are just...

ending up in these situations where it's like a lie, a group of lies, and not to a normal degree, but to a completely life-consuming alternate reality degree. Right. And I wonder, what do you think? I think we all have the same experience where people look at our situation and

And think, if I was in that situation, it would never be me. I would never fall for it. So Tara, like in your case, maybe like in your mom, but like there's a little bit of schadenfreude, I think, when people are consuming these stories. Like I would never fall for it. I'm smarter than that. So I want to know, maybe starting with you, Tara, like what would you say is like the misconception about maybe people thinking that they could never be a victim of a scam or a victim of a big lie? Yeah.

Well, I think it's really interesting because what people related to with my story is that so many people had a quote unquote dirty John in their life. And I don't really like to use that word for a narcissist or just like a psychological liar because John to me was my attacker. But someone's had a dirty something in their life. I don't mind that at all. You know, a dirty Kelly or a dirty...

Jacob or something like that. I don't mind if you make that word unique to yourself, but that Dirty John is unique to me, my attacker. And I think that a lot of the interest in my story was I could be that person actually. And so it's kind of the opposite in a sense for me is that, wow, I could be that person. I don't think that they think that they could be the person that survives.

But they don't want to end up in the ground. So it sounds like you've had the experience where people just...

really relate to the story and put themselves right in it and sort of there but for the grace of God kind of thing. No, that's all a part of the coercion, the coercive control, and it's like these perpetrators have the same MO, the same kind of guidelines that they go off of. Yeah. Yeah, and Roberta, I'm wondering, I think specifically for MLMs, I think there is such an element of schadenfreude because it's one of those things where...

You know, and I think there's some of this in the cases I deal with, too, where when, like, you're looking at the facts, if you're just looking at it as an outside observer, you're not in that moment where you're emotionally vulnerable. You're not in the situation. You're looking at it, you know, 20-20 goggles, like, you know.

It seems very easy to say, like, oh, the data is there. None of these companies, you know, are like nobody makes money in these companies except for the people at the top. There's a pyramid scheme. Like, duh. Why did you fall for it? Like, what do you think is wrong with the way people frame, like, your world that you talk about?

I just think that a lot of people are automatic to be like, I would never fall for that. Like, my mom did it. I would never fall for it. And they don't really understand how sophisticated these scams are. And really, anybody can fall for it. I mean, I've heard stories of doctors and lawyers and tell me that they're not smart, right? Like, a doctor or a lawyer should be smart enough to not fall for anything like this. But it really has nothing to do with anything but your vulnerability. Right.

And if you are vulnerable in the moment that the right scam, cult, fraud, whatever comes around, like you are absolutely susceptible to it. And I've had people be like, yeah, I didn't think I was ever susceptible, but I was in this bad relationship or I joined this organization or this group and it became really culty and I didn't see it. And it doesn't happen overnight. It is like a slow process.

And so people don't even realize they're getting sucked into these things until it's too late. And so when people tell me like, oh, I'm too smart or I'm too educated or I'm too this or that, I go, well, you'd be surprised. Yeah. Yeah. And I think where like mine falls, because I was thinking about like the Venn diagram of our three shows, you know, and I think like Tara, I've had that same experience with a lot of people, you know, who've reached out and said like, even if they're not specifically educated,

A victim of Munchausen by proxy abuse, they recognize a lot of those traits in their parent, that narcissism, that control, the kind of attention-getting behavior, those kind of things. And so I think a lot of people do relate. And then I think there's also the thing that sort of works against trying to get people to understand this, which is that they don't

understand how do doctors fall for it. That's a thing that you hear all the time. And you don't realize like how set up the system is for this abuse, right? Like how vulnerable the system itself is to the abuse, right? Because you spend 15 minutes with your child's pediatrician. They're so reliant on parents to tell them, you know, what's going on with their child. And so much of pediatrics is based off of that.

So you just like, and I find like usually when you can kind of like ground it like that for people, they're like, oh yeah, but it's like the idea of like smart people being fooled is hard to metabolize sometimes. And I think also we overestimate people's decision making based on logic or data or facts. And like the reality is,

We make decisions based on a whole complex set of mostly emotional reasons, and that's all humans. It doesn't matter, like, how logical of a thinker you believe yourself to be. We are also susceptible, and especially in the wrong moment, you know? Like, you were when you got pulled into an MLM. Like, you know, your mom was when she got pulled into that relationship, and, like...

You know, I have been throughout various points in my life. And then if we have, you know, someone who deceives us while we're growing up with them, that sets you up for further things. So it's like, I think it's really good to bring, like, these stories are weird. They are like...

And we can talk about kind of the ethics of this, but obviously there is like a quote like entertainment. I mean, that's the industry we're in, right? Like that's why they make podcasts. Like they are fascinating. They're compelling. But like it's like bringing that empathy of like if you think this couldn't be you, like you are wrong. Yeah. And then, you know, we all also bring this really strong personal connection to the topics. And that can, I think, feel good.

That has, like, pros and cons, right? It can feel like really good personal insight and ability to empathize and to interview other people who've been through the same experience. And it can also feel like baggage. So I wonder, you know, Roberta, like, how do you handle what that talking about this constantly and revisiting what is, you know, a pretty complicated period of your own life? Like, how do you...

handle having this become basically your entire professional life? It's really interesting because I didn't think this would ever happen, but I'm very thankful and grateful for it. I think what I do to not like get burnt out on certain topics is I switch it up a lot.

And I don't do a lot of episodes on LuLaRoe specifically just because it is so triggering. So if I'm in a mood, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, there's a good story. Let's tell a good story. But for the most part, like, all of the stories are so similar and all of the control tactics are so similar that I like to show –

this like continuation of abuse because not everybody's been in an MLM. I mean, they might have gotten instant messages and so they're like fascinated, like what is this? But they don't understand the control, but maybe they've had an abusive relationship or they grew up in like an evangelical church that was really culty or something like that. And so they can see the similarities and I can tell stories about MLMs and then people that are like in different denominations of different churches will like reach out and say, oh my gosh, it's so similar.

And for me being able to branch out of the topic I mainly talk about and have the most information and knowledge and experience in and to talk about these like intersectional topics and this Venn diagram that's like almost like closely resembles a circle is.

to talk about that, one is really great for me because I get a little bit of a break where I'm like, okay, it's not just like MLM story after MLM story. I get to learn new things. I get to even sometimes re-traumatize myself in a way I didn't know existed. And I'm like, oh, well, there's a trigger. There's something to unpack. So I actually kind of enjoy that. I like going, uh-oh, why does this trigger me? Like,

Let's talk about it and let's dig into this. So I really just think like the way that I stay away from being too consumed is by branching out and reaching into those other topics. So I'm actually learning at the same time as opposed to just being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this. I've been through it.

And I talk about like Scientology and things that I'm fascinated by, but I don't really specifically understand all the way. And that to me is like the fun part where I'm like, okay, I'm stepping out of my comfort zone to learn about something else. And even though it's sometimes even heavier than what I was talking about before, because there isn't that personal connection, I'm able to...

be a little, like, less biased and dig into that topic and learn more and talk about heavier and more difficult things because I don't have that personal connection. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. And I think, you know, for me, obviously, like, the topic of my show is incredibly heavy, right? It's a form of child abuse that's so horrific that no one wants to talk about it, which is why I started a podcast on it because I thought someone needed to. And I find that, like,

With our stories, the meat of the story is always going to be really horrific. But I mean, for one thing, we always try and like not spend a lot of time on the gratuitous stuff, right? We don't have to like spend a ton of time. You know, we'll say how bad it was, right? It's important people understand how serious it is, how life-threatening. But you know, we don't want to go into like all the details about every single surgery. And like a lot of the media coverage is that way, right? And I don't, I think that's really problematic. And I think like

At the heart of it, these are like really complicated family stories and family dynamics are something that's like endlessly fascinating to me. And it's like, they're also stories of like, you know, which I know Tara is really your area too, like survival and like these moments of resilience, moments of human connection, people that did try and help, people that did help. There are those really beautiful moments in there. And like, and yeah, and I have this sort of endless curiosity about

about communities, about how we deal with taboos. And so I think like those things, it's like you kind of have to find those like little off ramps. You're not just like, okay, here's another case. And again, like you said with the MLM thing, I mean, the crazy thing about Munchausen cases, they all sound like beat for beat so familiar. And that was so shocking to me when I first got into it with my own story. And I was like, when I first met this group of professionals back in 2020, when I joined this committee and I was like, Oh,

Oh, buckle up. You know, here's the story. And I just was looking at them all like nodding at me going like, yep, yep. And just going, oh, check, check, check. And now that I've looked at all these sort of dozens of stories, I'm like the premature birth, the feeding tube, the mysterious this, the that, the second sibling. It's like they all just are so, it's like there's a playbook. So it's like you couldn't just regurgitate that.

you know, over and over again, or you would exhaust yourself, probably exhaust the listener. And like, it is a challenge, like kind of keep creating unless you're finding those other avenues to go to. And I wonder like Tara, for you in particular, I mean, certainly like,

Roberta and I have our own PTSD from what we've been through and that's sort of a sighting skill. But I mean, for you, this is an intensely traumatic experience that you had this altercation with this person that ended up with you killing him in self-defense. And that's obviously a massively traumatic thing to have been through and all of the lead up to that, right? Yeah.

And this is a story you've told like many times now on like very big stages. Like how did you know when it was the right time for you to tell that story? And like how do you protect yourself as you're telling that story? During the time when I was trying to think of, is this what I want to talk about?

I got approached by the LA Times, and we said no to people before. We said no to Hannah Fryer. We said no to her. We said no to so many people, and we actually had lawyers on everything to sue them if my name came out. And then Christopher Goffard reached out to my mom. Then my mom reached out to me, and...

was very involved in the church during the time. I went like three times a week. I was on my healing journey doing EMDR and I was really at a great spot in my life. So I was like, okay, I've done enough healing where I think it's time to talk about it. And then I prayed on it and I just had like the answer be like, okay,

This is going to help other women. And I was like, okay, I don't know why or how it could, but that's the message that I'm being told right now. And so I've overshared my story, you know. And it's really crazy because the brain compartmentalizes trauma. And so as I started going through it, telling the story, more and more stuff comes out. And even now, where now...

It's really great to tell your story. It's cathartic. But you also have to realize when you're burnt out from it and when it becomes re-triggering all the time. And now it's at the point where it's re-triggering all the time and I'm having certain flashbacks and it doesn't help. And it doesn't help with other situations in my life. And then on top of that, because I had that big trauma and I have done so much healing, I found out that I was actually...

sexually molested as a child. And so that adds like another layer on the trauma. And so like, you know, with me having Survivor Squad that's now on a hiatus, it was really great to have a kinship with those survivors. But also, you know, when you're having on something so similar, sometimes you start to like relate. It's kind of like a therapy session with another survivor. And you, at least for me, I'm thinking, okay, I'm

I'm relating so much to this. I can't share so much of my story. I have to figure out questions to bring it back onto her because it's about her. And so I may share like a little bit. This happened. I felt this way when this happened. Did you feel that way with your situation? So that we can kind of get a genesis of like what the trauma is and how

Yeah, I love that. So it sounds like you've had, and I've certainly had this as well, where sort of like you've

you do get more access, like things will come back to you and you'll just be like kind of, I mean, really in it. And sometimes that happens in the middle of an interview. And I think part of like sort of the skill set of being a podcaster that's talking about something that you relate to so hard is figuring out like, okay, like how do you compartmentalize like in that moment? Because I mean, it's really beautiful to talk to people who've had shared experiences, especially if it's something really specific and strange and like a real, like a big

bad as I think of them. You know, it's like, it's really like to be able to tell that story and not have that person freak out or get really upset or think it's really strange or just be like, yeah, me too. I mean, that's a really beautiful thing, right? But then like, as you said, you as the host of a show want to make sure that you're creating a situation where

you're making space for that person's story, right? And that can be really challenging. And I think like probably I'm sure that all of us as we've been going along this journey of making this stuff is we've gotten better at it. I mean, I really, my first interview, I think I was like, it was so long because I just was like so much of it. We were just like talking back and forth and I was like, no way your sister did that. Like my sister did that. And I mean, it was really great for the two of us, but I was kind of like, okay, like as I've gone forward, I'm like, I've kind of learned to not like

you know, be quite so in it. And it is, it does create really special moments. I mean, there's something to be said for that, but it can be like,

Yeah, you don't want to sort of make every episode about you, right? I think that's like, that can be kind of the challenge. Or just make it so re-triggering for yourself that it wears on you. The first couple episodes of my show, almost really like the first half of the first season was very raw. Because I didn't know what I was doing and I just needed to do it. Like you said, like you just had this feeling, like this will help somebody. Yeah. And...

When the show started to actually get people that were listening and commenting and giving me feedback, that's when I was like, oh, people listen. I should probably edit. I should learn how to do these things. I should...

Maybe get some theme music or do some housekeeping. And yeah, but it has been absolutely a very cathartic healing journey to have those conversations, to be able to relate to people and say, oh my God, yes, like that happened to me too. And not in a way where you're taking their story and saying, oh, let's talk about me now. But in a way that's like, I understand where you're coming from. I've also been there. Let's

go deeper if you're willing. And it's such a beautiful thing. And I think because we're able to relate like that on the shows, and maybe this happens to you guys too, but so many times people are like, okay, I'm going to tell you something I never thought I would ever say publicly. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm saying, I can't believe I'm telling the story right now. And we get these hilarious stories of people just saying, yes, I did this. Oh my God, it feels so good to put it that way. I'm not alone. And it's like, it's the funniest thing

But like so healing at the same time. And I love those little bits of people's journeys where they're finding the comedy in their trauma because that's some of the first steps of like moving past it and getting on the other side and being able to help victims as well. It's being able to see the comedy of errors and where you zigged when you should have zagged. Yeah. You know, and your healing and where your journey has taken you. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. And I think you do have to kind of like look for those moments of brightness because otherwise it just gets really heavy. I was a novelist before I started podcasting. And one of my sort of like core beliefs about life is that one of the best things storytelling in any medium can do is make us feel less alone. And I think that that's the thing that I think all three of us were feeling when we was just like, I feel alone with this. I don't want to be alone with it. I will never like undersell like how much I did this before.

for myself, like, especially in the beginning. Like, I'm not, like, out here, like, oh, I'm in just all altruistic reasons and I did this for the cause. I mean, I did. I think, like, I do think a lot about, you know, trying to help people and making, but I was also, like, I have never spoken to another person who's been through this situation. And that cannot be true that I'm the only person on earth that's ever been through it. And so, like, yeah, that desire to connect, I think, is something that really drives all of us. And, you know,

It's like the kind of, quote, right reason to do it. And, like, you know, Terry, like, you were talking about your process of, like, really checking in with yourself about sharing that story. And, like, I think I know all three of us probably hear from people a lot who—

have been through either something that's in our like, you know, family members or survivors of Munchausen my proxy, you know, I want to share my story. Right. And I think that's a really like very human thing of like, especially if you've been through a situation that's left you feeling disempowered and ashamed, which for various reasons, all three of these

topics do I think they are like there's a heavy shame that people carry around with them and like to be able to take your voice back in that way is really like especially when you've gotten gaslit a lot which is like very heavy in these three situations like when people sort of are talking to you about that or asking you for advice on that because specifically I know Tara you you know run a podcasting course and like

what advice would you give someone who's like, I have this like really, like especially if it's a trauma, right? It's especially something that's traumatic, not just like, hey, I have a weird experience that I want to share, but it doesn't actually like, you know, send me into a death spiral. But like if you have a trauma and you are feeling that, you want to share that with other people and like you want to be a voice for something. Like what advice do you give into someone about like how to check in with themselves and see if they're ready for it?

Book a free 15-minute call with me. You could just go to Linktree and book a free 15-minute call, but because every person, it's a little bit different. I hate to say this, but some stories are more entertainment factor than

per se or more intriguing than others and like hollywood is always looking for a certain type they always have like okay i'm looking for this at the moment i'm looking for that at the moment and you may not be in the moment but you may be hot later so start like planning start journaling writing down everything this is what i tell like every survivor going through a terrible thing journal

That could turn into a book later, you know, and then you own your property if you turn it into a book because they have to buy that from you. It's copyrighted, you know, or if you start your own podcast, just make sure if you partner with anyone, you be careful who you're partnering with. Have a contract. Contracts are everything. But if you just want to start to tell your story yourself, get a mic.

Go on Audacity. Hit record. Yeah. The beautiful thing about podcasting, I think, as opposed to book publishing, right, is like for better or worse, the barrier to entry podcast is zero. But I think that's also why there's such cool stuff happening in podcasting is because it is so accessible. Right. That's good advice. And I think like to the point of like your personal traumatic story may not be on trend right now. I mean, it's fantastic.

funny that you say that, but it's like, yeah, I mean, there is like, I love that you brought up journaling. A lot of folks I talk to, I'm like, is it that, you know, and we do these peer support groups or mental health and support, which is like, do you want to talk to

a podcaster or like a person with a big platform where a bunch of people are going to hear you and weigh in and your relatives that you're talking about are going to be upset and you might get hate mail and it might really set you back. Like, is that the experience that you want to have? Like, are you in that place? You know, and like for some people and especially like the people we have on the show, you know, we do these documentary style seasons. They take

months and months to make most of the people I know that I've featured, I've known for years before they were on the show. Part of what I'm always looking for is like, is this going to be good for this person to like go digging around, right? Because you don't know what you're going to find. We're interviewing their family members. I mean, it's a very, very vulnerable kind of scary process. I think it's really a beautiful process, but it's like,

trying to evaluate whether or not someone is, that's going to be good for them, or is this going to cause a huge setback in your mental health and just re-trigger you? And like, there's a lot of steps before big public platform. Right. I think, and I think like journaling, therapy, peer support, like those kinds of things are like, yeah, maybe what you need to do is tell your story and then share it in five years. And I always like, I talk to a lot of people who,

because they've listened to the show, have just put the pieces together. It's very common for adult survivors of mental health and by proxy not to understand what happened to them until they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s. And I'm sure that's really true of a lot of, like, abuse survivors that you talk to, also those later revelations. And, like...

There was a 10-year space between when these events happened. I mean, obviously, the situation's ongoing. But, like, when these events happened and when I was intensely, like, in my PTSD and mental health stuff over it, there is a 10-year gap between me and telling that story publicly. Yeah. And that was the time I needed. And if I had done it sooner, it would have set me back. Like, there are a lot of steps between that.

you know, I think it's always going to feel raw when you do it at first, no matter what. But yeah, I just feel like there's a lot of like, I just worry about people because it's also like, you know, if your story is on trend, right? Yeah. Like if everyone is looking weirdly for Munchausen, it's like, oh, Gypsy Rose Blanchard, what do you got? You know, it's like, everyone's very like, which is weird because of course I've been at this for sort of years of the book and everything. And then I'm like, everyone's paying attention to it. And like,

I want survivors to, A, make sure with the business side they don't get exploited, right, that they retain all their rights and have good counsel and all that kind of thing. And then also just that, like, their story is being told in a way that's going to be helpful to them and to others and isn't exploitative because there's a lot of exploitative stories.

stuff out there. I mean, yeah, Roberta, what do you? I've had a lot of people, like, they'll reach out, right? They'll find the show, they'll find me on TikTok, or they'll watch Lula Rich, and they'll come and they'll find me, and they'll say, I have a story to tell. Maybe they were terminated, maybe they just left, maybe they were at the tippity-top, or they were, like, super exploited and abused, manipulated. And I can tell, because I've talked to so many people, when people are more in an erratic,

That rage space, that anger phase, which is so, so, so, so, so important. And I tell everybody, please go through it, live it, enjoy it, and then get out of it because it will take you down if you stay too long. But you have to go through the anger phase. You have to go, oh, my God, the whole time? Yeah.

It's that sort of like realization. And it's different for everyone, like Tara said. Sometimes people like process, they go through all their group chats and texts and emails and they process in a month or two and they're like, I'm ready. And sometimes it takes years. And it's really a personal thing. So sometimes people reach out and they're like, I'm ready to tell my story. And I might ask a couple of questions and I batch record. So a lot of times it's like, hey, you just missed my last batch recording session. I'll get

my calendar out within the next month and we can go from there. And sometimes just that extra two or three months is all they needed because they're like, okay, well, Roberta can't talk to me for a couple months. And then, you know, the episode doesn't come out for a couple months. Like, okay, well, this will give me time. You know, maybe I want to do advocacy. I can start

my Instagram account, or I can do all of these things. I can go through my stuff and when they're ready, and I'm telling you, I don't think I've had anybody who has waited, whether it was intentional or just because of time.

that has said, gee, I really regret waiting a little bit longer. Every single person was like, oh my God, it was so helpful. I had time to watch things. I had time to go through things. I had time to talk to some of my old friends that were in this. They're super supportive of me talking. They think they want to talk next. And it's such a personal thing that if you do it too fast and too hard,

You'll burn yourself out and you're going to only see the negative and you're only going to see the drama and you're only going to see like the bad aspects of it and you're never going to want to continue it. And again, it's such a personal journey.

If you are feeling any cognitive dissonance of like, I don't think I'm ready, then you're not ready. When you're at the point when you're like, when can I get on the show? I want a book. I've got a story to tell. Then let's do it. But if you're apprehensive, it's going to come out in your interview. You're going to listen to your interview and you're going to be like, oh, man, I forgot about this and I forgot about that and I should have waited. The open invitation on my show is always open. It's like, come whenever you're ready.

But if you come before you're ready, the episode's just not as good. I think for me and for the survivor and for the audience, we really love a good, well-rounded story. And sometimes just two extra months of sitting in your trauma and asking yourselves those hard questions is perfect. Sometimes that's all you need. Yeah.

Well, I wish we could talk for another hour. But since we are coming up on the end of our time here because of our long journey through LA traffic, Roberta, I know we have a couple of rapid fire questions. So we're going to end with two rapid fire questions for the group. I have my amazing friend Dave asks the best questions. Thanks, Dave. And so I was like, hey, Dave. And he was like, I got some questions for you. So.

I'm the host now. Yes. We're going to turn the baton over to Roberta. Look at me. Roberta says, I'm the host now. I'm the captain now. Yeah, I'm the host now. Let's see. So what's the intersection between MLM,

Munchausen and domestic violence. What do you guys feel that that intersection lies between the three of our topics? I will go ahead and take this first. I think the intersection is that they're all abuse. And my unifying theory of why it's female perpetrators in Munchausen cases, why it's male perpetrators mostly in domestic violence cases, why it's MLM women, like stay-at-home moms, is because people who...

are inclined to abuse power will abuse power where they find it. And so that can be child predators in the priesthood or in a Boy Scout organization. You know, we give women in particular very few avenues to power and control. And motherhood is one. And

MLMs are another that specifically targets disenfranchised women. And so I think it's all abuse of power in different forms. Yeah. Wow. What about you, Tara? That was just like so poignant. I was like, oh my God, they take the abuse. They take the power where they can find it. That was just like, holy shit, of course. Because in an MLM, like I'm a boss babe. I'm the boss babe. I'm the upline. I'm the mega hun.

And I can tell you that you need to buy more lipstick because my car payment is due. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm just having some thoughts around it because of what you said. I think it's really interesting that males are more so the perpetrators in relationships. It's like a 90-something percent or something like that. Don't quote me on it, but I believe it's like high up there. But like the men perpetrate the women and the women want to figure out how to

perpetrate someone else. So I'm like, oh, family and MLMs. So I'm kind of like piecing it together. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those women were in abusive relationships to begin with, too. Absolutely. Yeah. Makes them more vulnerable to something like an M&M, for sure. The patriarchy is alive and well in multi-level marketing. And so like that...

patriarchal abuse that a lot of women, especially from like traditional households, are already living in and is normal to them. When they see it somewhere else, it's the comfort and the chaos. It's one frying pan into another frying pan. Like they don't even realize it's so comfortable. Yeah, because if you don't have control in your own life, then you have to find it somewhere else. Right. Yeah. And then the follow-up question was,

which I think is fantastic, is what education do you think is needed to minimize the victims of these types of controlled spaces?

Lots of education on coercive control because people don't understand it and they think that a woman can just leave. And earlier I did say like, oh, the majority of the people were so happy, but I did get victim blame, you know, and it does happen. But the podcast wouldn't have blown up to what it was if it was majority hate, you know, and victim blaming. But

You can't go and judge someone else. I think we need to remove judgment from other people and try to come from it from understanding because the chaos theory, if you do something bad to someone else or someone does something bad to you and you go and retaliate, you're creating more and more chaos and then it doesn't stop and you have to stop that chaos and it tracks.

Right. And we've talked about like, yeah, these abuse cycles are just that, they're cycles, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think for Munchausen, I mean, first of all, people just accepting it exists would be a start. But I think in terms of like the most, one of the most damaging misconceptions about it is that it is a mental health issue with the mother. 96% of known perpetrators are female. That's why I say mother. Right.

And, yes, there are underlying mental health issues just as they're all with all abusers, right? But we don't say, oh, this person bashed their child in the head because they have abusive bashing child in the head syndrome, right? And I think that there's a really dangerous conflation with factors of disorder imposed on another and medical child abuse where we see it as like a psychiatric issue of the mother. And that is not the right place to focus. It is abuse on a child. It is...

the most deadly form of child abuse, and that is what we need to focus on. These are abusers. Sometimes their partners or other people in their family are contributing to that abuse. So we need to take the focus off it being a mental health issue with the parent because there is also very, very slim odds that it is treatable, even if it is caught, prosecuted, etc. So that, I think, is the biggest step towards seeing this for what it is. It's horrific child abuse. The child needs to be protected first and foremost.

Yeah, it's really interesting that there's so much pushback and victim blaming in all of our spaces. And I think it's important to know what this is and name it, give it a language that we can define.

That's bananas with a B. Yeah. Yeah. And it's protected. Yeah.

And it's legalized. And people don't know that. People don't understand there's lobbying efforts. I was going to say, I'm assuming they have lobbyists upon lobbyists upon lawyers upon lobbyists. Buying senators and absolutely, 100%. And people don't understand that. They just think it's, well, I'm just helping my friend. And the education behind understanding what these systemic abusive systems are, like what they really truly are, so that you can be like, yeah, it's a cute lipstick or the shake tastes fine, but...

it's bankrupting people. It's destroying families. Like this is not just a side hustle. Like there are so many legit side hustles that you don't have to rope people into a cult and a pyramid scheme to make a little bit of money because the 1% is making it off the backs of the 99%. So even when people are like, but I was successful. And I was like, yes, because everyone else wasn't. Because you're explaining people. They don't understand that. And so, yeah, the education of...

naming it, talking about it, sharing statistics, sharing victim stories, making the content that you make, Andrea, and that you make, Tara, and that we're making and we're sharing. And people are going, I had no idea, but I shared this with my friend and I sent this to my mom and we're talking about it at work. And you're opening up that conversation is so important because how else do we get this out there without just people sharing?

It's grassroots, right? Tell somebody. Share this. Let people know that these are bad, bad things.

systemic issues and predatory systems that just chew you up and spit you out. They don't care about you. So just as we wrap up real quick here, let's do a where can people find you? What are you doing? Me, I'm Andrea Dunlop. Best place to find me is on Instagram at Andrea Dunlop. And you can find my show, Nobody Should Believe Me, wherever you listen to podcasts and especially find it on Spotify. Tara.

I'm Tara Newell. You can find me on all platforms, Tara Newell. I also have the podcast, Tara's Batty Club. And then I also have a podcast that's on hiatus right now, The Survivor Squad.

And I'm Roberta Blevins. You can find me on Google, Roberta Blevins. RobertaBlevins.com, LifeAfterMLMPod.com. The podcast is Life After MLM. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts and Spotify. I think it sounds a little bit better over there. And yeah, you can find me on TikTok, BertaLikeWo. If you want to follow, I am definitely available. Amazing. All right. Well, thanks, ladies. Thank you. This was very fun.

Nobody Should Believe Me will be back next week with a little mini season, a season 3.5, if you will. And we are working very hard on season four, and that is coming June 20th. In the meantime, if you want to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You will get all episodes of Nobody Should Believe Me early and ad-free, and we have a ton of

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