Abby & Amanda’s IFS Therapy Sessions with Richard Schwartz: Why We Do What We Don’t Want to Do 47:30

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thrilled to tell you that today we are back with Dr. Dick Schwartz, who is helping us understand ourselves for the first time in a way that we understand, which is that we are a we inside. We've all been trying to figure out our I, and the reason it's been so confusing is that we are not an I. We are a we. We have all different parts inside of ourselves. We contradict ourselves because we contain multitudes. We have all different parts inside of ourselves. We have all different parts inside of ourselves.

And today, Dick Schwartz is back to help actually Sister and Abby in beautiful exercises talk to their parts. And we're all trying to get to this self, this adult in the room that will guide and lead our lives.

And we all have this self. We know we're living in this self or from this self when we are experiencing the eight C's. And the eight C's of true selfness are curiosity, calm, confidence, compassion, creativity, clarity, courage, and connectedness. When we don't feel those eight vibes,

We know we are not bad. We're just living in a part instead of from ourselves. Sister, would you go through one of these things? One of these exercises? I sure would. Would you be willing, Dick, to work with sister? Happy to. Good luck. This is my most favorite episode we've ever recorded. That's because you're over there, not in the hot seat. I mean, I'm happy to go in. Okay, let's do it. Okay.

Do you have a part you want to start with, Amanda? I don't know what part it is. I can tell you a few of my major struggles that I'm having right now, but I haven't yet identified what it is. And I think these might be all related, but I don't know. So I have a part of me that desperately doesn't want to be out of control. And I have a part of me that is

so angry and scared and lonely that I feel like I am in control of things. I have a part of me that is so exhausted and tortured that just wants to stop deciding if everything is okay or good enough. And then I have a part of me that feels like I

need to stay vigilant to make sure things are good enough or everything's going to go to shit. Okay. Can I pause you for a second? Yes. So of all those, the last one is probably the place I'd advise that we start. Okay. Because it's clearly a protector. So you ready? Yes. And can I tell you something, my truthiest truth? Sure. My thing that I'm desperate to figure out is how to be satisfied. Okay.

I really like I'm desperate to do that. Like I am, I am always seeing what is wrong and always reacting to things that I don't see as like good enough. And there's a part of me that hates that so much and desperately wants to be satisfied. Got it. And I can't be satisfied.

And also it's the last thing that my ex-husband ever said to me was you'll never be satisfied. And I am like, is that true? Anyway, that's my truth is that I just want to be satisfied and satisfiable. So we could start with that polarization if you'd like. Okay, that would be great. So between those two, the one who is never satisfied and the one who desperately wants to be, which would you pick to start with?

I know more about the one that's never satisfied. That's the one I know better. So should we start there or you want to start with the other one you don't know as well? Oh, sure. Maybe the one I don't know as well is a great idea. Okay. So you ready? Yes. So focus on that voice or however you experience it and find it in your body or around your body. Where do you find it? Kind of like above my stomach.

And as you notice it there, how do you feel toward it? I feel curious and like I want to hear more. Perfect. So let it know that and just ask what it wants you to know about itself. And don't think of the answer. Just wait and see what comes. I just hear we were always here. Okay. Yeah. And what's it want you to know about that? That it...

has just felt kind of ignored and sidelined. Because it has, right? So if it feels okay, maybe you could apologize to it for doing that. Okay. And just see how it reacts to your apology. I feel like it got like a little bigger. I didn't hear anything, but I feel like it just like puffed up a little bit. Does that feel good or is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. So let it know that

While you have historically ignored it, you're not going to do that now. And you really welcome it and just see if there's more it wants you to know with that. It feels kind of surprised. Like maybe it was resigned to not have that be the case. I don't feel like it's resentful about it, but also that doesn't

Doesn't feel like it's packing its bags. Like maybe doesn't mean very much. Okay. Like, here we go. So you're going to have to earn its trust, right? Right. And are you open to doing that? Yes. And how does it react to hearing that, that you're willing to earn its trust? It's very laid back. Like I don't get the sense that it's holding a grudge about it or anything. Right.

Like it's been counting the cost. It's just feels like it's just like, okay, maybe you were going to come or maybe you weren't, but I was here regardless. Okay. Okay. So ask again, though, now that you have come, is there something it wants you to know or do? To pay attention to it, spend time with it.

And if you did that, what would that be like for Ed or what would you be doing in your life differently or anything like that? I'm not getting a lot there, but weirdly, I'm not seeing other people involved, which is interesting because I usually feel like my dissatisfaction is outer based, but this is

feeling like it would be more just me hanging out with this part. And how does it feel to consider doing that? It feels good and interesting. So let it know that you're very interested in that proposal and maybe ask how often it would want you to do something like this. I feel like it's getting higher, like a little sliver higher, not the whole thing, but just like a little line of it is getting higher. It's saying, okay,

All the time, but just a little bit. Okay. It doesn't need to be like a X amount of time a day or something, but just asking to be able to be there all the time. And how does that sound? That sounds good. So tell it, you're going to work to try and do that for it. Okay. I did. And before we start, ask how it feels toward the part that's so dissatisfied with the outside world.

The first reaction was kind of like laughing at it and not in a mean way, but more in like a, oh, that rascal kind of a way. Okay. But then it did get a little sad. It's probably sad that that part has crowded it out all these years. Yeah. So would it be okay with it if we spent a little time with that one?

It thinks that would be a good idea. Okay. Are you up for that? Yes. So focus on that one and find it in your body or around your body. It feels a lot of places, like my head and my arms and my shoulder kind of thing. Great. And as you notice it, how do you feel toward it? Very familiar, kind of exhausted, but like a knowing feeling.

a comfortable exhaustion kind of a thing yeah okay let's ask both the exhausted parts and the parts that are so comfortable with it to give us more space to just get curious about it and see if they'll separate a little bit okay do you feel open to getting to know it now yes all right so ask it if there's something it wants you to know about why it's never satisfied

And again, don't think. Just wait and see what comes. I'm seeing like an armor thing. And how will we know is what I'm hearing. Like, how will we know? How will we know if we are satisfied? Or like, how will we know if it's good enough or right? Ah, okay. Or if things should be better? Okay. Yeah. And what do you say to it about that? I want to say that.

It also doesn't feel right to always be looking for what's wrong either. Like, I don't know if it's more, if we're netting out better is what I'm wondering of it. Okay. But I think that's another part. So let's see if that one can step out. Who wants to argue with it? Okay. So it's saying that it really can never tell if things are good enough. Ask if that's true.

I'm hearing that it believes that it's the one who can tell if it's good enough. Oh. And so that's why it needs to keep working. Because how will we know if things are as good as they can be if it's not looking for what's wrong? So it doesn't trust you to tell. Oh, I think it thinks it is me. Yeah, it probably does. So let it know you've got some news for it. Okay.

That it's a part of you, but there's a you who's different from it. And see how it reacts to that. Oh, that's interesting. It feels like it got a little smaller. Like, I don't think it knew that. Right. And the good news about that is that this you can make those decisions for it. Because this you's grown up. Yes. So it isn't just that I won't see...

things that need to be seen. It's that this part doesn't need to see all those things for me. That's right. It's had way too much responsibility for running your life. And the sense I get, because it's showing that it's much smaller than it's been puffed up to be, is that it's pretty young itself. You can ask it, how old is it? How old does it think you are? It's a kid. It thinks I'm a kid. Yeah. So good. Let it know that you're not.

Maybe when you were that age, it needed to do this for you, but it doesn't. How's it reacting? It's funny. I saw it like big on my shoulder. It's kind of like one of those dinosaurs and they have like spikes and stuff and it's like getting smaller. I don't think it ever thought that there was another person who could take on the job. That's right. Yeah. This is what in family therapy we used to call a parentified child. It's a parentified inner child. Mm-hmm.

who's had to do this all this time, but is in over her head, you know, it's too young to do this. So it's a relief to know that there's somebody else in there. That's cool. How's that feel? It feels good. It feels really good. I don't know. It's so interesting taking a step back to be like that, the binary of that, like, well, it's either everything's going to go to shit or this part has to keep doing its thing.

When you get a tiny bit of space, you're like, that's insane. Yeah. Because I'm a whole grown ass person. That's true. Sister, did you feel like you're that part, that unsatisfiable part was at the head of the table? Like it didn't know there was another you that could take over at the head of the table? Is that what just happened?

I mean, I wasn't seeing it as a table. I literally saw it as like an armor on my arms. But then when we're talking to it, something came up that was holding up the armor that was sturdier. Yeah. That part of you thought the armor was your skin. But then this other part was like, actually, no, that's just armor. Yeah. Yeah.

Cool. I mean, and I almost didn't want to say that, that I was seeing that because it's so cliche. Yeah. It's like, oh, you read the book and it's armor. But then I also saw the color with the satisfied, the little, the little tube that came up with the, it was blue. Oh. Like your glowing thing. It wasn't glowing, but like, that's weird, right? Is that weird? It's not a bit. No. Yeah.

It's all very real. And so what would then be Amanda's exiled part? Because we're talking about the protector, right? Okay. Well, the first part had been exiled. Right. I didn't get the sense it was a traditional exile, what we were talking about earlier. It was just a part that because of the dominance of this parentified part,

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Correct. Okay. Can you tell us about that? No bad parts and that people are good. How do you come to that conclusion? 40 years of finding that out. Yeah. Just over and over in the early days, I would do a piece of work with these kinds of parts. It's particularly eating disorder parts. And I would find they're not what they seem. They're actually very valuable parts that have been thrust into these roles.

I thought, okay, maybe that's true for those parts, but what about people who have done heinous things? And so I was in the Department of Psychiatry, and so I had access to some of those patients. And I would work with those parts. And even those parts, when we got curious about them in the way we've been doing. And when I got that, I thought, wow, this is quite something that there really aren't any bad ones. And it's been a tough sell, as you can imagine, because...

Our culture and our field says, no, there are lots of bad ones. And in addition, when I discovered self, and it can't be damaged, because I studied attachment theory in graduate school, and that theory says for you to have any of those C-word qualities, you had to have gotten them from a relationship. You had to have gotten them from your parents. If you didn't get them from your parents, you had to get them from your therapist or from your partner.

They aren't inherent in you, in other words. And here I was finding, even in people that had horrible parenting, horrible, torturous parenting, it was the same damn self. How can you square that with traditional psychology? You can't. And it wasn't actually until I was steered, because I wasn't a spiritual person at all, but people said, well, maybe it's like Buddha nature, or maybe it's like Atman and Hinduism, or maybe it's like

Christ consciousness. And it turns out that virtually every spiritual tradition knows about this, whereas almost no other psychologies do. And that I'd stumbled onto a way to access it very quickly. You don't have to meditate 20 years to get to it. How do you get to it quickly with someone? Like for everyone who's listening right now, it is very easy as was just seen with sister and with me, like you can think you are that part, that damaging part. How does a person...

that's listening right now, separate and understand that they actually have that no matter what has happened to them, no matter how lost, that they can get back to that self that has all of those Cs. Yeah, I can describe the steps that I just did with the two of you, to have you focus on how you experience the part, find it in your body. And then this question, how do you feel toward it?

becomes the self-detector. So if you say, I hate it, or I'm very tired of it, or I'm afraid of it, that wouldn't be self. That's not a seaworth. So I have you ask those parts to give us space to just get to know it a little bit and get curious about it. And then as they do that, if they're willing, you kind of immediately access some qualities of self. Now, a lot of times, unlike the two of you,

These other protectors aren't going to open any space. They're not ready. There's a lot of work that has to go in until the point gets to where they're trusting it's safe to let self come out. So, yeah. How do you feel like people starting to understand themselves as parts could benefit our entire culture and world?

That's a big part of my goal now and my guidance. I'm actually trying to bring this to larger systems rather than just in psychotherapy. Because I do believe that if people got this, there are no bad parts, that it's a big mistake to fight with them or try to suppress them or even be afraid of them. And that there is this self in there that, as the parts open space, immediately has compassion for your enemy.

and immediately knows how to relate in a healing way to your animal. That could change a lot of things. So that's my goal now is to find ways to bring it to larger systems. I have seen it change the system of our family, right? Is that what you're going to say? Yeah. I just think that this is like so fascinating to me because I think that I have a personality that is super compassionate and open to change.

lots of different people, lots of different ways of being. And then I do run across a couple of people. It's like literally I can count them on one hand that I'm just like, no. And I wonder if part of my like, no feeling has to do with me just feeling like they're presenting themselves only with their parts and not with the true essence of who they are. But I just think that like,

This approach allows me to really see people as the full complexity of who they are. And it has changed the way that I approach

approach my parenting. I mean, my God, the way that I approach our children has completely shifted. My relationship with my children has so much more to do with me than them. And the parts that come up or the things that I get triggered in or the way that I was taught how to parent

comes into effect more than the way that my kids are behaving. It's just been completely mind-blowing. And understanding them. I mean, we had a situation with one kid where, you know, you're always as a parent trying to figure out, are they on the right track or wrong track? Are they good or bad? Am I nailing this? And recently we had a thing where one of the kids was making a

interesting decision. And that scared the shit out of me. I went to their back. They're not, they're on the back, the wrong track. Right. Yeah. And, and then I started thinking about your work and I, and I actually said to the kid, you know what? I also have a part of myself that does things that the other parts know aren't going to be good for us. And yet I still do them. And that's all I said. And it changed everything.

Everything. They were like, yeah, like this part of me wants to. And just because their part is doing something different than that part of mine does. We didn't need more than that. Yeah. We just needed to understand. Isn't that effing weird that parts of us do things that the other parts know are not? It was a beautiful experience.

understanding where each of us were like, well, no bad parts. Isn't this confusing? And we didn't get further because we didn't have you there. But what I like about what you're saying is even that much can make a big, big difference in your interactions. So what if everybody knew how to do that and could do that with their kids? It's what we call self-led parenting, which

I listened to the episode when you had Dr. Becky on. I'm thrilled that she's into this. Yeah, it's great. Well, it makes me feel like the paradigm shift that could happen if more people implemented this into their lives. I mean, the polarization of you have to be this or that with social media, with politics, like the whole thing. To me, it feels like this could solve at least...

The wanting to put people in these boxes. Categories. In the categories that makes people afraid and makes people fight or riot or whatever. Totally. How would you suggest that people who might not have access to an IFS therapist or our pod squad friends that are listening right now, how do people integrate this or start to understand themselves this way when they don't have therapists to walk them through it? Yeah, we're actually starting to...

put out more for the public directly. Sounds True did a series of meditations called Greater Than the Sum of the Parts, I think it is. And then also this book, No Bad Parts, is written for the public. And a lot of people get a lot out of that. Off our website, we have a program

The online circle program. Yeah. And from that, you get the basics without having to go through the whole training. And it's a pretty, in some ways, pretty simple process. Because I was basically doing the same thing with both of you. And it took like 10 minutes for each of you, or maybe a little more than that. You got to some pretty important stuff. Yeah.

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So we have 10 minutes left. Do you want to do a quick one? Sure. Would you be open for that? Totally. To end with Abby Wambach here? Okay. What do I do? Do you have a part in mind to start with? Can you explain more specifically? I understand the parts idea, but like, what are we trying to get after? Something I want to change? A part of me that I want to get to know more? Yeah. Yeah. If there's a part that gets in your way, some way in your life. I have like a self-esteem issue.

thing. I've always felt a little unlovable. There are parts I built upon this wound that made me one of the best soccer players in the world. And I did a lot of really cool shit with it. But also, I feel like I'm left still at times wondering if

what that is, like what happened. Like when I look out in the world, I feel like everybody knows that like they understand self-love better than I do. First, let me say that that's totally not true. I know I, I, I intellectually know that, but then I look around and I'm like, they for sure love themselves more than I even understand how to. So with that, it's usually two parts you're talking about. One would be a critic who says you're not lovable.

And then another would be an exile that believes it. Right. Do you follow me? Yes. Okay. So typically we would start with a critic. Okay. To try and get permission to go to the exile. Okay. So you ready? I am ready. So find that one in your body or around your body. Got it. It's in my head. How do you feel toward it? I feel so fucking annoyed by it. Of course. I'm just like, fuck you. Like, dude, stop this. The guy. Of course it's a guy.

Right. Sorry. All right. That's enough out of you. Okay. I'm muting myself. So ask the one who says, fuck you to the critic. Yeah. If it's willing to give us a little space to just get to know it better. Okay. Maybe even help it not have to do this. Yeah. I'm letting said, yeah. Yeah. It said fine. Go ahead. Good. So now how do you feel toward the critic?

I feel a little softer. Like my screen is green. Good. Like I'm approaching it with hopefulness of understanding you a little bit better, but like I'm side-eyeing you. I'm like, Hmm. But what did you say? I'm like side-eyeing it. I'm like, Oh, do I want to trust you? All right. But let's, let's get that one out too. Okay. The one who's distrusting. Yeah. Yeah.

Just see if you can open your mind and your heart to it. I know that's a stretch, but just see if you can. Okay. It's a little bit more yellow. Okay, good. Okay. And how are you feeling toward it? I'm feeling curious. Like, tell me more. Like, what have you been doing? Why do you do this? Perfect. So just go ahead and ask it. And again, don't think of the answer. Just see what comes. It's telling me that I had to do this. There's reasons why I had to do this.

So ask it about those reasons. But what's it afraid would happen if it hadn't done it or still doesn't do it? What's it afraid would happen? It's afraid that I would become invisible. And then what would happen if you were invisible or to whom is it afraid you'd be invisible? Yeah, it's afraid that if the critic wasn't present, that my mother would not

love me it's a it's it felt like keenly aware that it needed to be present in my life to survive okay and how do you feel toward it now as you hear that like I just feel so grateful you know so let it know let it know like thank you for surviving yeah that's right and how does it react to your gratitude

Well, it's like, you're welcome. It's been a while. You know, you like it's taken you long enough almost. It's about time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, maybe ask it how old it thinks you are. So I'm asking my critic how old it thinks myself is. Correct. It's saying you're pretty young. And yeah, like three or four. Yeah.

Okay. So let it know when you were that age, it really did need to do this to save your life. Yeah, it really did. Let it know how old you are and how you don't quite need that right now. Yeah, I'm 43. And see how it reacts to that info. Whoa. It is...

Time passes much slower for it than they understood. Time doesn't really pass because it's frozen back there. Right. Yeah, they're amazed. Yeah. Amazed in a good way? Are they happy about this? Well, they feel a little bit like, I didn't need to be here all this time. Well, that's sort of true. Yeah, almost they're like breathing, like a sigh of like, ugh. That's right. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, a lot of time has passed and I've been working. Yes, so they're pretty tired. Yeah, they are tired. So if they really trusted this and they did trust they didn't have to keep doing these jobs, what might they like to do instead? I think that they would like to sit back and just watch and not need to step in

Because I know this like happens, like when I'm questioning myself on whatever decisions I'm making and I'm always conferring with this critic. It's like it's the judge and the jury. Right. And so it's like, I'm just going to sit back. And now that I know you're this 43 year old, I guess I need to ask it to develop some trust with me that, yeah, I'm going to make mistakes. I might not make all the right decisions, but I really want to take a seat at the table.

And how does it react to that request that it trusts you to do that? It feels like it's time. Good. I just see like bags under its eyes, kind of. They're just like, you know, I'm ready to take a seat. That's great. So ask it how often it would like you to come and remind it about this. Help it keep that seat. For sure, like three times a day.

Yeah, at least for a while. Yeah. Until it really hits it. Yeah. Are you up for that? Yeah. I feel like I can check in with it. It's almost like changing forms in a way. It doesn't have the form of a critic. It has like the form of like an elder who's just like, I'm here if you really want to call upon me, but I'm not going to step in and you can check in with me to make sure that that's true if you need that.

So that sounds like the perfect new role for it. It feels like that. It feels like, okay, that's good. Yeah. Good. Cool. You're good at parts work, babe. I feel like we're faking it. Because it's like, that's been 40 freaking years and you just took three minutes. Doesn't it feel like embarrassing by how...

quick it is. Yeah. Surely it can't be that quick. Yeah. I mean, obviously the proof will be in the pudding, right? Like, well, I want to like actually talk to it three times a day. But you actually saw it change form. Yes. I actually saw mine get smaller and the other one get bigger. Yeah. I've been in therapy for 15 years and can't fix anything in my life. That's kind of wild. Yeah. To even be able to identify those things that quickly.

Well, you guys are good at it. I can't do as much as we did with everybody in that short time. But it is, you know, as you can see, it's a very different approach to therapy. Ooh, I like, I already feel like I love myself a little bit more. Oh, yeah. It's cool. That is weird. Because the whole time, my whole life, I've just been like, do you? I don't know. Could you? And now like this elder is like,

Without it in the way, it's like opening up this little path. It's like all of these parts, they just need to know that someone's there to take care of them. Like that there's somebody else in the room. There's an adult in the room now. Yeah. And it's you and it's me and it's you, sister. Yeah. You know, they're a bunch of little kids. It's like.

The book we had to read in high school, Lord of the Flies. Yes. Love that book. And there's no adults around, and they're all dying for somebody to come along and say, I've got this. Yeah. And they think they've got to do it. It's like they're these parentified inner children. Yeah. But they seem so blown up and smart. You know, you identify that this is who you are. And they obscure what I call yourself.

I have a question about the obfuscation of self. In my vision, and I imagine in many's, I thought my part was myself. Correct. And so one of your big goals of IFS is to become self-led,

For someone who's either starting out or on this path or having done it for a long time, is there a way that you have identified to check in to know, oh, in this moment, I am self-led as opposed to part-led? Is there a test? Really good question. So when I, for example, as I approached this podcast, I checked in.

And I just noticed how am I feeling about doing this? And I could find these little scared parts and parts that a little bit dissociate me at times. So as I found them, I just started to do a version of what you're going to do with your part, which is, I know you're a little scared. And the other one, I know you want it to go perfectly, but just trust me. You know, it always goes better if you trust me. And as they relax back,

I'll notice, oh, now my heart's really open. Okay. And now this pressure in my forehead is gone. And I'm really much more in my body. And I've got a lot of curiosity. I'm not so afraid anymore. I'm just eager to get to know you guys and talk this way. So I'm just checking for those C words and how much are they embodied. And it's very practical. You can tell very quickly, am I in self or not, just by checking those kinds of markers.

That's fascinating. It feels like you're giving us a key to the kingdom because all of us have access to asking these questions. It's just whether or not we want to or we choose to. And it doesn't matter if you even know what parts you have or not. It's almost like, what are the feelings that are coming up? And then getting a relationship with those feelings. That's the thing that feels so profound about this work to me.

It's exactly right. All of it. Everything you just said. Wow. You know, Whitman was saying, it's like, do I contradict myself? I contain multitudes. I knew that shit was true. It's biblical too. Like the Romans, what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. It's just, oh man, he's like, no bad part.

Thank you so much. I don't know. I don't know how to say thank you for this work. And, you know, it's really helped me. It's really made a huge difference in my life. And I know so many other people's lives and I just am not only grateful for your work, but I'm just grateful for your presence and how you are. Yeah. You're just very kind and open and lovely and just thanks. And to take the three of us through this,

Generous. Brief sessions was very generous. And I feel super honored and grateful because I feel like a relief happening. I don't know. I'm just grateful for your work. Well, I'm very grateful to get to know each of you. And it's not every podcaster that's willing to be that vulnerable in front of their audience or each other. Oh, we're not airing this. Oh!

We just did it for the free session. Just joking. You're very hard to get booked with. We're just killing this episode. But thank you so much.

If that were true, I'd be still on it. Just joking. I know it's not true. Well, pod squatters, go forth with your parts. Know that inside of yourself, there is a self. You don't have to read any books to find it. You don't have to go to therapy to find it. You don't have to have anything to find it. It's just already there.

Go to the seas. Go to the seas. We love you. There are no bad parts and we will see you next time. Thank you, Dr. Dick Schwartz. This was amazing.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. Also by Allison Schott and Dina Cabana. ♪