Infinities
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Hey, I'm Latif Nasser. I'm Lula Miller. This is Radiolab. And today we're going to feature a young producer on staff, actually our most recent intern, Bowen Wong. Because before he got here, Bowen made a bit of radio that blew us out of the water. I'm gonna... Bowen, you getting cold feet about this whole thing? No, it's... It's called infinities. To start, like someone, you know, opening this podcast, listening, like what would you want someone to hear?

before they hear the piece. - I guess maybe just like a quick, "Lulu, what's up Radio Lab?" And here we have the intern, Bowen. Hi, what's going on with this story? Well, it's a story that I made for a school assignment and somehow it just, it went out into the world and people liked it. And to talk too much about it would kind of spoil it. It's basically about this crazy time where something happened to me while I was at work

And things happened as a result of it. That would be... Wait, that was like perfect. I think we made... I think that was the... That's the money take. And what's... Do we need to do any... I don't know. Just kind of any warnings or state of mind stuff? Yeah, totally. There's definitely a depiction of a panic attack. And there's also discussion of suicidal ideation and...

Yeah. If you're sensitive to that, you don't need to listen. Yeah. Okay. So we're going to play Bowen's piece in the original form, and then Bowen will come back to you, talk to you a bit about it afterwards. Cool? Yeah. Okay. Here we go. Infinities. On Saturday, October 6th, 2018, I was in West Virginia for a work retreat. It was a new job. I'd started at the end of August. The retreat site was a literal swamp along the Potomac, which meant there were mosquitoes everywhere.

I forgot to pack bug spray, and when I went out for a walk, I came back with red splotches all over my neck and upper back.

I sat through meetings and team building exercises trying desperately not to scratch. So that was bad. There were some good parts, though. During free time, one of my co-workers and I canoed across the Potomac and walked along a trail. We trailed lots of trees and we climbed a mountain and looked at the trees, but now we were higher than the trees, which is different from being lower than the trees, and I think I prefer being higher than the trees than being lower than the trees, although both are good, just good in different ways. ♪

When we canoed back, the sun had set. Someone made a campfire and we made s'mores. The guy with prematurely gray hair played songs on his guitar. He was pretty bad at guitar.

I went into one of the cabins and saw some people playing a card game called Egyptian Rat Screw. I'm pretty good at Egyptian Rat Screw. The way it works is that everyone gets an equal number of cards, but you don't look at your cards. You hold them face down and you flip them over one at a time. You go in a circle and each person goes flip, flip, flip. You flip them into a pile at the center of the circle.

If you ever see a pair, like if someone flips over a 10, and the next person flips over a 10, then you slap the pile. And you take all the cards in the pile, and whoever gets all the cards wins. Like I said, I'm pretty good at this. But on this particular game, on this particular night, I was especially good. I was hyper-focused, and my reflexes were hyper-sharp. It was like I had tunnel vision. I saw the cards and nothing else, and I kept slapping and slapping and slapping.

And before I knew it, I had won. I had all the cards, but my heart at this point was racing and I had trouble breathing, so I went outside and walked around in the dark with my arms behind my head, trying to take deep breaths in and out, in and out, and after a while, I calmed down enough and tried to go to bed, which I think is when it all started. Me, lying in bed at around 11 p.m. on Saturday, October 6, 2018, in a literal swamp along the Potomac. My diagnosis at the time was major depressive disorder.

My diagnosis now is bipolar disorder. Bipolar has two phases: depression and mania. Depression is when you feel really bad all the time. Mania is when you feel really good all the time. On that Saturday evening in West Virginia, I became manic. I suddenly felt really good for no reason.

I described it later like I had been wearing sunglasses my whole life but didn't know it. And I finally took them off and it was like I could see the world in color instead of gray. Like I was truly seeing things for the first time. I woke up the next morning and went to a meeting. We were nominating people to be on a leadership committee.

A lot of the employees, including me, felt like our supervisors were treating us like kindergartners and micromanaging our work lives. They acted like they were our friends until we crossed an invisible line and they very suddenly weren't. They made us attend weekly seminars where we had to take personality tests and listen to lectures about how to listen, learn, love,

and quote-unquote "network" with people we had no interest in quote-unquote "networking" with. And one time during a break, they gave us fidget spinners and silly putty to play with, 'cause apparently we needed constant stimulation to stay awake during these boring, pointless fucking seminars. So we were pissed, in other words. And there was more stuff we were pissed about, but those seminars were emblematic of everything wrong with the organization. We complained enough that they finally let us organize this committee that would give us more power, at least theoretically.

We sat in a circle, me and my coworkers and our supervisors, and they handed out packets with different committee positions, such as: Event Planning, Recruitment, Programming, Social Media. And I realized very quickly that this wasn't real. It was just management trying to placate us with fake student government bullshit. They'd give us the "responsibility" of managing their Instagram or whatever, which was just more work that we wouldn't get paid for. They weren't gonna give us real power or a real say in the way things were run.

And why would they? So when they finished their spiel, I said something to the effect of: "How much leverage will we actually have over you?" And they said something to the effect of: "As much as you want. There are 42 of you and 6 of us. This is your opportunity to manage Upward." They talked for a bit longer and left the room to let us discuss, which is when it dawned on me that we could take this bullshit committee and turn it into something useful.

Something that actually empowered us. Because like they said, there were seven times more of us than there were of them. And if we used that to our advantage, we could do whatever the fuck we wanted. So when there was a gap in the conversation, I stood up and said something to the effect of, I like our supervisors. I like them as a team.

But they are not our friends. They are our fucking bosses. And don't you ever forget it. They are one half of a hierarchy that pushes downward on us. Our generation needs to be angered. 4 degrees Celsius warming by 2100. We are fucked. They fucked us from the beginning. How much time did they give us for this meeting? Half an hour? They gave us a tiny little scrap of nothing. Which we can turn into a feast.

I had a panic attack in front of everyone. I felt pretty good.

My coworkers told my supervisors about the panic attack. In the coming weeks, they took increasingly severe measures in response to my increasingly severe mental illness. They made me attend mandatory coaching meetings that would help me improve and grow in self-management and emotional management. They gave me a card for a local suicide hotline and made me call the number.

They mandated that I see a therapist. They gave me a therapy confirmation sheet that said it is the organization's desire that Bowen Wong takes care of his mental health needs. Seeing a therapist weekly is part of that plan. Bowen Wong is asked to have his therapist sign this sheet after the completion of each session.

A photo of the sheet should be emailed to his supervisor within 24 hours of the session. A hard copy of the sheet should be given to his supervisor after four sessions. During an intake appointment at a mental health center, I showed the form to the physician assistant student who first saw me, who showed it to the PA, who showed it to the therapist, who finally signed it. They all had the same reaction.

They were confused, concerned, and a bit disturbed, because what kind of crazy person would be forced to attend therapy by their employer?

In spite of all this, I got elected to the leadership committee. My position was accountability, which was made up, and which I assumed meant keeping our supervisors accountable to us. I had the suspicion that while we were being underpaid, management was keeping the organization's increasing profits to themselves. So I started pestering them for financial documents, which did not help things. But after a while, they gave me a PDF of an IRS filing. I think that was meant to placate me.

But instead, I started doing some research.

From 2012 to 2016, the number of workers increased from 12 to 35. Revenue increased from $244,503 to $678,871, which works out to be a 178% total increase or an average annual growth rate of 31.5%. And in that same timeframe, the CEO's compensation increased from $53,707 to $85,092, which is a 58.4% total increase with an average annual growth rate of 12.1%. But meanwhile,

what we got paid from 2012 to 2016 stayed virtually flat, with a total increase of just 9%, or an average annual growth rate of 3%, which basically means that over the course of four years, the organization made more money, and the CEO made more money, because he was a member of the board that determined how much money he made. So he basically gave himself more money, but we did more work, but made the same amount of money, and also...

The weirdest part was that on every IRS filing, I found a difference between the CEO's stated income and his unstated income that you could calculate by adding up different figures. Like in 2016, it seemed like he was making $9,000 more than what his stated income actually said.

This happened every year, and over the course of four years, it added up to over $23,000 of unexplained, unaccounted-for income.

Our office was next to an accounting firm, and I managed to talk to one of the CPAs there. I showed him the forms and figures and asked him what he made of it, and he didn't explicitly say the word embezzlement, but when I asked if he could sign the form and note the time and date, he said he didn't feel comfortable doing so. So, I went to another accounting firm and talked to the organization's auditor herself.

She was the one who prepared the IRS filings every year. And she told me that the stated income was for the calendar year, starting on January 1st, while the unstated income was for the fiscal year, starting on August 1st. And I was like, great, that solves that. And she was like, great, I'll just call your supervisor and let them know you were here asking about the CEO's income. And I was like, great, see you later. ♪

On October 31st, 2018, I had a meeting with the CEO and a board member who happened to be a lawyer. August 31st, 2018, 1:14 PM. I don't know why I said August.

I was probably still thinking about the fiscal year thing. As has been communicated, there's been multiple instances that have occurred. That's the CEO. But when I would just add from my perspective... That's the board member who's also a lawyer. I'm going to cut out specific names and details and anything I think is sensitive or relevant. And I think those have been laid out in terms of what those instances are with you. If they haven't, we can provide like a written list of all the instances. I'll go back to that, thank you. Um...

that really kind of undermine the ability to function as a member of the community. So we want to seek a resolution and develop a path forward as a collective unit around this. So I think, you know, to get the seriousness of this, we want to really establish lines of communication and build trust. So one example, I guess, of trust not being built is when we sent an email to...

and then you apologetically said you wanted to do something or were apologetic in terms of reaching out and then later on that day or at least sometime on a Monday afternoon went and met with our auditors Would you like me to respond? Sure I would prefer not to respond Okay You would prefer not to explain? Yes please Okay

Do you understand where we're coming from with that, or do you disagree? I absolutely understand. I'm trying to imagine the situation from your perspective. Sure. I absolutely understand. And we're doing our best to give you the information that you're asking for and be transparent, as we've discussed. That's why we're here today. But, you know, we can't have you going off and showing up at our auditors. That's particularly in light of the fact that we're giving you the information you're requesting. Yeah. I apologize. And I guess the fundamental question is...

Is this something we can come to an agreement on, or do you think you need to continue to do what you've been doing and reaching out to board members, staff members, third parties individually? Yeah. And I appreciate your qualification earlier that this isn't coming from a malicious place. We don't view it that way, and I hope you don't view where we're coming from in a malicious way at all. We just want to get on the same page again. Is that something you think is possible? Absolutely.

Would you prefer to use the word viable or vibrant?

Member of the community. I think just as a member of the community. So basically these are the things. We want you to continue attending weekly seminar and be a part of the program activities. Do you have... This is...

Could you email me a copy of this as well? I'm going to take notes on it. Thank you so much. To review, understand, and be bound by the discipline, policy, and procedures. Meet weekly with a professional counselor for a minimum of four weeks. I think that's already been shared. The next appointment needs to occur before November 9th. It's tomorrow at 3 p.m. Okay.

Sign a release of information form allowing your counselor to communicate the following information: the dates of scheduled appointments, your attendance at those meetings, recommended treatment and level of care, and attempts made by Bowen to schedule appointments. So we need you to basically share with us a document that allows someone to inform us that these things actually have been happening.

And then take ownership of your self-management, self-care, professional growth, and mental well-being and maintain a positive attitude during the process. Do you have any questions about the document? I do. Can I get some water? On October 13th, 2018, I scheduled an appointment with their behavioral unit for therapy.

This is something I did of my own volition and something I deeply want to do. And this is something that I will continue to do of my own volition. I would actually prefer if... I would prefer if information with my therapist

I suppose the simplest way to put it is that I would like you to trust me that I want me to get better and that I would like you to trust me that I know what is best for me in terms of my mental health. I feel like I am qualified to make this because I have 23 years of experience of being me and you have known me for two months. So I feel like I should be the one leading my own mental self-care.

Right, and we agree that's why you're setting up meetings to meet with someone. We're just asking basically that those, that information be provided that those meetings are taking place. I feel incredibly uncomfortable with that. When I had my first meeting, I had to, it was an intake. I had to speak to three different medical professionals, and I don't have it with me now, and present, actually I do, and present this document.

I had to explain this three times and I found it embarrassing and demeaning. And I found that the therapists or the mental... I only spoke to one therapist but the three medical professionals who spoke to me, when they immediately saw this, they saw me in a different light. As if though I was quote-unquote crazy, as if though I was quote-unquote unstable. And I would feel like this actually interferes with the level of care, this level of management.

And I would very much like to prefer to keep all of my mental health self-care confidential. Well, Bowen, we fully agree with keeping your... I would very... I think you know... Your care confidential, sure. What we're looking at is accountability on attendance and compliance with this agreement. We're not looking to see your medical records. We have no interest in that. We respect patient privacy. Okay.

I understand what you're saying, but I think what we have here is just two sides that don't agree. And I don't think I can sign this contract right now. And what would occur if I do not sign this contract right now? I think we're not going to have any choice but to go our separate ways. Okay. Have a wonderful life. My parents took me home the next day.

On November 2nd, 2018, starting at 10:12 p.m., I sent 81 Facebook messages to my now former coworker who in retrospect I was in love with. I wrote, "One of my favorite things from Hard-Boiled Wonderland and The End of the World is the encyclopedia wand. Maybe you remember. How do you encode all the information contained in an encyclopedia onto a toothpick?"

The answer is that you convert every alphanumeric symbol into a two-digit number. a = 0,0 b = 0,1 c = 0,2, etc. So you turn the entire encyclopedia into a very, very, very long number. And at the very beginning of that very long number, you put a decimal point. So that now, the number is between 0 and 1. 0 equals the bottom of the toothpick.

1 equals the top of the toothpick. And you make an infinitely precise, infinitely thin mark at that exact position between 0 and 1. I fucking love- What the fuck do you think you're achieving right now? Why would you think this is in any way appropriate? What is going on where you think it's a good idea to send me a million messages at 11pm? I don't know. I'm completely at peace with everything. I could die right now. But obviously, I want to live. Because living is fun. Yeah.

I'd say life is more fun than death. And nothing can hurt me, I guess. No. No, that's not true. I'm actually feeling physical sensations right now. Sweaty palms, palpitations. I guess I don't mind getting hurt. Like I said, I don't mind dying. You're the only person I can be completely honest to.

So anyway, the encyclopedia wand. The point being, infinity goes outward and inward. You zoom in and in and in, and you never stop zooming in. Replace in with out, same thing. That's why I love Google Earth so much. Although at some point you can't zoom in or out- I'm blocking you. See a therapist for fuck's sake, and stop taking the shit out on people who are just trying to be your friend. Okay.

The next day, my now former supervisor and the CEO called my parents on their landline. They said that I made passive suicide comments to a now former coworker, that I was a danger to myself and others, and that I should be evaluated immediately, preferably no hospital. My parents didn't take me to a hospital. Instead, they took me to a psychiatrist who prescribed me antipsychotics, which finally ended the mania.

I felt stable for about two months, and during that time, I tried to write a chronological account of the events that led to me being fired.

I set a rule for myself that the account would be purely objective. No interpretation, no reflection, just a cold, rational account of the events as they occurred. As if I was an alien anthropologist studying a human specimen. I had a hard drive full of spreadsheets and PDFs and audio and video recordings. I would concretely lay out what happened and when and where. But not why. I never ask why.

On Christmas, I developed a condition called akathisia. It's a side effect of some antipsychotics, and basically, I couldn't sit still. I would sit for 15 seconds or so, and then I physically couldn't sit for any longer. It didn't feel psychological. I couldn't think my way out of it. So I would stand, but I couldn't stand standing still. So I paced, and I kept pacing and pacing, and eventually, I resigned myself to the fact that I would just pace for the rest of my life.

I couldn't sleep, obviously, so I took the stairs down to the basement and back up to my room, and I did it again and again and again. It felt like I'd never sleep again, but I kept thinking that hopefully, maybe in 48 or 72 hours, I'd finally collapse from exhaustion and stop being conscious of the fact that I exist.

The obvious solution is to not exist. This is annoying, because not existing is difficult when you do, and I'm generally more inclined towards existence. But if existence meant pacing for the rest of my life, then the scales started to tip towards the other direction. But there's a third way.

a psych ward, where the door to my room couldn't lock, and I couldn't wear shoes with laces, and the nurses checked on me every 15 minutes, and there's nothing to do but pace the halls. If you think about it, a second is a very long time, because the distance between zero and one is infinite.

And there are 60 infinities in a minute, and 3,600 infinities in an hour, and 57,600 infinities between 8pm on New Year's Eve, when I started making endless laps around the psych ward, and 12pm on New Year's Day, when the psychiatrist finally saw me and gave me something that made me forget that I exist.

When we return, we will talk to Bowen about his piece, about how he made it, and about how he's doing today. Stay with us. ♪

WNYC Studios is supported by Zuckerman Spader. Through nearly five decades of taking on high-stakes legal matters, Zuckerman Spader is recognized nationally as a premier litigation and investigations firm. Their lawyers routinely represent individuals, organizations, and law firms in business disputes, government, and internal investigations and at trial. When the lawyer you choose matters most. Online at Zuckerman.com.

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I'm Maria Konnikova. And I'm Nate Silver. And our new podcast, Risky Business, is a show about making better decisions. We're both journalists whom we light as poker players, and that's the lens we're going to use to approach this entire show. We're going to be discussing everything from high-stakes poker to personal questions. Like whether I should call a plumber or fix my shower myself. And of course, we'll be talking about the election, too. Listen to Risky Business wherever you get your podcasts.

And we're back. We just played Bowen's piece, Infinities, and we figured we had so many questions, we should sit down and talk to him about it. Well, first of all, the piece is so good. It's really good. I feel like my first time listening was just like duct tape. I was just

just stuck to it and it was just walking this line between so intense and dealing frankly with freaking despair and confusion. It's unsettling. Yeah. Genuinely felt like we were in your head. Not an easy thing to do. Yeah. Appreciate it. So, okay, so this all, I'm just trying to piece up the timeline. Sorry. You got

fired, you got help, then you decided to make the story about it? Yeah. So what happened was on October 31st of 2018, Halloween, that's why it's so easy for me to remember, I was fired. From then until the end of December, I was at home and steadily declining. And then I was in the psych ward. Early January of 2019, I was discharged. I came out of the hospital and

I was very depressed for a long time. I was living at home. I was unemployed except for a brief stretch of time where my doctor was like, oh, why don't you get a job at a hibachi restaurant? I was like, okay. And then I worked there for three days and it was terrible. But anyway, I was horribly depressed. I could not function. I somehow got accepted to the University of Pittsburgh's MFA program in creative writing. Took a class about podcasts where I had to submit stuff.

like over a year later from that whole experience, I guess it was finally that I realized like, oh yeah, I have this audio recording of me being fired. That is like pretty dramatic and interesting. Like if I were to just listen to that and I didn't know who I was, I would be like, wow, this is tense. And how did that even, how did that even work? Like, were you secretly recording it? Were you openly recording it? Did like, I just,

Yeah, that was the question I had. Yeah, I should make this very clear. That recording where I get fired is not secret. Like, I ask them for permission and I put the phone on the table. Why I was recording, it was some sort of instinct I had of like, I want to have as much documentation of this as possible. But then it was like, okay, well...

I need to contextualize that tape. Like what exactly led to that? And so basically the story was like, this is what happened. Here's the tape. And then here's what happened after it. And like, I told myself, like I say in the piece, I'm going to tell this story absolutely objectively. I'm going to narrate myself as if I were a character and I submitted it for class. People gave me feedback.

I originally ended with a quote from David Foster Wallace, and they were like, eh, don't do that. I was like, okay, you're right. Yeah, eventually I finished that, and I don't know, submitted it. When you first revisited that tape, what did you think about yourself? Did you cringe? Did you laugh? Did you have to turn it off at any point? Did you, yeah, I almost want to watch you listening to that for the first time. I don't know what that says about me, but yeah.

I don't cringe or laugh. I think mostly I just was in like a full body tension. And I think I was brought back to that point. What I remember of that moment is that I felt like I had tunnel vision. I was like 110% concentrated on this interaction that I was having with these two powerful people. And I was...

I don't know. Actually, something that does make me laugh is when I ask the CEO, do you mean... Vibrant or viable? Yeah. That was such a vivid moment for me, too. Yeah.

I don't know. That was kind of funny to me. I wasn't trying to be funny. Excavate that moment a little bit. I think because it was all this corporate BS and they were talking in such like an impersonal corporate voice. And that seemed like just such a

prime example of that. And I wasn't trying to be like mean in any way. It was a genuine question for me. But that moment was so vivid to me because there are moments in this piece where like I just wanted to give you a hug. Like you felt like this...

super fragile person who was trying to do righteous things. Like you were, you were standing up for the little guy. You were like, you were like a, like a, like this flawed hero. Like I was rooting for you. And, and then there were other moments where I was like,

Bowen, dude, just what are you doing? Like, who cares about this word? Like you were it felt like you were ratcheting up tension for no reason. And I was turning on you as a listener. But I felt like that was the real strength of the piece is like I got this sort of unvarnished picture of you because you like kept a lot of those moments in there. Were there moments where you judged yourself and you're like, oh, this makes me look like

but I'm going to keep it in anyway? Or is it that I'm just super, like I'm judging you from the outside? I mean, yeah, totally. I think the moment when I basically harass my former coworker and send her bajillion messages, really, I think, hurting myself

my former coworker. Um, yeah, no, that is, it's funny that you mentioned that like moments where you turn on me because, uh, I think some professor at Pitt who listened to the piece, his feedback was like, wow, like he's not afraid to make the narrator unlikable. And I guess whether that was my intention or not, I think my intention, like you said, was just to be

unvarnished and truthful. And as a result, that meant me kind of being a jerk for no reason. Because I told my sister about this whole story and she was like, yeah, you know, they were kind of in the right to fire you, you know? And quite frankly, yes, she's right. They were right to fire me. I don't know what else they could have done, you know? I think they really tried to accommodate me. They sounded like they were trying hard not to fire you. Yeah. I have...

I want, yeah, like I, well, no, I think it's interesting because just to zoom in on the viable vibrant moment, I don't know if I like turned there. I think I actually, what happened for me there was just wondering about these soft words we use in work settings that can, you know, obscure a harsh decision or a harsh policy or create a sense of togetherness when there's actually nothing.

a hierarchy in place and

Bowen is calling that out, but also increasingly making questionable choices about how to be in community with people. And I think it just gets at that moment, gets at what I love so much about this whole piece, which is that I am just constantly questioning that line. You know, like who is, what's the pathology here? Is it Bowen's behavior or is it the expectations? But you do agree that like, and I think especially with the coworker moment, like it's like whatever the line is at that moment,

clearly crossed the line, right? Oh, with the messages, yeah. Right, right. But with that moment, the vibrant viable, it was ambiguous for me there. Yeah. No, I think I really was unnecessarily escalating this situation. Yeah. And quite frankly, looking back on it over four years from that, four years from when it happened, like, I don't know, they tried the best they could. Yeah.

No, but it's such a hard position to be in with someone, I mean, even more so if it's yourself, but like with someone who's in the kind of throes of mental illness because it can be so hard to engage even if you know that that's what's happening. Like it just felt like you somehow in showing those moments of yourself, like that felt like so much realer of a portrait of yourself

your brain at this moment. But that's what this illness... I don't know. It's about the illness. I don't know. Or maybe you have another gloss on that. No, I think you're absolutely right. It's very hard to deal with someone who is in the throes of mental illness, or in my case, in the throes of a manic episode. And seeing the way my parents were and how they wanted to help me, but they couldn't. I don't know. The only thing you can...

In my experience, the only thing that anyone could do for me was for me to call the Delaware County Mental Health Line or whatever and basically talk to this person about, like, I

I want to sleep and I can't. And I feel like the only viable option is for me to die. And she was like, oh, you should probably go to a hospital. And I was like, oh, okay. And at the hospital, they can't really do anything. They can't give you anything. Oh, I guess they gave me Ativan. But the only thing they can do in the hospital is monitor you and make sure that you don't die. It's not really about care, I don't think. It's just about like putting you in a space where you cannot hurt yourself or others. What they could do for me medically was quite limited.

But yeah, I don't know. That was kind of the only thing anyone could have done for me at that point. Is there anything that Bowen of now, you think, is there any thought you could have implanted into Bowen of that New Year's Eve before things kind of dissipated with a drug? Is there any thought that could have made feeling trapped inside a head feel any better? Or is that just...

you were off the charts and you needed help. If there was any, if I could talk to that self, I would be like, it's going to be okay. Your life is going to be unbelievably, unimaginably better than it is right now. And also you're going to make a podcast about this. So it's going to, you're really getting some good content right now. But yeah,

I just tell that self that like, listen, it's going to be okay. But nothing I think would have helped me at the time. It almost feels like there should be a disclaimer at the end here and be like,

Bowen's a great guy. And this is like, I almost want the world to know you now as we know you. You're like the sweetest, most kind, helpful employee, eager to learn. It's a totally different portrait of you. And I feel like, I don't know how, but I want to like...

I want to staple to the end of this, like the, the portrait of Bowen that I know and have worked with. And like, it's a totally different person than the person they're going to hear about in the piece. No. Yeah. Thank you for stuff. And I guess, I don't know. I guess my first thought is that like, you know, that, that was me, that was me in the throes of mental illness and not knowing what the hell was going on. But you know, that was me. Um,

I don't know. But also like, yeah, and that you got you to present tense you and that you is still in you. And I don't know, I like, I honor that, that you with those questions about infinity and that, that fear and that paranoia, like that, that you is probably still filtering through and making you who you are. I don't know. I guess maybe something to note is that

that Bowen in the piece is a character. That Bowen is a piece is, this is why in workshop, instead of saying in our feedback, like, oh, you did this. We say like, oh, the narrator did this or the character did this. That's right. So there is number one, that level of narrativization and number two, to your point, Lulu, since I came to Pittsburgh, I've been, you know, seeing a wonderful therapist and, and,

When I described this whole experience to him, he was like, well, you know, it seems like there was this part that was repressed for whatever reason. And all of a sudden it exploded and I didn't know what to do with it. And the part that is repressed me is still me.

And I think still to this day, I'm trying to figure out what to do with the me that very suddenly emerged on that stupid day while I was playing Egyptian Rats Crew. That's the closest I can get to a cause. I was playing Egyptian Rats Crew too intensely. I don't know. And you were so good at it. I was so good at it. I'm...

I gotta tell you, I'm also very good at that game. You gotta play. And I would like to play with you. All right, come back to Pittsburgh. Although not if it triggers something. Have you played it since? Have you played it since? Yeah, yeah. And every time I play, I win. So, all right, we'll have to. Well, I can't wait to hear the piece you make about our work culture. Yeah, it's wonderful. I really enjoy it, yeah. Um...

And you'd be like, Lulu, your salary. Those expenses on science books certainly line up neatly with the manicures. This piece by Bowen Wong, Infinities, won the Best New Artist Award at the 2020 Third Coast International Audio Festival. It was broadcast in 2021 on KCRW's Bodies. Special thanks to Grace Gilbert for voice acting and episode art and to professors Aaron Anderson and Maggie Jones for editorial support.

And thanks to Bowen for sharing it with us.

Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts. Susie Lechtenberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nenasambandam, Matt Kilty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson,

Sarah Kari, Anna Raskwit-Paz, Sarah Sandbach, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Bowen Wong. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton.

Hi, my name is Michael Smith. I'm calling from Pennington, New Jersey. Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, the Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab is provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.