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Latif, I want to play you something very special. Okay. It's a piece of audio. It comes from another podcast. And I should say right here that this one is probably not for kids. Okay. Okay. So this thing I want to play for you. I listened to it last weekend. No, not even last. I listened to it a few days ago and it was like, whoa.
I was in Los Angeles driving in my rental car through these dark and unfamiliar streets. And I got so sucked into the conversation that when I got to where I was going, I had to just sit there in the dark seeing where it went. Wow. Because it was so just... Wait, don't build it up too much. I feel like I want to hear it. But yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I have that problem. Okay. Okay.
So the podcast is called The 11th and the episode is called I'm Here to Pep You Up. We had reached out to a bunch of comedians and writers and asked them, do you maybe have a pep talk for us? They wanted to give a little gift in these dark months. Everything feels twice as hard. They just wanted to pep people up. Could you just try to help us feel a little better? And they got all kinds of submissions. Hey, Leslie, you're doing great, girl. Little essays. So what? You can't swim. You got this. You know who you are. So you did it again. Voices.
Voicemails. I kind of hate to jump in, but this feels really similar to what we did in the last couple episodes. We're looking back on a terrible year, trying to tell stories to distract people from it or something. It's like if Radiolab was my friend, I would be like, are you OK? Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, A, no, we might not be okay, honestly. But B, what they get up to in the second half of the show is something totally different. It is not a distraction at all. It's not even really a pep talk. Okay. They point us toward this raw conversation about a thing that
you cannot pep talk someone out of. And it ends up somewhere totally unexpected. So that's what we're going to play. Okay. Let me hear it. What is it? So yeah, it features these three guys, two of them, Adam Juskovic and Eric Janakis have a podcast called The Relentless Picnic. And the third person is their friend, Matt, who is called into the podcast as he's going through this really hard thing. And that's all I'm going to say.
Ties? Yes, that's me. What's up, man? What's up, man? So who's getting married? Yeah. My friend I grew up with, his name is Felipe, and they met in high school, and they're getting married in Kennebunkport. Oh, wow. Bush country. Yeah, we're off the beaten path a bit. We're, I think, like, I don't know, five miles from town or something. Right. So is it weird to be going to a wedding? I imagine that's, like, not a dream thing right now.
Yeah. I think when I actually get there, it'll be tough, but it's my friend. So I want him to be happy. And I already talked to him before. Yeah. You know, just saying, you know, I'm not going to like make a fucking scene or something, you know, but it was just like, you know, if it's too much for you to handle, that's what everyone's been saying, you know, because I'm pretty independent or I don't like asking for help. So this like this whole process has been really fucked up because everyone is, you
babysitting me basically or trying to and you know like so he just reached out and just said you know if you have to leave or if he you know too much don't even worry about it you know everyone's being great because you know right they want to give you like space to do what you need to do but it can also be a little alienating I imagine
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Like, you know, he is thinking about me, but at the same time, it's also his happiest day on earth. So, like, I do all the scene-making myself when I'm alone, so don't worry about it. Yeah, well, I was kind of going to ask if there was, like, a kind of, like, thing you were leaning on more since or music or whatever. You know, I'm not... I've been, you know, reading a lot. My friends got me a... They paid, like...
some dude on Amazon, like $300 over asking price for a Nintendo switch. So I was playing Zelda for like a hundred hours and, um, that's been helpful. Been trying to write stuff down. Um, I remember about her and, uh, thank God for technology. Um, as horrible as it's made us that I can just take out my phone and, you know, write something down. Like,
What if you imagine like someone is going to be listening to this, you don't need to share anything you don't want to share. That's right. And you don't got to tell the whole story. But is there any part of what would you sort of say about if someone said, what is this guy dealing with? What's happened? Like, is there a version of this that you would want to sort of lead off with?
You know, easy question. You know, I mean, it's a, well, I mean, it's a pretty loaded question. About as hard a thing as seeking a risk. No, yeah, no, it's hard to like, you know, condense it. I found the love of my life. Everything I talk about this sounds cliche, but, you know, she was, you know, I'd never seen her happier in my life. And, you know, we...
we would just wanted to grow old and be boring together. I mean, we just bought our first house in November on her birthday and, uh,
You know, I mean, she had a disease. And when we brought Erica up to Boston, she had her last seizure of her life until this last one, of course. But we had an appointment at MGH, Mass General Hospital, and they figured it out immediately. Well, they thought they did, of course, but there were no warning signs whatsoever. And then, you know, she never had another seizure or tremor or anything like that. For three years? For three years to the day, March 26th.
That's incredible. She had her bridal shower and I was at a friend's bachelor party and all her family and friends were there and
You know, she was, and then she died that day. But the thing I want people to remember, too, like, because she was shy and everything, she opened up into this completely confident person that I don't even recognize when I first met her. And I think you'd feel the same, Adam. Yeah, you made her so happy, and she made you so happy that who you guys were at
after you got engaged and as you were planning this wedding, you were like these shining, fully embodied versions of these ghosts that I'd met years earlier. You know what I mean? Right. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I wasn't a fucking ray of sunshine either. So, I mean, it's just it's so cliche, but like we kind of did just need each other at all times. And maybe that's selfish, but it's kind of selfless, too.
I'm a real sap, so when I asked her to marry me, I had planned it for months and had like 50 people come to surprise us, and her mom came up. And you saw at the funeral, too, how many people came and how just dedicated everyone was. It was stunning. Death had struck, and it made the funeral so profoundly painful in this way that no other funeral I had ever been to. Yeah.
There was no looking back. It was like looking forward at this thing that didn't get to happen or something. It was, everyone was filled with anger. I mean, that's, that's what I'm most angry about. Like people keep telling me to, you know,
you know, take care of yourself. She'd want you to be happy. And, you know, maybe someday I'll get there. But right now I'm just so angry that everything I hate to experience, every laugh I get to see, like every new episode of deep that comes out, she doesn't get to see it. You know what I mean? It's just like, it's one of those things that it's just so unfair. And even that may not be the right term, but, uh, you know, anyone dealing with death, it's so weird. It's like, it's sort of like radiation. It's just, it kind of just lingers.
Like, you know, people will just keep sending me letters that I haven't talked to forever and care packages. And you even said your mom was worried about it. It's just like, you know, it's just, I'm wondering what effect all those people reaching out to you has, like, does any of it change the shape of what you're feeling in any way?
Um, it's extremely touching and, you know, some people do say the wrong things, but they come from a good place. Um, and I keep trying to remind myself of that, but no, I mean, it'd be, the outpouring has been so crazy because, um,
it's just so fucked the, uh, you know, I have a pile of letters on my countertop that are from her bridal shower, just wanting us to grow old together, wishing us well and stuff. And then there's the next pile from the same people, you know, saying, I'm so sorry. So it's, it's extremely surreal. It feels like I'm in a dream or something. And, uh, I mean, next weekend, our, our wedding and, uh,
I've just, I've beyond, beyond crying now. I mean, it happens. Yeah. It's just something will happen and you'll just hear something or see something. And, you know, I don't know. I live near like a baseball field and these kids come over to play every day with their families and shit. And it's just so weird to just know that that's never, you know, now we can't do that and stuff. It's just, you know, I'm still living in the house and I have to sell it next week. And, you know, I just seeing her stuff. I mean, sometimes I just run outside and,
And sometimes I just fall on my friends or something. You know, it's just like, it's, it's very strange not being in control of yourself when that happens. Something you said just really struck me as true. Like it, this is the mystery and the pain at the center of human life, death and loss. And no one really knows how to like approach that abyss. And you, it sounds like Matt, from what you're saying, it sounds like occasionally you feel like a guilt for bringing people up to that abyss. Right. Right.
Oh, for sure. I mean, I grew up with Catholicism, so that's going to be with me forever. Like, I always want to just sort of, like, charge into the mess, and I know that that isn't the right move with everybody, but the first thing I wanted to do was, like, be like...
Like, I mean, it's insane. I gave you that book by Joan Didion where she'd lost her husband. It's the most intense book about like grieving there ever was. And I was like, here's whiskey. And it's completely inappropriate. Like when I was grabbing that shit, it was like, it's helped me a lot because she made me not feel crazy.
she actually, I couldn't bring myself to do this, but she went through all these studies of grief and what it does to the actual body and stuff. And it's like the exact thing I'm feeling. I thought I was going insane. You, I mean, you know, I hope it's not too personal, but I mean, you told me you talked to your fucking dad for the first time in a long time. And so you, you know, asked Emily to marry you and stuff. And it's just like, it's one of those things. It's like, it sounds so fucking cheesy when it doesn't happen to you, but it's like,
Like, we don't know what will happen tomorrow. I mean, it's a major point, right, is when this kind of shit happens, we can either fall back on certain kinds of formulas, you know, or there are certain things you say, like, oh, one day at a time, and here's a casserole, or you can, I think, you can let it scare you. I do think that that experience of talking about what happened to Erica, going to that funeral, put me in this place of, like...
oh, yeah, I'm going to reach out. I'm going to evolve a little bit. I think one of the coolest things about you, Matt, and you should appreciate this, this is distinctive about you, I think, is that you are not backing down. I feel like it's worth pointing out, man. No, it's really... Thank you. Even that day, even that day at that funeral, I felt like you were confronting it and making sure shit got said and sort of guiding the day. And that is above and beyond. Yeah, well...
Again, I know it sounds cheesy, but she was my entire life. And it's very empty without her. There's so many beautiful people who are helping me, but it's still just, you know, when they're not there, the house is just so quiet and just, you know, I don't make her dinner anymore. You know, it's just those things. None of that sounds cheesy, Matt. I just don't want people to think that, like,
I have this horrible fear in like a year if I'm still feeling like shit, like it's not my fault. Like I'm not trying to obsess over it. You know what I mean? It's just like, you know, they don't say it explicitly, but it's implied. You need to start moving on. It's like, fuck you. It's just like, I would, I'd love to, but you know. Right. Coming up more of Matt's conversation with Adam and Eric and one more surprise person joins in.
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I'm Maria Konnikova. And I'm Nate Silver. And our new podcast, Risky Business, is a show about making better decisions. We're both journalists whom we light as poker players, and that's the lens we're going to use to approach this entire show. We're going to be discussing everything from high-stakes poker to personal questions. Like whether I should call a plumber or fix my shower myself. And of course, we'll be talking about the election, too. Listen to Risky Business wherever you get your podcasts.
What has helped you that anybody has said? Is there anything? It's mostly just actions. Even my friends just being there, I guess. That's helped a lot. The thing that Saunders wrote me was really wonderful. That made me not feel insane as well. What was different about it? It wasn't a cliched...
I don't know. Because he didn't say it was going to get better. And he didn't, he didn't expect me to think that it was going to get better. All it was, was just making me feel the way I'm feeling is okay. I would love for you to read it. Yeah, no, I'd love to. Um,
So, yeah, Adam, you posted something on Instagram, an excerpt from one of the last pages of Lincoln and the Bardo. And it just, you know, I couldn't stop rereading it. You know, it's just so beautiful and fucked up. And it kind of got lost more than like a stupid romantic film would do. You know what I mean? It was the book I was I was reading that day. That day. Yeah. And so, yeah, I immediately connected in it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And I'll never forget it. So I just I wrote a hello. I just lost my fiance two weeks ago and she was buried this last Saturday. She was 29. We had just moved into our first house together and we were about to start our life. My friend sent me an excerpt from your new novel and I keep it with me always. I'm reading the novel right now in my backyard, actually.
I don't even know if anyone will see this, but I just want you to know that you have helped me. I don't even know what to do anymore. So thank you, thank you, thank you. I've never understood loss like this. And the only thing keeping me from taking my life is that I know what it does to others. Be well. And he wrote back, Dear Matt, Oh, I am so, so sorry for your loss. That must be just unspeakably difficult.
I'm glad the book is saying something to you. I don't really know what to say except that someone told me this recently, that grief is a form of praise. You are praising the wonder of the person you lost. The great pain you are feeling means great love. I can't imagine that helps, but it is true. It is like cause and effect. You really saw anew and cherished her. That's what your grief is proving, and proving that she was wonderful and that you appreciated that. If you'll allow me for one more thought...
I'm 58. It feels like no time at all has passed since I was your age. Soon you will be here. I wonder if it helps to ask yourself, what am I going to do with that very short time I will have before I see my loved one again? The more you do, the more you love, and the more lives you touch, the better. You are here for both of you now. Of course, I don't know you, and I hope I haven't offended or over-advised, but my heart goes out to you, brother, and my prayers. All the best.
So that was the first exchange, and I don't know, that kind of dispoiled me. That's amazing. Yeah, let's take a... I love when he... I love that he calls you brother. There's something...
I don't know. I know. I see immediately how like he doesn't know you, Matt, but he's worried about saying the wrong thing. And he's worried about like rubbing you the wrong way. Like we're all we all have like such care for each other. It reminds me of strangers, you know, that we are trying. And this is such a fucking mystery that he is just trying not to get in your way. He only wants to boost you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
trying to make me feel better. And, you know, I didn't, I didn't respond to him cause I, you know, I didn't want to bother him or whatever. And then he kept reaching out to me on Facebook saying, I hope you got my notes. Oh yeah. I hope you got my notes or whatever. And I hope you're doing okay. And stuff like that. And that's incredible. I wrote him back. I don't know why I had this need. It sounds selfish or something, but I, I wrote him our engagement story and I just sent a picture of
I don't want us to feel like it's just some weird stranger or something. I know that doesn't make any sense. No, no. To make it realer, to like show the, yeah. And it's not fair to do to someone like he has his own shit to deal with, but I wanted him to just see her and know her. And anyway, so I, cause I wrote a long thing about our engagement night. Um, I said, I promise I'll stop bothering you. I just want to say thank you for your words. They brought me to tears. It means the absolute world. I've already gotten involved with groups, researching epilepsy to help others in her name forever. Um,
to help with this disease will always be. I'd also ask one last thing and we'll be out of your busy life. I'd like you to read about our engagement story. It lets you know who we were and not just strangers. I hope that you read it, but if not, I understand. I don't even know really why I'm sending it. I just want you to know who we were. I want everyone to know who she was and what she did for me. But again, if not, I completely understand. You've already done so much for me. Thank you, George, and I wish you well.
And he wrote back, Matt, this is so beautiful. It seems you have experienced a wonderful love in your life, as did she. She was a very lucky person to have you in her life. She knew love, and that's for sure. A beautiful engagement story. Such a thoughtful and dreamlike way of doing it. I will say this. You have known love and known loss. Your work with epilepsy groups will mean that you are minimizing loss and suffering in the world. You feel like you're in a place where you can do anything.
You feel to me like the kind of person who is going to take this pain and convert it into goodness. Brothers, for you, for Erica, and in her memory, please do keep in touch, George. Wow. So, yeah, it's really something. But it just meant a lot, you know? Yeah.
Just complete strangers doing this, and I have to cut this short. I mean, I'm talking forever. That's okay, man. I guess I'll leave it with this. Dealing with this is not really talked about, but I don't want people to feel crazy, you know, the way they're feeling, and it's okay. And I don't know. That's it. I fucking love you, man. We love you, buddy. Love you, too. Bye.
Yeah. You know, it's like there's nothing you can really say. But watching all these people try, I don't know. There was just something like I couldn't. To me, I think the thing that I found beautiful about it was.
was everyone was sort of telling him like oh think back to all your great memories and oh there's a and but he was stuck like looking at the future like the episodes of veep that hadn't come out or that like he was stuck looking at the hole in the future which is like like i i it's like there's no amount of past that can make up for that hole in the future and then i feel like
George Saunders in that letter, he sort of recast the future. Like, you're living for both of you now. And it's like, here's the... It's like, here's a way to bear the future. Yeah.
Well, thank you, Lulu, for playing that for me. You're welcome. Huge thanks to the team at The 11th. Big thanks also to the folks at Relentless Picnic. A little update about Matt in the almost five years since that conversation took place. He has fallen in love, gotten married, had a baby.
And he now works as a volunteer grief counselor to people who've lost someone due to a sudden unexpected death from epilepsy. And finally, a big thanks to Lou Okowski. She is the one who said, I had to hear that conversation. And actually, Lou did one of the most stunning pieces we've ever done at Radiolab. It's called Grandpa Okowski.
And it is also about two people looking very closely at death. I highly recommend you check it out. And if for some reason you don't want to listen to more stories about death, I recommend you listen to a story we did called The Luckiest Lobster about a woman who rescued a lobster from a grocery store. Yes, or that one. Either way, thank you for listening. We'll be back next week.
Radiolab was created by Jada Boomrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts. Susie Lechtenberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable,
Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Adam Schipil.
Drew Downey from Daphne, Alabama. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. Science Reporting on Radiolab is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science.
