What a Weekday: Slidin’ With Biden 44:47

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Mike's is hard. So is prison. Don't drive drunk. Premium all beverage with flavors. All registered trademarks used under license by Mike's Hard Lemonade Company, Chicago, Illinois. What are the shoes that have the red bottoms? Louboutin. Louboutin. I bought one pair of just super gay loafers with spikes on them to wear with a tuxedo to a very fancy party when I was back on my Plus One World Tour. So that's going back. And then when somebody broke into my house...

who clearly was not all there because they stole one of each of many of my shoes, which was so galling. Damn it. You know, the next day they're like, damn it. That's like Batman villain level annoyance. That's so dastardly. Yeah. I'm John Lovett. I'm here with Kendra, Hallie and Sarah. Hi. Hi.

And, uh, as you can see, we're trying to avoid it. And as I will say, through November and perhaps beyond, if we can't get out of it, gotta get into it. Let's get into it. What a week. We know America's... This is the truly worst... We didn't delete it. I was like, I'll guess if he wants it. We know America's hungry for some more Fallout on Prime. But all we've got is a shit ton of Primetime Debate Fallout. Ha ha.

On Friday, President Biden tried to shut down concerns about his age in an interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos. In the interview, Stephanopoulos asked Biden whether he had gone back and watched his disastrous debate, to which Biden replied, I don't think I did. No. Chilling. Chilling stuff.

Look, I get it. I never listened to that episode of Love It or Leave It where I said it was okay for white people to use the N-word said in Chapel Roan as a talentless hack and asked a hot guy in the audience on a date who then rejected me, then sobbed until I said, gotta go, it's diarrhea time because it was one bad night. Sounds like the Chicago show. Hey. Yeah.

But he doesn't think he saw the debate again. So he may have seen a recording of himself being humiliated on live television, but he's not sure. Not exactly reassuring. Biden blamed his poor performance on exhaustion, illness and Trump distracting him and denied the reality of his bleak polling numbers. Don't deny that Americans think you're too old. Tell us how you're going to convince them otherwise. We can't be the party of reality distortion. We get sweaty when we lie. We're not like them. They see us. They see right through us. They see right through us.

Biden insisted he would stay in the race even if senior Democrats called on him to step aside. I mean, if the Lord Almighty came out and said, Joe, get out of the race, I'd get out of the race. The Lord Almighty's not coming down. There's that Joe Biden charm we've been waiting to see. Just like we have nothing to fear but fear itself, I think we can all remember Biden's defining message, God will not save you. But...

I don't know, Joe. If you've read the Bible, you might discover that God is a real last word freak. You're going to tell us that it's A, up to God, and B, God isn't coming. Did God reject the meeting invite? Is God 0-0-0 on the company calendar? God isn't coming down? Look around. Plagues, floods, false prophets, war in the Holy Land. The kids on TikTok have gone full pagan. God is coming. Pay your taxes. Maybe he's already here.

God isn't coming. What a thing for the president of the United States to say. How do you know? I mean, this is the first day I've agreed with him on that God has abandoned us. It does feel that way. It seems to reason. Sure. Sure. I suppose. I don't know. God's not coming, said President Biden with a smile on television. All right. Then there was this. And if you stay in and Trump is elected and everything you're warning about comes to pass, how will you feel in January?

I feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the goodest job as I know I can do. That's what this is about.

Look, whether you figure it out at 20, 40, 60 or 80, happiness is about not needing external validation or reward. That's beautiful. When women who miss their periods Google abortion in Canada and doctors are quietly explaining to trans people how to get hormones via parents, endocrinologists, and Putin is looking at real estate in Krakow and Congress is redirecting every dollar of construction from the climate bill to highways and everyone is stocking up on pre-2025 home goods before whole swaths of the regulatory state were deemed unconstitutional. We'll all know that Joe Biden did his best.

That one's tough. Spoken like a person who's not gonna live to see the fallout. Yeah, California Congressman Adam Schiff said this on Sunday's Meet the Press. Given Joe Biden's incredible record, given Donald Trump's terrible record, he should be mopping the floor with Donald Trump. Joe Biden is running against a criminal. It should not be even close. And there's only one reason it is close. And that's the president's age.

This is neither here nor there, but I don't know if it's a good idea to mop the floor with Donald Trump. Have you seen that, man? The floor is going to be dirtier after. It'll be disgusting. Just kind of an orange gloop following the mop around. You know, you try to mop a floor with a dirty mop, you end up with a dirty floor.

And over the weekend, at least four senior house Democrats, Jerry Nadler, Adam Smith, Joe Morrell, and Mark Takano reportedly said on a private leadership call that Biden should step aside. They would join people like Seth Moulton and Mike Quigley. One of the lawmakers on the call said that those four were among many others estimating that at least half voiced concerns about Biden remaining the nominee. I spoke to Ro Khanna on Pod Save America yesterday.

And I said, I said, like, are all these people professing to support Biden full of shit? And Khanna said basically that there are two camps, but that a lot of people publicly saying they're still with Biden are privately deeply concerned.

Then on Monday, Biden sent a letter to congressional Democrats to say that he's not going anywhere and it's time to shut the fuck up. Said Biden in the letter, I want you to know that despite all the speculation in the press and elsewhere, I am firmly committed to staying in this race, to running this race to the end and to beating Donald Trump.

Joe Biden is the guy who's holed up in the bathroom at the club. There's a line of 50 people outside. He can hear everyone knocking with increasing urgency. Finally, a voice from inside, someone's in here. We know, Joe, we know you're in there, but what does that leave us? Where do we go from here? Shortly after sending the letter, Biden called into Morning Joe to double down on staying in the race and to lash out at party elites saying this.

I'm getting so frustrated by the elites. Now, I'm not talking about you guys, but about the elites in the party who they know so much more. If any of these guys don't think I should run against me, go announce the president. Challenge me at the convention.

This is, of course, just rhetoric not meant to convince anyone, but to silence those who disagree. The elite concern from pundits and politicians is a response to the concerns expressed by voters with increasing clarity over the past year. Poll after poll is clear. Voters think Biden is too old and they wish there was an alternative, including Democrats. This is like a chef saying he's only hearing complaints from the servers. Stop being so negative. The customers love shrimp on their Sundays. The server's complaints are not... They're from the customers.

They're coming. You're not seeing the customers. They're dealing with the customers. They're coming into the kitchen and they're telling you they don't want shrimp on the Sundays. You're like, I think I know my customers. Elite servers. Those servers would just be less negative. People would discover that they love shrimp on their Sundays. Yeah, I don't think we need to be injecting the word elite in any of this at this point. Like, oh, it's just, uh,

Keep that out of here. While no Democratic senators have called on Biden to step aside, a number have said they want there to be a discussion. Virginia Senator Mark Warner, who'd been trying to organize a huddle of Senate Democrats to discuss the Biden situation until news of the meeting was leaked, which caused the meeting to be canceled, which I don't really understand, just happened.

Have the fucking meeting. He said in a Monday statement, I believe it is incumbent upon the president to more aggressively make his case to the American people and hear directly from a broader group of voices about how to best prevent Trump's lawlessness from returning to the White House. A broader group of voices. So Hunter and Hunter's friends, there is an undercurrent through all of this that

You know, Joe Biden didn't call leaders in Congress for days after the debate. There is, it seems, a concern amongst people who are very worried about Joe Biden being the nominee that he is not getting feedback and that he is not seeing the full picture from the people he talks to. And all of it is just confirming, right? Because

He goes on Morning Joe when he says, like, I'm not going anywhere. All these elites are telling me that he makes these outrageous claims about the polls. The polls are bad. Maybe his internal polls aren't as bad as the public polls. Not good.

They're not good. I do think the fact that he's only listening to his family kind of speaks to the fact that he's thinking about this whole decision in terms of his own biography and not in terms of the electoral stakes. Like, I think he's thinking about this in terms of this is one more comeback in Joe Biden's life and not, you know, he laughed off that possibility that Trump could win, which is a very real possibility that he should be thinking about and concerned about. Yeah. And I think just saying like just to be in an interview with

saying, you know, like, well, I'll try my best. And that's the thing that matters the most. It's like, well, that doesn't seem good. Like that you would not simply that you would think that, I mean, we all have private thoughts, but that you would voice it aloud as sort of like, what if the worst thing happened? Well, I tried my best again, like that. It just creating more unease, even in people that it's like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe the debate didn't rattle you. But then since then, it's like, well, that speaks to something that isn't good. You know? Yes. I do think that he can't help, but make himself the protagonist in a drama. Um,

I do think he is undercounting. If he loses, all these people that are, I think, afraid to tell the truth right now, like if Joe Biden loses, you know how dumb we're all going to fucking look? The voters for a year have been saying we think he's too old and we want another option. He then showed us in that debate that actually, despite the very, I think, legitimate, legitimate

conclusion drawn by a lot of people, myself included, that Joe Biden was probably worth the risk versus a primary two years ago. Now that he was kind of seen in front of the country as being in a state that made those concerns far more valid than even we realized when the primary took place, that we were not going to take this opportunity to make a change, that we're going to sleepwalk

into a potential defeat, if we lose under those circumstances, if that is how Donald Trump came back to power, we are going to look like the most feckless and stupid and cowardly and shallow, glib people. This group of Democrats, every elected person defending Joe Biden right now, every person not being honest right now, you are going to look like fucking dumbasses. And by the way, if Joe Biden sticks it out and Joe Biden wins...

And this becomes what looks stupid. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. I'll take out like a dumb ass. I don't know. Yes. All I think we can do is be honest. Right. Like we're just being honest. Do I know that Joe Biden is not a safer bet than the alternative? No, of course. Can't know that it's impossible to know anything. It is uncertainty. We don't get to run to experiments. But.

If people, the members of Congress, if the senior people, if the aides for Joe Biden, if the people that have seen Joe Biden in person, if everyone was being honest in public about their concerns, I don't think this would be a close call. And so whatever happens...

Win or lose like how do I understand how people are gonna look themselves in the mirror? I just really don't look throw I want you to throw this clip in my face at Joe Biden election I will be so fucking happy. I'll be I'll be so happy to look like a moron, please Yeah, to be a dumbass who still has access to medicine. Oh, yeah, I mean just man Yeah

You know, because anyway, Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown told reporters Monday, he said, I'm not a pundit. I've talked to people across Ohio. They have legitimate questions about whether the president should continue his campaign. And I'll keep listening to people.

They also keep asking if they have to keep eating chili over spaghetti like that. But I told them, keep your damn mouth shut until after the DNC. You know, those Ohioans, they put the chili on the spaghetti. I love that shit. Of course. It's incredible. It's incredible. Chili and spaghetti? Don't mind if I do. Cincinnati bolognese. A little cinnamon in there. I love it. Chili on spaghetti. It's great. I think basically all foods are good together.

That's such a wild big statement. We just had a conversation about shrimp and sundaes. And I'm saying I'd give it a try. Someone could land it. Somebody could land it. I'd give it a try. Sweet and salty? There's something there. Yeah, why not? Why not? Umami? Whatever that is. MSG? I think it's a good statement and we can work back from there.

Patty Murray, the Senate president pro tem, said in a statement that we need to see a much more forceful and energetic candidate on the campaign trail and that Biden must seriously consider the best way to preserve his incredible legacy and secure it for the future. More energetic. They're going to have to start opening random drawers in Area 51 to see if any of that goop left that keeps Tom Cruise and Paul Rudd popping. You know, that goop from Area 51 that they give to Tom Cruise to keep him popping that Area 51 goop.

John Fetterman went to bat for Biden after joining him on the campaign trail over the weekend, telling CNN this. I actually spent the entire day with the president and he was he was perfect, whether it was in Philadelphia or whether it was in Harrisburg. At every single stop that we had, people were thrilled. I mean, people were thirsty to have their picture taken with the president.

If Robert Durst walked into a Panera, people would take a picture with him, too. Doesn't mean he should be the Democratic nominee, though he certainly would know how to use the newly expanded presidential immunity. And he's three years younger than Joe Biden. So I'm kind of talking myself into it. Don't do it. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up.

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I walk pundit. I get the same quad espresso every morning from Starbucks. Oh, and I also do go to therapy, although I did cancel therapy last night to do Anderson Cooper.

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and with the resources they need to recover and rebuild their lives for the long term. Just $14 can provide a temporary shelter for a displaced family, and $72 can provide two months' worth of emergency food for a child. Donate today by visiting rescue.org slash rebuild. Joe Biden made this argument, too, I think, to Mourning Joe. Well, where else could it be? He doesn't give a lot of interviews because he's...

uh not willing uh to face enough public scrutiny to justify his continuing campaign but uh he said uh you know i'm out there you know i wanted to go out there on the campaign trail and i'm seeing people and people people want me to stay in the race yes i agree that the events built around you the crowd built the crowds are in favor of you and by the way most people listen to this most democrats

90% of Democrats are going to do the right thing. They're going to vote for you. They're going to do everything they can to make sure you're elected. We have them. It's not about them. It's not about the people that want to take pictures of Joe Biden. We have those people. What about the people that are saying he is too old? They're not at these events. They saw the debate. They had concerns before the debate. They're going to see TikToks for the next four months of Joe Biden looking old. They're going to watch clips from a Republican convention.

They're going to see a ton of press, even if we all get in line about how Joe Biden is too old. What can Joe Biden possibly do over the next four months? Now, either he's going to be campaigning up and down the country,

To the point where he's going to have more and more of these of these slips or he's not going to do those things because he is unable to do those things without the age question becoming front of mind. Either option is one in which age is going to be the central question. So how are you going to speak to those people? I don't give a fuck about the people that want to take a photo with Joe Biden. I'm glad they're there. I'm glad that there are a lot of good Democrats who care about this country and will do the right thing no matter what. You have them. You fucking have them.

Later on Monday, AOC, in a punch in the gut, told reporters that she'd spoken with Biden over the weekend and she said this. Matters closed. Oh, well.

Yeah, I have nothing to say except that that was incredibly disappointing from her. Well, Lazarus and I were talking about this sort of like why like why the squad specifically or why progressive in general sort of like all sort of been on his side. Well, I just wonder if strategically they don't want it to look like this is a far left push to get Biden out.

and it's better coming from Biden's moderate centrist friends. I do think there is that is true. Like it just to me is more effective. But don't like lie to us. You thought you know, I agree. I mean, I would love if people were publicly honest about what they're feeling in private, but I don't know that any of these public statements would make a difference to him. I do think it is the private conversations that I hope are happening.

I think my only my only problem with that statement is the matter is closed. Like it is it. The rest is simply statements of fact. She spoke to Joe Biden. Joe Biden is not aside. As long as Joe Biden is the nominee, she's supporting the nominee. I respect all that. I just don't believe the matter is closed. Yes, of course, it is true. It is Joe Biden's decision. But the more people that are publicly expressing their doubts, that is the kind of environment in which the people he is talking to are going to be giving him advice and thinking through

what happens next as for the like a wire at the progress is speaking out wire it wise that the moderates Speaking out first of all, it is a testament by the way to Joe Biden's Successes as a president that he has these alliances with the left of the Democratic Party It is a testament to the fact that Joe Biden governed by listening that that Joe Biden a centrist figure someone who has spent

five decades in the public eye, always just standing at the dead center of the Democratic Party, if not a little bit to the right.

wins this nomination despite antagonism, not just from the left, but from basically the entire establishment that underestimated him. And he decides to listen to the people who say, you should build bridges with Bernie Sanders movement, with AOC, with Elizabeth Warren, with the left of the party. You should learn and listen to what they believe is the best path forward. And he does that. He does that on a variety of fronts. He does that on antitrust. He does that on student loans. He does that on the question of...

investing in the economy during a downturn versus the concerns from more centrist economists about inflation and the drag that that would cause. He fucking listened. He listened and it made him a very, very good president. That was humility. That was a person who, despite his age and time in D.C., was willing to change and adapt and learn.

And that's the Joe Biden we need right now. There's always been two sides to Joe Biden. There's always been the kind of blowhard, arrogant narcissist going on and on in front of Senate committees as other senators roll their eyes. There's that side of Joe Biden, the kind of windbag politician. But there's this other side, this empathetic,

kind decent patriotic Person who despite the ways in which the media and some on the left have said oh it was the the Moderation or was his preparation he goes even on morning Joe and says it was all on me It was all on me. He says that to George Stephanopoulos. It was my fault. It was my fault It's all on me right that part of him that takes responsibility that cares a lot about the people around him that cares deeply about the country Where's that guy? Where's that guy?

Then on Tuesday, Jerry Nadler whims the fuck out. I'm not going to comment on what I said in the private meeting. What I'll say is the president made very clear yesterday that he's running. And to me, that's dispositive. We have to support him. And after that meeting, this is how Biden's staunch ally, James Clyburn, responded to questions about Biden's fitness.

There were five others, apparently. Apparently, he said it nine times. We're riding with Biden.

And, you know, I wasn't convinced on number seven, but by number nine, I was back. I'm back in. Back at it. They got last. Meanwhile, this weekend, Vice President Kamala Harris spoke at Essence Fest in New Orleans. Harris actually avoided addressing the Biden situation entirely. She mentioned the president once by name after asking the audience to raise their hands if they'd had their student debt forgiven. And then the vice president closed by saying this. This is probably the most significant election of our lifetime. You know, we have said it every four years.

But this here one is it. In 122 days, we each have the power to decide what kind of country we want to live in. And some of us have a great deal of power over that today or the next couple of days. Really, any day between now and the convention. I think it was one of the Ezra Klein pieces, the quote from Kamala Harris after the debate, because she went on the shows to defend Joe Biden

And we were all, I think, in a state of, I think, slack, judge, shock. And so it was hard to see Kamala Harris as Kamala Harris and not Kamala Harris as representative of Joe Biden. And as representative of Joe Biden, she had an impossible job. And so the fact that she was, I think, ultimately prevaricating to avoid addressing directly the performance that Joe Biden had had entered was

But going back and watching her talking about the stakes in the election to try to get out of talking about Joe Biden, the debate, it was so refreshing to see a person cleanly, simply, directly, articulately, articulately, cogently, coherently expressing the stakes of the election, something Joe Biden has not been able to do at or since the debate. And I mean,

I mean, we talked about this yesterday on Pod Save America about whether there should be an open process or whether it should just be Kamala. And I do think that

Kamala's occasional moments of goofiness, I think, have been over torqued into questions about whether or not she's just a baseline solid politician, which she so clearly is. But even if there are people out there that are like, oh, you know, Kamala has traditionally been less popular than Joe Biden. There's these concerns kind of amorphous, vaguely racist, whatever, mixed with genuine concerns about sometimes moments where you feel like, why doesn't she just say what she thinks? This feels all a bit weird.

to rehearse. I think people are undercounting the groundswell of support and unity that would follow if Kamala Harris is suddenly the nominee. Now, do I think that she won't still be tagged with some of the faults and failures of the administration? That she won't face a kind of onslaught because of the burdens of incumbency? That, of course, is possible. And is there an argument to be made for someone other? Of course, but

Even if you have concerns about Kamala Harris, if you're standing in the rain and you can't get a ride home and a car pulls up and it's your least favorite colleague, just someone you just don't like at all. When you get in that car,

It's not that for the ride home, you pretend to like them. For the whole ride home, you fucking love them. You love them. You see the good in them. You're actually interested to learn more about them. You're like, wait, I never really gave you a chance. You're somebody that I never really got to know. This idea of you in my mind doesn't comport with the person who just rescued me from this uncomfortable situation. And then you get home and you go back to fucking hating them or disliking them or all the negative thoughts you may have had.

I don't think people understand or realize just how much we will love whoever this alternative is. And you know she's got good snacks in the car, too. She's got good snacks.

And like, also, I think it's worth saying about her goofiness. Like, yes, we've I think we've all had fun talking about the Funko Pops. That was a good moment. We we've gone into it. We had eight years of Joe Biden being called Uncle Joe and like making fun of his gaffes, too, that he would do. And it's like maybe a little bit of an unconscious bias as a black person.

a woman of color, like we might be not giving her as much leeway as other people. And I think what Joe Biden was for Obama, she is for Joe Biden. So we should be using our Dan Quayle vision. You know what I mean? Like that's what a VP has always been. So then like this is the exact situation where it's like, oh, well, I guess we have to get her out there. I personally think and look again, I will forever put up, you know that, but

Like, I feel like goofy aunt is actually not the worst energy, especially as a woman. I think of, like, Hillary, and it's like you see the iron behind the eyes, and that's a really tough thing in general. But, like, for me, it's like this is... Her goofiness is not...

Like, if anything, that's a great position for her to be in as much as like, as a woman, you have to be likable. You have to be related. Like this part that she is really good at, I think, is already there. And it's almost like I feel like it doesn't have to be the goofiness. Like we've just seen the like you said, the vice president version of her. Yeah. And I think that there's something to like the very broad stroke picture of having a woman who is a prosecutor, a cop, as some people like to call her, having to go up against a felon.

I also, yeah, I do think that some of her challenge has come from she was trying to figure out how to run in a Democratic primary when her whole brand and persona was cop. And that was a particular acute moment where cop was seen as a liability, though it remained the case then and has become even more true now that prosecutors, police,

These are popular figures in the public imagination, though maybe not in some quarters of the left. But that wouldn't matter. Let's get her doing voiceovers on Paw Patrol. Let's get her out there.

I miss the iron behind Hillary's eyes. That was my favorite bit. She was never going to win, dude, because she doesn't have it. And what I'm saying is I think Kamala Harris has it. We just have to figure out what that would look like, which we'd be happy to help with. I have some ideas. I'm happy to email whoever. I think she could do it. I think Kamala could do it. Listen.

Oh, that iron behind Hillary's eyes. Bringing me back to my salad days. Just that 10 out of 10 intelligence. Just like sharp. That sharp, sharp thing. God, I loved it. It's tough. Yeah, I think I respect it. I still get shit from the K-Hive because I made fun of Kamala Harris for doing that thing in the debate against Elizabeth Warren where she said, why won't you call on Twitter to ban Trump?

Trump from the platform. Elizabeth Warren joined me in calling on Twitter to change its admin policies. In hindsight, great debate. Well,

Yes, except Trump being off Twitter made did give him the space. Do you give him a little absence makes the heart grow fonder? Oh, I just mean we've seen worse debate since then. Oh, yeah. Oh, I see what you mean. Yes. This was using that. Yes. That was, of course, fucking Lincoln Douglas compared to the shit we've been doing ever since. I'm reading. So I was reading Ulysses S. Grant's personal memoirs. They're great. They're so good. I told you to read them.

Okay. I did not know that you told me to read them. And Jamel Bowie told me to read them. You told me to read it. No, I don't. We've talked about this. Okay. So is it a coincidence that I was going to also sell Jamel Bowie as the reason I'm reading it? He tweets about it a lot. Well, so maybe it was reaffirmed. Or maybe you reminded me. But I saw Jamel Bowie and I downloaded it. I'm sure you talked about it.

Why am I? Well, let's just give it. It was you. It was you and not Jamal Bowie. That's free. What am I doing? But they're incredible. Yes. But I'm a little bit bogged down right now in the machinations of

of the battles of the Civil War. Well, see, I love that shit. Well, it's interesting, but it's a lot of, you know, McMillan said to go north, but I thought we ought to march west. And so we marched west and I was right. But that's the thing. Then he'll throw in like a little sassy, like quote about it. He's sassy. Yes. He is sassy. It's really, Julius, he says, Grant, um,

is a messy bitch who lives for drama. And people don't know that. And I love him. I'm pretty sure they were written. He wrote them while he was very ill, like and on like Laudanum or something. That checks out based on that. So that makes sense. He does say at the very beginning of the book, I was reluctant to write a memoir like this because I thought people would get mad at me. I also wasn't sure if I'd be able to successfully write a book. But recently I lost all my money. And so I'm doing it.

Which I also really think is cool because it was before we gave the presidents a big pension. But the reason I bring that up, other than to, you know, fill time between ads for various supplements, is that so I was a little bit bored in the Civil War section. So the section between Lincoln's election and the start of the war is very brief, but it was fascinating. It was fascinating about both the way in which people inside the Buchanan administration basically acted like insurgents.

We used husbanding resources trying to prepare the South for succession, but also of the pre-war interactions between unionists and secessionists and the way in which secessionists were adopting the language of they're coming for our freedoms.

They're going to tell us what kind of flag we can fly. They're coming for our way of life. And so I was really interested in that period. And so I'm reading this book, The Demon of Unrest, which just came out recently, I believe, by Eric Larson. Oh, he has a new one? Yes, The Demon of Unrest. And it's about Fort Sumter and the lead up to Fort Sumter and what happened right after. And the way in which basically right-wing propaganda...

is convincing the South that the North is going to, that like, even though Lincoln has not said he will abolish slavery, that these propagandists are basically trying to kind of rile everyone up into this conflict. And I think the reason I brought it up is it's nobody on either side really conceived of just how bad what was coming would be. That

It was all perspective. It was all in the future. It was all rhetoric. It was a lot of rhetoric.

And Project 2025 is real. It's real. It is happening. Like they will pursue these policies. They will pursue them even if they are more damaging and destructive that they can conceive of in their own mind, even if they cannot see the harm that they will cause. They can't actually conceive of the harm they will cause. They will cause it anyway. I do not. You know, the Supreme Court overturns Roe.

And then Amy Coney Barrett is flabbergasted by what she hears about what's going on in Idaho. It's not just that these people will put in place cruel policies. They will do so fecklessly, cavalierly, without fully understanding the pain of what they will do. They will do it anyway. And the idea that we are going to spend these four months pretending...

that there's some magic or secret way to make up for Joe Biden's deficits is ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. And, you know, I feel like there's like these this just like sneering in both directions. Everybody is kind of faking certainty. Nobody knows what's going to happen. But I do believe one group of people are being honest.

And one group of people is either deluding themselves or being dishonest. And when we don't know what's going to happen, when the future feels uncertain and when the stakes feel so high, wouldn't you rather be honest? Wouldn't you rather be honest?

It's all we have to offer. Like the other side has their commitment to the American religions, which is like white supremacy. And now truly like they're not obscuring. This is a white Christian nationalist project. Like they are being very open and will affect all of everyone in this room will be affected by it. Everyone listening to this will be affected by it.

And all we have to offer is pointing that out and getting the people in the middle who are, you know, again, seeing this from their perspective. Again, we're all voting for whoever's going up. The people in the middle at the end of the day, the fear that I have is like people will just go stay home because they will have tuned this out for so long. Like this debate is a debate we're having and that people who are not going to vote will be like, this is simply too much. And I'm also sympathetic to that.

I don't know. It just feels like a party-wide freeze response. Like when there's a threat, you can flee, fight, or freeze. And it feels like... And there's also... There's this... This isn't an Aaron Sorkin TV show. I mean, you've used the word feckless twice on this podcast already. Let's cut one of my fecklesses. This isn't an Aaron Sorkin show. And you're right. It's not a TV show. It's real life. But I actually don't follow...

the logic of that. I suppose what it means is in TV, in the movies, there can be Hollywood endings where groups of people do brazen, courageous, risky things for the purposes of achieving an end. And because it's a movie, those ends take place. They get what they want. But dramatic and film worthy moments happen all the time. A lot of what Aaron Sorkin writes is based on true events and

Barack Obama successfully managing to get Obamacare through, if you describe what it took to make that happen, it sounds like fiction. Whether or not it is dramatic is not important. Is it the right thing to do or not? Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. Sometimes reality...

And there's nothing inherently safe about cowering in place and doing nothing. No, there isn't.

I do. I'm glad that freeze that fight, flight and freeze that freeze has sort of entered kind of has like has been cut, become more accepted because you're right. That is what they are. We are freezing. These these are members of Congress who are freezing. They're looking around. They're in an emergency. They don't know what to do. So they look around and see what other people are doing. They see those other people are doing nothing. So they do nothing, too. But somebody threw the first brick at Stonewall.

Yeah. And like if you have a fight response, there's obviously there's no guarantee that you win that fight. Like, how dare you not try? How dare you not do something? Yeah, I think it is probably right to count on cowardice when it comes to politicians. But I do think they are also undercounting.

just how much they will be held responsible for failing to tell the truth during this time. Do you think people won't remember if Joe Biden loses? I think people just assume things are going to get so bad so quickly that like the idea of repercussions for a politician, I think people, that's already kind of, in my mind, I think of a past. After Trump, it's like nobody expects anyone to have repercussions. And I'm not saying that like you're not right, like you are morally correct.

materially, I think people would the idea that people would expect that. I think we've we have entered another age. We're all talking about Joe Biden, which Trump is, of course, enjoying. Trump has been laying low at Mar-a-Lago watching as Joe Biden's failure at the debate and his failure to address the concerns that have followed from the debate lets him just sort of win while golfing. But he took a break

I guess, between the back nine and the front nine to disregard and try to disavow the 2025 project, because I guess they're there. What they're seeing is that that actually this their plans for next year is the one thing that may be breaking through and and making clear for people the stakes because Joe Biden's not doing it. Joe Biden doesn't mention 20 didn't mention 2025 in any of the press that he's doing. So Donald Trump puts out a post that says, I don't know what Project 2025 is, and I hate it.

Even though it's what, 31 of the 38 people involved in drafting the project were in the Trump administration or nominated to the Trump administration. It is being created by all the people that will staff and make policy inside of the administration. These are all policies that he has embraced and will appraise again. So it what is the so Joe Biden's not making the case, but luckily the 2025 project is making the case for itself. And what's cool about it

We're able to do what Republicans have been able to do for years, which is they have a secret plan. These Republicans have a secret conspiracy to destroy the country called Project 2025 that they've been working on behind closed doors at their secret meetings. And it happens to be true.

And so so what do we do to get the focus back on this? Well, either Joe Biden puts these concerns to rest or he doesn't. I don't know what else to say about it. Can't blame Trump for disavowing it because lying confidently has worked the whole time. Yeah. And Biden, of course, has his own project 2025, which is to see the year 2026. I want to end today with this moment from the Morning Joe interview.

The country, the rest of the world looking, our allies are looking for U.S. leadership. Who else do you think could step in here and do this? I expanded NATO. I solidified NATO. Ask your brother about it. Who the hell else could step in here and do this? As of right now, Biden's strategy seems to be to get a spray tan, bully members of Congress into silence, and say that no one him can fix it, while lying about polling and calling his critics a bunch of elite. Who does that sound like? Who does that remind you of?

You can either leave the most successful and beloved president in our lifetimes, or you can stay long enough to become all that you despise. That's sort of where we're at here. Hey, looks good doing it. Lazarus, do you think that a spray tan is going to make the difference here? I think that and announcing that he's going to start going to bed earlier, I think those two things together...

Home run. And listen, again, as a woman, I turned 40 and I too thought, I'll just go to bed early. I'll get a spray tan. It's all going to work out. You know, I have to say, going to bed earlier is awesome. It does. I mean, it's incredible. Everyone, please go to bed early. It'll change your life. Go to bed earlier. Go to bed early. It's awesome. Oh, so much more energy. And this is what we use it for. And finally, a horse broke loose and galloped through the crowd at writer Sarah Lazarus's hometown 4th of July parade.

It wasn't worth the screams. But don't worry, parade officials insist the horse is not a metaphor. Running an ill-advised race and endangering a ton of people in the process until running out of steam and being lulled back to safety with a sweet treat. It's not a metaphor. Not a metaphor at all.

All right, before we go, you may have heard that there was a snap election last week in the UK. The team over at Pod Save the UK has been doing an amazing job covering the results and what they mean for the United Kingdom and beyond. On Friday, they released a very special election episode with everything you need to know to understand the results and their repercussions for global democracy. Last week, they also officially launched their own YouTube channel where you can find all of their full episodes, clips, and exclusive YouTube content. They also, I think they got a little tipsy. Oh, wow. Because, uh...

Their whole country came together and said, we would like to end this 14 year conservative rule and try something else. Sounds really nice. If you want to tune in, search for Pod Save the UK on YouTube and make sure to follow them so you don't miss a thing. And that is our show. If you are listening to this and you feel like it is both somehow Joe Biden's decision and yet a decision that belongs to and affects all of us, pick up your phone.

Call a member of Congress and tell them that you want them to tell the truth about what they saw in the debate or tell them you want Joe Biden to stay in whatever your position. But I do think that Joe Biden won't quit. So Joe Biden won't quit is not really an acceptable answer. And if what we're waiting for is one more turn of the screw where Joe Biden has some sort of

public display of frailty or decline that is inevitable. So or he's going to be hidden from view. Either way, we're careening towards disaster. So I would say

If you're feeling like it, you can pick up your phone right now, call a member of Congress and register your concern because that actually does get to the members. It gets to the senators and it matters. And even if very few of them right now are publicly telling the truth, privately, I think they all are and the polls aren't getting better. So with that. Woo!

With that, see you sluts on Saturday. We have a great show coming up. We'll be here. Honestly, look, it's a dark moment, but I'm glad that we're telling the truth about it rather than doing the alternative. And the Posse of America show we did after the debate, I was so glad we got to do it. It was one of the most cathartic shows I think we've ever done. And I'm glad that we can be here to have these conversations, even if...

It all feels a bit uncertain. And with that, Sarah, Kendra, Hallie, the whole team, thanks.

Love It or Leave It is a Crooked Media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett, and Lee Eisenberg. Kendra James is our executive producer. Chris Lord is our producer. And Kennedy Hill is our associate producer. Hallie Kiefer is our head writer. Sarah Lazarus and Jocelyn Kaufman, Peter Miller, Alan Pierre, Will Miles, and Mahana Del Shiki are our writers.

Evan Sutton is our editor. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis provide audio support. Stephen Colon is our audio engineer. And Milo Kim is our videographer. Our theme song is written and performed by Sure Sure. Thanks to our designer, Bernardo Serna, for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast. And to our digital producers, David Tolles, Claudia Shang, Mia Kelman, and Matt DeGroat for filming and editing video each week so you can.

Anyway, anyone see that Gladiator 2 trailer? I haven't seen the trailer yet. I love the first Gladiator. I've never seen the first Gladiator, but I didn't like it. I didn't realize Denzel was like the second lead of this movie. Oh, it looks great. That's exciting. Pedro Pascal and Denzel. And then that, um, Mescal, Paul Mescal. Paul Mescal. But also Pedro Pascal. Wait, also Mescal and Pascal? Yeah.