Gary Chapman 23:59

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Just about everybody has heard of the five love languages. Well, the author, Gary Chapman, is our guest now on this Christmas edition of First Person. Welcome, I'm Wayne Shepherd.

Merry Christmas to you. It's such a great time of the year, and I'm very glad to have you join us for a conversation with Dr. Chapman. If you can't stay with us for the entire interview, it, along with all past programs, can be found online at FirstPersonInterview.com. Or take time to download our free smartphone app for convenient listening. Look for First Person Interview in your app store, and look for First Person on Facebook, where you can leave a comment on what you hear. You'll find us at Facebook.com slash FirstPersonInterview.

Dr. Gary Chapman, who is an author and counselor, has a passion for helping people form lasting relationships. His books on the five love languages have sold millions of copies and has been a New York Times bestseller for many years. I connected with Gary a few days ago online, and we talked about Christmas, including asking him if he had a very special Christmas memory. Oh, you know, all of them are very meaningful to me. It's the one time where

For example, that my wife's family all comes to our house and we've been doing it for years and years and years. Of course, as time has gone on, they keep dropping out and going to heaven. So the group's getting smaller, but I always enjoy that. And then on Christmas Eve, of course, our immediate family, you know, has our Christmas time together, which is always so meaningful. You know, I think Christmas kind of,

opens up a lot of emotions for most people. It certainly does for us. Obviously,

First of all, because of what Christ did for us. And, you know, there's just a reminder of all of that. But the other factor is the family, you know, because God, we are in God's family and then we have our families. And I think God instituted that. And so it's just always good to get families together at Christmas time. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you for all that you've done and meant to us through the years.

Your books on the love languages, of course, have sold millions and tens of millions of copies, and so many people have benefited from it. Your latest is God Speaks Your Love Language, and it's true, especially at Christmas, isn't it? God spoke our love language in sending Christ to us. We'll talk more about that in a few moments, but I want to talk to you about your own story. We know so much about what you write about and about the love languages and the stories you share in your books, but I want to know about you and your personal testimony, Gary. When did Christ enter your life?

You know, I came to Christ Wayne when I was 10 years old. People have asked me along the way, do you think children really know enough to, you know, have a real conversion experience? I can say, well,

I did. As a matter of fact, it was a Sunday night. It was the first time I was in church, first time I've ever even realized that I was not a Christian because I'd gone to church my whole life. But sitting there in church that night, I realized I had never accepted Christ as my Savior. I had never invited Him into my life. I was not a Christian. And

And to be honest with you, I was ashamed to go forward at the end of the service because I thought everybody thinks I'm a Christian. You know, I had that thought and I didn't go forward.

And that week, I mean, I walked out that night really sad because I just felt like God had called me and I kind of resisted, you know. And I thought, well, I'm going to do it next week. Well, next Sunday, I didn't feel, you know, drawn to Christ like that. And I thought, man, did I miss my opportunity? I mean, this is a kid, 10 years old, you know. And so, no.

Next Sunday, I felt the same thing I did two Sundays before. I ran to the church at the end of the service, got on my knees and accepted Christ. So, yeah, it was very, very meaningful to me as a 10-year-old young man. Who were some of the early encouragers for you in your faith walk? Well, I think while I was in high school, our youth minister and his wife were very, very encouraging.

We did a lot of outreach. We would, as teenagers, we would go to places

In those days, we called beer joints. And we would give out tracks, you know, and talk to people. That's pretty bold. Yeah. So we kind of, as young people, we kind of got pushed into that sort of thing. And it was very meaningful, you know, their impact on my life. Very meaningful. Aren't you thankful? I mean, we've both lived enough years. We can look back and see many, many people who,

who have added to our faith and encouraged us and mentored us. And I'm sure you have a string of people in your background.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, in my college years, there were individuals who had a real impact on my life. And Jim Merck, who at the time was living in Wheaton, this was after I finished Moody and went to Wheaton. I lived in his home for a year. In fact, there were four of us guys that lived in his home. And he had some Navigator background. And so he was discipling us. We had a weekly Bible study with him. And he mentored us and met with each of us once a week.

And that had tremendous impact upon my life. So we know you as a counselor, family counselor, marriage counselor, as a writer. Did this calling just happen? Was there a step-by-step calling? Did God call you? Did you see the calling before you? You know, it was a step at a time. I never in those early years ever thought of being an author. I never gave any thought to being a counselor.

I only knew there was two things you could do full-time ministry. One would be a pastor and the other would be a missionary. And at 17 years of age, my senior year in high school is when I really sensed that God wanted me into some kind of ministry. And I visioned missionaries as

working in the jungle, and I didn't like snakes, so I figured God must want me to be a pastor. Pretty logical, yeah. So I enrolled at Moody Bible Institute in the pastor's course. In those years, it was an institute, you know, only three years. It was not a degree program then. And so by the time I finished Moody, I really sensed God did want me on the mission field.

And I really leaned in that direction. So when I went to Wheaton for my degree, I majored in anthropology, you know, cultural anthropology, which is a great background for missions. And so I really intended to go to the mission field. And once when Carolyn and I got married, we discussed it. I mean, she was she was game and felt like, well, yeah, I feel like I'm with her. I'm willing to go with you, you know. And so that was our plan all

All along those years, went back to seminary, you know, eventually got my Ph.D. And the only reason I got my Ph.D. is I talked to the mission board and they said, you know, my vision was to train nationals so they could reach their country for Christ, you know. And they said, well, that would be probably in a seminary or college setting and it would be great if you had a Ph.D. Well, I'd never even thought about that.

And I said, well, okay. So we played about it, and we went back to seminary and did the PhD. And then we officially applied to the mission board and got turned down because of my wife's health. They said, we were going to Nigeria. And they said, no, we can't send her to Nigeria. And of course, you know, she felt guilty. She said, you know, I'm keeping you from going to the mission field. Well, you can imagine how that felt and how that made me feel, you know.

So it was a time of real struggle for us, you know, just questioning God, what is going on here? Looking back on it, of course, you know, God's plans was different from ours. And so, you know, I said, well, if we're not going to teach over there, I guess I should teach here. So I applied to 27 universities and colleges and did not a single opening. And so...

And so I took a job as a summer youth director in a church just for the summer. And, uh, and then by the fall, I ended up going to a little Bible college called Piedmont Bible college, which is here in North Carolina. And for three years I taught there and I really, really enjoyed the teaching. But then I was invited to come to a church on the other side of town and start a college ministry. And, uh,

I thought, man, I can do teaching and not have to worry about all the academic stuff, you know. So I did that for 10 years. I directed the college ministry and it just absolutely wonderful. Started Bible studies on Wake Forest campus, started with one and kept multiplying, got up to 30 Bible studies going. Every Friday night was open house at our house for college students. And every Sunday morning I taught a class for college students, 150 kids there every Sunday.

but during those years, I never thought I would ever get into counseling. You know, in fact, when I went to seminary, they didn't even offer a master's in counseling. Is that right? I took the courses they offered five or six courses, but there wasn't even a degree offered. And, uh,

So, but when I got into church and started working with adults, you know, those that were hurting wanted to talk, and I kind of got pushed into counseling. But it became a major part of my ministry. I mean, for years, I was seeing 20 to 25 couples a week. You know, nobody told me that was too many. And so, and then the books, really, I had never thought of being an author, but... Yeah, did you enjoy writing?

You know, I did, but I didn't, I never thought I would write. And, and what motivated me was the people were asking me in local churches to come and speak or lead a course on marriage. And I thought, you know, if I had some of this stuff in writing, I could leave it behind and it would help it be more productive, you know, rather than just speaking. And so that's what motivated me to write my first book. And, uh,

So after that, the books just kind of kept flowing through the years, you know, just really an overflow of my ministry. And here's an interesting thing, Wayne.

You know, now my books are published in over 60 languages. I was in Hungary before the pandemic, and they published 32 of my books in Hungarian. And so they always send copies. As you know, we open up the boxes and we pray for the country. And so one night we were sitting on the couch and opened these boxes. And I looked over on the couch and Carolyn was crying. And I said, what's wrong, honey? And she said, nothing's wrong.

I'm just remembering we wanted to be missionaries. And now your books are all over the world. Oh, great thought. And I cried. Yeah, who wouldn't? I'm crying right now. That's a great story. You know, so many people are looking for God's will and they want the platform now. And what I'm thinking about as I hear you tell your story, there was a long ramp up to what God has called you to do and equipped you to do. And we have to be patient and patient.

We have to be trained and equipped and serve and experience, and then perhaps God will bring it about, huh? Yeah, I think so. And I think at every juncture, God is using us, you know, but we're learning and we're growing as we're being used.

But we don't know where the road's going to lead in terms of vocation or ministry from the beginning. We discover that as we move down the road with God. Coming up on First Person, we'll continue this conversation with Gary Chapman talking about God speaking your love language at Christmas.

Hi, I'm Ed Cannon. And as you know, situations around the world are changing quickly. Stay current with FEBC's ministry and get a deeper understanding of people who need to find hope. Hear how you can feel the pulse of God's Spirit moving through the hearts of believers dedicated to reaching the lost. Be sure you join me for the podcast until all have heard. Discover how the gospel is making a difference around the world.

Search for Until All Have Heard on your favorite podcast platform or hear it online at febc.org. My guest is the number one New York Times bestselling author of the five love languages, Gary Chapman. We're talking here just before Christmas.

And Gary, your book caught my attention, God Speaks Your Love Language, and I went through it because I wanted to see how you would apply the five love languages to this theme, and it's terrific. And I want to put it in a Christmas context. God spoke our love language, all five of the love languages, when he came in the person of Christ at Christmas. Can we talk through those and just apply each of those? Would you mind doing that?

By the way, I'll remind everyone the love languages are words of affirmation, quality time, gifts, acts of service, and physical touch. And I see God in every one of those. Absolutely. You know what motivated that book? People kept asking me, what's God's love language? And so I just went through the whole Bible and I said, ooh, man, he speaks all five of them. Old Testament, New Testament, everywhere. But certainly in the Christmas coming of Christ, he speaks all five of those. Take acts of service, for example.

You know, Jesus himself said, the son of man did not come to be served. I came to serve. And, you know, Peter said about Jesus, he went about doing good. He was speaking acts of service his whole life.

And then, you know, gifts, of course. He said, I came to give my life a ransom for others. And, you know, his crucifixion, man, that was the greatest gift the world has ever known. Acts of service, words of affirmation. You know, if you follow this, follow his life.

and hear the words he said, you know, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. You know, no man comes to the Father except through me. Wow, that makes you want to run to him. So you see those words, you know, in the coming of Christ. So words and acts and service and quality time. You know, I really thought a lot about this. You know, I think it's Mark chapter 3, maybe verse 14, where it says, Jesus ordained twelve

that he might be with them. And I thought, you know, Jesus preached and talked to multitudes, but he gave quality time to 12 men. And I was thinking, you know, can you really imagine for three and a half years,

hanging out with Jesus. I mean, he would speak to the multitudes that night, you know, around the campfire. They'd say, "Now, what did you mean by that?" You know, their undivided attention to those 12 men, you know, quality time. And of course, we have that opportunity now. We don't see him, but we sit down with him, acknowledge his presence with us, and we have his undivided attention.

Yeah, absolutely. And then physical touch, you know, just look at his life, you know. I remember the one time, you know, he was speaking and people started bringing their children to Jesus. And the disciples rebuked them and said, no, no, no, no, no, this is for adults. And Jesus rebuked the disciples and said, let the little children come to me for such is the kingdom of God. And the next verse says, he put his hands on them and blessed them. Oh, yeah.

And if you follow his life, he was always touching people, you know, touching lepers and touching blind people. So all five of them are demonstrated in the life of Jesus. That's excellent. Back on words of affirmation, I was thinking in terms of the whole Bible is a word of affirmation to us, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And here's what I discovered as I was writing that book. I started looking at conversion experiences, both in the scriptures and church history.

and in contemporary Christianity. We all seem to come to God different ways and different things. For example,

touch people. My guess is that Saul, who became Paul, and his language was physical touch because he was totally against God. God touched him. He knocked him off the horse and blinded him. That was quite a touch. And there are people today who will say, you know, I was just sitting in a service and all of a sudden my body started shaking. I started weeping. I couldn't control myself. I just sensed God was touching me. Well,

Well, not everybody has that kind of experience. But if you're a physical touch person, that may be the way God speaks to you most deeply, you know? And so, and the other factor that I discovered is that once we become believers, we're

We most naturally express our love to God in our love language. For example, if acts of service is my love language, I'm the one that volunteers to work in the soup kitchen. You know, if words is my language, I'm the one that's always praising God and using words. You know, if physical touch is my language, I'm the one that most naturally raises my hands in worship. Get on my knees when I pray. You know, just a fascinating study.

of how our love language, you know, we use it to express our love to God. But here's one of the points I make in that book. We're creatures of habit, and God never intended to become just routine for us. For example, you know, if you're an acts of service person, when you started serving soup at the soup kitchen,

Every time you dipped it out, you looked up at the person in front of you and saw Jesus because you remember what he said. You know, you do it to the least of these. You do it to me. Well, I was 10 years ago. Now you still go to the soup kitchen.

But you're not seeing Jesus. You're just dipping soup. It's just what you do on Thursday night. You know, it's a routine now. And God never, never wants it to be routine. So I encourage people, learn some new dialects of your language and maybe try some of the other languages, you know, to keep it alive and awake in your relationship with God because that's what he wants for all of us. Help us live out these languages and showing –

love and acts of service, et cetera, to our families here at Christmastime. Families are going to be gathering, and we know that can be both a joyful time and a stressful time for a lot of people, sometimes both, you know. Talk to us about how to relate to each other during these holiday seasons. Well, I think in an immediate family, if we're thinking in terms of what happened on Christmas, you know, and God's greatest gift to us by becoming man and living among us,

there ought to be a sense of thanksgiving and Christmas ought to be focused on Jesus. I think that's the first implication. And so as we do,

uh we we share with each other some spiritual aspects of you know christmas and what what it means to us in our own individual lives should be a time of sharing but it should also be a time of serving because as you mentioned we often have people come into our house that aren't there you know during the formal routines of life and so uh even if acts of service is not your primary language

This is the time to volunteer, to help your wife or your husband and the children to help their parents, especially when they have guests that are coming in the house, because there's so many things that need to be done. And we shouldn't just leave it to mother. If she's the one that normally cooks, don't just leave it all to her. You know, if dad's the one that cooks, don't leave it all to him. Let's let's let's find ways that we can help each other.

With acts of service and then expressing thanks to family members during during the Christmas season to really appreciate this. You did a good job with this. And I really appreciate that, because sometimes we just take for granted what family members are doing for each other and for the larger family during the Christmas season.

Well, we're about to enter into a very holy couple of days here. Christmas is just in front of us. And I wonder, would you pray for families right now? Let's take a moment, and for those who are listening, and pray for people who have the opportunity to show God's love to others through speaking God's love language to each other during this time. Would you lead us in prayer for that, Gary? Father, thank you for what you did for us those many, many years ago when you wrapped yourself in flesh and was born as a baby.

and lived and walked among us. We weren't there then, but we're here now. And we're deeply grateful for what Christ did as he grew and matured and served and gave his life ultimately at ransom for us. Thank you for that gift of forgiveness. Thank you for the presence of your spirit among us during this season. And Father, I pray for your people all over the world because you know that we live in a very troubled world in our generation.

And I pray for Christian parents, you would give them wisdom on how to use this season as a time to teach and instruct and train their children to follow the example of Christ, first giving their hearts to him when he calls for them, and also, Lord, taking their abilities and their interests and using them to serve other people. Father, I pray that during this season there will be people that will be drawn to Christ, some who never go to church except at Christmas.

Father, touch their hearts, draw them to yourself. May there be in this season a revival in the hearts of your people, and may those who do not know you have a hunger for something more than what they've experienced. So may this be a time in which your people rejoice in what you've done for us and in our families, speaking love to each other in all the love languages.

and expressing our love to you in any way that we can. Father, may we be faithful during this season to let it be a time of acknowledging what Christmas is all about, and that is the coming of Christ. In his name we pray. Amen. Amen. Dr. Gary Chapman's latest book, which we referred to today, is titled God Speaks Your Love Language, subtitled How to Experience and Express God's Love. You'll find a link to the book at firstpersoninterview.com.

This interview will be kept online for listening anytime at FirstPersonInterview.com. As a matter of fact, all of our past programs can be heard either online or with that smartphone app. The app is free and can be found in your app store when you look for First Person Interview.

And as we near the end of the year, thanks for visiting the Far East Broadcasting Company's website, febc.org. FEBC has faithfully supported First Person again this year, and we're very grateful for this provision making these interviews possible. Again, please visit febc.org. And Merry Christmas from the team at First Person. With thanks to my friend and producer, Joe Carlson, I'm Wayne Shepherd. Join us next week for the final program of 2023.