Robert Elliott 23:59

First Person is produced in cooperation with the Far East Broadcasting Company, who rejoice in the stories of changed lives through the power of Jesus Christ. Learn more at febc.org. John Knox was motivated to boldness out of a genuine fear that he honor and reverence and give God his place, you know. So, yes, bold, but not cocky. ♪

Very glad to have you with us now for this edition of First Person as we're about to celebrate Reformation Day on the Christian calendar. Our guest is Pastor Robert Elliott, who will fill us in on one of the great leaders of the Reformation, John Knox.

Just before we begin this week's interview, I'd like to welcome any new listeners to First Person who may be joining us. This program focuses on the lives of Christian believers, past and present, who have followed Christ's leading in their lives. We hear life stories every week, and they encourage us in our spiritual walk as we pursue our own calling. We've archived hundreds of interviews, and you'll find them online at FirstPersonInterview.com. Unfortunately, Halloween often eclipses Reformation Day in our minds, and we miss the great history of the Christian Church.

Robert Elliott is the pastor of the Reformed Baptist Church in Riverside, California, and he joins us online today to talk about the life and ministry of John Knox, one of Scotland's great spiritual leaders. As we began, I said to Pastor Elliott, it's a shame we spend so little time thinking about Reformation Day. Absolutely. I have to agree with that. You know, it happens to be on Halloween, doesn't it? Yes. And that's one of the highlights of American culture.

And right there, side by side, there's another bay that in so many ways is responsible for shaping and molding the nation of America and the freedoms that we've enjoyed for all these centuries now. Right. So we're going to try to overcome some of that here through this conversation, specifically around the personality of John Knox, which happens to fit nicely with your Scottish background. Yes.

So let's talk first of all about the Reformation itself. It didn't begin in Scotland. Of course, it came to Scotland a bit later through Knox and others, but let's talk about where it began. Well, it's one of those things that everybody will date it to 1517, you know, when Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the door in Wittenberg in Germany, the cathedral there.

The fact is that prior to the Reformation, as we call it, starting in 1517, there were Reformation movements all across Europe. Right back into the 11th, 12th, 13th centuries in Britain, you had the Lollards with John Wycliffe.

Names like Jan Hus or John Hus would come to mind as well there in Europe where men just would go back to the Bible again and again. You know, they'd see the corruption that man brings and they would say, wait a wee minute, we need to go back to the source.

But then really in 1517, there was a local movement that God blessed and turned it into, if you like, a worldwide revival. And the essence of it was sola scriptura, let's get back to God's word. Enough of the added stuff, enough of the nonsense that eventually men bring in, you know, just because that's who we are. And let's get back to the

to the scriptures. So the root of what we call the Reformation, yeah, Martin Luther, Germany, 1517. But there were a few Scotsmen went over there fairly early on. One was a young man called Patrick Hamilton, went over to see what was happening in Germany.

And he brought that back. He brought the sola scriptura back to Scotland. And sadly, he was burned at the stake long before John Knox was ever a Christian. Hmm.

And then Geneva figures into this too, of course, John Calvin. Yeah, Calvin and Knox ended up being really good friends. And there was times when Knox would go over there, you know, minister alongside Calvin, specifically to the English-speaking exiles who had left England, Scotland, because of the pressure the Christians were under. And the

they would actually minister side by side. And can you imagine in Geneva, if you could speak both French and English on a Sunday morning, standing outside these two churches and thinking to yourself,

Who am I going to go and hear this morning? John Knox or John Calvin? How would you make that decision? I don't know. Oh, that would be a difficult one indeed. All right. Yeah. So let's talk about Scotland before we talk more about John Knox. Talk about the monarchy there in Scotland, about the culture that existed prior to Knox's ministry. I think that's an excellent question, brother, because...

Scotland was pre-reformation, one of the most spiritually and economically poorest of places. The church was just utterly corrupt. The priesthood could get away with doing whatever they wanted. In fact, the priests were typically also the politicians.

You know, they had legal authority, they had political influence, and then they had the ecclesiastical power. And it made them cruel and immoral. And the people were generally illiterate.

So anything could be taught to them and they wouldn't know. So superstition and fear was the order of the day, keeping people's consciences bound and dark, you know. And then economically, the people of Scotland were just a sad bunch of people. You know, they lived in little crofts, as we call them. So a croft is a little tiny farmhouse with maybe a half acre, an acre of land. Mm-hmm.

And it's not necessarily good land, but you really have to just eke out a living on that. And it's often peaty soil, which is great in the winter. You cut the peat, dry it, and you've got heat. But it's not great for growing anything. So the people were poor. And the average Scotsman, I think this is an interesting fact,

Just prior to the Reformation, the average Scotsman made his living by being a mercenary. That was all that they could do. They would go off to Europe and they'd fight in other people's wars for money.

And that was how they made a living. And of course, that meant family life was completely disintegrated because dads would go and die. And those that didn't die, they were away. You know, and then young boys grew up with no men in the home. You can just imagine. So it was a dark little country spiritually and economically, a sad little place. And just incredible how God chose to take such a backwater place.

and turn it into a powerhouse for gospel truth. Yeah, there's so much we don't know, and I'm so glad to have you join us today to talk about these things. In this culture, then, there is a monarch, and it's Mary, Queen of Scots, who

she came to the throne as a baby, didn't she? Yeah. So actually, she was later, if you know what I mean. She comes when Knox is at his pinnacle. Prior to her was her mother, and we call her Mary of Guise.

It looks like guys, G-U-I-S-E. So most English speakers say Mary of Guys, but Mary of Geese is the, well, I was taught that's the proper pronunciation. So I just do what I'm told, you know? Yeah. And this has nothing to do with English monarchy at all. No, no. This is, this is, so back in this day, we're talking now early 16th century, you know, that when Martin Luther was nailing the thesis to the door in Wittenberg Cathedral in Germany, um,

Scotland and England were absolutely at odds with one another. And Scotland's alliance was with France, because England had become quite quickly and soon after 1517, England started to embrace Reformation principles through Henry VIII.

but Scotland made an alliance with France and we still call that in Scotland the old alliance and it was really in order to sustain the Catholic Church against what was happening in England under Henry VIII. So prior to Mary Queen of Scots we had Mary of Guise and then when Knox is

back to Scotland and there's a lot that we could talk about happens before he comes back to Scotland as an older man really he must have been about oh in his late 40s the time he comes back to Scotland then Mary Queen of Scots arrives and one of the most interesting things

rivalries begins it's actually fascinating if you want we can talk about that in a wee minute it's a brilliant rivalry there was a dramatic change in scotland then largely because of knox there must have been others as well though it it really um it really took the place of the catholic church didn't it it over overcame catholicism yeah so it's interesting i grew up to

to hear that Scotland was called the mother of the Reformation. So as a little boy, I was, you know, I thought of Scotland as the mother of the Reformation. Then as I started reading, I discovered, hold on a wee minute, it was Germany and then it was Switzerland and then it was Scotland. Why are we the mother of the Reformation? And

My understanding is that Scotland was given that title, if you like, because of the way that the whole country embraced the gospel. As opposed to in Switzerland, it was cantons and cities. In Germany, it was regions and cities. This was a unique situation where a whole nation turned around

And actually, the gospel was embraced, the Bible was given a place of respect and authority, and the Catholic Church was largely diminished. So the changes were massive. So much so that what then grew out of the Reformation was called the Scottish Enlightenment. And it was the principles of the Scottish Enlightenment that the founding fathers of this country

looked to and drew from and issues such as capitalism, even things like healthcare, a philosophy that would advance scientific discovery and promotion, all of these things, and especially the idea of the separation of church and state.

That all came from the Scottish Enlightenment that was the product and society of the Reformation. So Scotland, from being a little backwater with illiteracy abounding, it became a hub and really the birthplace of the American idea in essence. We'll continue this conversation with Pastor Robert Elliott about John Knox and the Scottish Reformation coming up in a moment.

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My guest is Pastor Robert Elliott. Robert is pastor of Reformed Baptist Church in Riverside, California. I have a friend who's actually, I think, on staff of the church there, Troy. He's one of my fellow pastors. Yeah. So I'm grateful for Troy introducing us, but I wanted to contact you because it's Reformation time and an opportunity for us to not neglect the heritage that we have as Protestants. And it stands, of course, on the shoulders of people like John Knox. So let's go back to Knox for a moment. Sure.

He made his way from Geneva back to Scotland, and really, over the years, things began to change. But then Mary Queen of Scots never really accepted the Protestant religion, did she? She remained Catholic. Yes, she did. She was a very bold young lady, you know, bold.

The Protestants in Scotland caricature her and the Catholics in Scotland caricature John Knox. And I'm sure that somewhere the truth is in the middle. But, you know, she was nevertheless a confident young woman who had this history and the idea that the monarch was the supreme being and that there was God.

and then the monarch, and then everybody else under them. And John Knox obviously understood that very differently. And he lived a mile from her, literally up the hill. And regularly he would be invited down in her mind to be chastised

and to be brought, you know, to toe the line. But in John Knox's mind, it was just an opportunity to preach the gospel. Yeah, he wasn't about to cave in, was he? No.

For sure, bro. And the records of their conversation, I used to have it memorized. There was different seasons and different conversations they had that I could quote back in the day. I forget it now mostly because I'm getting old. But she would basically be pleading with him that the church is under her authority. And he would point out, look,

just as the Jews knew truth but crucified Christ, so those who say they know truth today can still be crucifying Christ. And she would say things like, are you saying that you would encourage the people to disobey me, the monarch? And he would say, look, if

children are being killed and abused by their father. It's right for them to hold their father and to imprison him. And just as that's right, so it's right for the people who are being killed and abused by a monarch to resist the monarch. And she would go into fits of tears. That didn't go over well at all. She'd never heard this before. This was unheard of ideas. Americans thought

talk this way all the time now, you know, and they think it's the way it's always been. But when Knox would speak that way, it would literally blow her mind and she would be stunned in tears and silence, you know.

So in John Knox, we have an example of boldness for the gospel, don't we? Is that how you would characterize him? I would characterize him that way, yes. Tell me more about him. I would say this, that it would probably be better for us to think of Knox as a man who was afraid before we think of him as a man who was bold. Now, what do I mean by that? He was a man filled with a sense of the fear of God. Now, a healthy fear.

Not the kind of fear that causes one to run away and hide, but the sort of fear that causes one to realize, look, this is God and he has spoken. And it matters not then what other people have said and what other people expect. So John Knox was motivated to boldness.

out of a genuine fear that he honor and reverence and give God his place. So yes, bold, but not cocky. Yeah, they portray him as arrogant because they don't understand it. But when you read his sermons, Banner of Truth recently published the works of John Knox, it's six volumes.

I wouldn't recommend everybody to get it because a lot is in old Scots, and I can hardly even read it. Yeah, they'd be an adventure, right? It really is. It's hard going. But you really get a sense of a man who humbly wanted to honor the Lord and submit to his word. And so God put him in a position where he was leading a movement that brought him into contact with the monarch. And in that sense, he became bold and he was fearless. Yeah.

So bring us to the end of his days. What was that like for John Knox? Well, interestingly, we think of John Knox as a man who ministered in Scotland, right? The truth of the matter is he was only in Scotland in his younger days when he was a Roman Catholic, when he was a new convert. And as a new convert, he became a bodyguard to George Wishart, who was a reformer prior to him.

But when Knox got saved and then he entered into the ministry, it was in St Andrew's Castle and almost around that same time Cardinal Beaton, the Catholic Cardinal who was a very corrupt man, he was murdered by the men of St Andrew's Castle and the French came and took John Knox away as a galley slave. So here he is as an adult man in his 40s and he's a galley slave for 18 months.

And he's getting treated like dirt. You know, he was the engine below deck that was powering the French galley ship. Sure. And he was barely fed. He was sick and he battled on. He did that for 18 months.

He refused to bow to the idols. There's a story of a little image of Mary being put before him and he's told to kiss it. And he took it, threw it into the sea, and he said, she's light enough, let the lady learn to swim and save herself. And then he would say that after doing that, no Scotsman ever again was asked to reverence the idols. So he lived in that context for 18 months.

He then came back to Scotland, but really it was England. I was in the very north of England, but he had a lot of relationships just across the border. And then he went down to London and he spent some time in London as one of the chaplains for King Edward VI under the leadership of Archbishop Thomas Cranmer.

And then he had to flee England, but not back to Scotland. This is why he went to France and then Germany and then Geneva, where he would be with Calvin. And all of that was because Bloody Mary came to the throne in England, Mary Tudor. And she's called Bloody Mary because she

multitudes were martyred under her. She was a Roman Catholic and she killed many, many of the reformers, burned them, especially in London. So Knox is basically, let me see, he's about, it's 1559 before he actually gets back to Scotland. And he only has 13 years now left. Of course, he didn't know that.

but his last 13 years of his life were the years that we speak about when we hear about Knox saying, give me Scotland or I die. When we hear about Knox saying that every parish should have a church and a school, we would say a crick and a school, every parish. Hence the illiteracies turned around.

the ignorance, the superstition is pushed aside and Scotland in that 13-year period was radically transformed and then the foundations were laid for later reformers and the church. And he also during that 13 years established the Presbyterian Church

There's a little chapel in the heart of Edinburgh called the Magdalene Chapel, and you can go in there, and that's where the first presbytery of the Presbyterian Church ever took place, and John Knox was there. So he did a lot in 13 years. Between his lively debates with Mary and other things, he managed to accomplish an awful lot in Scotland over those last 13 years. Amazing story. Amazing man.

How should we be observing Reformation Day in our churches now? The heart of the Reformation was, you know, back to the Bible. As much as I would like people to talk about Martin Luther and John Knox, you know, and Ulrich Zwingli and the other reformers, which I think historically, if you want your kids to have a rounded education, introduce them to these men and the influences they had.

So yeah, that's nice, that's good, that's profitable, but we actually need the heart of the message once again. You know, we can't look at these things historically and think, well, that's all quaint and interesting. We look at it and say, oh no, we're in trouble. The word of God has been forsaken. Men are putting their opinions and their own thoughts before biblical truth.

And if the church to observe the Reformation would resolve to get back to the Bible, that would be the healthiest thing that we could do on Reformation Sunday. Our guest has been Pastor Robert Elliott of the Reformed Baptist Church located in Riverside, California. I so appreciate his filling us in on some of the details of John Knox's life and the Reformation, specifically as it affected Scotland.

This interview will be archived along with all of our past programs at FirstPersonInterview.com.

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