Maddow: What sets us apart as a country is fragile and worth fighting to protect 42:22

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Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get new episodes of Morning Joe and the Rachel Maddow Show ad-free. Plus, ad-free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra, Bagman, and Deja News.

And now all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content, including how to win 2024 prosecuting Donald Trump. Why is this happening? And more subscribe to MSNBC premium on Apple podcasts. Really good to have you here. So have you ever been asked to dog sit or cat sit for a friend while they are away or to plant sit even to water your friend's plants?

Are you the person who's been given the spare key to your neighbor's apartment in case of emergency? I feel like maybe this was different in different eras and for different generations, but I feel like in our lives, in our time, there aren't that many formal signs in life. There aren't that many formal bits of feedback that can tell you

If you're doing okay, things that can tell you whether the people who know you don't just like you, they trust you. They think you are an honorable person.

I mean, there are a few formal things like that. You know, you can be like voted captain of a team in school sports or something. You can be chosen by your peers for some kind of responsibility. Maybe you get asked to be on the select board in your town or you get asked to be on the bargaining unit at your job or something like that. And there are some sort of formal things that come across, but more often it's

these not formal, small, personal things, being asked by your neighbor or your friend to dog sit, being entrusted with that, being given that spare key by your neighbor. Maybe it dawns on you that as your family members are making decisions about where they're going to live, you find that members of your family are moving to be closer to where you live. And that's because they think you're solid, that you can be counted on.

It can also be the really humbling things, the more serious stuff, like somebody asking you to be their child's godparent, somebody asking you to be the executor of their will. There are things like this in life, large things and small things, that I think of as midlife checkups, signs of whether in the eyes of your peers and your loved ones, you're seen as somebody who's doing okay, doing things right.

Honorable, trustworthy, you can be counted on. If you don't have anything like that in your life, I hope you someday do. I hope every one of us someday is listed as the in case of emergency contact in someone else's phone. Amen. Let us all be that for somebody someday. At the level of us as a country, though, not just as individuals.

Today's news brought maybe the best test I had ever seen, the starkest test I had ever seen of whether a country is doing things right in the eyes of the people who know it best. Today, in a surprise, the United States and Iran exchanged prisoners.

Five Americans who have been unjustly held in Iran, basically as hostages. They were released from prison today. They were flown to Qatar and then they were quickly flown on toward the United States where they are being reunited with their families. These are five Iranian Americans, one of whom was the longest held American in Iran since 1979. He was held in Iran for eight years.

In the Avin prison there, the notorious Avin prison, at least two of the other Iranian Americans who were released today were held in Iran for five years. These people have been held effectively as hostages by the Iranian government for so much time. But the Biden administration negotiated to get them free. And today, in a surprise, these five Americans flew out of Iran. They flew to Qatar immediately and then on to the United States.

Now, as part of this negotiation, the U.S. government also agreed to free five Iranians and Iranian Americans who were being held here, people who were charged or convicted with various crimes here. And these were mostly related to alleged or proven violations of the sanctions that our government has against Iran. But this was basically the swap. Five Americans held in Iran coming home here.

Five Iranians or Iranian-Americans who are being held here freed to go back to Iran. It is telling. It is very telling.

that when the five people who were imprisoned in Iran were freed in Iran, they all did the same thing. They all hightailed it out of Iran immediately. They left that country. They stopped in Qatar briefly and they came back to the United States, all five of them. But you look at the five on the other side of the deal, you look at the five people who were freed here in the United States, the ends do not look the same. At least one and possibly two of the men who were freed here today in this deal with Iran are not

Going back to Iran, they are going to stay in America. One told news organizations today, another Iranian official told news organizations today that they're going to stay in America. Thanks. No plans to leave here for Iran. Are you crazy?

And I feel like this is an important sort of signal moment for us as a country, just as it is a sign of a life well lived if someone asks you to water their plants while they are gone, right? Somebody entrusts you with their house key in case of emergency. So too,

Is it a sign that you're doing something right as a country when even the people who you free from prison decide they'd rather stay here in this country than go back to the country that negotiated for their freedom? No, I'd rather stay here in this country even though you just brought federal criminal charges against me. It is still nicer here than there, even though that's the country that traded for me.

I'll stay here. I mean, talk whatever trash you want to about the United States of America. Truly feel free. It is literally a free country. But clearly we are doing something right. Right. Thank you, Iran, for the high stakes international negotiations on my behalf that freed me to leave America where I am being criminally prosecuted. Also, I would prefer to stay in America despite all of that. See you never. Think about what that says about us as a country.

We're close to three dozen American hostages that the Biden administration has now successfully brought home from various despotic countries around the world. Republicans are criticizing President Biden, criticizing the Biden administration for getting these Americans home today from Iran. But you know what?

These Americans are on their way home tonight from Iran. They are no longer in the notorious Avin prison where they have been languishing for five years, eight years without hope. These Americans are coming home. And yes, Republicans are criticizing President Biden for getting them home. Republicans also criticize President Biden for getting Brittany Griner home.

Out of Russia after the government there took her hostage as well. Frankly, I look forward to the day when we get to hear all the Republican criticism about President Biden getting Evan Gershkovich home from Russia as well. The Wall Street Journal reporter who's being held hostage in Moscow still as we speak. Hopefully the day that he comes home will arrive soon, too. And inevitably, Republicans will be up in arms about it when it happens. But it will nevertheless be a great day with this dramatic change.

And joyful news today about these long-held American hostages being released from prison in Iran, released and flown home to the United States. And at least one, if not two, of the five Iranians released here as part of the deal, deciding that he'll nevertheless stay here in this country. Thanks very much.

With President Biden in New York for the UN General Assembly, where he's going to make a big speech tomorrow. With all that going on, we've got America's ambassador to the United Nations, the estimable Linda Thomas-Greenfield here tonight with us on set for the interview. I'm very much looking forward to that conversation in just a moment. But that dynamic that I'm describing at work in the news today, that indication that

You know, well, for all our faults, we must be doing something right. If even the people who other countries spring from our prisons through diplomatic negotiations nevertheless want to stay here after they are sprung. I feel like that dynamic is it's also a reminder that what we do have in this country is unique and it's not inevitable. And what sets us apart as a country is losable. It's fragile. It needs protecting.

And you can see that in the other headlines. In today's news headline, threats mount against prosecutors and FBI agents working on Hunter Biden probe. Prosecutors and FBI agents involved in the Hunter Biden investigation have been the targets of threats and harassment, according to government officials and congressional testimony obtained by NBC News.

Quote, it's part of a dramatic uptick in threats against FBI agents that has coincided with attacks on the FBI and the Justice Department by congressional Republicans and former President Donald Trump. The threats have prompted the FBI to create a standalone unit to investigate and mitigate them, according to previously unreleased congressional testimony. There's another one. Headline, FBI investigating violent threats against officials in Fulton County, Georgia.

In the saga of the multiple criminal trials that are ahead for former president and Republican leading congressional presidential candidate Donald Trump, one major thing we're waiting on for, we're waiting on right now could happen at any time.

is news on whether the federal judge overseeing Trump's case in D.C., the one about him trying to overturn the election, will that judge grant the prosecutor's request for an order that restricts the kinds of statements that Trump can make about that trial so as to not prejudice the jury pool, so as not to intimidate witnesses?

It's very striking. We're waiting on that order for the judge right now. But, you know, in in in their request for that order from the judge, prosecutors had to give examples to the court of some of the times that Trump's overheated public statements have led his followers to commit violence or to threaten violence on his behalf. They included in their court filing the recent arrest of a Trump supporter in Texas who called the chambers of the federal judge who was overseeing that trial and threatened to kill the judge.

Because Trump is on trial in her courtroom. I mean, all of these things, the court filing about the potential gag order, the threats to Fulton County officials, the threats to the FBI itself. I mean, these are all just in the past few days. But but but but these headlines are just now the ambient mood of public service in in the Trump era of Republican politics.

It's Fulton County officials being threatened. It's the Fulton County sheriff having to investigate that. Then it's the Fulton County sheriff being threatened and the FBI having to investigate that. Then it's the FBI being threatened, FBI officials and FBI agents themselves being threatened and the FBI having to investigate that.

It's the judge in one of the Trump cases being threatened. It's another judge in another one of the Trump cases being threatened. It's the grand jurors in one of the Trump cases being threatened. It's the prosecutor in one Trump case being threatened. It's the prosecutor in another Trump case being threatened. It's a federal prosecutor in the Hunter Biden investigation getting, quote, such a barrage of credible threats that she had to seek security help from the U.S. Marshals Service.

It's public health workers being threatened and harassed. It's the head of the CDC getting death threats. The head of the CDC. It's the staff of the National Archives being threatened. Sure, why not? Quote, the National Archives.

has been hit with a wave of threats since the FBI retrieved classified records from Trump's Mar-a-Lago club. It's the IRS being threatened. Quote, IRS launches safety review after right-wing threats. Republicans in Congress repeating baseless claims long made by extremists, experts say, potentially puts federal workers in danger. It's more than a dozen people now federally criminally charged with making threats to election workers all over the country.

Now it's Republican U.S. Senator, former Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney, telling his biographer about serving members of Congress in both the House and the Senate, confiding in him that they have taken specific votes in Congress that benefited Trump specifically because they were afraid for their physical safety if they did not. They would have voted in a way not beneficial to Trump, but they felt physically threatened. And so they voted in a way beneficial to Trump.

Think of your personal safety. Think of your children. Why put your wife and children at risk? If public life, public service, even just regular citizen participation in regular politics is suffused with threats of violence now, one of the things that for sure does is it forces regular people out of politics and out of public service.

Right. It is common sense. If politics and public service are being made into something that is quite literally dangerous, then in the normal course of events, normal people will steer clear. Right. That's part of why there's a we have a protected, you know,

right, to associate with others, even for political purposes in this country, right? You ought to be able to gather with others. You ought to be able to assemble. You have the right to assemble peaceably to seek the redress of grievances. Why do we have a right to peaceably assemble? So that people can assemble peaceably. So that you don't feel like trying to redress your grievances with the government is something that's going to expose you to physical danger, either from the government or from anyone else.

We protect protesters. We protect people assembling peaceably to say their peace so that we can all peacefully say our peace. So that we will, so our government will be accountable to us, so our government will continue to adapt to the needs and the wants and the voice of the people. What we have now is an atmosphere of ultra right-wing political violence and threat.

which doesn't only affect the individual politicians and civil servants and poll workers and law enforcement officials who are being directly targeted by Trump supporters. It has a systemic effect, too, right? Systemically over time, it thins out, it hollows out the public sphere and government. So it's no longer for anybody. It's only for the brave and the militant.

and those who themselves are willing to either abide threats of violence or issue them themselves. And that is not the kind of democracy we are. That is not what we are supposed to be. We are supposed to have a rollicking free press. We are supposed to have the constitutionally protected freedom to associate, freedom to assemble, including for political reasons, for redress of grievances from the government.

We are supposed to have a vibrant, rollicking civil society. We're supposed to have no barrier to entry, participatory democracy at every level, from student government to school board to city hall to your locally elected dog catcher and alderman and state rep and president. If participation in public life at every level instead is cowed by people wielding guns and

and threats of mob violence and death threats and intimidation of witnesses and the doxing of grand jurors and all the rest of it, then at a fundamental level, we are just doing it wrong. We are doing it, in fact, like way too much of the rest of the world does it. And the fact that we haven't been that, the fact that we have been different, the fact that we have been a place where government is by and for the people is at least until now why so much of the world has been aspiring to come here when they can.

Last week, we saw Republicans in the state of Wisconsin fire the widely praised technocratic, nonpartisan administrator of elections in that crucial swing state after she refused to help Wisconsin Republicans muddle or overturn the results of that state's presidential election in 2020.

Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature were told by the attorney general of the state, they were told by their own lawyers in the legislature that they do not have the authority to fire this election official. But they went ahead and they are trying to do it anyway. This week, we'll see Republicans in the crucial swing state of North Carolina.

Try to do effectively the same thing as North Carolina Republicans this week are teeing up a vote to take over elections administration in that state, too. They have been trying to do this in North Carolina, but they have been blocked so far by voters in a in a clear state referendum. Also, multiple court rulings are standing in their way, too. But this week, they're apparently ready to go for it again to take over the administration administration.

of elections in that swing state. Because heaven forbid we hold on to free and fair, technocratically sound and boring election administration in this country. Real small d democracy. Heaven forbid we hold on to that when instead we could trade it in for garbage, untrusted elections like everybody else has in so many parts of the rest of the world, which again is one of the things that sends good people of all those other countries in the world fleeing to us when they can.

Because for so long, we've done it better. Because our Constitution has led us to do it better. We have a good and rare thing going in this country. A republic, if we can keep it. Doesn't mean we don't have our problems. We have a good system for fixing our problems. We are listed as the in-case-of-emergency contact in the phone of the whole rest of the world. Which is something to be proud of. And it is something to fight hard to protect.

Our American ambassador to the United Nations joins us live here next. Stay with us. There are some football feelings you can only get with BetMGM Sportsbook. That's right. Not just the highs, the ohs, or the no, no, no's. It's the feeling that comes with being taken care of every down of the football season. The feeling that comes with getting MGM rewards benefits or earning bonus bets.

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It is rare on a Monday that I can pretty confidently tell you what Tuesday's news is going to consist of. But Dollars to Donuts says at least some of tomorrow's news is going to be about President Biden addressing the United Nations tomorrow morning, as well as President Zelensky from Ukraine, also expected to address the United Nations live and in person tomorrow. They are both here because this is the week of the United Nations General Assembly. Joining us now for the interview is America's ambassador to the United Nations,

Linda Thomas-Greenfield, now ambassador. It's really nice to see you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. I know if I know one thing about the United Nations General Assembly being here this week, it's that you do not have time to be here right now talking to me. I have time to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Let me ask you first about the dramatic prisoner swap today. Five Americans who had long been held prisoner in Iran,

Being freed, they are on their way home as we speak. Five Iranians, Iranian-Americans who were either federally charged or already in custody here in the United States swapped for them. I wanted to ask you about a statement made by one of the Americans who was freed today who described this as incredible gratitude of being freed.

But he said this.

We must channel the pain of the victims of this wickedness into the kinds of measures that will upend the cost-benefit calculations of Tehran's foul business. If we keep this venal path to profit free of risk and toll for them, this vile regime will keep treading on it again and again and again. Even as he's being freed, he's saying this system where countries like Iran take American hostages effectively for profit, financial profit, diplomatic profit, we have to stop that incentive.

What's your response to that? There's no profit that the Iranians got from this deal. We released five unfairly held American citizens and brought them home to their families. And what the Iranians got were...

Five of their citizens who we insured were held accountable for what they did. And as I heard from your report, one or two of them don't want to go home. So they have to explain that as well. But this was about the Americans who were released and unfairly held. And I know that they are rejoicing with their families tonight.

There are other Americans being held elsewhere, such as in Russia, Evan Gershkowitz, Paul Whelan, who we're working around the clock to get released and brought home to their families as well. I feel like it is a it tells us something important about regimes like Iran and Russia that however much they swagger and however much they try to use other means.

means to display themselves in the world as if they carry weight and have influence and are rich and powerful, they're effectively having to resort to these criminal, desperate tactics of taking hostages, preferably American hostages whenever they can, in order to try to get concessions out of us and out of other countries. Is there some sort of

regime that the United States could lead, some sort of compact the United States could lead to further disincentivize rogue countries like that from going plucking off individual Americans for this type of reason. You know, we certainly work in the United Nations with our partners, with other allies to make it as

difficult as possible for these countries to hold them accountable at every opportunity we can hold them accountable in every forum where we can call them out for their bad deeds. This is something that is a core value for us in working in the United Nations, working with partners to hold countries like Iran accountable. It's not easy.

Because we're dealing with individuals who really have no heart and don't really care. But we've had some success. And I think most recently kicking Iran off the Commission on the Status of Women was

when they killed Amini was a huge, huge deal. And I don't think they expected that they would get that kind of reaction. We've seen leaders like Vladimir Putin in particular in Russia trying to

recast the idea of international institutions and international alliances. So there's some sort of alternative to the world, right? We've got the United Nations, we've got the American led Western world. And they're trying to create what they say is a multipolar world that doesn't include the United States that isn't based around international rules-based institutions like the United Nations. And instead alliance based on alliances of convenience among dictators. And it sounds pitiful and it sounds doomed to failure, but

Until you take a wider lens and you realize that actually right-wing authoritarian governments...

are on the rise around the world, including in some old democracies that you think would be immune to this sort of thing. I mean, President Biden has talked about the choice between democracy and autocracy as being the guiding international light, sort of guiding global light of what he's doing as president. Do you see it the same way? I do. And we do have to really ramp up our efforts

to support democracies, because we know that when democracies succeed, they bring about changes in the lives of their people. And Russia knows that. And that's why they are doing everything possible to damage democracies around the world. But we in our

Recently, we had a meeting of community of democracies, and we were able to say to the world that democracies do work. Democracies do deliver to their people. We know that there are attacks on democracy today. We've seen coups happening in Africa recently, and we have seen autocratic governments attack

try to do everything possible not to engage with the world. But we can't just say, oh, it's OK. They they they're doing this. They're winning. We have to keep fighting. And that's exactly what the administration is doing, is what I'm doing every day in the United Nations.

When you take America's case to the world, which is literally your job at the United Nations, one of the things that has changed that you sort of have on your plate, or at least that you need to account for in the way you represent America to the world, that no other U.N. ambassador has ever had to deal with,

is the fact that for the first time, we have a former president facing criminal charges. He happens to also be the leading Republican contender for the next Republican presidential nomination. Lots of countries have charged or locked up former presidents, former prime ministers. It's not that unusual in most parts of the world. It's very unusual. It is unprecedented here. I wonder how that factors into...

your job of talking to the rest of the world about the values of democracy and about the rule of law and about accountability. Look, there is no question to people around the world that our democracy is strong.

But it is under attack and we have to defend that democracy every way we can. When I arrived in New York in 2021, I was embraced by countries around the world. I was embraced by friends as well as competitors. They were happy to see the United States back at the table. They've asked me over and over again, can we feel confident that you're going to stay?

at the table. And I can't give them that confidence other than to say that our country is strong and our country will always survive, that we've been tested before, we survived a civil war, and our country continues to thrive. We're not a perfect democracy by any means. We're constantly self-correcting. We acknowledge our faults, but we

But we survive and we will continue to do that. Our guest is Linda Thomas-Greenfield. She's America's ambassador to the United Nations. We have to take a quick break. When we come back, I'm going to ask you a thorny question that you are not going to want to answer. That's the only thing I can promise you about it. I know how to not answer. I know. The world's most diplomatic people are the world's most difficult interviews. We'll be right back with our U.N. ambassador, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, right after this. Stay with us.

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Back with us now for the interview is Linda Thomas-Greenfield. She is the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. This is the week of the United Nations General Assembly. Along with President Biden, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is going to be speaking with the U.N. General Assembly this week. I think they're both speaking tomorrow. I know the president is speaking tomorrow. I also expect that President Biden and President Zelensky will meet and continue their talks in person on this trip.

have to ask you about something that I realize is a thorny sort of thing, which is that one of the things we've learned in the news in the past week or so is that as America is supporting Ukraine in its war to defend itself against Russia, a single American citizen has business interests of such a type that he has been able as an individual to make decisions to constrain the

Ukraine's military from carrying out operations against Russia. And I'm talking, of course, about Elon Musk. It is it's I'm sure this is not an unprecedented thing in American history. But in Mr. Musk's case, we've got somebody who is an American businessman who effectively has foreign policy sway.

on his own and who, for whatever reason, has effectively decided to conduct competing and I would say oppositional foreign policy to the United States, a country of which he is a citizen. Who does President Zelensky come to to complain about that? I mean, you are the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, but Mr. Musk appears to be competing with his own country in terms of what his foreign policy is. And he has the technological resources to do it in a materially significant way.

You know, I would assume that President Zelensky will raise that with the United States. And having served as an ambassador overseas and served here, I do have countries come to me to complain sometimes about the actions of an American company in their country.

And we do try to address those issues when they're brought they're brought to our attention. So I assume if if President Zelensky has a complaint, he will he will bring that to us if he hasn't already. He hasn't brought it to me.

With the kind of technology that we're talking about here, this Starlink technology linked to Mr. Musk's SpaceX company is an integral, effectively information supply line for Ukrainian military forces, an irreplaceable asset for them. And that's bad in one sense. We now know because the United Nations, the United States as a government,

effectively can't make a decision as to how that resource should be deployed to help or hurt our ally in that conflict. It's instead being made by a business, which is purportedly an American business, but not behaving in a way that is consistent with America's stated interests. What do you...

What are the responsibilities of the American government toward American businesses that are messing with American foreign policy? You know, we do two things working with American companies overseas. We support American companies in their efforts to work overseas, but we also establish the

certain parameters for how American companies operate. This is a situation that I can't comment on specifically. I don't know any of the details of this, but I do expect that President Zelensky will raise it and it will be brought to the attention of others to address.

I knew you were going to avoid answering that question. I knew I could tell you before before I asked it, because I know that you can't answer it in the specific. But I find it to be a confounding situation just as an observer and as an American. Another situation that is confounding and concerning is one that the Biden administration has expressed very sharp concern about, which is a new law in Uganda, which is being called the kill the gays law.

which establishes, in fact, the death penalty for something they call aggravated homosexuality. They've already started to arrest people under this law. They're threatening to kill people just for being gay. The Biden administration has been very sharply critical of this. The Obama administration was very sharply critical of this in 2013 and 2014 when the Ugandan government tried it the first time around.

But there are a couple of ways in which U.S. fingerprints are actually on this horrific policy. One is that American right wing evangelical activists have encouraged the Ugandan government to do this. The other is that U.S. funds make up a significant portion of the Ugandan government's operating expenses, specifically the massive assistance we give them through the PEPFAR program to contradict the effects of HIV and AIDS in that country.

PEPFAR is, of course, a very successful program. And I think all sort of righteous people want to defend it in terms of how many lives it saved around the world. But I keep hearing... 25 million. I mean, it's an astonishingly effective American program, perhaps one of the most life-saving American interventions in the world ever. And I keep hearing from activists who are trying to keep the gay community from being

killed off by their government in Uganda, that PEPFAR funds are specifically being routed through the Ugandan government in a way that empowers and rewards the ministries and the individual ministers who are most responsible in Uganda for that policy. And given how strongly the administration feels about this, isn't there a way

That that funding could be directed so that it's still solving the problem in Uganda, but it is not making the problem worse for that sexual minority that is facing really, really serious, serious risk.

You know, I was asked this question by Lawrence O'Donnell when I was on his show the last time after you spoke to him. And let me just start out by saying that this law is horrific. And we've made very clear in no uncertain terms to the Ugandan government that it is unacceptable.

And we are doing everything in our power to support the LGBTQ community in Uganda to ensure their safety and to ensure that they are not

damaged by this law. And we do know that at least one individual has recently been arrested and charged and is in the process of being tried. And because it's a capital offense, it's being held in prison awaiting trial. It is a life-threatening situation. So we are looking at, and I said this before, how we can continue to provide the good

support that PEPFAR provides directly to individuals to help save their lives without putting that funding through the Ugandan government or through individuals in the Ugandan government who are responsible for implementing this law. It's a huge dilemma, but we have to find a way to do that. And we have to find a way to hold those accountable who are

basically violating the human rights of the LGBTQ community in Uganda. We engage with them on a regular basis. I was involved with the situation during the 2013-2014 period during the Obama administration when I was assistant secretary for Africa, and we were successful in getting the government to

to stop moving forward on the law. We failed on that this time around, but we're continuing to engage the LGBTQ community on how we can help them and also to put pressure on the Ugandan government to push back and urge them not to enforce this horrific law.

Neighboring countries, of course, watching closely to see what happens in Uganda, to see if they should also pursue legislation like this, raising the stakes even further. Linda Thomas-Greenfield, Madam Ambassador, our Ambassador to the United Nations, busiest woman in New York this week. Thank you so much for your time. It's an honor to have this much time with you. Thank you very much. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

So this is the headline at ABC News tonight. Trump wrote to-do lists for assistant on White House documents marked classified. It's like somebody did a Mad Libs of hilarious nightmare headlines now newly plausible because Trump. Trump wrote to-do lists for his assistant on classified documents.

Seriously, what ABC News is reporting tonight is as straightforward and nutty as that sounds. Now, NBC has not matched this reporting. This is not our story. It is ABC's. But ABC is citing multiple sources in this report that Trump's former White House executive assistant has told federal investigators that when he left office, when she was working for him at his Florida golf club thing, that he was

Trump was in the habit of grabbing any old classified document he had laying around and using those documents as essentially a scrap pad to scribble out to-do lists for her. Documents that had obvious classified markings on them. Now, Trump, of course, has been indicted over the allegation that he had all those classified documents laying around in the first place when he should not have.

Special counsel Jack Smith has charged him with 40 felony criminal counts, alleging that Trump illegally took classified material from the White House, then lied to the government about having it, then tried to hide the material from federal investigators. Literally, he hid it by moving boxes of documents from room to room at his golf club in the hopes that nobody would find these things. It is in some ways the most simple, straightforward and easily digestible of the four criminal indictments that are currently pending against the former president.

The import of this reporting today from ABC News, which, again, has not been verified by NBC News, is not so much that former President Trump allegedly likes to use classified documents as as he should should not even have as things that he shouldn't even have his scrap paper. It's that he he handed these classified documents with his scribbles to his assistant and then she handed them over to the FBI.

That assistant no longer works for Trump. It has previously been reported that she is cooperating with special counsel's investigation. If that is the case, if she is cooperating, that has implications not just for the classified documents case, but also for the January 6th case as well for Trump's federal indictment for trying to overturn the 2020 election.

The same assistant pops up in that indictment, too. She was Trump's assistant when he was president as well. She sat right outside the Oval Office fielding emails and calls for him, including some related to the various schemes to try to overturn the election. When it comes to that case, if there is a cooperator involved,

who is his executive assistant, that's important. There's also something else that we're newly keeping an eye on. As recently as a couple of weeks ago, we had seen reporting that special counsel Jack Smith was still investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election, that even a month after indicting Trump, a federal grand jury was still working on that case, still interviewing new witnesses. Now, that grand jury was set to expire this past Friday, Friday last week.

But if Mr. Smith wanted to extend it, he could have tried to do so. We don't know whether he did. So that is yet another thing to keep in mind and keep an eye on with the January 6th case right now. All eyes are on the D.C. courthouse where the grand jury has been meeting to see if they will be back this week. Literally, reporters are out watching the courthouse to see if they can see the grand jurors walk in, because that's the only way we'll know if the grand jury has been extended or if they have, in fact, been wrapped up.

The grand jury has been meeting Tuesdays and Thursdays, which means eyes open on that tomorrow. We could know as soon as tomorrow whether Jack Smith extended their stay, whether they are still at it, whether further indictments may be coming. Watch this space.

One note before I go tonight. A week from tonight, next Monday, I've got a big interview. It's former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson. She's going to be here a week from tonight, Monday night next week. It's going to be her first live interview since she testified publicly before the January 6th investigation in Congress last summer.

Cassidy Hutchinson, you will remember, was the star witness for that investigation. She described the pressure she came under to not testify, to protect Trump, to not tell what she knew. But you will recall how damning her testimony was about the events of January 6th itself. Cassidy Hutchinson has a new book that is about to come out. She's going to be here for her first live interview to talk about it a week from tonight, next Monday, 9 o'clock. I will see you then.

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