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Hey everyone, it's Reed. Before we get started, I just want to reiterate something I said on a recent episode. This is a campaign about values. This is a fight about values. Who are we as a people? Who are we as a nation? Who are we as individuals? I know that if you're listening to my voice, you're on the right side of history and you're on the side of good.
Please go to LincolnProject.us and sign up to join us today. Be part of the fight. Get in the arena with us, gang. The work that we will do in the next seven plus months will change the future of America and the future of the world, and we'll make sure that our kids and grandkids have a country they can be proud of, not one they're afraid of. And now, on with the show.
Welcome back to The Lincoln Project. I'm your host, Reed Galen. Today, I'm joined by author Arthur Goldwag. His brand new book is The Politics of Fear, The Peculiar Persistence of American Paranoia, and is available wherever fine books are sold. Gang, check it out. It is a great read. His previous titles include The New Hate, The New Hate, and The New Hate.
I'm so glad to be here.
There are many, many places to start here, but let's go back to even before the before times. You brought up two things that I did not expect I'd see in your book. Jamestown,
and the Salem witch trials. And the reason I want to bring those up is because it appears that despite everything else, all of the access to information, all of the human knowledge that's ever been compiled available in something as easy as like Wikipedia, that we have a long storied, I guess in some ways,
and ugly and strange history with the idea of the occult, the weirdness, there's something else out there controlling us. What is going on? Why is this in our literal national DNA?
Well, it's in everybody's DNA, but it's particularly in America's DNA because we're a nation of refugees, economic refugees, religious refugees. And at the time that the first pioneers landed in Jamestown, England was at war with Catholicism. And the reason I wrote about Jamestown in the book was because I discovered something I hadn't known. I had done a lot of research on the
roots of anti-Catholicism in America. But I just stumbled on an article, I think it was in The Atlantic, about this archaeological discovery in Jamestown. They found a grave that they hadn't known was there recently, like 10 years ago, and they did an MRI of
one of the coffins, or what was left of the coffin, and there was a Catholic reliquary. This guy was very likely a secret Catholic. And so at the very, very beginning of America, you have people in hiding, and you have other people assuming that these Catholics are representatives of a worldwide, secret, super-powerful, one-world organization.
And that's been in the back of Americans' minds ever since. It's been a while since mainstream people have been afraid of Catholics. There's still residual of this. And if you read evangelical literature closely, you can find it. If you read an
I don't know, the John Birch Society or whatever, but it shifted over time. People were afraid of masons in the 19th century. Then they discovered Jews. Then they discovered communists. Then the Jews were communists and vice versa. And then the Jews were communists. And there's always an element of truth in it too, in that it's a violent world.
And revolutions are really happening. The French Revolution comes right after the American Revolution, and the American Revolution is kind of a middle-class revolution. The French Revolution starts out that way, but it degenerates into terror, and Americans start worrying that it's coming here. And some people decide that Jefferson is in favor of that, and he's going to bring it here.
So, there was an Illuminati scare in the 1790s. People talk about the Illuminati now. There were two best-selling books that came out in the same year, in the 1790s, one by a Scottish writer, one by a French writer, that explained that all the revolutions in the world were the work of the Illuminati.
And even if you've never heard of either of these books, if you dip into conspiracy theory, you probably read them because people cut and paste. Conspiracy writers cut and paste. And those books are a constant source. You know, the one thing that I thought about, and I'm going to read a passage here in a second, is what you said about there's a little bit of truth. And I remember, I think it would have been the CPAC conference of maybe 2022 when Trump spoke publicly.
And we'll come back to him in earnest for a second. But it was a lot of the same stuff. But I said, you know, to me, it was interesting from an observational standpoint, but worrying from a political dynamic standpoint was there was just enough truth in enough of it. Right. Enough truth, enough times throughout the speech to be like, yeah, OK, well, maybe I don't agree with him, but he's got right about that. And then you say this.
You know, you quote another historian, Catherine Olmsted, that, quote, the U.S. government has brought many of its credibility problems on itself, thanks to its documented record of secrecy, overreach and excessive deference to wealth and corporate interests. When a government has proven itself to be as untrustworthy as ours has, when rightly or wrongly, so many of its citizens believe it has betrayed them. It's hardly surprising that demagogues will step in and take full advantage.
And the reason I bring up that particular passage, Arthur, is because I remember back in 2015 listening. For some reason, I heard two speeches back to back, one by Trump and one by Bernie Sanders. And if you didn't know that they were on theoretically opposite sides of a political spectrum, they could have been the same speech.
They were both speaking to the idea that government is big, it's run by these interests, and you're getting screwed. And to your point, and to Catherine Olmsted's point, in many cases, you're not wrong. You're certainly not wrong. We live under a system that has a lot of really brutal competition, and that means that there's winners and losers. And Bernie talks about the billionaire class.
What he's really talking about is not everybody wins. Not everybody wins. And Trump talks to the same people. He doesn't blame billionaires, but he implies that he's a different kind of billionaire.
People want to be saved, too. I mean, one of the things that I argue about, we have a very sophisticated system that was designed by very sophisticated people that were new to the Enlightenment because the Enlightenment was just happening. There were still lots of vestiges of medieval times, including kings that had real power.
Not everybody is ready for that. The idea of a savior figure comes back over and over again. And we don't have to start talking about Trump yet, but that's part of Trump's proposition is I am the one. You know, elect me and I'll wave my hands and this stuff will stop. The day I'm elected, it'll stop. And of course, it never does. No, of course not. Right. And you go back through some of the different cults.
especially around the UFO time, which I don't know, Arthur, I think I saw someplace recently that like 99 and a half percent of all the UFO sightings that occur in the world, some for some reason occur in the United States, right? Like nobody else sees UFOs, but we have numerous cults and other believers who believe, you know, that this time it's really happening. E.T. is really coming to see us, right? V was a documentary. It wasn't a show in the 80s. And so there's always this
higher power thing. And so let me ask you this. I mean, not to be too philosophical or religious about it, but does an absence of a populace that is largely churchgoing or had some grounding in a religious faith, is this where people untethered from that sort of communal aspect of life? Is this what happens or is this just part of being human?
I think it's part of being human. And I'm not anti-religion. I'm not a religious person myself, but I've written a lot about religion and I've studied religion. I have a lot of respect for it. And I'm not without superstitious beliefs of my own. I'm really not totally a materialist. But
Even the most enlightened religions have their fringes, have their extremes. The first book I ever wrote was about Jewish mysticism, and there's these very, very interesting figures, profound thinkers in many cases, deeply spiritual people. Many of them go mad. And when they go mad, they decide that, you know, I've been writing and reading about and anticipating the Messiah. Wait a minute, that's me.
And it happens over and over again. And I wrote this book called Conspiracies in Secret Societies. And one of the things that I started to see is that there's a connection between all of them. And there's a political connection.
Cult leaders and dictators do a lot of the same things. It's a difference of scale. Usually the cult is more intimate, but there is this grandiosity. And, you know, I'm not a social scientist. I'm not an anthropologist. But come on, we're primates and you observe primates and there are alpha primates and beta primates.
and they run around in packs, and they fight over sex and power and control. And again, this is why our system is so sophisticated, is because the founders understood that. They understood how flawed we are as people, and they tried to create a system that would contain those flaws. And
Right around the same time that America was writing its Declaration of Independence, Adam Smith was publishing The Wealth of Nations. And what he said basically is,
Put a bunch of capitalists together and they'll try to form a monopoly. They'll try to cheat you. You have to control these people. Yeah, but you don't hear that much about it. You don't hear that much of the side of Adam Smith. You hear about the invisible hand, right? You're always hearing about the invisible hand or not always. We don't talk much about Adam Smith anymore, but very few people want to remember that he was for a regulated government.
capitalist society, right? Not an unregulated capitalist society. Yeah. And if you asked him what his job was, he'd tell you he was a moralist. He wrote about morality. And he did not believe that capitalism was a wonderful normative way for people to live. He believed that it was the way that people do live and that to make it work well, you have to control it and regulate it.
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You know, I want to say one thing going back to what you talked about, cult leaders and politicians. I think you could also, and depending on your view of religion, you know, you could say that these are one in the same, is also, you know, religious figures too, whether that's Father Coughlin or Paula White, as you mentioned, or any of the people we see now who, you know, going back to
Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy and Tammy Faye Baker, right? Like they all share that same thing, right? Which is like, you know, we are the only ones who can tell you what exactly it is almost, frankly, Catholic. You know, I mean, that was the whole thing is that in the Catholic faith of, you know, several hundred years ago, there could be no individual relationship with God, right? You had to have that sort of intermediary of the church and the Pope and priests and everything else.
These are sort of the same people, which is like, you can't talk to God on your own. You got to send me 25 bucks. I'm going to send you a can of cream corn for the apocalypse and it's all going to be OK. Right. Yeah. Well, you know, having a direct relationship with God puts a burden on you. And in many ways, having an institution to intermediate for you makes it easier. If you just do the right things, you'll go to heaven.
The Protestant Reformation, you read the diaries of the great Protestant leaders. They worried so much that their faith wasn't strong enough. And that's because, again, life is hard. Life in this country in the early days was hard.
Many, many children died. There were wars going on all the time. I mean, it was a rough world. And it was so different than Europe in that regular people, if they were white, could get land. And, you know, in medieval times, land is what makes you an aristocrat. In America, anybody could get land, but you didn't necessarily prosper because, again, free markets are very, very competitive.
And I have this idea, it's like it's a psychological idea. I can't demonstrate it, but that a lot of what goes into conspiracy theories is jealousy.
That's like, you know, these other people have it so much easier. I wish I could be like them. Yeah, I mean, I get that. You know, I was once talking to a guy who builds houses for a living, right? And he was one of the more, I'd say, realistic slash reasonable developers, such as they are, Arthur. And he said, look, you know...
You build five houses, you're jealous of the guy that builds 10. You build 10 houses, you're jealous of the guy that builds 50. You know, you're the guy that builds 50, you're jealous of the guy that builds 500, right? So there's always the grass is greener problem.
But I guess my question is this, is where does the grass is greener problem become political or religious violence, right? Where does it become? It's my world, not yours. I want to be in control of it as opposed to saying, well, I have my house. I have my lawn. I have my family. I have my job. I have my car. I have my dogs, all this other stuff. That's for me. Maybe I'm disappointed with my lot in life. Maybe I'm frustrated. I didn't get a promotion or I wish I should have taken that opportunity that didn't take right like regret.
all of this stuff, none of that is new to humanity. But where does the approaching end times, the apocalypse, you mentioned all the apocalyptic books about Jesus returning. I mean, hell, the book of Revelations. Where does that, is it a chicken and egg thing? Which comes first, the desire or the demagogue? Well, just to keep it in the realm of paranoid conspiracy theory,
You look at the eruptions in American history, and they come at times of change. They come at times of transition. And these changes and transitions are not easy. And they come at times when people, they were either comfortable or they had the hope of being comfortable, and their children being more comfortable than them, are suddenly looking over into an abyss. And right now,
I graduated college in 1979, and the blue-collar working class was about 40% of the labor force. And you look at that number now, people that are in direct production and manufacturing, it's less than 20%. Go back 100 years to the turn of the last century, and people
at the agricultural sector, employed about as big a percentage of people as the blue-collar sector used to employ. Look at it now, it's about maybe 1-2%, and it's a fantastically productive part of the economy.
American farms make lots of money. They just don't support a lot of people. American manufacturing makes lots of money. It doesn't support a lot of people anymore. You can call it technological displacement. You can call it all kinds of things. But a lot of people that don't see themselves learning how to do computer coding, they work with their hands their whole lives. Their parents work with their hands. They were the salt of the earth.
They don't really know what's next. But what they do know is that if their kids go into this different world, if their kids move to cities, if their kids learn about computer coding and stuff, they're going to lose them culturally.
And that's not just in America. That's all over the world. Rural places are hurting. The technological revolution, the shift to the service economy and the high-tech economy has displaced an awful lot of people psychologically, physically, in all kinds of ways. And another thing that's happened in our age, which is related to this, is the
We have instant communications. It doesn't even take 20 minutes for the line to fly around the world. It's just the push of a button. Yeah. And if I said something crazy 20 years ago, I might have been able to make a living doing it, but I had to work at it. I
I had to get my books published and traditional publishers wouldn't necessarily publish me. I had to have these meetings and hotels wouldn't want to book me for the meetings and so on. Nowadays, I can reach millions of people. I can make myself look completely professional, whether I'm self-published or not. And not only that, but it's a communications ecosystem that tracks the most upsetting things.
And prioritizes them because that's the biggest reaction out of the audience. Right. And one thing is I flipped around your book a little bit. I want to go towards the end and then work back through Trump. A couple of years ago, you actually went to a Trump rally in Pennsylvania. Your friends are like, is this something you really want to do? And you talk about the long wait. And I've seen that four years ago. I remember being outside one of his rallies. I didn't actually go in. In
in New Hampshire, and it was the same thing. The vendors all lined up and people and loud music and everybody seemed to be ready to have a good time. You said here, and I thought this was fascinating, and I think you're seeing this play out a little bit electorally, but I don't want to get you stuck in elections. You said, quote, it was a little hard to get excited about the same stories about America's decline and humiliation that he'd been telling for five and six years ago.
A certain language descended over the arena. The applause lines drew a little less applause. The cheers were a little less raucous. It felt a little bit like it does during the eighth inning of a ball game late in the season when the home team is already out of the playoffs and they're down three runs like that. To me, I think you hit the nail on the head about why I think personally, I mean, it's I think it's in the country's interest for me to believe this, but I do believe it too, is that why I think he's in trouble, which is.
It is the same stuff over and over again. And if there's one thing, as my senior advisor, Stuart Stevens, likes to say, is the best word in marketing is still new. Trump ain't new anymore, Arthur. This is so true.
But the other side of the coin that I also wrote about is that most of the people that were there, they weren't like foaming at the mouth. They weren't looking to hurt people. They were looking to feel validated. And they found that in each other. In so many cases, I would see people greeting each other because they're like deadheads. They follow these rallies all over the country, some of them. And it's a community.
And community is very, very real. And especially if you feel displaced, you try to create a stronger community of your own. And I felt like Trump kind of clashed with that vibe. He came out and it was all me. And
And it was like, why isn't he telling them how great they are? Why isn't he telling them how safe he feels with them? Because he doesn't care, ultimately, because he's a con man. Yeah. I mean, because they're his marks. And it was all about getting money from them, getting power from them. And yet, look, the guy did get elected. And millions and millions and millions of people say that they love him. Another thing that I hate as a writer, I don't want people thinking that I'm...
Like a snob. I mean, I'm an intellectual, so I'm an intellectual. But I do not hold the Trump voter in contempt. No, certainly not. And I think that when that does happen.
And that is the kind of stuff, to your point about the community, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I feel very passionately about this. There are a lot of things, maybe almost everything that I fundamentally disagree with about individual Republican voters. Is it their right to believe what they do? It is. Is it my right to be disappointed that they believe in it? Yes. But that's where I'm going to stay. And it is my job.
Arthur is someone who feels like a responsibility to try and point out the things that Trump individually does or the people around him does that are bad, not only for people like you and me, but for everyone, including the people who hold him in such high esteem.
Because one of the things about, you know, Democrats say, oh, these voters always vote against their interests. They're not voting against their interests. Right. You're thinking about it in the context, if you say that, of their economic interests, what they are voting in favor of. And I think you put a brilliant point on it is their communitarian interests. These are people like me that make me feel safe, that make me feel wanted, that don't look down on me, don't make fun of me. Again, do I believe that some of the belief systems are 100 percent abominable?
objectionable and unconscionable? I do. That doesn't mean I don't understand, as you pointed out, where it comes from. And another thing, and I don't want to say anything too optimistic about Trumpism because I deplore it completely, but I'm very interested in the history of religions, and I'm a great respecter of religion, and a lot of revealed religions start out as a crazy cult.
And the leader, who may be like a saintly and loved figure, when you get down to the details of what they did, they were cult leaders. They also created these communities and created these systems that could survive beyond them. And when people ask me what's the difference between a cult and a religion, I say that the religion outlives the cult leader.
So to that point, you know what, because here's where someone I think is crossing over. And this is what I would say to my moderate Republican listeners, my independent listeners, as you're considering what to do this fall, which I hope is anything other than vote for Donald Trump or Bobby Kennedy. But that's another show.
You talk about this Jacob Chansley, the sort of QAnon shaman. And this is where I think, you know, there's Donald Trump and then there's these guys. And what I ask these undecided voters is like, who do you want to sit with? And he says, quote, as a shaman, I am like a multidimensional or hyperdimensional being.
I am able to perceive multiple different frequencies of light beyond my five senses. And it allows me to see into the other higher dimensions where these entities, these pedophiles, these rapists, these murderers, these really high up people that they almost like hide in the shadows. Nobody can see that because their third eye ain't open. That's where things like fluoride and stuff like that comes in. That's crazy.
Arthur, that is frickin banana phones crazy. Look, I'm all for respecting people and their beliefs, but that is nuts. Well, that's why he's on the cover of the book. Amen. But again, I guess that's my question is in these cults.
And you talked about how, you know, in these belief systems, it's the sort of least believing that sort of peel off first. And, you know, you may mention of something that Hannah Arendt mentions in her book, The Origins of Totalitarianism, which is sort of, you know, if it comes to an end or there's a massive change, let's say Trump loses again or whatever, there's almost this sort of Rip Van Winkle effect. Like, what the hell was I doing here? You see it with celebrities that lose their platform sometimes. Yeah.
Father Coughlin, he died in the 1970s, and he lived a long time. But World War II started, and the church was like, that's enough. We can't have this fascist preaching in our name. They turned him off. They sent him to, I don't know where they sent him. They probably had some home for difficult priests. And there he lived out his years. He was nobody. I remember like
some media figures, I don't have to mention any names, but they were very, very, very powerful people. And when you turned off the microphone, suddenly they were gone. And I think in politics, when you have a cult of personality, when the personality departs, the cult may depart too.
It's my hope. And I'm not without hope. I'm very, very pessimistic, but I can't believe that we're really going to go over this cliff that it looks like we're going over. But the interesting part about the American cult of personality, such as it is, Arthur, is that whether or not
And let's stick with the presidency. Our, you know, our chief executive, chief magistrate, as they used to be called, was that they either they got elected, they served a term and they lost. They served two terms. Maybe they died in office naturally or otherwise. Maybe they resigned like Richard Nixon. But for the most part, if Barack Obama goes and does a fundraiser, right, you'll still get the most faithful of the faithful.
But the individual, you know, maybe who signed up to work on his 2008 or 2012 campaign, probably not going to pay a thousand bucks to see him. It's not that they still don't appreciate the work they did for him. Glad he was president. It's like, but you're not president anymore. Joe Biden is. And, you know, four years from now, somebody else will be or five years from now, somebody else will be. And I think maybe that's the difference with Trump is that not only is he a demagogue, a very talented one, whether you like him or not, but also that he just won't freaking go away.
Well, again, I'm a New Yorker and I'm of a certain age. So I've lived with the Trump phenomenon my whole adult life. The apartment building that he got in trouble for not letting black people live in is across the street from my house. So, I mean, there's traces of Trump everywhere I look.
All these other presidents that you're talking about are people that came up in a system that they admired. They were working politicians. Many of them were lawyers. Some of them were in the military. They were people that really, really cared about the American system, and I include Nixon in that. He was a bad guy, but he was a patriot.
And he also had a vision. He didn't go into politics because he wanted to have the highest ratings of anybody. He went into politics because he had this idea of how he was going to change the world. Trump comes up. He's a con man. He's a hustler. He's selling stuff.
his idea of what America is just doesn't mesh with these other presidents' idea of what America is. And I think he's our first pure celebrity president. Oh, sure. So then you say you're pessimistic. Why are you pessimistic? Well,
Because I read the polls, and the polls don't say what I want them to say. You know, and that really frightens me. And I also, I lived through 2016, and I was very, very nervous on election day. I had a really bad feeling. But, you know, I would tell my kids and stuff, we're not going to sink that low. It's not going to happen here.
Before the last election, about a month before Election Day, I read, It Can't Happen Here to kind of prepare myself for it. And I read it. My reaction was, that's not going to happen here. You know, and it didn't. The system held in many ways. And I think that that's complicated.
kind of fooled people too, people that don't spend a lot of time with the news or actually listening to what Trump says in his rallies. I read a statistic yesterday. Correct me if it's wrong. I read it in the newspaper, so it must be true, right? Of course. That Trump had 44 people serving as cabinet secretaries during his four years in office. 44 people. Four of them have endorsed him for re-election.
I think that is an astonishing figure. The people that were closest to him seem to have the most contempt for him. Because, like you said, whether or not it's the Wizard of Oz and looking behind the curtain or, you know, the emperor without any clothes or, you know, a celebrity that you idolize up on the silver screen and you meet them and they're a jerk. Not saying that happens all the time, but I assume it has to happen sometime. Your belief is shattered. Yeah.
And yet, the stuff you read about, if you just look at his history in real estate, if you just look at his history with the casinos, privatizing his debts and then pulling out of the company and screwing the shareholders. He's a cheater. He's been a cheat all his life. He's a cheater. Never mind what he does to individual women.
How he positioned himself on the radio, on the Howard Stern show. Look what Howard Stern thinks of him. It's like, again, all of these people that have been associated with him in one way or another, they don't want a lot to do with him. And yet, we may rehire him for a job that he utterly failed at. And that frightens me. Right. And even from my perspective, he's even less legitimate now than he ever was.
And certainly not any more prepared or serious about it other than the things that would either help him personally, i.e. staying out of prison, self-enrichment because he's broke again, or because he's happy to serve as sort of an empty vessel for the likes of these Project 2025 weirdos or the white Christian evangelicals or the Steve Bannons of the world or the Russians, whoever it might be, right? And they all have real serious agendas that involve changing the world completely. He doesn't.
He's just whatever makes him feel good. But these guys are serious. And when I was talking to my publisher about, like, you know, who's going to be interested in this book, I really, really wanted to talk to Lincoln Project people and Bulwark people and so on, because people on the left, you know, they're not going to vote for Trump. And the people that are in QAnon, they're gone. You know, nobody's going to get them back.
But there's tens of millions of people that are not bad people. And many of them are patriots. And many of them served in the military. And many of them care about the country and care about what their children are going to inherit. And I want to reach them. I want to remind them that we don't have to be this way. So this platform is, I think, really, really important.
I don't expect to reach that many people, but if I can reach anybody and change their vote, it's important to me. Well, amen to that. Everybody, the book, again, is The Politics of Fear, The Peculiar Persistence of American Paranoia. It is available wherever fine books are sold. Absolutely check it out. Arthur, before I let you go, can we find you, if you dare to tread anywhere on social media, and where can we find your other work? I have a little website that's just arthurgolwag.com.
And if you land on it, you can find a little tab that takes you to my Substack page. And I don't have much of a footprint on Twitter, but I'm going to try to enlarge it. My books are all available through Amazon. Some of them are available in bookstores too, but there's a lot less bookstores than there used to be. But if you just Google me, you'll find them. It's easy.
As always, gang, you can find me on Twitter and TikTok, as long as it's legal, at Reed Galen on threads and Instagram at Reed underscore Galen underscore LP and over at Substack myself, the home front. Arthur Goldwag, thanks for joining me. Thanks so much for having me. Everybody else, we'll see you next time. Thanks again to everyone for listening.
Be sure to follow and subscribe to The Lincoln Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, or however you listen. Don't forget to leave a five-star review. To connect with us, follow us on Twitter, at Project Lincoln. And for more information on our movement, to join our mailing list, subscribe to our newsletter, or make a contribution to our efforts, visit lincolnproject.us.
If you want to message the podcast directly, please send an email to podcast at LincolnProject.us. And if you want to personally join the fight to save our nation's democracy, visit JoinTheUnion.us. For The Lincoln Project, I'm Reid Galen. I'll see you on the next episode.
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