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The 2022 political field was intense, so don't get left behind in 2024. If you're running for political office, the first thing on your to-do list needs to be securing your name on the web with a yourname.votewebdomain from godaddy.com. Get yours now. Welcome to another episode of Breaking Battlegrounds with your host, Chuck Morin. I'm Sam Stone. Another fantastic lineup of guests for you today, folks. We're going to start out with someone who quite
Quite frankly, Chuck has more experience in the field that he was elected to oversee than most people we run into on this or any program. Welcome to Breaking Battlegrounds, Marlo Oaks, Utah State Treasurer. He has spent 17 years overseeing multibillion-dollar portfolios, first at Farmers Insurance Group and then at Intermountain Healthcare, and oversaw the treasury function at Intermountain. That's the type of experience when you're talking about a state treasurer, Chuck, that
that you actually need and want in that job, and too few have. Very much so. Yeah, Marla, that's the one thing we were really impressed about. You actually are experienced for your job, which, you know, we usually talk about in this MAGA culture, and, you know, Sam and I are both conservative, but, you know, yeah, look, I ran the, I was a barber, and I'm a treasurer now. And with you, you've actually done this.
Yes, that's right. And that's, I think, has been really important for me in understanding a lot of the things that are happening nationally, not just with the government, but in the private sector with things like ESG that we'll talk about a little bit today. Yeah, so let's talk first about the debt ceiling. So Reuters came out about an hour ago and said the White House...
And the House are nearing an agreement on the debt ceiling increase, which is amazing about this. As Biden had talked to him two months ago, it's probably been done in April. What does it mean? Help our audience understand the lame interns. What does it mean if the federal government defaults on this? What does it mean for a state? What does it mean for the taxpayers?
Well, a default would be disastrous because there's so much money that investors own of Treasury bonds. And so a default just makes the cost of borrowing money go up. Right.
The United States has long been viewed as the best credit in the world, but will never default. If that were to change, then, you know, our ability to borrow at the lowest rates would disappear. And so we'll be paying more for borrowing money in the capital markets. That's the most impactful.
Just as a comparison, for instance, if you know, how much does the US pay when we're borrowing money versus let's say a country like Spain, which has had a number of upheavals or Greece or another country that has in the past defaulted on their debt?
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, it does depend, but you're going to pay maybe, you know, anywhere from 50 to 100 basis points, so half a percent to a percent would be my guess. Don't quote me on that because it's going to change a lot. Well, I mean, you probably have an easy way to say this. Utah has the highest...
Credit rating, correct? I mean, there's no one close. Yeah. Right? You're clear on how it is. Okay. So what is the lowest state and what does that difference mean when they go out and get bonds? Yeah, so we're basically, like when interest rates were low, I think we borrowed money at around 1.3%.
versus Illinois that went out around the same time and had to borrow at 5%. Oh, my gosh. That's a huge amount when you're talking financing for public projects and infrastructure. Yeah.
I mean, yeah, they're financed over a long time, right? That's not a one or two year loan you're talking about. Right, right. And so that ends up being millions of dollars to, you know, the taxpayers end up being saddled with. Yeah, I saw an interesting statistic yesterday. I was reading that the United States spends more on interest payments now than it does on programs for kids.
Which is just incredible. So that's the point. So let's talk about ESGs. ESGs is short for Environmental, Social, and Governance Investing. Explain to our audience, everybody hears this ugly word ESG, but what is an ESG and why should people be alarmed about this trend? ESG fund. ESG fund. And why should people be alarmed by this? Yeah.
Yeah, so yes, he stands for environmental social governance. It looks like an investment strategy, but it's really not. It's a way to push politics through the capital markets. The problem with this is that you take issues that most Americans
disagree on, particularly in the social realm. And you then push it through business, and it's divisive because you're essentially pushing politics onto business. So, you know, people don't want businesses politicized. They want to be able to go to work and do their job and not worry about the politics of their business.
you know, the place that they work. And now people are becoming concerned about their ability to say anything in the workplace for fear that they might lose their job. And then it just kind of ripples out from there. I received a text from a person that knows me who
He is the CEO of a tech company, a small startup tech company, and the venture capital firm that had invested in his company. Sent him a 74 questionnaire, 74 questions on ESG or related to ESG. And this is the part that really struck me. He said...
He had to answer if the board makeup, if they had 60% or more of their board that were trans, LGBTQ plus or women. And then he had to answer the same thing for the engineers.
They're computer engineers, and he had to answer if we had policies in place to terminate engineers and hire new engineers who were in the protected classes until we had at least 50% of engineers in those classes within six months.
Oh, my goodness. Oh, my. So what are you talking about? The death of meritocracy and the birth of social chaos. If you think about that, I mean, that is really totalitarian approach to what you're saying, too. I mean, my goodness. Yes.
Yeah, and people need to think about, you know, the word woke, it's maybe unclear what it means. It's actually viewing the world through the lens of oppressors and oppressed. So the oppressors are the conservative white male, Asian, you know, anybody who has a conservative viewpoint. They're by definition oppressors.
And the oppressed are people like the trans, the LGBTQ+, you know, women potentially. And so this is straight out of Mao's Cultural Revolution. We're just doing it along race and ideology. And if you view the world, if you think about it that way, then what you see happening in business and kind of in society makes more sense.
We're with Marlo Oaks. He's a Utah state treasurer doing a fantastic job. We're talking about ESGs. You probably have all heard the term before. So let me ask you this question. I was reading an article and Utah withdrawn, I believe it was $100 million worth of investment from BlackRock. Is that correct? Right. Okay. I think one thing that's not talked about in this process is this is being pushed by companies like BlackRock.
What does that mean to the bottom line, for example, to something like BlackRock, when you take out $100 million from their portfolio because they're pushing this ESG?
Yeah, so if you think about $100 million, you know, if you have a 1% management fee, which this did not, it was much lower than that, but 1% management fee would be $1 million a year. This would probably be like 20 basis points, so one-fifth of that, so $200,000. But, you know, when you aggregate $8 trillion or $9 trillion, right,
That's a lot of money, right? Right. It builds up. And so really the asset management business is an amazing business because you don't need as much human capital to manage massive amounts of money. And so it's very efficient. Do they make more money if the assets which they have under control for you, if it performs well, there's certain benchmarks, or they just get a management fee, period? Yeah.
Yeah, generally, it's just the management fee that they make. And I'll tell you the most troubling part. Isn't the ESG funds, the problem is, because BlackRock only has about 4.4% of their funds, at least that was kind of mid-2021, they had about 4.4% of their total assets in
in ESG or sustainable funds. The problem is, is that they defined, they said, if ESG risk and climate risk are investment risks, then we can use all of the assets that we oversee to push this ESG agenda. And so it's people, people don't even realize that if they have any money with BlackRock, it
It is being used to push ESG issues through business. And so that's the biggest problem. A lot of pensioners, people that have money with a pension plan, they don't have the ability to move their money. They don't even have a say in this.
And so that's why I wrote an op-ed piece with the treasurer of Oklahoma about the fiduciary standard in this country. People don't even realize that their money is being weaponized against them in ways that they don't even have a say in. Yeah.
It's remarkable. And no matter what, if the ESG investments are performing less than the others, they still get paid. I mean, they still get paid on the assets. It's like literally, you know, we're going to do social experiments with your money and still get paid. It's pretty incredible. The lack of performance metrics makes this a lot easier to push. So you wrote, you made a point that there's documented evidence that ESGs do not have a good return on investment. Can you explain about that a little bit?
Well, any time you are constraining your universe,
So, you know, if you're not investing in oil and gas, for example, then you're going to increase volatility in your portfolio, which is essentially risk. You're increasing the risk or you're reducing returns or some combination thereof because you're reducing the opportunities that you're investing in. So investors in New York have now sued the New York City Regulatory
retirement systems, I think there's three different plans that are being sued now for not investing in oil and gas because that's impacting the performance of the pension plan. So, you know, it's pretty simple calculus. Well, and given that – I saw that lawsuit and I was actually wondering, Chuck, if given that –
So these pension plans, the recipients get their money no matter what. It's just going to end up coming from the taxpayers. But I believe in that case, every taxpayer in every state has a right to file that kind of suit and frankly should be doing so. Correct. Correct. We're with Marlo Oaks, Utah State Treasurer. So what people don't understand, too, because this money seems like it's monopoly money, right? Right.
We're going to come back the next segment to talk about this. We're having a break here. This is Chuck Warren and Sam Stone on Breaking Battlegrounds with Marlo Oaks. He's a Utah State Treasurer. We're talking about ESGs today. You can find us at BreakingBattlegrounds.vote. We'll be right back.
Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds. We are on right now with Marlo Oaks, Utah State Treasurer. But folks, we're talking money, so let's talk about a way for you to earn a fantastic return on your money. I'm talking about InvestYRefi. That's invest, the letter Y, then refi.com. Go to their website right now. Check it out. You can earn up to a 10.25% fixed rate of return.
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Treasurer Oaks, let's talk about the ESG ranking system. Can you explain that to our audience, what the ESG ranking system is? You mentioned also in an opinion piece that some of the Russian-controlled energy producers had higher ESG ratings than folks like Chevron and Exxon. Really, the
The most striking example of why this is completely political is in April or May of last year when Tesla was thrown out of the S&P 500 ESG index. I mean, come on.
So clearly this is highly political. Basically what you're doing with these scores, these scoring companies like MSDI, which provides indexes, S&P, which also provides indexes, they'll score companies and they'll score them based on ESG scores.
you know, factors, the question you have to ask yourself is who's determining what the factors are and what's the correct answer to the factors. And there's no kind of common metrics, but that's important because these are subjective criteria that they're talking about. These are things that any one of us may have a different view on, but that's how markets operate. Market, market, market.
In Treasure Oaks, I mean, one of the things – I can see how you could form metrics around the environmental side of this if you're talking about carbon. Are they decreasing from five years ago or something?
I mean, because the major use of this is essentially to say, hey, if your company has a massive expansion of DEI programs, that they follow all the diversity, equity, and inclusion leadership, what that tells them, that they'll move up this ranking. But those programs are basically saying hire a bunch of people who do not contribute anything at all to the bottom line of your company. So they're actively harming the profitability of every company that adopts this.
That's right. And the example that I gave, that text message that I read to you about the engineers is a perfect example. And most people in the United States, at least the country, is basically split down the center or split down the middle on issues that are social in nature. And so we are actively, by doing this,
We are dividing our country even further. It's a very divisive ideology that's being pushed. And again, most people don't want that. And when they recognize that this is a political agenda, then they need to stand up and say, stop doing this. Stop doing it with my money. Stop doing it in the marketplace by voting.
But, you know, companies saying, look at how virtuous we are by doing X, Y and Z. No, we need to make our voices heard in the marketplace, even businesses around you that may not be publicly traded. Let them know that you don't want them politicizing their business or if they're not, let them know that you appreciate them staying apolitical.
We talk a lot on the show about budget questions. I mean, Sam and I are both concerned about the financial health of our country. In this debt ceiling debate, we've had many Congress people on discuss it as well. And so one thing we've learned is people just don't understand the money factor. I mean, people in this country don't understand, for example, Social Security. Now, you have managed the Farmers Insurance Group Los Angeles. You have managed Irma Health Care, so billions of dollars. You're managing the state of Utah now. Explain to people what the difference is between...
between having a rate of return on your investments of, say, 2% more on one path versus another? I mean, what does that mean? Because you're paying for retirements, you're paying for pensions. Explain to people why having a good return is so important for their long-term health. Oh, it makes a massive difference. I mean, just 1% per year, you know, compounded over time can be hundreds of thousands of dollars.
It's critical. And most people are depending on their retirement, for example, to help them survive when they're not working. I mean, this is really important money. And so just a small difference in return can have a major impact. And that's why
The fiduciary standards in this country are so important. They basically require someone who is overseeing someone else's money, who is acting as an agent for that person. They have to act in the best interest of that individual, and that is defined as pursuing the best financial outcomes for that person. They are not allowed legally to pursue other objectives, and ESG is clearly another objective.
And what really is so troubling about ESG is the expropriation of people's money, people that don't even know that their money is being used this way. The example of BlackRock that has defined ESG risk as investment risk. Therefore, we can push ESG throughout the market. That impacts everybody in the market negatively. What else do you think people should know about ESGs that we've not covered here today?
Well, I think people tend to think of ESG as socially responsible investing. Socially responsible investing is the idea that I may have values that I want reflected in my portfolio. And so I will avoid certain companies or industries, and it's a personal choice that I am making.
And so it's generally divesting. But importantly, it respects the market. It respects other people in the marketplace to have different views and different values. ESG
It took socially responsible investing and ratcheted it up to accomplish an agenda. Now there is an agenda to be accomplished. And this is being done with money that is not their money. So the investment manager is taking other people's money. They have a fiduciary obligation to those people who they manage money for.
And yet they are ignoring that and engaging and changing companies in the marketplace. So for example, BlackRock went into ExxonMobil, they engaged with companies like this. These large investment managers going to the management of a company like ExxonMobil and saying, "You need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. You need to create a plan to meet net zero by 2050. And oh, by the way, you also need to cut oil production by 20%."
Well, who does that impact? That impacts everybody in the marketplace. And so this is not socially responsible investing because this ESG engages with companies to change the company in a way that impacts everybody in the marketplace and it impacts the marketplace. So there is a collusion element going on here with these net zero investments.
So net zero insurance, net zero asset managers. Vanguard in December quit the net zero asset managers alliance because they saw that there was a liability associated with this related to antitrust. Is it?
Is it fair to say that at the margins, all these ESG programs are driving up everyday cost of living for especially low-income Americans? Well, look at the gasoline prices. Yes, absolutely. This is distorting the markets. It's creating a massive overhang and threatens to have serious ongoing ramifications for all of us. If you want to
undermine society. You go after their energy and you go after agriculture. Exactly right. Thank you so much. Marlo Oaks, Utah State Treasurer. We'd love to have you back on again in the future. Breaking Battlegrounds back in just a moment.
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Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds with your host, Chuck Moran, and I'm Sam Stone. Up next with us, Mark Deluzio. But Chuck, while we were on the break, you brought up some amazing statistics related to that last conversation. Right. As you remember, folks, we just had on with this Marlo Oaks. He's the treasurer for the state of Utah, one of these people who's in public office who's actually qualified to be in the position he's in.
And we were talking about ESGs. And part of ESGs is diversity, right? And so you have all these diversity people and corporations and so forth. And he was talking about he got this email from Venture Capital Fund asking, will you have 50% of your people be women, LBGT? I mean, just a whole bunch of quotas. So I was Googling. We wanted to talk about it. Ran out of time. But there was a poll that came out on March 16th of this year.
Among respondents, 87% of Americans support a merit-based approach compared to 8%. So again, 87% support merit-based. 8% of Americans support a quota system on race and gender. This is for hiring. For hiring. Yeah. 5% are unsure or refuse. I mean, those are the same people confused about everything, right? When you get down, breaking it down by partisanship, 93% of Republicans support merit-based approach to hiring.
90% of independents support merit-based hiring. This is the number stood with me. 86% of Democrats support merit-only hiring approach, not quotas.
But if you listen to Joe Biden, if you listen to these investment firms pushing, you know, if you listen to Marlo Oaks, who we just had on this program talking about, you know, a venture capital firm demanding that a startup hire fire its existing engineers and hire 60 percent women. GLB TQI AP plus plus the alphabet soup. Yeah. Yeah. And so just folks, Americans aren't even there. And so, Mark, you worked in the corporate world forever.
How would you feel if you're coaching or advising someone and they're trying to get new venture capital and the venture fund comes in and says, yeah, to do this, you got to have a plan to fire half your people so they meet the quotas of women, LBGT plus, et cetera?
I'd probably tell them to go screw themselves, screw my language. That's not one of the seven dirty words. We're good. No, not yet. I love George. God rest George Carlin. I love him. Actually, you know, I've seen – so this is having a reverse effect.
on what they're trying to do. Because what happens is, and I've seen this actually in real life, when a woman or a person of color or whatever gets promoted, the first thing people think is they got promoted because of their race, they got promoted because of their gender, they got promoted because of their sexual orientation. And it's an unbelievable disgrace as to, and it's actually opposite, it's having the opposite effect
of what it's trying to accomplish. Right. Which, by the way, is pretty much any liberal policy that's out there has that opposite effect. And liberals aren't stupid people. So you've got to walk away from this truck and say to yourself, it's got to be intentional. They've got to know that you're... 100%. Okay. Okay? So... And I've seen this happen time and time again. Clarence Thomas, for example...
Well, he only got into law school because of affirmative action. Well, affirmative action happened the year after he got into law school. Okay, so that's a bunch of bull. I actually didn't know that. That's fantastic, Mark. He's off the charts brilliant anyway, but he even got tagged with that. You know, he's only there because he's
You know, he's black, and that's why he got that, you know, come on, give me a break. It's really doing damage to women, to minorities, and whatever other group you want to try to promote, it's actually having the opposite effect. Marlo, we have two minutes, and we want to come back and talk about the real reason we brought you on today. But...
What is your sense about the debt ceiling debate? Supposedly an hour ago, Reuters announced that the White House and Congress are coming close to having a deal. As you've been watching it, and a man who's worked in the corporate world, what has been your view on the situation? I am disgusted with the Republicans all before. Andy Bitt's been one of them. I'm happy that Andy stuck by his guns.
And I've had, I had been in Congress, I would not have voted for the debt ceiling. You know, every time Chuck, this comes up, there's always a reason why this time it's okay. And, and I'm sorry, you can't say I'm responsibly increasing the debt ceiling. That's like me telling you, I'm going to responsibly drive a hundred miles an hour an hour. Okay. It doesn't, it doesn't work. And it's this madness has got to stop. And,
And the only way to get us back on track economically is cut the hell out of spending. And most of our spending is unconstitutional. I'm sorry. I'd say 50, 70% of our spending is unconstitutional. And we continue to
to do exactly what other nations have done in the past that met through their minds, including Japan still suffering from World War II in their economy. And you look at Europe, look at Greece, you look at the Roman Empire. Anyway, long story short, we are continuing to double down and we're going into financial ruin. And I am absolutely disappointed with this whole situation.
gamesmanship that's going on between McCarthy and Biden. And in the meantime, he may win politically, but we're going to take our country down. Now we're going to head to a break real quick, but when we come back, we're going to have more with Mark Deluzio. We want to talk about what we really had him on the air today to talk a little bit about Memorial Day. Folks, Breaking Battlegrounds back in just a moment.
Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds with your host, Chuck Warren. I'm Sam Stone. Folks, are you concerned with stock market volatility, especially with Biden in office? You've been hearing us talk for months now about why refi and the opportunity for you to invest and earn up to a 10.25% fixed rate of return on a secure collateralized portfolio. And when you're doing that,
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This is the absolute definition of capitalism. I highly encourage you to go to investyrefi.com. That's invest, the letter Y, then refi.com. Or give them a call at 888-YREFI24 and tell them Chuck and Sam sent you. So we're with Mark Deluzio and it's Memorial Day weekend. I think it's a holiday that people view more as a kickoff to summer and pick up some picnics and barbecues and not the real reason for it.
Mark is a Gold Star father. He has his son Scott and Stephen, both served in Afghanistan. Stephen also served in Iraq. And his son Stephen was killed in action in Afghanistan and was awarded the Bronze Door and Purple Heart. Mark, tell us about the experience, how you found out, how this has changed the meaning to Memorial Day. And I'm sure you've got to know other parents who have experienced this tragedy.
Yeah, we met a lot of Gold Star families. It's a circle of... It's a club that none of us... A circle of honor no one wants to be in. Right. And we can't get out of the club either. Right. But, you know, I guess...
I always thought memorial... Look, there was a time in my life where it was all about, hey, it's a three-day weekend, we're going golfing, we're going to have a barbecue. I was that guy, okay? Sure. And I don't criticize people for thinking that way when they say, happy Memorial Day. I'm not one of those, oh, well, you can't say that because it's a... They fight. As a matter of fact, my son Stephen told me, obviously before he died, but he told me that we want them to have fun on Memorial Day. That's...
That's why we fight. That's why we fight. Right? Yeah. Have your hot dogs and hamburgers. Go to the beach. Have fun. Right? This is why we fight. Yeah, their sacrifice has allowed all of the rest of us that enjoyment in our lives and with our families. And, you know, I mean, there's something about that sacrifice that frankly brings joy.
Thank you.
is to make a life that we can enjoy, that everyone else here can feel safe and secure and blessed to spend with their family, right? I mean, that's what it's about. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And, you know, they have this calling. And, you know, by the way, I put police and fire and others in that category as well. They protect us and they put their life on the line to protect us. And,
And, you know, when you look at Memorial Day, there's a lot of confusion about, you know, it's not Veterans Day. It's not, you know, I don't get hung up on all that stuff because, you know, people are busy. They live their lives. You know, people do recognize this day for the most part, even if it's ever so brief. And I really would like, you know,
America to just enjoy themselves this weekend and not be so sorrowful and all that. I mean, honor the fallen. That's what this is all about. But have that beer, have that hot dog, go to the beach, whatever. Honor the fallen, celebrate the living. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'm sorry, go ahead, Chuck. Oh, no, I was just going to say, out of this tragedy, though, you and your wife...
have really done a lot to help veterans coming back to this country to move their lives forward, right? Part of this is you founded an organization called Brave Business Reviews and Advisors to Veteran Entrepreneurs. Tell us what you're doing with that.
Well, what we do there is, by the way, it's not a 501. I take no money for it. I want no money for it. People have offered money for this, but it's time. I've got a team of some people to help me, but mostly it's me helping veterans either start businesses or help them with their careers. I've done resume writing over at Luke Air Force Base. I've done seminars over there. Just helping veterans because what I've found is
We as a country do a great job helping our military put on the uniform. We do a lousy job helping them take it off. And, uh,
A lot of these guys come back into corporate America, for example, and all they see is a sea of gray. It's not well run. And most companies are not well run, quite frankly, despite what the CEO might say. And they see a sea of gray. They don't see that clear line of delineation and responsibility and accountability that they saw in the military. So they can't function in a lot of respects in corporate life. So then what do they say? Oh, geez, I want to start a business.
Well, the first thing I tried to do is talk them out of it because going into business is not for everybody. No. Well, I've got a very tough interview I do with them to make sure they have the DNA to be an entrepreneur because it's not for everybody. It's like I can't hit a 95-mile-an-hour baseball, so I can't play major league baseball. Right.
I was good enough defensively, but not offensively. And so, you know, that's what I try to do. I don't want them to get into something where they end up failing, you know, in that regard. Because I know enough about it so that I've been an entrepreneur and I've made most of the mistakes they could probably make as an entrepreneur.
And I just wanted to make sure that they have the DNA to be able to do this. But I helped them. I helped a lot of veterans start businesses very successfully. Some have come back and said, if it wasn't for you, I'd be on the streets.
But it was my way to give them back. I didn't serve. I missed Vietnam by about a year. And I didn't serve. And my father did. My father was at the Battle of Iwo Jima. Of course, my two boys served. I've had uncles serving and other family members. But for me, I said to myself, well, look, God gave me a lot of gifts. And how can I use those gifts to help somebody else that helped us, right? And the best way to do that is help
Our military, our veterans who, and I always, by the way, I always spell veterans with a capital B. And I also do the same for military, for police, for fire. Anybody who, to me, puts their life on the line to save or help others, to me, is my definition of a hero. Does the U.S. government have any programs...
let's say therapy, it's an easy way to frame something here. For families who have lost children in military conflicts, is there any support system the military has for parents and siblings?
I don't know of any government that sets a standard, you know, insurance and stuff like that, but there are separate private organizations, 501Cs, that, for example, will help them with their homes and help their kids with college school.
uh tuition and and things like all these are private you know it's really funny you know back when i used to live in connecticut uh my wife and i did a true uh trees of honor memorial uh in connecticut it's a beautiful park that we created for the 65 fallen from iraq and uh afghanistan in uh in from connecticut right the middle town connecticut
cttreesofhonor.com i think or whatever and uh i'd have to know richard richard blumenthal senator blumenthal you know denang dick would always show up at our event and i was always polite to him and and you know i quite frankly never got into any kind of debates with him and you know we were cordial and we got to know him a little bit and he got to know us well diane my wife did a big uh was part of the fisher house uh
which is a big military organization that helps have homes next to veteran hospitals so people could stay there for free while their loved ones are recuperating. A thousand-person black tie event. There was a big dance contest. And in comes Richard Blumenthal and Chris Murphy, newly minted Senator Chris Murphy. So Black Tie.
So Blumenthal sees me and he comes over and he says, Mark, I'd like to introduce you to Chris Murphy, our new senator. And I think you know about Chris Murphy, right? And he's the darling of MSNBC. And Murphy comes over and says, yeah, I'm really sorry about your loss with your son, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I looked at him and I said, Chris, let me tell you something. You're a new senator, right? He goes, yes. I said, you see what's going on here with this event? He goes, yeah.
"You know how many organizations are there like this?" I said, "If you guys were doing your job in Washington, there'd be no need for a military charity, okay?" I said, "Do me a favor. When you're new, go to Washington and do your job." That's exactly what I said to him. Now, Blumenthal was like, his mouth was open, right? And Murphy folded his arms, and he said, "Well, it's nice meeting you," and he walked away. What should they be doing in D.C.?
First of all, I don't think, as you probably remember from my platform running for Congress, I did not believe any veteran who fought in combat
ever have to pay income taxes again in his life. I don't care how much money they make. They already paid their debt as far as I'm concerned to our country. Secondly, I think we should have absolutely free healthcare, a card with a veteran's picture on it, tied to a one-time application, and they could walk into any medical facility or doctor anywhere in the country. And I don't care where, I don't care how specialist, it doesn't matter because
Their health care, the veterans' hospitals are an absolute mess. My son, for example, right now is going through unbelievable red tape, even though Trump did help the situation somewhat. Just to get his back looked out, he has severe lifelong back injuries from jumping out of Blackhawks when he was over there in Afghanistan. Yeah.
And he's ruined for life. I mean, that pain is going to be with him forever. And there's not much they can do, they said, surgically. But the red tape that these guys go through, and absolutely, when I met veterans up in Prescott, I met some Marines up there, and they told me horror stories about one guy with chest pains waiting six hours in the VA waiting room.
Then they said, well, we can't help you here. You've got to go to the hospital. They sent him to the hospital, and the guy died on the way of a heart attack. So it's just stuff like that. You hear horror stories over and over again, and we're just not taking care of these veterans. I'm sorry. And so those are two things that they could do. There's plenty of other things they could do, too, for their families,
especially the falling with little children and things like that. But there's a whole host of things. And let me tell you something. People say, well, Mark, where are you going to get the money to do that? Give me five minutes and I'll find the damn money. Right.
Yeah, the money's there. In the scope of what we spend, what this federal government spends. And what we piss away. Exactly. Mark, we have about two minutes left with you today. The question I want to ask is, why did your sons want to serve? And do this whole experience...
What does it mean to you to be an American? Well, both of them were, they almost left college because of 9-11. They were so impacted by 9-11. And, you know, we brought them up to be very patriotic. We took them to West Rover Air Force Base, got them to the Air Force Base.
dress them up in little uniforms to see the troops coming back in the first Gulf War. And we're always, you know, respectful of the police and fire and definitely the military. And so we always brought them up that way. But they got inspired by 9-11. And Scott had a great saying. Somebody said they both left CPA firms, college graduates. They did not want to become commissioned officers. They wanted to fight on the ground with their guys. And
And they both left CPA firms to go fight. And somebody says, Scott, why would you leave a cushy job in a CPA firm to go fight in combat, especially in the infantry? They're both sent up for the infantry. And Scott's answer was, why not me? Yeah. You know?
That says a lot about the character of your sons and the family you raised, Mark. I mean, that's a huge sacrifice. With 30 seconds left here, what is the message you want to leave to our listeners about Memorial Day and about the sacrifice our veterans make?
Number one, thank you is not enough. You could say thank you to a veteran, but it's not enough. You've got to do more for them. And there's different ways that we can all do more for our veterans. And the other thing I'd say is just enjoy yourself because this is the greatest country, albeit imperfect, the greatest country in the world. And there's absolutely no other place that you could have been born that would have been better than this.
That's it right there. Folks, Breaking Battlegrounds will be back on the air next week. Enjoy the Memorial Day weekend with your friends and family. We'll be back on the podcast. Welcome back to Breaking Battlegrounds. Memorial Day special edition here.
Up next with us, Sergeant First Class Shane Vincent joined the Army in 2008. His first assignment was with the 3rd Infantry Regiment, most commonly known as the Old Guard from 2009 to 2012. He became the first person from Wyoming to earn the Tomb Guard identification badge. He also became the first Tomb Guard in history to guard the unknowns for 24 hours straight without relief during Hurricane Sandy.
And he then went on to serve with the 4th Infantry Division out of Fort Carson, Colorado, and returned in 2016 for a second tour at the tomb and conducted a second 24-hour shift during the blizzard of 2017. He has not had good luck with the weather in Washington. No, he has not. And currently he is in the last year of a recruiting posting in Casper, Wyoming, and
Shane, welcome to Breaking Battlegrounds. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Thank you for having me, guys. So, Shane, I think a lot of people simply do not understand what is exactly the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and what does it mean to be standing there for 20 hours and guarding it? So I'll try and summarize. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is...
a shrine, kind of a place where anyone that's ever lost somebody that never came home. So back, let me start over. So in World War I, we had thousands of unknown soldiers because of the devastation that the weaponry was leaving and
the lack of technology to be able to identify remains. There were thousands of unknown soldiers, which meant there were thousands of families that never had the closure to be able to identify
to know what happened to their loved one when they went off to World War I. So they didn't know if they died in combat. They didn't know if they were a prisoner of war. I mean, there was just so much that they had no idea, even after the war.
And worse off than that, they didn't have a way, a place where they could go and mourn for their loved one like we do now. You know, you can go, you know that your loved one is buried somewhere and you're able to go and see them. So really they made, we always say the ultimate sacrifice is sacrifice.
dying for your country or serving, dying in service to your country, really these guys made the ultimate sacrifice because not only did they lose their lives, but they lost their identity as well. Because there were thousands of them, they decided in 1921, they basically created one
place with one set of remains of unknown soldiers that represented all of the rest of them. That way, people could come to this singular place in Arlington National Cemetery, the largest veteran cemetery in the country, and they can pay their respects.
Now, you have, is it 24, 25-hour shifts or 26-hour shifts? Is that correct? Per relief, yes. So it's basically a relief is like your squad, anywhere between as low as four people and anywhere upwards of nine people on one relief. And then how it works is what's called a fireman schedule. So you work 26 hours on, 22 off, 26 off.
26 on, 22 off, 26 on, and then you have four days off after that to kind of recover, spend time with family, get your uniforms back up to the standard they need to be, and then you get right back into that rotation. How does one get, I mean, it's an honor. How does one get this honor to be one of these guards? Is it something you apply for or something they pick you? How does that work?
It could be a little bit of both. For the majority of it, we look for volunteers. So I was actually recruited from the old guard right out of basic training. They had...
really good recruiters. I like to think I'm a good recruiter, but these guys are great. They basically, you know, they were talking about being able to possibly be a tomb guard and that it's the least awarded badge in the military and all of these great things that the old guard does. And so that piqued my interest. You know, I wanted to be the best of the best. And so I volunteered for the old guard with the
with the whole plan as to be, to go and be a tomb guard. And the standards for that are incredibly high, right?
They are, yes. It's easier when you're first coming into the Army because one of the stipulations, you have to have no UCMJ action. So basically you can't have gotten into any big trouble with the military coming in. Really, other than that, the standards are
are pretty basic. You know, you have to be somewhat tall. 5'10 is like, it used to be the minimum, but I've worked with guards shorter than that. They have to be at least like, I think the shortest guard I worked with was 5'5. You have to meet the height and weight requirements of the Army, so, and you have to be able to pass a PT test. Um,
Now, that's just to be able to even look at going down for your what's called TDY, and that's like a 10-day long crash course on how to be a tomb guard. Now, if we have a bunch of people that volunteer and we do a TDY class of, say, 20 guards, we're only going to pick the top people out of that.
to go and start their training. So it's kind of like a selection process of picking who we think has potential to be a guard. So how having this honor, and it is an honor, of being this guard, how has it made you reflect upon Memorial Day and this weekend?
Oh, it's completely changed my outlook as far as Memorial Day. You know, before, I can't even remember, you know, I've been in for 15 years now, so I can't remember back before I joined, but I know that honoring service members that have been killed in combat was the last thing on my mind when Memorial Day weekend came along 15 years ago. In fact, probably 10 years ago. Even when I first started
out as a private, um, I looked at Memorial day as a four day weekend, like, like many other people do. Uh, but being, uh, being in Arlington national cemetery for a large portion of my career and seeing, uh,
seeing people buried there, walking through the headstones every single day, the interactions that you have with people that have come to the tomb, not just to see the guard, but they really actually do appreciate and understand the meaning behind the unknown soldiers has completely changed the way that I see Memorial Day. And so now...
You know, I don't focus on the four-day weekend and the barbecuing and enjoying it. I try and educate the public on what it actually means, and I try and honor those that have came before me to the best of my ability. This is sacred ground, isn't it, in Arlington Cemetery? It really is. It's the most—it's a very powerful place, probably the most emotional place I've ever visited. As our time closes here, you're recruiting now in Wyoming, correct? Correct.
I am, yes. Is it as hard to recruit people for the Army as we're reading about from Congress and in the newspapers?
You know, I'm not really sure. Wyoming is full of patriots. I think the hardest obstacle we've come across in recruiting isn't finding people that want to join. It's finding qualified people that want to join. I talk to people every day. The hardest thing that I can do is tell somebody that they'll never be able to join.
join the military because of law violations that they made 10 years ago or a medical disqualifier. That's probably one of the toughest parts about recruiting. Well, Shane, we thank you for your service. We appreciate you coming on today. I think this is very beneficial for our listeners. They just don't know what it is. And we hope you have a great Memorial weekend. And thank you for your service to our country. Thank you. I hope you do, too. Take care.
Well, Sam, it was really good stuff. It is really good stuff. I don't know if you've ever seen the videos of what they do there or anything. Oh, it's incredible. Go look that up if you haven't. I mean, these he really, I thought, undersold the standard that those tomb guards are held to. You want to talk about people who have to have everything in order. Well, we'll do it right. Yeah, we'll put we'll put this on his website. It was, you know, Googled some articles on him, actually. And it's a nine month training program.
to be, to, to get this responsibility. And he said, everything on the uniform is measured to one 64th of an inch. That is how much attention they pay to detail.
It's amazing. That's amazing. That seems like there's a good group of them I want to hire. I mean, talk about Mark here. I mean, when you're paying one 64th of an inch detail to your uniform, it's probably a person you can give some responsibilities to. When you're that squared away, I'm going to trust you with a lot of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sam, who do we have for our next guest? Well, speaking of getting life squared away, our next guest is Jeff Taylor. He was a stock options trader on Wall Street.
Years later, drugs ended up kind of running his life. He ended up living under a bush here in Phoenix. Oh, my gosh. He's battled addictions, been into jail, jailed.
But he was given a second chance attending the Salvation Army Treatment Program. He credits it with saving his life. He's been working since really to bring a positive impact to the community in addressing homelessness and the drug abuse crisis that we're facing on the street. And so we are really excited to have him on the program. Obviously, shifting gears a little bit around the Memorial Day stuff. But as you're out there on Memorial Day, there's a lot of folks that are –
going to be panhandling out there. And we'll, we'll touch on that too. And the things you can do to actually help people, folks, take a look around. So let's make Jeremy, do we have Jeff on the line? Jeff, are you there? Hello, Sam. How are you doing, my friend? Good. How are you?
I'm doing well, thank you. And you have to put an S on the end of jail. Okay, so several jails. So jails. Just one. You must really like the food. Is that what this boils down to? The food is fantastic?
You know, I was in four different county jails, so I was, you know, thinking about writing a, you know, like a travel guide of the jail. Yelp review. Wait, I never even thought to ask about this, but did you end up getting some of Sheriff Joe's green bologna sandwich?
Absolutely. And I actually had a conversation. Yeah, I had a conversation with Sheriff Arpaio when I had gone through a court-ordered treatment program, the Salvation Army six-month residential program. And I approached him, and I'm wearing a suit, and I'm looking professional. And we were talking about getting women who have a history of addiction that are pregnant out of the tent. They were in the tent, and I don't
I don't know if you all know about how the tents operated, but basically you were just fenced in. And quite frankly, drugs just flew over the fence wall every night. We actually had a client that said, I love the tent. He was walking along at like nine o'clock at night. I wondered because honestly, you did hear all the time about how inmates liked those tents city better than the jail. Yeah. Oh,
Oh, much better. And he got hit in the head with a softball that was hollowed out with a bunch of narcotics inside. And he's like, I love jail. There is a God. I'm just walking along and I get hit in the head with a bundle full of drugs. But anyway, back to my meeting with Sheriff Arpaio is that I was talking about
releasing women into this marvelous program that Salvation Army ran for pregnant mothers to keep families intact and treat the drug problem with mom. And why this was so important is Arizona had become the number one child removal state in the nation. And that is just kind of taking the, we built a child removal system, really.
Because you strip the mom of her child, she's going to run to the drug house. She's going to continue her high risk behaviors, likely have more children that we can take away. And we had removed so many children. We ran out of foster parents and now we put them in group homes. And those children had grown up, you know, in the next five or six years, enough like mom and dad.
to have children that we can take away. So this was an option that I presented to the sheriff and at the end of our meeting, you know, and he had no idea that I'd been in his jail. And the end of the meeting, I said, you know, I've been in your jail sheriff. And he looked at me and got all excited. And he was like, see, my get tough programs work. Look at you. You're a success today. And, and,
And I said, you know, his whole idea was we're going to treat you so poorly that you're not going to come back and reduce your stativism that way. So I told the sheriff, I said, Sheriff, your jail was so tough, I only went back four times. What did he say? He invited me to speak at his annual banquet. He loved it. And so I was...
His keynote speaker at his annual banquet, which I really enjoyed. He's an interesting cat in person. I got to give him that. Oh, he was wonderful. He released 28 women from Maricopa County Jail into the program. And of the 28, most of these women are homeless.
You know, prior to their incarceration or what we call couch hoppers. You know, the federal guideline is that your name is not a lease or it's not on a deed. And then therefore, you know, you're you're designated homeless and there's some other qualifications there. But anyway, of the 28 women, 27 delivered a drug free baby that were pregnant. Oh, that's fantastic. So.
It was a marvelous, successful program and really partnership with the sheriff. Well, in talking about that program, one of the real reasons we wanted to have you on is we've recently gotten this year's point in time count shows another big increase in homelessness here in Arizona. And one of the things that has frustrated me with this is the way we do not make enough use of programs like the Salvation Army. Right.
Right. So you work with them a lot. If someone is homeless in Phoenix today, right now, can they get a bed at the Salvation Army?
Yes, they can. We have an intake process. The problem is that most drug treatment facilities that offer housing or a residential facility, they are not, now some are, but most are not medical facilities. So what we're dealing with is likely a fentanyl addict and that requires medical detox.
So we have to get most of these. Well, it's not most. It's about 30 to maybe 40 percent of people that are homeless that come to our door that have to have medical detox.
So we then have to arrange the medical detox, which usually takes three to five days, and then they can come back into our facility. Because, you know, withdrawal from massive amounts of fentanyl is very dangerous. And fentanyl has changed that treatment paradigm, right? I mean, I was reading something where a social worker in San Francisco was saying, well, I can't put them on the bus home because they'll be having a...
reaction before they even get out of California. They'll be going into withdrawal, seizures, things of this nature. Oh, within hours. Within hours. And, you know, the point in time, we all know that it's accurate in that it shows growth, but it is completely undercounted. So whatever our point in time is, there's probably double or even triple the amount of people that are actually living on the streets. Do you feel the drug crisis in
in our country now is worse than it was when you first went through your first addiction and recovery?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Back in when I was basically sentenced to the Salvation Army by Arizona Supreme Court, it was a strong recommendation by the court, by the way. It was strongly recommended. But it did divert me from a prison term, which was great, because what I would find out is whenever I was incarcerated, I was released with the same drug problem that I was arrested with.
So and back to your question, Sam, is that the the fentanyl crisis? Well, both your questions, the fentanyl crisis has completely changed the game. So up until, you know, fentanyl in the last three or four years, it was two, three, four hundred dollars a day.
to be a cocaine, methamphetamine, or opiate addict. That was, well, it all kind of really got off the rails with OxyContin, which is pill form heroin, basically. And that was a very expensive pill. That pill, depending on its potency, was $40, $50, or $60 on the street. That equivalent pill right now on the streets of Phoenix is $1. And that's the...
That's the game changer. So when people came into treatment, they were just sick and tired of trying to raise two, three, four hundred dollars a day. They were broke. You know, that's a lot of yeah, a lot of retail theft. You know, that property crime in not only our state, I would say 90 percent of our property crime or organized retail theft is due to what we call drug motivated crime.
And that's what we're seeing in San Francisco, all up and down the coast, Seattle. You know, some of the staple, you know, Nordstrom's just shut down in two stores. I think there are remaining two stores in San Francisco because the high degree of theft there. And it's all organized retail theft. It's unbelievable, Jeff. Two points. We have a few minutes left here, but two points I specifically wanted to get to because you can talk about this extensively.
than, frankly, almost anyone I know around here. One of the reasons that you have a bed at the Salvation Army is that you put some basic requirements on it, asking people to be active participants in getting their lives back on track. And that essentially then means the government doesn't count you when they're looking at the total number of shelter beds available. They say, hey, all our shelter beds are full.
It really just means all the shelter beds that people can go to without any conditions at all are full, right? Correct. And that has a purpose because it's a huge leap. So let's talk about the zone for a moment, Sam, which you and I have had many conversations about. So you have somebody who's living in an encampment. Okay.
OK, we need to not call that unsheltered people. What we need to call that is untreated drug addiction, untreated mental illness or some combination of both. And that is 98 percent of your population living not only in the zone, but in homeless encampments all throughout the valley. The people that folks would actually think of as homeless, because I always say to people, there's a huge homeless population that we don't think of and don't see because they don't look homeless.
and act like that they are the couch surfer so that I'm living in the back of my car in the parking lot at the gym or whatever.
Exactly. And so when we quantify or we really have to define homelessness, so there's we can't throw it all into one bucket. So, for example, you have the family that's being hit by high inflation. When we look at the family that is living on the edge, what we call the one paycheck away people, look what has happened to their spendable income. Grocery prices here in Arizona, I'm certain, are up around 12 to 15 percent.
Energy prices have almost doubled in the last four years. That's gas in your car. And then look at what rent prices have done. Oh, my gosh. So that is hit the family huge. You look at you look at food, you look at gas and you look at rent. OK, and those have all hit these families extremely hard. OK, so that's a different population. That's a big problem, too. Then
Then you have the elderly, same thing. They're on a fixed income. Maybe they work their entire lives. They're getting $1,800 in Social Security. Rents have almost doubled. Same thing, gas. Everything has hit them very hard, too. So we have the elderly, which is a big problem now. But I think for our conversation today, Sam, we're talking about the visible homeless on the streets of Phoenix.
And that population has a huge, and I really want to get this across, is that these are not people that got priced out of an apartment, okay? These are people living in the zone. They didn't get priced out of an apartment. They'll tell you that when the media goes down and interviews them. They're really good at giving the city workers and the social workers and the media the story that they all want to tell to the public, right?
Oh, and I was the best at it. I mean, I would make them feel sorry for me, all this hardship, you know, that I'm experiencing living in a bush. And, but you know what? It was a pretty cool bush. I got to tell you, it's like any real estate that I was living in. It's location, location, location. I've lived in an apartment once that I probably would have traded for a good bush.
But the key is, is that people that graduate from drug treatment programs that are highly monitored, that you're verifying sobriety, that are typically long term, 30 days is not going to work. You know, the old 30 day or 28 day program is not going to work for this population. They need longer term care. But when they are graduating, they are stable. We have taught them at Salvation Army a work ethic.
We really call it work therapy. They get up and they work in our warehouse, in our thrift store network, which funds their treatment.
So they're earning that treatment bed, which gives them a great self-esteem boost. If this is just a government bed that's gifted to you, you don't feel a good sense of self-worth about that. So you are treated in the afternoons and in the evenings with your behavioral health problem, which is drug addiction, but you get up every day and you go to work. In the end, we don't have problems getting people housed. You know,
If they're super low income, then we do what is called roommate matching. So they've lived together for four, five, six months. They know who gets along with who. And we can get them into an apartment, two-bedroom apartment, and they share the utilities and the rent. And it's not a big problem. It's a bigger strain because rents are higher, but it's just not a problem.
We're getting people housed. We're getting them. We're treating their drug problem first. How often if you get someone who's, you know, either they get clean or they never get into the drugs and they're, you know, they do not need mental health treatment, at least, you know, significant mental health treatment, right? Lots of people have traumas and things they need to address. But how often when you get someone to that point, are you able to get their life turned around? It's a pretty, pretty effective thing at that point, right? Yeah.
Yes, the drug problem has to be taken care of first. And right now, because of fentanyl, you have to look at what fentanyl does to the brain. It robs people of their ability to care.
That's when you see someone who doesn't shower or uses the world as their bathroom. And they just have been robbed of their ability. It just numbs that part of your brain that you care, that you even care about yourself. That's what this drug is doing to people. It is robbing them of their soul.
And so we have a saying, you know, at Salvation Army, and it was given to me when I first walked in, is that we are going to love you until you learn to love yourself. Now, you have to abide by all these rules, you know, which are, you know, it's a very, you can lose control of this population very quickly. For instance, if one person goes out on a pass or goes out to a 12-step meeting, comes back, we have a suspicion that they, you know, are under the influence, and that person is drug tested and breathalyzed.
And if that person comes up, you know, positive on either one, we drug test the whole, you know, population in the house. It is a safe environment because there isn't any safe environment. You know, drugs are everywhere. You know, you can buy 100 pills for 100 bucks. That's just scary. That's insanity. You know.
Yeah, it really is. I mean, how dangerous. And that used to be two pills. That used to be two pills, you know, when it was OxyContin. Or, you know, it would be 200 bucks, you know, for, you know, a couple of a day of heroin. And now you can get 100 very powerful fentanyl pills for 100 bucks, a fraction of the cost. Incredible. So that's why it is such a danger. And this is going to get worse before it gets better. Yeah. But your point.
I don't see it getting better. And to my point is that in San Francisco, we have encampments. They get attracted by the Salvation Army shield. So we have encampments three, four deep surrounding our drug treatment building. Not only in San Francisco, Oakland is actually actually worse.
And they would rather live in squalor than walk in the door and have a free residential drug treatment bed, what we call, again, work therapy, right inside the doors. And we have empty beds. There's a reason they call it addictions. We're with Jeff Taylor of Salvation Army. Jeff, we need to get you in the studio and have a longer conversation one day. We're out of time here, but this has been fantastic, and we appreciate you coming on. Is there a number...
or an address people should go to if they want to come to the Salvation Army and seek help?
Oh, we lost him. We lost Jeff. Yep. All right. Well, Sam, fantastic show today. Yeah, really, really good show. And we appreciate it. Folks, please feel free to download this, rate our podcast, share our podcast, and visit us at BreakingBattlegrounds.vote, and we'll be back with you next week, hopefully with the debt ceiling negotiations finished. Yes. And, folks, we will put on our social media—
we will put on our social media ways to donate to the Salvation Army and other ways that you can contribute. It's really important. Do not give to the panhandlers. I know that it's hard sometimes to turn them down, but you are just feeding those addictions. Really important to go give your money through a valid source. And before we go, Chuck, you had a clip we're going to lead out with here. Based on Memorial Day weekend, we have a clip Ronald Reagan
feel free to listen to it folks we think you really enjoy it have a fantastic weekend sometime back I received in the name of our country the bodies of four marines who had died while on active duty I said then that there is a special sadness that accompanies the death of a serviceman for we're never quite good enough to them not really we can't be because what they gave us is beyond our powers to repay and so when a serviceman dies it's a tear in the fabric
a break in the hold. All we can do is remember. It is, in a way, an odd thing to honor those who died in defense of our country, in defense of us, in wars far away. Imagination plays a trick. We see these soldiers in our mind as old and wise. We see them as something like the Founding Fathers, gray and gray-haired. But most of them were boys when they died, and they gave up two lives, the one they were living with,
and the one they would have lived. When they died, they gave up their chance to be husbands and fathers and grandfathers. They gave up their chance to be revered old men. They gave up everything for our country, for us. We owe them a debt we can never repay. All we can do is remember them and what they did and why they had to be brave for us.
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