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This season of the Talking Transitions podcast focuses on the energy sector. Brought to you by EY and Foresight Climate and Energy, we look at the main considerations and hurdles the shift to a sustainable society is facing, including financing, infrastructure, empowering consumers, and security of supply. We also delve into exciting new aspects of the energy transition, like the budding hydrogen economy and the use of AI.
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The ads suggest it, but now we're hearing it straight from the CEO. Abercrombie & Fitch doesn't want larger women wearing its clothes, so it won't even stock sizes larger than a 10. You know what I say to that? Oh, Fitch, please.
You may have heard the headlines about Abercrombie & Fitch over the years. This isn't the first time there's been controversy about Abercrombie & Fitch. In 2004, it paid an out-of-court settlement of $40 million to former employees who claimed they were given backroom jobs because of the colour of their skin. The man in charge during this time was Mike Jeffries, the brand's modern-day founder.
He was a pretty controversial figure, as CEOs go. Has not CEO Mike Jeffries himself said that we go after the attractive all-American kid with a great attitude and a lot of friends? A lot of people don't belong in our clothes and they can't belong. But what was once considered cool...
became deeply uncool. On Friday, analysts are forecasting disappointing results for Abercrombie & Fitch as the company still remains under fire for its CEO's controversial comments. The man whose vision had made the brand billions was now seen as toxic.
and sales were falling abercrombie and fitch founder mike jeffries is stepping down as a ceo that is effective immediately the retailer in 2014 mike jeffries left abercrombie and fitch after working there for 22 years it's so true though if you're making money for everyone and you're rich and you say the weird things and you do weird things you're like an eccentric genius but once you start
Losing? Yes. Then you're just... You're geared. Yes, you're not quite as tough. We already know there were controversies around Mike Jeffries. And since he left, Abercrombie & Fitch has gone through a pretty major rebrand. But I'm trying to go much deeper to find out what else could have been going on during Mike Jeffries' reign. When I hear allegations like those made by Barrett Poole,
I can usually find a few loose threads online, something to pull at to help the story unravel. But with the Abercrombie guys, Geoffrey isn't his British partner, Matthew Smith. There's nothing. No gossip, no rumours, and certainly no talk about the events I'm investigating.
But maybe this shouldn't be much of a surprise, given what Barrett's described. You know, it's all very secretive. This is not something that they want everyone to know that's going on. This is a well-oiled, perfectly executed machine. I quickly realise I'm not going to solve this by tapping away on my laptop. I've got to get on the ground and start knocking on doors. But people are nervous about talking.
Well, that was an absolute disaster. He basically said he'd signed a non-disclosure agreement, but that he'd had some good times, some fun times, some strange times. But yeah, he absolutely refused to talk. I've travelled to Columbus, Ohio, in America's Midwest.
It's here that Abercrombie & Fitch has had its headquarters for more than 20 years. It's also where Mike Jeffries lived for much of the time he was in charge, and where many of his former staff still live. Hi, it's Rhianna calling. Thank you so much for getting back to me. I appreciate it was a bit weird for me to have left something through your mailbox, but...
Finally, a breakthrough. Someone who had a front row seat during Mike Jeffries' time as Abercrombie's CEO, who says she's willing to speak to me. My job was to pay attention to every single thing that Mike wanted and needed. Mike was always working, so I don't get the impression that he was ever just...
sitting back on a beach with a book and a Mai Tai. I just don't think that was how he spent his weekends. From the BBC, this is World of Secrets. Season one, the Abercrombie guys, with me, Rhianna Croxford. A BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Panorama investigation. Episode two, who is Mike Jeffries?
Abercrombie & Fitch wasn't always in the business of selling polo shirts and jean skirts to the popular kids. It was founded in 1892, and back then it catered to rich Americans, even presidents, selling everything from croquet sets and camping equipment to hunting rifles. But after nearly 100 years in business, Abercrombie & Fitch's fortunes began to fall, and it eventually went bankrupt.
It was saved by Les Wexner, an Ohio retail mogul, the so-called Merlin of the Mall, the man behind brands like Victoria's Secret.
In 1992, Les Wexner brings in Mike Jeffries as his new CEO. I want to look at this guy too. I mean, a lot of people say, look, he's weird, probably insane, but he's also unbelievably brilliant and extremely driven. Mike Jeffries has a vision to reinvent Abercrombie from a stuffy sportswear brand into one oozing sex appeal. Some stores offer discounts, others freebies, but only one is drawing in shoppers with half-naked models. What's up, man?
And it works. He built this brand from basically no revenue to $4.5 billion. Mike Jeffries takes the preppy look and dials up the sex factor, turning Abercrombie into the must-have label for high school girls, jocks and gay guys alike.
he creates a fashion empire, inventing brands like Hollister and Gilly Hicks. The company's provocative magazines and billboards were impossible to ignore and soon came under fire for their soft core sales pitch. These Abercrombie and Fitch people, they're like these perverts. They market near porn to tweens and teens.
But as the brand's fortunes boom, Jefferies is unapologetic. "Are we exclusionary? Absolutely," he tells Salon magazine in a rare print interview in 2006. Mike Jefferies didn't talk to the media much, but he was filmed by a BBC documentary team while visiting a tailor on London's Savile Row, a street famous for its high-end suit makers.
It's where he was opening Abercrombie's first UK store, the one I queued up outside as a teenager. Mike Jeffries has made Abercrombie & Fitch a multi-billion dollar success story. Now he can fulfil a long-held ambition. I've never been able to buy a suit. I can now, it's very nice. Even though he's in his 60s at the time, Mike Jeffries is still rocking a boyish Southern Californian look, tanned with bleach blonde hair and...
Looks like he may have had a bit of work done on his face. He stands in front of a full-length mirror as a tailor adjusts the shoulder seams on a dark blue suit. The camera pads down to his feet, toes out in a pair of flip-flops. Why have you never been able to buy a suit here? I couldn't afford it. Hmm...
Press reports say that, as head of Abercrombie & Fitch, Mike Jeffries once took home more than $71 million in a single year. Jeffries has but one store outside North America. It's time for the big question. Why Savile Row? And why now? ♪
Spoiler alert, they're not. The Savile Rose store actually closed a couple of years back.
But this interview gives rare insight into Mike Jeffries' mindset. He really believed his vision of ripped jeans and sexy slogan tees would stand the test of time. After all, he had a tried and tested formula. Sexy clothes on sexy people was what they were after. The merchants and designers and everybody were trying to get in front of Mike to have him say...
yes, this is sexy. That was entirely the goal. This is Katie Hurtet. These days, she's a therapist working with people who have experienced trauma. But when I find her on LinkedIn, I'm also interested in what she used to do.
You see, in 2004, Katie was hired as Mike Jeffries' assistant at Abercrombie & Fitch HQ, based in New Albany, on the edge of Columbus. It was incredibly wild for me. I'm from a tiny little town in Ohio where I knew about the brand because the cool kids at school wore it. I couldn't afford it. But I knew about the brand because I knew about the brand.
But I definitely was pretty excited to get a job in fashion. My job was to pay attention to every single thing that Mike wanted and needed. Katie worked with Mike Jeffries really closely. So if anyone can help me figure this man out, it's her. It was.
It was a very work hard, play hard kind of place. We were trying to be the very coolest, sexiest brand out there. It was his vision, his goal, his passion, his dream. It was everything to him.
Mike was tireless, very energetic and boisterous. He just really was a very commanding presence. He's tall and he's a broad-shouldered man as well. So he cut a very imposing figure to walk into a room. Katie says Mike Jeffries didn't just create the brand, he was the brand.
And that's why Abercrombie & Fitch described him as their modern founder, the heart and soul of the company. I mean, he would wear A&F blue jeans in a navy or white polo shirt, A&F mousse prominently every single time, and leather flip-flops, leather belt. He would wear flip-flops every single day? Every single day. Even in winter? Absolutely.
for sure. She also tells me Mike Jeffries is incredibly superstitious. The flip-flops became a bit of a trademark and the only time he'd ditch them was a change into his lucky tods, a beat-up pair of luxury Italian driving moccasins.
which he says he wore to read the company's financial reports. They were his lucky shoes and they were very well known. And what piece fell off one time, we had to try and scramble to find somewhere on campus. And there was a sort of frantic email sent by the executive assistant and then the piece was found by some lucky employee. The Abercrombie campus is a sprawling site of glass and timber buildings...
with a mock A&F store, a replica of the ones in malls across the world, with dark wooden panelling and blaring music. There was fierce cologne in the entryway. There were handsome guys in polo shirts tossing a football around sometimes. It felt like you were walking through the quad on a really cool college campus. I managed to track down one of these handsome guys.
a former model who ended up working at A&F HQ. His name's Carl Swanson. We meet for coffee and talk about his time in the industry. He knows fashion can be an exploitative business, but says he only had a positive experience working at A&F. I worked at Abercrombie & Fitch from 2001 to 2009 in total.
Had a lot of roles there, everything from working in the store, shirtless greeter, as an actual model, did the campaign in 2007. I worked at the home office, at the front desk. I worked in Mike's office. You sound like an A&F lifer, almost. Kind of, yeah. My dog's name was Fitch. Yep, his dog was called Fitch.
and he met his wife while working on the shop floor. They even have a mousses head from one of the stores mounted in their lounge, a life-size version of the company's famous logo. So it's fair to say Abercrombie played a huge part in his life. And like Katie, Carl was right in the thick of it during Mike Jeffries' time as CEO. He was...
I would say hyper detail oriented. Well, when it comes to building a brand, he's really good at it. Aspirational. That's a word he used to always use. So far, I've only heard good things about Mike Jeffries from his former colleagues at Abercrombie HQ. Sure, he has some superstitious quirks. He works seriously long hours and he's totally obsessed with the company. Though I imagine most CEOs are.
But what about his life outside of the office? Mike Jeffries got married in the 1970s and has a grown-up son. His wife was well-known by the staff at Abercrombie HQ. I'd have to call her every now and then. She's super nice. I didn't really understand the scope of their relationship because I knew that they weren't actually together, but it seemed like he treated her very well.
and cared for what she needed. And that was actually kind of surprising to me. Just because I knew she wasn't actually a part of his life. At least it seemed from the view that I had. Because by this time, Mike Jeffries is in another relationship. In 1989, before he becomes CEO of Abercrombie, he meets a British man called Matthew Smith. And sometime after that, they get together.
Katie Hurtet, Mike's former assistant at Abercrombie HQ, certainly spoke to Matthew quite a lot, talking on the phone most days. I was introduced to Matthew Smith as Mike's partner, but also the head of the Jeffries family office. That's a private company that manages Mike Jeffries' personal finances and many homes, including his former properties in Ohio, Manhattan and the Hamptons.
Matthew Smith ran the Jeffreys family office day to day and almost every staffer I've spoken to describes him in exactly the same way. Older British gentleman, he was just really polite and kind and
Easy going. Pretty easy going, actually. Mike brought a lot of intensity into anything that he did and Matthew was very chill in comparison. Katie also mentions that she wasn't Mike Jeffries' only assistant. While she worked at Abercrombie HQ, there were others who worked for him in the family office. Young men dressed head-to-toe in A&F clothing, running errands or chauffeuring around the couple's French bulldogs.
They sound very much like the men that Barrett says drove him out to the Hamptons. He described them as chaperones, but Katie says their official title was housemen. They were almost exclusively white boys, as I recall, with brown hair. And they would generally be wearing almost exactly what Mike was wearing. The jeans of the season, the leather belt, the flip-flops, the polo shirt.
The guys who worked at the house were like a pack of Labrador retrievers. They were really just smiling and energetic and like, hey, how's it going? Like, what's up? How you been? Hey, thanks for hanging out for two seconds while I dropped off these keys. Like, they were just really sweet-natured and kind of bubbly dudes.
Carl Swanson, who also worked at Abercrombie HQ, says he used to run into the housemen too. One of them was someone he knew from his time as an Abercrombie model. One of the other guys that worked there, he actually did the same campaign shoot that I was on. A lot of them seemed like
Guys exactly like me, some from a modelling background or whatever it might be. I've been told many of the housemen who worked in Mike Jeffries' homes were actually models, hired through an agency that specialises in providing household staff. If you ever need beautiful people to dish out canapes, drive your limo or serve champagne on your private jet, they're the people you might call.
You're going to hear a lot about the housemen as this investigation unfolds. But looking back, Katie says his entourage now seems a little odd. I would probably scratch my head a little bit more and wonder why models were the people washing the car.
Having worked on the Abercrombie side of things rather than in the family office, Katie says she didn't really know much about Mike Jeffery's life outside of work.
But she organised his travel, so she usually knew exactly where he was in the world at any given time. Mike spent nearly every weekend in New York. He would leave on Fridays, he'd head straight from the campus down to the airport and take the jet out to New York. And other times they would go out to the Hamptons. So they would take the Abercrombie & Fitch jet to New York? Yes.
Abercrombie and Fitch had an agreement with the Jeffries family office that allowed Mike Jeffries to use a corporate jet outside of work. And he'd often fly from Ohio to New York at the end of the week. I don't know how he was filling his weekends other than shopping and thinking about the brand. Mike was always working. So I don't get the impression that even if he was out in the Hamptons, that he was ever just sitting back on a
beach with a book and a Mai Tai. Like, I just don't think that that was how he spent his weekends. My visit to Ohio proves to be time well spent. I find some new leads that I'm hoping will get me closer to that ever-present entourage of housemen working for Mike Jeffries.
Some of them walk as dogs, run errands and drive the couple around, while others seem more involved in running events like the one Barrett described, handing out Abercrombie underwear and carrying silver platters with condoms and lube. Breaking into that inner circle might help me figure out what was going on. I guess I would just be worried that, like, you know, they're going to find out and then, like, come after me.
Like, I don't know. What if somebody takes me or kills me or some shit? I don't know. I'm surprised by how scared people are. Imaginations running riot. I've heard nothing to suggest that the Abercrombie guys could be violent, but lots of people seem freaked out about what might happen if they talk. Is that, like, a genuine concern? Well, I mean, like, when you have that much money, like, I think you can get whatever done that you want done, right?
We'll be back after this.
I had just come out of one of my bare-knuckle boxing matches. I don't know why, but the first thing that came to my brain was, what if I do a drag show? Remarkable personal stories told by the people that lived them. I could easily have pulled that trigger, but that was not my brief. I was not an assassin. I was not told to do that. I was not told to murder him. Lives Less Ordinary from the BBC World Service. Find it wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
This season of the Talking Transitions podcast focuses on the energy sector.
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You know, there's a thing this big that I signed. I don't know what it says. I didn't read it. Was that, like, an employment contract? NDA. I'm going against it right now. Another man sworn to secrecy. He worked in Mike Jeffries' mansion and is terrified about talking because he signed a non-disclosure agreement. He insists on being anonymous. We're going to call him Tom, and the voice you're hearing is an actor.
Producer Ruth and I drive to meet him at a diner in the middle of nowhere. A random location off the freeway, that kind of scene. Tom says he wants to talk because he had a gut feeling that something was off with the Abercrombie guys. For instance... They were so controlling. We had to wear a certain outfit. So it was like blue jeans from Abercrombie, a blue polo from Abercrombie and flip-flops from Abercrombie.
They had them in the snow and flip-flops, and you'd see this group of like 15 people all wearing the exact same outfit. It's ridiculous. And nobody looked good in it. As weird as the job was, Tom tells me he was pretty well paid. But working in the Hamptons, he says, was exhausting. The house was to be absolutely perfect. There was never to be anything out of place. There were measurements made of how everything was to be this amount of inches from the wall, this amount of inches from there.
They would repaint the house over and over and over and over again. Tom also says Mike Jeffries was as obsessive at home as he was said to be at work. He had like all these little things that he would carry around in his pockets. A little tiny pencil, a little piece of paper. And he would, when he was walking down the stairs, he would step a certain amount of times, like real obsessive.
Certain ways that he would get into the car, you know? All these sort of little, little intricacies. Tom says he was part of a machine that ensured every single moment was planned for, every need anticipated and attended to immediately. These super elite, ultra wealthy people that are always getting whatever they want. Once you're at that level of money and you just point to stuff and it comes to you,
And there's all these staff and people helping you do it. It's like you just become very inhuman, you know? You just lose track of like that these are actual people with lives and stuff. I mean, I remember they excavated the entire yard, like half an acre. And they planted all white roses in perfect squares like an English garden. And then Michael showed up and he didn't like them. They ripped them all out and replanted them in a different color.
And that, in a way, was what it was like to be an employee. If you weren't the right thing, we'll see you later. I can't help thinking of Alice in Wonderland and the playing card courtiers painting the white roses crimson, terrified of the Queen of Hearts. But then Tom mentions a detail that seems really important.
He pauses before almost whispering that every Saturday, he and the other regular staff at Mike Jeffries Hampton's mansion were told to leave. We were to be off the premises at 11 o'clock and we could come back at like 4.30 or 5.30 or something. So we were kept in the dark as to what was occurring.
It reminds me of something Barrett said he was told by a houseman when he was at the Hamptons' house. The staff that maintains the house, all those different people who, you know, maintain these multi-million dollar Hampton homes...
are all off for their lunch. So the house is empty and quiet for all of this to then go on super secretly. Tom says the staff would go back to the cheap hotel where they would piss up and hang out by the pool or go to the beach. It was sort of like a break for us. At first, it was sort of just like a chance for them to have some privacy, you know, as a chance for them to have the house with no one in it.
And then that sort of converted into, OK, well, there's going to be these people here. You know, like, these two guys are going to come. These guys are part of what Tom calls the afternoon shift, a smaller group of housemen who turned up as everyone else was leaving.
Tom says he quickly learned from his colleagues not to ask questions about these other housemen or what happened while they were away. It was very hush-hush. There was an eeriness to it, you know? There was something about it that was just strange. And if it was so not a big deal, why wouldn't anybody ever talk about it? What happened in there? It makes your mind wonder, like, why did we have to leave? Who are these guys? I'm asking the exact same questions. ♪
The striking thing is, Tom says this wasn't an occasional thing. It happened pretty much every Saturday, the regular staff being told to leave for most of the day. I tracked down another former houseman who worked at the Hamptons' mansion and give him a call. He doesn't want to do an interview, even if he's anonymous, but he describes exactly the same scenario.
He says the other housemen told him they all had to leave because Mike Jeffries was having playtime and core boys were coming over. But that's not how Barrett saw himself. I am pro-sex work. I am pro-sex workers. That's not what this was. I don't feel like I had a real choice. I don't think I had anyone properly informing me. It was a system, a well-oiled system.
A well-oiled system. From what Barrett's told me, it involved a recruiter, a middleman, a personal groomer, drivers, NDAs, quite an operation. But where's the evidence? Well, remember Barrett said he had an old iPad from the time he met the Abercrombie guys? Oh my gosh, I see light. So we have the apple and just the apple. I don't even know what that means.
The iPad that didn't work. After we said goodbye, Barrett let producer Ruth and I take the iPad with us and we tried to get it fixed. It took a while, but it's now come back. So, let's see. OK, it's turning on. It's always the risk of this being anti-climatic, isn't it? We pour over the iPad. At first, it looks like there's nothing on it. Calendar.
Until we start going through the calendar and find a handful of entries. Oh, hang on. Hang on. Oh, my word. NYC Abercrombie. There's one entry that stands out. 6th May, 2011. Abercrombie guys, New York. Was this one of the weekends Mike Jeffries had playtime? Hi! Hey!
We jump on a Zoom with Barrett. If it's New York City, then that's what it's got to be. That's like what it has to be. Oh my gosh. Now that we have an exact date to narrow the search, Barrett scrolls back through his old emails to see what he can find. Hold on one second. I'm going to throw up. What? I think I just found everything we've been looking for.
What do you mean? I have an email. Please check, attach for the correct information. Get back to me if anything needs to be changed or if all is correct. XOXO, Jim. It's an email from Jim, the man Barrett said wore a snakeskin patch on his nose, who he met at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
The man he says auditioned him on behalf of Mike Jeffries and his partner, Matthew Smith, and made all the arrangements. And is that like an itinerary attached as well? Barrett takes a deep breath and reads it out loud. OK, ready? This is from Jim. Like, Barrett...
The email has Barrett's flight and hotel details, but there's more. It's all right there.
their names, their phone numbers. It's all right there. I'm like holding back like emotions. Just, I can see it in your face. Wow. I just, I'm sending this to you now. It's all right there. It's all, it's all right there. All of it.
Jim's email to Barrett contains a list of first names and phone numbers of the people at Mike Jeffries' mansion that weekend in May 2011. What's not clear is who they are, why they were there and how they got involved. There's only one way to find out. I've got to talk to them and ask them what they were doing with the Abercrombie guys.
And that's how I end up finding my loose thread, something to pull at, which leads me to another person who's ready to go on the record. A former US Marine turned reality TV star. I was brought to another country. My passport was taken. I was told to stay at this hotel and not to leave or talk to other people. I wasn't kidnapped, but I wasn't allowed to really leave either.
I thought that because I was a former Marine and I'd been trained in combat that I could protect myself, but this was much more mental than anything. I kept telling myself I was in control and it was fine, but the reality was I wasn't. That's next time on The Abercrombie Guys. Thanks for listening to The World of Secrets podcast, season one, The Abercrombie Guys, from BBC Radio 5 Live and Panorama.
If you've enjoyed this episode, then please tell a friend, spread the word, and even better, write a review. And let us know what you think of the series using the hashtag World of Secrets. You can write to me and the team at Rianna, that's R-I-A-N-N-A, at bbc.com. The Abercrombie Guys is presented and investigated by me, Rianna Croxford. The podcast producers are Ruth Evans, Ailis Hart and Emma Close.
The BBC News investigation editor is Ed Campbell and the podcast editor is Richard Fenton-Smith. Sound design and mix by Neil Churchill, Gareth Jones and Ali Rezekani. Voice over by Michael Bailenson.
Production support by Debbie Richford, Sophie Hill, Jackie Johnson and Kirsten Oliver. And technical support by Jonathan Glover and Jack Willis. The World of Secrets theme music is by Jeremy Wormsley. This podcast is made in collaboration with BBC Panorama. The editor is Karen Whiteman, executive producer is Tom Stone and the producer is Kate Brown.
The Abercrombie Guys is a BBC News long-form audio production for BBC Sounds. The head of long-form audio is Emma Riffin and the deputy head of BBC Current Affairs is Jim Gray. The commissioning editor at BBC Sounds is Dylan Haskins and commissioning executive is Louise Catton-Horne.
The assistant commissioner is Natasha Johansson. With thanks to Hannah Livingston, Joe Kent, Adam Walker and Paul Myers. And thank you to everyone who spoke to us for this investigation. We can't tell stories like this without you. Thank you for listening.
A UK life coaching group destroying lives. It was like he would collect your secrets. At that point, I was scared for my safety. The total I invested was £131,000. Controlling people. It was more about apportioning blame to my parents. These toxic groups called families. Intimidating critics.
When I'd ask questions... They said, if you leave and you turn against us, we have all those personal recordings of yours. A very British cult. With me, Katrin Nye. We'll come for you next. Listen on BBC Sounds.
This season of the Talking Transitions podcast focuses on the energy sector. Brought to you by EY and Foresight Climate and Energy, we look at the main considerations and hurdles the shift to a sustainable society is facing, including financing, infrastructure, empowering consumers, and security of supply. We also delve into exciting new aspects of the energy transition, like the budding hydrogen economy and the use of AI. Listen to the conversation with EY and Foresight Climate and Energy.
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