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BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hi, thanks for listening to World of Secrets. I'm Rhianna Croxford and before we start, I wanted to let you know that this episode contains strong language and references to sex and sexual violence. We'll explain what's going on in person and you will understand. Don't want to type it.
Another text pops up on my phone, the latest from a man I think may have been involved in organising events for the Abercrombie guys, A&F's modern-day founder Mike Jeffries and his British partner Matthew Smith. When I reached out to him, really just on a whim, he hinted he knows a lot, but I'm not sure what role he played in all this. And he's insisting on meeting face-to-face.
He says he's in New York, so we arrange to meet in Central Park, where I'm sat on a bench in a secluded corner by the lake. But dusk's now setting in, and the more time passes, the louder the nagging voice in my head becomes. Have I been set up? The park's now pretty empty, and I start to feel uneasy, and share my live location with my editor back in London, just in case. I'm nearly there.
I'll explain when we meet and you will understand. Another text, just as cryptic. By this time, I've been waiting hours and he's still not showed. And I'm starting to wonder, what am I doing here? I send a text back with a new location. A local restaurant, a short walk from the park. When my source finally arrives, he's super jumpy and he's making me nervous.
His opening gambit isn't particularly reassuring either. I can't believe people are starting to snitch after all this time. I look at him puzzled. I mean, I just thought this would never come up. Then, oh shit, you found me. We grab a table at the back of the restaurant. I slide my phone across and begin recording, mindful of the waiter hovering nearby.
He's open to talking, but only if we protect his identity. So my recording is to help me take notes, and his words are spoken by an actor. It's clear he knows how this operation works, and how the Abercrombie guys go about finding young men. He starts telling me more about what he's been told about their middleman. Jim's worked for them for a number of years.
He's the eyes and ears for the couple. You got to get through him. He had a place in Wisconsin where he went duck hunting with his dog or whatever. And when he went back there, he'd just drive through the Midwest where he was coming across good looking boys in these smaller towns. He might have had other things to do. I'm not sure. But the main purpose really was to recruit people that haven't been scouted before.
This is new to me, the idea of Jim scouring small-town America for young men, for Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith. Though just to be clear, everyone in this investigation is an adult. My source tells me he first got to know Jim a decade ago, and this is what he understands about how he operated. He ended up being their main guy. Maybe they liked his taste, but they paid him to bring the boys and make sure there were no hang-ups.
How do you know they were paying him to find guys? Oh, he told me that. So his only job is to find young men for Mike Jeffries? Yeah, from what he told me. I mean, if he had another job, I wasn't aware of it. His job was busy at the time, so he always has to be on his toes, always having boys ready on deck, always having extra ones, like throwing new ones into the mix. For Jim to quote-unquote recruit,
These young boys sounds like a win-win for him because he gets to test them out. And if these boys want what he has to offer bad enough, they're going to have to give him some before he passes them on to the CEO. That's a story I've certainly heard already. But I'm still trying to figure this guy out. How does he know so much about Jim and his ties to the Abercrombie guys?
He carries on talking. I think it was pretty easy for them to get some of these boys that were from the middle of nowhere to come on these trips because that money, it's like, it's a lot of money for someone who's never been to New York. I mean, it's like, it's a lot of money even if you're in New York. But if you're just from the Midwest and you're fresh out of high school or whatever and you get this opportunity to meet with CEOs of Abercrombie & Fitch and get this money, like, a lot of people would find it hard to say no to.
He pulls out his phone and starts scrolling through, showing me all the emails he's received from Jim. Even now, he says he's amazed at how slick this operation was. It flowed like a business should. I've seen a lot of businesses that don't even flow half as good as the way they had that thing going. It seemed very professional. There was no bullshitting around or anything like that. Things just got done.
But as he's looking through his phone, his body language shifts. His broad shoulders seem smaller. I can tell he's upset. He takes a moment before telling me the real reason he's agreed to meet and what happened to him after he said he got caught up with the Abercrombie guys. I mean, I was overwhelmed. Like, I've never seen anything like this or heard of anything like this before. It's like, it was like straight out of a movie.
You can't make this shit up. From the BBC, this is World of Secrets. Season one, the Abercrombie guys, with me, Rhianna Croxford. A BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Panorama investigation. Episode five, Midnight in Marrakesh. Stepping out into New York's evening heat, what I've just been told is racing through my head.
A week after our first meeting, my source gets in touch to say he's now ready to tell me everything and agrees to record an interview, but wants to remain anonymous to protect his family. From now on, I'll call him Alex. And again, this is an actor speaking his words.
There's a number of people that were involved with this and there's a lot of people that have been kept quiet and I just feel like it's only right for me to speak up just so that they know that they're not alone. If it helps at least one person then I feel like I did what I came here to do. Alex arrives at the location where we're recording in a converted factory in the Bronx. When we first met I had a hunch that Alex was probably a model and I was right.
He tells me he got his start as a shirtless greeter working at an Abercrombie store over a decade ago. I think it was four hour shifts or something like that, like four or six, I don't know, to do absolutely nothing but stand there and take pictures with people and smile. $50 an hour, like, I never would have seen that where I was from, you know? $50 an hour, like, in any industry, that's hard to beat. At first, he says he felt lucky to have landed that job. Everyone wanted that gig.
But after a while, the novelty and buzz began to fade and it started to feel just like any other job. Yeah, it's after a while, then you feel like a piece of meat, you know, it's just like, OK, this is it. Alex thinks he was still working there when he first heard on the grapevine about this operation being run for the Abercrombie guys.
A friend of a friend from outside of work tells him he's making thousands of dollars flying all over the world with them to really nice places. I've never heard of or I've never made that much money in my life at one time. I was like, all you got to do is go with them? And he's like, kind of. He told me he was making like $2,500 to get his dick sucked by guys. I was like, are you gay now? What's up with that? That shit was like mind-blowing.
He's like, yeah, I just got to get really drunk, put my head back, pretend it's a girl. And then I just, once I see the money, then it's all like, it's okay. He's like, you just got to be open to whatever's on the menu. This type of stuff I was oblivious to. I just didn't know this was going on. Alex is straight and says this is something he's never even considered before.
But he says his modelling career is stalling, his rent's due, and he's got family to support back home. So he finds himself asking. Am I willing to sell my soul so that I'm not in financial debt and so that I could actually be able to put food on the table? He's given a number for a guy called Jim and decides to give him a call. He told me they're going to Marrakesh. What they need is someone who can strip and I'm like...
I'm a pretty good dancer, so you just put some usher on, something like that, and I'll just go out there and I'll do what I do. So I was just like, OK, I can do that. I'm going to go to Africa. Alex can't stop thinking about the money on offer. Thousands of dollars, he's told, for a dance. Real easy.
He's cautious but says he's not naive and, after what his friend has told him, senses there could be more to this than dancing. I had a feeling there would be something sexual. I was never familiar with this lifestyle. And there's no such thing as a free lunch. It's not like just someone's going to hand me that much money because they think I have a pretty smile or something or want me to do well in life.
I don't think I was told anything specifically. So I was just trying to read between the lines, which is like, you know, just keep your mind open to anything is possible.
After chatting with Jim, Alex agrees to meet him at his apartment in New York. And as auditions go, it's pretty weird. Alex says he starts dancing in Jim's living room. But the whole time, he's distracted by Jim's dog. Sitting there, watching him as he strips. So he tells me he just tries to focus on the music to make sure Jim's into it because he really needs to land this job.
I was waiting for him to be like, okay, here's your ticket. You're going. He's like, oh, the dance? Definitely. The dance was definitely 10 out of 10. And I'm like, oh, shit. I'm going to Marrakesh. This is awesome. And he's like, no, you got to finish the whole thing. You only danced for me. He's like, you're supposed to go down on me. Give me a blowjob.
Alex says he's thrown. He says he tries to play dumb, tries to charm his way out of what is a super awkward situation for him. But Jim's not buying it. So he's like, I need to see that you're good with it. Because if you're not good and I send you there and you're not good at what you do and you say you're not going to do it, then I'm going to get in trouble. It's going to make me look bad.
Alex says it just isn't something he's prepared to do, so he reluctantly accepts the $300 he says Jim gives him for turning up for the audition and leaves. My whole mood just dropped. I had tears in my eyes and I didn't even move. But the thing is, I'm starting to think back to my family and I'm like, I've got some stepping up to do.
And I just, I stood there for another minute just thinking maybe he's at the door listening and he's going to feel bad. Nope. Crickets. I walked downstairs like three steps and I was about to go out and I'm just like, fuck, I got to go up there. So I kind of wiped my tears and I told myself like, this is going to be some shit that you're not going to like. But like, I never, I never did that before. So I'm about to learn real quick, I guess, eventually.
What was it that made you walk back into the room? It was the trip and, I mean, then the $5,000 or whatever it was I was getting. And knowing that if they liked you, that it would be a reoccurring thing, even if it was every other month, there's still a substantial income versus what I was making. And I'm like, I don't know if they would hire me for the actual campaigns. So I always thought...
So he knocks on Jim's door and goes back inside. He doesn't really know what he's doing, so he says Jim coaches him through it.
when he's done. Alex says Jim gives him an extra $200. I went straight to a CVS and got a toothbrush and mouthwash and stuff like that. And I couldn't scrub my mouth enough, you know. I felt relieved to get it over with, so it was almost like I could celebrate. Like, whoa, the worst is over. It's out of the way. It's all downhill from here, which is the feeling that I had, but I definitely gave something of me away that day.
So when you left Jim's apartment, you believed that was the worst it was going to get? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I couldn't see it getting much worse than that, honestly. I mean, I knew that there was probably, like, maybe potential for some other things down the line, but I felt like the ball was more in my court now. Like, the hardest part's out of the way. It should be smooth sailing from here.
Maybe it's because I now know where this is likely going to lead that this sounds a bit too hopeful. But Alex says he genuinely believed the worst was over and that Jim took advantage at the audition because he could and he knew Alex needed the money. After the audition, Alex says Jim's kind of vague about what's going to happen next. He says the only thing he's explicitly been told is that he has to perform a striptease. But it's on.
And things begin to move quickly. Just like we've heard before, Jim arranges an appointment with a personal groomer. No one told me this part. They shave your entire body with a razor because they smooth people. I was like, that's freaking weird. The travel itinerary arrives from Jim. And soon Alex is on his way to North Africa, to the ancient city of Marrakesh in Morocco. We'll be back after this.
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Hey, it's Nora McInerney, host of The Head Start, Embracing the Journey. This is season two. And if you're new here, these are real conversations with real people living with chronic migraine. This is a show that creates a little more space for empathy and understanding around asking questions and asking for help.
So don't wait. Jump into the conversation and learn a little more about life with chronic migraine. Listen to the Head Start Embracing the Journey on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. When Alex arrives in Marrakesh, he's whisked away from the airport in a taxi and driven through the maze-like medina with blush-colored walls and bustling bazaars heaving with people. His itinerary from gym shows he's staying in the trendy Newtown district.
The city is intoxicating. Simmering colours and smells hit him at every turn. And he soon realises he isn't the only one who's been flown in for this event. He says he's been told other men are booked into different hotels dotted around the city so they don't attract attention. The next day, Alex says he's instructed to wait outside his hotel where he'll be picked up by a chauffeur.
The itinerary emailed to him by Jim says the festivities start at 8pm sharp. If you have Abercrombie & Fitch clothing when you are going to see Matthew and Michael, wear it. Again, this is not about you, but what works in a club does not necessarily work in a five-star restaurant or hotel. It's only when he's being driven to meet Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith that Alex says the scale of this event starts to become clear.
Alex says he counts between 15 and 20 other young men, all in matching clothing, like they've just stepped out of an Abercrombie ad.
Hardly inconspicuous in Marrakesh. Then we got paraded up some stairs up to like this palace looking place, which is magnificent, you know. And there were these guards there with AK-47s just standing there, just guarding the door, which is a bit intimidating, but it was, I mean, it was pretty cool. I've never seen anything like that.
The palace is actually La Mamunia, a fantastically opulent hotel in central Marrakech. La Mam, as it's known, to its super-rich regulars. According to Alex's itinerary, it's where Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith are hosting their event. Alex says he'd heard armed guards were around that night because royalty was also staying at the hotel.
Once he arrives, Alex says he's given a non-disclosure agreement to sign. And that's not all. They took my passport. I think they needed my passport for the NDA. I can't remember if they took our phones before we got there or when we arrived.
He says he can't remember when his passport was returned to him, but he's sure his phone was taken during the event. He says the group of young men are ushered past neighbouring suites where there's more guards with guns. They're then taken to a private villa in the hotel grounds, where he's herded into what Alex describes as a giant closet, which sounds like a walk-in wardrobe.
Alex doesn't know what to expect next, but he says they're being plied with champagne, encouraged to take Viagra and told to stay put. Yeah, I think it was already past midnight and I'd been in there for hours. And then before I realized it, there was like eight guys in there. Then it was like six and there were two. And then I guess I was the surprise because I was the only person they hadn't seen.
Finally, Alex says his name's called and he's taken further into Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith's sprawling villa. It's made up of a private courtyard lined with palm trees and a gold-tiled swimming pool. He says there are men dressed in elaborate costumes, posing like statues, while others float naked in the water. It sounds like a scene out of Stanley Kubrick's film Eyes Wide Shut.
And while this is an event hosted by the Abercrombie guys, Alex says they're not the only men there to be entertained. I didn't know there was going to be other people there, there were going to be others there. I don't think I realised that until I was in that little closet area.
Alex says he's given an outfit to wear and is introduced to the Abercrombie boss. It's his big moment. He's told to start stripping, but within less than a minute, says Mike Jeffries tells him to stop.
He grabbed me and was like rubbing me and he's like infatuated with me at first. And then he grabbed my head and he was trying to make out with me. I was trying to pull my head back and he opened his mouth wide open like a whale and he's trying to like eat my face. I was trying to be in it without offending him. But like I was pulling my head back at the same time. I was extremely uncomfortable.
Alex says he's led to a couch where other men join him, who he understands are friends of Mike Jeffries. He's worried he's going to be stuck with them the entire night, but they get distracted by another guy walking past. So Alex says he takes his chance, gets up and hides in a nearby bedroom, hoping he can wait it out. I ended up taking a nap and when I woke up I felt like something wasn't right.
I don't know who put a condom in my ass. I wasn't sure what was going on. I pulled it out and I just kind of tossed it. Alex says he isn't sure what's happened, but starts to worry someone's had sex with him while he was asleep. Well, no one's ever been inside me, so I figured I'd feel excruciating pain or some sort of uncomfortableness or something. I wasn't sure. It was just one of these...
where I just wanted to forget about it instantly. Alex finds this extremely difficult to talk about. His legs are shaking the whole time and we break more than once so he can lie down. Do you recall if the condom was used? I didn't want to sit there and examine it. I just grabbed it and kind of just tossed it because I was embarrassed. It was pretty far in there.
which was something that kind of startled me at the time. I didn't really, I didn't know what had happened and I started putting two and two together later, realizing that there was probably, there was probably a high probability of what had happened without me being aware of it. I don't know why I was so tired. I can handle my fair share of alcohol, so for me to be able to just
knock out like that. I didn't know if someone had put something in, champagne or something. I just felt like someone had put like a date rape drug or liquid G in my drink. Alex tells me I'm one of only a few people he's shared his fears with. He says he's played out all the possible scenarios in his head over and over and over about what happened in that room in Marrakesh.
and always comes back to the same conclusion. How else do you get a condom inside somebody? I think it came off and they just kept going. When I put things together, I believe there's a very good possibility I was drugged and raped. Yeah, that's how I feel, but I'll probably never know for sure the answer of what really happened. From what he told me about the event in Morocco, there could have been around 30 people there that night.
We have no way of knowing what happened. Alex says he didn't say anything at the time. The last thing he wanted to do was cause a scene. After all, he'd already signed an NDA before the party started. And even if he had said anything, he's in a country where gay sex is illegal. So who's he going to tell? Yeah, that freaked me out. Like, if someone walked in or saw what was going on,
all hell probably could have broke loose. It's not something I wanted to think about too much. Looking back, how easy do you think it would have been to have left? Oh, I mean, no one was leaving. I don't even think, I didn't even think about sneaking out of there because it didn't seem like it was even a possibility. At this point, Alex says he still hasn't been paid and he's not been given his return flight ticket either. So he has no way of getting home until the event's over.
A few days later, Alex finally returned back home to New York. And it's not long before Jim gets back in touch. Rather than ignore him and walk away from all this, Alex says Jim convinces him next time will be easier, less chaotic. So he agrees to meet the Abercrombie guys again. I felt like at the time, like the first trip was as bad as I think it could get.
When I had the money, it was answering some of the problems in my life. You know, when you're younger, when you're trying to make a career out of modelling and stuff, I mean, against better judgement, I figured, let's give it another shot. Jim arranges for Alex to attend a few more events hosted by the Abercrombie guys. He tells me he's paid around $2,000 to $3,000 on each occasion, but that he's mainly eye candy and manages to stay on the periphery and not get involved in any sex.
Except one time, when he says Mike Jeffries directed him to have sex with another young man. Alex says it was protected, but he felt he didn't really have any choice but to go through with it. I didn't want to do that either, but I just assumed because we're there, whatever they ask pretty much goes. You don't want to be the one who's going to disappoint them.
I don't know what they'd use against us if we were to leave them unhappy just because they've got a lot of power. It kind of felt like you're obligated to do whatever once you arrive at those places. So if I'd known 100% I'd have to hook up with someone, I would have thought more about it and said no. A few months after that first trip to Marrakesh, Alex finally stops attending events.
He's feeling really low and tells me he starts drinking more to forget about it all. He says he tries to get back into his old routine, back to booking modelling jobs so he can move on with his life. But for several years, Alex says he never really got back on track. He also tells me about bouts of sickness where he feels really unwell. He tells me it first started about six months after he came back from Marrakesh and then went away.
But from time to time he'd develop a fever, and notice raised bumps on his body. He ignores the voice in his head, telling him to get it checked out. I had regularly gotten checked. And after that I hadn't for a while because I was, I guess in a way I was kind of scared too. But the skin rash keeps coming back. He says he initially tries to cover it up with makeup, then goes off the radar, stops seeing friends, stops dating.
But he starts to suspect something is seriously wrong. And finally, after about six years, Alex goes to a clinic. I found out I was HIV positive. I don't know when else I possibly could have gotten it because I wasn't living a promiscuous lifestyle like that, you know. And yeah, it turned everything upside down. The thing is, Alex will never know how or when he contracted HIV.
and not knowing has really messed with him. But when he weighs it up, he can't help thinking back to that period in his life when he went to the Abercrombie guys' events. Before then, he says he'd always used protection, tested between partners. What he believes happened in Marrakesh is the only high-risk encounter he says he can think of. I mean, at the time, I was pretty smart about the decisions that I had made sexually, so, I mean, there was...
very very slim possibility that it could have come from outside of there but the way that the whole thing went down and just how sketchy everything was my guess is like it probably did happen as a result of that incident but like I said I mean I'll never know for sure I guess and that's uh that's just something I have to live with now
Alex is doing okay now. He tells me he takes his meds every day and the virus is at such low levels in his blood, it's now undetectable, so he can't pass it on. But there's still stigma around HIV. Alex says he doesn't have much of a support network and it can feel really lonely. Not everyone knows my story and because I chose not to tell everyone about it, it can be difficult sometimes.
I can't change anything about the past, so I just try and keep a positive mindset. You know, this is part of my journey, and I'm just blessed and fortunate to still be here and be able to have the resources to still live a healthy life. But it's definitely, you know, it's taken its toll over time. Hey, how are you doing? Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
After speaking with Alex, I do some more digging into the Marrakesh trip. According to former staffers of Mike Jeffries, La Mamunia was one of his favourite hotels. He and Matthew Smith often visited, so an event like the one Alex attended might not have been a one-off. I managed to track down another guy from the same trip. He tells me he'd been involved with the Abercrombie guys for a while, but this particular event stood out.
Like Alex, he also wants to remain anonymous, so this is an actor speaking his words. Marrakesh was probably one of the most sketchiest times. It was a shit show, to be honest. All the guys were getting drunk and passed out. You see...
So maybe Alex's expectation that he was only there to dance is reasonable.
According to this guy, some men were hired specifically for that, while others like him were male escorts who he says were paid for sex. So some people knew what they were getting into. And that this happened in a country where gay sex is illegal wasn't lost on him either. There's like maybe a dozen guys there, 15 guys, and they tell us we have to sneak into this hotel that's like, you know, this is in Marrakesh, this is North Africa.
He then tells me something extraordinary. The event Alex was at? It wasn't the only one the Abercrombie guys hosted during that stay in Marrakesh. My source, who was there, says he picked up on the scale of what was happening and it was taking place over successive nights.
They have two butler guys. One name I know, the other guy I forgot. I'm not even joking you, I overheard the schedule that night. So I was there for about four days. I saw them three times. And they had another two weeks booked. And they had over 15 to 20 guys coming in each of the four or five days. And if you do the math, that's like 60 to 80 guys. I mean, it's crazy.
What happened in Marrakech sounds way bigger, way more elaborate than the other events I've heard about so far. From what I've been told, the scale seems extraordinary. Dozens and dozens of young men being flown in, put up in hotels and moved around town over days.
And then there's a cost. I'm assuming, like Alex, they all had their flights and accommodation covered. And if they all got paid $5,000, plus expenses, I mean, this trip alone could easily have cost upwards of half a million dollars. Not for the first time investigating this story, I'm just blown away that this has stayed hidden for so long. It is surprising that it's coming out now, but it's not surprising at the same time because...
Time will always win. 10, 20, 30 years comes out. So why hasn't this come out before? I've spoken to eight men who attended events hosted by Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith. And they often refer to non-disclosure agreements, the NDAs. And they all feared breaking them. They try and, like, intimidate you when you're doing it. Like, there's one person standing there with their arms crossed.
They pretty much just said, like, just don't speak about this or you will get sued for a million dollars. I was trying to, I was like trying to be jokey and like, well, I'm never going to have a million dollars, so you don't have to worry. But, you know, I just signed my life away. Were you ever given a copy of your NDA? No, but they let us know that they keep copies. Did you understand what you had signed? Yeah, I understood. At the time, I'm like, I'm not going to talk about this anyways.
There's nothing I got to worry about because I'm not going to run around and just like tell people about this. No straight guy is going to brag about this like, bro, I went out and fucked this guy last weekend. And it's not just about being gay or straight. Most of the men describe feeling shame and embarrassment. And maybe that stopped them speaking out just as effectively as any NDA.
As this investigation has gone on, I've begun to get a sense of scale, a network, an operation extending beyond the US. On top of the events I've heard from Barrett, David and Alex, the ones that took place in the Hamptons, Marrakesh, London and Nice in the south of France, I found travel documents and heard about events from other men in Paris, Venice and St. Bart's in the Caribbean. The scale of this operation
is bigger than I think I understand still. Jeffries was the kingpin. If it wasn't for him, none of this would have existed, from what I can tell. I think that Matthew Smith was the one that was coordinating all of this. And then Jim was like an intermediary, acting as an agent, as an official agent.
There were specific men there to escort and make sure everything was going according to plan. Different people booking cars, planes, hotels. A person who was there to shave me. There are people that are just existing to recruit. My friend, he told me he would be making $500. It's a part of a well-oiled machine. Mike Jeffries is at the center of it.
as a pyramid, which means that there's a base that's holding it up. I don't know how many events Mike Jeffries and Matthew Smith hosted or how many men attended, but I'm sure it took lots of people to make it work. I want to get inside the operation and find out more about the people involved in making it all happen. What do they know? What were they doing? And will they talk?
So it wasn't just being in the room. I was giving them lube and poppers. I'm not going to say that it never crossed my mind. Like, what the fuck are you doing? But do you know how much money I was getting paid, though? That's next time on The Abercrombie Guys. Thanks for listening to The World of Secrets podcast, an investigation from BBC Radio 5 Live and Panorama. If you've enjoyed this episode, then please tell a friend, spread the word, and even better, write a review.
And let us know what you think of the series using the hashtag World of Secrets. You can write to me and the team at Rianna, that's R-I-A-N-N-A, at bbc.com. The Abercrombie Guys is presented and investigated by me, Rianna Croxford. The podcast producers are Ruth Evans, Ailis Hart and Emma Close. The BBC News investigation editor is Ed Campbell and the podcast editor is Richard Fenton-Smith.
Sound design and mix by Neil Churchill, Andy Fell and Anthony Danbury. Voiceovers by Alex Stoll and William Greenblatt. Production support by Debbie Richford, Sophie Hill, Jackie Johnson and Kirsten Oliver. And technical support by Jonathan Glover and Jack Willis. The world of secret theme music is by Jeremy Wormsley.
This podcast is made in collaboration with BBC Panorama. The editor is Karen Whiteman, executive producer is Tom Stone and the producer is Kate Brown. The Abercrombie Guys is a BBC News long-form audio production for BBC Sounds. The head of long-form audio is Emma Rippon and the deputy head of BBC Current Affairs is Jim Gray.
The commissioning editor at BBC Sounds is Dylan Haskins and commissioning executive is Louise Catton-Horne. The assistant commissioner is Natasha Johansson. With thanks to Hannah Livingston, Joe Kent, Adam Walker and Paul Myers. And thank you to everyone who spoke to us for this investigation. We can't tell stories like this without you. Thank you for listening.
I had just come out of one of my bare knuckle boxing matches. I don't know why, but the first thing that came to my brain was, what if I do a drag show? Remarkable personal stories told by the people that lived them. I could easily have pulled that trigger, but that was not my brief. I was not an assassin. I was not told to do that. I was not told to murder him. Lives Less Ordinary from the BBC World Service. Find it wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
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