141: Wartime Interlude 01:09:18

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Hello, my friends, and welcome to an interlude. Not a full-on epilogue, but an interlude. We're taking a little breather from our usual narrative story of the United States to digest all the ridiculous amount of World War I history we've gotten through of late. And there is a lot of it to digest. There is so very much. Joined, of course, by my friend, Kelsey Dines. Hey, y'all. There it is, for the Texan family. Yep. Y'all. Um...

We've got one little... One little thing. One little note, yeah. And then a bit of news to fill everyone in on. And then we need to dive into all this World War I-ness. Because we got plenty. Yep. So we would like to give our gratitude to Jeffrey from Southern Illinois who...

has brought to my attention that it is indeed Southern Illinois. Not South Illinois. It's Southern Illinois. So thank you, you know, the things you just don't know when your state's away. We got a few other emails that kind of in the tomato camp, not ignoring, but I would actually like to take the moment to highlight. This kind of points out just how diverse the various dialects of the United States really are. And we try to get as local as

of a pronunciation as possible, but we're definitely not going to be able to get that for everything. And I mean, I'm a Westerner, so not like calling out the East Coast. I don't even know if that's where some of those necessarily are coming from or Midwest. But yeah, that's worth keeping in mind. I know that I definitely show my roots, I think, when I talk. Yeah. So yeah. I think most of us do. I think so. So that's okay. Anyhow.

Thank you, Jeffrey. And we've got things. Lots of things. Lots of things. But first. Well, yes. I mean, by things, I did mean this tour that has come together. I've really been blown away by...

Your support? I mean... We have had so many people... Showing up, yeah. ...sending emails saying, come to our city, and we would love to come to all of them. All the cities, yes. So... So... Maybe one day. Well, so... We'll be able to get to some of these other places. Oh, absolutely. That's the hope. So at this point, well, I'll let you know that, again, this live show that you may have seen, whether it's on our social media feeds or...

mentioned in a few other epilogues here and there, interludes. We're interluding. We're interluding. But the show is its own thing. It will never be published on the RSS feed. It's intended as a live theatrical experience slash podcast-ish lecture. Yeah, it's hard to know quite where it falls, but... But I'm really enjoying doing it. Yeah.

Whatever the right term is for it. And being able to have an excuse to pull my guitar out while talking history. I've

I found my spot. There you go. So, I mean, we're heading to Montana. We're bringing the show right here to my backyard, to Utah Valley University, Utah, for Veterans Day. We're heading to York, Pennsylvania, Mesa, Arizona. We've got Modesto, so kind of wine country area in California. Schaumburg, Illinois. And there are a slew of other places in the works. I mean, it's actually, I find it beautiful.

This is just a crazy experience. No one told me that this was one of the options when I got a PhD in history. Well, now you know. Yeah. And now I do. Probably, disclaimer, don't want to plan on this. Yeah. Yeah. I'm honored. Thank you for coming to this. I'm loving meeting people after the show. It's amazing.

It's been really fun. Yeah. All of the theaters that we currently are for sure going to have links to their box offices on our website. You just go to htdspodcast.com slash tour and they all show up there. I'm

Have checked all the links multiple times. They all work. Yeah. Feel free to check out the website if you want to follow, see if your town is showing up. And we'll definitely be updating that on our social media as well when slash if new cities are added.

So that's exciting. So is World War I. That's true. Let's get into some of this material. We've had a lot of really exciting stuff happen. Yes, we have. It has been a while since we have sat down. It has. I had a few cool conversations. Captain Mac Caldwell definitely covered Bella Wood for us, so we won't go down that road again. But he did a really good job with it. He was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good conversation. The captain's become a friend. Good. Yeah. I like that guy a lot.

But let's go ahead and get back to U.S. entry into World War I. We covered that thoroughly. Don't want to do a rehash, but a few things that as the weeks and frankly months now have passed since that episode, the things that I would hope listeners really understand, retain. So on that, the Lusitania itself, the sinking. Yes.

I think it's often lost on, you know, I'm just thinking through my students in the classroom and experiences I've seen there. We talk about the Lusitania being sunk and there's kind of this almost void expression feel. Not that it's a lack of sympathy, but it's stories that make these sorts of tragic things come to life, right? Yeah. When you feel personal connection.

now it's devastating. It's not just this headline in the news that someone shrugs at, even though it's terrible human loss, right? But somehow it's like our brain disassociates. So the thing that was then and is again on my mind is the Titanic. Right. How it was this huge thing. And there's so many like personal stories of people who survived it. And I don't feel like

that's something you see with the Lusitania as much either. I mean, maybe James Cameron needed to make a movie about that one. Yeah. And then we'd feel that same sort of, oh, my goodness, that emotional connection. Yeah. But, you know, if you recall the cold open from that episode,

I mean, not to get into the gory details again, but like babies in wicker baskets. Yeah. You know, sinking into the ocean. You realize this was an ocean liner. This wasn't some dinky little ship. Yeah, it was like a cruise ship type thing, essentially. Yeah, I mean, it was one of the biggest, baddest of the day. I mean that in the, you know. Yeah, yeah. Older millennial way that I do in a positive way when I say bad. And of course, on the other side of it,

I mean, we don't, most people do not feel particular sympathies for Germany when we talk about the world wars. True, true. And, you know, it's-

With pretty good reason there. But understanding, you know, that very different narrative where the Germans are seeing their children starve. Yeah, because of the blockades that are happening. So they're willing to do pretty much anything to break that. Yeah. And I think those are things that, as I reflect on,

When you're getting through this material in the classroom or you're just getting through a textbook, those are things that don't jump out as much. No. You catch the Lusitania song and...

That somehow is why we go to war. Two years later. Two freaking years later, right? But when you slow down and you think about really what the devastating loss of life happened when the Lusitania went under. Yeah. This blockade, the way that was playing out, this give and take on the unrestricted warfare. Well, because they started unrestricted and then they stopped for a while and then they started back up again. Yep. And hence we get that big gap, right? And there's...

There's Woodrow Wilson like, OK, we're not going to go to war, not going to go to war. They've stopped with crisis averted. Yeah. But I mean, as he said, and I quote him in the episode, right, like he knew it's just one tragic accident away from. Yeah. Basically having to go to war. And I mean, ultimately, that's where it went. Yeah. The Germans went ahead and returned to unrestricted warfare and.

Woodrow knew he was toast. He did not play neutral anymore. It was done. I think the story that really drove it home for me a little bit was the guy that was standing there and like watching the torpedo coming towards the boat. And like, there's nothing you can do. Yes. Nothing you do is going to be able to stop it or make it our Irish American protagonist. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just like, okay, well.

Hopefully you have a life jacket or something. Can you imagine being in that moment, right? And here he is enjoying a smoke on the upper deck. I mean, whether you smoke or not, right? You can put yourself in those shoes. Yeah, you're having a stroll.

And then suddenly you see this thing. Yeah. And just watching it come at you. Because didn't you think it was like a dolphin or something at first? Initially. And then realizes it's very much not a dolphin. Right. Yeah. Well, so that wasn't I can't recall off the top of my head. Go back and listen. If it was him, it was a different sea creature. And it's.

I'm going to remember as soon as we get off the minds. But yeah, the whole crowd up there, you know, they're like, what is that? And then you see that little, you know, line, that little bead moving through the water towards you. Oh, my. Yeah, you can't. Like running away does nothing. No. You're on a boat. Words fail to describe what that must feel like. Yeah.

Total helplessness. Well, so we'll... If James Cameron's listening, we look forward to that fourth film on Lusitania. Please do that. Yeah. Okay. Well...

As the Germans do return to their unrestricted warfare and that that really, you know, throws things a bit a bit further. The Zimmerman telegram also just note that very quickly because that's often blown off as well. Yeah, I think it's a mentioned, but it's not something that I think a lot of people go deep on the background. Yes. Why that was such a big deal. Well, I'd hope that, uh,

for all of you who are listening that you were having some flashbacks there all the way back to those four episodes done years ago on the Mexican American war. Yeah. And you know, the territory that. It was less than a hundred years before this. It was. Yeah. So, you know, that history again, casts its shadow and, and comes to bear. Um,

So the Mexican-American War indirectly, you know, it plays a part. I don't I don't know exactly which verb I'd want to go for, but it's got a connection to World War One, to the U.S. entering World War One. OK, so I feel like those are like the big. Yeah, those are the big things that often get lost on people that I would hope part of the building blocks. Yeah. To the U.S. entry that tend to.

Get left out. Yeah. Kind of tossed to the side. Fake mention and moving on. So now as we enter this war, though, and this does connect with that unrestricted submarine warfare that the Germans go diving into. No pun intended, but it worked great. We're going to run with that. Yeah. Is the belief that the United States cannot get a military together fast enough? Because they didn't have one. Virtually, right? When you're the 17th

You know, I mean, that's not on the rankings there. You know, you're yeah, you're behind Serbia. Let's remember that when World War One began,

Russia was charging in saying, I'm here to protect poor little Serbia. Our military was smaller than that of Serbia's. Which I think is something that we don't really think about, right? Because we think about, oh, well, we had the civil war. There were obviously a lot of soldiers there. So why do we not still have this big military? It just wasn't a priority. And let's keep in mind the way that

the military had functioned up to World War I. The idea to go all, throw all the way back to early, to the early Republic is that you have state militias. It's not a standing. Yeah. I mean, full time. The U.S. Army is at times like 10,000 guys. It's so small. The real idea is that in the event of any emergency of an invasion, and that was kind of the thought, right? This is a defensive force. The militias are,

at the very least, can handle the start of things while the United States builds up a force. And of course, the Civil War, yeah, there was a large military, but it was in many ways dismantled. I mean, we saw a lot of that force put to use in the Indian Wars and Western expansion. After the Civil War, we had episodes on that. But yeah, this large, massive military, no, it largely disbanded.

Went away. Yeah, it went away. We returned to... And so that's where the National Guard is, you know, about as big, a little bit more than the U.S. Army at the start of World War I. We're still in that old tradition. And this is something where, you know, you can see World War I creating our modern world in many ways. Yeah. You know, that...

Most Americans, we think of our military as, well, it's up there. It's huge, right? Yeah. Whatever your feelings are on it, right? Yeah. Whether you're pro or not a fan of that, that's understood. Everyone knows that the U.S. has a massive military. Yeah.

And it's hard to imagine a time where that wasn't the case. And that is indeed the case just a century ago. Yeah. Yeah. So World War One's that big change. And poor black Jack Pershing, right? I'm trying to imagine what that would be like to like you are in charge of this group. That's not really. Oh, it's not even a group, though, right? Like, like, yeah. Build this. Build it. Make it happen. Take this military. While we're at war. Yes. Like.

And this is where I, I mean, I get where the Germans thought to themselves. Yeah. It's not a big deal. Unrestricted submarine warfare. We're going to break this blockade and we're going to push through. And America, yeah, they'll get mad. You know, if they send their guys over, whatever. They can't send enough to make a difference. It's fine. This is an incredible feat. Yeah. And, you know, it's...

I've really been just kind of amazed as I've had the privilege of going deeper into this story than I ever had been able to earlier in my career and seeing all these firsts happen as. Yeah, it's been really cool to witness it like, you know, as much as we obviously can. Yes, but slowly building up right to where I mean, months in France before we even had little, frankly, little in the big picture things. Battle of Cantigny.

Yeah, I'm not even going to try and pronounce that. See, the graduate degree in French, it finally pays off. There it is. It was worth it. It was worth it. Yes. So, you know, as we are now approaching the end of the war, and yet, Muzargon is a massive offensive. We're going to spend more than one episode on that. Yeah.

There's just no way to cover it in just one. Oh, my goodness. No, not at all. I mean, this this is the end of the war and it's quite the throwdown. But as we go into Muzargon, Blackjack now has this seven digit, you know, I mean, millions strong U.S. military, the American Expeditionary Force or AEF, as everyone has probably gotten used to hearing me say at this point.

I mean, it is an extraordinary undertaking. And it's worth noting that this is the one, I guess, I know we just breezed through. I don't think there's much value in us today, like giving a line by line. Yeah, play by play. But thematically, right? Talking about this, building this up the whole time, fighting against his own allies, this idea of amalgamation. Oh, yeah. Playing that

level of politics would drive me absolutely insane. I would not be able to do it. While trying to build the organization, right? Yeah.

And he's trying to make sure that what he does is in the best interest of the American men there. Yes. I mean, that's one thing I've really enjoyed Blackjack getting to, as I like to think of these historical figures as getting to know them as I'm reading his memoirs and reading some excellent biographies that have been written on him. Yeah.

The guy's sincere, you know? Yeah, he really wants to do it well. Yes. And the Allies might all agree that they want to stop Germany, but, you know, they've all got their own angle, too. And as the war is going to wrap up, each nation's also looking for their best interests. Yes. So, you know...

And France and Britain both wanting, I'll define the term yet again, forgive me, it's an important one though, so I hope people have really absorbed it, but that amalgamation, the splitting up American forces, basically just sending the doughboys into the ranks of the French, British. I mean, it makes sense on paper, right? These are- Yeah, it does. They're functional units and talk about training going fast, right? They've also been doing this for quite a while at this point. Exactly.

But, you know, even beyond preserving American prestige and power in peace talks to come, which those let's not pretend those are not serious considerations are important issues. But Blackjack's also thinking about his boys because, I mean, frankly, he can't and doesn't expect the commanders of foreign armies to value their lives the way he will.

So it's multifaceted. And poor Blackjack has got to deal with that while he's trying to build this force. Supplies are struggling. And not that he is perfect. Well, no. But I think he did a really good job. I'm impressed. With everything.

All of the crazy that got thrown at him. Like I probably would have just curled up into a ball and cried. So we will not be sending you off to command any. Not anything important. Duly noted, Kelsey. One of my favorite scenes. I want to wrap this point up on this.

Is his interaction. I told the story early on in this volume with a young captain, George C. Marshall. Yes. I mean, you know, tempers flare, right? This is hard stuff. He's humble. I did really like that story. Yeah. I thought that it showed.

Because it's easy as a leader to just get really angry and push back. Especially in, you know, and I'm going to caveat here, I have not served in the US Army. But hierarchical organizations, it makes it easier than, you know, more like in academia where we tend to, someone's a chair of the department, but they're going to go back to faculty. And it changes the dynamic where you're like rotating leadership. That's not true.

so much the case. Yeah. And it's very strict about it. But I appreciated that he took that and didn't, you know, make a huge deal out of it. Fun fact there. Not only does that moment not destroy young George's career, as he feared. I mean,

Spoiler alert, the dude is the man behind the Marshall Plan post-World War II, right? George C. Marshall's going to go do some things. Yeah, he's coming back. Yes, and that is... In a big way. And that's another important thing that I'll point out really briefly is some of these names, I've very intentionally made sure to tell their stories in these episodes. George C. Marshall, Douglas MacArthur, George Patton. Because we're going to see him again. Yeah, I mean, World War I is...

I mean, it's awful and terrible that this war happened and then an even deadlier follow-up, right? World War II. This is the training ground though. Yeah. These big names are getting that firsthand experience that they will then use in the war to come. So these relatively young bucks, I mean, obviously some of them are younger or older than others, but within that 20s up to about 40 range,

come world war ii they are now those seasoned you know older generals that are leading the charge yeah um but the the one um the one fun little fact i wanted to drop before we close close the chapter on

George Marshall not only did this not end his career, Blackjack is later his best man at his wedding. Oh, really? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. I love those fun little connections. I wanted to work that into an episode. There's just no meaningful way. We want to work a lot of things in and it just doesn't always work out that way. But look, hey, that is our very rapid, quick look at...

Key things to remember on the U.S. entry into World War I, amalgamation, the challenges of building this military, the training ground that it is for the Second War. So let's go ahead and take a break. And when we come back, time to talk about Harlem Hellfires. I'm excited to do that. Let's do it. This message is sponsored by Greenlight.

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So, Harlem Hellfighters. I've been actually really excited about this because we had an email sent to us before we wrote this episode saying that we need to do an episode about the Harlem Hellfighters. Did you tell me about this email? I think I did. I think you did. But it has been a while. It was on the docket to reassure this listener. But the thing is, I had never heard of it.

Oh, you had? No. So I was like, I don't know what this is. Like, when did this happen? What are you talking about? It's all good, Kelsey. That's not your that's my job. And it's been really fun, like fun. I don't know if that's the right word, but really rewarding. Interesting to kind of be able to learn about this all as a brand new thing. Sure. Never having heard of it before. Wow. So there you go. I liked it.

And I don't remember who wrote that email, but we have that episode now. There you go. Yeah. It is kind of fun. Sometimes I love the excitement when we're kind of getting to a phase and we'll come in an email like, are you going to cover this? Are you going to cover this? Yeah, but it's actually still eight months out. We will get there. There are actually a lot of other things just to lay the groundwork. Yeah. And, you know, when it comes to organization, there were a few different ways that, of course, we thought about going with.

With World War I. And I'm very pleased with what we landed on. I am too. I feel kind of taking the war in a very...

More battle by battle and really following that whole story of fighting amalgamation, trying to build the AEF. That to me is kind of foundational so that when we got to these last few episodes, three episodes that were thematic. Yeah. Right. Harlem Hellfighters, women, American women in particular in World War One and then aviation. The foundation, it was there. Yeah. You know, because you needed a lot of that background, that.

Bottom layer to understand some of the stuff that was happening with these other more specialized topics. Because as I'm telling the story, say, you know, I mean, Henry Johnson, I want to be able to, well,

You know, I always try to make I try to make the episodes so that they truly do stand alone. You don't have to listen to previous episodes. But I'm also respectful of the fact that you came along on this journey. Those were faithful listeners. I'm not going to rehash. You put in a lot of work getting to this point if you've started from the beginning. Well, I like to think I put a little bit of work into making this. I guess you did, too. No, but you did, right? Like you put a lot of time into it and I'm not going to waste our time.

Yeah. Telling you something five times. Right. Exactly. So I like that by the time we get to the Harlem Hellfighters, you know, the average listener, sure, you might not be able to recall from the top of your head what a Lewis machine gun is or, you know, the various mortars or the French 75 gun. Right. But when I say these words,

They're clicking. So now you recognize you've heard them before. Yes. Yeah. OK. And you've got to feel for, you know, OK, guns fire rapidly. Maybe you're not a military type or remembering exactly how many bullets per second. Sure. But but you get like these rifles.

are a hell of a lot more powerful, faster, stronger, all the things than they were a few decades ago. Yeah. Right. So, you know, in an episode like this, I want to be able to focus on the story of Jim Europe. I want to be able to focus on the story of Henry Johnson. I don't want to be pausing and go, now, real quick. Here's how the trenches work. Yeah. Well, all that said, Jim Europe. I feel like that's where you got. I mean, it's where I started the episode. It is. It's where you got to start, though. Yeah. I...

Thought it was really interesting to see him go from band conductor. Just, you know, that's what he's known for. To...

I'm a soldier, but then also asked to once again be a band conductor. And I really... Using that celebrity status. I respect that he didn't want to, right? Yeah. The army basically says, please, please do it. Beg and plead. And so, okay, he's... In case this was lost on anyone, he's not officially the band director. He's unofficially the band director. He's the best in the regiment, right? Yeah. And he's the one who put together this amazing band. So...

And officially, though, he's a machine gun officer. Right. This is Lieutenant James Europe. He is a soldier who was just kind of begged and pleaded into also providing entertainment in a way that he knows how. Yeah. And I love that he just makes like the most ridiculous asks thinking like, you know.

This will sink it. This will get me off. And they're like, all right. Whatever you want. Here are all the things. Yes. Fly down to Puerto Rico and go recruit the top percussionist. Whatever you want. You can have just...

Be the band director. But I'm sure that the people that they played for appreciated it. I mean, he introduces. So let's define terms a little bit. I tried to make sure this was woven into the narrative, but it's always just a little bit easier in these conversational settings. So he is at the kind of the transition phase between ragtime and jazz. And those are distinctly different types of music. They are, of course, quite different.

I think they have similarities, right? Yeah. Think of, well, as I would put it, and I'll, you know, preface with music history is not my specialty as a historian, but, um,

And I, you know, I do to get later down that that mix. I do love swing music because I grew up in the 90s in that five minute period when swing was popular again. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So but I got into all those classics. So, you know, Cab Calloway is a particular favorite of mine. But things to come. Yes. Things to come. But, you know, Jim Europe, I mean, he's one of these crucial figures who is really creating this. It's largely coming out of a

coming out of America's black community. And it is, I loved, and now I can't remember the author. I mean, I cited him. I cited this historian in that episode, but I thought it was so well put that how he said black American music is kind of the most American music. And it's creating this very new and different genre that's taking these European cultures

instruments and mixing it with culture and traditions that go all the way back to Africa. And it's it is unique and new. It is. And it's really impressive. And we are all I can't help but think we are we've all lost out because a drummer lost his temper. Right.

That was crazy to me. And that was, I think, what was that? The mini episode that you did for that. Yeah, I went into much more detail in the mini. We gave it, it was acknowledged in the main episode. Yeah, it was. But yeah, that was the company mini episode. And listening to that, I just, I can't imagine getting to that point where I'm that upset. Yeah. You know? Like that drummer was. Yeah, like that drummer was. I know. I know. And...

Because of that, we lose this musical genius. Oh, this gift to humanity. Yeah.

Yeah, this modern day Mozart, if you will. I also loved that we were able to get a recording of the music that he wrote, that Clef Club March. Let's just go ahead and say again, we mentioned him in the credits of that episode, but the Paragon Ragtime Orchestra. So in that episode, we heard a lot of real music there. Yeah. That, in the cold open.

The song that that's being played, that was the actual song by Jim Europe that I mentioned in the storytelling. The recording is is not original. We don't have an original of it. Yeah, but that fantastic recording was played by the Paragon Ragtime Orchestra.

Their website. And of course, they're on social media. They were kind enough to let us use that recording for free even. And it really, I think, brought a lot to the episode. Having access to that. I'm so pleased to be able to do that. It was fantastic. So my immense gratitude to them. Again, if you enjoyed that or if you enjoy this style of music, their website, that's P-A-R-A-G-O-N.com.

And then time, T-I-M-E dot com. Paragon time dot com. Check them out. Yeah.

anyhow, Jim Europe, uh, I mean, he basically introduces ragtime slash jazz to France and he played such a crucial role in, uh, bringing it as we saw in New York, bringing it into white America as well. Um, it, it was something now that everyone enjoyed. Yeah. Instead of it being one, one group of people, he was able to bring it out and make it fun for everyone to listen to. The,

And you're mentioning, Kelsey, we were talking off mic earlier, how painful, difficult, or maybe the respect you had for him. Yeah. The hotel scene. Yes. How, you know, it wasn't something that we would really even think of as a big deal. But they go in and the hotel owner is...

pretty ticked off and They're expected to just not react because if they do it's gonna be vastly worse for them than it would be for anybody else This is this very blatant disrespect. Yeah that is dished out on them, right? So here's noble sis being assaulted. Yeah Yeah Right. I mean he's being kicked repeatedly and

And yet he doesn't dare fight back because he knows, frankly, that could get him killed. Yeah. And I mean, it's...

Kind of not taken away from that abuse. It's sort of a heartwarming ish response to see him charge out and all the soldiers, black and white, responding. Right. Charging in like, no, no, no, no, no. Excuse you. Yeah. You this this was maybe that's how you think things work here in this town. But what?

new yorkers are here and we're not going to stand for that yeah right so it but you know that's for every one of those scenes that's the reality how many unrecorded scenes are there where there there isn't you know this a group of other soldiers exactly up yeah um and uh you know and frankly the episode ends on that note right we we saw leroy johnston

a veteran of World War I that the man survives the front lines of Germany only to die with his brothers amid Jim Crow violence. And, you know, he's the story that I told. But I want to say, don't quote me on this. I'm pulling from recollection now, but I believe there are nine stories

Black soldiers total who black World War One veterans who were killed in Jim Crow violence after they came home. I mean, that's like these are legitimate heroes. They've been given.

medals of recognition by France. Well, in particular, yes, this unit, right? Yeah. The 15th New York, as they prefer to be called. It really is funny, right? They're the 369th of the Harlem Hellfighters in everyone's minds. But they prefer the 15th New York. But like, they are decorated war heroes. Yes. And yet they're still...

subject to all of this and yeah i mean this this is the jim crow era and um and i'm not saying that like excusing it and i'm seeing like this is the reality yeah you know and um so that's why i mean those are those are important stories to tell because that is what was very truly yeah that's what they experienced um and just in case uh

There's any confusion. I always want to be particularly clear. The nine that I'm pretty sure was nine that are lynched, killed, that goes across all units. So that's not just the 369 to use the term people are more familiar with. But still, I mean, these were still people that went.

To Europe and even if they weren't largely doing construction. Yeah. Even if they weren't in the frontline fighting units, they still were putting their lives at risk. Right. And serving their country. Exactly. I mean, that's not to get ahead of ourselves, but that's one of the key things that I liked about doing the episode on.

women in World War I, realizing just how much of the infrastructure is actually sitting on the shoulders of American women. And yeah, I won't get ahead of myself, but... We'll get there. Yeah, these supportive roles... They're part of what makes the giant machine work. Exactly. Without them, it doesn't work. Yeah. And often they get overlooked a little bit. You know, and I guess one other thing that is perhaps worth touching on is the...

It, man, you know, the fact that there's so many dichotomies here, these men are American, right? And they feel their American-ness and noble cis, I mean, his comment about feeling his American identity ripped away from him as he's put into the French military and given French citizenship.

I mean, imagine this, right? You're firing a different rifle. Okay, that might not sound like a big deal, but it is, especially when the French rifle also sucks. I'm sorry, but La Belle Rifle, it's three rounds versus five. Yeah, no, thank you. You don't need those extra two.

Sure. Yeah. Who needs that when you got machine guns flying at you? So it's unfamiliar, you know, equipment. It's why it's such a big deal to them to get their helmets back. Yeah. You know, this is familiar stuff. And they're dealing with the language barrier. Suddenly they're up command. These are probably not people who have put a lot of effort into learning French. It's probably not...

super useful in their everyday lives? You got, by and large, a bunch of New Yorkers who are working for railroads. There are bellhops. Yeah, I mean, where would they... Where are you going to use French? Now, sure, I'm willing to bet that

I don't recall the time I had. There had to be some who spoke it. Connections down to Louisiana. There's still some, you know, some French speaking there to this day. So, sure. But that was a really painful thing for them, you know, corner to turn. And yet, you know, Pershing, you know, I thought it was important to kind of get all the framing there, right? Where there's, where our commander, you know,

William, Big Bill, right? Big Bill Hayward. He feels like Pershing's just offloaded, basically a quote-unquote problem, right? Dealing with what do I do with combat-trained Black troops in Jim Crow America's military where he's got to deal with the segregation divide and yet also, frankly, crediting the fact that while, yeah, on the one hand, it is kind of a

He's discharging a problem. He's also, as a man who did command black troops previously and is honestly, he's ahead of his time on race, sex, on a number of things, realizing that this is also an opportunity for them, that there are things he cannot do. And he's being told this very directly. Yeah. You will not put black troops into combat.

And under the U.S. flag. Well, OK. OK, then here France wants troops. We'll do it under the French flag. Yeah, they they can fight. They will fight over here. It but amidst all that is even as that allowed these troops to shine as they wanted to and and prove their worth. It also robbed them of their American identity. Yeah.

So, I mean, it's a complicated and messy, which, I mean, that's history. Right. But that episode, perhaps, in particular, really highlights it. It's true. I think there were just a lot of crazy things. Yeah, there's plenty to say on that one. Why don't we go ahead and take one more breather. Okay. And then let's talk about women in the war and get some aviation in there. We've returned. And we're back. We're back. So. Let's talk about women.

In World War I. Let's do that. Which, again, is a topic not fully, not covered very well. I think we hear a lot about women in World War II and you have Rosie the Riveter and all this stuff, but we don't think about World War I was very similar to that. I do think, yes. I mean, first of all, let me not blow past your point. Yes. Right.

Emphatically. Right. We mentioned, didn't have a good story to like highlight that part per se, but that there were women in factories. They take all the jobs that are now vacated. I loved the women alls. Yep. I was not aware of that before. I wasn't either. Yeah. The women alls. That's great. Yeah.

I don't think my daughter's listened to this episode yet. She does faithfully listen to all of them. She's just a little history fiend. Yeah, chip off the old block. I know when she hears that one, there will no longer be overalls in our house. It'll be womanals. It's how I'll know she got to it. Yeah. That's exactly what that will be from here on out. Well, then at least you know she's listening. That's exactly right. Yeah. But yeah, I think that gets back to our...

Let me speak out both sides of my mouth here, because really, that's how history often goes. Yeah. World War I, we play such a minor role compared to World War II when we show up in 1917. We're there for a year. Exactly. But even at the same time as we say that, we're losing sight of what a massive sacrifice it actually was for the U.S. And I mean...

In some ways, I almost wonder if you could magically bring someone back to life from, say, the 1920s or 1930s. I think it would blow people's minds that Black Jack Pershing is not a common household name the way George Washington or Ulysses S. Grant are. Yeah, that's true because he was such an important figure. Right. Like, I'm not saying that people would know his life story backwards and forwards, but frankly, people don't know

Grant or even Washington story backwards and forwards. Yeah. But it's a name they'd be like, yeah, yeah, I recognize. I know who that guy is. These guys were, yeah, generals at the very least, right? Generals and presidents of note in American history. And, you know, we don't know. It's it really World War Two just overshadows so much. Yeah. I think we talk about we're like, oh, yeah, World War One happened.

But let's get on to the big one. It truly is, right? It's like it's a footnote. It's called the Great War, but really, the one... They thought it was. They did. And they were right at the time. Yeah. It was... But the one that's the war, right? When you talk about they served in the war, a lot of people typically are talking about, like, my grandparents were in the war. Yeah.

As, yep. World War II. Right? World War II. I mean, my grandparents helped build airplanes for the war and provided cows. But that was... Provided cows? My dad's dad is a rancher, was a rancher. Oh, okay. So, you know, food for the war and that stuff. But like, you don't think about how World War I was very similar in a lot of ways as far as what happened here at home to World War II.

Yeah. So we, we talk about world war two as this giant thing that kind of overshadows world war one. And I think it's important to recognize the similarities there, especially for women. Yeah. Uh, because like, well, just as world war one kind of births a larger military force, it really has a sizable impact on women's roles in the military, for instance. Yeah. And, uh,

I do think it's important to keep in mind, and I very much tried to frame the episode this way, that World War I is not this moment where the war itself is necessarily the catalyst of change. I like the way, and I'm not original in saying this. I want to be very clear. This is pretty much what every scholar who specializes in this, yeah, it's their language, but calling it an accelerant.

Yeah, these things were happening. But the new woman. This just made it happen faster. Yes. Yeah. It kicked it into high gear. Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating to watch necessity bring the Navy. Say, hey, look at this law. Actually, it doesn't use the word man. It doesn't use the word man in it. Yeoman F is created, right? And then to see the Marines follow. Yeah.

I do want to kind of just take a moment and really highlight the Hello Girls because I'm just so personally impressed. Yeah. With them. That to be able to, I mean, I look at pictures of switchboards and I think, oh my God, how do you know where each switchboard

little pin goes right but to do that in a war situation where you're like you have to get it to the right person especially quickly i wouldn't be able to hold up under that pressure that last story i told about them where they're at samiel they're at the you know yeah obviously they're not in a trench but they're close enough the front lines i mean they can hear

the bombardment out out there right even if it's a more of a distant echo um perhaps feel the shake yeah you're and yeah and here they are far removed from they're flying i mean they're connecting tens of thousands of men are moving and it's being orchestrated and it's happening this is a an american and a french attack every time they're plugging in they don't even know which language they're about to to hear you know and speak and um you know i'm

I'm grateful in this moment to be bilingual and be able to say, you know, that's a frustrating moment. You know, honestly, it's easier and perhaps someone who's better at their second language than me, but I'm pretty decent. They tell me, yeah. You know, when you're flipping back and forth, back and forth, that's it's mentally fatiguing. And these women were doing 12 hour shifts.

It's incredible. They can't get a thing wrong. And let's remember they're speaking in codes to boot. Yeah. Right? Not only are they speaking in multiple languages. Multiple languages, flipping back and forth. Throw codes in there. Connect everything properly. For hours and hours every day in a high stress situation where you've got to get it to the right person. Yeah. No, I mean, lies are on the line. I don't think that's an exaggeration to say. Like the amount of pressure. And it really does...

It chaps my hide that they are then told, but you weren't technically an officer or enlisted, so no pension for you. Yeah, that was really frustrating for me too. I'm glad the Marines and Navy...

Booked that. Yeah, but that was truly frustrating. Yeah. I did love that the Radium girls got talked about a little bit. I'm reading the book. You are, yes. Very slowly, because it's a sad story. Yeah. And they go into a lot of detail about what happened to these girls in the book, and it's just really sad. Oh. I'm trying to imagine, they're like, your bones are breaking. Yeah.

And you have no idea why. Yeah. They didn't know why because radium was supposed to be this miracle. You know, and we can look back and say, oh my gosh, how did they not know that? But we've done this many times over. Yeah.

You only know what you know. Exactly. Well, and that's what they were being told, right? Yes! Radium is this magical thing. If you're being told... You can drink it and it's going to be great for you. And look at how beautiful you look when you get this dust all over you. Imagine what your friends will think when you go out. Right.

Nobody is thinking, oh, if I put this in my mouth, it's going to make my jaw fall apart and I'll die. And there they are. And licking those camel hair bristles to get it nice and sharp so they can get that very straight, perfect one millimeter line on that future dough boy's wristwatch. Yeah. Yeah. It was just...

That's why I have to read it very slowly because it just makes me sad. And I know I say this about whether I say it in an epilogue or, you know, you hear me opine about this every single episode, right? Oh, so many things I wanted to include. Oh, yeah. Right. Oh, yeah. But.

I will make my lamentations yet again here, because this was definitely one of those. I mean, an embarrassment of riches. The Radium Girls could have been an episode by themselves, right? Oh, absolutely. And this is where it's painful to me at times to like... Have to pick and choose. Yes, because I also know what I can't do. Like...

World War I we could do forever. That's true. But there are other podcasts that do World War I forever. So no, like Sam Yel's one, that battle is one episode and we're moving on. And similarly, like, no, I can't indulge

I never can indulge as much as I want to. Yeah. Basically what I'm saying. Yeah. And it is hard. Very, very few episodes are just like this nice. Neat little package. That just perfectly fit within the allotted, you know, number of words to make the right length. Yeah. It's always like. But this one was, this one is a hard one to. Truly. To not dive a little, that deeper dive that you want to do. But it was fun to be able to, to sprinkle and rapidly show. I mean, everything from,

It was so fun getting... Let's just give due note to Will King, our researcher and writer here now. Amazing Will King. Love will to death. He's the one who found the Atlantic Constitution newspaper articles describing the city's first barbaresque. Oh, yeah. Just seeing these changes and also seeing how

All these things are both challenging gender roles and yet reinforcing gender roles. Yeah. I thought that is, that's a fascinating dichotomy. It is. Um, cause it's not something that we're as familiar with, I think because it's, it's not, the world's changed. Yeah. The world has changed. And so you think about, you know, you've grown up in and lived in, yeah. Went through to like experience both sides of this coin. And I,

I love the barber S, right? Yeah. To use the newspaper's term where... They're just... Men don't argue once she has the razor against their neck.

I probably wouldn't either. That was fantastic. One thing that, of course, didn't make it in the episode because, I mean, well, I'll note quickly, Edith Cavill, I was very happy to include because, wow, what a powerful story. And she does play British. She plays a meaningful role in impacting the United States' continuing souring perception of Germany. Yeah. I didn't feel like I was cheating too much. No, because...

Right. This story gets circulated in the United States. And even though she's not American, she's a nurse. Yep. Like she's not there to fight. Which, yeah, the nation of Clara Barton certainly appreciate. Exactly. Yeah. And so to kind of that story tugs at your heartstrings. Yeah. You know, because you're not living it, but you can imagine. Yeah. Yeah.

And the way she so bravely needs her death too. But beyond her, another, we talked about this, and Riley Neubauer, another researcher, she's the one who brought this story to my attention. I wish I could have justified this one, but there were women soldiers. They were on the other front of

Yes.

These are shock troops, a battalion of women shock troops. And just to remind you, a shock troop is someone who goes in on that first wave. The first wave. Yeah, they're your badasses. Yeah. And to get back to the idea of how this war both challenges gender norms and yet reinforces them. So obviously it's a challenge in that, right? Here's a whole freaking battalion of women soldiers.

At the same time, it is quite literally created to shame Russian men who are not fighting. Yeah. Look at what you're making these women do. Right. Right. And so in this mindset, right? Like, yeah, they are more manly than you. So, yeah, it's fascinating. They were pretty. But yeah, you can Google that later if you're interested in looking into the women's battalion of death. Okay. We really need to wrap up. But.

briefly, aviation. We can't blow it off. We cannot. Probably because I just love it. You can tell I love trains and planes. Trains and planes. The things I do like work into. I was a little bit surprised that aviation was only one episode. I was expecting another four part. Like I said, I got a railroad. Okay. But now that I would argue is that the transcontinental railroad is such a, you know, I won't tame myself. I'm like,

That was worth it, Kelsey. Was it? Oh, you're damn right it was. All three of those episodes. But aviation, I mean, I got my fix on the Wright brothers. Yes. Right. So that already, in a way, you could kind of call us a two-parter. Kind of. And this episode, I did start by saying, hey, I mean, we got to go back to Kitty Hawk. That's true. That's true. Because really, it's incredible. We go from celebrating an under one minute flight to...

And not very high. No. To just a little over a decade later, you have, in fact, let's dispel one myth of World War I. These planes, they're not fragile. They aren't these dinky little like... No, they're pulling these crazy stunts. Yes. And machine gun dogfights. I mean, they're not comfortable, but...

Yeah, these are legit, very real, solid, robust- Airplanes. Yes. They're flying, literally, you know, but I meant it speed-wise, right? There's zipping over 100 miles per hour, 10,000 plus feet in the air. I mean, the interrupter gear, that alone, I think is just mind-blowing. I, so, because I knew this episode was coming, my husband and I watched Flyboys, right? And his first question is,

Why did the bullets not hit the propeller? Because that's a legit thought, right? Totally. Behind the propeller, you're going to shoot your propeller to pieces. And so seeing people try and develop this technology that allows you to use a machine gun behind the propeller is, I mean, it made the science in me very happy.

Yes. And of course, I love the workaround for the allies. Like, we can't figure this crap out. We're just going to put it on top. Pull the string. Pull the string, guys.

It's all good. You've got this. I'm trying to imagine what when it jammed. How did you stand up? No, I'm not kidding. This is it. Remember, I made this point in the episode like these guys are amazing. You know, they're treated like rock stars. But frankly, I would say justifiably so not to take away from the soldiers on the ground. Absolutely. Terrifying what they're doing in the trenches. Right. This is also terrifying. Yes. You and there's no parachutes.

So your plane explodes or something? Isn't that insane that they exist, right? And I didn't get to go into this as much as I wanted to in the episode. Again, you're right. Like, trying to create the narrative and be mindful of time. But that...

You had commanders. There are a few reasons why parachutes were cut or not given to them. And one of them was that they feared pilots would unnecessarily abandon these expensive planes. Right. Because they just get scared to be like, oh, yeah. So, no, don't give them parachutes like under the idea that basically let's just let them die.

If their plane explodes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm sure they're thinking like, well, if the plane explodes, they were toast anyway, but this will keep them from bailing on a plane that could be saved. Like, yeah, there's a big gray area in there. There is, there are things in between those. Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm grateful that that's something that dawned on the air force later on. Um,

But really, I mean, the dexterity, the...

Oh, yeah. No, the the calm, cool mind. And that's where these guys. Yeah, they they are definitely living high on the hog compared to troops. Poor Harry S. Truman. I really enjoyed the future president. He did over exaggerate a little bit. And we'll get more of him. Right. We're going into Muzargon. So, you know, we'll have a little more of an opportunity to meet the young officer that is this future president. Yeah.

But really, these guys are this is a torturous battle in their heads. Again, not to take away from the troops. They've got PTSD as well. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm trying to imagine it would be like not only are you potentially going to be shot, but like.

After, if your plane loses, like your engine dies, like you just have to sit in it until you crash. Yeah. And you might die, but you might not. But then they might come and use their machine gun to shoot you while you're on the ground. You know, it's a rough life with a very high mortality rate. Yeah. That was something that kind of shocked me. Yeah. Was just how...

I mean, I guess shocked maybe isn't the right word, but like something you didn't think about. Yeah, I didn't think about it before. How basically short the life expectancy was for some of these pilots. Well, to be fair, that wasn't highlighted too much in James Franco's adaptation. Well, they did say they did say.

Six weeks. Oh, they did. They did. I'll dial that back. I mean, there was not a lot of other. That's a fun movie. I want to be very clear. Oh, I love it. It's a fun movie. It is art. It is not history. Oh, no. But it's such a fun movie. Yeah. Yeah.

I did really appreciate it. By the way, for anyone who's seen that movie, yeah, whiskey and soda, they only used whiskey. And he was a much larger lion. Yes. In the movie than he probably was otherwise. Again, he was a cub when they got him. And he's like halfway grown when he kind of tackles. They had to be terrified. This French commander. I would have been terrified. Yeah. Yeah.

That is a... That's a moment, if I'm picking like a light moment from history to go back and witness, not like some serious moment. That might have been it, to just see this like tough French commander just get nailed by this charging half-grown lion that just starts licking his face. Like a dog, right? Like you have dogs will jump up on you. Yep. I imagine it's probably a little bit scarier when a lion does it. But yeah, I would think so. The...

But, you know, the thing I love about their freaking pets, their mascots, Whiskey and Soda, the name even, right? Yeah. It just highlights what rock stars, you know, what like...

Who these guys were. I mean, they are kind of a little nuts. A little bit. I think you kind of have to be a little bit to be able to get into basically brand new technology. That's crucial. Yeah. Because this isn't just, I mean, mad respect to those who are in the Air Force today, but they're getting into planes that are really well established. Yeah. This is literally crazy.

the very beginning of being able to fly like an airplane like that. I'll go up in that. Also, just put a machine gun up top. I'm just going to give me some grenades or something. I'll just drop them over the side. Yeah.

Like, no, that's, it is insane really. Um, and some of them, I mean, they're just so they're aggressive. Uh, I mean, Kiffin, uh, Rockwell, uh, so patron, uh, patrons at Patreon also got more of his backstory. He, I did his death as the, uh, the mini, uh, I wanted to put that one into the main episode. It's a heart wrenching one. Yeah. I'll leave it at that. But, um,

Yeah, they're aggressive. And I mean, they kind of have to be. Yes. And, you know, for all of that, though, this is another thing that didn't make it in. Only about 200 pilots in the war are doing most of the, I mean, aerial victories to use the euphemism, but, you know, the killing. So you've got the Red Baron, the

Far and away. Yeah, 80 aerial victories. More than everybody else. And, you know, and then you've got so many other pilots. And that's just confirmed kills. Yes. And that, again, we touched on briefly, but, you know,

To have a confirmed kill, it's got to be witnessed. It's got to be taken prisoner. You can't just say, oh, I totally got that guy and have everybody believe you. No, no. And you, of course, have the pilots who come back. They're like, no, I super guys. I shut down like four. Yeah. And of course, they're like nobody else saw it. It's basically the equivalent of today when someone's like, yeah, photo or it didn't happen. Like that's that's essentially what they don't have smartphones or cameras that they can take up there to prove it.

Yeah. I mean, nothing can work that rapidly, right? Yeah. Because they got the cameras for...

surveillance. But yeah, it's a little different. Yeah. In a dog fight. Okay. Well, it was a really fun episode, though. As much as I was really angry that Flyboys led me astray. I'm glad to be set right and still and be able to enjoy that movie. Yes. Continue to enjoy. I still think it's fun to watch. Even if they took Eugene Bullard and threw him into L'Escadrille Lafayette instead of

You know, his actual unit. Yes. Yes. So he's and we'll end on that. The key thing to remember, despite what we all caught in that really fun Hollywood film, you've got Lafayette Escadrille, the Lafayette squadron. There are 38 pilots total that flew in that of the total 269 pilots.

Americans who flew for France, they are collectively referred to as the Lafayette Flying Corps. And that does include the Lafayette Escadrille. They're under that umbrella. But that's where our buddy Eugene falls. Not all American flyboys were part of that one specific squadron. Exactly. But what a legacy they left behind. The expertise they took into this burgeoning

And frankly, no disrespect, but joke of an air service as again, we don't need to go down that road. No, we don't. That's another element. I also appreciated that they were willing to go and join France, essentially. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, it's.

It is very romantic. And of course, there's plenty of ego. Oh, yeah. These are all type A's. Absolutely. And in fact, I didn't have the time to get into that, but there's some serious personality. They get along. They have their great moments, but they also have serious personality conflicts. You're the type of person who goes, my country's not at war, but I want to go across the ocean and I'm going to get a freaking plane, which was like convicted yesterday, and shoot machine guns at...

You have to be a certain type of person to be able to do that. And all of those similar strong personalities. All in one place. Yeah, they might be living under a nice roof, generally speaking, but that's one roof and there's some conflict. Yeah, for sure. We'll leave it there. All right, Kelsey. Hey, thanks for joining me. Always happy to do it. Well, as fun as ever. And join me in two weeks. I'd like to tell you a story.