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Thomas Alva Edison, the Wizard of Menlo Park, as he was known, made a recent appearance in our Origin of the Movies episode.
because in addition to the electric light and countless other inventions, he also gave us the motion picture camera. It reminded me that Edison didn't do well in the traditional school classroom when he was a boy. This prolific inventor and successful businessman learned better at home. At school, it's reported that he'd likely be lost in thought. His mother, Nancy, recognized a different approach to learning was required for her son. And the rest is history. As a parent, I appreciate that.
because each of my own three children are different. They each learn in different ways, and I want them to thrive at whatever they choose to do later in life. One learning option for kids today is K-12. K-12 powered schools are accredited, tuition-free online public schools for students in kindergarten through 12th grade. K-12 can help your child reach their full potential and give you the support you need to get them there.
This is different from homeschooling, where you are responsible for teaching them. K-12 powered schools have state certified teachers, specially trained in teaching online.
So join the more than 2 million families who have chosen K-12 and empower your student to reach their full potential now. Go to k12.com slash HTDS today to learn more and find a tuition-free K-12 powered school near you. That's the letter K, the number 12 dot com slash HTDS. K-12 dot com slash HTDS. ♪♪♪
Welcome to History Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and today it is time for an epilogue. We are done with the Gilded Age. So, I'm joined by our dear friends, Zachary Weaver. Happy to be back, Greg. And we're happy that your mom can hear you again. Hi, Mom. Happy to be here. Give her a good hello. Kelsey, we've already got you laughing, so that's all right. Kelsey Dynes.
I don't know if I need to continue my y'all from the first one or not, but. It's entirely up to you. I know. But now I feel like I have to. I'm going to leave you stewing over these obligations you yourself are imposing and feeling on yourself.
And, you know, we'll just see what happens over the course of the episode. It'll be great. So we are, as I said, we're done with the Gilded Age. We're going to wrap that up today. Have just a few quick corrections. A very exciting announcement, at least I certainly think so. And then we'll go ahead and dive right into the Gilded Age. So first off, I want to express my gratitude to John Cronin.
John didn't say which state. No, he just said... Along the Mississippi River. Yeah, a Mississippi River town. Clearly northern...
Yeah, I think so. Well, that'll be my guess. I don't want to have to correct on where John was from. Correct your correction. Yeah, that feels like a road we don't want to go down. But I refer to the Eads Bridge as being the first bridge to span the Mississippi River. It is the first to span it beneath the confluence between the Missouri and the Mississippi. Yes. So it's certainly a major bridge. And in that context,
Vane. Great. But there were other bridges a little bit farther north that did, in fact, span the Mississippi. So that might be something we actually go and fix. But, you know, we'll cross that bridge. Ah, hilarious. My kids would love that. That's okay. So, John, my gratitude to you. I thank you, sir. We'd also like to express our gratitude to Chris from Alaska. I super just...
Said the wrong river name at one point while recording the episode on Alaska. So that one's a good clip back. In fact, we actually didn't even know which episode I mentioned the Eads Bridge. I'm going to assume that was the Brooklyn Bridge. I'm assuming that was the Brooklyn Bridge because we talk about John Roebling. So our gratitude to Chris. I said what? You said Klondike River. It was the Yukon River. That's a definite fix because...
Yeah, that's big. So those dang geographical. Gets you every time. They sure do. It's true. I did spend a little while looking at the map of Alaska to make sure that I knew which river it was. Kelsey, we appreciate you. We appreciate you. I doubled and triple and quadruple checked. Excellent. That you were wrong. Take that, Greg. I know. I'm all about owning anything. I always want to be spot on and own my imperfections. Here's Kelsey. Let me slap you with it while I'm at it.
That's why I'm here. It is why you're here. Again, we appreciate you. How's the y'all thing going? You're still debating that? Hey, y'all. We're going to get emails from Lucy. I'm not a southerner. I'm only married to one. We know. We know. And we appreciate the barbecue. We do. Now we get to my favorite correction. The most important correction. Oh, no. This is great. I'm just going to read the title of the email.
And I just have to point out that this came out, that this email came within a couple of hours of the epilogue being released. The interlude. The interlude, yeah. Being released. Okay. And I laughed for about five minutes. Let me point out before we get into it. The title of said email, Grievous Error in Simpsons Quote.
And so we express our gratitude to Jorge from Puerto Rico. Zach, would you like to expound on said grievous error? I had said in the previous, well, not epilogue, interlude. Yes. I had made a reference to a quote from Bart the General, which is in season one of The Simpsons, which I was correct about the episode.
where it lands in the episode and the season that it was in. I think Jorge takes issue with your assertion, sir. Which he is absolutely correct. I had said that Bart...
was talking about the three great American wars, being the American Revolution, World War II, and Star Wars was, I believe, my reference. Okay. Yes. And Jorge pointed out that Bart is actually talking about the only justified wars in American history, and that I had also gotten one of the wars wrong. And I do want to point out... Okay. I will say, the second we left the recording studio... You did. ...I looked at Greg, and I said, I messed up that Simpsons thing.
But it'll be fine because no one will notice. And what did I tell you, Zach? What did I tell you in that very moment, sir? Someone out there is going to know the Simpsons better than me and they're going to notice. I told you. And I was... I get a long A or a short A in the name of a riffer that no one lives in here and I'm going to hear about it. I'm telling you. You'll...
But we live and learn. We live and learn. We live and learn. And I do appreciate Jorge Simpson knowledge. I will speak to my credentials for a second. I did win an award at Universal Studios for Simpsons knowledge. Wow. When the 4D Simpsons ride came out. That is stellar. Because I do have the box set of over half the seasons. Wow.
And I did make this error and I do apologize to all the fans out there who you expected better of me. And so did that worker from Universal Studios. He expected better too. They just might rescind your... Honestly, the letters are being removed after my name for that one. Yeah, and they're worth letters. I've been meaning to speak to you about that. I thought it was a little awkward, your emails that...
are signed off and they say Zachary Weaver comma S I M P. Yeah. That's yeah. So thank you, Jorge. Uh, I commend you on your knowledge of the Simpson. That's right. That's right. I'm impressed from one. I tip my hat to you from one legend to another. Okay. Uh, shoot your own horn. Hey, I'm going to point out Zach, uh, with a little love your way. I, uh,
knowledge of early Simpsons episodes and I've just been impressed frankly with your knowledge of really Gen X stuff it is quite impressive we made a reference in this volume to the boss that was you yeah you came up with that was not me Bruce Springsteen yeah and when I saw that I
Honestly, I enjoy my Gen X stuff. Not bad, young man. Not bad. For being a member of Gen Z, I have mad respect for my Gen X older brethren. And it shows. Yeah. And it shows. Okay, so those corrections put out there. We've said hi to Zach's mom. I feel like we've covered the bases on the usual opening things. We are very excited to note that
We have a live show coming up. We're going to do this. We're stepping into that space. This will be in the Memphis area. It's on the night of January 29th. Thank you. Well, you know, I am very organized. So January 29th, it's going to be in the Memphis area.
It is at the Bartlett Performing Arts and Conference Center. We will put a link on History That Doesn't Suck's website. So you can go to htdspodcast.com if you would like to get tickets, if you'd like to come. Zach, I believe your mom is going to be there. Yes, my mom, who lives in Las Vegas, Nevada, found a flight to Memphis because she wants to experience HTDS Live. Well, I mean, we're just excited for this. I mean, I'm excited to meet Zach's mom.
Your old Zach's mom. Yeah. Your mom's good with that? She said that she thinks it's funny. Good. And she thinks it'll be funnier if we never say her name, and she's only referred to as Zach's mom. Oh, that's good, because I don't know her name. We can abide by that. That's great. That's great.
And we'll keep it that way. Translation, please respect my privacy. She said that one day she wants to have an HTDS hat and embroider it with Zach's mom across it. She thought that would be funny. Oh, we can facilitate that. Okay. Okay. So by all means, love to see some of you there if you're in an area or like Zach's mom, you want to fly out. So you'll be able to find
find the link to get tickets at htdspodcast.com. Now, right along with that, I'm going to take advantage of, well, I'm going to carve out some time to make sure that this show is well-prepared and do something that I've mentioned previously, anyhow, wanting to do.
We've been working on second edition of some of the earlier episodes. One has been released. People have had a taste of that. Three was done as a live event this summer. So just as a heads up for listeners, so you know where we're headed for the next few weeks, we're going to do two, four and five in order.
So we'll skip three since it's been done, but two, four, and five. And in those weeks, I'll be able to... It's a lot less work to revisit an episode than to start from scratch. To add a few extra tidbits of information. Yeah. It's a lot less labor intensive. So at any rate, these next few weeks, you can look forward to the second edition versions of two, four, and five, and then the live show. And then, of course, we will continue...
Right on through and into the 20th century. And we'll also have a Christmas episode in there as well. Of course. Always. With some new information. Fun Gilded Age Christmas stories. So we will. Yeah, there's still that. Still that to come. But that's where we're headed. Okay. Let's go ahead and wrap up this Gilded Age though. Absolutely. So few things that we want to touch on. Of course, we'll basically leave things before the interlude alone. We discussed those.
electricity is really where we start post interlude. So Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, the war of the currents, the war of the currents. So Zach, I feel like as we were gearing up for this, you highlighting that you're so not of my generation. You made a great point about our boy, Thomas Alva Edison. Yes. Yeah. One of the points that I had brought up while we were writing the episode was that
For folks from probably older generations, you know, like Greg Jackson. An aged millennial like myself. Older than myself, rather. Yeah.
What I would say is that a lot of people got the idea or the lesson taught in school that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. These are some of the truisms that you learn when you're first learning history in school. In the 80s and 90s. In the 80s and 90s. Yeah, that's definitely how I learned it in elementary school also. When I was in elementary school in the 2000s,
young man here. Indeed you are, sir. Thanks for rubbing it in. I did learn the 1492 rhyme, but I didn't learn that Thomas Edison invented light bulb. And as I grew up and learned more about American history throughout my middle and high school careers, what I learned was that he stole the light bulb. That was the simple lesson that I was taught was that Thomas Edison stole light bulb. He didn't invent it. And I think we've seen, Greg's called it the pendulum swinging back and forth
From Thomas Edison being the venerated hero, the American inventor, period, to Thomas Edison is a thief and doesn't have a head on his shoulders and just stands on the shoulders of giants.
And I think that what we were able to see with the episode and the conclusion that we were able to come to is, like many other things, it's a bit more complicated than that. Nuance, nuance, nuance. Nuance, nuance, nuance. It's like he was a real person with different personality traits that made him both at the same time. Exactly. It's not entirely fair to say Thomas Edison invented lightbulb, period, and
And it's wholly not fair to say Thomas Edison didn't invent the light bulb, period, but that we were able to see what actually happened. And I think that, honestly, that's a more intriguing story and an interesting story than either of those two narratives. Yeah, I enjoyed tracing...
the development of, well, basically our understanding of electricity through lighting in that episode. I mean, even going back to Benjamin Franklin and the kite. And then as you found out, Zach, as we were doing the research, right, that while Franklin came up with the experiment, the French did it first. Yep.
And then Franklin still got around to doing it as well. But, you know, and following all the ways that this bounced around across from the Americas to Europe, these inventors around the world getting arc lighting in the early 1800s. So here we are a full three quarters of a century away from Thomas Alva Edison's famous incandescent bulb. And we've already got arc lighting.
And so seeing the way that this really has developed slowly across multiple countries and just as you should expect with the development of anything, it is the culmination of lots of different ideas and vantage points. But I've observed my two cents as a historian and as someone who spent his adult life teaching this stuff.
We love simple narratives programmed for it. We love it. We want good guys. We want bad guys. We want good versus evil. And to see Thomas Alva Edison as a crucial piece in the evolution of that knowledge is
as opposed to this almost godlike figure who gifts humanity with electricity or, you know, to set him up as the villain. It just doesn't land for us the same way. Just as we could say and have said so many times about other historical figures. It just reminds me. So one of my very favorite classes that I took in college was the history of scientific thought. It wasn't one of the courses I taught. Anyway...
Because I started out as a science person. Yes, you did. I did. I love chemistry. And I loved watching, like looking at how everybody, you just build off of each other's ideas, right? And no, it's not like all of a sudden the light bulb goes off and all of a sudden you have this like,
That's a major new thought that nobody else has ever thought about anything. To be fair, it does go off if it's a poorly made filament, like within minutes. Well, that's true. We learned that. We did. I'm sorry. Keep going. But like you get to see all of these little steps that are taken in developing it. And I love watching, looking at that because that's not something that I ever got to see. You know, as I was growing up and learning about a lot of this stuff, it was very...
This is how it like Thomas Edison invented the light bulb. We talked about nothing before that. Right. And yeah, it was this godlike moment. Exactly. And so I love that we're starting to kind of. He descended from Menlo Park. Yeah. In a cloud. In a cloud. Here's a light bulb. I've come up with it out of my brain and nobody else helped.
It's just me. Thomas Zeus Edison came down and struck lightning. Despite the fact, I mean, he never would have had that narrative, right? No, he wouldn't. He had Menlo Park. He had these assistants. What did he call them? The boys or something? The boys. The boys of Menlo Park. The boys of Menlo Park with the wizard. Yeah. Yeah. These people are not lacking for nicknames. No, they were not. They're definitely down with nicknames. Yeah. But I love it. I love it.
I love that that's becoming more. The way we're looking at things. And hopefully we can remember that more and more. So, you know, you don't have to deify Edison, just as we really shouldn't deify any historical figure. You'll always be upset. You'll always find yourself let down. Because no one can live up to it. It's unfair to historical figures. Similarly, you're probably overstating if you look for full-on...
you know, like he's a terrible person. Yeah. Caricature villains. Going around lurking in the shadows, trying to find ways of ripping everybody off. Right. Although, although. Oh, oh, what you got Zach? I will say, uh,
Although we don't want to deify historical figures here at HTDS, that will not stop Greg from trying to model his life after them. I said that it was unfortunate that we had John Roebling, Thomas Edison, and Andrew Carnegie back to back because now Greg has been on a kick of, oh, I can work harder. Yeah.
See, I thought you were just going to say I'm working you into the ground like it's a steel mill, but... Oh, no. I'm saying you're working yourself into the ground like it's a steel mill. Oh, I mean, some things never change. Some things never change. But it's true, right? I just got like one after another go, oh, yeah, this is reinforcing. I can work harder. Yeah. What a cool guy. This is not a bad lifestyle. I'm making good choices, see? Yeah.
This base is sustainable. So, yeah, I think that that's a—we joke, but I think that is a good way to, like, look at it, where it's, sure, they have some negative qualities. Sure, they have some positive qualities, as every other human being does. These are human beings we're talking about. Right.
I should try and emulate the positive qualities about it. Regardless of your views on Edison inventing light bulb, dude worked and dude worked hard. Yes. And that's a quality I think more people, including myself, want to try to emulate. Well, Zach, I didn't want to bring it up, but now that you have, I'd really appreciate it. Get that research done, boy. Yeah.
You're slacking. No, I completely agree with you. And it's one of the things I enjoy about being a historian. I do like looking at figures and seeing things that work for them, seeing things that didn't work for them. And of course, I make my mistakes, but learning from others is always really productive. Well, that's one thing I like about studying history is there's no shortage of people to learn lessons about life from. Yeah.
Oh, so on the other side of things, we've definitely talked about Alva. We got Nikola.
And these two, I mean, first of all, I'm glad we could dispel in the episode, the misnomer that they, well, two misnomers, right? At the time, the projection by the New York Times. Oh, yes, these two are the best of friends. Yeah. But into the present, again, playing into the shift in narrative that you described from, you know, my aged millennial generation to you young, youthful Gen Zers. Yeah.
Of Alva Edison, you know, going from hero to villain. The idea that, you know, that he and Tesla hated each other. They were like these bitter rivals. And there's certainly some tension. Let's not, you know, downplay the current war, though. Oh, for sure. Tesla also kind of gets upplayed in the narrative now and Westinghouse is somehow...
Not remembered, yeah. Doesn't exist. Because there's no cool car company named after him. When that happens, he can come back into the narrative. Until then, sorry, Westinghouse Automotive. It really is. Yeah, he needed a shorter name if he wanted to be remembered like that. One of the points that we dispelled in that narrative that I think speaks to this point is in the mini episode released on the Patreon for that episode, we talked about the elephant. Mm-hmm.
The elephant in the room, you could say. Topsy the elephant. Topsy the elephant. And the idea that because these experiments had been- A few grimacing patrons on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Not in a bad way. Just, oh, that was an episode. That was a rough one, yeah. Thanks for sharing. But that Edison himself, although he filmed it and probably helped to supply the generators for the killing of Topsy the elephant, it
It was 10 years after the current war, well after both Edison and Tesla had said that they had moved on from that, that they were onto new and better horizons.
But in our look back at that history and the attempt to paint these people as black and white, that's usually been thrown in as an anachronism where it said, no, Edison killed this elephant in the promenade just to show everyone what a jerk Tesla was. When that really didn't play into that narrative, but it's been crafted into it lately. Well, one last thing I do just want to say on them. Edison, that man understood how business could work.
with his ambitions to progress science. Tesla is a dreamer. And I think both of them progressed, moved things forward in different ways, partly because of their very different strengths. I wouldn't hold either of them up as better for those differences, but... Well, they both had something to contribute to that whole... I mean, because we still use both, right? So neither of them
really won, quote unquote. But they each had something unique that they brought to the table that was important. That was the interesting thing that I found as we were, I think it's the first act of the Current War episode when Tesla meets Edison. His biographers portray that as
these two, while they don't fit into our good evil dichotomy, they do fit into a dichotomy of these two look opposite from each other, where Edison is kind of this old, grizzled, shabby,
shabby suit as Midwest American as a Midwest American can get versus Nikola Tesla, who is this effete, classy, cool European who's tall and slender and handsome and debonair and any other adjective you can think of to describe that. Preferably a French one. Greg? Greg?
I go with like a first year French word. That's that's fine. Anyway, so that Edison, that Edison is this businessman to his bones. He less invention and more innovation on current inventions. Tesla's out in the ether thinking of different things. Edison's going to test something 100, 200.
200, 300, 400, thousands of times. Tesla can draw it up and build it like that. I just think that even though they don't fit into that dichotomy, that was the cool thing about that story. That's the crux of that story is how these two people are approaching the world from two totally different worldviews. And yet...
they're able to craft something totally unique that influences everything we do today. I think you nailed the closing thoughts there, Zach. Let's go ahead and take a quick break so that we can then come back when we've got William James Bryan to discuss. And from there, we want to get into the New South and Jim Crow. Talk about that for a bit. So quick break. Be right back.
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And we're back. Now, it dawns on me on my little, we'll take a break. Totally forgot to mention tycoons. Yeah, they'd be really upset about you leaving them out. They would. They would. But at least they'd cover their tracks of anger with a big gift somewhere. Yeah, probably a library or something. Probably a library. Yeah. Music hall, something like that.
So we focused in on Andrew Carnegie, Carnegie, Carnegie. Let's go ahead and get that out there. It's typically pronounced Carnegie today. That's how I grew up saying it. That's how I grew up saying it. As we got to the episode and we knew that.
He actually said his name is Carnegie. Yes. We did that. Yep. Yep. And I guess when enough people say it wrong, that becomes right. That's kind of the rule of pronunciation. Trust me. I know. Yeah, that was fun. I'll say that was one of the more fun accents. I'll just throw that out there. His Scottish. His Scottish accent. The Scottish bro. I definitely had some help from a kind Scotsman. So, yeah.
Yes, my thanks to Jackson across the way and to my dear friend Mike in Boston for facilitating that. Anyhow, so Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller. Zach, you look like a man burning with thoughts. I do have a question. Oh, my goodness. You're going to cut that off. Go right ahead, Kelsey. Mostly because I was not involved in the planning of this. So I'm curious as to why you picked these two, right? There are so many other ones. Sure. What was it about them? You were like, we're going to focus on...
Well, I would say that the main factors were that one, they are two tycoons that frankly, remember the mission of HTDS. This is a survey of US history. So while I do also seek to bring in interesting stories that people often don't know, there's also the need to hit kind of the, you definitely should know this figure or this theme about a given era.
To not know who Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller are and have gone through the tycoons. To me, that felt like those are the two. I mean, man, I just could not see skipping them. And then they also have very rich life stories. Yeah. So there's a lot of interesting stuff to talk about. Zach, we talked about giving our good friend,
Pierpont Morgan a shake. Yes. But with all due respect to the great banker, his life is pretty normal. I would say that those two, just like Greg said, that those two things factor in the choice where it's like,
One, we have to tell the story of American history. And these two are better symbols of the Gilded Age than probably anybody. Well, as I believe I remember saying something to the effect of,
being able to gild the golden age. Yeah, they are the gold on the gilded age. Yeah, right. Yeah, that line is in that episode talking about these two guys, which is not to say that someone like Pierpont Morgan or Jay Gould or those guys don't play a huge role. They definitely do. But the other consideration is that we...
We want to make a history that doesn't suck. And those guys' life story do not suck in the least bit. Yeah, they are fascinating. They are fascinating individuals. Andrew Carnegie in particular. Yes. With those two sides of him, which I think you've talked about a fair amount. Yeah. He's such a complicated... You know, I...
I tend to think of historical figures, I think productively as characters. So I sometimes use that word, even though I'm talking about real people, but he's a complicated character. You've got this man with this genuine internal impulse to give. He wants fat stacks to give away, but how does he get his fat stacks, right? This is a complicated figure. So he's interesting. He's really fascinating to sink your intellectual teeth into, right?
And, you know, Pierpont Morgan, not trying to be unfair to him, but just how many stories can I start with? You know, it's June 3rd, 1890. Pierpont is in his office. Signing a check to buy. With a fountain pen. You know, it just, it's not the same as rags to riches, immigrant from Scotland, absolutely destitute. Johnstown flood.
So those are major factors. Makes sense. Well, we have Kelsey's approval. Good, good. I was seeking that. No, that's what you were all dying for. We're not pulling the episode now. I know. I was thinking about it. So, I mean, we did just hit on the fascinating nature of Carnegie. John Rockefeller, I think, is fascinating in his view that God has given him the gift to make money. And therefore, he must exercise this talent that...
Heaven has bestowed upon him. Is there anything else you think we're already covering the episode? I mean, it's definitely covered, but I was just like really surprised at the fact that his dad was like this super skeevy. Oh, yeah. Snake oil salesman to the max. Like, I will say double family, all that jazz. Yeah. Right. Like on that.
One of my favorite HTDS memories is sitting across from Greg and in Greg's office he has a whiteboard with stories that'll come up from time to time about like, ooh, we should have an episode on that, that needs a mention, et cetera, et cetera. And Snake Oil Salesman has been on there for
for as long as I've been working at HTDS practically. A year plus, man. And I looked at Greg and I said, as we were in the very early stages of research, I said, do you know John Rockefeller's dad was a snake oil salesman? And the lights went on, light bulb. He looked at me and he was like... With a carbon filament. With a carbon filament that burned for 40 hours or four hours. Like cardboard.
Oh, baby. A real Edison. If you didn't listen to that episode, you're just like, what the hell? These people are so ridiculous. This makes no sense. He was so excited and he was like, oh, we got to get that in there. We got to tell the story of a snake oil salesman, Zach. And I was like,
Well, let's do it then. So that was a really fun, fun memory. So, and so that even, you know, goes further in answering your initial question, Kelsey. Oh yeah. But we've probably said enough there. We should move on. William Jennings, Brian. Oh baby. Oh my goodness. Oh baby. You're up Zach.
Go for it, Zach. William Jennings Fry. You're such a fanboy, dude. I love William. I say that with nothing against him. My goodness. I love that the first whole thing
Whole section of this was that we shouldn't, you know, deify historical figures. And then here comes Zach. Here comes Zach. William Jennings Bryan was the most... Get this off your chest. He was so much fun. That was so much fun. And I... We've talked about the fact that for the next, you know,
30 years of history that we're going to go through. There's going to be two characters that are somewhat introduced in this volume and partially the next volume. That being Theodore Roosevelt and William Jennings Bryan. Greg has biographies of almost all the presidents, if not all at this point.
On his shelf are three biographies of Theodore Roosevelt. No, no, no, that's a three-volume biography. One three-volume biography of Theodore Roosevelt. It is rather difficult...
to find a biography of William Jennings Bryan. Well, we discussed it. You need to write that biography, Zach. Get on it, Zach. And it's because he's my new night job. That's right. And it's because he is something of a forgotten character in history. Even though he runs for the presidential elections over and over, he's a born loser. He's...
What did you refer to him as? The Henry Clay of the Gilded Age. The Henry Clay of the Gilded Age. Because he's always running for president. He's never getting it. That's the parallel. And to say he is vilified by...
so many people his entire public life yes um is an understatement he's portrayed as the populist snake that destroyed the democratic party democrats don't like him republicans don't like him um his face over the gold silver debate his face is printed on coins that say in brian we trust and talk about how his silver coins will be worth absolutely nothing if he becomes the president
He is the most fun person, and I feel like a lot of people just don't know about him, really, at all. Well, I can say that I didn't really learn about him. Well, it's helpful for me to hear you two say that, because coming from the ivory tower here, honestly, I'm so used to knowing about him. Yeah. I don't know if I had...
I mean, I'm sure that I had heard of him in my AP U.S. History class. Sure. Undoubtedly. So long ago. I obviously don't remember. But I don't think I had heard his name until maybe a couple of years ago. Okay. I was like, who is that guy? And this just goes to the importance of covering him. Because he is, he's such a crucial piece of the late 19th century. Mm-hmm.
I do think if there's anything we need to underscore and highlight from that episode, it is how important, how crucial the throwdown was over the idea of having silver be minted. That the gold standard that, well, that this coalition of workers from the cities and that farmers are putting together and that
William James Bryan becomes the face up. I mean, this is the major contest, I would say domestically in Gilded Age presidential elections. This is the issue. Not to shortchange Grover the Good and his presidential campaign of whether or not he was involved in a sex scandal or Benjamin Harrison's campaign over his hat. Yeah. And how well it fit. No, these are crucial. Yeah.
deeply important domestic issues. There are some of, as important as those things truly are, they don't really compare to some of the newspaper articles that we found when we were researching that say, we are prepared to have another civil war over the gold-silver issue. In part because you're starting to see, we did the Gilded Age volume right after the Wild West and
And you're starting to see a divide, not between North and South so much, but between East and West in terms of urban versus rural America. Rural Americans are going to love William Jennings Bryan. Colorado votes for him on a record scale. He's the great commoner. He's a good Nebraska boy. And William McKinley represents this effete East Coast elitism in their eyes.
And so that's something that I think is interesting, that it signals a new epoch in American politics that we're going to deal with throughout the progressive era and imperialism and so on. The only caveat I'll add is wanting to be just a little careful and remember that we do have in urban settings some laborers that also are part of that alliance. Yes, absolutely.
And to me, that's really interesting. Ben Sawyer kind of pointed this out in my conversation with him, that when you do, and this is his thing, right? His podcast, they very much are talking about history in the lens of the present. But when you think about how the political alignments are in present day United States, where there's, it's far more stark, the urban and rural. And it just, for me, this just shows how,
You know, it's not like we have any natural divisions that are transcending generations. Know that new issues arise, old issues give way, political coalitions, they come, they go, they shift, they morph. So your boy, he got in there. I thought it was really exciting that we had an actual recording. That was so cool. That was really awesome. To have the Cross of Gold speech. Yeah. The source that that comes from. And that speech, I mean.
Sorry, you go ahead. You're already jumping on it. Oh, I love William Jennings Bryan. I'm happy to be here. And a dollar for every time Zach has said that tonight. I would be so rich. Just so you know, before we did... Would those dollars be minted in... Gold, obviously. When we were doing the sound check before the recordings, Kelsey said, check one, two. And I said, William Jennings Bryan, William Jennings Bryan, because I was getting excited for this.
In their description above reprinting the copy of the speech, it says this is one of the most important speeches of American history. So when you think of that, George Washington's farewell address, Gettysburg address, JFK's inaugural, stuff like that, to think that the cross of gold is up there
and hardly known by anybody, and we have the audio from it. Like, that was just exciting. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I'm glad that we got to use that, too. We just point out that this was a recording of him delivering the speech for a recording. This wasn't the live delivery. So he's... This recording was, as I recall, I believe 20 years later. Yeah, 1910s, 1920s, somewhere in there. But all the same, so exciting to be able to bring an actual voice in. And I'm sure...
I don't know. We'll see a little bit more of that as we continue, as we get more into the modern era. And as long as it's accessible, whether that is I can license it in time or it's just public domain. Yeah, I'm excited for being able to use some of these actual recordings. Yeah. Well, as you know, I mean, I lean into voices or I'll bring on a guest when I can because I like voices.
I like bringing historical figures to life and voice is a part of that. It's well that, you know, just taking this kind of even into the new South Jim Crow episode had two guests on that one. Very excited to have done that. They both did an excellent job, but it is always just another level of, of complication for the size of this show to line people up, make sure it's good enough quality and,
So I love the idea of getting to a point where I can just actually use the recordings of these historical figures that is accessible. So anyhow, why don't we go ahead and make that shift? So New South Jim Crow. I mean, it is, there's just no two ways about it. This is one of the bleakest. It's a, it's a hard topic. It was not a fun episode to write. It's important one. It's the,
real exclamation point on the death of Reconstruction. It's the final compromised position from the promise that came with the Civil Rights Amendments 13, 14, and 15, the watered-down Democrat quote-unquote redemption landing point. And this is how it's going to go for the next few decades. I think that...
We spent a lot of time preparing that episode. I can't say I have a ton more to add from what was in there, perhaps beyond really maybe want to put an exclamation point on, you know, as we went through some of those newspaper articles, I, I,
Man, I obsessed over some of the great finds because I want to give credit where credit's due, Zach. You found those newspaper articles. Thank you very much. Thank you for finding them. I mean, they were just great in terms of, you know, helping to bring us into this space. Mm-hmm.
And I believe this was articulated, and if not, then of course I just own my own human failings. But when I said that the press was cruel to Frederick Douglass, we're not talking about like a, oh, the media is being cruel to him and the American public feels differently about
The attitudes that we were seeing in those newspaper clippings, these were not fringe publications. This is reflective of attitudes in Gilded Age America. So when we have an article, for instance, one that we read where the Louisiana Separate Car Act of 1890 that Plessy is pushing against, standing up against,
And the newspaper recounts a story of two women, a white woman and a black woman, riding in a car together. It basically says that just recounting the story is sufficient evidence for the need for this law. It's not like you have large swaths of people that are upset at that narrative. That is reflective of the average vantage point. Wow, you two are quiet. It's a somber topic. I know, I know.
Well, it's just, it's important to know that this wasn't, like, we talk about Jim Crow as being this, like, very Southern thing, but it's not. Yeah. I think one of the things that gave me hope, because it's a hard episode to research and write for and to listen to, and it's a tough one. The only ones that I would put up there with it were the Reconstruction and Indian Wars episodes. Yeah. Hard. Yeah.
And one of the things that gave me hope as we were doing the research and writing is the stories of perseverance that come out of that. Yeah. That in the middle of that
You have Robert Smalls, who is fighting against the grain. You have Homer Plessy, who's fighting against the grain. Again, this was a Patreon mini-episode, but the story of Frederick Douglass meeting with Captain Thomas Auld, who was his former slave master, and being able to sit down and when his former slave master calls him Marshall Douglass, because he was a United States Marshal at that point, and Frederick says, Sir, call me Frederick as formerly,
That was such a touching moment that in the midst of this horrible backdrop of violence against African-American communities and Jim Crow and those types of things, that there are people, one, who are fighting against it, and two, who are able to have hearts so big that they persevere through it. Yeah, Frederick Douglass, he's just a next level person.
There's no two ways about that. I mean, the thing I really keep in mind, Dan, I know we've discussed this a lot, Zach. He's extending forgiveness to his former enslaver, but it's not, I mean, it's not as though he's... Excusing slavery. Yes, exactly. He's... When he's not saying it didn't happen. Right. Yeah. Yeah, he's the bold civil rights hero, you know, fighter that he is, abolitionist and...
through the era in which slavery exists. And then he offers forgiveness. It's, he is... Hard to lose him and Grant in the same volume. Yeah, I know. That's sad. It is. So. Yeah. But we do like to give a send off to very influential, important Americans as we go through this podcast. And Frederick Douglass certainly... Definitely qualifies. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah. I liked him as a historical figure before doing this podcast, but, you know, I get to know so many historical figures better in the process. And that man is among the best of any generation, you know, so. Yeah, I was really glad I got to know a little bit more about him because, you know, we always talked about him, but I didn't really ever get to go in depth with him.
on him and so i appreciated that following his i mean through multiple episodes you know following his his incredible fighting back while enslaved his escape his fighting to enslavery his friendship with abraham lincoln i mean it yeah this was it was good to be able to tell those stories yeah
So let's go ahead and take a break here. And then Zach and I are complete Edgar Allen Poe fanboys. Kelsey does not understand the goodness of Poe. So when we come back. Goodness is not the word I would use. When we come back, we will explain the grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt goodness of Edgar Allen Poe to Kelsey. And it'll be amazing. And we're back. Oh. Oh.
Edgar Allan Poe. Edgar Allan Poe. Now it's time to make heroes. He'll let them into the historical figures. He's one of my absolute favorite authors. He's one of mine too. Like in terms of poetry. Oh man, he's... The man is so... I don't want to say underrated. Oh, but he is. But he is. I don't care if he's famous. He's still underrated. Look, he...
He has so many stories beyond the typical ones that should be known. And that's where The Cask of Monteato. Absolute favorite of mine. I remember reading it in high school and just being electrified by it. I mean, how terrifying. We had to act it out in middle school, if you can believe that. We had to, in my...
No. Is this how your teacher dealt with students they didn't like? Like, yeah, we're just going to build this wall. Super sorry about it. I think I misspoke. Here, hand me some more bricks. We acted it out in high school. It was in my 10th grade English class. And we had like, like yarn. And my professor had us like tie one of the students up to the wall and pretend that we were masoning up the wall in front of him.
And I fell in love. And this is why I didn't take traditional English classes in high school. Then you missed out. No, I would have been the kid tied to the wall for some reason. And it would have scarred me for life even more.
Then this has already scarred me. Then the episode scarred you. Well, you are just welcome, Kelsey. You're welcome for this exposure. I knew that. I mean, prose or poetry? Where should we begin, Zach? Where should we begin? Well, you have to end with the raven. Okay. You have to end with poetry. Okay, okay. So we begin with the prose. Please. Look, he is among, if not the inventor of the detective story. Yes, he is. Okay.
Murders at the Rue Morgue. Yes. And it is so... I don't want to give away the story because I just want everybody to go read it. But I have never met anyone who...
told me, and I'm sure someone's out there, okay? That's fine. We'll get an email. Yeah, I'll get it. I wasn't going to say it, but Kelsey says it. I've never met anyone who said, oh, yeah, as I was reading this, I figured out who the murderer was. Oh, yeah. I didn't figure it out until... Right? Yes. What on earth? It...
The fact that someone can do that can even come up with that. And the fact that he's Edgar Allen Poe, like he's the Gothic guy and he goes, you know what? I'm going to write a detective story and it's going to be one of the best detective stories ever written. I'm kind of a boss in my own field, but why not just invent another? Exactly. Um, so that's one of my absolute favorites. The house of Usher. Follow the house of Usher. Yes. Yeah. Uh,
I just find it beautiful. I do. In a dark, I know a very dark way. Plenty of people listening are like, so Zach and Greg have very, yeah. Macabre to say the least. Indeed. Macabre, which I now know, thanks to both of you and, and, and, uh, Lindsey Graham over at Airship. Yes. Uh, it's not macabre. Um, yeah.
I know. I know. I always said it in the French way. Thanks for letting me know. But that's beside the point. The point here is Poe. The point is Poe. Yes. So. Telltale heart. I love the telltale heart.
the ultimate short story. Poe has in, I think it's in Philosophy of Composition, he says something where he's like, every short story you should be able to, Poe never wrote a novel because he always said that you should be able to read it in one sitting. In one sitting to go through the emotions of Telltale Heart, masterpiece. Hey, can we just point out that Poe today would have been a master of TikTok or
Or Twitter. Oh, 100%. This is a dude who gets how short people's attention spans are. Get to the point. But he doesn't get to the point. Not really. Oh, come on. What? Oh, come on. Defend your thesis, madam. How long was that thing? How long did I hear him talking about the heart beating in the floor? I'm sorry. I believe that there were three amazing stories told with a cold open the boot. And that episode was still under an hour.
I fear your premise is greatly lacking. It probably just felt a lot longer to me.
Should I just turn Kelsey's mic off? Please. I feel like that'd be the best. Okay. One of the nerds here. One of my absolute favorites. Published in The Sun newspaper, which listeners here at HTDS should be familiar with. I'll remind everyone that last year's Christmas special, we read about a young girl, Virginia, right? She wrote to The Sun about whether or not there was a Santa Claus. Okay, so we're speaking of that famous New York-based newspaper.
newspaper, the sun Poe in 1844 publishes in the sun newspaper, this article, it says astounding news. And it goes on to claim that it's this report of an Atlantic crossing happening in a mere three days in a flying machine. Okay. So basically a balloon.
The dude passes this off as a true story. The Sun publishes it as a true story. He's basically turned the Sun newspaper into the National Enquirer. And they don't realize that it's a hoax that Poe has just completely faked them out for two whole days. People are buying up these newspapers en masse. I mean, the Sun is selling out, but of course, then the gag is up a few days later. The Sun is absolutely embarrassed and has to print a retraction.
This, Kelsey, this is the brilliance that we're talking about here. I never said he wasn't a good writer. I appreciate, I could say he has very good literary skills. I will own that. I've said that. I just struggle being drawn into such depressing. Sick mind is what you're saying. I've, I've, this jumps a little into the poetry. I have wept.
I think every time I've ever read Annabelle Lee, that's a tearjerker for me. That's a hard one. And I think it reflects Poe's difficult life. And the essence of true art, Kelsey, is to draw from one's own life. And Poe does that masterfully.
So again, I appreciate his literary skill. Kelsey, it's okay. It's okay. We still like you. You're among friends here. That's good. It's all right. Nothing you say will make me fall in love with him the way that you guys have.
It's okay. Not everyone gets to know true love in life. I mean, not of Poe, anyway. No. It's all right. Okay, so, I mean, the raven we already did describe. We should go ahead and get over to poetry. We don't need to really geek out too long here. But anything else you wanted to add, Zach? On the raven? On the raven.
Is there another poem you want to hit first? Oh, no. Okay. Let's just go to Raven. Everything should make way for the Raven. It should. The only piece of writing that I have published in an academic journal. It's true. Greg knows this. I do. Is an interpretation of the Raven. Is a writing of the Raven. And I chose that. It's for an undergraduate journal called Americana. For
For Americana, it's an American Studies journal. You can talk about pretty much anything that has to do with America. And I chose one of the greatest American authors, Edgar Allan Poe, with one of the greatest American poems, The Raven, and chose to interpret that poem because it's so beautifully written and thematically rich and just Kelsey. I'm going to say it again. He could write.
It's okay. It's okay. I have been drawn to his alliteration. That is something that if you think about it, you've heard throughout the entirety of HTDS all the way back to episode one. His love for alliteration, it jives with me. It's impacted my own writing style. And if anyone is half as big a nerd for Poe as Zach and myself,
I will say, I've never acknowledged this publicly, there are Easter eggs for Poe fans,
Throughout HTTPS, I drop in things and never acknowledge them that are all nods to the king of American Gothic, as I like to call him. Go back and listen from episode one and see if you can pick up. They are. I will just say they are there. And that's it. And leave it. Leave it at that. It's no fun if I actually point out. No, no, no, no, no, no. Can't do that. No, no, no.
So, also, I think it's worth noting, Zach, you're the only other person I know who was dumb enough to spend, I don't know what amount of your life, I don't know what amount of my life, I memorized The Raven long ago. You did too. Yes. I think it was at one point, I think, again, we were in your office. You were talking about The Raven, having it memorized, and you said something like,
Once Upon a Midnight Drury, and I just picked up from there. And you looked up and you're like, you're a fellow memorizer. You're part of the club in your cask of a Montiato. I looked at you and I said, a sign. I pulled a trowel from my back pocket and Greg said, you jest.
And Zach was never allowed in my basement ever again. Oh man. All right. I think we should probably leave it at that. Yeah. Zach, Kelsey, thank you as always for joining me for an epilogue. Thank you for listening both to this episode and continuing to listen to HTDS. I continue to be honored and grateful and look forward to
Releasing some second editions of some of the earlier episodes in the next two to three episodes. That was a lot of the word episode. But looking forward to doing that. Looking forward to doing this live show in January. Hope that some of you can join us there. And well, join us in two weeks. I'd like to tell you a story. See ya.
HTVS is supported by fans at patreon.com forward slash history that doesn't suck. My gratitude to Kind Souls for providing funding to help us keep going. Thank you. And a special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them on producer status.
Anthony Pizzulo, Art Lang, Beth M. Christiansen, Bev Hawkins, Bill Thompson, Bob Drazovich, Brad Herman, Brian Goodson, Bronwyn Cohen, Charles and Shirley Clendenin, Chris Mendoza, Christopher McBride, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, Clayton Crouch, Dane Poulsen, David Aubrey, David DeFazio, David Rifkin,
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