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Moscow police are investigating a homicide on King Road. The cause and manner of the death was homicide by stabbing. This is terrible. It's a bloodbath. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Episode 11, a discussion with reporter Chris Bargo. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell.
In this roundtable episode, recorded on Wednesday, July 26, the producers Stephanie Lidecker and Connor Powell are joined by Inside Edition reporter Chris Bargo to discuss Brian Koberger's alibi and his defense team's efforts to discredit the DNA evidence against him. Here they are now. So I'm here now with Chris and Connor, who have been contributing on the podcast,
really since the very beginning, and Chris specifically has been knee-deep in this case since day one, and really was our first contact of interaction when it came to covering this case because you were on the front lines of it from day one. And of course, Connor has been not only putting this together as a producer, but also as a contributor and executive producer. So let's start with the biggest piece of information that happened just now, essentially, which really does indicate
shine a very different light potentially on the entire case, which is this notion that Brian Koberger's attorney is saying that he in fact had an alibi.
Yeah, that's right. It was pretty big news, kind of the biggest news we've gotten so far. For the past month, really, the defense has been slowly sort of poking holes in the prosecution's case. And we know that the prosecution has been very eager to get this alibi, what the alibi was going to be. And they've been waiting. And then kind of out of nowhere, it was filed in the middle of the day. And it's an interesting filing because it
It is not concrete. What it says is we potentially have an alibi, and if we did have an alibi, this is what it would be, and this is how we go about proving it. They're very heavily suggesting is the fact that Brian Koberger was not present at the scene of the murders, at the time of the murders, that he was somewhere else. And they are suggesting that there will be witnesses who have called to testify will be able to back up this claim.
It's not a definitive concrete thing, but this is not the sort of attorney who's really kind of into game playing or stuff like that. So it'd be very odd for her to sort of be pulling any sort of stunt. It would seem very unlike her nature. So this is a good chance. This is going to be the alibi they're going to go for. And if we remember, the good thing about this alibi is the fact that the tracking of Brian Koperger's cell phone on the night of the murders has him in Pullman, Washington at quarter to
quarter of three, and then about 20 miles south of Moscow at just before 5 a.m. So he's never in Moscow the night of the murders, according to his cell phone. Obviously, there's footage of a car, but they've already been disputing that the car is his. So it makes sense with the information we have so far. It's certainly something that there's not immediately a way to disregard it or say that it's not true. So it'll be interesting to see where they take it from here. Do we have any indication on who the potential witnesses could be?
This is another interesting thing about this filing. There's a suggestion in there that one of the witnesses for the state, for the prosecution, could actually confirm this claim. Now, that would more likely maybe be someone from, let's say, the cell phone company or someone who would be confirming one of the facts that he wasn't in Moscow, according to their records. But also, it could mean that someone might actually have information about him legitimately being somewhere else. It's really open because they're not being very specific. Yeah.
This really does change the course of the entire case potentially. And of course, when I immediately spoke to Connor about it, you had a very different reaction to the filing. I'm going to pour some cold water on this because of course, Brian Koberger's defense team is going to say he's not guilty. That's the only thing they can say. They can't say anything else. So they have to say this. Also, and I think this is the key thing, under Idaho law,
The defense must notify the prosecution of a possibility of an alibi defense. And as I understand it, listening to other commentators reading about this, is that this filing merely preserves that right without committing to it.
It doesn't say that they have an alibi. It says that they are possibly going to use it in trial and that they're going to continue investigating and that they might actually challenge through cross-examination some of the prosecution's witnesses as a possible avenue to presenting this alibi. So they're not actually saying they have an alibi. They're not actually saying that they're going to use it. They're saying they're going to preserve the right to use it at trial.
And that's required under Idaho law. So that's different than some states, right? So they had to provide at least this. I think the other thing that's really important is this defense team is very quiet, very tight-lipped. They provided nothing. They haven't pushed back on anything. The only thing we've ever heard is from his original defense lawyer in Pennsylvania who said, Brian's excited to be exonerated, right? That's the closest we've heard
So they've basically taken a hands-off approach and said, we're not going to provide anything. We're going to do what's required, but we're not going to provide anything. I think if they had an airtight, 100% lockdown concrete alibi, they would be presenting that right now.
now, not only because it would be good for their case in the court of public opinion, if he's 100% innocent, defense attorneys like to get that information out there. Why would you wait anywhere from three months to six months to nine months to 12 months to go to trial with somebody that you have concrete proof evidence? He was in Florida during the time of this. There was no way he could have done it, right? So whatever alibi they might have,
I think the suggestion is probably it's not airtight. And it's not to say it's not an alibi. It's not to say that it won't work at trial. It's not to say that the prosecution has this sewn up. But I do think that if they had an airtight, 100% definitive 12 people saw him in Florida at the time of the murders, they would be waving that out right now. And they're not doing that. It's not to say that they won't produce that at some point, but they're not doing it today. And I think that tells you a lot about this alibi filing.
But that doesn't change the fact that his DNA was in fact found on the sheath, right? So even if he did have an alibi, they would still have to explain away why the DNA testing points to him to such a degree. Have you heard anything, Chris, about that? Those are two very big things, right? There being DNA at the crime scene of Brian, his own personal DNA, not just the DNA of his father's,
versus him literally not being there. I mean, I think that the DNA is the weakest part of this case because remember, it's just reasonable doubt to get off. You have DNA of three other people at the scene we know now, and the chain of command of the DNA is very, very confusing. We have it going to the local lab, then we have the Idaho State Police sending it to a national lab. The Idaho State Police suddenly deciding they're not going to follow through about halfway through the testing process and handing it over to the FBI. The FBI taking it from that point over.
And then the interesting thing is that the prosecutors are now hesitant to hand over that evidence. And they're claiming it's because it's federal FBI evidence. And the FBI only gave them a name, nothing else with it. So they don't have to hand over everything else because they're saying all they got from the FBI was a name, not the sort of whole genealogy of it all, which is very interesting. And if a jury hears this, along with the fact that there's the DNA of other people, it's not going to be that hard. I mean, I think the classic example is the OJ case where they thought DNA was a slam dunk. And then as they're explaining it to people, it's really...
It's a very scientific, difficult thing to understand. And it's easy to explain away at times because it's just, you know, it's a very small sample on a knife, a knife sheath rather, that a lot of people probably handled potentially. I'm sure that the crime scene is going to be talked about a lot because these are local officers who'd never really been on a murder scene and how it was treated. So there's going to be a lot of ways they're going to poke holes in this. I think it's really one of the weakest parts of the
prosecution's sort of case and i think they're aware of that too which is why they're so hesitant to really turn over any of the sort of dna information that they have we've talked about this a little bit offline in the past is like they're going to make the prosecution prove every single piece of evidence right and they're going to try to muddle that and make it as confusing as possible
because they only need one person. I don't think the DNA in terms of what was swiped from his mouth with the buccal swab and the knife evidence DNA is difficult for a jury to understand. It's not 1994 anymore. We're way past OJ Simpson in terms of the understanding of DNA.
But that whole bridge between there, they're clearly going to make this really difficult for everybody to understand. And they're going to try to even get that DNA thrown out because of the way they arrive to it. And I think if we see anything that is a strategy that's appearing right now, it's to reserve the right to challenge everything, right? Yeah.
and to push back on everything. And I think Chris is right. That DNA becomes really problematic for them if the judge or something gets thrown out in terms of that process. - Chris, have you heard any more rumblings from the family? Obviously there's a gag order and the family has been asked not to speak out. And we of course are being very respectful of that. But in your circles as a journalist, have you heard anything regarding the family? - The Klobbergers? - Correct.
I had heard rumblings that the sisters were really just praying he was going to do a plea deal because they were just like, our parents can't go through this. Our parents can't, like, this is just not something that they're ready for. By all accounts, these are the two nicest people, you know, like the mother's lovely, nice was a substitute teacher. The father's a great guy who was like really just trying to go to bat for his son all the time and get him to make friends and do things social and get him out there. And they just feel like it's just such a devastating thing for them. And
You know, I think you will see that really in the way that the media is not really hounding them. They're kind of leaving them alone. It's just it's really it's a really sad story for these two parents who, by all accounts, did everything for their son. I mean, we were going through financial records recently. And every time Brian entered a new stage of his education, looks like they were taking up mortgages on their home for amounts of money that would seem to suggest they're basically funding his education, doing everything they can for this kid. And it's just devastating for them.
It's so well said, and obviously for the victims' families, so devastating. But yeah, to your point, even in the spirit of making this podcast since the first day, we really wanted to sort of take a step back and look at his upbringing to see what were the triggers, what were the warning signs. And despite anything we've discussed, nobody has a bad thing to say about the parents and his sisters. And what an annihilating moment for them and a weight to carry.
It's really unimaginable and it's every parent's nightmare. And our hearts genuinely go out to them. Yeah. I mean, in many ways, they're also losing a child. You know, obviously not as horrible as the victim's families, but I mean, their son is probably going to be away for the rest of his life. So that's it.
We've seen this a little bit with the BTK killer and his family. And again, the weight that has to be carried moving forward must be unbearable. We've just, again, really tried to keep it very respectful in terms of their privacy during this difficult time, as well as with the family members of the victims. Again, everyone's gearing up for what could be a trial. So far, nothing is pointing to the idea of a plea deal. But who
who knows what's to come. This is a little bit of a change of conversation though, at the bare minimum. I understand the DNA genealogy, et cetera, that being air quotes, potentially junk science, and that can be explained away. But an alibi to me seems like a pretty big bomb that they would have to be able to back up. But Connor, to your point, they're just making the suggestion that they may want to go that route.
Yeah, I mean, and they have to. I mean, again, the defense is setting up to challenge everything. And they have to. I mean, legally, they're required to provide the best defense that they can to Brian Koberger. And they did file at the 11th hour, too. Right. They filed that, like, literally at the 11th hour. And also, I had seen something, and I'm not 100% sure and clear on this, but I had seen something that their best chance of getting the DNA thrown out is...
is if they can prove that he was somewhere else, right? Because all of a sudden the sample size of the DNA, which is really small on the knife sheath, if he's somewhere else and there's people who can say it, well, the judge can be like, well, obviously if 12 people saw him somewhere else at this period of time, he probably wasn't holding that knife. And oh, and oh, he bought a similar knife and returned it on Amazon or something like
They have to be able to explain that away in the pretrial hearings. So they're setting up that possibility, but they've not committed to anything. And part of it is that there's still very early stages in terms of building a defense. But until they get that DNA evidence in the paperwork from the prosecution and the FBI and the
Orthram labs, you know, they don't really know what they're working with. And I think that's really, it's a crucial part of this entire process until they get access to all of that information. They don't know what their defense is going to be. I wouldn't think.
I mean, there's also the fact that I think that the one thing that we all kind of keep forgetting is the fact that the number of people who shoot a stranger is low. The number of people who shoot multiple strangers is low. The number of people who stab a stranger is so low. The number of people who stab four strangers in their home. I don't think there's another case I've ever seen where someone stabbed four strangers to death in a home. And we still don't have any link between him and the victims. And that is going to be a, I mean, it just doesn't happen. It just really does not happen. There has to be some level of, you know, knowing the person and we haven't seen any sort of relationship really that they've
brought out or proven the prosecution at all. So that's going to be a really hard thing for people to sort of comprehend, I think, too. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
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I was just speaking to a criminologist this morning, actually, talking about this case. And he said, just echoing what you said, Chris, it is so rare for a person to go from a regular civilian to a mass murderer. Like, there's usually a tipping point. There's typically something that happens prior. There's typically some sort of an event that's the test run of it all. And we really have...
looked at this very closely to see, has there been a history here outside of being bullied or, you know, we've talked about his childhood and his high school and, you know, his education, et cetera, but we haven't been able to find the one thing that would suggest, ooh, maybe he struck prior.
There's some sort of link between a previous event that led to maybe this big event. Because likely, just looking at his profile, according to this criminologist, he may have become a serial killer had he gotten away with this, had he not been apprehended. Again, assuming he is guilty. He is saying he is innocent and we are not looking to convict him here on this podcast.
But all that to be said, we haven't actually found that pre-smoking gun. Chris, have you heard anything new about any other situations that would maybe point to a history or something as a pre-event? We know that some law enforcement agencies in Pennsylvania are looking into things other than murders. We know that there's other illegal activities that they are looking into and seeing if maybe there is a pattern of that prior. They won't be specific, but I mean, there are other crimes that men sometimes commit, like
It could be robbery. It could be burglary. It could be sexual assault. We don't really know for sure. We just know that a few of those local departments had been looking into that and they've not said anything since. So it could be maybe he was committing some other crime and got caught or who knows. But that's certainly something that they've been looking into because you're right. It is incredibly weird to suddenly not only
murder for people if he is the actual killer but to do it in roughly 10 minutes and make an exit is that doesn't seem like sort of a first time thing it's and he's when he's seen exiting the home by the eyewitness the killer they don't know any blood or anything on them they just say you know they're
average build, whatever. And obviously they didn't look in such a state that the person immediately called police. So you would think that if he looked like he'd just murdered four people, whoever the person was, the roommate would call the police, but she just thought it looked like a regular person. So someone who did it quickly and looked like nothing had just happened. That's very bizarre for a first time killer.
I do think one of the things about this case that's really interesting is he obviously is accused of killing four people. If he is the killer, we don't know if his intent was to kill four people, right? So was he tiptoeing in thinking he was going to kill one person? Did he end up finding two people in bed? Did he end up finding two people downstairs that he didn't imagine? Did he get scared and not kill other people in the house? Because we know there were other people.
two roommates? That's all the sort of question about, did he go from zero to 100 in terms of killing people in one night? Or did he think he was tiptoeing in if he is, in fact, guilty? That's just one of the many things we don't know. And I think one of the things that's so frustrating about this case is there's a lot of holes in what the prosecution is saying. And maybe some of it we'll be able to, you know, we'll understand at trial. But as of right now, the basic information of the case hasn't moved significantly in months.
And is it possible that maybe he had an emotional connection in his mind, perhaps only with one of the victims, had a knife allegedly snuck in the house, maybe was going to sexually assault one of them or have a visit with one of them. And that escalated and that turned to mass murder when maybe that wasn't the initial intent. But again, it feels as though it would have been messier. The walls were literally bleeding of blood.
How could that not be bigger in terms of the information that we have right now? And it's a little scary in a way, because if Brian Koberger isn't the one who did it, then who did? And that means that person is still at large. You know, one of the comparisons or non comparisons to the Pikedon massacre and the loss of the Rodin family is it didn't really feel, at least when we started on that case and we went there in person, it didn't feel as though, oh, my goodness, the
the the Wagners were probably killing everybody in the town or that they had previously been murdering people or that it wasn't very specific to one particular family and that the Wagners at the time when we started were claiming their innocence still they're the accused who have now three of the four of them have either pled or have been found guilty there's still one more trial to go but
this is a little different in that number one, if he didn't do it, this guy is getting tried in the press time and time again. How could he possibly have a fair trial? And moreover, then that means there's somebody at large that's a danger to society. And if he did do it,
why are they not throwing some of this information out or at least showing a little bit of the smoking gun? Because I know, again, I know the answer to this. There's a trial coming and they want to keep their cards close. But I mean, I think the biggest problem with what we're all saying right now too is the fact that he left the fifth roommate alive. Like in order to pass by Dylan in that doorway, he is literally within inches of her.
So if you're going to murder four people, I mean, it's a horrible thing to think, but whoever this murderer is, he murders four people, leaves the one person who actually witnesses the eyewitness out of it. That's a bizarre move. And this is the one thing I think that is helpful for the prosecution is you think if he saw Dylan, that explains why he turns his phone on before he's back in Pullman.
10 miles down the road, he's like, I got to check and make sure no one's on my tail. Let me see. Let me get back on my phone so I have my network again. But I mean, the fact that he's so close to Dylan and doesn't do anything is very, whoever the killer is, that's a very difficult thing that they're going to have to sort of explain. And I almost wonder if they're not going to introduce that to the case at all. And it is getting to the point now where I mean, the defense rather has filed a brief that really put a hole in a lot of the things and really kind of
I mean, the biggest thing to me that they put out in one of their briefs is the fact that they requested the notes from the Idaho State Police, Moscow Police, and FBI agents who were present at the autopsy. And the prosecution said none of those three departments took any notes at the autopsy. If you're at the autopsy of these four victims and there's no suspect, you don't know what's going on, how do you not take any notes at all? That's a very... And that sort of...
sow some seeds of mistrust, I think, in the law enforcement when that's presented at trial. I think that's, you know, sort of one of those things you kind of put a shink in the armor with. Stephanie, I want to ask you something about in the connection to Piketon, because the Wagners were running around for like the better part of two years, right? Claiming they had alibis, claiming they were innocent. I mean, when you guys first started looking at Piketon...
Do you remember all the different alibis and claims of innocence that the Wideners had in terms of not being connected to murdering the Rodin family? 100%. That's basically when we started really digging in is when they were in the throes of, A, claiming their innocence. And they had moved to Alaska. They felt as though...
the town was being too gossipy and that they were the center of gossip. And it was a very hard place to live because of that. And as you know, there were pillars of the town and suddenly there's been this murder and the boys wanted to move on as fathers. And as a family, they all collectively moved to Alaska. And we're making the documentary right now for NBC. And very recently, when I was there last, we were going through old family photos of theirs, of the Wagner family.
And while they were in Alaska, and it's chilling in retrospect, but while they were in Alaska, they picked up their lives, they started working again, and they went to church. And there's photographs of them as a family in matching Christmas pajamas and family photos on a boat. And they're out fishing as a group, smiling ear to ear. Life really did appear to move on for them very easily. And they really did present
as though they were not only innocent, but very innocent. In fact, that they were almost being targeted as an excuse to not do better investigating so much so that they had to actually move out of town and that they were just an example of faulty police work.
Life goes on and they picked up the pieces and they really did. Chilling to think, you know, wow, what we know now is that they, at least three of the four have said that they were at least a part of murdering these beautiful people, all eight of them.
you would think you would not be able to eat, drink, drive, do anything that's air quotes normal again in life because you're forever changed and now you've been soaked in others' blood. And then you look at these photographs and you know what? If we worked next to them at CVS, you wouldn't notice. Or if you, yeah, shared a cubicle or were on an airplane with them, they would just seem like a lovely family of somebody you would not be afraid.
And I think Brian sort of falls into that category a little bit too, where he's not the obvious scary person. You know, he might be sitting next to you on the train and yeah, maybe he seems a little bit odd or a little off, but if anything, you kind of feel like, oh, just an awkward guy, not a big deal. You don't think in a million years, this is a person that's going to be murdering potentially or allegedly, you know, four beautiful humans. How do you go on the next day and go back to school?
And that's been one of the triggers, I think, even while we've got involved in this case is, yeah, listen, A, how can we help? But also the idea of the air quote bad guy or the killers, the idea that you could commit such a hideous crime and then the day after,
in the Wagner's case, in the Python murders, they went to the funerals and they picked up the pieces and they started a GoFundMe page and they took support and they took tears and they cried on other people's shoulders in the town. Meanwhile, they were
the killers the whole time? How do you keep a straight face and how do you not crack times four? And in Brian's case, allegedly, same thing. You go back to school the next day, you roll into the real world, you hop in a car with your dad and do a road trip. It just seems impossible that there wouldn't be more tells. And I think that's the creepiest part about the Pikedon case is even when I was in the courtroom listening to Angela Wagner accuse killer mom's testimony, she still presents pretty meek and frankly, air quotes, likable
You know, they have the shtick to be able to kind of live amongst us. And I think that's the scariest part. Well, and also like two parallels in terms of talking about Brian Koberger is like, I don't think the Wideners have been accused of murder before. Right. So somehow they went from zero to killing eight people. And that's even more so because how many crime scenes were there in that case? There's only one crime scene in Koberger. There's right. Right.
that's insane and with the wagner's like they didn't start out trying to kill a people but there were a couple people who ended up being there that weren't supposed to be there and then they sort of said well if you're going to kill this person you got to kill this person because that person is going to come after you and so you can also see where this can just spiral out of control when you kill your first person and the next thing you know you've got to kill multiple people
that's what makes both of these cases so fascinating. Because I think for the average person listening, sitting here talking, you can't contemplate killing one person, let alone multiple people. But there obviously are people who can and when it happens, they end up killing more than one person. I think the fact that even people who have done it before don't have 100% rate and both of these murders, whoever committed them, every person they tried to kill, they killed, they did not leave anyone, you know, wounded, or they shot eight people, eight people died. He
This person stabbed four people, four people died. That was it. There wasn't any sort of like someone, you know, recovered or someone wasn't fully... That's kind of the most amazing. Even with serial killers, I mean, there's always one or two who get away. No one got away from these killers. It's so true. And you think about the families too that we spoke about earlier in the Pikedon case, the family of the victims and the family of the accused. They've been ripped.
apart emotionally. No matter what side of the equation on it you are, it's devastating beyond words. And in Brian's case as well, to your point, he had nice parents, he has nice sisters, he had a decent education, he seemed to have a lot of opportunity. What a mess, what a mess, what a mess. And not to jump around to one hideous case to the next, but I'm obviously a Long Islander, the recent capture of the Long Island serial killer. Again,
Again, who is this scary guy that's commuting on the Long Island Railroad to work every day sitting next to somebody who might say, God, the guy's large and slightly creepy, but I don't know. He works with people every single day. And this guy's going home and just dumping girls in burlap bags. How does that happen?
And the fact that the eyewitness who police say led to the arrest told him about it in 2011. In 2011, this guy said, this is who the person is. He'd seen him with one of the girls. And it's 12 years later that it's finally like, okay. Chris, you said something about Brian Koberger's family. And immediately I went to the Long Island killer because his wife...
immediately filed for divorce, right? You know, unlike in movies where, you know, the partner sort of always seems to know or whatever, like, it's very clear, she's divorcing him, she's saying she didn't know, there's also some reports that he always killed when they were out of town and stuff like that. But like Brian Koberger's family can't divorce them, right? The parents can't, they're still the parents, the sisters are still the sisters. And not that it's good to be married and have the option to divorce a serial killer. But like she gets to say, I knew nothing. I'm, I want nothing to do with this guy.
Brian Koberger's family, they're stuck with him. They're stuck with the same last name. They're stuck with being the parents. And these murders are all so interesting by themselves. But when you sort of start to think about how they're connected and the ways they're connected, there's just some really interesting sort of links between these killers. Let's stop here for another break. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
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I think that the defense filing that was sort of poking holes, there's some good stuff. You know, they point out that the only video they claim to have of the car is going the wrong way at the wrong time. There's, based on discovery and what they're saying, there's no clear image of the person driving the car so far that they've received at least. The defense says that they've still not provided any link that says that Brian Cooper knew any of the victims.
I mean, again, this is, you know, it's all sort of, it's playing out, you know, and because of the gag order, we can't call prosecutors or the defense or anyone in the case and ask if things are true or not, or get clarification, which is why this case is still sort of theoretical in many ways. But I think that the defense has certainly put the case in a position I didn't think it was going to be. If you asked me two months ago, I would have think it'd be a slam dunk case. I wouldn't think there'd be any chance of,
It just all seems so perfect. And then prosecution's obviously not saying as many things in their filings as the defense, but the defense is saying a lot of things that are sort of... And to Connor's point earlier about the DNA, it's right. If it was just a buccal swab, people understand that. We took a swab of his mouth, we compared it to the knife, they matched, that's it. It's all going to be very, very interesting to see how this plays out. And it could just be the prosecution staying quiet on purpose and just sort of holding their cards tight to their chest, but we will see in a few months.
I think we're unlikely to see an October trial. I mean, talking to everyone we've talked to, the fact of the matter is, is August is a dead month in any courtroom in any place in America. So nothing's going to probably they might have one hearing in the middle of August, but then like until after Labor Day, courts generally shut down. So then all of a sudden, you know, you're five weeks from the start of a trial after Labor Day. So a lot has to happen for a trial to start on October 2nd. And it just doesn't seem likely.
Which also is a layer that we have to be mindful of too. The idea that they're going for death penalty stipulations will also make this a little bit harder for a jury to convict. You know, that is a big cross to bear. And if any of this can be confusing or the filing says very little and is very vague,
And it does, though, just take one person to feel a tinge unclear. Maybe the death sentence provisions is too much, or is that a way of the prosecution saying we have the goods and we are going full blown to make sure that this person is convicted and that justice is done and that death is the result?
Yeah, I mean, Idaho is one of about three or four states that's uniquely positioned to for prosecutors to chase death penalty without much fear that the overall population is going to be squeamish, you know, using it. I mean, obviously, there are people in Idaho, but like,
Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, Idaho are probably four out of the, I don't know, five states that if you're a prosecutor wanting to use the death penalty as a punishment, you probably want to be in. And I would put Idaho as probably one or two in that list. I would venture to say that
The prosecution isn't worried about the jury if he gets a conviction about, you know, the application of the death penalty in the state of Idaho. And have you heard anything, Chris, from the victims' families at all? I've spoken to the families. I've spoken to all four families, yes, at some point. And it's very interesting to see how they are each handling it in a very uniquely different way.
There are some people like Kaylee's family, the Gonsalves, who are very, very involved in the trial. And then there's people like the Chapins who have a very sort of, I mean, their approach to this all is just very sort of, you know, it's incredible in the sense that they're just really not choosing to get weighed down by any of the actual murder. The murder is not something they think about. They think about losing their son, but they don't think about how they lost their son. They really focus on their two children they still have.
They really just want to remember happy things and happy memories. And that's how they want to sort of, it's just a really sort of beautiful thing that must be incredibly hard to do, but what they've adopted and they just really just want to, you know, only carry good, wonderful things about their son or them. They don't want to really, they don't seem much interested in the trial or any of that because they just don't want to revisit that.
Which is also an interesting thing about this debate about the house. You know, these people keep talking about leaving the house up or demolishing it. And you have to remember the two people who can still see the house are Ethan's sister and brother every day. And they probably don't want to see it. Ethan's brother can see it from his frat house. You know, that's probably the worst thing in the world. I'm having to look at that house every day. So I imagine like, you know, it's eventually going to get demolished. But it'd be nice if the prosecution defense say they're done with it. You would think it'd be nice for those two kids at least to not have to look at that house every time they're at school because it's just going to be devastating to see that and think about your brother.
Yeah, this whole debate over the house, you can see it from both sides or many sides, right? Where the families, they want to ensure that there's a conviction. They don't want anything to be a possibility that hinders a conviction. You can see it from the university's point of view where they're like, can we get this down? I think the other thing that's really interesting is that sort of
criminal tourism that people coming by to see the house. If you're a neighbor on that street, I mean, God only knows how many cars or people, buses, you can understand that that's happening. So this debate has been really interesting to watch it play out the last couple of months because you can understand it from everybody's point of view. It's one of those things like, I don't know, from my point of view, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. There's just at some point there's going to be a decision.
Yeah. I mean, it is interesting. I mean, both the defense and prosecution have said there's nothing there. I mean, I think a house tour would probably be beneficial for the jurors. I can understand it from that aspect, but I was surprised that both sides of the defense and the prosecution are both like, no, we don't need it, which kind of surprised me because usually you would think they would do a house visit at some point during the trial, but maybe not. That happened with OJ, but it doesn't actually happen in most murder cases where they go to see, and that would be a media circus. I mean, I don't think the prosecution has any plans to do it at all. That's why I think they have no, nothing. Right.
And for our listeners, too, if anybody listening has any information or any tips or details that they want to share, please do reach out to us directly. And needless to say, this is a case that we will continue to cover. And if this trial does in fact happen in October or somewhere close by, it will be one of the biggest trials that this country has seen in a long time. And
We will 100% be there every step of the way. I'm sure there's more hiccups and surprises to come. So Chris Conner, for your reporting this entire season, so well done. Thank you for having me. More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios.
The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
I'm Deanna, who you may know as Body Movin'. My friend and I, John Green, were featured in the Netflix documentary, Don't F with Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes with John and Deanna, we're turning our online investigative skills to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases. ♪
Police say 33-year-old Breidigan was shot dead. Gunned down in front of his two-year-old daughter. Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack. It appears to be an execution-style assassination. This is very active, so we have to be careful. I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies in the basement. I knew. I just knew something was wrong. Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something, please...
It's never too late to do the right thing. This is True Crimes with John and Deanna. The production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something that takes different shapes or forms.
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