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When did the switch flip to where the only resolution was to go and kill them all? This is The Piked Massacre, Return to Pike County, Season 3, Episode 11. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. Recently, Stephanie Lidecker, forensic expert Joseph Morgan, and I were invited to speak at an event called CrimeCon in Las Vegas, Nevada.
CrimeCon is a large expo event where true crime fans can meet and discuss cases from their favorite crime shows and podcasts. We were honored to attend and were able to record a Q&A on their stage with fans from across the country. George and Billy Wagner have pleaded not guilty to charges of murdering the Rodin family. This discussion was meant to serve as a conversation of things we've covered in the podcast and heard from our sources.
Because the trials are still upcoming, much of it remains speculation based on the criminal allegations against the accused and their actions. It's important to keep in mind that all parties are innocent until they are proven guilty or enter a guilty plea. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a live Q&A episode of the Piketon Massacre. Now, please welcome to the stage Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Leidecker, and Joseph Morgan.
Yeah, and thank you. To the voice of Courtney Armstrong.
It's a lot easier in my closet versus with all of you, but you're such a welcoming audience, and we, again, are just grateful you're here, and I, yeah, we are grateful. Yeah, thank you for even being here. We're true crime fans. And this particular case, I think, has gotten into our personal DNA in a way I can't quite describe. We have a few questions that people have...
written in via social media or in various ways. So we were going to ask some of the most popular ones, and then we're excited to hear any additional ones. So a lot of people asked, before the arrests happened, what did you think had happened that night to the eight members of the Rodin family who were murdered? And is there a difference now after the neighboring family, the Wagners, have been arrested? So Stephanie?
For me personally, when we first got involved with the case, we thought it was the cartel or something nefarious unrelated to the Wagner family or that there was no such thing as a killer mother or that a family could do that to somebody who they knew so well. And they say truth is stranger than fiction, right? So as it turns out, we might have been wrong. Although this season, I will say, and Joseph, we all...
This is all we talk about. There are new theories and there's new information that we have access to now that kind of shakes a lot of those theories up. We're frankly more confused than ever.
Yeah, and one thing that I think my opinion is evolving, like Steph said, I also thought it had to be a professional who navigated four different locations in one night for eight people. But as bits and pieces have come out in trials and with different motions back and forth, I'm definitely...
inch by inch more convinced that the Wagners, they indeed have the right people behind bars. Yeah. I got to tell you, y'all listen for a second. And just, I've had several people ask me this question, actually two since I've been here relative to Piketon. And I think it's an interesting idea. If you're the Wagners, what's that conversation like in a car? If you're on the way to four separate locations. Yeah. Yeah.
They were allegedly having murder meetings. Like a family of four was enjoying dinner and talking about murdering a family. Yeah, and I got a few, I guess a year ago, two years ago, I went up to the crime scenes to take a look. And the home that the Wagners had previously occupied, it's this beautiful green lush area. And it's this, you know, this multi-story old farmhouse with pastures behind it.
it. And, you know, I sat there and I was outside the home and I was thinking, so it's in this home where you've celebrated Christmas and Thanksgiving and everything as a family. And maybe you're sitting around that table and maybe talking about completely and totally ending a familial line at that point in time. Just let that sink in just for a second. And this is a conversation that you're having across the dinner table.
And then that night, you know, I know you guys and I have talked about it's, you know, for me as an investigator, it's the timing element. How do you get this down so that you go from point A to point D and you don't get caught? How is it that you do this? And that has, as an investigator, it left me scratching my head. And I'm with staff the first time I heard it. I'm thinking, yeah, this is some kind of organized crime here. They've come in. They have
They've angered the wrong person. And I think in this case, it looks like they may have angered the wrong family. And not to mention, that's four people. We all follow true crime for a living, right? You guys are here because you have this brain to be able to solve things. Four people sticking to the same story. So grown adults, four of them, allegedly decided to get into a car and go to one house together.
then go to another house, get back in the car, then go to another house, get back in the car. At what point does one of them not say, no, or enough? We've murdered too many. To get through four locations in one night and to know that it's just potentially people who many say are lovely and never would know it in a million years. You know, we want to be able to spot the boogeyman for ourselves. They don't fit the bill.
And in one of our trips, and we've had the benefit of going several times over the years as we've been just can't let this case go, obviously. And we've driven several times from, as Joseph said, from A to B to C to D. Not that we know the order. No one... No one knows what the order is yet. No one knows the order yet. And just...
Yeah, the consciousness of, like Stephanie said, you start the car back up and sit back down, you know, and then to take a longer road because three of the houses are very close together. But then when you go to Kenneth Road, it's more than 10 minutes, right?
So the consciousness, there's no spur of the moment. You are simmering in what you've done. Not to mention waking up the next day. All four of them lived together and then woke up the next day, took showers, and then pretended that they were desperate to find out who did it. Had the nerve to talk to press and give interviews and say we miss these victims and...
Honestly, that's a hard thing to do also for people just zipping it and not flubbing their alibi. You know, to that point, this is one of the things that has chilled me to my bone. And that is when they got up the next morning, this family had essentially been eradicated. However, someone knew that there were two babies that were wallowing in blood, their mother's blood.
In that environment, left behind. A five-day-old, yeah. I mean, can you begin to fathom that? I've seen my share of cases in Atlanta and New Orleans, working for the ME in the corner, but I'd never... When they told me this, you think you've seen a thing or two, but as the team began to explain it to me, I began to try to put the pieces together forensically, and of course...
The dad in me, the grandpa in me, you know, I begin to think about this, and I'm thinking, who could do this? Who could be this callous? And Joseph, he's done a beautiful job, but, you know, maybe as a death investigator, you can talk a little bit about...
the types of shots or the amount of shots. Yeah. Yeah, we do have some solid information relative to the number of gunshot wounds that were involved. And there is a, this is not an execution style classically, as Stephanie had pointed out, where you think about somebody kneeling before you and you shoot them in the back of the head.
A new mother is essentially shot in the face five times. One of the rounds actually entered her eye. And so that gives you relative to orientation, relative to the victim, to the muzzle of the weapon,
They are literally staring down the long axis of the barrel if she was still alive at the point in time. And again, we have not been able to go through the autopsy report in detail. So we don't know where, like for what wound tracks still have indwelling hemorrhage, which is one of the things that we look at to see if an individual has sustained a post-mortem or an anti-mortem insult at that point in time.
But she was looking down the barrel of this. She's in bed at this moment in time. And the picture that this creates is that an individual has gotten onto the bed or adjacent to the bed and fired directly into her face, that there may have been an awareness
They may have shown up also with flashlights to kind of blind or disorient at that point in time. You can imagine with you're in total darkness, just for a moment, kind of imagine in your mind that you're in total deep sleep and suddenly a flashlight is in your face and
there might be screaming involved, your newborn baby is cradled in your arms immediately adjacent to you, and maybe for a second you see a flash and then your life ends, but it doesn't end simply there because they continue to fire over and over and over again. We've heard terms like homemade silencers being created, and also an interesting little caveat is that
We've also heard the term brass catcher, and for those of you that are not familiar with firearms, if you're using a semi-automatic firearm, it's going to eject brass, spent brass. The idea is to catch the brass so that not only are you trying to muffle the sound, because there's not really any such thing as a silencer, it's a suppressor. You're trying to muffle the sound, and then you're trying to catch all of the brass so
so that you cannot leave anything that can be traced back forensically at that point in time because we can look at spent casings along the same line as we do ballistic examinations on spent rounds. It's not quite as accurate. You've got extraction marks, soft brass, but you can tie them back in a general sort of manner to a particular manufacturer. So they came prepared. That's what we're talking about.
I have a question right here. So watching Jake Wagner plead guilty in court, did you guys see any kind of nonverbal signs that maybe he was ashamed, had regret? Because I think I did, especially when they called out his name. So you guys do think maybe he's had a come to Jesus moment in prison. I couldn't, I literally couldn't believe it. And it's funny, you're saying maybe he was showing remorse or
Listen, it's a facial thing and you can read it different ways. I saw it as a smirk, whatever that means, I don't know. He kind of smiled. Yeah. I found it revolting, his reaction. I can tell you that. Yeah.
And it's just about to heat up because trials are starting and we now have new information from Angela. And even Angela Wagner, we now, it's very rare. We all know, we all worked on the Nancy Grace series together. That's how we met Joseph. So we all were raised in the house of true crime, you know, by the best.
It is very rare to see that many women involved in a case this violent. It's very rare to see women allowing that level of violence against other women, let alone other mothers, let alone other mothers holding their children.
It is a rare thing. And now to know that Angela Wagner was buying silencer equipment at Walmart looking like just one of us. She looks so normal. She's buying silencers for her kids to go murder people. It's unfathomable, really. Yeah, it is. And there was recently a hearing, a Daubert hearing as it's referred to. And it's kind of the measure of the evidence and the veracity of the evidence or the validity of the evidence that's being put forward
and it had to do with shoe print evidence. And so what has come out is apparently that mom had gone to Walmart and bought a very specific type of shoe. And again,
premeditation, going to thinking about this, what can we buy that's new that is not going to be traced back specifically to us because there's no wear patterns. The shoes are new at this point in time. It's not like they're worn down and you can tell somebody can pronate or supinate and all those things we look at in forensic footwear. These are brand new. Maybe they had enough thought about this to go and purchase these shoes and of course we've got trials coming up and we'll see how this plays out as it goes forward.
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Bringing it back to those shoes that Angela bought, so just to set the stage and remind people who have listened or inform people who haven't, the accused family, the Wagners, is mother Angela, late 40s, I believe she's 50 now, father Billy, and their two sons in their 20s. So just to set the stage. And, you know, Stephanie started talking about how Angela planned, and she physically bought Stephanie's,
stuff for this murder. They have her on surveillance at Walmart, buying it. And a lot of people have asked about all of the mothers involved in this case and what our thoughts are. Stephanie, if you want to speak to mothers and how they play into this. What kind of a screwy mother would allow, allegedly, her sons to murder a plan she puts in place and
then tells them all to zip it so they can all go about their lives. We never heard of a killer family. Again, we're all true crime people. Very rare for a family to kill together adults on top of it who were functional members of the plan. Like everybody liked them. We heard very nice things about them. And to know that Angela Wagner by her own admission at this point was actually the one that planned the whole thing. So if she wants custody of her granddaughter, right?
Her big plan is to make her own sons murder. I won't get Joseph started on this, but Joseph's my most, we think he's the most interesting person alive for the record. The notion that the authorities, the sheriff specifically, who's currently behind bars for taking bribes in unrelated cases,
They moved all of the crime scenes. So we all know if there was a crime happening right this second here, God forbid, the doors would shut, the police would be here, nothing would be touched, right? We would preserve this sacred crime scene. How about the fact that four locations, they literally put the homes on a truck and moved it across town, pretty much guaranteeing that nothing is sacred from a forensic standpoint, which if they had gone to trial...
Had Jake not confessed, they might have gotten away with it simply because a good lawyer would have said they tampered with evidence. That's when Joseph got involved. When, again, Joseph threw Nancy. We were like, Joseph, this makes no sense. And just another thing on the evidentiary handling of these crime scenes, not only were they moved, disrupting everything. Everything. They were then, and this is fact, they then were unguarded. Yes.
They were completely unguarded. We've spoken to attorneys and journalists who went there, and one of the attorneys said, you know, I've been practicing 50 years, do the math on how old I am. He said, I could hop that fence and do what you will with the evidence. So I think all of us are. I'm particularly so curious how that will play out in the trials. There's actually floating around out there a photo that's kind of iconic to me where
these trailers, these mobile homes. And when I say mobile home, I'm not talking about like a trailer, like an RV. I'm talking about a mobile home. I was at this site. I could see where the thing, it was hooked up to septic and, you know, the water pipe. The stubs are still in the ground. And I'll get back to that in just a second. But
The place where these things were deposited, it looks like an old hangar almost. It's a vast area. And there's kind of this iconic photo now where these things are in there and there's a main entrance gate and the gate is cracked open.
And someone is on the outside. Now, this violates, from a forensic standpoint, this violates every principle that you guys hear about us talk about here where it comes to crime scene security and holding on to the evidence. Exactly. Because you have to be able to preserve the chain. Well, I don't know about you guys, but if I've got four crime scenes which are being housed in a warehouse, I think it's pretty important to be able to, at least at a rudimentary level, to demonstrate...
that we give a damn about it and we're going to lock the gate. You know what I'm saying? And so that's just one of the issues in when... Do you remember what we talked about just a few moments ago where we were talking about gunfire, right? So let's say, for instance, and we've got... I can't do the math off the top of my head. Math's hard. But anyway, we've got the math...
that gives us a huge number of rounds that have been popped off in this house. 32 gunshot wounds. 32. And what do we talk about all the time? You hear us talk about, pontificate about things in crime scenes. One of the things we talk about is bullet trajectories, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, if you're in a mobile home or if a mobile home is being transported, you've got multiple...
that have been fired in this environment that's now rolling down the road, bumping up and down the road, and not just that, it's swaying back and forth. Can you tell me, and if I was a defense attorney, I would ask this question. It needs to be asked and answered. Can you guarantee safety?
that these walls are still plumb? Can you give us an idea that when, because you're putting them there not just to secure them, you're putting them there to examine them in real time, not just to preserve the evidence, but remember what we do as forensic scientists. We're kind of
in a sense, we want to preserve that environment so that it can be documented and presented in court. Well, is this a real and true and accurate representation of what was actually there before they removed it off of the foundations and traveled down these roads? And I got to tell you, and I know they can testify to it, when I say roads, this road is like as wide. We had to pull over on the side of the road to let other cars pass. It's very remote. Yeah. It's this wide.
And you're talking about these narrow little lanes that they're dragging these things down. Look, don't believe me. Go on the internet. There's the pictures of the mobile homes going down the road and being towed. But that's when they got out to the main road. These twists and turns that they're having to take. Not to mention, how do you secure anything that was nailed to the wall or that's hung on the wall? That stuff's going to fall off.
How do you know that nothing was broken in there? And can you prove it? Can you demonstrate it? And at the end of the day, that's what the prosecutors are going to have to do. I think this is a big uphill climb for them from an evidentiary standpoint. Let's stop here for another break.
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We'd love to hear any questions. We have a couple of more, but you guys are here. It was all about his little girl so mama could, grandma could finally have her baby girl. Why on earth did he throw everybody else under the bridge? We sobbed. Courtney and I have worked together for decades. We cried because it was such a stain on humanity that hearing him say, I'm guilty, it was
He also apparently has found God in prison and has been reformed, and his brother has requested solitary confinement. Religion plays an interesting role also. We also have heard that they're getting threats behind bars and that that might be part of the reason why he's confessing. Mm-hmm. Oh, man.
And not to mention, apparently, nobody knew when Jake confessed, we're told that his mother, his father and his other brother had no idea he was going to plead, which really screws them and leaves them with the bag. So he, although was taking the death sentence part off the table, he was also sealing their fate because had they all gone to trial and kept quiet, all of this forensics probably would have been up for conversation and they might have gotten off. And interestingly enough,
And this is something that's new since... So, as Stephanie said, it was maybe he found religion. Everyone says God is in a lot of prisons because a lot of people seem to find religion there. But, you know, and maybe he wanted to save the lives and that's why he testified...
But it's become clear in different court motions and different stuff the prosecutor has gone on record that if Jake does not testify to the prosecution's liking and to the extent of what he has agreed to, guess what? The death penalty is right back on the table for everybody. We had never heard of that before. Imagine you take a plea agreement, you get your family off of death sentences...
However, when you go to trial to testify against them in front of them, which will be the first time they all see each other eye to eye, will be when Jake is testifying against them. Bring it up. Hold on. Someone is going to. Yes, you got it. Very kindly come. And while that's coming, just thank you for listening. I think we all are just very like minded and just being justice junkies. We really genuinely it's not grisly stuff that we enjoy. It's.
trying to figure out the why and the who. And the truth, yeah. I have a question. Hannah Roden is the one that had the baby, correct? And she's the one that had the child with Jake, right? Okay. Why... Thank God they did, but why do you think that they left the baby alive? Like, wasn't that a point of contention in that family? Yes, it was. And this... Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question. So part of...
Let me phrase this simply. It's such a layered question, actually. You know, as Stephanie mentioned, custody is a piece of this. Whether it was the full thing will come out in the wash. Angela, Jake's mother. So this grandmother who P.S. had her grandchildren call her mama and told the mothers that you are not their mother. You gave birth, but I am their mother. Just a little hint into her mindset. But...
Why did they leave that baby alive? So they had the three-year-old that they shared, and the Wagners filed for custody of this five-day-old baby, saying that...
will need her sister with her so it was a to keep them together and then one other interesting thing on that is in the event that hannah may died which of course this poor girl was murdered 19 years old then custody would go to jake if jake the father died custody would not go back to his mother hannah may it would go to angela the grandmother and that was with forged documents and
It was a summer of love. Hannah was a young girl, right? She met somebody else. She had a new boyfriend, Charlie Gilly. Interestingly, I've always thought Frankie Rodin, the eldest victim's son, was sleeping beside his fiancee, and the three-year-old is the one that got under the bed, the zombie story. Hannah Gilly was shot five times in the face, which was the second most of any of them. And I never understood why.
The connection might be, not proven, but this is my theory personal, is that Hannah Gilley's brother was Charlie Gilley, who was the boy that Hannah Mae was dating and not with Jake anymore. So there is like a legit little love triangle happening here. But at the time of the murders, Jake and Hannah were still seeing each other from what we now know.
She was keeping things nice. She was doing a lot of social media posting, asking for help. She obviously felt bullied by the Wagner family and by Jake.
She probably just wanted to get rid of him, but at the time of the murders, Jake really did believe that five-day-old was his. So much so, in the days right after the murders, he filed for custody and they did paternity tests. So why would he kill her if he thought maybe they could get back together because that baby was his? What is your theory why they gave the mother such a great plea deal of 30 years and took away the aggravated murder? Angela.
Yeah, it's being speculated that Angela was not there that night and that she sent everybody out that night and that she was looking after the grandkids because we've been obsessed with that. If like the Jake picked up his daughter outside of their custody plan the day of the murders by coincidence, then that night they all go out and murder everybody who was watching the kids.
Anybody who was watching the kids would know that they weren't with the kids the night of the murder, and then therefore they should be held accountable. My two cents. It's been keeping us up at night. They found a box, like a Xerox paper box, that said important stuff on it. And in it was all the evidence. Yes.
Like literally. Truth. Yeah. Why would you not get rid of the evidence? And that they were clever enough to do surveillance. They had cameras. They were watching every, they were in every Instagram account, every coming and going. That's kind of when we got involved too, the idea that the killer dogs that were trained attack. So that was not uncommon, but the idea that they didn't attack.
Kind of uncommon, right? So they must have known the assailants. And there wasn't any noticeable forced entry. Joseph can speak more to this. So somebody probably, we think, either had a key or went through a window. They knew the family very well, so the dogs...
knew them, so that wouldn't be unusual. And if it was the cartel, which was the initial idea, the cartel would have not left anything breathing, including the dogs. They would have killed the dogs, killed the babies. It would have been an assassination in and out, as opposed to what we now know to be this enormous overkill. We've thought of this theory.
There is no way in the world Angela is going to let these three men go take care of her plot. Who's taking care of the grandkids? Frederica. Yes, that is the question. That's what I believe too. I'm with you on that. Can you share with us anything new about the Grand Matriarch Frederica? Yes.
She answered the phone recently when we called. Yeah. She wouldn't speak with us. Courtney and I debate this all the time. I'll tell you my side of it. Frederica is the grandmother on the accused side. People loved her. We heard very loving things about her, that she was sweet and kind, and she denies that her family is involved still. However, Courtney's heard quite the opposite, and...
I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin, right? And yes, Frederica did do altruistic things for the community. So that is true.
Also true is that she had quite a bit of land, and so people would rent land, and they would say, okay, so by the time, and they'd make payments like on a car, the theory being, okay, when you pay us the X amount, that house is yours, you own it. Well, cut to, this happened over and over, she'd pull it out right at the end, oh, you missed a payment or whatever small thing, and she was stealing back these people's homes. So...
That's a matter of fact, too. That's not speculation. In the land of speculation, though. After they have pled guilty, if you found out any kind of scoop, ask her her response. She says that she still doesn't believe it. And we have called her directly and her family members directly.
But one thing was, because she was quite vocal, Frederica, in the press, and she has, I believe this is fact, has not spoken to the press since the plea deals. But we've spoken, as Steph said, to people who are very close with her. She wears that black veil, like right out of Central Casting, too. You know, she wears a black veil like the godmother, goes to court. She looks so docile, like the sweetest little grandmama you could ever wish for. Yeah.
Meanwhile, she's allegedly raised up a generation of murderers. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. This has been CrimeCon 2022. Thank you. Thank you, Gus. Thank you. Thank you. Please email us if you have a question real time. We really do try to listen and respond within the episode. So if something pops up, we would like to stay engaged.
If you're enjoying The Piked Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy in Love. New episodes air every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Piked Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, and me, Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Astin. Audio mixing by Ken Novak. The Piketon Massacre is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. We'd love for you to join us at CrimeCon's next big event. More details to come on our website.
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