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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week, straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling, some unnerving, some even downright terrifying. But all of them will be totally true.
Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This just in today, attorneys for George Wagner IV say there is proof he did not kill any of the eight victims and therefore could avoid the death penalty. Judge Randy Deering heard an impassioned plea from George Wagner's attorney who said his client never pulled a trigger on the night eight members of the Roden family were killed execution style. The state made a deal with the devil, basically.
So far, Edward Jake Wagner and his mother, Angela Wagner, have confessed to prosecutors and have agreed to testify against the rest of the family. George and Billy Wagner are still going through the court process. The trial has been set for April of next year. This is George Wagner's defense attorney talking about Jake Wagner.
He's the person that is most responsible for this. He's the actual killer. He's the actual shooter. He's the one that snuck into these homes in the middle of the night and shot the victims in the head. All right? Our client didn't shoot anybody. I know he says we made a deal with the devil. Unfortunately, there's more than one devil in this case, and that is all four of the individuals who are charged in this matter. This is The Pikedon Massacre, Return to Pike County, Season 3, Episode 4,
State of Ohio versus George Wagner IV. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. With both Jake and Angela taking plea deals, the possible outcome of George Wagner's trial seems, on the surface, limited in scope. It is anything but that. The defense is trying to position themselves to win the case by limiting what evidence will be admissible through a series of motions.
Each motion involves a request to the court by the defense to make a decision on a specific issue before the trial begins. Here's retired prosecutor Anne Flanagan.
If you look at any trial, it is the state that has to put out everything. It's like throwing a party and you're the host or hostess and you have to have everything ready. Well, you might have a guest on the other side who's going to come and say, well, you didn't get ice. You didn't do this. You didn't do that. So all they have to do is whittle away at the state's witnesses and evidence.
It's up to the judge to make a decision on each of these changes. In this episode, we're taking a deep dive into George Wagner's pretrial and how these motions could radically change the outcome of the trial. Two motions, 80 and 81, have been introduced specifically to keep evidence off the table. For a capital murder case like George's, it could mean the difference between life and death.
And as we'll find out, even with their plea deals in place, it could affect whether Jake and Angela reopen themselves to the death penalty. The first motion we'll discuss is 81. Here's journalist Anjanette Levy followed by criminal attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen. They're both speaking with producer Chris Graves.
On January 10th of 2022, the defense for George Wagner filed motion number 81, and it was a motion to suppress audio recordings. And the thing they're taking issue with in this motion is the fact that apparently BCI agents and other law enforcement involved in this case placed listening devices in a truck that was driven by both George Wagner and Jake Wagner.
Before the Wagners were arrested in 2018, hundreds of hours of audio were recorded by Ohio BCI. I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, what on earth could be so damning in these recordings? There may be nothing or there may be something, I don't know. This is all speculation at this point, but there might be something that George incriminated himself on that they're trying to suppress, right?
There would have to be or they wouldn't go to the problem to file a motion. No question about it. Defense counsel wants something with respect to those statements thrown out. We just don't know what it is. So in your mind, George or someone in his cab or on some conversation possibly incriminated the family? Absolutely. Absolutely. They wouldn't be going through all this if that weren't the case.
To obtain the recordings, homicide detectives had to gain physical access to Georgia's truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
I think there's a really big piece to the puzzle here about wiretapping and bugging, and there seems to be some sort of a difference between the two that is now really a big piece of George's defense. Wiretapping and bugging, I think, often get confused, and you see wiretapping and bugging a lot in movies and TV shows, but it's actually a little more nuanced than what you see on the screen.
So how wiretapping works specifically is that you need to get permission from a phone company to tap into the cell transmission tower. And back in the old days, what you would see done in the movies is cops literally clipping wires to the phone line in the basement or something like that. But now it's all done remotely electronically. So in conjunction with the warrant served to the cell phone provider, officials are able to do it from the comfort of their office.
Bugging literally is this transmitter with a microphone that needs to be planted someplace physically in a space where authorities would want to pick up conversations. Which is, by the way, very interesting because they have to go through a very layered process to be able to get permission to bug a vehicle.
Bugging is much more invasive because you're actually able to record private conversations in someone's home or their car. And in this case, they were able to get all types of conversations that George Wagner was having. So law enforcement was apparently able to listen to and remotely record everything that was said in that truck 24/7. I mean, in-person conversations, phone conversations, and even Mr. Wagner talking to himself.
The defense is claiming that the recordings are inadmissible for a number of reasons, many pertaining to the fact that it was George's truck that was bugged. The case of the bugging is slightly complicated as it applies to the Wagners because what the BCI bugged was not George's vehicle. It was the truck that he used for work. So he didn't own this big rigged truck. It was his employer's truck.
And so presumably, the BCI was given permission to access the vehicle from the employer and planted the bug when George was not with the truck. The type of truck George would drive is a typical semi that you see all over the country on the highways.
And so the semi has a sleeper cab in the back, which is where the drivers go to take a rest, relax, sleep for the night. So Ohio BCI agents put the bug in the sleeper cab portion of the semi truck. And this small detail is one of the four things the defense is using to get the motion dismissed. There could be an issue with that because that sleeper cabin on the semi could be analogized to being someone's home.
And, you know, for all intents and purposes, it probably was when Mr. Wagner was on the road. The house is the most constitutionally protected thing that there is. So there might be a potential problem there with the authorization itself. Because the truck was both not owned by George and served as his sleeping quarters, the defense may argue it is similar to bugging a hotel room.
We also know that Jake was in the truck as well. At some point, the two brothers were alone for hours or even days on the road in what they assumed was a completely private setting.
That really does speak to the question of assumed privacy and conversations that may have happened between Jake and George, allegedly. Those conversations are probably very relevant for this trial. So the fact that the defense wants to question that speaks more to what they're potentially hiding. Here's Judge Pat Dinkalocker.
— This is interesting because we don't get bugging cases, wiretapping cases much. When I looked through this, I thought to myself, if they had an expectation of privacy, the two of them, OK, and the state illegally violated that, then this is the proper motion that the judge could grant and say that they're not allowed to bring those audio recordings into evidence. — Here's Judge Sylvia Hendon, who works as a visiting judge out of the Ohio Supreme Court.
It's a violation of the Sixth Amendment. We see that all the time. You have an expectation of privacy. Does your expectation of privacy increase if you're in a sleeper cab truck versus a regular cab truck? I don't know the answer to that. But again, speaking from an appellate perspective, I can tell you that whichever way Judge Deering goes on this, it's going to be an issue, I believe, in the event of an appeal.
I would have to believe that that motion to suppress is going to loom large in the Court of Appeals in the event of a guilty finding. I will be very interested to see his ruling. If I'm employed by somebody, even if I'm sleeping there, I wouldn't think that I walk into a building or an entity owned by somebody else that's employing me. I wouldn't think that I would have an expectation of privacy. Here's former BCI homicide investigator Seth Hagaman testifying in court.
He oversaw the creation of the warrants for the Wagner case. So when you're installing devices, you need a search warrant in the county where you're going to install the device. Correct. And specifically, you're talking about the search warrant that was installed in the R&L truck. Correct. That both the defendant, George Wagner, and his brother, Jake Wagner, drove in tandem. Correct.
To get approval to bug or wiretap, investigators must adhere to an even stricter protocol than a standard search warrant. They must also produce what's called an interception warrant.
Interception warrants are inherently scrutinized to a greater degree because of the privacy issues that they raise. And there's very specific statutory requirements of other things in addition to just the normal probable cause of a search warrant that needs to be addressed. Among those is not only do I have to show there's probable cause that a crime was committed, you have to show that there is probable cause that a specific person or persons committed that crime.
you actually have to show that you've exhausted other methods of investigation that were less intrusive prior to applying for that. And so those are the different steps that make it more complicated and a much more difficult process to obtain. Hagaman and Ohio BCI felt that after months of the investigation, they had grounds to successfully lobby for an interception warrant. During the investigation, Inspector Hagaman put together a lengthy report and submitted it for approval of an interception warrant to bug the Wagner's truck.
The warrant was approved, giving homicide a period of 30 days to monitor the truck once the bug was installed. The state played it 100% by the book. But the prosecution's case is complicated by the fact that Ohio BCI coordinated the bugging of George's truck with his employer. And the defense has raised this as a second point of contention in their motion. Here again, reporter Anjanette Levy, followed by attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.
The defense is saying this basically violated George's rights because the owner of the truck allowed it to happen. And he had an expectation of privacy, but I'm not really sure you have an expectation of privacy in a truck that your employer owns.
There is a third complicating issue for the prosecution.
Much of the audio was recorded across state lines.
Would any statement that is given outside of the state of Ohio be valid under that warrant? Now, I don't have the warrant, so I don't know for sure, but I think that's going to be questioned as well. Usually warrants are just limited to the geographical jurisdiction, and in this case, it'd be Pike County and or the state of Ohio. But let's just say he said something incriminating in Tennessee. I don't know. I mean, there may be problems with that, too.
If it was a federal warrant, then they'd be okay. But a state warrant, they might have some issues with that. I've not researched it. I've never encountered it ever as an attorney, law student, whatever. But it's an issue that if I were defense counsel, I'd be pursuing it.
— The defense also claims that the investigators on the case tried to lead the Wagner brothers into incriminating themselves. — They talk about in the motion that they were trying to stimulate incriminating conversation by initiating the contact, and that could be problematic for the government too. I mean, if a statement is freely and voluntarily given, then there's no problem with it. But if the government induces someone
to make a statement, that could be problematic. What I also thought was very interesting about this was the fact that police would actually put things out on social media in hopes that one of the Wagners, or specifically Angela Wagner, accused Killer Mom, that she would see these posts and that would maybe stir up conversation that they would then have with each other. And then those conversations would be bugged.
This is actually called tickling the wire. And tickling the wire means that the feds have wiretaps in place and are placing stories and then waiting for revealing conversations to happen because of said stories. And that's the question specifically. Is that baiting or is that just good process?
Angela Wagner's mother, Rita Jo Newcomb, was sent a court order to have these conversations where she would goad the boys into having further conversations with their mother and father about the crimes. Remember, when she got arrested, her mother also got arrested. That's Rita Newcomb. So here is Rita trying to get herself also out of this mess that she was dragged into because she was accused of all this forgery with the original custody documents.
Now she's basically working with BCI to start conversations with the Wagner boys to hopefully get them to say something incriminating. And that just shows the dissension between, you know, mother-daughter. That's her grandsons. And that's her daughter and her son-in-law. Rita Newcomb was charged with forgery, perjury, and obstructing justice. In 2019, Newcomb reached a plea deal and those charges were dropped.
She ultimately pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge of obstructing official business. It must have been probably a hard pill to swallow. We know she didn't have much choice because it was a court order. But at this point, we do know a little bit of her frame of mind, according to her son, Chris Newcomb, that she felt really betrayed by Angela. She has her son and other grandchildren to look out for. And so if Angela and her sect of the family are not going to look out for her, why is she going to look out for them?
I mean, that must have been the most brutal decision to have to make. Do you actually turn against your own daughter and your grandsons and your son-in-law? And by the way, it must have worked and got them talking because the defense is adamant that they do not want these conversations to be a part of any of this moving forward. So you could imagine those conversations must be very telling. During testimony, Seth Hagerman confirmed the success of this approach in the past.
How many other interception warrants would you say that you've been a part of where it has been related to a cold case homicide? Four or five. And in those situations, did you use this same method as far as tickling the wire or provocative acts or whatever your terminology is for that?
Yes, in every single one, even the ones that had some level of current crime happening. We would use some level of tickling the wire just to try to get conversation about those past events. Okay. And have you been met with success in those efforts? There was success in all of them. In most cases, we've developed information that's led to either ongoing prosecutions or guilty pleas or verdicts. And in another case, I've actually exonerated someone using that method.
Here again is attorney Mike Allen. It's just a really fine line as far as inducement. The government has some flexibility, but still, I mean, they can't illicitly for an illicit purpose kind of goad them into making a comment. Every case rises and falls on its own set of facts. And I know that's not really a helpful answer, but it's an accurate answer.
Besides investigators and the Wagners themselves, no one but the prosecution and defense know what is on those tapes. If the guy makes some incriminating statements and they are validly taken, that's a problem. I mean, it's a problem for the defense because they're stuck with him. If you were in the prosecution's seat and you saw this come down, what are you thinking?
Well, as the prosecution, I mean, I would fight as hard as I could, obviously, to make sure the judge keeps it in. But again, I'm just assuming that they've got a lot of other evidence as well. But the defense attorney's doing his job here. I mean, he wants to whittle away at state's evidence as much as he can. And, you know, this is all a part of it. It's just so hard to say how much it would damage the state's case when we don't know what other cards they're holding.
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind.
Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down. From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal.
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Oh my God.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to.
Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?
Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.
Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another motion, Motion 80, has been put forth by the defense to block Jake and Angela's testimony. It's another possible game-changer.
As part of his plea deal, Jake makes many claims that seemingly exonerate George of the worst aspects of this grisly massacre.
Here again, Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor Anne Flanagan. This is from Jake's property. Jake has stated clearly that George did not shoot anyone, did not fire a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake and Billy on the murder spree, and only went, and it's the last second, to protect Jake from Billy, who was thought he might kill Jake at the end of the series of aggravated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness.
You never really see motions to suppress the testimony of someone else. So they have still the capability of trying to show some kind of dishonesty on Jake's part or that he's not testifying truthfully. But what they're asking the court to do is to take this away, to suppress their statements before the jury ever gets to hear it.
Grounds to suppress are usually based on misconduct of officers. Was there coercive activity on the part of officers? And they weren't coerced, clearly, Angela and Jake. For one thing, the defense attorneys here don't represent Angela or Jake, so they don't have standing evidence.
to suppress their statements because they're representing George. They can move to suppress his statements, but not Jake's and Angela's. So this is somewhat novel. They're trying to suppress it, not because of any coercive activity, but because he might be motivated to lie under oath because he wants to get his agreement enforced.
So are proffers done under oath? They can be. They don't have to be. I don't know how they did it here. I know I have done that on occasion when I have a co-defendant or someone that's going to cooperate.
I have tried to get it under oath in case they don't testify in accordance with it. I can bring that up and cross-examine them. Look, you gave a sworn statement before you were under oath. You said it was the truth. Now you're saying this. So I'm assuming they may have done that, but it's not required. It's possible Jake could have lied to get out of the death penalty or said what he had to say to save his brother.
You're obviously putting some trust and some faith in his statement. You're putting somebody up there to testify to this when you may not be exactly sure that he's telling the whole truth.
And that happens sometimes in cases where somebody, they're telling you the truth, but maybe not the whole truth. Like you're not getting the whole story, the entire story, but you're basically getting what happened, but not every little detail. Because maybe Jake was trying to protect his brother at some point too. You know, maybe he's thinking, God, I can't take my brother down with me. Not sure why a father would kill his son or why another son would be fearful of that.
It affects even the motivation potentially, is Billy the... The mastermind? Yeah, mastermind and also his motive if he's trying to eliminate witnesses. And certainly makes you think this is not the most functional family. The presumption has been that it was Angela who kind of masterminded everything. And I'm not saying she's not deserving, I don't know here. But we're hard on matriarchs sometimes or mothers.
And did we do that legitimately? It does really kind of make you think, who was calling the shots in this operation? If that's indeed true, that George only went along at the last minute to protect his brother from their father, what was going on there? What is Billy capable of? I mean, I guess George, in this scenario, was ready to die for his brother protecting him. That would be one hell of a car ride, wouldn't it? Yeah.
Do you know what kind of dad he was? How was he with Jake and George? Chris Newcomb, who we've heard from before, is Angelo Wagner's half-brother.
Despite Billy's nature, Angela stood by his side.
Some see a parallel with Angela's dad, Eddie "Pug" Carter. I knew him as "Pug" Carter. He always wore this like metal brace and he walked with a limp. What I heard from my dad was that he would climb electric poles and steal copper or something off the poles. And he got electrocuted and it affected his walking. It could be that Angela was fiercely loyal to Billy because he reminded her of her father.
If you are a group of people
and you are going to go do something. If one person holds back and says, "No, I'm not gonna do this," it may not happen. If two do, certainly it may not happen. But when you have these people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics, they're just as much a part of all that ended up happening.
is the person who actually pulled the trigger. And I know that, and I think jurors know that, and people know that, but will they really hold them accountable?
It's a little harder to understand how the police are going to work into the trial. Actually, presiding over four separate cases is a lot easier than presiding over four people together. Because in a separate case, you're focused on that particular defendant. Now, you're still going to have to keep things straight. You're going to have to know when to exclude evidence. There's a lot of rules about confessions of co-defendants that you're going to have to follow.
But to try to balance a case with four defendants, because right away you've got eight lawyers if you're talking about a capital murder case. So you've got a minimum of eight lawyers, four defendants, and Lord only knows how many witnesses. Let's stop here for another break.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.
From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Come on.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him going to sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat.
It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?
Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Without the audio from George's truck, the jury will not get to hear what the detectives heard in private conversations between the brothers. And if the defense's motions are successful, Jake and Angela's testimony will be off the table as well.
Would you be concerned if it's a live witness and Angela steps on the stand and she's facing her oldest son, testifying against him, is there worry that that might cause her not to? Yeah, any witness who's somewhat involved with the defense, even though they've said they're testifying and they've given good information in the past, you have to wonder what's the physical, visceral effect, emotional effect of sitting in front of that person.
Will they freeze? Will they talk? Will they tell us what they've told us before? This brings us to the final issue the defense and prosecution must navigate: how Jake and Angela's plea deal relates to these motions, and what that means for the future of all four Wagners. As of now, the death penalty is still on the table for George Wagner. And Jake and Angela's deal to avoid death row is not guaranteed.
It's contingent upon their testimony being what the court calls "to the satisfaction of the prosecution." We look at this family and their story keeps changing. And I am curious to know what the, air quote, "satisfaction of the prosecution" even means.
Does that mean that if Jake and Angela, who we know have taken plea agreements, if they don't deliver the goods, then what? Is their death sentence put back on the table? Are all of their death sentences put back on the table? Who decides the satisfaction piece? It would be the prosecution. And so basically under the terms of their deal, they probably agreed to the version of events of
that night and the month that led up to the crime. And so if once they're on the stand under oath and they don't stick to the script, for lack of a better term, then the whole deal would be off and death penalty would be back on the table for the entire family.
George is sticking to his not guilty plea, which would imply that he's not involved in this at all. And so Jake and Angela's testimony, which we can assume is going to say something along the lines of, well, while George might not have pulled the trigger, he certainly knew about the murders and might have been there the night of the murders and helped cover the murders up. And so that testimony is going to be pretty damning for his not guilty plea.
It does also speak to the fact that there are so many endings that could still be. You know, we see plea deals and you think that's the end of the road for Jake Wagner. But now that's not so. There's a big performance ahead. And he and now his mother, who he's essentially working with and against at the same time, how this plays out in court with George and then later Billy, dad,
Every piece of it affects the other person. So the totality of it is massive. And this whole case from the beginning has been utterly unpredictable. And so to assume when Billy and George's trials start that we know what's going to happen and we know what Jake and Angela are going to say when they're on the stand, I think would be naive. I think what we can assume is that we don't really know the ending yet.
We've been told several theories, even just this season alone, that speak to a larger plot happening behind the scenes and that it's possible that the Wagners are lying. Jake may have a hand in deciding whether he and his brother live or die. It's also possible the defense and prosecution don't know the whole story that Angela and Jake have to tell.
There's a tenseness about it that isn't there with other cases. We don't know what other evidence exists. You know, we just don't know, to be honest with you. It all depends on what their story is on that day in a courtroom face-to-face with a son, with a brother, and a jury of their peers. ♪
I mean, with whisperings of cartel involvement and other rumors still lingering in Pike County, if given the opportunity to testify, could Jake and Angela Wagner choose to blow this whole thing up? Or are they being put up to it behind bars?
We have heard many rumors regarding the cartel and that there's a larger story happening here. And that the Rodin's murder was not just merely over custody, but that there's larger issues at play with some different dealings between the families. And that's dangerous stuff. And maybe it's possible that the Wagners are safest behind bars. More on that next time.
If you're enjoying The Piked Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy in Love. New episodes air every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Piked Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Astin. Audio mixing by Ken Novak.
The Pikedon Massacre is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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