Change of Venue 26:35

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It was such a heart-wrenching murder that he can't get a fair trial in that community. In the interest of justice, I don't think the families want to wait. I don't think justice wants to wait. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 2, Episode 8, Change of Venue. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo.

There have been more than a dozen pretrial hearings in the state of Idaho versus Brian Koburger. The trial had an original start date of October 2023, but nearly a year later, many issues still remain to be decided, including determining if Ladau County still has a viable jury pool.

New court filings reveal the defense thinks that, quote, a fair and impartial jury cannot be found in Latah County. They add that enlarging the jury pool will not do anything to overcome that pervasive prejudicial publicity because Latah County does not have a large enough population center to avoid the bias in the community. Setting a trial date and battling over change of venue are inextricably intertwined. We spoke with many experts to understand the intricacies of the pretrial hearings.

Stephanie asked journalist Connor Powell what he thought about the change of venue request on the defense's part. This is where the judge and the defense prosecution are going to essentially battle over change of venue.

which he wants to see it moved out of Moscow, Idaho, because their argument is that he can't get a fair trial there. It was such a dramatic and just really heart-wrenching murder that he can't get a fair trial in that community. And the judge might see it that way. They might not. That's sort of up for discussion. The other issue is where the trial should happen and when. And it's a small town, right?

where this murder took place and where the trial is likely to take place is a small community. There's a school right across the street from the courthouse. And one of the arguments for pushing this back and delaying this is to do it during the summer so that

the media onslaught that's gonna happen with this trial doesn't impact the local community, particularly the students, the kids of that community. - And also in the university. So that seemed like a pretty smart plan that was initially going to be this summer. We were thinking July, August of 2024. Now that it's pushing so far, look, I get it. He's gonna have to have a trial on the moon to escape people knowing who he is. This is not only national news, it's become world news.

And changing of the venue sort of seems like that might just be a delay process and would really slow things down. Or if they change the venue so that it's not one that's directly across the street from a high school, it sort of opens up the calendar potentially for them. I spoke with Law and Crime's true crime reporter, Anjanette Levy, who spent a lot of time in Moscow, Idaho, over the past two years.

What you have to understand is in Moscow, that is a town of 25,000. It's a college town. And when I was there, the wound that this crime created in that community, the pain, the grief really struck people and stunned them. When I went to businesses trying to talk to people about it, they

They felt like they were personally wounded by this. It just took such a toll that the influx of media and this is like a place that should be happy and idyllic. And, you know, this was a small community that took this personally. And you could tell that in speaking to people there, they were doing their best to go about life.

every day and running their businesses and getting their kids off to school. But this was a horror that unfolded in that town. And so it was a huge deal when an arrest was made.

And people may or may not have formed really inflexible, if you would, opinions about that. You know, they may have decided this happened and somebody's got to pay for it. I'm not saying that's exactly what happened, but it's possible. So I could see how...

how moving it might probably just be the best thing to do. And I'm not talking a couple of towns over. I mean, maybe a few counties over. Who knows where they would move it? But I know that Ann Taylor has suggested Ada County, which is Boise. It's a bigger population center. It has a more modern courthouse. Latah County, it's a very small courthouse. So for clarity, you mentioned Ann Taylor. And to remind listeners, Ms. Taylor is Brian Koberger's defense attorney.

Anjanette, are you able to describe the courthouse and specifically its proximity to the school? I know that's been a major issue. The courthouse is directly across the street from Moscow High School, directly across the street. I mean, you can't get any closer than that. And the courthouse is older. It's a small facility. It's connected to the sheriff's office. You know, the county's a county of 40,000 people. That's not very big.

So, you know, you've got the cute little downtown area, the courthouse kind of up the hill from there and the sheriff's office and the courthouse. It's a building that kind of isn't an L shape. And then the high school is right across the street. So it's very quaint. It's very cute. It's a small town. And Taylor has said that summer 2025 may be too soon.

Then are we looking at summer 2026 in order to not interfere with high school? And college. And they made it sound like, I mean, the prosecution thinks this is going to be a six-week trial. She thought it would be much longer.

I think 15 week was her projection, if I remember correctly. So it's a pretty big disparity. I would have to know more about what the prosecution's thought process is on their case. But six weeks for a case like this total, especially if you if you even get to the mitigation phase. Wow. That's ambitious.

Obviously, the defense is going to fight, it sounds like. They're going to put up a fight. They're going to be calling experts. I'm sure they'll do their best to cross-examine witnesses and do their best to discredit witnesses through cross-examination, but

Who knows what they have planned? She's arguing for a change of venue. And you can't tell me that somebody like me, I'm pouring over this stuff every time something is filed because that's my job and I'm interested in it. And I need to be able to convey stuff accurately to the public. But I don't think maybe your average juror is sitting there monitoring the Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest website and

waiting to look at this. And if they move the trial,

You know, she's got a jury expert that's going to come in and say that Laytuck County is biased and they can't have the trial there. Well, if you're going to move it somewhere, then you're going to have a bigger jury pool, potentially a larger pool of people from which to choose. And the longer this gets drawn out, the more memories will fade. But even the change of venue. And I mean, it's that's obviously defense attorney Taylor is trying really hard to get that changed. But

What even is the difference of moving a couple of towns over in terms of people knowing or not knowing about this case that is in the news all the time? Normal people are busy. Cell phones have changed everything, of course, but they're not always on their phones looking at every little development in a case. Data analyst Body Movin is a super sleuth who you may know from Netflix's Don't Have With Cats. She has some additional thoughts on the merit of a potential change of venue.

I do think that they're going to move it though. I really do. And I think it just makes sense more logistically than anything else. The tiny itty bitty little town, you know, the media is going to be all over this. People are going to be traveling to try to attend this trial. Logistically, I don't know that the city or town of Moscow can handle all the people. And we've been, Courtney, we follow trials and this is what we do, right?

I just don't think in the interest of justice, I don't think the families want to wait. I don't think justice wants to wait. I do think it should move, not necessarily because of the jury pool, just for logistical reasons. It's just I just don't think it's going to be a good thing. What you just said is common sense, but it somehow had not occurred to me.

Another year for all those families to wait, right? To find out what happened to their children. And live in limbo. Especially in capital cases, there's so many pre-hearing motions and things that have to be done. And while preparing the defense and preparing the prosecution. I mean, I think media has taken a unique turn, especially with true crime reporting, right?

you have people who are independent i'm using quotes independent journalists right now who are you know their living is on youtube and social media and they were you know they make little press passes for themselves and whatnot and they harass people to get information and i just can't imagine this trial happening while kids are at school on recess playing soccer in the field that's facing the court

and possibly being on a YouTube channel. Do you know what I mean? I would go crazy. And I think you're right that parents would go crazy. Of course, we all want justice. I mean, everybody wants justice. But imagine living in that town and you have a 13-year-old child who has to go to school and wade through all the reporters to get there. I'm not saying that would happen, but it could. And I don't think...

the community of Moscow would like that. Now, I do think that the people of Moscow do want justice served by them, by their community, because this happened in their community and they want to be the ones to see it through. Right. I think there are good, hardworking Americans that believe in the system and want to see things through. I absolutely believe that. I just don't know if they're going to be able to be able to get that done in time for school to be out of session.

And that includes the university too, because the town is full. It's full while the kids are in school. I think it's going to have to move. Justice moves so slowly. I just don't believe they're going to be ready in time. I just don't. I am not a victim's family or, you know, part of the community of Moscow. So it's easy for me to say the judges should just move it and get it over with and move on and get to the issues at hand. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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Thank you.

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I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.

In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.

But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today, and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. To get a better understanding of the judicial practices that come into play with potential change of venue, I spoke with Kirk Nermy, legal analyst and former defense attorney for Casey Anthony.

Knowing that Koberger's defense attorney, Ann Taylor, wants to change a venue, I asked if the judge alone makes the final decision. Well, ultimately, there's just kind of a default assessment that the jurisdiction of the court of a particular county, I believe in this case is Latah County, is that is the court that assesses and judge and tries all crimes that are committed in that county.

So that is the general presumption, if you will. A defense can look to change venue if they feel as if to another jurisdiction, another county, district, what have you, however the state is set up within the boundaries of that state. And what they have to do in order to motivate that to happen is

is they have to assert facts to substantiate the idea that their client cannot get a fair trial in the county or district or what have you in the court that they are presently in front of. I'm not asking you for statistics, but I guess how rare is it to have the trial changed out of the county in which the crime was committed?

Well, I'm glad you didn't ask for statistics because I couldn't give you any, but I will say it's rare, but much more common in a high profile case. Because when a case gets so much attention in an area, and we're really talking about media saturation, be that traditional media or social media, and how many people have prejudged the case in

in a particular area. For example, small counties have a smaller population of jury pool to draw from. Maybe there's a higher percentage of people in that county that already know about the case, that sort of thing. So that

becomes the defense's job to demonstrate that bias that would violate the Sixth Amendment, and it becomes incumbent on the judge to make the decision. The prosecutor, in some cases, might relent. They might say, yeah, this is not going to be a county where you can get a fair trial. But ultimately, that decision lies with the judge.

After speaking with Kirk, I got curious if there were any statistics on change of venue and found a survey put out by the University of San Diego. The survey analyzed murder trials from 2000 to 2020 across all 50 states. There were many mitigating factors, but the success rate of change of venue was just 23.5%. Here, Steven Greenberg, attorney and former prosecutor, elaborates on the potential outcomes for the change of venue in this case.

The norm is they're not going to get a change of venue. And you can always get a jury. By the way, people, sometimes they lie because they want to sit on the jury. You know, we had a case involving a very important political figure, all headlines. Did you ever read anything about it? No. Did you see anything on TV? Of course they did. But you can always get a jury. And if I were the judge, I would do everything in my power to keep it from happening. Any judge worth his or her salt wouldn't let it happen.

Worst case, they'll bring in jurors from another area. They can always do that. Oh, I didn't know that. And by the way, it's not unheard of to go to a different venue and bring in a jury pool from a neighboring area. You know, it's always subtle. They just do subtle things. There's little things that happen during a trial that can be very harmful or helpful.

This judge is not going to be helpful to his defense, not at all. And he's going to keep the case. I understand how unlikely you think it is for it to move. But if a trial moves, does the judge move with it? Is that possible or no?

Yes. Any one of a number of things could happen. First, the whole thing could be denied because they have enough to get another pool. The other thing they can do is the judge stays where the judge is and they bring in jurors from a different place, which is what I indicated earlier. The other thing is for the judge himself or herself to move to a different venue and pick a jury there. Any one of those three are possible.

Inside Editions, Chris Spargo shared his thoughts on security and monetary issues involved with the trial's ultimate location. So you talked about people in the area kind of feeling frustration about how long this trial will be. Do you know any other details about that? Or can you speak to that? I heard there are concerns, which makes sense. I mean, obviously, that's another, again, that's another cost to if kids are in school when that trial is going on, that's another level of security you're gonna have to get to make sure you know, there's no sort of

overlap and i think that's not something i really want to expose the kids to you know sort of it's a very very very grim grim trial even the details so i don't think you know you want kids knowing about that and i mean i think there's a general media attention you know no one wants their child to be around this sort of media attention that's going on with this trial like i can't imagine being a parent knowing that you know 80 news trucks are outside my kids school while they're you know that's just that's just not a way for a kid to live and that's not something you want for your child so

I think that's sort of an understandable thing if they want to push it. But again, push it or not, that's probably gonna be another huge security cost for them. Have you been to the courthouse? I have not. My colleague has been to the courthouse. I am not much of a traveler. It's nothing grand. And it's, which is kind of wild when you think about it because of the size of the trial. It also makes it a big problem though, because of the amount of power the media company is using and everything. I mean, it's really a drain, you know, this little courthouse being surrounded by all these bands and all these reporters and everything. It's

It's kind of chaotic when it's these hearings. And these hearings are not even major hearings right now, so to speak, compared to when the actual trial starts. And even then, I mean, my colleague said it was wild how you barely get in. There's a million people around. It's really chaos.

Do you have an opinion on if the trial either should move and or if the judge will decide to move it? I wish the trial were moved for the sake of the residents. I think that they've done enough. I think they've bared the burden of just get it out of there for those poor people. Like, I mean, I don't care. I don't really care about the jury so much. I know that's not really the legal precedent or how they decide, but it would just be nice if it wasn't there for them. Like, I just would feel so nice for them if people just got out and did it somewhere else.

As of the date of this recording, June 27th, 2024, a decision on change of venue has not been decided.

There was a pretrial hearing today where it was speculated the decision may come down, but that is not the case. Here's Stephanie.

As the debate over the venue takes place, we found it interesting that Koberger is housed literally below the courthouse in the basement. That's where the county jail is, and he's been there since January 4th, 2023. The jail itself is about 2,000 square feet and houses approximately 17 inmates at any time. So for comparison, according to U.S. census data, the average newly built house in the U.S. measures approximately 2,300 square feet. So

So the average newly built house is actually bigger than where Koberger and his fellow inmates are being housed at this time. News Nation did a really good job breaking down a little bit of his life behind bars. We know that there are about three guards working at any one time. And when Koberger goes out for exercise for one hour a day, he's always with guards.

There's been a lot made about him receiving special treatment, specifically the fact that he has vegan meals or new suits and a computer and his own television. According to reports, his meals are primarily rice and beans and vegetables.

He has a computer or at least access to one, just like any other inmate. He can use a thumb drive to look at documents related to his case, make notes, and then get those back to his attorney. That's pretty status quo. As for him having his own television, that's because he's not in the general population and it's been noted that the TV is actually outside of his cell so he can watch it between the bars.

And according to other inmates who can sometimes hear what he's listening to or watching, he's apparently very interested in the coverage of his own case. Something else interesting about his routine is that he apparently attends mass at the jail library. That's the only time he's actually allowed to be with fellow inmates. And he speaks to a priest in a Daily Mail exclusive. Pastor Mike Hall, who heads up the special group that sends ministers into jails, is quoted as saying,

We don't tell folks that we will relieve them of their responsibility of their crimes." But he does speak to somebody one-on-one occasionally. Outlets have reported that he's been a model prisoner, even though he sometimes gets taunted by other inmates while he's walking by. And one other curious thing, Brian Koberger is apparently getting a lot of attention from women. There are apparently cohorts of women who are reaching out to him because they have romantic interest in him.

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I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.

But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today, and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Following is a quick conversation that happened between Stephanie, journalist Connor Powell, and Body Movin'. This short chat sent us pretty far down the path on this topic.

One of the topics that came up was this idea of people who fall in love or have obsessions with criminals who are in prison, particularly ones who have been accused of murder. And there was a name, the phrase that was thrown out was hybristophilia, which is this idea of sexual attraction in response to somebody who's committed a heinous crime.

It just really makes you wonder the why, right? This seems to me like there has to be some sort of unhealed trauma to never want your partner to come home at night is kind of a tell about something probably larger. I was amazed as I was doing some digging today, Body, that

But there are multiple social media sites dedicated to the fascination and with people professing their love of Brian Koberger. Is that something you've come across before in criminal data research you've done before? Yes. I have extensive knowledge on this disorder. Is that extensive personal knowledge or just extensive knowledge? Personal. Okay. Personal knowledge.

So as you all know, I was in that Netflix documentary, Don't F with Cats, and the subject was a murder that happened. You know, Luca Mignotta was the murderer.

And I was in the documentary talking about it and how he was caught and I was after him and, you know, all this. Right. Well, after the documentary aired, literally the first hundred and fifty emails I got were all from the same person telling me what a scumbag I was because they're in love with Luca. And.

And to this day, you know, this documentary aired in 2019, the end of 2019. So it's been four years, right? To this day, I still get hate mail from people who are obsessed with Luca Mignotta and how dare I, and it's, it's absolutely wild.

It gives me the creeps. Is that because they don't think that he did it in that they just feel like he's been wrongfully accused and he's just cute man behind bars? It's a mix. It's a mix of people that are trying to be like edge Lords. There's many reasons people have this disorder, right? It's there's low self-esteem issues. People believe they can change him.

Others just see it like a little boy that the killer once was and he wasn't protected and he needs to be nurtured.

There's many different reasons. Not many people think he's innocent. I was going to say part of the arousal, right? Part of the attraction is that he did do it, right? Like that's kind of what they get off on. Yeah. Part of it is this is a really dangerous person. And if I can get them to love me, I'm one of the people he would never hurt or, you know, I'm protected, right?

There's many different reasons that people have this. And I think that the people that have this disorder think that, oh, well, if I love him, he's not going to be a danger. But there's like a whole subreddit dedicated to the love. Yeah, there's sort of two groups on social media of people who are defending Koberger saying he didn't do it. And then there's this other little subgroup that you see, which is like,

They sort of acknowledge or maybe they don't fully acknowledge, but they are turned on by what he did. And you're right. It goes into that. He would never do it to me and I can change him.

Yeah, I mean, the people who think he's innocent are not in this group of, they call themselves bribe rise. They're not in this group of bribe rise. They like Photoshop his images into pictures. They have literal alters with his mug shots and, you know, with the turtle suit on. They make like fan cans on Twitter of him, like entering court. And it's like in slow motion with like music playing. And a lot of it too, I think is the edgelord mentality, right?

I'm going to piss off everyone I know because I am a troll. You know, a lot of it is trolling. They want a reaction. They want the attention. They want people to be absolutely outraged by their behavior. It's an internet troll. But they do exist and it is an actual disorder. There's many papers written on it. I had to go study this because I was getting a lot of like threats, you know, literal threats against my own life.

But if you look at history, look at how many women were fascinated with Ted Bundy. And even to this day, still are. And the bribe rights compare Brian Koberger to Ted Bundy. It's absolutely wild. More on that next time.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leidegger, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twaugh.

Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Brutal summer heat. It's no fun for humans or pets.

But it's even worse for your lawn. Fortunately, Virginia Green has you covered with our Dog Days of Summer Savings Bundle. Just sign up for a new lawn program and you'll save 20% on aeration and seeding. It's the easy way to rescue your fescue and set your lawn up for success. The Dog Days of Summer Savings Bundle. Sign up now at virginiagreen.com.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.