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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.
It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Dope.
Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.
Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am so, so excited to have with me today, Gabby Windy. Gabby!
Gabby is a TV personality from some of your and your grandmother's favorite reality TV shows. We're talking The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, and Dancing with the Stars. She is now the host of a podcast called Long-Winded, where she runs her mouth on her favorite topics like Taylor Swift and the hopeful downfall of the patriarchy. Gabby, welcome. Welcome.
Oh my God, thank you so much for having me. Do you want to start me off with the classic first question and tell me what your relationship to gossip is? Yes, I've literally been thinking about this for the last year. I'm just going to go no holds bar. I love gossip. I
I think it's a way to bond. I think it's fun. I think it's funny. But I'm not gossiping to try and ruin people's lives. It's like there's a housewife style of gossip where they're actually making shit up and wanting to ruin people's reputation. But my style of gossip is just like,
If like somebody else is letting their life hang out so messy, I'm obviously going to tell people about it because they're not even specific with who knows. You know? So it's like whatever it could have came from the horse's mouth, them. But like I'm basically the horse too. But I will say in the same breath, which people aren't going to believe me now. Yeah.
And that's okay. But as a nurse, it's like a career filled with mostly women. It's like we love to gossip and things like that. But I had friends who would come back to me time after time and be like, I know I can trust you because it doesn't get around the unit.
It's like, Oh, I do have loyalties to people that I really care about. Like I can take it to the gray. Yeah. Mostly I gossip about myself too. I'm like, it's like some crazy shit has happened. Like I will tell everyone it's like a party trick. Yeah.
I'm like, you'll never guess who said what to me in like 2020 and like show text messages and all the receipts. Oh my God. But I know because I love to get that reaction. Yes. Yeah. I love that you're coming in with like receipts, right? That you're like, I'm here to tell you a story and also I have six screenshots and an Instagram to show you. Yeah. No, literally. And like ring camera footage. Ring camera footage. Yes.
Yes. Like it goes deep. So it's like, I know I can back it up like in a court of law if I needed to, which is like this other person confronting me is the court. This is like such a specific question. Like I, you don't have to have an answer to this, but do you keep it like in a folder on your phone? Like how do you have it like ready to go? Yeah. The hidden folder. Yeah. Yeah.
There's all your secrets in there. Yeah. I know exactly where to go. That and all my nudes and one. Yeah. It's really funny to think about like hacking into someone's hidden folder and it being like, okay, nudes, but what are all these text message screenshots? Like why are these in here? Yeah. What are all these emails? Yeah. That's really silly. Yeah.
Has coming out as queer changed the way you gossip at all? Yeah, it's gotten better. Oh, interesting. The lesbian community, I feel like, is so tight-knit and so enmeshed that it's like –
this person is now dating this person, but it goes back and they were dating my ex and this is what happened. And like this one always cheats or this person is like having conversations with their husband that they've been with for 18 years about exploring their sexuality with a woman. Like it just gets so deep. And then there's like lesbian line dancing. Oh, lesbian line dancing.
line dancing I'm flying to LA this is like I'm like I'll be right there literally come ASAP it like converts people apparently they like go once and then have a queer awakening I don't go all the time but like people go and then you'll see like I I remember when I was still kind of in the closet like people would recognize me at lesbian line dancing and they'd be like we love to see you here but like what the fuck is going on yeah what are you doing here
Right. Yeah. So you'll see people like that. And like, you've just kind of like, whatever, meet people, like kind of find out who's dating who. So they all show up at line dancing. It's a good place to gossip. If you like to gossip, be a lesbian.
Incredible. Thank you. I love this advice. As a Texan, I love that you're like reclaiming line dancing and making it something fun. Like truly, I will be right there. I heard that you brought a gossip story to share with me. Is that true? Yes. Can I have it?
Oh, my God. Yeah. And dying to let you have it. I'm so excited. Now that I know that you're like a receipts girly, you have all this stuff. I'm like, gimme. Oh, my God. Like, I'm hungry. Please, sir. So, yeah.
My girlfriend obviously is a comedian. So, and she's like, you know, pretty connected and stuff and whatever, but she gets a phone call from her friend. Well, her friend is like, I have something to tell you, make sure Gabby's in the room. So I'm like, I know literally I'm like, what is going on? And, um, her friend is another comedian and they were like in New York at an industry event. Totally. And like, um,
So there's a pop star in the story. Yeah. So like this pop star has an assistant. Okay. This is just like a good moment to be like assistants know everything. They know everything about you. They know everything about your life. So you should be nice to them. No. Yeah. Literally. Literally.
So the assistant was like talking to my girlfriend's friend and she's like, I have something to show you. And right. Obviously the friend is like foaming at the mouth. Like, of course I'm on my way. And so they go like wherever to, you know, the pop stars kind of like room, like backstage thing where the assistant was like kind of organizing and things. And then she's like,
my girlfriend's friend. It's a calendar of my girlfriend. Like on the wall.
It's like a printed out calendar. Oh my God. They like took pictures kind of from Instagram and they like keep all of the pop stars events on it. Oh my God. So it follows them with them everywhere. The assistant got the pop star this calendar for Christmas. So it's like a 2024 calendar of my girlfriend. Like you would do like a fireman or something like that. It's like all different. Yeah.
I'm obsessed with the fact that this isn't something that like Robbie made and produced and sold. This is something that was like individually made for the pop star so that she could hang it in her room and be like, concert on this night. Yeah, meeting with whoever, like this and this and this. I know. I'm like, don't give Robbie ideas because she will try and sell that shit. Yeah.
But I know I'm like, this is actually so crazy. It's like she must just be a big fan of Robbie's comedy. I'm choosing to believe that. Right. Because I'm like, does she have a crush on you? First of all, why did I have to be on the call? Like Robbie didn't even like this, this person.
like pop singers music until I introduced her to it. And I'm like, what is she doing with that? Like, does she have a crush on you? Is she going to try and swoop? But I'm like, this is actually so crazy. I think a good bit you could do is to make a calendar of yourself and send it to her. Actually, that's genius. Just like, here you go. Since you love calendars of us.
Right. Yeah. Maybe use this one. Signing it like, heard you're a fan. Love, Gabby. Yeah. Heard you really like me, not my girlfriend. Here's my pictures. It's all like swimsuits. Yeah. I love that. Thank you for bringing me this gossip. I loved it so much. Yeah.
Do you want to hear the gossip that I have for you? Dying.
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Visit daveskillerbread.com to learn more and look for Dave's Killer Bread in the bread aisle of your local grocery store. Dave's Killer Bread. Bread. Amplified. From the producers of Anything for Selena and the Pulitzer Prize-winning podcast Suave comes My Divo, a podcast about roots. Dive into the legendary life, music, and lasting influence of Latin America's most prolific songwriter and showman, Juan Gabriel El Divo de Juarez.
Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Have you ever had a relationship that's like so fast and so passionate that you like don't see it for what it is?
like every relationship I've been in. Like, I just thought that was a relationship. That's what our story is about today. Our friend of a friend, we're going to call her Emily. Okay. She lives on the East coast. She is a teenager. Okay. And her passion, her dream in life is to be a songwriter. Okay. So she's like dated some boys here and there.
And every boy she dates, she's like, I play guitar better than him. Yeah, fuck yes. Her junior year, she's like, I really want to be a songwriter. Like, this is my dream in life. So I'm going to apply to this like two week singer songwriter program.
And it's like in a small town, like in the mountains, they only pick like 15 girls. Wow. It's two weeks long. But you know, when you're 17, two weeks is like six months. Yeah. Literally being away from your family. My dad would be like, hell no, you're not going. Yeah. So pretty quickly, because she's there and there's only 15 of them and they're all together all the time, they get this kind of like camp brain. Yeah.
Totally. Yes. Can you like explain this? Oh my God. Yeah. Well, it's like the hormones are flying. You know, you're in the bubble. So you can't think of anything else. It's like, I feel like it's literally just like The Bachelor. Any kind of bubble I've been in, you forget that there's anyone else in the world. Yeah.
I think like just by proximity sake, it's like, you know, now with dating and stuff, they say you have too many options with online dating. So when people used to just like literally date their neighbors and like would be happy about it because they wouldn't think about any other option. So this girl is going to be so down bad. I can already feel it. Right.
Literally, yes. She's like bonding with a lot of the girls. Like they're all kind of, you know, gabbing all the time. So happy. But one of the girls in particular, she is extremely down bad for. Oh my God. So she's a lesbian. Is she? Is this a gay story?
Oh, my God. You picked the right girl. I feel profiled. This girl's name is Sasha. Okay. And she has, like, long, dark hair. She drives a stick shift. I drove a stick shift. I was talking about that at dinner last night. They're like, that was your first clue. I'm like, was it? It is.
It's not like it was a cool skill. It is a cool skill. Right? And Emily's like, it's hot that Sasha can do it. It's so hot. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, this girl drives a stick shift, long hair, writes the best songs I've ever heard. Hot, hot, hot. They're spending all this time together at camp. They're like doing things together. And one of the things they do together is they tie dye. Oh, sick. And Emily makes these like tie dyed overalls.
Okay. Are like, you know, the movie Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants where they put on the pants and it just like looks perfect somehow. Totally such a scam. Now looking back, it's like, yeah, literally you look back and you're like, but they're all the same size. So that makes sense, right? Yeah, literally. But Emily holding these tie-dyed overalls up is like, these aren't even that cute. And then she puts them on and she looks incredible in them. Like she's like, this is the best I've ever felt.
Yes. Wow. And Sasha is like, you look so cute in those. And Emily's like, oh my God, do I? Yeah. She's like, you mean it? And Emily starts to wonder, like, how do you know whether something is a close friendship or not?
Or something more. Well, I feel like even having the question is letting you know. It's like if you're wondering if you're gay, you're gay. Yeah. Yes. You know? And this is hard for Emily because she knows that Sasha is gay. And she can kind of tell that Sasha is like waiting for her to make a move.
Do you think she should? I mean, yeah, I think she could have a conversation, be like, you're making me question my sexuality. Like, where should we go from here? But also, I think Sasha should, like, take the reins if she's attracted to Emily and be like, I'm going to make a move. I'm just projecting because that's what happened with Robbie and I's relationship. All gossip is just projecting. Yeah.
Yeah. And I'm really happy with like the way that went because I don't know if I would have ever been like confident enough or like share myself enough in my sexuality to really like make the first move. So unfortunately – and that's why I feel like some lesbians don't like fuck with baby gays. Yeah. Yeah. Quote, unquote, because they don't want the responsibility of like teaching somebody. But thank God that Robbie did. Yeah. So Emily is like –
really scared to do this because she's 17 and it's really scary to be vulnerable in general. And so she waits and waits and waits. And then it's like time to leave the camp. Yeah. And the last conversation she has with Sasha, she's like, I don't really know what this means. I don't really know what it means for me as a person, but like, I think that I really like you and I don't really know what I'm doing. Yeah. Okay. And Sasha's like, I really like you too.
And that's fine. You don't have to know. Like we will figure it out together. Oh my God. I love this. I'm wondering when it's going to take a turn though. I'm really scared. Don't be scared yet. Okay. They go back home because they like are high schoolers. So they have to go back to their houses and they live like a couple of hours apart.
Okay. So they're entering their senior year and Emily is like, I miss camp so much. I miss my teen crush, Sasha. Like she's writing letters to everyone all the time, but she's mostly like talking to Sasha all the time. Wow. In the fall, Sasha's like, can I come visit?
Yeah. Immediately, yes. Emily's like, immediately, yes. Sasha comes to visit and it's like a little awkward at first until like suddenly it is not awkward at all. Oh my God. Okay. So they're really doing it. Are they? I'm wondering what they're telling their parents. Like, oh, this is just a friend. I love that trick. Yeah. It's like you would never be able to have your boyfriend sleep over at your house in high school. Absolutely not. This is just my friend. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, this is like a weekend of firsts. And for Emily, it's like perfect. Like first kiss, first girlfriend, like first romantic stroll under fall leaves. Oh my God. The first time she's like dreamt of a future with someone.
holy shit, yeah, she's really having a queer awakening at 17. I got mine at 32. So she's like way ahead of the ball. I'm so happy for her. The benefit of getting your queer awakening at 32, though, is that you're like not super hormonal. Whereas at 17, you're like extremely hormonal and like crazy. Yeah.
You can't see straight. So when Sasha goes home, this is like the worst thing that's ever happened to Emily. Oh my God. She loses her mind. She loses her mind. She's like, this is a tragedy. It's awful. I'm miserable.
Oh, God, poor thing. And because they're seniors, they're talking about like where they're going to go to college. Naturally. So they pull a little con and they're like, we both want to go to this exclusive songwriter program on the West Coast. So we'll quote unquote go visit the college together. Okay, sneaky. Love it. So they go visit the college. They have a great weekend. They're having so much fun. They both apply. Okay.
They both get in. Holy shit. I'm just hoping they get married, but I know it's not going to be that way. No. Do you go to the same college, same program at the same college as your girlfriend? What do you think about this? Well, it's hard because at that point, I thought I was straight, so it was really easy for me to separate myself from men and go to the same college.
wasn't going to turn out for me later. Like I feel like all my relationships when I was that age, I'd be like, okay, we can do this for six months to a year. But like, fuck no. Like I know I'm not marrying you. So I'm going to dump your ass like ASAP. But it's the old like you hauling like so many hormones. You're young. You think this is your whole world. But I would say like it is –
It's really hard to tell because now being like firm in my queery, in my queerisms, that I would probably be like, yes. But I would hope at that age you'd have some kind of like –
about the future to know that maybe this wasn't the best idea to be attached to a partner while you're also like beginning your career, your education. Yeah. Emily kind of justifies it to herself by being like, this is the best program in the country for what I want to do. And I'm really excited to do that. So like if Sasha is going to be there, that's a bonus. But like, I'm not going for her. I'm going for myself. Yeah, right. Yeah.
We've all said that. Yeah. I'm not following her. No, it's for me, actually. Right. So she and Sasha are still together all spring of their senior year. They pack up their stuff. They drive across the country to this program. But they have also decided something that I have forgotten to tell you, which is that they're going to live in the same dorm room.
Oh my God, they're so messy. They are like typical U-Hauling. It's like you're giving us a bad name. Do you think it's a good idea to live with your girlfriend in a dorm room? Right. Yeah, obviously not. I'm like, that's a leading question and you're right. They move in to this freshman dorm room in the fall. At first, it's great.
They gab all the time. They're having people over. They push their twin beds together. They're like, this is great. Yeah. By fall break, they have separated the beds. Oh, my God. Wow. So literally like just a month or something? A couple months. Yeah. Wow. Okay. They are crying all the time. No. Because the thing about long distance is it can like hide a lot of flaws in your relationship. Right.
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. It's like easier because once you're together, it's like all of this stuff comes out. It's like, no, actually, I don't love the way they chew with their mouth open. I think this is going to put me in my grave. Yes. So Emily is like really conflicted because she's like, I love Sasha so much, but I'm also like we're having these tiffs all the time. I'm kind of exhausted. Like I want things to be better. Right. What do you think she should do?
I have a conversation with Sasha. It's hard because they're 17. Or I guess maybe 18 now. 19 now, yeah. I don't know how much they want to dive into couples therapy. Because the new relationship commitment.
part of me is like you can work through anything yeah but also like at 17 18 it's like maybe this is kind of a sign take a step back like try and live at least independent lives a little bit like co-regulation mutual regulation is something I'm learning about as a 33 year old yeah I feel like you should really live big messy lives be able to learn from it at that age yeah
Emily is like, I think the problem is we're not talking about it enough. Right, right. Yeah. So she's like, let's talk more. Yeah. So she has this conversation with Sasha where she's like, I just really feel like something is off between us. And like, I can't quite like fix it. Right? Like, I feel like we're talking past each other and like things aren't really working. And Sasha's like, I totally agree. I also think things aren't working. I think we should move on. Oh, shit, Sasha. Yeah.
And Emily's like, shit. That is not what I was saying. So what's Sasha hiding? I'm onto her. She's cheating. Oh my God. Emily's like, that's not what I meant. Right? Like I meant that we should like work through it. But now that Sasha has brought it up, she's like, you know, I am like,
19 years old. Maybe I should move on. Right. Yeah. See what else is out there. Can you think of a problem here with their breakup?
Well, they're stuck in this tiny program together and like they're living in the same dorm room. Like they're just so connected. Literally. They're like so connected. They share this room. They share the program. So they're in this like weird situation where they've broken up, but they're still like living together, talking all the time, going to the same classes. Yes. So toxic. Yes. You can't have a clean break like that. Yeah.
So Emily is like, I need a clean break. So she like goes to the people in charge of her dorm and she's like, can I switch rooms? Wow. Good for her. And they're like, no. Damn. There's like no rooms left. I don't understand. I got myself in this terrible situation because I had to U-Haul it and now I need to get out. Yes. The administration is like, I'm sorry, we can't help you. Like there are no rooms open. So we like couldn't move you anywhere. All the rooms are full.
So every day it's super weird and bad. Do you have any ideas for this? Yeah. I mean, I would find maybe like go around and be like, hey, are you willing to switch rooms with me? Like I'm in this really terrible situation. Beg and plead and get on the housing people's nerves as much as you can until they just finally give the fuck in because this actually is emotional life or death. Yeah.
One day, Emily's out on the quad and she's talking to this girl named Harper, who she doesn't know that well. And Harper is like, I hate my roommate. Perfect. She's like, my roommate killed my cactus by overwatering it and won't admit to it. Criminal. She's also one of those girls that's awake all night and has the lights on. Rude. Rude.
Emily's like, she's perfect for me. I hate cactuses and I'm a night owl. Emily's like, oh, I could just switch rooms like illegally, right? Like I don't need the permission of the administration. Yeah, absolutely not. And so Emily is like, what if I could convince your roommate –
to switch rooms with me. And then I live with you and your annoying roommate goes and lives with Sasha. See, that's kind of like another layer of like manipulation fucked up because actually she should be the one to switch. But I guess she wants to live with her friend, but she's really like,
kind of backstabbing Sasha, putting her in the room with this girl. But honestly, Sasha's like put her through a lot. So it's like, I don't know. It's hard to know who's right here. I'm down to be petty. Yeah.
Yeah. Emily's like, I know that Sasha is like a night owl. So it's not going to be as hard for her as it was for Harper. Okay. Perfect. Yeah. So she's like, go talk to your roommate. So Harper talks to her roommate and her roommate is like, yes, I would love to not live with you. You're like always whining about this cactus that I quote unquote killed. They actually hate each other. They actually hate each other. Yeah. So Emily switches rooms. Okay. And now she lives with Harper. Okay. How do you feel about that?
Well, they're going to fall in love, obviously. Uh-oh. Harper is great. She's like a really soft-spoken kind of girl. And she's like not in the songwriting program with Emily. So she's like, I don't have to see her all the time, which is nice. Oh, great. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
They have like zero romantic tension. Oh, perfect. But they're like very quickly close. Yeah. Where it's like they're talking about their whole relationship backstories. They're drawing like, you know, family trees to be like, here's who my weird uncle is, right? Like all this stuff. Blurring the lines if you ask me, but yeah. Yeah.
But it's hard to know as women. This is the problem with like lesbian relationships. It's just like the lines are so blurred. You have no idea where to tell or when things are going to like go awry. So and then, oops, suddenly we're in love. Right. And it's like, how do you know the difference between platonic intimacy and romantic intimacy? Right. Like that's a really complicated question. Right. That's what I'm asking my girlfriend all the time when she texts her ex. Right.
I'm like, how do you know? You're just friends. What message are you sending her? She's like, no, I swear. We just like exchange memes about the Pope. I'm like, what? This seems awfully personal. They're going on all of these late night Taco Bell runs together. Like they're getting close. Okay. My love language. They decide one night they're like, we're going to go to this 70s themed party.
And Emily is like, Harper, you should wear these tie-dyed overalls that I have. Like, they're really cute. They'll look great on you. And Harper's like, great. Cute. Yeah. So Harper puts on the overalls. They go to the 70s theme party. And immediately they see Sasha. Yeah.
Oh, no. And she's with another girl or guy who knows. And she's like having a great time, right? Like kissing somebody on the dance floor. And Emily is like, this is so hard. What the fuck? Yeah. And then Sasha comes over and is like, Harper, these are like great overalls.
And she's like saying hi to Emily, saying hi to Harper. And Emily has like a pang of jealousy that she knows is like not fair because they broke up. But she's still jealous. I would literally lay in traffic or like immediately down like eight tequila shots. Yeah.
It's like so hard to get over someone that you can't get away from. Oh, my God. Yeah. And seeing them make out with somebody else at that age. It's like the world is actually ending. Yes. And you see her all the time because you're in the same program. Right. So it's like you can't even be like, OK, clean break. Right. In the spring semester.
She signs up for her classes. Emily shows up the first day. And who's in one of her classes but Sasha? Of course. Right, right. To make matters worse, the class is called Writing Love Songs. Oh, my God. This is tragic. Oh, my God.
And they are supposed to pair up to write love songs. Oh, my God. This is terrible. I would immediately ask to switch or like does a breakup song count as a love song? Yes. Because I would just write a song to Sasha that's so heartbreaking and make her feel like shit and then get an A in the class. That's two birds with one stone. Yeah. And you've like written a great breakup song. Right. Right.
After the first class, Sasha comes up to Emily and is like, listen, I know this is really weird for us to both be in the same class. And do you want to essentially declare a ceasefire in this cold war that we're having? Yeah. And Emily's like, yeah, totally. I think we can be normal about this. Easier said than done. I could never be normal. Neither could they. No. And Sasha is like, also...
I think we work really well together. Like, would you want to pair up to do the songs in this class? Sasha's so toxic. I literally can't with her. Like, she's just like not minding Emily's feelings and it's getting to me. What do you think Emily should do here?
Emily should switch classes. She shouldn't be a singer songwriter anymore. Abandon her whole life and put her feelings first. I'm like, just intern under Taylor Swift. You'll be on top. Like there has to be other ways. Emily goes back to her dorm room and she's like, Harper, what do you think I should do here?
And Harper is like, I don't know, because it's like, seems like a really bad idea to work with Sasha because she is like, you're very emotionally entangled with her. Yeah. But Harper's also like, you do work really well together. And it could be like Fleetwood Mac hours where like, sure, there's a little emotional drama, but like, is that worth it for great songs? We could top the charts with this relationship. Let's try and at least make some money off of it.
I'm kind of here for that, too. I'm just here for the mess. But actually, I'm like, don't do it because she probably has enough like inspiration and heartbreak on her own. Like she doesn't need Sasha's ass who just like doesn't care about her. Emily is like not thinking this critically. She's like, it's going to hurt, but I think it will be worth it because we'll get some great socks. Yeah, never worth it, Emily. Come on. So the two of them pair up.
They are writing all of these songs together. They're helping each other. They're getting some songs that like Emily's really proud of. Yeah. But they're hanging out more and more because they are writing together. And as they're hanging out, she's like falling back into the like wormhole of Sasha. Yeah, naturally. Has this ever happened to you?
I'm like, I've never been a singer-songwriter. Yet. Yeah, literally yet. But I always – like I've backslid into my exes so many times. But also whenever I do that, I feel like it's even more confirmation validation that I didn't want to be – or like why we broke up. It's like, oh, you actually are like –
whatever an asshole who like isn't going to change. So, and this one last like sleep together is really putting it in stone. Yes. But I understand. And it's hard because she's like, I do really like Sasha as a person. Right. And like, we're very close friends.
Yeah. But like also that's all tangled up in the kissing. Right. Which is like the problem. And that's what lesbians do. Like you don't you can like someone as a person from afar. You don't need to be their friend. You don't need to be their singer songwriter partner. You can like for your own sake separate yourself. Yeah.
That is a great idea. That is not what they do. They're like, we're writing all these songs together. It's very romantic. They like think that they invent a new form of songwriting where like they each write one line of the verse. Yeah. And then they write the chorus together. Okay. Wow. Pioneers. I know. They're like, we're going to make a whole album of these.
Crazy. So they're spending a lot of time in Emily and Harper's room because Harper's ex-roommate is, in fact, annoying. Yeah, yeah. And they begin smooching. Oh my god. Emily and Sasha, they're smooching. They're being a little romantic. These songs are getting them a little worked up. I literally can't with them. And Emily's like,
I don't know what's going on. Like, are we back together? Like, how do I know? Naturally. And she's always the one in the relationship that's like left guessing. And that's what I don't like because I feel like Sasha has the upper hand. Emily's like, I'm so stressed because I'm like, we're kissing. We're like doing other stuff. We're all these things to each other, but I don't know what we are.
And around this time, she goes to a party. And this is where she encounters what we will call the Bailey problem. Okay. And Bailey's problem that she's constantly creating is that she thinks it's fine to kiss your friends. Bailey, can you not? So she's like, it's totally fine. You can just kiss all your friends. That's totally normal, like adorable, whatever. We love it. It's literally not, though. It's literally not. They've done college shit when you're like drunk and you're like, watch my car.
It doesn't translate to real life. Emily goes to a party without Sasha. Bailey's there. She kisses Bailey. Okay. And then she's like, I feel like low key guilty, even though like me and Sasha don't have like an agreement. Yeah. Sasha doesn't give a fuck about you, Emily. I'm so sorry. Don't feel guilty. What do you do here?
I know she's going to run back and tell Sasha, but I would take it to the grave. I'd be like, don't ask, don't tell policy. Like nobody needs to know. Emily is like, you know, she's been taking some gender studies classes. So she's like, my mind is opening. And she's like, maybe the reason that me and Sasha didn't work is because we were exclusive. Yeah.
She's like, maybe we need a new version of love, like one that is honest and personal and open. Oh, I can't. That's one thing. This is one topic. This is good to explore, actually, for me, because I feel like in the queer community, people love to talk about poly. I'm like, is being monogamous the only
old being straight. Like we just have to open up our minds a little bit more. We're not as progressed, but I don't think that's the case for me. I love being monogamous and I'm just way too jealous of a person. Yeah. I think it's also interesting because like there have been people in polyamorous relationships forever, right? Like there's a long history of people in polyamorous relationships, but like every generation as they enter adulthood is like, I have a new idea that no one's done before. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It's like drugs, right? Like every generation thinks they invented drugs. Yeah. We're doing something new and crazy that our parents have never done. Right. Like the monks were fully doing opium. I don't know. Yeah. Literally. It is a naturally occurring herb. Like we didn't invent this. Yeah. Yeah.
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Emily is like, so I think that this is the future polyamory. And I think this is a great idea. And I think me and Sasha should just be in an open relationship.
I feel like Emily is kind of all of us who are just so down bad and trying to make excuses and be like, okay, this is okay. I'm just learning a new part about myself. Like I can morph into what anyone else wants me to be. And I'm using education as a crutch. Now I'm really smart. So, and like credible, it could work. Emily goes to Sasha and she's like,
Would you be interested in like trying us again, but differently?
And Sasha's like, what are you talking about? And Emily's like, okay, so I read The Ethical Slut. And I think there's like a lot of options for us where we could like open our relationship. She's like telling her all these things that she learned in the book. She's like, we could do all of these things. Like, here are some options we have. And Sasha's like, I can totally see a pathway in which there's like a possibility for us to approach romantic entanglement. Like, I can totally see that.
Okay. And Emily is like swooning. Yeah. She's like, she's one of me. Our ideals are so aligned. We think the same. We're meant to be together. Yes. And Emily's like, we're not going to be naive about it. We're not going to be children about it. Like we're going to be sophisticated.
Yeah, at 19. At 19. And the way that we'll be as sophisticated is we will have boundaries. Right, right. So she is like, the boundaries that we're going to make, they talk about it together. And she and Emily come up, they're like, here are our boundaries. No hooking up with shared friends. Okay, which it's like all lesbians have shared friends. So that immediately isn't a thing. First dibs on like birthdays and holidays go to each other, right? So like on your birthday, I get to see you on your birthday if I want to.
Yeah. And every week we're going to go on a little date and like talk about stuff.
Okay. Yeah, this all seems very obligatory, which I feel like is the opposite of a relationship. I understand boundaries and stuff, but as far as rules go, it's like, well, what if Sasha wants to do it with the other girlfriend or whatever? And then you feel obligated and then it takes all the fun out of the relationship and then resentment starts to build. I'm on to them. This at first goes great.
Yeah. Emily dates someone else in addition to Sasha. And she's like, this is perfect. I have two girlfriends. Yeah. She's like, I feel secured. I feel loved. I feel happy. Okay. Wow. Yeah. One night she's like out late with this new girlfriend. She comes back and her roommate Harper is out and she's like, oh, this sucks. I wanted to like talk to somebody about this. Right. Yeah. So she texts Harper and is like, hey, like, where are you? I want to discuss my date. And Harper's like, oh, I'm like staying out tonight. Yeah.
Yeah. And Emily's like, okay, but that's also terrible for me. Right. Because who am I going to talk to about this? Yeah. That week she goes to class. She and Sasha write this like lovely hot song about going out dancing with somebody that you're attracted to. And Emily's like, this is so good. I'm so proud.
But she's also in the back of her mind like, we don't go out dancing. I was going to say like, who is this song about? And she's getting like a creepy feeling of jealousy. Oh, God. A couple weeks later, it's Sasha's birthday. And Emily's like, I planned you a beautiful romantic picnic. Sasha's like, perfect. I'll see you at four. And Emily's like, great.
But when Sasha shows up to the picnic, she's like tired and cranky and hot. And Emily is like, what's going on? Why are you so tired and cranky? And Sasha's like, oh, I just like I went to the beach this morning. And so I'm like a little sun tired. Okay, sketchy. And she's like, okay, whatever. So she's like, she's feeling a little bad. And then when she goes back to her dorm room, she notices that Harper has a sunburned.
Oh my God, I'm dead. No, not Harper. I was hoping there would be like some kind of villain and I think I found her out. Do you confront Harper? Like you're in the room with her. She's your roommate. She has a sunburn, which is not necessarily damning, but feels damning. Right, right. I can just-
imagine her stomach's in her butt. So I feel like I would just, yeah, ask her like, oh my God, where'd you get that sunburn? You know, just ask like questions around it to try and find out more of the situation. I don't know if I would accuse her right away, but I would definitely like in a roundabout way, try. Yeah. Emily's like,
Oh my God, what were you doing today? Yeah. And Harper's like, oh, you know, just like piddling around. Yeah. The fuck is piddling Harper? And Emily is like, but like, it looks like you got a lot of sun. Yeah. And Harper's like, oh yeah, I was just outside all morning.
You're like, were you outside with my girlfriend? Say it. Yes or no. Emily like literally cracks and she's like, is there something going on with you and Sasha? Yeah. A woman's intuition. And Harper's like, I don't know. I wouldn't say that anything's like going on. I think we're just like feeling each other a little bit. Oh my God. Criminal. What the fuck? Now what do you do?
Um, immediately cry, move my stuff, change my career once again. It's like, get the fuck out. I would go. I mean, I would confront Sasha and break everything in her room. Like JWoww style and be like, I know what the fuck is going on. This was a clear boundary. Yes. Emily goes immediately to Sasha's room and she's like,
Are you with Harper? Yeah. Like, tell me to my face, like, don't fuck around. And Sasha's like, I mean, I do like her. Ugh. And Emily's like, this is two rules broken, right? Because you spent the morning of your birthday with Harper. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, she's really cracking down. Harper is quite literally my friend because we live in the same room. Yeah. And they were like hanging out, doing family trees, getting really close. Like that's way too close to home. Yes. Emily is like, this sucks. Like you've made me feel really bad. Like I don't know what to do here. But she's also like this open relationship was my idea. Right. Maybe I do want an open relationship, but like not with Sasha. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And it's okay to be wrong, Emily. Don't hold yourself like too accountable or get mad at yourself at this point and be like, I tried it and I don't want it. Yes. So she's basically like, to her credit, full of strength. She's like, this is not working for me. Yeah, like, I don't want this.
Yeah. And Sasha's like, oh, that sucks. Like, I'm really disappointed to hear that. Like, I thought that we were kind of like on this journey together. And I think that like the multidimensionality of these conflicts is part of what this is about. Yeah. This feels like gaslighting in a way. I don't know. I don't know who's at fault here. It's hard to say, but I do want to blame Sasha for everything. He's not the main character.
Emily's like, if you think that this like multidimensionality of conflict is interesting, then like this is never going to work. Like I don't want to do this. No, this is actually trauma and pain. So she's like, I'm out. Like no more. Like goodbye. And Sasha's like, okay, that's sad.
Yeah. But again, she's in the same problem when she's like she's seeing them everywhere because she like lives with Harper. Oh, my God. She cannot escape. She cannot escape. And like she kind of tells Harper like you need to spend more time in Sasha's room because like you've put me in this scenario. Yeah, I agree with that.
So like she does this, which is nice, but it's still like you're going to class with Sasha. You are like having to see her all the time. Right. And then one day she goes to class near the end of the semester and Sasha is wearing Emily's tie dyed overalls. Oh, my God. No, not the overalls. It's like way too close to home. Yeah. What do you do here?
Take them off of her. Use physical force and take back your shit. Yeah. Emily's like, you need to give this back to me. Like, those are mine. I loaned them to Harper. Like, give them back. And Sasha's like, I'll totally give them back. I didn't realize. Like, I'm sorry, but I'm literally wearing them right now. So I'll give them back to you later. Yeah. She does not.
No. Oh, my God. We skip forward. It is the last day of class now. They are presenting their songs. Emily is singing her songs. They are all about heartbreak. Naturally. She gets an A. She gets an A+. Sasha is presenting all of her songs, and they're all about, like, taking mushrooms and heartburn. What?
what the fuck, Sasha? At least pretend. Like, she has, like, no regard for Emily's feelings at all, which is kind of annoying because, like, I'm Emily in this scenario, but I do wish I was Sasha. It's, like, the people who are, like, just, like, a little bit more self-centered
are like happier, but everyone around them is more miserable, but it's like, they don't know the difference. Also. Some of the songs that Sasha has on her, like album, her completed project are songs that like they worked on together. Both of them. And Sasha's like, these are great. Don't you love them? And Emily's like, I want to kill myself. Literally. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Emily's like, I need to move on from these girls, right? Like, I cannot do this. So when the semester ends, she's like, I need new friends. And she's like, you know who I know? Bailey. She's like, Bailey, hello. We kissed one time. Can I sleep on your couch? And Bailey's like, of course you can sleep on my couch. Absolutely. So she's now free, right? She's spending more time at their apartment. She doesn't have to see Sasha and Harper anymore. She stays on the West Coast all summer, has a great time with Bailey. Oh, thank God.
But she hears through the rumor mill that Sasha and Harper have gotten an apartment together. Oh, tragic. But it's okay. Like life is going to go on without you. Just like keep ignoring it. Don't go on social media. Like with my breakups, like because, you know, friends like love to screenshot and send you things. Yes. And I'm like, don't. Don't do that. I don't want to know. I don't want to know who he's dating. Like just like I loved Ignorance is Bliss. Yeah. Yeah.
So she's like, this is great. They're not here anymore. I'm with this new crew of friends. Like, I'm feeling more confident. I'm going on dates. All summer, she has a great time. Good. Doesn't hear from them. You know, like, mutes all their stories and shit. Literally perfect. Yeah. In bliss. Yeah. Then in early fall semester the next year, she gets a text. Oh, God. And the text is from Sasha. Okay. And the text is like,
I have some of your stuff from like when we lived together. Can I bring it by? Why? This is like so much later. Obviously, Emily hasn't been worrying about it because she didn't ask for her stuff back. And those are the things I hate about breakups. It's like, oh, you want your crusty underwear? No, throw it out. Exactly. Like I'm doing you a favor. Yes. Yes.
Emily is like, she would be 100% in line with you. But she's like, I want my overalls back. These goddamn overalls. Just tie-dye your own. Just do it again. Just make your own pair. Chalk it up as a loss. She's like, sure. You can bring them by my apartment on this date. And Sasha's like, okay.
So Sasha shows up with a box and in the box is like a waffle iron and like one of those shower caddy things that you like to a shared bathroom and like a phone charger. Yeah. Everything but the overalls and things that you don't care about. Yes. And Emily has like prepared for this. Right. So she's like, I'm saying nothing. I'm like, thank you for bringing my stuff back. Zip. Nothing else. Mm hmm.
And Sasha's like, this is so awkward. Like, I feel like it's really awkward between us. And Emily's like, yes. Well, obviously you're like dating my best friend and you've put me through so much. Like, it's going to be awkward. Yes. And then Sasha takes a deep breath and she's like, I want you to hear this directly from me. Oh, no. Oh, no.
We are getting married this Saturday. This Saturday? This Saturday. What the fuck? This kind of not the same thing, but something similar has happened to me. What? I
I am Emily. I tell you, this is my story. But not to the extreme, but I was dating this doctor. He was like my last serious relationship before Robbie. And we worked together, obviously. And the lines were blurred. And we were still talking after I break up, whatever, whatever. And then he calls me just to talk. And I'm like, oh my God, this is it. We're going to get back together. I have her
the breakup and he's like be nice he's like well I'm just calling you to tell you I'm in a new relationship and she's doing a rotation on your unit next week I'm like fuck you fuck everyone burn this place to the ground yeah literally I'm like so you didn't call to talk to say you like desperately miss me and I am the love of your life you're like hang up block number
Right. Exactly. Also, just send me a text. Like, at least he didn't show up like face to face. Sasha really thinks highly of herself that she needs to like do this. Emily is like, she takes a deep breath and she's like, thank you so much for letting me know.
I have things to do. Goodbye. Yeah, literally. But also I would have been fine without knowing. Like we've moved on. I'll see the photos on Instagram. Talk mad shit. But like, what do you owe me? We're not together anymore. So you're just making it worse. Yes.
Yes. On Saturday, the Saturday, she starts getting photos from her friends that are like, uh, and then underneath it is a photo like shot from far away across the park. And it's like clearly Harper and Sasha in white dresses. Oh my god. Yeah.
And it's like so performative art piece, right? Like there are more photos coming in and it's like flower crowns, right? A theremin, glitter all over their faces, them under a big tree in the park. Yeah, yeah. This does sound like a college wedding. It's like you guys get your shit together. You're embarrassing yourselves. Yeah. Emily is like, this is kind of great for me because like I'm able to like have a little bit of closure here. Right. Totally. And then she logs onto Instagram.
And they've posted like an Instagram post, right? Like a kind of blurry, like tied up on their face with like glitter everywhere. And the caption is a lyric. And the lyric says, young love may be stupid, but I'd be stupid forever for you.
And did Emily write that? Emily fucking wrote it. Yes. No. Emily's like, that's my fucking lyric. Like I wrote that line. No. I literally can't with Sasha. Like no coups, no morals. Emily does not fave the post. She does not comment. Yes. She DMs it to like 15 people. Yeah. She's like, send to my friends. Yeah.
We are almost at the very end. How do you feel? Whose side are you on? I'm definitely on Emily's. I mean, like I can understand people. No, I can't understand people like I know they exist in the world. And again, I wish I was Sasha because they just like don't give a fuck about other people.
Yeah. I don't actually wish that, but it's like, are those people happier? Like, because they don't really have consequences and stuff and they get to live in this world of delusion. Like what I would give for a little delude. Yeah. Like having a little delusion as a treat. Right. Yeah, exactly. But I'm an Emily stand. I'm here for her. Like, I hope since then she's like really made it through. I'm sure she's had to be in years of therapy. Yes. She's very brave. Yeah.
They have a couple more classes together over the course of their like program. Oh my God. They graduate. Emily gets a job. She's like working on real songs in the industry. She gets a girlfriend. She's like, I'm feeling so great. Yes. She moves into this little house in this little neighborhood and she like goes, you know, they're like, there's like a closed coffee shop. So we'll like walk there and get a little coffee in the morning. Yeah. She walks in.
Behind the counter is a barista. It's Sasha. It's Sasha. Yeah. She's wearing the overalls.
Oh, my God. These tragic overalls burned. They literally need to be lit on fire. And she has cropped them. No. Like, yeah, probably like at the knees. Like like into shorts. OK. Yeah. I'm like, you know, the lesbians love to wear the long shorts with the cowboy boots. Yes. Do you ask for them back? Fuck no.
No, I don't. What are you doing here? You're turning around and leaving? Yeah, well, they're like so tainted. I'd be like, oh, nice overalls, you crazy bitch. Take my coffee and go. Emily is like, you know, she wants her coffee. So she like goes up, she orders and she's like,
it's so good to see you. Like, this is my girlfriend, so and so, whatever. And she's like, I know it's weird, but like those overalls are mine. And like, I would like them back. Yeah. Emily, give it up though. This is like, I've had your back until this moment. Sasha's like, it's so good to see you too. Like, I'm so sorry. Like, you're right. These are yours. Like, I'll go change. I'll give them back to you. Oh my God. Emily's like, great. Yeah. She gets her coffee. She's, you know, like sipping her little iced oat latte. She's like sitting there waiting. Yeah. Two minutes pass. Yeah.
Five minutes past. Ten minutes past. Sasha just dipped. She's like, you're never getting these overalls back. This is like a heist and I'm escaping. Literally, Emily goes to the counter and is like, where's Sasha? She was supposed to bring me something. And the other baristas are like, oh, Sasha went home. She had some kind of family emergency. A family emergency? She is so crazy for this. She escaped. Oh my god, this
is so nuts like taking it way too far i gotta get me a pair you gotta get a pair yeah knowing what kind of power they have over people yeah so emily is like this sucks she's like but also now i know that you live in my neighborhood so like i will see this girl again yeah yeah she's like on the hunt out police patrolling like looking for these overalls she's like this in my life yeah yeah
But she is happy now, which is great. So it all turned out fine for her. I know. Big flex that she showed up with a girlfriend. Nothing better than running into an ex when you look great and are like, it's so good to see you. Oh, my God. Absolutely. In your happy relationship, it's like where you divorcee. In my overalls, you can't pick up me. In my overalls, give them back. Yeah.
Gabby, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you. Oh my God, thank you. I had so much fun. This podcast is produced by Alex Sujong-Loughlin and Ozzy Linus Goodman. Justin Ellis is Defectors Projects Editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors Business Guys. Tom Lay is our Editor-in-Chief. Jay Tolviera is our Associate Producer.
Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Daramola, Ray Rado, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season. And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company, and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.
I'm Kelsey McKinney, and please remember, you did not hear this from me.
