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It's not totally surprising that she was trying to make money off of this encounter of this very rich, very powerful man. But that doesn't mean that she's not telling the truth. My colleague Nomi Frye has spent the last several weeks thinking and writing about Stormy Daniels. Donald Trump seated just 10 feet away as the woman at the center of his hush money cover-up trial, Stormy Daniels, testified in vivid detail.
As prosecutors prepare to rest their case in The People vs. Donald Trump, I wanted to talk with Nomi about her new piece, Stormy Daniels' American Dream, which considers Daniels' canniness, her credibility, her life experience, and her recent testimony in Manhattan criminal court. You're listening to The Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggett, and I'm a senior editor at The New Yorker.
Hey, Naomi. Hi, Tyler. Thanks so much for being here. Oh, my God. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad that you can be on. It's kind of like a collab between our two podcasts. Yes, yes. It's similar but different. Yeah, I'm in the same studio we usually record in, so it feels like home.
So last week you went to the Trump trial for the first time. And, you know, we've had Eric Latch on the show who has been going to the trial like every single day since it began. But I feel like you were in the position that most of us have been in, which is that you've been following it on the live blogs, you know, on X.
and whatnot. And then you had the experience of actually going there and seeing things in person. And so I'm wondering what surprised you most about being there and kind of seeing it live versus what you'd been hearing before. I mean, I think in general, the experience of going to court to report, I've done it a couple times in the past. I had gone to the Weinstein trial when that was happening and
And then also the Ghislaine Maxwell trial, though that was sort of during high COVID. The space there was very limited and it was like all masked and overflow room mostly and so on. So my experience of going to a courtroom as a writer is very intermittent. But every time I've gone, because it's intermittent, I think, because I'm not like...
a court reporter, it feels very exciting being close to the action, especially when you go out
to a trial that, as you say, and it's a similar thing, it was a similar thing with Ghislaine Maxwell and Weinstein, where it's a trial that's talked about so much, but that you can't really see it. You can only kind of read about it. And so it's kind of once removed, and it's obviously a very central thing. You know, it's the first time a former president of the United States is standing in a criminal trial.
And so it's, I would even say historic, but at the same time, it's kind of, we can't really experience it. So being able to be there in the room, it's kind of electrifying in a weird way. It's electric. It's electric because it's not a very big room, you know, it's not, and just even being in the same space.
With Donald Trump, you know, in close quarters. And then, you know, in my case, it was Stormy Daniels who I saw. But whatever witness is coming in and talking about the president as he's sitting there, the former president, it just feels like a very...
rare thing to experience. And being present in that room, actually seeing it in action, feels pretty special, pretty unique. Was it your first time seeing Trump in person? It was my first time seeing Trump in person. And I have to admit, I was looking forward to it because even before he became president, he was such a
A televised, filmed, you know, mediated, like, his image, his visual image was almost cartoon-like in its omnipresence. His hair is almost like an abstract, you know, it's sort of like these blotches of color, you know, like orange hair, you know, red tie, red.
Red face, you know, sort of yay high. Like, you know, he's a big man. He's so familiar to us as a visual presence. But I was curious to experience what it feels like in person to see him, to have like the two dimensionality of that figure become real.
three-dimensional. I'm wondering if you can talk to us about Stormy Daniels' testimony, why she was taking the stand and how you think she did. So, you know, obviously this whole trial is happening because Stormy Daniels alleges that, you know, after sleeping with Donald Trump one time during a golf tournament in Lake Tahoe in 2006, she, you know, did the deed with him. He kind of
promised her or suggested that he would get her on the celebrity version of The Apprentice, of his show, his NBC show. And he kind of used it kind of as bait, you know, so she found herself being like, OK, I guess I'll sleep with him. It wasn't really coercion, but there was a power imbalance. It seemed it was consensual, but she wasn't really happy to do it. But she was like, OK, I guess I'll do it.
Then, you know, she sort of went on with her life, never slept with him again. The apprentice thing didn't pan out fine. And she continued with her life, you know, adult film star, director, screenwriter, had a child with her third husband. But then in the run up to the 2016 election, she was seeking to sell her story and failed.
It was like a few weeks before the election. It was right after the Access Hollywood tape came out. Right, right. Where, you know, Trump's talking about grabbing women by the genitals. And so you could see how, you know, having, you know, the story of an affair with Trump would not have been great. It wouldn't have played well. And so...
She alleges that Trump asked Michael Cohen, his fixer, his personal attorney, to pay her, which Michael Cohen confirms, and paid her $130,000. It was hush money. So an NDA was signed. The story was buried, essentially.
Trump claims that he didn't know about it. Then in 2018, Michael Cohen started talking about it. Stormy decided, OK, he's talking about it. I can talk about it. And so the whole thing was was revealed, basically. And Trump has continued to deny it. So the whole trial hinges on this woman's claim that she had sex with Trump and that she was paid money to not talk about
about this sexual encounter and the run-up to the election.
So her taking the stand, barring Michael Cohen now, Stormy explaining what happened, how she had sex with Trump, how she was paid not to talk about it, was kind of like the moment everyone was waiting for, right? Absolutely. For her to speak her truth and say, I was gagged, basically. You know, I wasn't able to talk about this. Now I'm talking about this. I am claiming what happened.
And I'm not going to be silenced anymore about this encounter and how they tried to make me go away. And so, you know, seeing...
These two people in the same room, these antagonists, because she's ruining everything for him, right? I mean, that's basically the crux of it. I mean, there are many other cases. There are several other situations that are ruining things for Trump, right? But in this case, in this particular criminal case, her word and her decision to speak is sort of screwing everything up.
up for him and might make him a felon, potentially. So when I said in my piece that an air of sobriety pervaded the courtroom, it's because this is, in a way, even though it's like Trump
for how fearsome he is. He's also kind of a ridiculous character. And Stormy Daniels, who's also, I mean, she's an adult film actress. You know, this is not like Hillary Clinton here, you know, or something. Well, yeah, it's kind of like an epic battle of wills. Well, I'm glad you mentioned that because in your piece, you say that Daniels came across as eminently credible. And I'm wondering if you could just explain why that was the case and if you think that she seemed as credible to the jury.
Listen, in preparation to attending the trial, I read Stormy's memoir that she released in 2018. I found the writing there intelligent and Stormy's voice to sort of come across as quite clever and funny. But, you know, you kind of never know when it's something that's written with a co-author. And so I wasn't exactly sure what to expect there.
But I have to say, I came out really impressed with her. The defense, Trump's attorney, it was specifically the day I attended, it was Susan Necklace, really went in on her, really went in and kind of like so-called like slut shamed her, you know, was like, you're an adult film actress and director and screenwriter. So you make up a lot of phony stories about sex.
Just like your line now about having sex with Mr. Trump, you know, Stormy was unruffled. My favorite line from her, I think it was in response to a question like that, was, you know, if I were making this up, I would have made up a much better story because the sex with Trump was, you know, terrible. Yeah, it was terrible sex. It was like a non-event.
Yeah. You know, per her. So she was very intelligent, stood her ground. The defense was kind of hectoring her. You know, Nicholas kept being like, you're making this all up. You're just not telling the truth right now. And Stormy was like...
You keep trying to make me say that I'm making this up. I'm not making this up. She kind of was very steadfast and solid and was able to kind of withstand this barrage of
of disbelief that came at her from the defense. And she was also unembarrassed about who she is, seemingly, at least. When Nicholas said to her, you make a lot of phony stories about sex and you're blind of work, wink, wink, Daniels was like,
No, the sex in my line of work is actually very real, just like the sex with Mr. Trump was real. She didn't sort of get confused or start. I mean, we know that Hope Hicks, Trump's former aide and
When she was on the stand a couple weeks ago, she cried, which again, I mean, I feel like if I were on the stand, you know, in a try, I might cry too. You know, it's no crime to, you know, I'm not saying that you're like a hysterical woman, quote unquote, if you cry or what have you. But Stormi was, she's tough, you know, she didn't fall apart.
Which was impressive to see. Another line that the defense, another tack that the defense was trying to go with is that not only did she lie about the sex, so she's a liar, but she also did it because she's greedy. So basically everything she is doing right now...
in the trial continuing to supposedly lie about the encounter, but also just since starting to talk in 2018 about this alleged encounter with the president, is trying to make hay, you know, trying to sort of like, it's a cash grab, not just when she tried to, you know, extort Mr. Trump himself and was like, I'm going to say that I slept with you, so you better give me money.
but also her kind of rise as a quote-unquote resistance heroine, the trompeting contingent of liberals who are like, go stormy, take him down. And selling T-shirts. Take down the orange shirt. And she has, of course, made money off of this. She, for years, was on a strip club tour called Make America Horny Again. You know, she talks in the book about how a lot of kind of resistance liberals come
which aren't necessarily her typical client, started coming to clubs to meet with her, you know. And yeah, selling T-shirts, selling merch, hosting reality shows kind of on the back of this newfound notoriety. So the defense was very much like, here, this is the kind of thing that you sell on your website. Like it's a $40 candle.
saint of indictment or something, you know, some sort of souvenir like thing. And she was like, you make $40 off every candle. And Daniels was like, I actually make $7 on every candle. You know, she was kind of very exacting and like, yeah, I'm not going to apologize that I've been making money off of this, but I'm also going to be very specific about how much money I'm making off of this.
The political scene from The New Yorker will be right back. Since Kamala Harris announced her run for president, we've had one of the most significant and overt vibe shifts in the culture that I've ever experienced. And it happened mostly online. I beheld the splendor of the memes, the mass of them, the variety of them, the enthusiasm around them. And I thought, you know, maybe our society does have something to offer.
This week on Critics At Large, we make sense of the new optimism that's broken through these last few weeks and the pervasive sense of doom that came before it. Join me, Nomi Frye, and my co-hosts at The New Yorker. New episodes drop every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. ♪
I'd love to talk to you more about the whole cash grab thing, because I do think that when people hear the phrase selling her story, that Stormy Daniels was going around trying to get someone to buy this story. You know, I think especially like in a post-MeToo era where we're so used to this idea of like,
you know, women bravely coming forward and trying to make sure that their stories are heard no matter what. I guess I'm just curious if Stormy talked a little bit about her decision to go to the Inquirer and to do it in this way and whether the whole point was to make money or whether there was a larger motivation there. Yeah, I think, you know, listen, she is a person. She is not a two-dimensional person.
And she is a person who grew up and came of age in very particular circumstances. It's the same thing of wanting, I think, for instance, in the Weinstein trial, I was thinking about this a lot.
you know, as I was attending the Trump trial is that you really want the accusers to be the perfect victims, right? You really want them to be like, you know, he like grabbed me in a dark alley and I fought him off, you know, tooth and nail, but I couldn't and I wanted nothing from him. I wasn't in touch with him ever, you know, and...
Stories in real life are obviously more complicated. So much messier, yeah.
were also currying favor with him, right? Because he had a lot of power and they wanted a foot in the door of the industry and so on. And so even after he raped them, for instance, you know, a lot of them sort of kept in touch with him and sometimes even had consensual encounters with him that...
You know, similarly to Stormy, they were sort of like grossed out by and didn't really want to do. But we're like, OK, this is, I guess, the way to get ahead. And so it's kind of a mixed bag. Right. That includes a crime and also kind of like softer coercion sometimes or just like self-interest on the part of the victims. Stormy is not a victim. You know, I mean, she never claims that she was coerced into sex. Right.
But her entire life, you know, just reading her memoir and her life story, she came from really bad poverty, neglectful parents, really had to raise herself, started stripping when she was 17, kind of made the best of it. And the context in which she grew up was a businesswoman, became a businesswoman because she was the only one taking care of herself. So she was like...
OK, I'm going to if I want to make more tips in the strip club, I have to get fake boobs, you know, because then my rate will rise. You know, if I want to be more famous, I got to also do movies, adult movies, because then I'll be a feature dancer when I go to the strip clubs. You know, so all of these things are kind of like considering the context of the industry in which she is, in which she traded and trades on her sexuality and her beauty, you
And so on. That's the world she lives in. And so it's not totally surprising that she was trying to make money off of this encounter of this very rich, very powerful man and that she tried to sell the story, you know, at certain points. But, but...
that doesn't mean that she's not telling the truth. You know what I mean? That doesn't mean that she has no moral code, that she's like, okay, I'm just going to make up this story in order to make money. I'll do anything for money. She'll do some things for money. She'll do a lot for money. But it doesn't mean that she is making it up, you know? And the interesting thing is that
The crime that he's being charged with is like the falsification of business records related to this payment that he made to her. And so even if it was a blackmail payment, it would still be the same. Yeah, it would still be culpable. I mean, I've been talking about this with Eric Latch, who's, as we said, has been going to court every day. The thing of the defense trying to prove that she didn't have sex, that she's lying about the encounter with Trump. That has to just be for the public, right? It's kind of muddying the water of the main problem.
event here, the main question, the criminal question, because it doesn't really matter. Like, what does it matter if she had sex with him? And why does it matter if she's selling a candle? You know, why does it matter if she's selling a candle? Like, the thing is, did Trump know that he was repaying Michael Cohen for
for the payment he made to Stormy to shut her up, whether it was a lie or it was a truth? Like, did he try to make the story go away as a way to influence the election? And so the whole sex question is kind of moot. It's almost like for to confuse everyone.
Or something. Yeah. It's kind of like a weird sideshow. Anyway, weird but also extremely interesting. I mean, let's face it. I mean, I think some of the most like consequential like trial testimony that we've heard like in our lifetimes in some ways. Yeah. Even if it doesn't really matter. Yeah. No, no, no. It's, you know, this is a theater that might not matter for the core legal issue at hand here. Yeah.
But it matters in the sense that it tells us something about our culture, you know? I mean, how we feel about women, how we feel about money, how we feel about power, how we feel about, like—
What kind of president are we willing to have, you know? And have again. And have again, possibly. So, of course, it's extremely significant. So the big news in the Trump trial this week is that Trump's former lawyer and fixer, Michael Cohen, has taken the witness stand. I wanted to start by talking about his TikTok story.
What a man. He's been going live on TikTok basically every night. Trumpism is fascism, and we must eradicate it from our body politic. The only way that we keep democracy over autocracy is by voting.
He promised prosecutors that he would stop doing this because he's been talking about the Trump trial during these live streams. Yeah. But it's like he can't stop himself. It's almost like he is the most like Trump of any of the people who have turned on Trump. You know, like it seems like he's just obsessed with the Internet. Right. So during these TikTok lives, users will put things like cartoon cowboy hats or sunglasses on his head and then they'll pay him in TikTok cash.
I don't quite understand it, and I'm wondering if you do. I mean, you know, Michael Cohen, just a couple days ago, a friend of mine sent me a cameo. So Michael Cohen is on Cameo. Can you explain what Cameo is? Yes, for those of the listeners who aren't familiar, Cameo is this service where celebrities of various, you know, from let's say C-level to Z-level give interviews
personalized messages, shout outs. Like you pay, but the rates vary. You know, it can be like $10. It can be like $1,000. A lot of them are kind of in the middle. Say, Tyler, you have a birthday. I know you really like a particular celebrity. I'll go on Cameo. I'll pay like whatever, $200. And I'll say, can you give a shout out to my friend Tyler? She really likes X and Y. She's turning 62.
and tell her you love her. And then the celebrity will send a personalized video. And so Michael Cohen has been shilling these cameos, right? And just the other day, a friend of mine sent me a cameo that was sent to a friend of hers for her birthday. Hey, Amy, it's Mike Cohen. How are you? This cameo is to wish you a very happy and a very healthy 43rd birthday. Look, I was asked to... And it was long, okay? Yeah.
A lot of these cameos are really short. OK, you know, it's a money making for sure for these people. So, of course, hundreds of requests and they have hundreds of requests. So you want to keep it short. You know, it's like 30 seconds. You know, Tyler, I love you. You know, Nomi is saying like, happy birthday. You're a star. You know, that's it. OK, so.
This video was four minutes long. Now, we all know that it's not, you know, a milestone when I consider milestones the zeros and the fives. Which, you know, reads in some ways as a kind of generosity of spirit. You know, I'm going to give you your money's worth. But it's also just like, I think, as you say, Michael Cohen loves the Internet, loves to talk on the Internet. It could be about the trial on TikTok. It could be saying like, you know, giving you life lessons for your birthday. Yeah.
Not necessarily asked for, even. In the Jewish tradition, to people who we care about, to people that it's important, you always say to 120, meaning, Amy, that your life should be filled with nothing but health, happiness, success, love. I kind of love Michael Cohen. I have to admit. There's something so central casting about him. Totally. The sort of like,
Long Island businessman, rough around the edges, sort of family man. You know, he's a felon, yes, but his heart is full of love. That's kind of like the vibe I'm getting from him. And he just loves to share online and he can't stop himself. We'll have more with Nomi Frye after the break.
If you have thoughts or questions about today's episode, send us an email or a voice memo to themailatnewyorker.com. Be sure to put the political scene in the subject line.
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I'm wondering if you can talk to us about, now that you've been to court and you've kind of seen the situation, you know, you hear Stormy Daniels testify, whether you think that this is going to be the kind of trial that actually has...
some kind of political impact, regardless of whether the jury decides that Trump is guilty or not. I mean, you know, I don't know, legally speaking, exactly what the ramifications might be. Apparently there are like none. Right. I remember you told me that I asked you, you know, before I went to trial, I was like, OK, does it actually matter, legally speaking, like for his
ability to become president. And surely, even if he's convicted, they're going to appeal, you know, right? So it's kind of like, it could get dragged out. And then there are all the other trials, of course. This isn't the only legal drama that Trump is embroiled in. You know, one thing I found interesting is that I was wondering if, at least during the stormy portion, which is kind of a more...
exciting you know kind of the crux of the matter and has provided so far the most interesting moments of the trial if that would ignite people outside the courtroom you know protesters kind of like a sense outside the courtroom that this matters for the world you know and I
And I felt like with press and the sort of energy in the courtroom, it did feel like there was an interest and an energy within the courtroom with Stormy testifying. What about outside? But outside, it was very sleep. Like there was one person or two people would like convict Trump or something, banner. And then there was another person with a Trump, you know, 2024 flag, convict.
kind of across, you know, in the little park across the street from the courthouse. But that was it, you know? I mean, there were definitely a lot of reporters kind of like shooting outside. Judge Jeanine Pirro, for one, you know, Jake Tapper was there. So, you know, the press was kind of like talking. But in terms of people, just regular people off the street, there was almost nothing. I found that interesting and I was like...
Oh, I wonder if everybody is just so tired already, you know, or, you know, we've it's like we've been through so much with this man, with Trump, that, I mean, it might be that like closer to the election, the actual election things will kick more into gear. But
This is kind of a sex scandal, you know, it's sort of giving like in kind of the great tradition of presidential sex scandals, you know, like Gary Hart or like Kennedy and not to mention Clinton, of course. It's kind of less about the republic, I guess. It's kind of like a bit more of a sleazy sidebar, even though, of course, it's historic, you know, legally speaking. Maybe it's less kind of like involving or touching to people.
I feel like one thing that we've been trying to figure out as we publish stories about the trial is, like, how much of this just feels like old news because so much of it was already reported or it's appeared in various memoirs. Do you think that that's part of what's going on here, is that people don't care because they already know? I think there's a fatigue. This has been going on for a long time, that these people have been talking, kind of telling their story. For someone...
Like myself, who knew the story, of course, and the broad strokes of it, at least, I came away with like a with a respect for her. Just just hearing her speak, you know, so for me, it was kind of an affecting thing. But I doubt it's going to sway any Trump supporter to be like, oh, she's telling the truth. You know, it's I think people are kind of their minds are usually made up. And I don't know if Stormy's testimony is true.
especially since they can't actually hear it, will sway them. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. And I do just love the idea of this person who has long been cast as like this dumb, blonde, bimbo, you know, out for money, like that she is the person who, you know, could lead us to the first conviction of a U.S. president. It's kind of crazy. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. And in a way, it's kind of like,
She's not just like this adult film star who Trump slept with. She's like maybe one of the more important political figures of our time. I know. And I think it's like it's kind of in a way it's justice for all the so-called bimbos that American presidents have cheated on their wives with, you know, throughout American history. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Nomi. Thank you, Tyler. I loved being here.
Nomi Frye is a staff writer at The New Yorker and the co-host of The New Yorker podcast, Critics at Large. You can read her latest piece, Stormy Daniels' American Dream, at newyorker.com. This has been The Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggett. The show is produced by Julia Nutter and edited by Gianna Palmer with production assistance from Jake Loomis and Mike Kutchman. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Chris Bannon is Conde Nast's head of global audio. Our theme music is by Alison Leighton-Brown.
Enjoy your week and we'll see you next Wednesday.
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