Atomic Parenting Habits 31:28

I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. Developing good habits can be hard, whether it's the habit of prioritizing self-care as a parent or getting your kids to brush their teeth or do their homework. Small changes can make a big difference. This week, I'm talking to James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits, about little steps we can all take to change our habits and get 1% better every day. Back in a minute.

I often hear that parents have a really hard time really getting into self-care habits that they know. People are saying like, I know that I can't fill myself up by pouring myself out. I know I'm not a good parent when I don't take time for myself. And when I tell my kid, okay, I guess I won't go on my walk because you're crying. Like, I actually know that's not good for anyone, but still.

That's so hard. So a self-care habit. And then I also know everyone listening is thinking, you know, those day-to-day transition habits, whether it's getting out the door, putting your stuff away, kids when they come in or starting homework. Like, I would love to kind of address both of those. You know, when you have young kids, it's just a really tough period. And so I think, first of all, you can't be...

Having a bad attitude about it or tearing yourself down or feeling guilty about it just makes it harder. Like it's hard to optimize during those periods. There's just some truth to that. Yeah, it's just a difficult period. So I think you need to have at least a little bit of forgiveness with yourself. Feeling bad about it doesn't put you in a better position to solve it. Now, that said, there are a variety of things that you can do to try to make it easier.

The first thing is you're going to have to give something up. And this is something that was really hard for me. But the question that I keep coming back to is what season am I in right now? So before I had kids, I was in a season where the career burner was turned on high and I could spend a lot of time on that. And the family and friends burner was turned down lower. And then you transition seasons. And usually when your seasons change, your habits need to change.

And that was like fairly obvious to me when it comes to habits that were like a waste of time. Okay, now I don't have as much time to watch TV or to browse YouTube or check email or things like that.

But it was much harder for me to realize that. And it probably took me like a year and a half to give up some of the things that previously benefited me. They were like really good habits in my old season, but they're just not a good fit for the current season. And that I think is a much harder conversation to have with yourself where you're like, listen, I know this is good. I know it's enjoyable, but it's just not a good fit for where I'm at right now.

And so your filter for what you say no to has to raise. And I feel like I'm always bad at that. I feel like I'm always three to six months behind on what I should be saying no to, but

This realization that self-care takes work, that it doesn't just happen, that can be a difficult transition. But accepting it allows you to maybe raise that filter for what you say no to and carve out a little bit more time for some of those things that put you in a better position for the rest of the day. I think that's right. And I think something I always wish was taught to parents or like even any of us earlier is, especially when you become a parent,

Taking care of yourself always goes hand in hand with someone being upset about it. You're not going to avoid that. Like someone is inconvenienced. Your kid is crying because you say, nobody can watch me in the shower today. Maybe my self-care is taking a shower without my child knocking on the door. And I think we often expect or want like our kid to be like, you deserve that. Like something unconscious, like, yes, mom, you go get that time for yourself. But often taking care of ourself does come with our kid protesting. Yeah.

Yeah, that can be a hard part about parenting. You'll never get paid for it. You'll never get praised for it. And sometimes it feels thankless in that way. But I talk about this with my wife sometimes, like they can't tell us, you know, there are kids are really young, so they can't tell us that it's okay or that we deserve it or that we need it. But that doesn't mean they don't love us or don't care for us. Like, in fact,

the greatest threat to them is that we're not there, that we're not available or that we can't care for it. Like it's, there's nothing that they care for more than us, but they're not in a position or an age to express it that way. So it'd be nice sometimes if they could say it, but they can't. And realizing that I think makes it a little bit easier to accept. Yeah. So if someone's listening and thinking like, yeah, okay, so my kid's going to be upset when I really do go to the gym two days a week or do take that walk, or maybe my self-care is reading a book instead of cleaning up the playroom for the

you know, 20 millionth time in the week. And they're like, okay, James, clear your habit expert. Like, can I get some tips? Like, how can I, how can I put that into action? Some of this stuff, like we could come up with ridiculous things, you know, it could be like, Oh, how to take a two minute shower or how to do it. But like some of this doesn't need to be optimized. I mean, everybody knows how to take a shower. Everybody knows what the basic self care is that they want, whether it's a walk or a workout or whatever.

So the real thing is the kids have to be taken care of. Like that's, that's a job that somebody has to do. Now, if it's not you, it needs to be someone else. Maybe it's the grandparents, maybe it's the nanny, maybe it's a daycare or they go to school, but like at some point they have to be covered by somebody. So everyone's solution for that is different and unique, but it is a reality that still needs to be managed. So you got to figure out what that is for you so that you can carve out a little bit of time.

And then I've noticed that like, this is, again, this is just unique to our situation, but for my wife and I, there are different high leverage times for each of us. So for example,

I don't really mind getting up an hour earlier so that she can sleep in or have like that hour to herself to do whatever she wants. And so I will take them for the first hour of the day. That's not that big of a deal. Then we have the middle of the day where everybody's doing their normal thing. And then what's much higher leverage for me is if I can get like an hour in the afternoon to work out or to have that coverage that that I need. And so we can just kind of trade it at the right time.

And so I think that's just a conversation that parents can often have. And I really like that framing. Like what would be the really high leverage thing to do for you? Like what's, what's a really key hour in your day that you would love to get back? And it doesn't always work out perfectly, but if you can lay out three or four or five things like that, sometimes you can find easy ways to trade that doesn't really feel like that big of a lift for the other person, but it feels like a lot for you. And so that's like, you know, that's the best possible scenario. Now, outside of that,

I've noticed that the biggest thing is the moments are so fleeting. I'm sure you felt this too. Like you need, you get 15 minutes and if you don't start right now, like if you don't start at some point in the next 60 seconds, then that time evaporates. And then it's like, oh, I lost my window to do that thing. And so getting started is probably the single biggest hurdle.

So I always like to recommend the two minute rule and two minute rules. Very simple. It just says, take whatever habit you're trying to do and you scale it down to something that takes two minutes or less to do. So read 30 books a year becomes read one page or do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat. And your only goal in these next two minutes is to get the yoga mat out.

And sometimes people resist that a little bit because they're like, okay, you know, I know the real goal is to do the workout. I know the actual goal isn't just to take the yoga mat out.

But what you really need to master is the art of showing up. You need to scale it down. Don't worry about how big or how grand it looks. You're just trying to get started as quickly as possible. So I think a lot of the time when people choose habits that they want to build, especially ambitious people, you sit down, you think about what you'd like to achieve, and you start envisioning what this peak performance would look like or what your dream scenario would look like. And it's really easy to start getting in this mindset of what could I do on my best day?

And instead, I think the better frame is to ask yourself, what can I stick to even on the bad days? What habit can I perform even when I'm exhausted or I don't have much time? And let's start there. Let's make that the baseline. And that's the two minute rule. That's the mastering the art of showing up.

And then once you start to nail that, well, if you have more time on a particular day, great, you can expand it and improve from there. But the two minute rule kind of pushes back on that perfectionist tendency or that desire to do more and encourages you, listen, let's just master the really small thing. Let's take advantage of the next two minutes and see what we can turn that into.

Yeah. Something I always have seen with my clients in my private practice is kind of behavior change often precedes identity change, even though we often want it to be the opposite. And I remember someone saying this to me, like, I'm not someone who goes to the gym. I'm not someone who works out and I want to be, but I'm not. And that was keeping this person so stuck. And it was kind of something very similar, like just taking a walk around the block for

Yes, it wasn't weightlifting. It wasn't being in CrossFit. But all of a sudden, she started saying very different things about herself, but only after these kind of small shifts. Yeah, this is something I talk about in the book. You know, true behavior change is really identity change. So the goal is not to like read a book. The goal is to become a reader. The goal is not to do some silent meditation retreat. It's to become a meditator. The goal is not to run a half marathon. It's to become a runner.

And in those examples, I'm using actual labels, you know, reader and runner and meditator. But it's just true for general characteristics that you would like to have as a person. I'm the type of person who shows up on time or I'm the type of person who finishes what they start. And once you start to take pride in that aspect of your identity, once you start to view yourself in that way.

You're really motivated to stick to the habit. It's almost easier to do, you know, like the kind of person who views themselves as I'm a runner. They don't have to motivate themselves to go for a run in the same way that somebody who's just getting started might, you know, it's like, no, this is just part of what I do. This is part of my normal routine. And I think this is the real reason, the true reason that habits matter is

A lot of the time we talk about habits as mattering because of the external results they'll get you. Hey, they'll help you lose weight or get fit or make more money or be more productive. But they can do all that stuff and that's great. The real reason, though, that habits matter is that every action you take is a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

So no, doing one pushup does not transform your body, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type of person who doesn't miss workouts. And no writing one sentence does not finish the novel that you dream of writing, but it does cast a vote for I'm a writer. And individually, these are small things, but collectively you start to build up this body of evidence. You keep casting votes on the pile and it starts to shift the weight of the story in favor of that. It's like, Oh, now I have some proof that I am that kind of person. And so it's,

You mentioned that behavior often precedes the identity. I mean, that's exactly how I think about it. This is the real reason that these small habits matter. You know, you show up each day and you do some small thing. And yeah, on any individual day, it doesn't change your life, but it does provide evidence of being that kind of person. And over time, you have every reason in the world to believe it. So it does a very important thing, which it reinforces your desired identity. Yeah. I'm curious, as you become a dad, you know, I found...

I've developed like systems and like logic and linearity for certain things I do in life too. And I found that was really challenged when I became a mom. Like there's so much kind of chaos or unpredictability or just, you know, like a tantrum to me is a good example. It's just like pure emotion, right? Like kind of coming out. Curious, and not like I know you that well, but I'm guessing like you're someone who really has systems. Curious if like what some of your struggles have been as a new dad, even related to that.

I think there's this like a different way to define mental toughness and persistence and discipline. You know, a lot of the time people talk about those traits. And I think especially before you have kids easy to think about the systems you build as being like, I will always do this. I will always be consistent. I will, you know, forge through any obstacle. Like I, you know, it's, um, discipline in the face of challenge, um,

And I think there's actually a different version of mental toughness, which is flexibility, adaptability, the mindset of I can work with this or it doesn't matter what I'm doing or who I'm with. I can still be happy. It doesn't matter what resources I have. I can make this work.

And that actually I think is a much more resilient mindset, especially as a parent, because you find yourself in so many situations that were unplanned or suboptimal. There are so many times when you don't have what you want or your kids don't have what they need and you need to find a way to make it work.

So in a lot of ways, the flexible are the ones who prevail and the stubborn are actually brittle and break in the face of a challenge or something that they need to adapt to. Like the greatest form of mental toughness is the ability to handle uncertainty. It's not the ability to like prepare for every scenario, right?

Preparation can still be useful. That doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to try to be prepared and to think about things. Generally speaking, being prepared makes things easier for you. But the expectation that you can prepare for every outcome or that you could preemptively worry about everything that could possibly happen and then plan for it is just not reality. And so you need to have some...

level of calmness and some level of adaptability and realizing that I actually don't know what specifically we're going to be facing today. But the most resilient thing that I can have is a mindset that can handle that uncertainty. And if you can get comfortable living in that space, I think you're much better positioned to do what you need to do rather than to say, I need to have a perfect system that runs like a flawless machine all the time.

Yeah, and I think that is hard for a lot of parents, right? Because you were saying related even self-care, that's easier before you have kids. And it's easier also before you have kids to develop things at work, even like your sense of flexibility. Oh, I'll go to dinner at seven or I'll go to dinner at nine. Like, it doesn't really matter. And then you have kids and you bring them to dinner and they're crying and you have to leave the restaurant. And you're like, I didn't get to have dinner at all. You know, like that, like it's like a different level of flexibility, right? Yeah, that's so true. You find yourself in so many situations like that.

I think I've had to remind myself, like, if I need things to be a certain way, then I'm actually being held hostage by the situation. And so I don't want my mood to be dependent on my conditions. That's actually like the truest form of mental toughness. You can put me in the middle of whatever situation, but it doesn't determine everything about how I'm feeling or how I'm going to react. Does anyone achieve that?

I know. I don't think anybody does. But I think the question is, is that a useful mindset to hold? So there are all these types of things in life that are like useful fictions. You know, everything that we have is a story that we tell ourselves. And if it's a useful story, if it helps you adapt or cope or, you know, manage the situation, then great. Then, you know, it's something that's worth carrying.

I think what isn't useful is to say, well, there's no way that I can, you know, handle all the uncertainty that's coming to me. So I'm going to try to plan for everything. I'm going to make sure that this is like, you know, I worry about every circumstance. I try to make sure that everything is, you know, pre-vetted. And it's like that, you know, that also is something that's not, that's impossible. So you're trying to find the version of this mindset that feels most reliable or reasonable to you.

I think a lot about anxiety in that way, too, is kind of uncertainty plus our underestimation of our ability to cope. And we get, you know, the more we underestimate our coping ability, the more we try to solve for the uncertainty side, which you can't solve for, rather than focusing on the coping with the uncertainty side, which is, I agree, how we build resilience. And yet at the same time, it's, I always feel like it's easier to name in an equation than...

play out in real life. You know, it's hard, you know, especially when you have kids and you care about their outcomes and you care about them wrestling with uncertainty, wrestling with uncertainty as a parent of like, well, what's the right decision? What's the right school for them? Or do I let them quit soccer? Is like sticking with soccer going to be a character building thing for them, right? Like the more invested you are, the harder it is to sit with uncertainty. Yeah.

Yeah, I start to think that like the through line is the mindset and the attitude and the approach, not any individual circumstance. There was this interesting study that was done on kids who were rejected from Harvard and kids who were accepted at Harvard and then looking at the success outcomes, you know, five or 10 years down the line. I don't remember the exact time frame.

but what they found was that there was like no significant difference. And the interesting thing was that there was a difference with another group, which was the group that didn't apply to Harvard. And so actually the most meaningful metric was whether you applied or not, not whether you were accepted. And I think the lesson that I took from that was that

Getting into a particular school or graduating or getting a particular job or all these other milestones that we have in life, any single instance actually doesn't matter that much because you wake up the next day and you still have to live life again and you still have to go through whatever the next challenge is.

But if you have the kind of mindset where you believe in yourself or you bet on yourself or you're willing to push through and persist in challenge, then nobody knows what the next thing is going to be. But by applying that mindset to whatever your next challenge is, you're going to eventually get to a place where you've had enough shots on goal that something good is going to happen. And so I think it's really about instilling that in your kids and worrying less about

oh, should they quit soccer or not? And more about, are we fostering the mindset that they need so that whatever the next thing is, they can apply it to that. And then you turn around 10 or 20 or 30 years later and they've had a lot of shots on goal at that point and they eventually find their way. Like we all are just trying to figure this out. Like nobody has the answers and everybody's life and path is unique.

And so the only thing that I think we can focus on is that kind of resilient mindset that you can is broad enough and general enough to apply to whatever the specific situation is that they happen to be facing. I hear you. I agree. All right. Any last thought on habits and parents and kids, anything they're like, oh, I got to get this in. People have to know this. Got to say it out loud. Yeah, I think so.

So the final thing that I'll say is that if you're trying to build a habit, if you just want to keep like a high level framework in your mind for what do I do with my kids? How can I make this easier on myself? There are really four things that you need to do. So you want to make the habit obvious. You want to make it attractive. You want to make it easy and you want to make it satisfying.

And those four things, obvious, attractive, easy, satisfying, they give you a way, a high level view for how to improve the odds that a behavior is going to occur. And so if you're sitting there and you're thinking about, you know, I have this habit, I keep trying to get my kid to do it, but they keep procrastinating on it. Or maybe if you're focused more personally and you say, you know, I have this habit, I do it every now and then, but I keep being inconsistent. I can't get myself to stick to it.

then you can just go through those four steps and ask yourself, how can I make the habit more obvious? How can I make it more attractive? How can I make it easier? How can I make it more satisfying? And the answers to those questions will reveal different steps that you can take to improve the odds that the behavior is going to occur.

Now, there are many things that you can do in each of those categories. There are many ways to make habits obvious, many ways to make them easy and so on. But that's like the 10,000 foot level. And I think if you just keep that in mind and you walk around the rooms that you're in and think about the habits you're trying to build, you just look around and ask yourself, hey, what can I do to make this more obvious? What can I do to make this a little more attractive? How can I make this easier on myself? How can I scale it down? And.

you're going to find a couple of things that you could tweak and improve and put yourself in a better position. So that's the kind of guiding principle. I feel like that dovetails so nicely with, to me, a core question we can always ask in parenting when we're frustrated or in any relationship is what's the most generous interpretation of the situation? Because I think naturally we can come up with the least generous, at least I can very easily. And so my kids not, this is, this happened. And it makes me think exactly about your kind of four ideas around those four questions. Like,

Why is my son always forgetting to bring his homework to school? And I know I don't want to be the parent who puts his homework in his folder for him because I don't want to have to go to wherever he is in college. And like, he's gotten dependent on me doing that. It's not helpful for anyone.

And so, you know, easily I'm like, he's so forgetful. He doesn't care about things, right? Okay. And I'm like, wait, that's all least generous. Most generous is it's hard to remember for me too. And I was like, okay. And one of the things we came up with leading with that, I was like, hey, I think sometimes it's just hard to remember. I know you're a responsible kid. I'm like seeing the good inside. I know you also want to bring your homework to school. You already did it. I wonder what can make it easier. And he came up with, he's like, I feel like I should write a note.

and put it on my bedroom door that just says, did you bring your homework from your desk to your thing, right? And I think about the principle obvious. Like, it's, you know what, it's hard for a kid to hold onto an idea that doesn't have a physical representation, right? And then it was also so naturally enforcing. He was like, oh, I brought it. Like, my teacher was happy I've been remembering my homework. But that first step, which also comes from, I think, giving generosity, because you can't help a kid

find something to make it more obvious if we're just yelling at them and telling them that you're responsible. Now we're reinforcing an identity that they're an irresponsible kid. Why would they change a behavior in the opposite direction when we're reinforcing that identity? And the obvious principle, which I think to kids often means making it concrete. I don't know if you have this with your two and a half year old. Same thing with sleep stuff. Like your kid is, oh, can I have an extra book? And I need milk and I need this. Like,

Having a visual schedule for them is so helpful. First of all, it's you and your kid against the schedule instead of you against your kid. But also now you have a thing to say, we do two books. Like it's right here on the wall instead of assuming that they're trying to pull one over you.

Yeah, those are fabulous examples. Making it visual and making it obvious like that is a really, a really fantastic move. You notice that a lot of kindergarten classrooms use things like that. Like if you're in the blue reading group, then you put your books in the blue bin and you sit at the blue table and it's just a visual connection that makes it easier for the kids.

And it honestly, it's not just kids like think about adults. When you pack for vacation, you get ready to walk out the door and you're like touching your pockets like I have my keys, I have my wallet, I have my phone, you know, like you're doing the same kind of double check those principles of making it obvious and attractive and easy and satisfying.

you can think of many different ways to apply them. But coming back to that, it gives you a little bit of a guide for what you can actually do to help cultivate better behaviors and make it easier on your kids. That's right. And I think with our kids, something I get pushed back on sometimes from parents is I'm talking to them, you know, transitions are hard, like going to the bath or, you know, getting ready for bed. Those are hard in part because kids are anticipating separation. They're smart. They get that. Like if they do that, they have to separate from you.

But also, they're often not fun. So when we talk about, oh, you know, do we want to race to the bath or do you want to, you know, me to pick you up like a plane? I hope it's not too turbulent and I'll Zoom you. And apparently I'll say like, oh, so like I have to make a joke to get my kid to listen or have that habit. But I think about adults, like, I don't know, I would,

I would engage in any habit more if it was fun. Like, that's just like a principle of humanity. Like, if it's enjoyable, we're going to want to do it. And if someone said to me, hey, do you want to take a walk with me every Tuesday? And by the way, I'm like hardly going to talk to you and I'll be on my phone the whole time and I'm like not going to look like I enjoy it. I'd be like, yeah, like I think I'm going to pass on that. So I think that norm, like your structure also normalizes for us as parents. Like, no, I'm not like

quote, having to play a game. It doesn't mean I'm going to have to tell my 20-year-old kid one day that I'm going to zoom them, you know, to the room so they take a shower. It just means all habits are easier when they're enjoyable. For sure. This is something I'm so glad you brought this up because it's something that I consider to be so important that, in

In Atomic Habits, I called it the cardinal rule of behavior change. So it's just behaviors that get immediately rewarded get repeated and behaviors that get immediately punished get avoided. And this is, as you say, just something that is part of a basic human experience, which is you want to do things that are enjoyable and you want to avoid things that are unpleasurable. And so I think it's worth asking not only for your routines and habits with your kids, but also for yourself, right?

What would this habit look like if it was fun? You know, what would it look like if it was fun for us to brush our teeth every night and practice that habit together? What would it look like if it was fun for me to meditate each day? And what form does that habit need to take for that to be true? And just asking that question will probably surface a couple ideas that you could have for improving the odds that you're going to be able to fall through on it.

And I just want to say to everyone, like, this is James Clear approved. Like, this is true. You can do this. This is not cheating. Making it fun. This is, like, part of the system. Right? Fair to say? You're signing off on fun. Yeah, for sure. Of course. Like, everything is going to be more enjoyable if it's fun. So, like, you want to try to find a way to make this pleasurable. I mean...

If we want to get scientific about it, this process of building a habit, the last part of the feedback loop is the reward. And not every behavior in life is rewarding. Sometimes things have a consequence. Sometimes they're just kind of neutral and they don't really mean a whole lot. But the reward or the pleasure, the enjoyment, the fun of the experience is a very important part of the process because it teaches your brain that

hey, that was beneficial. You should do this again when you're in the similar situation. It kind of closes the feedback loop. It tightens the process of learning and helps instill the habit because your brain wants to repeat things that are beneficial to you and it wants to avoid things that are not beneficial. So how can we amp up that experience and make it more enjoyable?

So the one thing I want to add about the reward, and I don't know if you know James knows this, but a lot of my listeners know this, is I feel very mixed at best about praise from parents, even though I know you've mentioned it and it's part of like kind of quote a reward system. Because there's many ways kids can feel reward, you know, the experience of something being rewarding.

And one experience is like internal reward. Like I feel really good about myself. And another experience is people are giving me praise. Of course, praise always feels good to me. Like that's just also a human experience. But to me, so much of kids' internal motivation, their confidence, their identity, their ability to handle situations as they get older kind of relates to this gap around how good do I feel about myself and what I do on the inside versus how good do I feel when people praise me? And the wider that gap is,

the more vulnerable you are to all types of anxiety and almost like identity crisis, right? Like, can I feel good about something without someone telling me that they liked it on Instagram, as an example? And so, I don't know, your kid's doing this habit, let's say it's my son, and he like finally brings his, you know, homework to school, let's say that.

One thing I can do at the end of that is say like, I'm so proud of you. Like, that's amazing. You did it. Or here's something I want to give you. Or, you know, here's an M&M or whatever it is, right? But in a way, I'm also training my kid about what reward he should expect. Not just a rewarding good feeling, but where the reward comes from. Does it come from me?

Or does it come from him? And I do believe the more we train our kids to look out for reward, that becomes a very, that becomes habitual too. Now, do I think when we say to our kids, I'm proud of you, we're like traumatizing our kids? Of course not. I obviously say those words too. But there's something when your kids are developing habits or doing things, in my mind, of kind of pausing

pausing and thinking, first of all, there might be something inherently rewarding. Like my son might come and say, like, I felt like my teacher was really happy with me. And I felt, I can't believe I did that. Like, I'm going to do that again tomorrow. Where I think parents worry sometimes, like if I don't praise my kid, they're not getting the reward. But I have watched my kids and they're older than your kids. Like the more I pause and if I say anything, say more things like,

What did that feel like to have your homework at school? And like, he'd be like, well, like, honestly, it felt good. Like when she called my name, like I actually had something to give her. That's the type of rewarding feeling that would actually encourage my son to develop more habits to orient toward that intrinsic reward. Because I think one of the things we often miss as parents is I don't think any of us want to be the parents.

where there's always a kid coming up to us like, did you see that? Did you see how good that was? Did you see my Legos? Did you see me dribbling outside? It's actually not even good for us. We're like, yeah, I saw it. Stop asking me. And I think we have to be really mindful when they're young about how much we're using something like external rewards or praise if that's not something long-term we want to kind of build and reinforce.

I think this is a great point. And I really like the way you describe the gap between how you feel about yourself and how much validation you get from the outside. And you don't want that gap to be very wide. It doesn't mean you don't want praise from the outside. Like we all, you know, life is results driven in a lot of ways. And we all like to have external praise. It's just that that can't be so great while your internal validation is so low. That's a dangerous balance because then you just keep chasing the praise from somewhere else.

So, you know, I view it as a tool. Praising your kids is natural. Like, I feel good when I praise them. You know, it's like it's nice to be proud of them and they should know that and they should know that they're loved and validated. And, you know, that's that's great. But I also don't think that you need to like try to praise

trick them or have some strategy or something like I think the best way to do it is just to talk about it kind of the way that you did where you said how did that feel and so they can realize that oh actually I like myself when I do that not just other people like me but I like who I am because that's really I think what you're hoping to get to is where they feel comfortable enough with themselves that they do a habit because of how they feel not because of how it makes other people feel thanks for listening

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I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.