You're Not The Boss of Me! 36:19

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He keeps ringing the doorbell. And I said, please stop ringing the doorbell. And he looks at me and, you know, ding dong, ding dong, ding dong. And it's not a big deal. But at the end of a day of like a refusal over everything and defiance over almost everything, it gets really grating. All right. If you're like most parents, you've probably experienced something like this.

I mean, maybe not the doorbell, but maybe you ask your kids to put on their shoes or clean up their toys or brush their teeth. And then instead of their doing it, they look you dead in the eye and say no. So you ask them again kindly, but they still don't listen. Maybe they run away or do the exact opposite of what you just asked them to do. And then before you know it, you're in a power struggle and everyone's upset.

If you're ready for less yelling and more cooperation, this episode's for you. I mean, let's be honest. That just means this episode is for everyone. We'll be back in a minute. So...

What's on my mind is I have a four-year-old son and I am very imperfectly trying to, you know, do gentle parenting as best as I can with obviously a lot of hiccups and a lot of unlearning that I have to do. But in the last couple of months, I've noticed that my son kind of seems like defiant for defiance's sake and he's

says things like, no, I want to do, you know, I want to upset you. I want to, those kinds of things. I, of course, you know, take a four-year-old seriously, but it did start some concerns about how I might rekindle our relationship or kind of, what's the word, kind of work on our relationship a little bit so he doesn't have that kind of resentment. And then also just generally, like what strategies I can use when it's like defiance after defiance after defiance all throughout the day,

I really start to get a short fuse at the end. So what strategies I could use to kind of manage that kind of behavior? So first of all, those words that your son says, I want to make you upset or I want to hurt you, right? First of all, these are words so many kids say. I actually think these are

kind of things adults say sometimes too. Sometimes we say it in our behavior. We're not as bold maybe to just say it verbally. And actually, I think over the course of our conversation, probably reflecting on how even me and you might express that in our own lives will probably give us a lot of insight into what's

actually going on for our kid. Because these are the situations, right? You hear kids say this, and our mind goes to, oh my goodness, my kid's a sociopath. Like, he wants to hurt people. Like, he wants people to be upset. And then we're picturing them in jail, and then we're so anxious. We feel like a horrible parent. How did I raise a sociopathic 35-year-old, right? And meanwhile, our kid is four, and we've kind of totally taken ourselves away from the moment, which gets in our way of actually helping them, helping ourselves, and then it's even more of a mess. So I promise we're going to

kind of avoid that together. We're going to think about a different pathway. And maybe the best place to go next is, can you really bring to life one example where he might say this, or maybe even where he actually did say this? Kind of the more detail, the better, so we can really get into it together.

Yeah, I'll give two examples. So the first one is he had his grandparents visiting and I'm okay with some mess, but then when it becomes completely a disaster zone, I tell him that he has to put something away before he takes something out. And I guess he was playing with his grandmother in his playroom and just dumped something. And his grandmother said, oh, they'll be annoyed. You know, your parents might be annoyed. You probably clean that up. And he said, I want them to be annoyed.

And just said that very clearly. And she, you know, came to me and said, he says this, you know, I think he really resents you guys. And he kind of doesn't, there seems to be some issue with between you guys or maybe you're too hard on him, maybe whatever. Another example is just yesterday, we're coming back from a long day, birthday party, you know, lots of different activities. And he keeps ringing the doorbell. And I said, please stop.

ringing the doorbell and he looks at me and, you know, ding dong, ding dong, ding dong. And it's not a big deal, but you know, at the end of a day of like a refusal over everything and defiance over almost everything, it's,

it gets really grating. And just to be clear, like he has very good days. So I'm not trying to say that, you know, he's always like this, but those days can be those days where he is kind of in a defiance mode can be very taxing. And yeah, just make, make my heart hurt because I'm like, we should be on the same team. And why don't you like me? Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear that. And just to bring another layer to this discussion, like what,

What were you like as a kid? Were you the kind of kid who was looking at your parent going, ding dong, ding dong, I don't care what you say? Or does hearing that make you think, oh, Becky, no, that was so not me. That would not have flown in my house or what? Yeah, no, that's the exact opposite. In fact, it's so funny that you asked this question because when I was having some trouble with him, I called my dad and I said, dad, was I like this? It's just like,

Maybe it's a personality temperament thing. I hear people talk about that all the time. And he said, no, you were notable in how well you followed the rules and how well you followed instructions. Then I thought to myself, oh, that's probably because y'all were very material. And look, you're bringing a lot of depth even to that own reflection, right? Where I too was kind of a people-pleasing kid, right? And I think a lot of us were, especially a lot of us women, right? We were kind of the quote, good girls.

And I say that in quotes because I think by the time we're adults, we all look at that phrase with a little bit of skepticism, like, what cost, right? Or how did I get that way, right? I always think babies, you know, they never come out saying, okay, whatever you want. I'll just, you know, stop eating at 9 p.m. and start eating again at 9 a.m. because it seems to annoy you if I wake up in the middle of the night. That doesn't happen, right? So we learn things.

But also knowing, Dana, knowing that you are more people-pleasing as a kid is actually really useful in how you're going to approach your son because you have kind of opposite ends of the spectrum, right? You were raised in a way that

where probably you learned, who knows how, maybe it was from punishment, maybe it's from harsh glares, maybe it was from your parents talking about, you know, how bad other kids were, and you kind of learn, oh, I better not be like that, right? So you learn, okay, what do my parents want from me, and how can I be that? And then you're saying these examples with your son, right?

are ones where essentially adults are saying, I would like X. And he's saying, oh, really? Okay, then I'm going to do Y. So he sees what you want and he does the opposite, where I'm guessing you didn't even need the instruction. You noticed what people want and just maybe fell into line, right?

So I think just as a start noticing, that's a big gap. No wonder this can feel triggering for me. No wonder this feels hard. Anytime we deal in life with someone who handles a situation pretty polar opposite from ourselves, it brings up a lot. And so I just want to acknowledge that—

This is hard. And I think it says so much about you that you're willing to look at it and name it. And I can tell you're being really curious about it. Like, what is this really about? I know I don't have a horrible kid. Something's going on. Let's get to the bottom of that. And so I just, I really do think we should take a moment to like give yourself credit for that curiosity. It's hard to be curious, especially when our kids are different.

So let's start with the ringing the doorbell example, because the first thing we want to talk about is boundaries, okay? Very often I found from my years in private practice, way even before I was on Instagram, that parents would come to me saying these, you know, stories. My kid doesn't listen. They don't listen. And not only do they not listen, Dr. Becky, like they actually do the opposite of what I'm asking them to do. And so I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to do this.

And then I hear examples. Honestly, the doorbell example is one of them. Or I live in New York City. So I'd hear, we go into the elevator and I tell them, don't press the buttons. Do not press all the buttons. And then they press every button. And so we live in floor 20. We're stopping at one, two, three, four. What is going on? I say, don't throw your cup. And then they throw their cup off the table. So often when we see our kid as defiant or not listening.

We are actually, as a parent, struggling to set boundaries. So let me use those examples, and then we'll come back, and I'm going to have you with me come up with a way to set a boundary around the doorbell, and I think we'll illustrate the difference. I have a son, my youngest. That child, not anymore, but for his first four years, he would have hit every elevator button in the world if he was near. He's just like, he experiments. He's kind of risk-taking in general, right? So he's that kind of kid, temperamentally, as you were saying.

I want you to hear the difference. Don't press the button. Hey, hey, I said don't press the button. Versus, yeah, I'm standing between you and the buttons. I'm not going to let you press those, sweetie. And then he lunges toward them and I say, yeah, I'm not going to let you do that. We can do something else silly and fun when we get to our apartment. Let's go to the throwing the cup example. Hey, don't throw the cup. Keep it on the table. Don't, don't. I see you. Hey, I said don't throw the cup.

versus, oh, I'm keeping my hand on this cup with you because it seems to be hard to not throw it. Once you show me a few times that you can have a cup and not throw it, I'll take away my hand. For now, I'm going to help you drink it. What do you notice is the difference between those? I mean, the first, you know, obvious glaring one is that we're not going to be raising our voices with the boundary setting. So we don't allow ourselves to get to that point. Stop there for a sec, Dana, because that is so critical.

When you set a firm and loving, not just, but as firm, boundary, you help yourself as a parent. Forget your kid. It happens to be good for them, but sometimes I'm like, forget the kids, just for us. It helps us not get to the point where we're so frustrated, where then we end up yelling, and then after we're like, oh, I wish I didn't yell. I don't want to start the day that way. And I often would say that to parents in my practice. I'd say, you're

you're kind of allowing your four-year-old to dictate your mood. Like, you're going to trust your four-year-old to not press the elevator buttons? Like, that just seems like a lot to put into your four-year-old. You're 40, you're 50, you're 35, however old you are. Let's take control over our mood, over our reactivity.

So I think you're right. That's one big difference. Another, to me, big difference is starting with just clarity of our role. Like if I want my kid to not do something, I have to be sure my kid can't do something. Again, I would never say to my kid, hey, if they were kind of impulsive, hey, don't run into the street. I'd probably just walk kind of to the side of them to make sure they didn't.

run into the street. And so let's go over those two examples with the doorbell. Hey, don't ring the doorbell again. Hey, don't. Hey, hey, hey, I said don't ring the doorbell. Oh, right. And then we think my kid's so defiant. He did the opposite. What would be a way to set the boundary earlier so you don't get to that point? Yeah, hold his hand on the way up to the doorbell and be on the side of the doorbell so that he is not

able to ring the doorbell. So kind of manage that from the beginning. Yes. And look, and I want to be honest because parents also listening are like, oh, that seems like a lot of work. Like it can be work. You have to be a little more mindful of it. And then it can feel sometimes like I just wish my four-year-old wouldn't do it. Like I wish I didn't have to. But when it comes to boundaries, we have to be a boundary for a kid.

before they can be that boundary for themselves. And what do I mean by a boundary? We all have urges to do ridiculous things. Like, if I really think about it, I would like to press all the elevator buttons. Like, it would just be funny. And as adults, we've learned to have an urge or have a funny thought. Like, it would be pretty funny if I took my cup and spilled water all over my husband. Like, I might have that thought, and then I say to myself, Becky, I'm not going to do that. And so that's a way of controlling my urge. Or in some ways, I have an urge, and then I put my own boundary around it.

Before kids can put their own boundary around an urge, they actually have to experience over and over and over their urge being met with their parents' boundary. And then what their body learns is I have an urge and I remember a boundary. An urge, I remember a boundary. An urge, I remember a boundary. And then the urge and boundary kind of get close enough in time and space in their body's circuit that then they can be their own boundary. And then you can say, hey, let's not ring the doorbell more than once. And it's not that they're now listening to you.

It looks like listening on the surface, but what's really happened in their body is they've learned the association between having an urge and not acting on an urge because now they can be their own boundary. And so, and you can add some levity to this, right? Yeah, I'm going to hold your hand as we walk up. And I know kids too. Like your four-year-old is not going to say, mom, thank you for being such a sturdy leader. You knew I'd press it too many times and I really appreciate it.

all the work you're putting in. No, he's not going to say that. He's going to say, let go of my hand, right? And you can add some fun. Hey, let's spin around in a circle. Hey, let's wave our arms up and down. Hey, let's jump up and down five times and see if then someone opens the door, right? So there can be a fun element. Or you could just say, I know you don't want me to hold your hand. Listen, sweetie, until you show me.

that you're able to walk near a door and not press the doorbell a billion times, I am going to hold your hand, not because you're in trouble, not because you're a bad kid, because actually my number one job is to help kind of keep you safe and make good decisions. And right now that looks like keeping you further away from the doorbell. Like there's kind of very matter of fact, but I'm not frustrated because I haven't let myself get frustrated. I'm not frustrated.

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I hope you check out the same set of workshops I ended up recommending to Dana when we spoke after the recording. In fact, maybe you'll end up finding each other on the platform and checking them out together.

My two cents are to start with the listening workshop, which will increase cooperation across the board. And then check out the problem behaviors workshop, which will give you a ton of, oh, I've never tried that before, strategies to reduce acting out, defiance, hitting, rudeness, all of it. You can find them at goodinside.com or by following the link in show notes.

I think part of the issue for me also in why maybe my boundaries have become more self-conscious, I don't know if that's the correct term, is I, and this is maybe specific to me, I don't know how useful this is, but

I feel like I'm the only one in the household that keeps boundaries. My husband comes from a permissive kind of background and he tries, but it's a lot of not keeping boundaries on his end. And so that's also, I think, part of the story for me and part of why I reached out is because if I'm the one constantly making the boundaries, I feel like my son is associating me with like

the cop in the household. And I, and I think it's kind of, I don't know. I, at least I fear it's damaging our relationship. And that, yeah, that's the other concern. So I'm so glad you voiced that. And no way are you alone in feeling like I'm the only one who, and why do I feel like I'm putting in this effort to hold boundaries and then deal with the fallout and

And it's exhausting. I mean, it's exhausting, period. And it's definitely exhausting. And it can build resentment also if you're like, I also feel like I'm alone in that. So I have a couple thoughts about that. First of all, and my kids are 5, 8, and 11, right? And what I would say in my relationship with my kids is setting boundaries and tolerating the feelings they have because I've set boundaries, I really believe is the biggest relationship strengthener I've ever had with them.

There's no reward for that in the moment. That's what I'm saying. Our kids aren't saying, oh, mom, I love you so much. Thank you for not letting me ring the doorbell. But if you think about yourself, Dana, right? If you think about yourself at a party, okay? And you're at a cocktail party and you're going around, I don't know, you go to every table and you take the glasses and throw them on the floor and smash them. And you're going to everyone you know and say nasty things to them. I hope you get hurt and nobody likes you, okay? And then picture your partner, okay? Watching you do that.

and how you feel about them later. And then in a different scenario, imagine your partner, even if they have to like kind of picking you up and kind of saying like, we're going in the car, I'm buckling you in. I'm not going to let you kind of destroy the party and yourself. And of course, in the moment, you wouldn't say thank you. You'd probably be like, get off of me. You're like, why are you doing this? But I know maybe I can just speak for myself. I feel like when I came down from that moment, from whatever was going on,

I'd feel really grateful that my partner kind of like stopped me from doing something that was really out of control. And even if it seemed enjoyable in the moment, definitely was from a dysregulated place. What do you think for you? Yeah, yeah, of course. I'd feel appreciative that that person had like my best, my best interest at heart in, you know, in the long term. Yeah, so if you frame it that way, then yeah.

That helps ease some of my anxiety, I think, around the relationship. And look, there's a difference between boundaries and control, right? Like to me, setting a boundary, I always think about this line. And I think I've said it to my kids so many times just to remind myself, like my number one job is to keep you safe. I always say that. And they always say that. They're like, what's mommy's number one job? And she always say, to keep me safe. And I think about safety emotionally and physically.

But if I think about, I don't know, my kid, which is true, my youngest wants to go to bed every night in some like full out sports gear, okay? Not a helmet, but like a sports outfit, not pajamas. I'm not like exerting a boundary there. Like there's no, to me, there's no safety concern. If I think about my child,

Let's even say this, never cleaning up because that was the other exam. Obviously, there's no threat to having a messy house. But if you think about emotional safety, at the end of the day, cleaning up is about kind of taking care of your stuff. It's also about just doing something that's unenjoyable for long-term gain, which I personally think kids just have to do to grow up to be good people. Like, you just have to sometimes do unenjoyable tasks for the benefit of yourself and your relationships. And so...

helping my kid learn the skills to clean up, even when they seem to not want to, I actually do think that falls in kind of general kind of, quote, emotional safety because it helps a kid relate to their frustration. But as you reflect on those boundaries, I think it's helpful for you to kind of see, okay, where am I really doing this from a place of helping my kid?

And where might I be doing this to ease my own anxiety or, you know, more from a place of control? And probably we want to definitely do the former and probably ease up on the latter. And I think our kids feel the difference when I say, and I do this to my kids too, you have to clean up right now because I'm like looking at this room and, you know, and they're like, I'm going to take a shower. I'm like, no, clean up. That's just my own anxiety, like vomiting on my kids.

But when I say, look, we talked about cleaning up the room before you guys went to bed. And, you know, whatever it is. And, like, we have to get that done. Let's think about a fun way to do it. But taking care of our stuff is really important. And if you don't end up cleaning up, sweetie, I probably will put a lot of those toys away tomorrow because it's just not in line with the way we play. Now let's figure out a way to get this done and have it fun and have some music, et cetera. So when you think about your relationship with your kids—

I think that that fork really, really makes a difference. Like, yes, nobody loves when our own anxiety is being played out in our kid. But setting boundaries is as important to your relationship with your kid as validating their feelings. It's a form of connection. That's really fantastic to hear it in kind of that pill form. I appreciate that.

And the last thing I'll say, Dana, on that before we kind of get back to this example, because I think there's more to say there, is this is, I think, a really important conversation for anyone to have, especially if they have a partner or a co-parent, to say, hey—

Look, we're on the same team. This is not a blaming conversation. I do feel like we sometimes fall into the roles of like good cop, bad cop. Like you're the fun parent. You're the like, oh, mommy's, you know, a little anxious. Let's just have fun. And then that leaves me sometimes as a little bit of bad cop, like laying down the rules. And I have found that one of the most kind of powerful and kind of fun exercises to do around this

is to say to a partner after that, look, one of the things I think that could be interesting today is let's take reverse rules just for today. I'm going to be no rules apply, ice cream for breakfast, nothing has to be cleaned up because I'm sure you would like me to loosen up sometimes. One of the things that allow me to loosen up today is if I know you are kind of owning that like some things have to get done in a certain way once in a while part.

And so let's change it up. It'll give us each a chance to kind of experiment with the role the other one usually takes. And then tonight we can kind of talk about it and see where we want to go from there. Right? And so there's no blame. There's no shame. There's no like, you need to do this. You're not a good parent. There's actually like a little bit of a game around it.

Because I'm sure your partner would love you at some times to have, quote, fewer boundaries, and you would love your partner to have more boundaries. And so reversing that allows kind of the system to loosen up a little bit. Okay, the other thing I want to make sure we get to are these words. Like when our kid says to us, like, well, I want my parents to be upset. Or, well, I want to make you annoyed. Like what's really going on there?

And so walk me through this, and you be—we're going to reverse roles for a sec here, okay? So let's say I always take out the garbage, okay, in my house. And I feel kind of annoyed about it, or I feel resentful, right?

And, you know, my partner says something to me like, you didn't take out the trash. You know, like I'm annoyed, you know? And if I say to him, well, I want you to be annoyed. I want you to be annoyed. What am I really saying? I'm frustrated with this dynamic. Yeah. I think that's right. I'm frustrated. There's no one right answer. I think another thing I'm brainstorming is, well, I want you to feel how I feel all the time. Yeah.

Like, I always go there, and I'm annoyed. And maybe if you feel the same way I feel, you'll understand. I think about this especially with kids because, I mean, honestly, I think adults do this too. Feelings are so confusing. Like, if you fall and scrape your knee and you're in pain,

You see blood. Someone else sees blood. They're like, oh my goodness, Dana, you're hurt. Like, it seems real. And even if you don't have blood, like saying to someone, well, I skinned my knee, or they'd be like, oh, you okay? Right? Like, there's this acceptance of realness of physical pain. Feelings are so confusing. And I think for kids especially, and this is all unconscious, they often kind of think, well, unless someone else feels...

the same way I feel, they won't, like, believe that my feeling is real. When you skin your knee, you don't need your partner to, like, skin their knee. Like, you kind of know, like, they get it. Like, they know it hurts. And so to think about your son, who's still so young, learning about feelings. Oh, your parents are going to be annoyed if you don't clean up your toys. And him saying, well, I want them to be annoyed.

Like, I wonder if he's saying, like you said, well, I'm annoyed because I don't want to do it. But also, they won't understand, like, how hard it is to be a four-year-old who wants to play and has to actually clean up. They won't actually understand how hard that is unless they feel the exact same way. So I want them to feel upset, not because I'm a sociopath, okay? Almost because it's a very unsophisticated attempt at gaining empathy. Mm-hmm.

That makes me sad because I feel like I should have allowed space for him to get that empathy in a different way. Maybe I pushed him in that direction. I hear that, and I mean this. I don't think—you are such a wonderfully thoughtful, reflective parent. Your child is in great hands. I think often a skill we have to build with kids isn't a skill that comes naturally, and it's often not a skill our parents had with us, so it's extra hard to learn is—

I hear my child's words, but like, what are they really saying? And I'm sure you have this with your partner in your hardest moments, right? Like often, even as adults, we say to someone like, you're never home. You're always working. And we really mean, I miss you.

So us adults have a hard time translating. So of course it's hard to do it with our kids too. But I think when our kids say this, I want you to be upset, they mean I'm upset. They mean I want you to feel how I feel, just so you understand. I also feel sometimes in these situations, kids are saying, I want to feel powerful. Because as a kid, I feel so controlled and so not powerful so much that

That when I want to ring the doorbell over and over and I watch you get annoyed, it's not because, again, there's something wrong with me. But it's one way where I kind of know I'm my own person. I kind of do feel big and powerful because, wow, just like ringing the doorbell seems to make my mom very, very upset. Like, I don't have the opportunity to be so impactful that often. And I think those three translations for your son will be really helpful. Like, the first one, just, I am feeling...

the same way he says he wants you to feel. Second, this is a very unsophisticated way of trying to be believed or gain empathy. And I'm looking to feel powerful. And if we think about those three things, we can even go further, Dana, because my kids have said these things too. A line that I think is really helpful in those situations to come back with, like, well, I want you to feel upset, is even just saying, like, I know how upset you are, and I believe it.

even if I don't feel it myself. I don't have to feel as mad as you feel for me to know that you're mad is very real. I believe it. And when he's older and he graduates, which he will, to, I hate you.

You're the worst mom in the world when you just say to him, like, sorry, I just said you can't have 401 cookies. Like, you literally just had 400, right? And he's like, I hate you. You're the worst mom in the world. To really imagine he is so upset and he's really saying to you, do you believe how upsetting this is to me? Do I have to say something that's a dagger to your heart?

That feels the same way to you as it feels like a dagger to my heart when you say I can't have this cookie, which it might to a six-year-old. So I think that's just always useful. And then on the powerful front,

When my kid is in that stage of it seems like they're saying no or kind of, quote, defying me over and over, number one, I'll go to the boundaries. Can I set a boundary sooner? But I always feel like my kid is kind of saying, like, I am begging to feel powerful and impactful in this world. And if you don't give me other opportunities, I'm just going to find it at, like, really inopportune moments, like checking out at a grocery store or ringing doorbells. And so I don't know if you're in our membership. Are you in the Good Inside membership? No.

No, not yet. Okay, so one of my favorite kind of short videos there is called the Urine Charge Game, probably one of the ones I reference the most, and I'll give you a preview of it, okay? The Urine Charge Game is like this, and I truly think every kid could benefit from it. So everyone listening, let's all do this with our kids today, okay? And then the day after, we're all going to be like, wow, why is everything good in the world? Why are there rainbows and butterflies and unicorns? So this is how it goes. You go up to your child and you say, hey, you know what I'm thinking about?

Like, it's really annoying sometimes to be a kid. It can probably feel like, mom's telling me to do this, and then she's telling me to do this, and I have to get dressed, and I have to get my socks on, and I have to leave the house, and now I have to be done at screen time. Oh, so annoying, right? It can feel like adults are always in charge. Well, I'm going to set a timer, and for the next five minutes, you're in charge. You're in charge. Now, there's rules.

I'm not going to buy anything. And let me just say, Dana, I came up with these rules the hard way, okay, from my own experience with my kids. I'm not going to eat anything, okay, the disgusting things my kids have made, you know, and I'm like, no, no, no. And I'm not going to do anything dangerous. No buying, no eating, and nothing dangerous. But besides that, if you tell me to do something,

I have to do it. And you can get your kid started. So I might say, listen, just please don't tell me to walk backward. Please. And if your son is like a normal child, what's he going to say? Go ahead. Walk backwards. Walk back. And I'll be like, no, you did not. You did not just say that. And then, oh, I don't want to listen, but I guess I will.

Right? And you can see how you're kind of building the skill our kid will need. And then I'd walk backwards. I'd, quote, bump into a, ow, ow, I hit my elbow. I hope, please, please just don't make me hop on one foot. Please don't make me hop. And then he's going to say hop on one foot. And the whole thing should be filled with laughter and you should resist.

Because that's what kids do all the time, right? Resist, model, then maybe cooperating, be funny about it. And I can still remember one time where one of my kids said, take a shower. And I had just blow-dried my hair that morning, which like took 20 minutes. And literally, I was like—

Like, no, no. I was like, anything, anything. I just, just, I just did that. And the visceral experience, I can still feel the memory, okay, of that moment. And how much I really didn't want to shower.

And I really mean this. Like, every time I ask my kid to do something they don't want to do, I feel like that memory comes back a little bit of just how annoying it is to be told you have to do something when you don't want to do it.

And so, number one, the You're in Charge game helps cooperation across the board. And I won't be surprised if he's like, can we play this tomorrow and tomorrow and play it, you know, because he's saying I need to feel powerful and in control. But I also think as a parent, it really gives you an understanding, like in your body, of how annoying it is to be dictated to. And so I think he's going to really like that. What do you think?

No, I think that that's going to make his day. I'm going to try that as soon as I get home. Yeah, that's great. I guess if I have time for like one last question, just really quickly, like, is there anything you recommend in doing some damage control? Like, because I've been doing this wrong. How do I, you know, kind of reset with him? Like, I really feel like we've just gotten into these tropes. I literally say some of the same things over and over, you know, so how do I make him feel that,

you're not a defiant kid and you know just damage control yeah yeah so I'm gonna I often think that a question we ask is like a path we walk down with someone and so I don't want to walk down the path of you're doing something wrong I don't think that's fair to you I don't so I'm gonna I'm gonna walk down a different path I'm gonna upgrade our path to how do I repair and use this to kind of reconnect and move forward in a different way

So what I would say to him even today is just, you know what? I had a really interesting conversation with someone. You can say my name. You can say she's a feelings doctor. That's what my kids always call me. And a couple of things came up. First of all, let me just tell you, you're a good kid. I know sometimes I've been saying, you never listen. You never listen. You know what? You're a good kid who sometimes has a hard time. And here's a secret.

Listening is just hard. It's just hard. No one loves to listen all the time. You're a good kid. That's number one. Number two, sometimes I ask you to do something. That's like too hard for a four-year-old to do. And I don't kind of help you cooperate.

Which leads to moments where I end up yelling and saying, you're not cooperating. Now, meanwhile, a lot of parents might think, like, my four-year-old's going to be tuning out. It's okay. They still hear it. They don't have to say back, thank you for the profound repair for it to really impact them. And either way, it gets you in a better mindset. And so you might even say, so there might be moments you notice. And let's say the cleaning up is a good example. Where instead of saying, we have to clean up before you get another toy. No, don't take it out. No, don't take it out. I'm actually going to stand in front of the closet.

Not because you're in trouble, but because not letting you into the closet where the toys are is actually going to make it easier for us to clean up. And we're going to do it in a fun way. So you might notice that little difference. And then the last thing I'd say, Dana, is just, you know, being a parent is tricky. And just like you're learning things, I'm learning things too. And one of the things I'm really learning

is how to kind of stay close and connected to you and help you when you're having a hard time. And so I feel like we're going to be able to deal with those situations in a way that feels better to both of us. And I'm kind of excited about this next stage. He will definitely look at you and say, can I watch that show now?

And you're going to be like, wow, did that even land? But it did land. It's not over their head. I always think if my husband said a lot of kind of meaningful, poignant things to me, I might say to him now that I'm an adult, hey, I need a second to process, or I don't know if I can respond right now. Let me sit on that. Kids don't say that. They're not going to say, I need a second to process. They end up saying something else, but they feel the repair. They do. I'm 100% sure of it.

Thank you. That is, I'm going to re-listen to this and write these down and put them as mantras. I appreciate it. And I mean, that's like more than anything. I am very like struck by your openness and reflection and insight. And I mean, that's like, I hope you allow yourself to be struck by that as well. I appreciate that. I'm doing the best I can imperfectly. That's all any of us are doing. Don't be fooled.

Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com slash podcast. You could also write me at podcast at goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. And parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected.

I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knatt, and Kristen Muller.

I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.