The Harris Campaign's Got Jokes, Tubi's Taking Over, and Mike Birbiglia's Our Co-Host
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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. As Scott Free August rolls on, we've got another amazing guest co-host, one of my favorite people, comedian Mike Birbiglio. Mike, hi. How you doing? I'm so honored to be here. I can't believe it. I'm a Pivot head. You are a Pivot head. People don't realize how many Pivot heads we have. We have them everywhere. Your wife said to me this week, because I asked her for advice. Yeah. Amanda, I go, what did you have advice for doing the show?

She goes, just listen to a couple episodes. You'll get a feel for it. I go, I've listened to a hundred episodes. And you still don't have a feel for it? No, no. I'm worried. I'm intimidated by both you and Scott. Oh, well, Scott's not here. He's somewhere in Nantucket. I'm actually in Martha's Vineyard. Oh, that's nice. With my four children and Amanda also. Oh, that's very nice. Yeah, they went to the county fair today to keep the house quiet because they're very loud, all four of them together. It's like a herd of thundering elephants. So are you going on vacation this summer?

Well, a very unique life experience. We went to Rome and I met the Pope. Yes, that. I heard about that. Which is a very strange experience with Stephen Colbert and Chris Rock and a bunch of comedians. And then, yeah, we've been lucky enough to go to Long Island and go to the beach. So that's been great. Oh, good. Zeroing on the Pope thing. Explain what happened with the Pope. The Pope?

The Pope is interesting because he's... Okay. Look. I would assume so. I got a call from Jim Gaffigan in May and basically said, the Pope wants to talk to some American comedians and you're on the list, blah, blah, blah.

And I was very reluctant. I was raised Catholic in the 80s. This is the spotlight era. You know, it's like not exactly great stuff. But the more I researched on this pope, he's pretty good compared to the other popes. You know what I mean? Well, it's a low bar, but go ahead. Well, it's just one of those things. It's like he blesses gay couples. He welcomes divorced couples back into the church. All these things you go...

Oh, the other popes didn't do that? All right. Well, incremental progress here. Yeah, they didn't. So you went? So I went and he gave a speech. It was funny because he gave a speech to a bunch of comedians about...

which I thought was odd. It was like me going to NASA and being like, let me tell you a few things about rockets. You should fly them and maybe make them, but first make them and then fly them. Was it funny? It was not funny per se, but it was compelling and it was sweet. He really believes, you know, he believes in the power of comedy uniting people, humor uniting people. And,

And I believe in that, too. And so I was I was very moved by it, even though, again, like my my my feeling about the Catholic Church is very complicated. But you were in the Sistine Chapel, right? Yeah, I went to Sistine Chapel. The speech was in one of the salas. It was one of the side rooms that was gorgeous. But yeah, I went to Sistine Chapel and yeah, the whole thing. And you went with what Jim Gaffigan. Who else was there? Chris Rock. Jim Gaffigan, Stephen Colbert.

Chris Rock, you know, like Whoopi Goldberg. It was very interesting. You know, David Sedaris. Julie Louise Dreyfuss went. She told me about it. Yes. Julie Louise Dreyfuss, who I'd never met. And it was an astonishing experience.

I was definitely on the lowest on the list of, but somehow I got, I got this invite and I took my wife and daughter and, you know, it's a weird thing. Cause I, I'm at this point, you saw my show in DC where I talk about, I'm trying to figure out how to raise my daughter and what to teach her about worldview. And I, I'm walking her around Vatican and I'm going like, you know, this is what I was raised in. Uh, I don't necessarily believe in it anymore. You can, um, grandma does, uh,

A lot of this artwork is stolen. You shouldn't steal things. But if you do, don't give it back. You know, that's the lesson of the Vatican. Don't give it back.

But I don't know. Nice. Good parenting. Good parenting. But, you know, you've also had a busy summer. Your new show, Please Stop the Ride, you were nominated for an Emmy and the Pope at the same time, right? I've had a wild summer, yeah. My last show, which you saw at Lincoln Center, called The Old Man in the Pool, was nominated as a Netflix special for comedy writing. And this is new for me. I've never been nominated for an Emmy before.

I'm, this is all, me being in Hollywood or show business at all is a very unique thing. It's not something I'm usually involved with. So I'm very, very honored. And you've been taking your new show, it's called Please Stop This Ride, correct? It's called Please Stop This Ride, yeah. But you had a different name for it, correct? The Good Life is the other title that I'm playing with right now. And I'm filming, I'm actually filming that in March, 2020.

the final version of it for my next special. So I think it's going to be called The Good Life. It's a lot about like, what do I teach my daughter? And then in relation to like what I've learned from my parents and my complicated relationship, you and I have talked about this. You came to the show in D.C. and we went out afterwards and we talked about our parents and the challenges of having parents who have entirely different views of politics in the world and how you love them, but you also feel like...

Sometimes it's a very challenging thing to even have these conversations about. Probably the topics we'll talk about today. Exactly. The parts about your dad were very moving, especially in your relationship with him. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, I think I talk about how my dad... I don't think I even say it outright, but I believe he voted for Trump. I mean, we never talk about it overtly, but I feel like the writing is on the wall in the conversations. And ultimately, you talk about how...

All you can do is express kindness and love to people who have loved you. And that's all we can do. And that's sort of, you know, I say in the show, that's the good life. That's all you can do. Yes, that is correct. It's a wonderful show, by the way. And also, Old Man in the Pool. So who are you up against for the Emmy? Alex Edelman, right? Alex Edelman's in there. He mentioned it to me. He texted me. He's like, why am I not on your show?

Are you serious? He's teasing. Yeah, no, Alex is great. Just for Us was on Broadway. And then Jacqueline Novak's was off Broadway, Get On Your Knees. And I was actually a producer on both of those shows, which is really cool. And so it'll be...

you know, among friends. I'm rooting for everybody. I'm rooting for everyone and more myself. You see, I would say I want to win it. I will win it. I do want to win it. I do want to win it, but I also feel like with my luck, I don't think I will. Oh, you will. I think you will. And then Jimmy Kimmel for the Oscars and then John Early, who was my brother in the Taylor Swift video for Antihero. Oh.

Wow. We play brothers. We play these outrageous brothers with wigs and all this whole stuff. I recall. Do you get people coming up to you? Yeah, sometimes. Young girls? Like, and give you a bracelet or something? That happens. I mean, I definitely had it when I went. You know, we were lucky enough to take Un

Una, to see Taylor at MetLife in New Jersey in May. And that's the best concert I've ever seen. I mean, I've never seen anything like it. I know. I went to the one in Santa Clara. Well, Scott is a real pill about it, right? On the pivot. On the pivot, he is. He's a pill about a lot of things, you know, you recognize. Particularly Taylor. He just, like, doesn't get it, and he's unwilling to get it. He is. He's gotten better. He's gotten better. It's kind of like...

you know, Kamala Harris, like, which we'll talk about. He's coming around. You know, he was a Beto guy. And then he was a, he's always the wrong person. He always picks the wrong political figure. And he's often like, doesn't want to give Taylor her props. He just, it annoys him, I think, that she's so enormously creatively successful, financially successful, social successful, you know, I don't know. Who knows? And for that matter, astonishingly talented just as a director. She directed the music video. She did. She does a lot of

videos. And she's unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, she's very funny in that. The whole thing is really the cat. The fact that she's left with the cat, that was my favorite part. But we've got a lot to get today, including the role of comedy. We're going to pull on your, your, your, your,

expertise on that. Starbucks ordering up a new CEO and a free streaming service is taking on some of the biggest players in the game. But first, the United Auto Workers Union is filing charges against former President Donald Trump and Elon Musk after their conversation on X. During the chat, Trump praised Musk for his anti-union stances, calling him the cutter. I don't know how he came up with that. Let's listen to what inspired the charges. Well, you, you're the greatest cutter. I mean, I look at what you do. You walk in and you just say,

You want to quit? They go on strike. I won't mention the name of the company, but they go on strike and you say, that's OK, you're all gone. Yeah. Well, Trump and Elon have boasted the conversation reached, quote, a billion users. X has not disclosed any monetary information or ad buys surrounding the arrangement with the Trump campaign. Did you listen to it? Have you heard about this? I tried. And? I mean, I genuinely tried because I knew I was coming on here. I find I find Trump to be very hard to listen to. Yeah. He's the person at the party who.

who you would try to get out of the conversation with. Right, correct. I mean, I want to say for the first 15 minutes he talked about the gunshot. Which he wasn't going to talk about again because it was so upsetting. The Daily Show has an amazing piece

where they show him going, I'm not going to talk about this again. And then they super cut of, and they grazed me and I turned. And it's endless. He never stops talking about it. He's like the guy explaining his dreams at a party. You're like, how do I get away from this guy? Did you like Elon at this one? No, I think Elon, I don't know what happened to Elon. I don't know. Because he used to be anti-Trump.

I want to say in 2016, he was he said things that were I feel like one can't take back about Trump. Well, you can you can become vice president. Call him Hitler. Yeah, exactly. But I just feel like it's so he is so I don't know. He's so plaintiff.

to Trump. It's... Yeah. The giggle there just got me. The giggle and the slurring was really disturbing to me on many levels. I don't know why I focused in on those. It's just so strange. And then I just think like the union thing is something that I think Silicon Valley has to deal with in general. I deal with it all the time because I tour, you know, 50 cities a year. And so I'm in Ubers all the time. I talk to Uber drivers endlessly. And Uber drivers are

have had their percentage of what they're making go down incrementally over the last four years. And they all tell me they cannot get by on what they're making through Uber. And they used to love Uber.

And I just think Uber has to deal with that. And I don't, I'm not on the inside. I know that there's a lot of factors. It's complicated, but I do think they have to deal with that. The most virulently anti-union company is Tesla. That is 100% true. You know, it's interesting that, you know, I think one of the things that he's mad about

stems from Biden not inviting him to an electric vehicle summit that he had at the White House because he's anti-union. He couldn't, right? And so that really started Elon down the path of hating Biden. I swear, he called me about it six times. Oh, wow. And I was like, calm down, you know, slow your roll, fella. It was odd and strange because he was, I have to say, called me quite a lot about Trump and how much he hated him.

Which was interesting. But whatever, we change. I mean, the Excess Space started out about 45 minutes late for people who don't know due to technical difficulties, which Musk blamed on an attack. The Harris campaign wasted no time making fun of the situation, putting out a statement saying Trump's entire campaign is in the service of people like Elon Musk and himself, self-obsessed rich guys who will sell out the middle class and who cannot run a live stream in the year 2024.

Also, the campaign, which is doing really well, has put out a statement. I don't know who's doing their social media saying it's been zero days since J.D. Vance insulted women across the country. So talk about the Harris campaign. It's funny. They're funny. What do you think about their humor? Does it land? It's riding the right line. Tell me how. So I think.

In comedy, typically a joke has a setup and a punchline. And a setup is something that we all agree to be true. And the punchline is a left turn that we don't see coming. And I think the problem with political comedy in everything year 2016 on is that we don't all agree on what is true. And so, in other words, if there are no setups, there can be no punchlines.

Or I should say, it's very hard to come by a punchline. So I think that the wrong move comedically with with the Trump folks is to say things that the liberal media, which they believe is liberal and biased and is not giving them the truth about Donald Trump, is they don't buy it. And so it can't be a setup. Right. So.

So in other words, like if you bring up the lawsuits a lot, they'll go, well, that's just a hit job. The lawsuits are a hit job, whatever. Right. And right. Witch hunt. Is it witch hunt? Right. However, I just think there's a few vulnerabilities in the Trump universe, which is.

We all know he inherited $400 million, right? We all saw with our own eyes that there were tech glitches in the Zoom thing or, you know, whatever the Elon thing is.

And Twitter, the X thing, as much as it is, as as Kamala's team can play in the moment with things that we all can see with our own eyes. I think that's going to be a winning strategy. I think the other thing is we can't like I think you cannot make fun of Trump's voters.

because, you know, you have family who are Trump voters. I have family who are... They have no sense of humor, is my impression. Well, yeah, I mean, no sense of humor is one thing, but the other thing is...

They're smart. My dad's a doctor who has a law degree. He's not unintelligent. So if you just insult his him over and over again, you're not going to get anywhere. So I think like, you know, if you look at all the zingers, the famous zingers in history in the debates, it's these really light touches.

It's like that Bush-Gore moment where Gore walks too close to Bush Jr. And then Bush sort of steps away. And you kind of go like, I know what he means. That's a human moment. Right. Or I don't want to take advantage of my age. Reagan was quite good at it. Yes. There you go again. The Reagan line. And I think as much as Kamala can be.

be in the moment because she's extraordinarily funny. She's extraordinarily... I mean, her laugh is infectious. I mean, it's hilarious that Trump has gone after her laugh because you go, no, no, you moron. People like when people laugh. They do. It's endearing. They've turned it into something lovely, actually, which I think is interesting. Yeah, I think they're on the right path. I think the key is... I think there's a famous line about dealing with hecklers, which is...

The best thing you can do with a heckler is respond honestly in the moment. When you do these humorous things like J.D. Vance, he's been like a comedy goldmine, correct? Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to make of this guy. I like this book and, you know, in 2017 or whatever it was. And then when I watch J.D. Vance now, I don't feel like I'm watching the same person who wrote that book anymore.

And so I just I think he has a voice problem. I feel like in other words, like I don't understand where he's coming from.

I mean, the weird word has worked beautifully. I'd love to get your sense of why that works, because it's funny. It's actually weird is funny versus deplorables or any other word, say, Hillary used and stuff, which who wasn't funny? There's a big talking point on the right, which is that there's Trump derangement syndrome. What's funny about it is I think it's a good talking point because for them, because I think in 2016 or 15, when he came on the scene, he

it did throw a lot of people off. And we were kind of breathless, myself included, on Twitter about every last thing he said. And I think that the only way to deal with him is with facts and composure. And I think that the Harris campaign is doing...

A really good job of that so far. I mean, even like when when when Trump said that sort of whack job thing at the about her not being black or this or that at the Chicago conference.

The Harris campaign wasn't breathless about it. Yeah. Yeah, she handled that well. I think in the debate, if she does, she ignores a lot of his crazy rather than takes the bait, because it's bait is what it is. She'll do much better. Yeah, she seems to have very cool operations, right? Very cool and smooth in a lot of ways. And I think, you know, I've told a lot of people when they didn't like her, I was like,

She really has a great personality if she'd only let it out. And here it is, right? And so people are responding to it. When you have dinner with her or anything else, it's a very different person. I'm going to move on to something else. Starbucks stock is up over 20% after it announced it's stealing Chipotle's CEO, Brian Nicol. Nicol jumped in to save Chipotle in 2018 after multiple food poisoning outbreaks doubling revenue by 2023. The move came as Starbucks faced activist investor campaigns and a period of stock slumps.

What do you think? Burrito bows with coffee? I don't know. You know, I've performed in 48 states in America, and I spent a lot of time in chains like these. These are, this guy's clearly a winner of some kind because these are two of my favorite chains. Right.

They both seem to have good quality control. You know, Chipotle had that E. coli problem years ago, and I thought it was going to sink them. Yeah, I did, too. I think he was part of the reason why they were able to bounce back. He came over from Taco Bell and helped them bounce back from that. I think, look, I mean, I like Starbucks. I think at a certain point...

You got to figure out what your cost ceiling is with those coffees. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. And what affordable way people can get in. I call them a milkshake company. I don't think they're a company. They're like all milkshakes in there. They're a version of a milkshake.

I made this joke recently where it's like you go into cafes now, it's like the price of coffee changes in real time. Like I went in, the guy was like, it's $6. I go, what? He goes, $9. I go, what? He goes, $15. I go, what? He goes, we're closed. It's just like...

They have to figure out a way for people to affordably get in and out. And then the other thing is Starbucks, of course, does a great job compared to the other chains with bathrooms. Yeah. And I think that if I were Starbucks, I would have a bathroom team there.

where you have these guys in suits, a couple guys in like a bathroom suit, and they scrub and they have the best bathroom cleaning system. And it becomes universally known the best bathrooms in the chain restaurant business are Starbucks. And I think that that puts more people in. What is the worst bathrooms? Oh, gosh. I mean, the worst bathrooms are really the gas station side of the road. Yeah. Do you drive to each of these places? Oh, yeah, yeah.

I do. Really? Yeah. What? No, I do. I mean, typically I fly and then I try to drive because I can't stand flying. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah, for years I took a tour bus, but it just seems silly at a certain point because it's just me and usually one opening act and maybe a tour manager. A tour

bus. How was that? It was pretty good. You know, it's like a time machine. You fall asleep in a bunk bed and then you wake up in Omaha. It's a strange experience. I will say this, and I know this circles back to the Trump of it all, but it's...

And I've been confounded by the Trump phenomenon since 2015 when he announced. And I travel to all these, you know, in the fall, I'm going to Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee. I go to all the places they talk about all the time of how are they going to get these people. And I always ask the Trump voters who I meet, what do you like about this guy? And I ask it as an open ended question, not in a nonjudgmental way.

And they always say he says how he feels. And I think there's a lesson in that for Democrats, which is I think sometimes Democrats

there's an attempt to thread the needle of the exact talking points so much that you lose the humanity. I think that happened to Hillary in 2016. I think at a certain point she was trying to thread so many needles that you didn't get a sense of who she was after a while. Do you like Tim Walz then? You haven't been traveling since this new phenomenon has happened, which most political pundits are like, we've never seen anything like this. No, no. These numbers movement. I think he seems great. I think he seems authentic. I think...

You know, it was hilarious. The Pod Save America guys had him on before he was chosen. And he and Tommy Vitor were talking about

football and it was hilarious because it was just like watching two jocks talk about high school football and you go, oh, it's the same thing I'm talking about with authenticity. You just go, yeah, this guy was a high school football coach. This is not bullshit. This is a real thing. Right. Yeah, he's very appealing. And they're trying very hard to slag him, but he doesn't seem to take a slag. No. He's always like, I'm a monster. I gave them lunch. What? Like,

Rather than a socialist, you know, they were trying to accuse him of being a socialist for giving free lunches to people. Yeah, I think he's the opposite of J.D. Vance in that sense. They think J.D. Vance, he's just, I can't get a read on this guy. He's rich, you know, he's very rich and he has crypto. That's all you need to know. Yeah, that's all you need to know. If you want to know anything. All right, Mike, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the latest push to restrict cell phones in schools. And Mike will answer some listener questions that came in just for him.

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Mike, we're back. California Governor Gavin Newsom is urging schools in his state to restrict the use of cell phones in classrooms. Newsom wrote a letter to school districts saying officials should act now, citing the risks of distraction as well as social media pressures. At least eight states have passed laws, issued orders or adopted rules this year to curb phone use among students during school hours.

72% of high school teachers cite cell phones as a major distraction in the classroom, according to Pew Research. This is kind of obvious. Most parents who support banning phones in class say they should be allowed at other times of the day, according to a poll from the National Parents Union. You have a young daughter. I have lots of kids. What do you think of these cell phone bans? Because a lot of them are using yonder pouches that you see at concerts and comedy shows to lock up phones. You

We didn't do a yonder at your show, I think. Yeah, I haven't really gotten into it. But I think it's a great, I think it's about time they banned the phones in schools. I think it's madness that we haven't been hipper to this sooner. I think it's one of those things where, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, because you know this better than I do, but I think Steve Jobs and Bill Gates both didn't let their kids use phones.

Right. And to me, that's that's the instruction manual right there. You go, oh, the people who basically made this technology aren't letting their kids. Yeah. Game over. I don't don't do it. I wouldn't do it. What is your daughter? How what grade is she in? She's going into fourth grade. They don't bring phones. She doesn't have a phone. No, no. And there's a big, you know, in Brooklyn where I live, like it's.

There's a big push to do this thing like wait until eighth grade, essentially, to let kids have phones. And some of the schools also already just don't allow phones or they do yonder pouches or some variation when kids come in. I mean, it's this crazy thing where you just go...

It's this technology where you take essentially a forklift and you shrink it into a thing you can put in your pocket. And we're going, yeah, kids can bring that to school. Like, it doesn't make any sense. It's extraordinary. This summer, this is an experiment I did, and I recommend it to other people as well, especially artists. You know, on my podcast, Working It Out, we talk extensively about artistic process and how to augment it. For me... It's a great podcast, by the way. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

For me, I did this thing this summer. I've been trying to write my next movie for the last couple of years, and I haven't been able to carve out the time. I think part of it is because I have this distraction machine in my pocket. So I said, well, what is the smallest iPhone that I can get? And it was like this iPhone SE. SE, right. It's really small. And I go, okay, it'll just have...

It's basically my wife and daughter will have the number. My parents will have the number. And that's kind of it. And I'll have Uber on it so that I could, if I'm in a jam, I can get where I need to go. And it has been a huge, huge breakthrough for me. I've gotten so much writing done because I don't have Instagram on it. I don't have all the distraction things on it. It's just like one of these things when you have...

The thing pared down, you realize that these iPhones are essentially like Swiss Army knives. And you're like, well, I don't need the toothpick and the bottle opener and the corkscrew. I just need the knife, I think. Right. So what were you wasting your time on Instagram? Like you're just scrolling. Yeah. Infinite scrolling. Instagram, TikTok, which I've basically deleted. I just basically do on my on my laptop now.

And then, yeah, I mean, I just think it's like it's I mean, these look, these machines are brilliant. These iPhones are they're actually too brilliant. They're too good because the things that you can do on them are so exciting that they're distracting us from the actual beauty that's around us. You couldn't write the movie because you had a because you were just I can see that I do it all the time. I'm always looking at news because it's interesting or I'll watch The Daily Show because I don't watch it in real time and watch it in clips.

Or whatever, you know, whatever I happen to be doing. I watch a lot of videos on the phone just for entertainment or to calm down or something. Talk about the creative. How did it not let you do that? It's just endless scrolling, correct? Or endless entertainment? Yeah, because the algorithm is just building. It's every second it is building a playlist of videos that appeal to exactly what you watch, right?

And so for me, it's like it ends up being embarrassing. It ends up being like a lot of self-help stuff, a lot of writing process stuff, a lot of film directors talking about how they made, you know, Godfather 2 or whatever. And it's like if you get fed that for years,

20 minutes, and it's all pretty interesting, you might stay for 60. And if you stay for 60, you might stay for two hours. And then there goes your writing day. So when you went to the SC, you finished the movie? Or was it hard to concentrate again? No, I'm like, I'm halfway through the movie, though. Yeah. The concentration level has...

has changed completely. And I've just been just extraordinarily more productive. I think like, I think I hope what what I iPhone does, and I've heard rumors that this might, they might go to like a flip phone, like an iPhone flip phone kind of thing, which I think would be good, because I think we're at this point where we don't need a better camera.

In the phone. The camera is already unbelievable. Unbelievable. The quality is absurd. It's better than, you know, digital cameras that were, you know, on the market 10 years ago for professionals. So what are we doing at this point? So it's like, I just think...

a better phone and honestly, like a phone that just is less distracting is what, that's what I'm in the market for. Well, actually the rumor is it's going to be thinner. The thinness is going to be like a credit card thinness. Yes. That's what they're going for, I think, in a lot of ways. But I agree with you. It's very, I'm addicted to it. I took Twitter off and that was a huge amount of time, especially angry time. And,

And I still, I like threads though. I do. I find lots of stuff I like to watch. It's mostly videos of comedy or cooking or something like that. I'm curious when you're in your concerts, you, again, you didn't do the Yonder Pouches. Why? Because a lot of comics do. Like every comedy show or music show, they, you put them in there and you either take them with you or you leave them there, which is very upsetting, right, for me. I don't know why I can't separate from a phone. Yeah.

But why don't you do it? And what do you do with audience members who you can visit? You're up there. You can visibly see them on phones, correct? Yeah, that actually does drive me crazy. I usually call it out when it happens. But, you know, I do an announcement at the top of the show. I mean, I'm lucky over the years. I've been on tour for, God, 24 years or something like that. And...

At this point, my audience, they found me either from This American Life or Netflix or Satellite Radio or my own podcast. And it's like,

I like them. A lot of comedians, this is a dirty little secret of comedy, a lot of comedians don't like their audience. Right. Yeah, I can see that. These people are nuts. I'm not sure it's a secret, but go ahead. Yeah. So when I meet fans of mine on the street, I'm generally like, hey, you know, it's a pretty normal conversation. And so if I say to the audience, hey, could you guys shut off your phones? Yeah.

Usually they do. That's what's so special about theater. We're all in the room at the same time, in the same place. And we have this this 90 minutes together where we're just together. And I think that that's what's so special about just live theater. Yeah, I agree with you. It's really interesting. I had a I don't go to movies as much as I used to in theaters, but I have a like a thing now. If I don't look at the phone, it's a good movie. Right. Oh, yeah. Two texts. It's over.

Like if I get into the too tech zone, it's really, it's not a good movie for me. And I feel terrible doing it actually at the same time I still do it.

Just moving on, have you heard of the streaming service Tubi? It's been described as Netflix geekier, freakier, and totally free rival and has exploded in popularity over the last year. Yeah, I couldn't believe this article yesterday in The Times. It's owned by Fox. Rupert Murdoch, once again, is part of the growing free ad-supported TV fast movement. That's what it's called. It's like old TV, just so you know.

There are no subscription fees and 100% of Tubi's revenues comes from advertising. It has the largest content library of any streamer with 250,000 older movies and TV episodes. Many of a sort of a bargain bin vibe. It's consistently outranking Peacock, Max, Apple TV in total viewing time and drawing even with Disney+. Have you tuned into Tubi?

No, but it's interesting. When I read that article, I was like, oh, that's seemingly what I recall the playbook was of Netflix and it was in the early years. Right. HBO, too, by the way. Oh, HBO. Yes. Like so the way I even found out about Netflix years ago was that one of my specials was just called What I Should Have Said Was Nothing.

appeared on Netflix. It was licensed and I didn't even know it. All of a sudden, people were saying to me, "Oh, I watched what I should have said was nothing on Netflix." I go, "What's Netflix?" And they're like, "Oh, it's a streaming service." And you look on that, and then I would look on Netflix and I would go, "Oh, wow, they have so many comedy specials and shows."

And I think it's a good strategy for Tubi because you look and you go, oh, they have Everybody Hates Chris. Well, that's a great show. You know what I mean? Like, I get that it's not new, but it's really good. Right. Yeah, it's definitely, it brings people in with old shows and things like that. Do you have a favorite old show in general? Oh, gosh. I think Cheers was probably my favorite. I grew up on Cheers.

And I grew up, yeah, I grew up on SNL. How about you? I go way back. I can watch The Brady Bunch any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Oh, wow. I know every episode. But I love finding stuff that I used to watch on these streaming services. That's one of my favorite things, like movies. You know, I'm here in Martha's Vineyard and I'm going to watch The Inkwell tonight, which was a movie that's full of really big stars, actually. And it's about a beach in Martha's Vineyard, Noke Bluff. Yeah.

You know, I like finding really old stuff that reminds me of my youth when I see it again. It's sort of like, I don't know, I kind of like these ideas. Do you have a preferred streaming service these days? Or what's important for comedy? Is it still Netflix now? It used to be HBO, right? Netflix is massive. I mean, Netflix did a really, really smart thing early on, which is they bought up

specials with Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, Jerry Seinfeld, John Mulaney, Amy Schumer, this person. And what happened was the stand-up comedy, people who love stand-up comedy just went to Netflix. So then everyone they made deals with from me on down, they made really good deals for them because we all just wanted to be on the platform.

And so now they've really cornered the market. I mean, I want to say the subscribership of Netflix is...

is a punch that is well above 200 million subscribers. So it's a little bit in comedy right now. It's the only game in town, but also YouTube has really changed the game on comedy specials. Because if you look at like, you know, Shane Gillis, for example, has a YouTube specials filmed at like a comedy club in Austin, Texas with, I would guess like four cameras or something that are the equivalent quality of like a really good iPhone.

has 30 million views. What do you do then? Where do you go? I mean, because Reddit's another place that my kids watch. They watch you on Reddit. I know that. They're like, oh, we saw him on Reddit. I'm like, okay. Oh, wow. Yeah. But when you used to be, the thing was you got a comedy special on HBO, right? And that made you. And

And now it's Netflix. Yeah, no, I mean, now it is a combination of Instagram, YouTube, Netflix, etc. But the other streamers, I think, in my opinion, are well behind. I don't think it's really even close. I mean, 2B, I mean, who knows? 2B has a shot. What do you look for when you're deciding on your comedy show where to put it? You kind of want everyone to see it, right? But you could just put it on YouTube.

YouTube yourself.

I just took a camera crew and I filmed me going back to Walla Walla and talking to the person at the front desk after I jumped to the window, talking to the doctor who put stitches in my legs at the emergency room. And it's great. And we're editing it now. But what's interesting about it is I'm just self-financing it. I hired a crew. I hired a great editor. You know, it's

The affordability of making things at this moment is unlike anything in history. There's this great documentary that during Apocalypse Now, Francis Ford Coppola made this documentary called Hearts of Darkness. It's hard to find, but it's great. And in the closing credits, he talks about, and this is like 70, I'm going to guess 77, right?

He talks about how in the future, everyone will have access to cameras that are as good as the cameras we're working with now. And, you know, basically, like, I want to say he says something like, you know, a 13 year old in her basement in Ohio could make a movie as good as we're making right here. And.

I think we're getting pretty close to that. And I think you can... So what are you going to do with that? That's a great idea. Like, you do a lot of production. People don't realize this, but you produce Alex Adelman. You produce a lot of shows. Yeah. I mean, I just think that the costs are way down. And I think it's... I think YouTube and all the streaming services have democratized entertainment in a way that whenever people ask me, I do Q&As on Working It Out and my podcast sometimes. Whenever people ask me advice, I always just say, make something...

You know, learn from it, get feedback, make something else, get feedback, make something else, because the opportunity is I mean, there's a whole bunch of people who have made these YouTube specials. They're making these specials for, you know, 20, 30, 50 thousand dollars. It's amazing. So what are you going to do with that? I actually don't know yet. We're just editing. It's really interesting footage. I perform videos.

some of the show in Walla Walla. I meet all these people. We're going to intercut it. And it may end up on Netflix. It may end up on YouTube. But we're just sort of taking it as it comes. A lot of times when I'm doing creative stuff, because I was very early to doing stuff myself, right, in journalism, which people pushed up against. And everything I do now is, what do I need you for exactly? Literally, that's the sentence. What do I need you for? No. Like, if I can do it myself or buy it off the shelf or whatever, it's...

I always think, like, why am I paying you this? What is the reason I'm giving you this amount of money? For what? What's my service I'm getting? It's really interesting. And comics have really taken off. Even, you know, people who are sort of tarnished, like Louis C.K., came back through that methodology, right? Like, he found his audience that way. Some comics said to me, he's been stopped. I'm like, it doesn't sound like he's been stopped. He's doing his own thing. Anyway, you don't have to comment on it. No, I think comedians have...

comedians have a one-on-one relationship with their audiences. And if you continue to tour and you continue to create and put out specials, whether it's on YouTube or Netflix,

if you're, if you're funny, people will show up. Yep. 100%. It was so funny. Cause last night, Amanda and I went out for a date and a lesbian came over who was getting married on Saturday. Um, and congratulations to them. Uh, it's Rachel and Maddie, by the way, thank you for coming over. Um, and they're huge fans and they started, it was jokes. And Amanda's like, ah, no one's come up to us today. And then these lesbians came up and they were wonderful. Um,

And then the table next to me had, I was their book and their book club. And they said, oh, they talked to you. Now we're going to talk to you. It was all these older ladies who were wonderful, the book club of Martha's Vineyard or whatever. And they're like, we love your book. And then we took selfies, selfies with everybody. And then I went over to say goodbye to the lesbian couple and say congratulations. And then this table of this woman, Christina, who was with her, this whole gang of people were like, we didn't want to say anything. And Amanda was like, once again, big fan.

It was interesting because I thought it made me think like fans are your fans. You own them now, right? Versus you don't own them. You know what I mean? Like they're your fans versus anything else. I think that social media has and podcasts, the rise of podcasts, which has been in the last decade, has

has created a really intimate relationship with fans. So like there's this famous story in show business, which is that when Bob Hope moved from radio to being a movie star, that people pointed out he wouldn't have been a movie star if he weren't a radio star.

Because there's something he wasn't like this extraordinary looking person. He wasn't he wasn't like a born movie star. And but it's the intimacy of radio. The form is you're in people's ears.

And it's in there's something about it that's very powerful. And I feel like when I've since I've done work since I've created working it out the podcast, I feel like my audience because I work out jokes on the show and then I go out on tour at Cincinnati and and Charlotte and and

People show up and they're like, "Oh, I like how that joke evolved into this other joke." So they're following you. "I like how it started here and it be." Yeah, they're following the process. Right. 100 percent. Both Scott's and my books wouldn't have been as big without the podcast. 100 percent. That's who was at the audience at the shows. It does have this nice live. It's just interesting. I think comics who take advantage of this and it's the perfect actually, comics are the perfect genre to do that more than anything, I think. I don't know.

We have one more thing I want you to comment on. Mark Zuckerberg shared an interesting photo on Instagram. I just sent it to you this week. A seven-foot-tall statue of his wife, Priscilla Chan, in his Instagram caption. Zuckerberg noted he was bringing back the Roman tradition of making sculptures of your wife because, you know, whatever, Mark. Chimed in the comments saying, the more of me, the better, question mark. Obviously, Jeff Bezos put his fiancee on the prow of his giant yacht, his mega yacht.

boobs and all the whole thing. Would your wife approve of this kind of gift? No, no. I mean, it's funny. I texted Amanda this week because, you know, your wife and my wife, they're both poets. And but my but the difference is Jenny is an introvert and Amanda is not an introvert. And and I have a joke in the old man in the pool where I say, Jenny,

Jenny's an introvert and I'm an extrovert. An extrovert is someone who gets energy from being around other people. And an introvert doesn't like you. Or she might like you, but she's going to need me to explain why we're leaving the party. And I think if I made a seven-foot statue of my wife, I think the relationship would be over. Really? It would be the end of the relationship? She does not want a statue of herself. No, no. Yeah, neither does Amanda. I would say she'd be horrified. Horrified. Horrified.

Yeah. I mean, what do you make of these billionaires doing this to their... You know, in this moment of exponentialization of money and of people's presence and fame, I think people have an outsized version of themselves sometimes.

And you see that with Kanye, you see it with Zuckerberg, you see it with Elon, a bunch of these, you know, and they lose they lose a sense of what it, you know, of what is a reasonable thing to do. What would be a positive expression of love?

And then it's very performative, right? It's very performative. I think I'm part of me. I'm like, oh, so what? She likes it. Like, you know what I mean? Part of me is the old Carol, which I'm like, oh, she likes it. It's OK. And part of me is like, it's not for her, is it? It's for you. And for like when Mark puts on the gold chains or the hair or the hydrofoiling, I'm kind of like, oh, good for you. And then I'm like.

What's this? What's happening here? Right? Yeah. What's the most extreme public display of affection you've had with Amanda? Just a picture of us on our first date, maybe.

Oh. That was it. She's not a grand jester kind of gal, right? Yeah. I have rented Delmonico's for you and there's a band. Yeah, I mean, Jenny and I got married at City Hall and we're 16 years in. Amanda and I had a pandemic wedding in Brooklyn in Prospect Park. It was good. Worked out fine. Worked out the kids came. It's great. I love that. Okay, Mike, let's pivot to some listener questions. ♪

We asked our listeners for questions just for you. Let's go through a couple. The first is about something that's been in the news lately. Steve from Threads says, everyone knows Mike loves couches. Maybe he can give us some insight on where you draw the line with that love. For some context, you profess your love of couches in a 2019 special, The New One, which is about your daughter. Let's listen. Couches are humble. They're like, this is about you.

You want to take a nap? Be my guest. You want to have sex with my arm? I'll think about it.

You were early. I was early on this? I think people do have an intimate relationship with their couch. I think this is the most relatable thing about J.D. Vance. I think he should lean into this and say, yes, I do have sex with my couch. I think people will go, okay, I get this guy. You know, it's funny, that special, it's called The New One, and it's all about how I never wanted to have a child and all the reasons why no one should ever want to have a child and why I was right and then ultimately why I was wrong. And what happened was the reason the couch joke...

was that one night I was doing a show at Princeton and it was all mostly students and it didn't have the couch joke in it that you just played. And it was all about having kids. And I've never looked at an audience that has been more disinterested in the topic that I'm discussing. They just had this look of like, we don't know what you're talking about. We don't want to have kids. We don't know what it would mean to have kids, et cetera. And I was like,

I called my director, Seth Barish, who's worked on all of my shows over the years. And I go, I have to come up with some way in for younger audiences. I'm always trying to have my audiences appeal to age 12 to 112. You know what I mean? And I came up with this metaphor and the metaphor was, I love my couch and the couch is the symbol of stability. And just like the thing, just going home to your couch or something about it, it hugs you. It's a bed that hugs you. And I,

And it ended up being like this really real Hallmark thing. And it allowed young audiences to come along for the ride on the show. Yeah, it was great. I remember that. But how did you get to sex with? Sex with a couch is a stretch. I mean, I've never had sex with my couch, but I can't believe it was in there. I had forgotten. I had forgotten. But he had a different version of sex with a couch, not the arm. There was another part of it.

That was his sexual activity. But it didn't happen. No, it didn't happen. It's just rude. But he should lean into it. You think he should lean into it? I think so. Here's what I think. It's interesting because it's not true. Everybody... J.D. Vance did not put anything about having sex on the couch in his book. Let me be clear. But...

But the big but people think he could have. That's the thing, right? Sure. Maybe he didn't, but I feel like he could have. Well, very good for you to be so prescient. Here's another one from Threads. Mike, as a storyteller, what advice do you have for young people in terms of telling good stories?

Specifically, what are your favorite stories to read and what's the key to inspiring people through story? People don't realize comics are storytellers. They really are. And at their very base, I think Scott talks a lot about not comedy, but just in general. So talk a little bit about storytelling. Yeah, it's funny. On the podcast this week, we had Stephen Merchant, who co-created the original Office and X.

And in England, yeah the the original the great office and he and he talks about how he's been telling more stories on stage and we talked about the craft of that and and he was sort of asking like how do you take something that is inherently like maybe a little bit sad or a little bit dramatic and find the comedy in that and I think that the key to stories is telling comedic stories is finding one joke

in it that opens up the audience and tells the audience that you are OK laughing about this thing. And because you're OK with it, they should be OK with it. So years ago, when I was 20, I had bladder cancer and I was like, I want to talk about this on stage, but I don't know. It bums out the audience.

And so I came up with this joke. I say I had bladder tumor when I was 20, but it's funny because I'm a hypochondriac. And I think the funniest thing that can happen to a hypochondriac is you get cancer because it affirms every fear you've ever had in your life. You're like, see, I told you. Remember last week when I thought I had rickets? I was probably right about that, too. There's going to be a lot of changes around here. And what happened with the audience is they started to go, oh, OK, he's telling a funny story. So we should just go with him on it. Right.

Yeah. And so and so, you know, like with with Steven, he had a story that was wild story. He was at Sarah Silverman's party years ago and he accidentally took an edible and he took an edible and he accidentally walked through a window. Wow. He was like, I'm going to go outside and didn't realize that it was a window and he walked through it.

And we were talking through like the mechanics of that. How do you make that a story? And the key thing is he's okay now. Right. You know what I mean? Right. You have to assure the audience that he's okay now. Glass and blood aside. Go ahead. Exactly. Exactly. And what's...

What I always tell people about stories is as long as you have a beginning and most importantly an ending, the audience will stick with you for the middle. Was there one where you told a story where you didn't have them? Because there's a lot of tough stories in this new show. Well, I have a lot of stuff about my dad and about our political...

Right.

Because I'm driving home and I'm realizing my whole life I sort of wanted to be my dad. And at a certain point, I decided I wanted him to be me. Right. That was a great moment. That was a big insight in that show. It was gut punch. It was a gut punch. You do a lot of that, though. You do a lot of the shifting from comedy to something that's very upsetting, right? But then I think it's related to like what...

What were the political climate we're in right now, which is like, I think there's a lot of the extremes of both parties want the other party to be them. And that's never going to happen. People have really widely different takes in this country. And it's just getting to a point where.

We just go we can just go, yeah, this person could be the leader of the country and that would be OK. We don't need the wild extreme on one side. We don't need the wild extreme on the other. We just need someone to kind of right the ship. Yeah. Well, I don't think Trump is that person more and more, especially this week. He's really lost his mind on a lot. It's like he can't be like I used to believe in Trump derangement syndrome. But now I'm like, no, he's really dangerous. Yeah. Yeah.

No, he definitely is, at this point, let him talk. It's definitely a let him talk situation because, man...

It does not make a ton of sense. No. His stuff about Kamala Harris lately is so strange because he's also attracted to her. He doesn't know what to do. Yeah, he said that she looks like Melania a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't know what to do. He's like, oh, no, I'm attracted to her. It's very strange. It's weird. She should get some bodyguards. But let me ask you, what are your favorite stories to read? What do you, in that answer? I, you know, the stuff that makes me laugh hardest is Junkie.

David Sedaris, always. Classic. He's just always so funny. His diaries are hilarious. He published his diaries. Zadie Smith's stuff is always fantastic. I don't know if you ever read this years ago. She wrote this fantastic piece. I know you've written so much brilliant stuff about Silicon Valley over the years. And she also wrote this piece about Zuckerberg that was fantastic.

so dead on about, about. Oh, I have to read it. Yeah, it was in one of her essay books years ago. And it was about how essentially like we live on our phones, we live on our computers and our phones. And the aesthetic of it is essentially Facebook and from a person who has no sense of style. Our style that we are living in virtually is from Mark Zuckerberg, a guy who wanted a date in college.

And so he created this thing and now we live in it. And it's such a brilliant essay. And it really makes you, it really made me think hard, hard on sort of like the missteps that culturally we've made. I do think at the heart, storytelling remains the most important thing to everybody in some fashion. To that point, to yours and Scott's points about storytelling, I think one of the things Kamala...

should really lean into is that she's a self-made person from a self-made family and that he inherited $400 million. And that's not relatable. Inheriting $400 million is not what anybody, nobody has that. Right. Although one might argue he's sort of a poor person's version of a rich person, right? That's right. That's aspirational. I want to be him. It is, yeah, it's aspirational. But I do think the more she tells people

personal stories about herself and her own life, I think the more people will gravitate towards her. Waltz has done a good job of that. She was talking about her time. She worked for McDonald's when she was a teenager. And he goes, do you think Trump could ever make a McFlurry if his life depended on it? That's very good. It was a perfect way to tell it. And everyone was like, it was so specific, McFlurry. Yes.

Like he wouldn't even know how to operate the machine and this and that. So it was a story he was telling about her, right? And insulting him at the same time. It worked really well. I think they're very good at stories, the two of them. I think particularly him. He's a particularly good storyteller. And that's what we like from our politicians in a lot of ways.

Okay, lastly, an ex-user asks, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the worst, how bad are Scott's jokes? Okay, here's what I'll say about Scott's jokes. Scott's jokes are not, they're not jokes. They are fodder for you and Scott

to bounce around your lovable chemistry. I see. And so I enjoy them because he's like everyone's uncle. He's our podcast uncle. He tells these goofy jokes. He knows they're goofy. You make fun of them. You say you're going to get trashed by your friends and your fans. And you do. And it's fun. And I... Rachel, last night, the lesbian was like, the jokes aren't funny.

I was like, thank you. But I think that's what's fun about it. And I think that I think one of the things that's so wonderful about this podcast is that you and Scott just go at these topics in a way that doesn't feel censored.

And it doesn't feel restrained. And I love listening to it. And that's why it's an honor to be here. We do. We do. He does repeat jokes. If he tells that Poland invading Germany thing again, I'm going to fucking kill him. Germany invading Poland. He's got to stop. He's got to get new ones. That's all I got to say. Maybe you can help him. Okay. You can workshop a few with them.

All right. If you've got a question of your own, thank you, listeners, for putting those in for Mike. We've got tons of them, by the way. We'll send them to you. Any you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Mike, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. You have to give us a prediction.

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Offer valid for a limited time. Other fees and terms apply. Okay, Mike, let's hear your prediction. Here's my prediction about the election. I think that, I don't know which way the election goes, but I think that Kamala may end up taking two or three states that we don't even think are in play. I think that she has an appeal that, but I don't even know if she'll win, but I do think she has an appeal that

That crosses that crosses the electoral map in a way that maybe pundits aren't even realizing. Interesting. Why do you think that? Because I think that all I've heard for the last year is people saying we need someone else. All I hear people who vote for Trump, people who voted for Biden. We need somebody else. These people are too old. It's just they're too old.

And and I think she's someone else. And I think that what's going to happen is you might see I don't know. I think you might see an Ohio or an Iowa woman.

Or Florida. Florida is getting closer. Florida is close. It's within five points. And you might see one of those go in a very surprising way. But who knows? I have a lot of Trump relatives who are voting for her. That's good. I know. It's interesting. The first time, they're like, oh, she's kind of appealing. Because I think they're getting a clear view of her versus I think what's happened is Trump has not defined her quickly enough and it's too late.

It's too late now. He is going to have a very hard time. And there's a very short window. I think one of the things, I'll tell you a prediction I have, I'll do it very quickly, is shorter elections, great idea. Great idea. You know? So much better. So much better. Every other country has them. Ours go on for years. It's madness. It's like when they put out Thanksgiving things the day after Thanksgiving. Yeah.

You know, shorter elections is a really good thing for the body politic and for our mental health, I think, you know. Oh, I think absolutely. And by the way, and by the way, I should I should I should point out if people are mad. This is me. This is I'm only talking about politics today because I'm such a big fan of this show. And and I think these are important issues. But I don't I don't do political comedy. You know, you know, I do personal stuff because ultimately I feel like when I tour, I

I want humor to bring people together. I want everyone to laugh, to get away from the stuff we're talking about today.

And that's why I do personal shows. Well, your new show is political because it's about you and your dad. But to me, it's about when you were a kid, not about politics, right? Right. There was a scene, I think, with your dad touching you, right? When you get hurt. Yeah, yeah. But giving me a medical evaluation because he's a doctor. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. Yes. You know, he was being your dad. It was like being a parent. Because we don't hug a lot. Yeah, right. Exactly. So the

politics that you layer on has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with connection, right? To me. I think so. And I think, I honestly think that the thing that I've discovered from touring the country, 48 states over the years, is that we're much, as a country, we're much more alike than different. That's correct. I say that all the time. Anyway.

Mike, thank you so much. Scott and I will be back next week with a brand new episode recorded live from the Democratic National Convention. Just a quick note, because a lot of you have emailed us, our DNC show will not be open to the public.

But it'll be in your podcast feeds on Tuesday. But we will be wandering around Chicago, and I'm going to make Scott do all manner of unnatural things with couches. Maybe we'll go to the Wiener Circle, something like that. You know, the typical Chicago things that we'll be doing. But Mike, thank you so much. And again, let me just be clear, your show was wonderful. I just want to say everyone should watch Mike's shows. Obviously, his show Old Man in the Pool has been nominated for an Emmy.

And his new show, Please Stop the Ride, but it's also called The Good Life, depending on what it's going to be called. Can anyone see you anywhere else with that? I mean, I'm touring 20 cities in the fall. So I'll be in New Jersey. I'll be in Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee. You know, I'm all over the place. I mean, oh, I'm in Charleston, Asheville. I mean, all over the place.

All of it's on Burbigs.com. Thank you. It changes, correct? It changes all the time, you know. And so all of it's on Burbigs.com, which is also where my podcast Working It Out is. Yeah. Working It Out is a wonderful podcast. It's really good about creativity. Anyway, you're a wonderful person. We love you. You've done a wonderful job, by the way. And I may replace Scott with you at some point. Thank you.

Anyway, if I kill him in Chicago, I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Laryn Neyman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Anderdutt engineered this episode. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll see you next time.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business from the DNC. How exciting for us. Mike, thank you again. Oh, my God. Thank you. Mike is also currently doing an auction of a special one of a kind item benefiting the YMCA. You can check it out at CharityBuzz.com slash Mike Birbiglia.

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