Ep. 7: The Red Sowing (with showrunner Ryan Condal) 01:12:00

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- The dragon named Vermithor is the largest in the world. - After Vhagar and perhaps the most fierce. - He's called the Bronze Fury. We'll go to him now. And may the gods bless you. - Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion. - And I am Greta Johnson. Rhaenyra's dragon riding school is in session and it is to die for. - You all signed the release, right? Okay, great. Let's get started.

And today we'll get into all of that, of course, as we dive into the penultimate episode of season two titled The Red Sewing. It was written by David Hancock and directed by Lonnie Perestier. Later on in the podcast, we are going to discuss all of it with our good FOP friend of the pod, House of the Dragon showrunner, Ryan Condal. But beware, there are episode seven spoilers ahead. Please watch episode seven before listening to us, then come back. I'm ready.

Come on! Okay, Jason, let's get a quick recap of the episode before we dive in. Sure. We open on the seashore where Rhaenyra and Syrax come face to face with Adam and Seasmoke. And he makes it clear that he is prepared to loyally serve Rhaenyra and her cause. And Rhaenyra is incredibly stoked that Operation Dragon Seed is back.

on the menu over in King's Landing. Orwyle is tending to Alicent's riot wounds. She tells her sworn sword, Ser Rickard, that she'd like to go camping right now. Okay. Okay.

She goes for a swim. Sir Rickard is like, when are we going back? And Alison is like, I don't know, maybe never. Larys and Jasper the Iron Rod watch Aegon's Kingsguard buddies get fired, get stripped of their cloaks and sent to the wall. And Jasper tells Larys that he's heard some interesting whispers from over on Dragonstone that...

Rhaenyra has maybe found a rider for Seasmoke. They don't know who the rider is, but Larys suggests, you know, maybe keep that one to yourself. News of this rider has Dragonstone all abuzz, but to everyone's surprise, the queen is treating Adam as a honored guest, not a thief. And she insists that he should be taught how to ride a dragon, how to speak High Valyrian. Jace, meanwhile, is furious, fuming.

Rhaenyra catches up with Mysaria and Mysaria says, listen, if you want dragon seeds, if you want Targaryen bastards, I know the place.

In Haranhal, young Lord Oscar arrives with the River Lords. Daemon must win their fealty. Now, Oscar is young, very young, but he's not a pushover. If Daemon wants the Rivermen's swords, Oscar will extract a price. And that price is, Daemon, you have to deliver justice upon your servant, Willem Blackwood, for his war crimes against the Brackens.

Damon, unhappily, but with great speed, dispatches the shocked Will of Blackwood. What?

in the Red Keep. Orwyle is helping King Aegon the Crispy get his steps in. The king is in agony and this regime of intense physical therapy is Larys' idea because he thinks the king needs to get his strength back as quickly as possible because he is in great danger. Back on Dragonstone, Jace gives Rhaenyra absolute hell about the bastards. He drops these people. He calls them mongrels. And

And then he gets into the real depths of it, which is his parentage, the fact that his father is not who they present to the realm, and the fact that everybody whispers about this already. And what happens if one of these bastards then says they want to rule, which is a good point. He's very upset. The bastards arrive on Dragonstone. They include our notables, Hugh and Ulf.

And it's time for the real test. She brings them in to meet Vermithor after giving them a speech in which she says, listen, if we succeed here, there's going to be an end to suffering. There's going to be free hugs, a chicken in every pot, a PlayStation in every living room. It's going to be great. Let's go meet Vermithor, the bronze fury. Vermithor kills so many people. The bronze fury is furious. It's furious. Kills so, so many. But...

He doesn't kill Hugh, who Vermithor seems to like. So Hugh claims Vermithor. And one of the other survivors is Ulf because Silverwing takes a sniff of Ulf and is like, I like your cologne. I like you. You're my guy. What cologne does Ulf wear? Scent of the bastard. Yeah.

We end the episode in King's Landing where the Green Small Council is interrupted by a commotion outside. It's a dragon. Aemond rushes to Vhagar, flies up to meet this dragon, gives pursuit. But within sight of Dragonstone, Aemond turns Vhagar back. Now the Greens know Rhaenyra has dragon riders and Rhaenyra watches Vhagar turn and fly back to the city with a look of surprise.

intense defiance and even hatred on her face. Here we go. Let's get into it, Greta. Okay, is now a good time to admit that until now I kind of thought Hugh and Ulf were the same person. Okay, gosh, where do we even start? I guess with the beginning. Let's listen to this clip of Rainier and Adam talking. This was a fascinating conversation. I may appear lowborn, but I know much and more of service. And if the gods call me to greater things, who am I to refuse her? Stand. Stand.

Yes. Yeah. Why do you think Adam lies about his dad? It's a good question.

I think it's because he wants Corlys to acknowledge him if that's what Corlys wants to do. I think he wants that very badly. And I think he feels that it would be somehow wrong to out Corlys without Corlys making the outreach first. That tracks. Yeah, I think that makes sense.

I completely agree with you. I also just thought this was such a beautiful opening scene. It was gorgeous. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's just like, let's go. I know. I also think in that opening scene, I mean, Emma Darcy always kills it. They are amazing. But the...

various emotions that you're seeing pass over Rainiera's face were incredible. And it reminded me of, there have been a couple of instances in the last couple of episodes where someone says to her, she says a positive thing to someone and they more or less are like, then why do you still look so pissed? Yeah. And this, I think kind of harkens back to that too. Like she's almost smiling and it's really cool to see that too. I thought. I agree. I think that there is a palpable sense of,

from the very first scene of this episode through to the end scene. You know, it's Queen Rhaenyra at the beginning, Queen Rhaenyra at the end. That Rhaenyra is feeling like, here I come. You got your licks in, you got your shots in, it looked bad for us. You were maybe puffing your chest out because you thought we were finished. We're coming for you. But here I come now. And I'm going to rain hell on you. You can feel that from her.

Yeah, it's funny because in the next scene we see at the Black Council, like, not everyone is in agreement with her about this situation being exciting. Let's take a listen to that. The Queen is unharmed. What of the rider? Do we know who he is? He appears to be a shipwright in your employ, Lord Hand. A commoner. With respect to your workers, Lord Corliss, the lowborn cannot go around seizing dragons.

Has the thief been secured? Her grace has commanded that he remain here as a guest. She wishes him to be instructed in the art of dragon riding, and that I should teach him some high Valyrian. The look on Corlys' face is so good. I know, he's like, wait, what? He's like, oh, shit.

Here's the thing about Bart. It's all here's what the problem is. And it's none of here's the solution. He is not solution oriented. You are correct about that. I think that's why you got slapped. Yeah. Yeah. He was just bitching. It's true.

We alluded to it, but we get a lot of the class conflict here. I think that there's a tremendous amount of fear and anxiety about what might happen when we elevate lowborn people this way. And I'm sure he's not the only one. Immediately turns to thievery. This was stealing. You've stolen something. As if you could just like hotwire a dragon. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I don't-- There's no stealing a dragon. That's not the thing that happens for sure. Well, the other thing about this scene is that we learn that Rhaenyra has not shown up to this meeting and instead is relying just on Mysaria's counsel to talk through, like, what the hell just happened. Common Shipwright vows to serve you while your brothers seek to destroy you. The order of things has changed your grace. Why not embrace it?

For twenty years the lords of this realm have been insults at my sons behind my back. Well then, let us raise an army of bastards.

I love that line so much. I love it too. Also worth pointing out that it's not Rhaenyra who comes up with this idea. Mysaria really has to like connect the dots for her. Rhaenyra is still looking in the books and in the scrolls and it's Mysaria laughing at her and being like, no, you need bastards for this. If you want Targaryen blood, here's where to find it. I know where they are. Fascinating. Yeah. Dozens. There are dozens of them. Yeah.

You know, it's interesting because in the book, this plan is framed as kind of more Jace's idea. Like Jace took the reins of this. Yeah. And here has been, you know, I think we're getting the truth of it now, which is...

is that this is Misari and Rhaenyra cooking this up together. Yeah, that's fascinating because Jace seems extremely not supportive of it, which I get. I mean, it's interesting to hear back that clip again. And, you know, Rhaenyra's like, oh, yeah, I have bastard kids. So this is like every, you know, we're raising all boats, essentially. But Jace does not feel that way at all. He, you know, given his own birthright is...

really concerned about just elevating all these folks without any nobility, because then what does that make him? Jace, with these riders, we can end a needless war. I may take my rightful place on my father's throne. And when you die? You are my heir. Did you think I would have dark hair? When you took Harwin Strong into your bed, did you think I might favor him or did it not cross your mind? -Juserys-- -I'm no fool, mother! The proof is here for all to see.

Yet I may argue my legitimacy to succeed you because I have a dragon. And now you say you'll strip that from me too. Yeah. How did you feel about this scene? I was at once repelled by Jace's high-handedness, disregard, arrogance with regards to the people that he's going to rule over one day. And at the same time, I felt tremendous empathy for him. Like,

He really opened up the deepest, most primal existential pain that he has, which is, I know who my dad was. We have to pretend it's not him, and we can never talk about it. And he's gone. What a powerful scene. How did you react to it? It was very vulnerable of Jace. It's also devastating because here he is...

having to uphold these super damaging power structures. But also, I mean, it's kind of like what you've been hinting at all along with the idea of like, okay, if anyone can ride a dragon, then who's deciding who gets to be king? And how arbitrary is all of this? And how much is it all just going to topple? The whole thing is a very elaborate construct. The question is, how much are they...

hoping to profit off of that structure and how much can they crumble it you know i mean that's a fine line that they're towing right yeah it's a real issue i mean he raised some i think some really important points and to that end i found myself you know watching this and thinking okay can we do like a quick pre-interview before we just all go in the dragon room like let's oh my god we don't even

even know who these people are that whole situation was so stressful also like create a fireproof space bring people in one by one like so many things could have been anyway we'll get there like i think you'd want to say you know rank the candidates and go well we hope it's here's the tier that we really hope it's one of these people and then the second tier where it's like okay if

If it's not them and it's this, we can live with that. And then the third, that you're just like, well, hopefully they burn up because we can't have these people on Dragon's League. But I think that also shows...

how important Rhaenyra feels that this is. This is, we're going to lose. I mean, she says it to Jace. Oh, yeah. We're going to lose if we don't do this. Well, and she also says, it's in God's hands, which is like, okay. Right? Yeah. Thanks. So she's like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. It's out of my control now. Just like, okay. Well, all right. Fair enough, I guess.

So speaking of bastard sons, let's talk about Corliss' conversations with his sons in this episode because he talked to both of them. And I thought especially his conversation at Dragonstone with Adam was very poor father-son bonding. I'm curious what your interpretation was of that one. I found it to be a very true-to-life representation of men talking to each other. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Which is, you could tell Corliss was tremendously proud. You know, this is a self-made man. He's watching his son, who he's not acknowledged, but still is his son. Who is also a self-made man. Make his own way in the world to, you know, rise to a tremendous height from such a low birth. And I think he's incredibly proud of this. And...

all he can say is well done. This is all he can express. Yeah, yeah. I thought his conversation with Alan was a little more telling. I mean, it definitely like plants the seeds for Alan, I think, taking Driftmark eventually, right? Especially when Alan actually says, Corlys is like, do you think you're going to end up on a dragon too? And Alan's like, oh no, no, I'm salt and sea, which is like, well, that's exactly what you needed to say, sir. That's exactly what Corlys wants to hear. Oh, salt life. Love it. Nice. Boat guy. Yeah.

I'd love to hear that. Yeah, I think Corliss is, it's a wonderful understated performance in this episode from Steve Toussaint, but you could feel the pride, the fatherly pride in these men that he had no hand in raising, that he was not there for their life.

At all. But whose achievements he certainly sees as the fruit of the root of himself and a reflection of himself, of his own qualities. I think he finds tremendous satisfaction in that. Yeah, we'll call it sweet subtext. Yeah. Let's talk about Laris and the king. It's quite clear the king doesn't want to be working this hard. Right.

And it's quite clear that Orwyle, whose incredible ministrations have healed Aegon to a degree that I don't think anybody thought was possible, also disagrees with working the king this hard. What is behind Larys doing this? Putting the king, like saying, you got to get your 10,000 steps in no matter what. Right.

My read on that is that Larys is reading the room. He knows he is not in Aemon's favor at all. And if he wants any degree of power in that castle, then he needs to have not only Aegon on his side, but how cool would it be if Aegon were actually kind of in his control? I think that that's right. What does he say to Orwil when Orwil's like, the king's got to rest, and he says...

The king may get to rest for a long time, very soon. He can rest when he's dead. Yeah. Yeah. To use a sports metaphor, it's like whenever a new GM comes in, the GM always wants to hire their own people, right? Larys is Aegon's master of whispers. And if Aemond comes to full power, what would that mean for Larys, who has close ties with the queen, who has close ties with Aegon?

I think Laris is feeling the heat on himself as well as the heat on Aegon. And it's like, these are two folks that are in the same lifeboat. You know, I need him to help me. Yeah, I completely agree.

Okay, so speaking of other palace happenings, Alicent pieces out. I love it. I love that for her. I love it for her. I'm a bit skeptical that nobody's like, hey, where'd Alicent go? But she seems to be thriving out there. Yeah, it's a really interesting episode for Alicent because she has spent all of this time wanting to be respected as a person capable of

of leading and if not ruling outright, then at least being part of the deliberative process, being in the room where it happens, so to speak. And I think when that's taken away from her, there's also like a, there's a sense of relief. Like she is being like, well, the rat race is over. I don't have to do that anymore. I'm just going to float Ophelia-like in the lake as Sir Rickard is.

rabbits and wonders when the F are we going back? That was pretty funny when he asks her and she's like, oh no, we're staying here, bro. It's like, how?

How many supplies do you have? How possible is that, actually? But I do love it for her. Let's talk about Damon and the River Lords because his plan is finally bearing fruit. But then he comes up against young Oscar Tully, who is not at all what the pushover that he was envisioning. Let's listen to that clip. Nevertheless. Nevertheless.

Having so little experience to guide me my best course is to defer to the oath my grandsire swore to King Viserys when he named Rhaenyra his heir. I see no reason to cast aside loyalty no matter how loathsome I may find her representative the prince. King, mind your tongue boy. Will you have our army or not?

He's so sassy. I love it. Yeah, it's so good. Just a winning performance by Oscar Tully, who stayed true to the traditions and culture of his homeland, the Riverlands. And...

I think very smartly was able to both uphold his oath and uphold his responsibility as the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. I thought it was an incredible performance by him. And Damon really underestimated this young guy. Yes, I love that he's able to uphold his oath, uphold his duty, and also call Damon out, right? Because that's the other piece. I mean, Damon is arguably fairly unscathed, but still has to...

is at least held somewhat responsible for his actions, you know? Let's play the clip where Oscar really, like, talks truth to power. Mm-hmm. Seize him. Can't fucking do this. Will Grace command them? I've only served you. Command them. If His Grace wishes to show contrition for his act and to prove himself deserving of our banners, he must now rectify his grievous error, denounce your crimes,

and dispense justice. I'm just saying, I would watch an Oscar Tully spin-off. It was wonderful. He was great. R.I.P. Willem Blackwood, who could not have been more shocked. That's very true. That's very true. I mean, what a fall guy. Like, that sucks. Incredible fall guy. He's a horrendous war criminal, but I do feel his pain a little bit in that. Hold on, my king.

You told me to do, you ordered me to do this. You said that that was, that was what you needed. I did it with your leave. He was following orders. How do you think Damon is feeling in this moment? It's a great question. How is Damon feeling in general? We need a wellness check on Damon. I think Damon is, I mean, he does what he has to do, right? It's like, I think it's very clear to him if he wants the allegiance of these people, he has to be held responsible for what happened. And,

I think in a lot of ways it's very convenient that he gets to outsource that responsibility, right? I mean, Damon's not being executed here. He's fine. Yeah, I think Damon is extremely frustrated. I think he enjoyed the services of Will and Black. I think Damon truly values...

having a lackey who will just do whatever. Yeah, with no scruples. With no scruples whatsoever. Yeah. And so I think he does this with unhappiness, but again, with great speed. Like, does not even think about it for really more than half a second. He's like, well, this sucks, but okay. This is what I gotta do? I'll do it. And I think, well, you know, I'll put it to you. What do you think's driving that? He's been styling himself king up until now, but then he has this

vision of his brother in his, you know, rotted and aged state. Yeah. And Viserys is holding the crown. I never wanted it. I was right not to. All that pain it caused. It crushes whoever wears it. You always want it. Do you want it still? My thought, I mean, we've talked about it so many times. It seemed to us that

Damon really wanted the love of his brother more than he ever actually wanted the crown. I think Damon has changed his mind again. I think that, to your point, I think he didn't really want to be king, though everybody thought he wanted to. He just wanted to be close to his brother. Then I think...

after the blow up with Rhaenyra and his grievous error in fomenting the murder of Prince Jaehaerys, I think that he then came around to it and said, well, she doesn't want it anyway, and she's doing so poorly at it. It should be me. I'm going to really go for it. And now I wonder if, again, he hasn't changed his mind again and thought, okay, so I've been trying to style myself as king. Nobody respects me. I just got pushed around by a 14-year-old who

And it's not all it's cracked up to be. And maybe I don't want it. Maybe I actually don't want it. I think to an extent, Daemon doesn't know. I think that's what this is telling us. I could see that. It's also, I think, worth noting that, I mean, the Riverlords have made it very clear that they would not support him as king. They are interested in supporting Rhaenyra. And if he is about that, then they can talk. But otherwise, there's no deal at all.

Yeah, I think that that is, I think that weighs on him as well. And I think Alice continues to be grinding up weirwood nuts and putting it in his coffee. Love it. And to what end, we will only find out as the story unfolds, maybe. But I think for sure she is driving some of this, if not a lot of it. Shall we talk Bastard Army? Yeah.

Seven Bastard Army. Okay, let's do it. So Miss Aria pitches this plan, puts it into motion, sets up the transports, the ships to get the Targaryen bastards who she says they're around the brothels, they're in Flea Bottom, they're all over the place in King's Landing. She puts the word out on the streets.

hey, do you have silvery hair? Do you think you might be a Targaryen bastard? Meet on the beach at 9 p.m. And we know two of them. One is Ulf, the seemingly drunken braggart who we met several episodes back. And then the other is Hugh, our blacksmith. Let's play the clip of Hugh telling his wife, Kat, that he is out of here. He has to ride a dragon. I could not protect you. I could not keep our girl alive. And now...

We would never want again. If I claimed a dragon, they'd make you a lady. I do not care to be a lady, Hugh. And neither do I want to be a widow. So I think we should talk about his rationale that if he were to become a dragon rider, his wife would become a lady. Because this is such an interesting extension of the class dynamics that we have been talking about. I agree. Right? I agree. I think he's thinking...

This is a natural leap. Like, I'll have a dragon. They have to give me something. They can't just leave me as Hugh, the middle-class blacksmith, now with a dragon. They will have to elevate me. And I think that's a reasonable thought. And I also think that I wonder if he's setting himself up for disappointment here. Yeah, I think there's a very interesting wrinkle around the idea of how these people are actually going to be, whether and how these people are going to be accepted, right? Because...

You know, if their first assumption is like, oh yeah, that dude obviously stole a dragon, that's a big hill to climb. Okay, let's talk about the dragon seat audition and the really fascinating monologue that Rhaenyra welcomes them to the island with. If you survive, you will be transformed. A man or woman can face a dragon and be otherwise. Some of you may welcome the prospect of change, even death.

I think of this as a stump speech almost. She promises so much here. An end to suffering, an end to privation, an end to starvation, peace in our time, and...

Whenever someone is giving you the sell to that level, it's hard not to feel like I'm talking to a politician right now. It's starting to feel a little unhinged to me, I think. I agree. I think she's making promises that she does not know she can deliver on. Yeah, and into war. Come on. Yeah. She doesn't know that anything good can come of any of this.

I don't think she warned people sufficiently either about like, most of you are about to be burned alive. Right. I completely agree. And I think to your point about it being unhinged, I think she's never been closer in her mind to her goal, to sitting on the throne than this moment, than when faced with her potential, you know, cadre of future dragon riders, the weapon that she can use to break the usurper's power and outlaw

I think she is mesmerized by that. And I think that's evidenced in this speech. I think that's evidenced in all the references to the gods and their judgment that this is the right path.

I think she's fully committed to doing whatever it takes to get herself on the throne. And I think the fact that it appears now to be working has her completely in its grip. Yeah, it's interesting because it's like you call it a delusion except for the fact that like it is sort of working. It's working, yeah. I think the thing that I probably found most shocking about that scene is actually when she like goes up and

Talks to Vernithor and then walks out of there. And it's like, good luck, bastards, is just like very bad leadership, if you ask me. Something that really hit me in this scene and then throughout the episode is the increasing importance of

And reference to the judgment of the gods. Hey, if the gods called me to this, who am I to say no? And Rhaenyra seems to really begin to lean on that more and more, you know, as her dragon staff quits, you know, she's like, well, if the gods have placed these people before us, who are we to say? And I think that the dragon keeper says something very

cutting, which is the gods didn't put these people before you put these people before you. But at the same time, it's interesting to see the gods be called as part of this. I agree, too. I think to sort of just like give it to God is very interesting and also arguably convenient out for Rhaenyra at this point where she's just like, there's nothing I had to, you know? Yeah.

I think it's, you know, people reach for the thing that gives them permission to do the thing that they want to do. For sure. Do you think she believes it? I think she does. I think she has no choice but to believe it. Right. But yeah, why wouldn't you believe it if you were her and people are showing up on dragons? It's like, oh, great. The gods wanted this. Okay, cool. You know, and then you can do horrible things like throw a bunch of bastards in front of a very angry dragon and walk away. Yep. Like, how convenient is that? Yeah.

I mean, this is the Targaryen thing. I don't mean to target Rhaenyra with this comment. I think any Targaryen in the same position would do the same thing. But the way she watches rapt as people burn was terrifying. It was horrible. And again, I don't think that's just her. I think Aemon, I think Daemon, I think any Targaryen dragon rider in that position would just be like, oh, I'm just going to sit and watch this. But it was scary to see her just...

Be like, I want a great, I want the best seat in the house to watch this happen. These people just burn. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's one thing if it's like a member of your queen's guard and the family has sworn allegiance and there's like generations of honor and trust there. But like these guys, like they don't owe her anything, you know? I agree. Yeah.

Well, despite all the carnage and charred bodies, this plan does actually sort of work. So props to Rhaenyra on that. Hugh is chosen by Vermithor and Ulf is chosen by Silverwing. And then Ulf and Silverwing get to go on a little flight over King's Landing. It is definitely a joy ride. I loved Ulf's reaction because it's so rare that we just, I mean, that must, the joy of flight, you know, it must be incredible. And he's

is that rare person that we guys who watch just enjoy it. Joyride did seem like the right word for that. Yeah. Let me ask you, there was that very interesting moment where Amon rushes, wonderful scene, he rushes out of the Red Keep, leaps on a horse, runs,

rides over to Vhagar, is in the sky in a jiffy, but then has to really lean into it to get Vhagar to turn around and really say several times, Vhagar, flee, no. And use all his strength to pull back on that harness. What do you make of that? I loved that scene. I think partly it was interesting to see...

Because I think initially he's fired up. He's ready to go. This is an act of aggression. Y'all want to fight? Let's fight. But then as he realizes, oh shit, there are many more dragons. The count is very different. The dynamics have changed drastically. And I actually need to get the hell out of here. Is really interesting. I mean, the fact that...

Up until now, it kind of seemed like Aemond with Vhagar, there was nothing that could touch them. You know, Melyse gave it a shot, and she and Rhaese are dead now. So what else is there? And here is the answer. And so I think the tables have turned in a way that is like...

pretty exciting, just even from like a storytelling point of view. I completely agree. I think that this news is going to be met with alarm from the Green Councils. I mean, you know, we heard a little bit about how rough the going is right now. And now you've got

Rhaenyra with several dragons. This is, I would imagine, very concerning, alarming. This is going to be frightening news for the greens. Yeah. Yeah. It is worth noting that Daeron came up again right before the joyride with Ulf, and we did learn...

that Darren's dragon is flying. So they do have another dragon, but that's probably like a pocket-sized dragon, huh? It's going to be a decent-sized, smaller dragon. But, you know, from everything that people are saying when they speak about Darren, it certainly seems as if it's a fearsome and potent, smaller dragon. That said...

I mean, how many the blacks now have? Several. Yes. That's a lot already. And that's going to be a real, real problem. Yep. It is.

Okay, obviously a huge episode, lots to come. I can't wait to see what happens next week in the finale. But in the meantime, while we wait, I am very happy that we got to talk to showrunner Ryan Condal about everything that happened in this episode. It was a packed conversation, so let's go listen.

We are so very happy to welcome our dear friend, showrunner Ryan Condal, back to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here, Ryan. Yeah, guys. Thank you. I've listened to the podcast. I've been enjoying it. Oh, thanks so much. So I'm really delighted by it. Awesome. We hear the word dragon seeds, and it comes up a lot in this episode.

Tell us about dragon seas, who they are, what they are. Yeah, I mean, there's this, it's somewhat of a bit of a pejorative because it's labeling you as a bastard, but it's also a bit of an honorific because you're a bastard, but that also makes you technically closer to gods than to men. And in the tradition of this sort of

world, in the book version, there used to be the right of first knight. So Targaryen lords and princes and kings could go out and have the first evening with a lady or woman who was to be wed. And what that ended up creating was just a lot of Targaryen bastards running around. And Jaehaerys very famously came in, the great, the conciliator, the old king that we see at the

Between that and between Targaryen dalliances over the... I was hoping you were going to use the word dalliance. Yeah. We have a lot of silver-haired people running around that aren't noble and that have dragon blood or Valyrian blood in them, and those people are called dragon seeds. It's so fascinating. There are a number of pretty interesting class and societal implications to all of it that I'm really looking forward to talking to you about. But I would love to know first...

how you thought through structuring the season in terms of sort of sprinkling these dragon seeds through the episodes so we are starting to get to know some of these characters before we get to this very climactic episode.

I mean, we wanted these all to be real people with internal lives and hopefully three-dimensional existences. It served us on two levels because one was it was a great chance to see what it's like to be among the small folk living in a walled city during a time of crisis.

And the people in King's Landing are particularly stressed out because that's where the throne is. And they know eventually this war is coming there and it's just a matter of time. And is it going to be dragons or is it going to be armies or is it going to be both? And it's a very stressful time to live in because as we see, they live very – even Hugh's family, he's got a real job. He's a blacksmith. He's in service to the crown.

It can be rather hand-to-mouth, and there isn't great medical care. They have a sick daughter. So we got to tell those stories in a way that I think enriched the world, but also set up these characters that we're going to follow. And by the time they are sailing to Dragonstone to participate in this insane lottery that they've signed up for—

You know who they are, and hopefully you're, at the very least, if you're not rooting for them, hopefully you're rooting for Hugh, because I think we've made Hugh into quite a sympathetic character. Yes. You're fascinated by them, sort of nodding more at our friend Ulf and his story. And I always felt like...

So much of the texture and character and humor from the original series comes from this clash of culture and the clash of classes. When you put Bronn, who's essentially a nameless sellsword with Tyrion, it creates...

really interesting clash of cultures, Sandhurk again with anybody. And this is a little different, but this is a way to get into that world. And we have, you know, Massaria plays a big role in the show now, much bigger than she did in season one. You know, Adam Valerian as well, I should say, Adam of Hull. Uh-huh.

But we've been able to zero in on people who have a different experience in this world than the lords and princes and princesses that live in these castles on the hill. Well, I love it so much, too, because I feel like there is so much conversation in a show like this, inevitably around sort of like what's best for the realm. But we never, you know, if you never actually meet those people, then the reality of that can be...

And I think it's really fun to just like see people hanging out in a bar, you know? Yeah. And Tom, you know, Tom Bennett is such a, he's a comedian. I mean, he's really, he's a comedic actor and that's why we, that's why we cast him. And it's just so, it's so delightful to see him, you know,

inhabit the world in a way that feels real, but also brings so much fun to the show. And you see this guy who's just kind of making things up as he goes along, and he doesn't know whether he really believes any of this. He wants to believe it. And yeah, but there's this more serious analysis exploration that comes out of it, which is

Is this the kind of person that we want to see riding on a nuclear weapon? Yeah. I mean, Hugh seems okay, but Ulf, I have questions. I think if, you know, maybe we want to extend the trading process maybe for him. I don't know. Can we just talk about the joy on Ulf slash Tom Bennett's face when he's flying over King's Landing? Amazing. So delighted. Perfect.

Well, I mean, I do think it's interesting because, yes, there's the question of nobility in terms of dragons and who should be able to, you know, wield these nuclear weapons. But I think it also, like, throws the entire system into question, right? Like, if the dragons are a more democratic system, then what's the point of nobility at all? I think it's also something that...

is being questioned here. You know, the idea when Hugh says like, oh yeah, well, if I can ride a dragon, I can be a lord is like, are those actually the same things, you know? And are these folks going to be able to be accepted into the fold the way they think they're going to be?

And, you know, I mean, obviously they have a lot of power, but I think it's really interesting. We have to wait and see a bit. Rhaenyra brings up an interesting point when Mysaria is pushing this agenda on her, saying you need to look between the sheets and within the wood piles, a famous line from the book. Rhaenyra says, but among lords, there's an ancient fealty, meaning if Stefan Darkling got onto that dragon, he would be loyal to Rhaenyra because of that ancient fealty.

Ulf and Hugh. I mean, maybe more Hugh because he's in service to the king. Even though he's not a lord himself, he understands how it works. He seems like a noble dude. Yeah. Yeah. If he turns against Rhaenyra...

She can't take his castle away and disinherit his children. It's just, it's just, it, it, what she has done is anarchic and, and transgressive and, and revolutionary in the, in the literal sense of the word, meaning this is like, you know, this is like the, the Bolsheviks coming in and deciding that the Romanov shouldn't be in an imperial power anymore. Or it potentially could have that effect because she really has,

broken the wheel. She's changed the order of things. You know, when Rhaenyra said to Rhaenys in episode two of season one, well, when I'm queen, there will be a new order. And it's like, well, nobody's ever done this before. And putting non-

Targaryens are not, you know, people without at least the Targaryen last name on dragons is a pretty big, like that wasn't done in the history of old Valyria. This has always been a very strictly controlled process. And Rhaenyra's totally undone that. And look, it might lead to victory for her in the war, but it also might have unintended consequences. I'm interested in the different ways that we see these dragons claimed. Adam is, you know, Seasmoke goes to him and finds him. Meanwhile, Hugh and Ulf

have to be taken down to the, to the dragons, you know, in a... Insane lottery is a good way of putting it. In an insane...

- Fiery and horrific lottery are chosen as the winners. - Good lord. - Take us through how you decided to flesh out these kind of different bonding techniques between the rider and the dragon and how they found each other. - I mean, I think it started with an internal challenge to us as the riders to try to make this exciting and interesting every time. And we felt like coming out of season one with this iconic sequence of Amon after episodes of being bullied for not having a dragon,

sneaking up on Godzilla and as a 12 year old and climbing into her saddle and then taking her for a joyride and then coming back a total badass and then punching his cousins. It was hard to outdo that.

But we really wanted to make this feel different from experience to experience. Because you imagine all these different dragons have their own personalities and hopes and wants and dreams of their own. And we know from the books as well that the claiming experiences are different. And we wanted each one of these to feel different so it didn't just feel like

repeating the Vhagar sequence again and again. And how do you make that, you know, how do you make that feel different? So with Adam, it was, let's see a dragon claim a man, you know, let's turn it on its head. And we saw Stefan Darklin try and fail and then see smoke flies out of the dragon. You're not going to arrange my marriage. I'm going to, I'm going to choose my, my partner. And he goes and hunts down Adam who we know he's been looking at for, for the whole season, you know, with, with Hugh and Ulf, um,

sequences, but also very different in the end. Hugh survives because he does this incredibly brave or stupid act in daring the dragon to take him down. Where everybody else is fearful and running, Hugh stares the beast in the eye and face him, and then the bronze fury says, okay, you will do. And with all, people can read into it what they want to read into it. Silverwing is known as a more gentle dragon as far as gentle and dragons go together. Yeah.

But Ulf was supplicant to the dragon. He didn't show fear, but he was supplicant. And I think that was the, you know, in our mind, that was the thing that we kind of wanted to show there is that, you know, we know in the canine world, you know, there's sort of, there's alphas and omegas. And sometimes you show your belly and sometimes that's how you get, that's sometimes how you fit into the pack.

So we just wanted these things to all feel kind of different. But in the end, everybody gets on their dragon and they have a different experience getting there. I liked, too, as a non-book reader, the fact that with Ulf, there was just enough uncertainty as to whether he would end up toast like everybody else or actually pull it off. You know, there's the moment when he steps in the dragon egg and you're sort of like, oh, this dude might just be fucked. Yeah.

You know, talking to Lonnie Parasier, the director who, you know, knocked it out of the park with that sequence. Oh, my God. And thank you to Weta as well, who Weta Digital did that entire, that whole sequence. It was very important to us that this feel like you don't know if they're going to survive. We didn't want to make it the Olfenhugh story with a bunch of red shirts around them. Right. It's just inevitable. Yeah. Yeah. Just because I know this is a question that I think people are going to ask, why did

don't the blacks, much like hermit crabs, trade up to the bigger dragon? Why wouldn't Jace say, oh, my dragon's kind of medium to smallish size. I'll take Vermithor. Oh, you take mine. Why not do that? I never thought of our dragons and hermit crabs before, Jason, but thank you.

That's a new one. Jason Concepcion. That's a new one in the lore. Why am I walking around in this old Budweiser can when I could upgrade to... Get a nicer shell. Yeah, I could be in a Perrier can.

I never really, I never thought of it that way. I mean, I don't, we've made a lot of the bond that Ryder has with the dragon. And I think we see, you know, how close Aegon is and certainly how close, you know, Rhaenys R.I.P. is with her dragon. I just, it's interesting. You know, I wonder how that would play. I mean, I imagine if you asked Jace, he would say, no, Vermax is my guy and I'm bound to him for life. Yeah, that's how I feel. And, you know, I have this connection with him and I know, you know, I know that,

I know all the steering tricks with him. And I trust if we're going to fly into battle, I want to be with the wingman that I trust. Yeah. And Vermax is very handsome, so. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good-looking pair. Yeah. I'd love to talk about...

I mean, it's pretty clear in this episode that Rhaenyra is balancing a number of different motivations. But, you know, I mean, she more or less gives a stump speech at the insane lottery, as we're calling it, where, you know, she's really painting herself as a revolutionary, which is certainly a valid argument. I'd love to hear more about Rhaenyra.

kind of how you are framing where Rhaenyra's headspace is at this point in terms of opening a very big Pandora's box in a lot of different ways. Yeah. I mean, we've seen Rhaenyra has made quite an evolution at this point in the story. And we see little things starting with her not

not telling anybody and flying out at the end of six and going to face down with Seasmoke on her own without consulting her counselor and without even consulting Jace, who chases her out onto the platform. She returns in seven and doesn't even convene the council. She just goes right to Misaria to chat it through. She's becoming much more, I don't want to say autocratic, but she's becoming more sort of

keeping her own counsel and self-assured. And she has to because we've seen her counsel's been a nightmare to her all season. And people either wringing their hands so much that to the point of inaction or

Yeah.

Prince that was promised story that Viserys has told her and starting to we hear it in four when she tells Jace about the Song of Ice and Fire. We start to hear this. This is how I'm justifying doing this thing that my father was so afraid of doing that he died trying to keep the family from going to war over his succession.

But I'm going to do it because now I've decided that's the only way to reunite the realm is to send the dragons to war. And it's a very slippery slope that she's gone down on. She's leaning into, you're starting to hear these kind of messianic words. It's in God's hands. Yes. Correct. Yeah. Correct. And her talking to Miss Aria about,

Adam coming to her, being delivered to her as if a divine messenger. And you're going to see her kind of leaning into Adam in that way, seeing him as a, if there is some divine providence at work here, maybe Adam is the symbol for that. He was, I mean, almost literally dropped in my lap on a dragon. And on a day when I was trying to have a dragon claimed by my best knight and

And that failed. And then this common sailor was delivered to me as a loyal dragon rider. There must be something at work. Viserys told me there was. It was meant to be me. And you're starting to hear that. I don't think she's become a cult leader, but...

there is some dangerous DNA in there in the things that you're hearing that could break one way or the other with her. Well, I do feel like there's just a real unhinged quality also to being like, we can fix everything with these dragons. Good luck out there. And then just like turning around and watching it all unfold. I mean, that is just like carnage. Yeah. You know, a credit to the great Emma Darcy and their performance through that amazing sequence, which, and so much of it is silent. So much of it is just

done in observation. But we talked a lot about that going into that sequence. And it was like, we really wanted both Emma and I, we, you know, the writers wanted to

to feel a bit like she had thrown these guys to the wolves, but not in a way that was cold or sadistic, but in a way that was like, well, I have this flock and maybe one of them will emerge from the ashes as this phoenix to be proof of my...

that I, it is me and I am the prince that was promised and let's see what happens. And I don't think, look, I don't think she thinks the butchery is going to happen that ends up happening, but certainly it's a risk. I mean, she's, you know, she's been around dragons long enough to know that that's a major risk. Yeah. And, and I, I think the hope is that the audience is going to take away a bit of a, I don't know what I think about

what Rhaenyra did there and what this means for her as a character and me wanting to see her take that throne one day. Yeah, it's messy. Very messy. Let's go from the war to the haunted castle of Harrenhal where Daemon has been busy wandering through the canyons of his own mind. Talk to us a little bit about

What David is experiencing here. I was definitely very interested in Harrenhal as a character, as a place. And it always fascinated me going back to reading the books, whether those were legends or whether the magic was alive in that place the way it seems to be alive in the greater world of A Song of Ice and Fire. Mm-hmm.

very early on, we wanted to explore this idea of Damon going and checking in at the Overlook Hotel and what that would do to Damon as a character. And what the interesting thing about this was you take a Damon who kind of is in many ways like Jack Torrance at the end of The Shining and

Yeah.

But on a very basic sort of storytelling level, the idea was to put Damon through an external problem of, I have to go to the Riverlands and raise an army, and the Riverlands are a mess. And he has the internal problem of, I think I'm going crazy. So he's working through his internal issues, and he's literally being faced with the ghosts of his past. And now that Damon seems to have

assembled his army or at least won the respect of the river lords by having been put through their gauntlet and having Oscar Tully at his side. Now the question is, what kind of clarity is Daemon going to achieve? So yeah, in that scene with Viserys, he tells Daemon that the crown crushes whoever wears it.

I mean, that does seem to be just like universally true. Don't you think? I mean, is there a way to pull off being a ruler in this world and not just be completely subsumed by it? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think, I think Viserys is particularly crushed. I mean, we, I mean, we literally saw him, you know, rot under the, under the crown. Um,

I think there are more autocratic rulers that probably take to the job more easily because they're not burdened by conscience and by worrying about what other people think of them. Sure. Um, I mean, I think other than not having, being able to have a male heir, Magor probably didn't

have a lot of sleepless nights at the Red Keep the way that Jaehaerys the Conciliator and Viserys probably did. But yeah, I mean, I think that is particularly Viserys' experience. And I think the interesting thing with that is when way back...

When I was talking to Patty about coming back and reprising this character who is so, you know, Patty is, Viserys is so within Patty in a way that, I mean, he's told me it's his favorite character that he's ever played, which is such, you know, such an incredible honor. Wow. That's really cool. Yeah. And for me to say, hey, do you want to come back and be a ghost? Yeah.

was a lot to ask him. So we talked a lot about like, what is the arc here? And I think what he keyed in on was actually, I'm not playing...

Viserys in so much as I'm playing Viserys for Daemon. Haunting Daemon, yeah. I'm Daemon's story. This is not my story. It's actually Daemon's story. And because he and Matt were so close and because Viserys and Daemon were so integral with each other in the first season, I think he really keyed to that. And he finally called me. I was sort of drumming my hands on my knees for days. Is he going to do it?

And he finally called me and he said, I'll do it if in the last scene I can be in my decrepit old man makeup. Because...

I want my face to be falling off of my face. Yes. And we weren't going to do that to him because it's like an eight-hour process and whatever. But he was like, I think it's just really important in that moment from a character perspective for Damon to see Viserys right on the cusp of what that crown has done to him. I mean, yeah. That's the Viserys that offers the crown. That's valid. The one that the crown has killed. Yeah. And I was like, that's goddamn amazing. Damn, Patty. Yeah, yeah. Damn. Wow. And it's beautiful. It's great. Yeah, it's perfect. Perfect.

I do want to talk about the final frame of this episode because it is so perfect. I'm talking about when Aemond gets onto Vhagar, he's furious. He starts to ride towards Dragonstone. And he turns Vhagar right around because he is... The board is completely different than he thought it was. And it completely changes everything about what is to come. And just seeing... I mean, we don't see Rhaenyra smile a lot in this season, but...

But seeing her stand there with their arms crossed, smirking, surrounded by dragons is so perfect. It's a cool shot. That was incredibly difficult to pull off because it was Emma on a side of a mountain with a safety cable tethering them to literally to a quarry in North Wales. Oh, my God. Because the only way to get that shot was to be out very wide. So we actually shot it on a – Lonnie shot it on a drone. Oh, my God.

The weather conditions were not great, so there was wind. And so we were trying to get that feeling of that very smooth and fluid push in. And we only got a couple of bites of that apple. Because you need a very wide lens to be able to have three gigantic dragons in it and still be able to see your hero and the castle.

It was a lot in visual effects to get all that together. It was a lot to get that shot together. But again, it's all anchored around that incredible performance that Emma gives in the moment. And at this point, Emma is really, other than Emma and a little bit of grassy foreground, that's the only things that are in that shot that were there in camera. But yeah, it's a big game changer for Eamon. And what you're seeing on Eamon there is fear. And he is brought back, I think, in that moment

to a time in his childhood that he has tried desperately to forget before he had Vhagar when he was the put upon boy that was skinnier and smaller than his brother and was picked on. And I think fear is the thing that that Aemond is probably the most afraid of. But yeah, he's on he's on the run and he's he's got he's got big trouble now with Rhaenyra and her army of bastards.

Let's talk a little bit about the show as a work of adaptation. I think one of my favorite things about this season and experiencing it is how it works in tandem with the books to highlight that they are essentially books

war propaganda from various points of view, green and black, but still war propaganda. And unless for instance, you know, the dragon seed plan and the books is mainly framed as Jace's idea. And then to see it fleshed out in this way works with the books as well, but the two work together in a really interesting way. I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, we, we did, we definitely wanted to service the idea that it was, it, it,

it was sparked by Jace. And we see that at the end of episode five. And it was his idea. And he was totally good with it when we were putting a noble blooded Lord commander of the Kings guard, Queens guard on a dragon. And that takes a major turn for him when this random shipwright of common blood with no last name shows up on a dragon with dark hair and

not silver hair. And with Jace has been shadowed all his life by accusations of bastardy. And not that that makes him common born, but it does reduce him, uh,

And it's the chip on his shoulder. It's his triggering word. And now Rhaenyra has moved off of this, let's find lords of the realm and ladies potentially with dragon blood or drops of Targaryen blood. And let's go right to the source, these very richly blooded people with silver hair and Targaryen blood that are of more kind of

questionable lineage, meaning we don't know what is their parentage, as Rhaenyra asks Adam on the beach. And that's where Jace and Rhaenyra depart. And we think that is totally true to his character. And the character that we've set up and written for two seasons, Jace thinks that the one thing that he says to Rhaenyra, the one thing that has set me apart from the accusations that have followed me is that I have a dragon and a dragon was born to me. And that is what makes me a Targaryen.

And if you take this power and give it to these people that are not of noble birth, then what does that say for me? It says that maybe I'm not a Targaryen and maybe I'm not special. Maybe it's not special to have a dragon at all if we'd make this truly a democratic thing. And I think there's...

There's so much interesting stuff to mine there. And like, Jace is being a bit of a snob. He's being a real snob. And Rhaenyra is being a populist in a way. But like, as subjects of this realm, is this the world that we... Isn't it better than...

that there is a barrier to entry for nuclear weapons. I mean, it'd be better if they didn't probably exist as Viserys sort of drummed until his death. But yeah, I think it's created a real dust up between them and we'll have to see how this is going to play out now. You can't unring that bell.

Just to return to the topic of adaptation, there's a number of plot lines and moments in the season that aren't in the books. I think the one that leaps to mind is the secret summit between Alicent and Rhaenyra and that active, seemingly open back channel. Talk about coming up with that as a choice.

Yeah. So, I mean, look, this is television and television runs on putting your finest actors and your central characters into dramatic situations together. And that's not to say that we do it lightly or we think we can just do this willy-nilly because everybody wants to see a scene between Olivia Cooke and Emma Darcy, and they do. Which we do. Yeah. I agree. Everybody does. Yeah. But we had to figure out a way to try to get them together on screen. And yes, this was not in the book. But

But all I would say is like, it's not in the book because that would never be on the historical record. It would never, ever, ever be. Right, of course. That's not something that Eustace would be aware of or Gildane who's compiling the book. How did Gildane miss this one? Yeah, right, right. And Rhaenyra, she is going to, she would, as she says to Jace, I would sooner risk my own life and my claim.

to try to see if there's a path toward peace before I risk the lives of tens of thousands of others. And I think it's the most noble thing that Rhaenyra does as a sovereign. And yes, it is dangerous and you could call it stupid even, but it's not something she did lightly and it's not something she did without thinking about the consequences. She knew what the danger was. And you can see on Darklyn's face, he doesn't want to be there and he's tried to talk her out of it.

But she felt like if there was a chance to put the horse back in the barn at this stage in the story, she had to go and at least try, even if it meant her death. So given the fact that, I mean, it's so fascinating that you're working with this specific source material because you do have so much wiggle room in terms of who is telling the stories and things that just maybe aren't part of the historical record. Yeah.

But I wonder, you know, for people who are like, you know, it's not in the books and who are bummed out by that, what are some of the criteria that you're using as you're thinking through deviations like this one with Rainier and Allison? Like, it seems to me like it tracks enough with their characters that it makes sense to me that it would have happened. Yeah.

I think the first place that we go to, and that's a great question, Greta. And again, just like Rhaenyra going to King's Landing and dressing up as a nun to do it, I don't take any of these decisions lightly. Of course not. There's nothing flip about anything that we do. And I think if you've listened to me in interviews, have listened to me on this podcast, I've read that book many, many times. I've read Song of Ice and Fire many, many times. I am deeply ensconced in this world. I care very deeply about it. I realize I have a great responsibility on my shoulders of rendering this adaptation.

But the first place that we go to is always like, can you very simply, can you read Fire and Blood and read

not be taken off course by this thing happening? And the answer is, we're trying to make sure that the indisputable large historical events generally are happening. I don't want to kill anybody that's alive in the book. I don't want to kill somebody that needs to have an offspring later that becomes a future king. I don't want to mess with the canon in such a way that there is this huge ripple effect that goes on down the line. We've been really careful about that stuff. And look,

I'm sure somebody can call up an example where something has been thrown off or potentially. But that is the first criteria that we approach is like, could this have happened out of the sight and view of those three people that are writing that historical record? Are the headlines still accurate? Yeah. Exactly. And it is a headline story. We're trying to hit all the headlines.

And we're trying to deepen the psychology and the internal story of these characters who you're only getting – you're not getting them as characters. You're getting them as historical accounts. So how do you put pathos and decision-making behind these choices that are being made by Damon and Rhaenyra and Alyson and all the other characters?

And also, on an adapter level, and I realize this is something that people might take issue with, I think what we're trying to do is render a version of this that isn't just the thing that you expect every week, where...

oh, that's interesting. The history happened, but not in the way that I expected it was going to happen. That thing was slightly different or it was wrong or the accepted notion of how that happened was totally different. And I think we're trying to deliver a faithful adaptation of this book, as faithful as we possibly can be while still making a television show for millions and millions of people that don't read that book.

And I'm not going to get the right answer all the time. I can only stay to my own sort of true north reading on my compass, which is I always go back to what's the show that I want to see as a giant book fan and reader who also writes television and understands that adaptations are necessarily different than their source material. Well, finally, at this point in the story, how would you assess...

Which side is winning? I mean, I think at the end of VII, you have to say that the weight of the ballast on this ship has heavily shifted towards the side of black. Rhaenyra gained three massive dragons, two of the biggest in the realm outside of Vhagar. We've seen how powerful the dragons are in the calculus of this show. Coming out of VII, I think you have to say that victory for Rhaenyra now must seem somewhat inevitable.

But it is Game of Thrones. And people do unexpected things. Thank goodness for that. Yeah. That's right. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Ryan. We can't wait to watch the finale. Thanks, guys.

So wonderful to have Ryan on. Always. Man, some quite interesting things to say, particularly about Rhaenyra's grip on power and the way it's changing her. Yeah, this is another instance, as we've talked about before, where it's like, yes, these characters are changing, but it makes sense given what is happening in the story, which is so satisfying to see, you know? Yeah. And, you know, I feel like we're getting close to Ryan inviting us to Spain or something. Oh!

I love that idea, Jay. I thought you were going to say, like, get beers sometime. But yes, I think Spain. In Spain. I think we need drinks in Spain. That's right. We're ready, Ryan. We're here. Just call anytime. We're available. That's all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again Sunday night right after Episode 8.

That's the season finale, folks, which airs on HBO and Max. If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on X and Instagram. And you can find me at Network, N-E-T-W-3-R-K. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios.

This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jayanne Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer is Hannes Brown, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija, and Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter.

Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and myself. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstad, Alison Cohen, and Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening, and please be careful if you do decide to enroll in Queen Rhaenyra's Dragonriding School. It's a short course, and only a few of you will pass. Who among you would be first?