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And what's it like to be someone's disappointment for 20-something years? It's hard. What you are about to hear is a classic session of "Where Should We Begin?" with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.
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Well, I wanted to work on my relationship, want to make it better, more satisfying both for her and for myself. I tend to be more solitary and like to do things on my own, like time alone. We enjoy the same kind of plays and restaurants, and if we travel together, it's really usually a great time.
Put us in the same kitchen together trying to figure out, you know, whether there's crystal light or grape juice in a pitcher and I could bite his head off. I want to find ways for us to keep from wandering off in our own direction because we have a tendency to do that. As far as our sex life goes, we get very caught in just the struggle of it when I think it could be fun, more relaxed and more engaging for both of us.
This couple has been together for more than two decades and sexuality has been a problem, has been fraught pretty much since the beginning. In the past 12 years, there's been the impotence and the
It's like very slow awareness of, wow, this is the rest of my life. I stay in this marriage. Every time we have sexual play, there's like this overwhelming grief waiting for me when I'm suddenly aware now that it's really unlikely that there's ever going to be an election. I mean, there hasn't been in a decade. It's not just...
his penis that doesn't connect. It's also his entire being that struggles to connect with her in this particular way. And they would like to do something about this because he doesn't want to lose her and she's really despairing. But I also think that before they can speak about his erectile difficulties and about their sexlessness, there is another place we need to enter, which is his aloneness.
This is Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. If you had an image of yourself as a kid, what would it be? I was alone. And do you think that that way of yours still is part of how, on occasion, instead of reaching out to your wife, you decide, I better do it. You don't even decide. You just go about things on your own. Right. I think so.
And if you had a few words to describe your family, what would you say? Closed off, distant, isolated. People talked at the dinner table? No, no, we just sat and ate. I think that's one of the things that really is uncomfortable. I saw her face, that's why. That's right. That's what she says all the time, that her family is always talking. In my family, we just kind of sit and eat. And what drew you to this woman? Where did you meet her? Her legs.
Go for it. Yeah, why not? But more it was her forwardness, her honesty, her ability to just say what's on her mind. What stands out in this couple is that the sexual problem exists within a very defined cross-cultural couple.
in which the woman who grew up in the United States brings with her a very powerful tradition toward autonomy and assertiveness and the ability to express one's wanting, one's feelings.
Whereas this man who grew up in China and then came with his family in his school years to the United States, grew up not with the idea that he needed to know what he wants, but he needed to be attuned to the wantings of others. And that that attunement to the needs of the collective is also what has made him wonderfully competent in his work and attuned to her.
But there is a paradox in the original attraction, as you will see. It's an interesting thing between what one actually was drawn to and what one ultimately ends up doing. You know, you say her legs. Of course, my first thought in my head is when's the last time he touched those legs? Earlier this week. Now, do me a favor. If you know you touched them, then you know you touched them. You don't have to go ask her if it's correct. Right.
Because that position of insecurity that you've been in now for so long, where she has the truth or she has the count or she knows when's the last time or she knows how often, you're as smart as they come. You know to count. Right. So if I ask you when's the last time you touched them, you have a sense. It doesn't really matter to me when, but it's like, do you still feel like you can reach out to those legs that you found so beautiful? So do you get to enjoy those legs or not?
I do. Good. Simple. And do you think she enjoys it when you enjoy it? I think so. You think? You know? Yeah. Why you doubt? Because it depends on the approach. Depends on the timing. Depends on whether she's busy doing something or other. Depends on whether she's got her mind on something else.
So that timing becomes an issue. There are times when I try to touch her and if it's not the right time, I get snapped at. And what do you do when you get snapped? I back off. Give me an example. If I touch her hair, give her a hug in the morning, if she's in a hurry to get out of the house, then I back off. When we...
worked with, can I use the first name of a therapist? That's okay, isn't it? When we worked with Andrew, I really appreciated how he spoke to you once about how to enter into the buzzing around of me. And when he was describing it to you, I was like, that's it, that's just what I need. You hear this. But you know, I just watched him.
And I had this image of you going... And then he just trying to, you know, to notice when exactly, at some point, maybe. And what would happen if he actually said, stop for a minute. When I met this couple, I had a sense that the wife...
had been speaking for years, repeating herself, begging, asking, despairing and continuously feeling that his response was too little, too late or not at all. And so I decided to imbalance the situation by actually having a very long conversation just with him where she could listen
And he could present himself, present the issues, present his wishes, their expectations for our work together, and free her from the responsibility that she had been carrying for way too long. What would happen if he actually said, stop for a minute, you're not going to get laid, we need this, or I want this? That would be even more daring.
But the man who does that is not a man who can say, I think that she likes it. Right. He has to say, I know, or I'll make her, but in a playful way, I make her. How confident can you be? Pardon? How confident can I be to say that? A year or so ago,
I'm very active in this volunteer organization and I would be paired with a very strong personality that was a demanding person that things be done absolutely a particular way and could be utterly tactless at it as well. And I enjoyed him tremendously, considerably older than I am.
And we were actually in bed, like, having sex back then. And I said, wow, I'm having this fantasy of what it would be like to have sex with this guy you know I'm talking about. Because I just can imagine him saying, okay, we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this. And it's going to have to be absolutely exact. And for some reason, he kept popping into my head while we were...
kind of love making and I could just see that for some reason that must be attractive to me on some level. Do you remember this story? Me telling you this? Not really, no. Because you took it really well. You took it right in stride and I was pleased. But are you inviting him? Is this what you just did an invitation? To take charge? Yeah, she said it. That I need to know what I want and go for it I guess in a way.
Can you ask her for something right now? Can I ask her for something right now? Yes. Take her hand and just ask her for something. And you can use her hand to touch you. My face. And tell her exactly how you want her to touch your face. Does that feel good? Do you want it differently? Different stroke? Different pressure?
Just ask for what you want. That's a problem in that... No, just ask for what you want. That's a problem in that I don't know what I want. Okay, then try out different things. Okay. Okay. Try it very light and then tell her how that feels. Just let her know. How does that one feel? I think I like it lighter. Do you want a steady stroke or do you want a touch of the tip of the fingers? I think I like tip of the fingers. Okay.
Does that feel good? I'm tempted to say, I think it does. I want you to own it. And how does that feel? It's nice. Then tell her. That's nice. I like it. And how often do you do that? Not very often at all. What happens too is that when she starts touching me, I have this strong impulse to be touching her rather than... Plenty of time. I get worried too that...
She'll get tired of it. She'll get impatient and want to move on. Depends on your feedback. If your feedback says, keep on doing. That's interesting. I like this. I don't know. Do this, that other one again? No. The change again? Which one do I like actually more? I don't know. But keep on going. And you feed the motivation. There is no bigger turn on.
Do you know then what? A positive feedback. Confidence. She's told me that. I just came up on the
That drive. He's taking less and less on call as he becomes a senior partner and nears retirement. So I don't hear him doing hospital work or on call the way it occupied our life in the past. And recently we were driving somewhere, and I was driving so he could answer a call. Remember? And this is just the past two weeks. And he was going through a quick differential diagnosis with a patient and dealing with it. And when he got off the phone, I was like,
There's the guy I met, you know, at work that I fell in love with. I never got to live with him. But a part of what you're describing is that you have never, I'm not sure if never, but you have not had much experience with asking. Mm-hmm. Right. Knowing what to ask and then trusting that you will receive and then enjoying receiving. It's a new language.
You're very good at taking care of other people. You may not be as good at letting other people take care of you. Yeah, that's for sure. Without experience in that, then he can't act confidently in that manner. You see, you two don't have a problem loving each other. You know, you have this elephant that's been between the two of you for a long time with a complete over-focus on your performance, on the erectile difficulties,
And all these ugly words that are completely shaming and emasculating. And you know the word emasculating does not exist in the feminine. That's a plague for men. So change the language because it is crippling. And it's as if you don't have a whole body. We make love with the whole body and a lot of other parts of us, not just with our genitals.
If you stay focused on those damn genitals, not much is going to happen. Simply because it's reductionistic and rather boring. And plus you can't rely on them. But you can rely on your hands, you can rely on your smell, you can rely on your skin, you can rely on your hair, you can rely on your voice, you can rely on your smile, on your eyes. My God, there's a lot of instruments in this orchestra. And...
you're going to learn a question that was never asked to you as a child. What would you like? I don't think that was a question that was part of the family vocabulary. No. And so it's a little awkward to say, "I like," or "I would like," or "This feels good," or "This is..." It's like, "I'm going to..." This is going to be called the therapy of indulgence. How do we learn to indulge? To experience pleasure for its own sake?
he realized that this was a question nobody had ever asked him. Do you have permission to experience pleasure and to seek pleasure? And do you have permission to explicitly set out to seek joy? It is very hard for some people, especially for him who struggles with feeling that this is too indulgent, that this is too selfish. He's a caregiver. He's a caregiver in the full sense of the word, professionally as well as personally.
which is part of why she says attached to him as well. But in his way of being such a caregiver, he does not know how to care for himself. And then I could turn to her and ask her, what drew you to him? Knowing or suspecting that very often the very thing that infuriates us two decades later is also sometimes the very thing that originally drew us in and was irresistible.
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And what drew you to him?
Our dates were fun. We did interesting things. He was... How old were you? I was 24? 23, I think. 23? Yeah. He was quiet and calm. And his being quiet, what was that like for you? It was safe and non-critical. I see so many of those characteristics so differently now that it's painful.
- A little more? - He is calm, but he's not. He's also very, very anxious and denies it adamantly. - Who is the more critical of you two? - Who is the more critical? It's easy to say me, but I don't know if that is true. I'm just more obvious about it and you're quiet and subtle about it. - But do you, are you a person who gives compliments or shows appreciation verbally?
Or did you learn the family language by which you know without it having to be said? Probably the latter. Same with your kids? Probably true. Although I tried to say more to them.
And your wife would love if you did so with her too. Spontaneously. I feed him lines all the time. So I'm like, tell me I rock. Tell me this outfit's gorgeous. Tell me I look great in blue. But you understand that this is very much not the language he has learned. To state things. To make things explicit. And you have to understand that these reactions are very cultural. Not only personal.
You know that? You know, I think I know that. I don't think she believes that. Believes what? I don't know what you're talking about. That some of what I am is not just me but my background. Even though I came over when I was really young at seven, I think there's still something there that from culturally that makes me who I am and not just me. There's a way that I say, "Uh-huh."
that drives her crazy because she'll say something make a statement or something like that and now say uh-huh i mean that as yes i hear you but she takes that as it should be a yes and so she you get a little annoyed that it's that it isn't and you have
I'd be talking along and he'd say, uh-huh, oh my God, it took me so long to catch on. And I'd like look at him and I'd be like, because it's where an agreement wouldn't make sense. And so I'd be bewildered. And so I'd rephrase it and I might get an uh-huh or I might not get another uh-huh. And I'd be like, but you just said yes. And then I would get, no, I didn't.
And then we'd be locked in this insane argument of, no, I didn't say uh-huh, but you do. And when people say uh-huh and so on and so on, God awful million times. Most of what you described to me is either his shortcomings or your reactions to his shortcomings. It's always him ultimately who is responsible for what you're feeling. And the poor guy can't carry two people. Leave him out of the story.
Did you know that you were recruited for a play you didn't audition for? You don't feel it? Oh, I feel it. You do? Yeah, I do. I feel like I've apologized over and over again. I'm so sorry that I led you into this. Into what? Into everything that she's missing. That if she had not gotten stuck with me, married me, she would be so much better off.
because she would have all of these other things that she misses. So that's what I hear and that's what I end up feeling at some level. And what do you feel about you? That I'm okay. I'm fine the way I am. And that yes, there are things that I should, it would be nice if there were things that were different. It would be nice if I was more outgoing, more communicative. And I try to be. I'm still okay the way I am.
And I feel sad that she's stuck with that and feels that she's disappointed with it. And what's it like to be someone's disappointment for 20-something years? It's hard. Tell her. It's hard to be a disappointment. And yet at the same time, I think there's something there, some anger. I am who I am. Why does that have to be a problem for you, I guess, is what comes up.
There's an odd sense of over-responsibility, though, that is hand-in-hand with the criticism. Like, with sex, both with the premature ejaculation right from the honeymoon, like, the last thing you want to do is criticize a man for any problems like this. So I felt like I tried everything possible to make it better, and it
I felt like there was this huge burden of responsibility on me. To? To help him feel more comfortable sexually, to try to make things happen sexually. And then when the impotence started 10 or 12 years ago, it was even harder trying to be, I don't know, empathetic.
funny and sweet and seductive and gentle and non-demanding. And I mean, I ran the gamut over a decade. And when I completely burned out and thought, I just cannot be responsible for this. There's just no way I'm making this happen. There was a moment with one therapist that didn't work out well, where I realized in session that he felt terrible about me getting up and marching out of the bed.
And the therapist said to me, you know, stay, you gotta stay and be there with him and for him and talk to him. And what I was doing is I was going in the bathroom and I was burying my face in a towel and biting it and howling and crying, frustrated and not wanting to burden him with my sexual frustration because sex was always or so often a
coming to that moment where like we lose the erection and then we'd stop and we try things to get the erection back and then a whole over focus on that. And so I... And if the penis did not comply, then the sex was over? No, it was worse. It was wait 10 or 15 minutes and maybe just lay there together and then, then try it again. And I mean, at this point, I've, maybe we started playing and, and I was aroused and
Maybe he'd bring me to climax and that would be lovely. And then we would try to have intercourse and then things like the penis wouldn't stay hard so we couldn't have intercourse. So we'd kind of fumble at that point and maybe stop. And then there were times where 20 minutes later, like, can we try again? And it wouldn't.
It wouldn't work. It might get hard, but just briefly. And so we'd stop and then maybe 45 minutes I'd get woke up again. And I think it's hard now. And this went on for a period of years. I don't know. Do you remember that? I'm not sure if it happened all that often in terms of my waking you up. Repeatedly? Yeah. I remember it well. Yeah, I know. Explain a little bit. What do you know about your erectile difficulties? What's the issue? What's the issue? Yeah.
I don't know what impotence means. Okay? I think it's a horrible word, but I don't have a clue what it means. If you say to a woman, frigid, nymphomaniac, impotent to a man, these are such categoricals. They almost perform the sentence as you're uttering it.
I think that language shapes the experience. If you keep repeating, "You are impotent, you are impotent," or if you repeat, "You are always aggressive, you are always aggressive, you are so impatient, you are so impatient," you actually end up reinforcing the very reality that you're trying to undo. It is not useful. I think these words mean a lot of things in the cultural sense, but I don't know what they mean subjectively. Sorry.
So objectively for us, it means that I can't get enough of an erection hard enough to penetrate, keep going. And have intercourse. And have it, yeah. And when you masturbate? Doesn't get very hard. And you have been examined?
By a urologist? Yes. And is there an organic reason to it or is there no organic base to it? No obvious organic base to it. My testosterone level is a little on the lower side. But taking testosterone didn't really make much of a difference at all. Any Viagra? We tried Viagra, Cialis, Levitra. And it helps...
Some. Yes. But not completely. But it helped ten years ago and then it stopped helping. Yeah, as I've gotten older, it's gotten worse. There is an entire experience here, an entire communicative experience of sensuality, of pleasure, of connection, of emotion, of senses that is completely annihilated by the simple focus on potency or impotence
as the defining factor. And furthermore, a symptom is a symptom. A symptom is not the overall definition of a person. You may struggle with erectile dysfunction. You may have difficulty around impotence. You are not unimpotent. Anything that essentializes a person and takes a problem and makes it a definition is problematic.
There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince.
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Hey, Sue Bird here. I'm Megan Rapinoe. Women's sports are reaching new heights these days, and there's so much to talk about. So Megan and I are launching a podcast where we're going to deep dive into all things sports, and then some. We're calling it A Touch More.
Because women's sports is everything. Pop culture, economics, politics, you name it. And there's no better folks than us to talk about what happens on the court or on the field and everywhere else too. And we'll have a whole bunch of friends on the show to help us break things down. We're talking athletes, actors, comedians, maybe even our moms. That'll be a fun episode.
Whether it's breaking down the biggest games or discussing the latest headlines, we'll be bringing a touch more insight into the world of sports and beyond. Follow A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Can I do my own summation in a nutshell? I mean, with the physicality. I mean, the very, very short... I don't know if that's a good idea. Okay. It's his body. Is that okay? I'm complying, but it's not okay. Ask him.
Ask him what? If you can talk for him. That's talking for him? Like I haven't been in the bedroom for 20 years? Yes, you have been, and it's been miserable. But at the same time, there's a certain dignity about him being able to talk about what he struggles with, that he needs to be able to preserve. It's both ends. Every time you say his impotence, you make him more limp.
And every time sex is dictated by the penis, you are both completely missing the point. And if you're going to explore this, she needs to know that you get that it's a big deal for her. And that you're going to have to make more obvious. He says he was examined. When you asked, was he examined? There's been difficulty since day one and more significant difficulties
as of 12 years ago, and he was examined two months ago because he had a urinary tract infection. And the specialist who really did a great job asked these questions that brought all these other things to be discussed. So it was hard to sit and listen to that exam three months ago and then to hear him say yes, he was examined. So you didn't go for the entire 25 years before? No, that's true.
May I ask why? Because I've looked at it, I've read, I didn't see that there was anything to be gained. No? No. You've never heard of sex therapy? Well, we went. We went to Michael and that was it. And then we saw Andrew as well. So yes, we've gone to a sex therapist and didn't get anywhere with that.
But did they teach you any techniques for... For premature ejaculation, yes. And also for being able to hold erections? We've tried the medications... No, no, not medication. Okay. Breath and movement. Breath and move... No, I don't know about that. Okay. I want you to take her hand and just start playing with this hand and this forearm. Just play with it. And you can close your eyes too, if you want.
You can go hard, you can go soft, you can go fast, slow, back of the hand, but your entire focus, you are giving touch.
In the exercise of giving touch, you have a sense as to how people experience what they owe to the other, how much they feel obligated, how much they feel that they first need to give in order to deserve receiving something, how much they feel that they first need to please the woman, as he does, before he dares to actually experience his own pleasure, as if he has acquitted himself from a debt.
And in the experience of taking touch, it's really the ability to be inside one's own body, inside one's own movement, one's own breath, one's own voice, and to be able to do so without the self-consciousness that doesn't allow you to actually experience the fullness of your own pleasure and your own mounting sensations. Breathe from the belly. Breathe deep as you take in the sensation, the pleasure.
of using her body, her skin for yourself. Do you notice a difference? Do you? Yes. Yeah? What pops in my head is somebody's home that is resident and enjoying me. And to you? Did you hold back? Did you want more? I probably held back, yeah. Okay. So here's what I am thinking. Okay? And I would continue this exercise
for a good 20 minutes. Because I don't think you have ever given yourself full pleasure. I don't know if you've done it alone, but I know for sure you haven't done it in the presence of someone where you actually use her for your pleasure. Then your giving touch will be very different too. Generally, when you give touch, you're trying to be good.
You're not being a lover. You're being fair, you're being good, you're being a good husband, you're being dutiful. And all of these qualities are wonderful, but they suck in the bedroom. They're completely anti-erotic. You don't use your aggression and without that, you cannot get an erection. So I should be using my aggression more? Of course.
But aggression in French comes from the verb agir, to act, to strive, not to be violent. You so hold it all together and hold it all in and you freeze your body, which is the actual opposite of what you have to do. You have got to move. And the motion is a wave. And you can go as big as you want and with the breath because the breath will intensify it. It's not just breathing. It's haaah!
The sound of the breath. Any woman who pushes a baby out knows that without the sound, she can't push. It's the same pushing. You cannot have sex without a sound. Just breathing. That breath will let you hold and last longer like no Viagra will ever do.
This, if you continued to just play with her arm the way you did, and you just go on, and you've become really present in it and fully enjoy yourself, she'll come on her own. But I have to be enjoying myself. But you have to be enjoying yourself. At this point, it's all about your being inside of you. And you have spent 20-something years trying to be inside of her. And it won't work.
I ask every couple to send me thoughts, a letter, a feedback after the session. And so a few weeks later, I received a letter from the wife in which she said, my overall feeling remained more resigned than hopeful afterwards. Some couples come to see me and realize that they can have a much better relationship than the one that they have accepted to live in.
And some couples come to me and leave with the humility of realizing that this is the relationship that they're going to have and they are going to choose to stay in that. I think the most important thing for any couples therapist is to accept the choices that people make and their own self-determination and not to be neither the defendant of marriage at all costs or the advocate of divorce at all costs.
Life is complicated and so are people's choices.
The episode that you've just listened to was actually my first ever episode of "Where Should We Begin?" In fact, it was the pilot. It was the proof of concept. The one that was going to let us know, is there even something here that we can play with? Is this what we think it is? And so I discussed with Jesse, my producer, and Paul, my sound creator and engineer,
That first session, we actually went back to it. We share with you our thoughts, our experience, our lessons learned from that first episode. Jesse always tells the story where it sounds like
I was crying during the first session because I'm impotent. Yeah. And she'll say this among our colleagues. That is not true. And there's no way to come back from that story. But she told that about you? Yeah, she sort of infers it in the story where like the only way to come back is, I mean, what am I supposed to say? I have a history of inappropriate erections in the workplace. That's the only way. I do tell a story for laughs at your expense. That's actually true.
on Office Hours, on Apple Podcasts, in my subscription feed later this week. You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.
If you've been enjoying this podcast, here's a look into what else is happening at New York Magazine. I'm Corey Sika. I'm an editor at New York Magazine. I'm talking with Madeline Leung-Coleman. She's written for us about how we treat animals at the end of their lives, about the most difficult decisions that none of us ever want to make. And the big question we have is, who is this medical care for? Is it for them or is it sometimes for us? Hi, Madeline. Hi, Corey. Hi.
I'm really scared to talk about this topic on air because I don't want to start crying. That is the big hazard here for both of us, that we'll get very upset. As most people in America, we have had pets die and pets come and go and it's tough. It's true. And not only had them die, but had to make the decision about when they died. You said that vets, a vet said to you like nine times out of ten, people have waited too long.
Yeah, she says of the euthanasia cases that she sees, nine times out of ten, it's someone who's waited too long versus people who are bringing a pet in to be euthanized who she doesn't think would be.
The phrase you bring up is a phrase we've all heard, which is the phrase, you'll know when. But we clearly do not know when, and both of us have not known when in our lives. How should people who are struggling with this know when? There are actually some checklists that you can find online that basically help you evaluate your animal's quality of life. But ultimately, the only thing that actually prepares you to make the decision is having been through it before.
You were calling vets and pet owners and asking them about animal death and end of life and all this terrible stuff. What was the one thing you heard that surprised you? The person I talked to who used to work at a shelter found that when people would bring their dogs in to be euthanized, people who really loved their dogs but just couldn't afford to treat them or just need to put them down for whatever reason, they would all bring their dogs the same last meal.
A McDonald's cheeseburger. You are kidding me. What? Every single person, she said, basically would bring in a McDonald's cheeseburger for their dogs to eat. I'm kind of upset. They can have chicken bones finally. Which is what they all want to eat. That's all they want to eat is chicken bones. Let them have them. That's Madeline Leung Coleman and you can find her story on animals, ethics, and death in our print magazine in your own home, which you should subscribe to and receive there or at nymag.com.
backslash lineup. That's nymag.com slash lineup.
