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Sarah, do you have a favorite camp figure? Like, you know what John Waters says in that Simpsons episode? The tragically ludicrous, the ludicrously tragic. Yeah, I mean, I always go back to that Karlie Kloss tweet before she goes to the Met Gala where she's holding up the mirror and going, looking camp right in the eye, only to later show she did not dress camp at all. Like, no, terrible outfit, terrible outfit. And to me, that was camp.
Well, I've always thought of you as my favorite camp figure. You're like my Barbra Streisand. Like you're notoriously difficult and everyone on the show is afraid of you. And that's why they pay me the big bucks. Well, as ever, I ask because today we're looking at how two people transform themselves after public failures. Namely, how one of them turned towards the tragic and another towards the ludicrous.
Put on your best non-waterproof mascara, Sarah. It's time we finish the ballad of Tammy Faye. It's October 5th, 1989 in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's been two months since Jim Baker's trial started. The trial has been plagued by delays, including a devastating hurricane. But now it's finally come to an end. After two days of deliberation, the jury has made its decision.
The atmosphere around the courthouse is tense. Reporters press up against the door, elbowing to get enough space for their microphones and cameras. A few of Jim's followers hold up giant signs with supportive messages. Then, Jim arrives. He's 49 years old with dark graying hair and oversized 80s glasses. He holds Tammy's hand as they walk through the crowd. She's also in her late 40s, and she's wearing a cherry red pantsuit over a polka-dotted turtleneck that matches her bracelets.
Her short blonde hair is spiked up like a faux hawk. And of course, there's all that mascara, layered on like she's got a sponsorship deal. Sarah, take a look at this photo of them walking up to the courthouse. This is such a nutso photo, you know? They're surrounded by reporters, people with signs, flashing lights. He's looking at her smiling. Yeah. You know, and she has so much eyeliner on, you can't see the whites of her eyes, basically. Yeah.
Yeah, they look almost joyful. But Jim is facing 24 counts of mail fraud, wire fraud, and conspiracy. If convicted, he could be in prison for the rest of his life. And his fate is not looking good. About a month earlier, two of his associates were convicted of tax fraud. They were each charged $500,000 and sentenced to more than 17 years in prison. But their crimes were small compared to Jim's. So there's no way he's getting off easy.
During the trial, details came out about how he and Tammy misused donations and spent the money on things like an air-conditioned doghouse. At one point, Jim and Tammy's bodyguard testified that he was asked to spend the ministry's money buying bulk amounts of cinnamon rolls, but not because Jim wanted to eat them. He apparently just really liked the smell. Tammy denies this, but either way, lots of Jim and Tammy's former followers are pissed, and they want justice.
Just before noon, they get it. The judge announces that Jim has been found guilty on all 24 counts of fraud and conspiracy. After the verdict is delivered, Tammy Faye steps up to a bank of microphones outside of the courthouse. Jim's lawyer stands next to her, looking nervous. And then Tammy opens her mouth, and Sarah, she starts singing. Christ, all is rock. All other ground is sinking sand.
It's not over till it's over. She honestly sounds like an Amy Sedaris character or something. It's so funny. And it's just, okay, I guess saying like, that's your reaction? Yeah, I mean, I guess she's stressed because Jim is finally facing real consequences for decades of wrongdoing.
But he still steps out of the courtroom with a huge, obnoxious smile plastered across his face. And he brazenly maintains his innocence. Here he is addressing reporters. I went into the courtroom innocent of the charges against me. And I come out today still innocent of the charges against me. My faith is in God. And Romans 8, 28 says that all things work together for good.
Jim's lawyers announced they plan to appeal. But Jim's guilty verdict marks a crossing of the Rubicon for him and Tammy Faye. It'll threaten to destroy what they've spent their entire lives building, from their marriage to their ministry. Each of them hopes to salvage their legacy by reclaiming the spotlight in whatever way they can. From Wondery, I'm Saatchi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And this is Scamfluencers.
In our last episode, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker rose from humble beginnings as traveling preachers to massively influential Christian TV stars. Now, a series of scandals have brought them down, but these two are not ready to lose their faith or their grip on the spotlight. They each make a comeback to rival Lazarus. Tammy through a TV renaissance and Jim by doubling down on what he does best, scamming in the name of God.
This is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, The God Fraud, Part 2. Less than three weeks after his trial ends, Jim returns to the courthouse for his sentencing. The judge deciding Jim's fate is notoriously strict. His name is Robert Potter, but he's actually known as Maximum Bob because he always gives out maximum sentences. ♪
He fines Jim half a million dollars and sentences him to 45 years in federal prison. It's not the maximum sentence, but it is way more than anyone expected. If Jim ends up serving the entirety of his sentence, he'll likely die in prison. Maximum Bob justifies his harsh sentence by saying that religious people are, quote, sick of being saps for money-grubbing preachers and priests.
Jim probably feels like he got hit with a wrecking ball. His 19-year-old daughter, Tammy Sue, is sobbing. Jim tries to comfort her, but before he can say much, a federal marshal comes to take him away. Jim is taken to federal prison in Alabama. ♪
and later transferred to a facility in Minnesota. While there, he reads the Bible cover to cover for the first time in his life. I'm sorry, wait, he's never read the Bible. He was busy. I do feel like if you're building an entire empire on preaching, you probably should have read it cover to cover at least two or three times. Yes. I mean, the Bible does have a lot of pages, but you're right.
Meanwhile, Jim's lawyers are working on appealing his verdict. And Jim goes out and gets himself a high profile lawyer, Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz. Sarah, are you familiar with his clientele? Yeah, he's like the grossest guy. And he went on to represent OJ Simpson, Harvey Weinstein, and a guy called Donald Trump. Excellent. Well, as you can imagine, Alan's services don't come cheap. But
But Jim and Tammy's remaining followers help cover most of the costs. And it actually pays off. In February 1991, less than a year and a half after Jim went to prison, the court throws out his sentence and his half a million dollar fine.
It all boiled down to that scathing comment that the judge made about money-grubbing preachers. According to the appeals court, it showed that the judge was biased against Jim, which is a violation of Jim's due process rights. And now he is allowed to be resentenced. Jim is thrilled, but he knows he's got to be on his best behavior while in prison. So he volunteers at a hospice, raises money for United Way, and leads a class to help other inmates quit smoking. ♪
His strategy works. And by the time his hearing rolls around six months later, Jim's sentence is slashed from 45 years to 18, which makes him eligible for parole sooner. Now he could potentially leave prison in just four years. But Tammy isn't going to wait that long. She's ready to restart her life and break out on her own.
In March of 1992, about seven months after Jim gets his sentence reduced, Tammy writes a letter to her followers. She announces that a judge has officially granted her a divorce from Jim.
It's classic Tammy, very public and very theatrical. The announcement becomes national news and lots of outlets publish portions of the letter. Sarah, will you read a bit of it? Yeah, it goes, For years I have been pretending that everything is all right, when in fact I hurt all the time. I cannot pretend anymore. I have been suffering with high blood pressure, anemia, asthma, hyperventilation, all the doctor told me related to stress and severe nervous strain. ♪
Tammy claims she's leaving Jim because she's literally sick with worry, but she's also ready to move on to a new man. His name is Roe Mesner, and he's a Kansas construction magnate known for building churches. He actually helped build Heritage USA, Tammy and Jim's theme park. Both Jim and Tammy have considered him a close friend for years, but it seems like Tammy got even closer to him while Jim's been in prison. She marries Roe in 1993, and they honeymoon in Hawaii. ♪
But their honeymoon period doesn't last very long because about two years into their marriage, Roe is found guilty of bankruptcy fraud. And there's some real comic irony here. Tammy's second husband is about to go to prison a year after her first one gets parole. Because yeah, Jim Baker got parole after just four years. But Tammy is ready to take another big leap of faith. She's about to team up with a new man, someone who will help usher her into her next era of TV fame.
Tammy makes her return to television during the last week of 1995. The show is called The Jim Jay and Tammy Faye Show. But the Jim in question isn't her ex-husband. It's sitcom star Jim Jay Bullock. He's openly gay and Tammy is still very religious, which makes for a fun, odd couple dynamic. When the show debuts on Fox, it marks Tammy's first shift into mainstream entertainment.
She's been distancing herself from conservative Christianity for a while now. During the AIDS crisis, she used her platform to speak out on behalf of people living with HIV and AIDS. It ruffled feathers, including her ex-husband, Jims. But now that he's out of the picture, Tammy leans into her progressive image. On the Jim Jay and Tammy Faye show, she ditches the hymns and decides to poke fun at herself. It's cute. And sometimes her dynamic with this new Jim feels just like the old PTL club.
minus all the Bible verses. At the top of every show, Tammy walks onto the stage holding hands with Jim Jay. Tammy and Jim Jay exchange banter and get up to silly antics like playing mini golf on set. I've heard of a lady who killed her poodle doing this once. That is so scary, Tammy. That is really scary.
But Tammy and her new host quickly run into problems. First of all, producers keep telling Tammy that she cries and talks about Jesus too much. Tammy has her own complaints. She feels like Jim Jay talks about sex too much. The reality is that Tammy has much bigger problems. In March 1996, just a few months into making the show, she reveals that she has colon cancer. Tammy leaves her TV show to focus on her health.
She forgoes chemotherapy, but she has surgery to take out 14 inches of her colon. And through it all, she never loses her sense of self. On the Roseanne Show, Tammy later recalls. When I was in the hospital, I wouldn't let him take my makeup off because I said, at the worst time of your life, when you're coming out of anesthesia and you're feeling so terrible anyway, at least if you know you look halfway as decent, then you feel better about yourself.
As Tammy recovers from her surgery, she writes down her life story. It's published in a book called Tammy Telling It My Way in October 1996. The book covers her early years in a small town, being raised without indoor plumbing, her rise to global celebrity, and finally, her life as a cancer survivor. Sarah, take a look at the cover and please note I am using this as inspiration for my next book jacket. No notes. No notes.
I don't know if anything could be more of the time, you know? It's like a headshot. She's wearing as much makeup as you can, really. And you know what? I'm intrigued. Well, Tammy has endured tragedy after tragedy. She spent the last few years in and out of the least fun places on earth, courthouses and then hospitals. But now she's back on television and at the top of her game.
Her reinvention is in full swing, but Jim's is just getting started.
Almost exactly a year after Tammy's book comes out, Jim publishes one of his own. It's called I Was Wrong, the untold story of the shocking journey from PTL power to prison and beyond. It's a mouthful, but isn't it so, Jim? It is, and the cover really makes him look regretful, you know? He looks like a kid who's been caught, and he's like, I'm sorry, Mommy. Yeah, he looks like he did an oopsie, for sure. It's a book that's been published for a long time,
In his book, Jim writes about being released from prison a little more than a year earlier. It's been transformative for him, at least according to his own version of the story. We reached out to Jim, by the way, and through his representative, he declined to comment for this episode.
But he wrote in his book that reading the Bible cover to cover in prison led to an epiphany. He says he realized that the prosperity gospel isn't truly Christian. Sarah, can you read what he wrote? Yeah, he said,
a spiritual fantasy land where God's people are always blessed materially, physically, and of course, spiritually. Like a car salesman, I did not want anyone to see any defects in our product. I guess I'm unsure, like, is he saying that reading the Bible helped him figure out that, you know, actually, that's not how it works. And I can't believe I thought that. But also, I just kind of made it up and didn't even read the Bible. Yeah.
Yeah, it's a weird stance. The memoir is Jim's first foray back into the public eye after leaving prison. He's been spending most of his time ministering in Los Angeles, in neighborhoods he often refers to as, quote, the ghetto. Jim knows he's always worked best as one half of a duo, with a wife to make him look like a pious husband. So in 1998, he marries a Pentecostal woman named Lori Graham, who has her own comeback story.
She spent her teens partying, doing drugs, and hooking up, which, you know, hard same. But after an unhappy marriage, she eventually found God and became a minister. Lori is perfect for Jim's comeback. Sarah, she even looks like a toned-down, 17-years-younger Tammy Faye.
This is scary how much she looks like Tammy Faye. And I don't mean that in a, oh, like women of a certain age who... Like all white ladies look alike. Yeah, no, that's not it. Like same head shape. Yeah, very similar head shape. Just like very, very similar looking. And she still is like odd looking in a way, but it's not Tammy Faye levels. It's kind of like, all right, let's take some makeup off and make the hair a little flatter, but same...
weird energy emanating from your aura. Correct. Well, shortly after they get married, Jim and Lori move back to North Carolina, where they start plotting Jim's return to the Christian spotlight. And luckily for him, the only thing America loves more than seeing the self-righteous brought low is a redemption arc. And that's exactly what's propelling Tammy to a new wave of fame.
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It's the late 90s, and Tammy Faye is in remission. And she's also all over television. By the end of the decade, she's appeared on The Roseanne Show, The RuPaul Show, and she even guest stars on The Drew Carey Show as Mimi's mom. Don't tell me you're Mimi's mom. Yes. And you'll have to excuse me because I barely had time to put my face on. LAUGHTER
Tammy has always had a glittery, over-the-top personal style. But now she's a bonafide queer icon. Her appeal runs deeper than just a campy persona. Her brand of Christianity is accepting rather than judgmental. It's fun instead of strict. In 2000, RuPaul, who has become a close friend, narrates a documentary about her.
It's called "The Eyes of Tammy Faye," and in it, he christens her with a new nickname. - Tammy Faye is the first lady of religious broadcasting. - The documentary lovingly depicts Tammy as someone who, despite all those scandals, has spent her life cultivating genuine compassion for marginalized people. It also cements her legacy as a kind-hearted ambassador for a new kind of Christian.
As Tammy becomes a cultural icon on the left, Jim is moving in the opposite direction, entrenching himself even more firmly with the evangelical right. By 2002, Jim and his new wife, Lori, have carved out a nice life for themselves in Florida. They've also adopted five children.
Jim spends some time traveling and preaching, but he craves a more consistent, visible platform. His prayers are answered when he gets a call from a fan named Jerry Crawford. Jerry is a wealthy real estate developer from Branson, Missouri. He credits PTL with saving his marriage 20 years earlier and says he's been rooting for Jim ever since.
Jerry wants to see Jim get back on his feet and back on the airwaves. He says he's willing to throw all of his financial resources behind Jim's comeback, as long as Jim's willing to move his family to Branson. Jim decides he's got nothing to lose, so he and Lori pack up their family and head to Branson.
Jerry buys a house for the Bakers to live in and an old cafe to convert into a TV studio. They call it Studio City Cafe. And in January 2003, Jim returns to the airwaves. Live from Studio City Cafe in beautiful Branson, Missouri, it's the new Jim Bakers show. What the hell is Studio City Cafe? That doesn't evoke anything, first of all. You're in Missouri. Yeah.
Would it be better if they meant the Studio City in Los Angeles? Like, that's not a great place either. Well, I mean, that's where it's called Studio City for a reason, Sachi. What is... These people, their obsession with still getting attention. You know, what can you even do? I know. I know.
Well, the Jim Baker Show is a lot like the PTL Club. Jim and Lori bring on friends and fellow ministers to chat around their table. They hire various gospel and Christian folk singers to perform. But unlike Tammy, Lori never sings. And instead of constant teary telethons, the Jim Baker Show has more of a QVC vibe. Jim and Lori are constantly advertising things. Books, jewelry, paintings, flashlights, whatever will pay the bills.
but they're just getting started. Meanwhile, Tammy is about to get a hard dose of reality.
By the mid-2000s, Tammy is still making the rounds as a celebrity guest on various corners of television. In early 2004, she appears on the second season of The Surreal Life alongside rapper Vanilla Ice. Sarah, you already know that I watched all of this like eight times. Is there any chance you remember this show? Absolutely. I would watch it in the summers when I was visiting my aunt in America. It was on VH1. Yeah. A bunch of...
D-list celebrities in a mansion. The first show of its kind, I believe. Yeah. Big personalities, small shared space, you know, very classic TV stuff. And Tammy's charming as ever on the show. In one episode, producers direct her and her castmates to have a seance. My Bible says that psychics and those kind of people that we are not to have anything to do with.
I feel like Tammy's role on the show was kind of a strange woman from another world and another generation who was trying to understand all these heathens. And I found her very compassionate, actually, to everybody's lives. But almost immediately after her season of The Surreal Life airs, Tammy Faye goes on Larry King Live to share some devastating news. Her cancer has returned. And this time it's in her lungs and it's inoperable.
She starts spending most of her time at home near Kansas City, Missouri. Her daughter, Tammy Sue, takes care of her while she undergoes chemo. A little more than a year later, she appears on Larry King Live again. She looks gaunt, and her voice is hoarse and monotone. When Larry asks her if she believes she's going to heaven, she says, quote, Her husband, Roe, is by her side.
Her footprint on culture has been cemented, but Jim is still trying to shape his own legacy. He's turned all of his attention on prepping for the future, and it turns out it's full of disaster. In the early years of The Jim Baker Show, Jim and Lori claim to be operating on a shoestring budget with a volunteer staff and a makeshift studio. They're always talking about how they need more money to cover the show's costs, but they won't tell anyone how much money the show is bringing in each year.
Jim resorts to his old tricks, including hitting up his audience for money. He and Lori offer jewelry, mugs, and other gifts in exchange for donations. But Lori puts her own twist on the formula. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, she gets the bright idea to offer backpacks filled with disaster kits for a suggested donation of $150 each. ♪
We don't know exactly what was in the packs, but it's likely stuff like food and water, first aid kits, lanterns, spare batteries, your typical prepper fare. It's really funny to me that, like, for a lot of these evangelist types, the final grift is prepping. Yeah.
For end of life. Yeah. It's kind of like, all right, well, I know we can probably scare some people into thinking the end of the world is imminent. So let's get on that and sell vats of slop that will be in their garage until they die. Everybody can use some Soylent. And business seems to be good for Jim and Lori. In 2008, they moved from the house in Branson to a 600 acre compound near the Arkansas border. They call it Morningside. Morningside.
Jerry, their wealthy benefactor, spent $25 million building the sprawling campus for them. It's got a home, a television studio, and a theme park that looks like a giant indoor city, complete with a general store, a piazza, and a main street. The ceiling is even painted to look like a bright blue sky on a clear day. It is the fucking Truman Show over there. And
And Sarah, I know this speaks to both of us because we love chain restaurants and malls and freak shows. I would love if you could describe Grace Chapel, the centerpiece of Morningside. I mean, this looks like Christian Las Vegas, you know, it's meant to look like an outdoor little town square, but it's very much indoors and the ceilings are quite low.
Really low. Really low. And at the center, there's like this huge statue of Jesus. And right in front of it, I guess, is a pew for people to pray to him. I guess it makes sense. I don't know how Christianity works. So that's what I'm guessing. Well, Jim has somehow regained everything he lost with PTL in the 80s.
He's got a hot blonde wife and his own TV channel again. Plus, this time, he's got an entire town devoted to his beliefs. But unlike his early life with Tammy, there's an unmistakably dark tinge to this second act. Jim and Lori's new compound is basically a whole new version of Heritage USA. But there's a crucial difference between the two parks. Heritage USA was inspired by Disneyland, but Morningside seems more like Vegas meets Apocalypse Now.
After renouncing the prosperity gospel, Jim has embraced a new message. The world is ending soon, and only he can help his followers prepare for it. It's likely inspired, at least in part, by Lori's success with the Hurricane Katrina backpacks. So naturally, Lori dials up her disaster panic at every chance she gets. After massive typhoons sweep through the Western Pacific Ocean in 2011, Lori revives the emergency disaster kits and starts hawking them again.
Sarah, will you please read this quote from one of Lori's blog posts advertising her go bags? Yeah, she says,
That last sentence was in all caps. Thank you. Okay, I mean, valid questions. Listen, part of it I can see through, but this is also all happening during the Obama administration, which gives Jim and Lori plenty to get riled up about. They're convinced that Obama is a, quote, representative for Antichrist, and that Judgment Day is coming. Luckily, they have just the thing to help.
A series of plastic buckets, each containing 18 freeze-dried meals. And most of them are priced at more than $100 each. Sarah, take a look at the screenshot from the Jim Baker show. Yeah, I mean, this is disgusting. It looks like a Home Depot paint bucket. And it says, ugh, it says tasty pantry. And you know what? He does not look like he's ever going to eat this. The look on his face is one of total emptiness. Yeah.
Yeah, things are hollow over there. Food options include a quote, Asian style teriyaki kit with freeze dried beef and a beef flavored vegetarian meat substitute. There's mac and cheese, creamy potato soup, creamy stroganoff, chicken breast chunks and chocolate pudding. Here, I would like you to take a look at what these meals look like. Look at them.
This is some of the most disgusting slop I've ever seen in my life. If I gave this to a dog, I would do it if I hated the dog only. This is dog food for a dog you hate. The only recognizable meal to me is the bright, bright orange mac and cheese that looks so watery. This is sickening. I can't look at this anymore. Keep going. It's the color of buffalo chicken sauce. I would rather...
die in whatever apocalypse than eat soft food like this in a basement. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you living for at that point? Well, Sarah, it actually gets better because they bring on a singer to promote the food buckets on their show. Oh, I've got powdered food for a stormy day.
Beets and spinach and blueberry and strawberries. Jim Baker has found a fun new niche, and he's about to get a massive boost from someone a lot like him, but just way more powerful. Ooh, ooh, ooh.
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When Donald Trump gets elected president in 2016, Jim is elated. He says he believes Trump was called by God to serve the country. But Jim can't rejoice for long. His business model relies on him inciting panic amongst his followers. So he finds a new spin for this current moment. He says that this is the calm before the storm and that something bad is brewing.
In early 2020, his so-called prophecy seems to come true when the pandemic starts. Jim takes advantage of this by selling bottles of colloidal silver. He calls it Silver Solution, and he markets it as a cure for COVID-19. He sells the solution in packs of four with the suggested donation of $80 to $125. But colloidal silver has no known medical uses, and it contains no essential nutrients. And in rare cases, it can actually turn your skin blue.
I do know that it can turn your skin blue, not from personal experience, but there was like a guy who was on TV a lot and he was on the Today Show once. Yeah, he was on Oprah. Oh, was he on Oprah? Yeah, his skin was fully blue. I know exactly who you're talking about. Then he died. Oh my God. He had to go on every show to be like, don't eat silver, you'll turn blue. And that's why I haven't. That's why I haven't. That's literally why I haven't. Well, ironically, the Trump administration that Jim once praised is now going after him.
The FDA and the FTC send stern warnings to Jim's team. They tell him that he's violated the law by selling fake COVID-19 treatments, and they tell him to cut it out immediately. Then the state of Missouri sues him to get him to stop selling this junk on air.
In June 2021, he settles the suit and he agrees to pay $156,000 in restitution. Three months later, he settles a similar lawsuit filed by the state of Arkansas. But Jim and Lori continue to promote products aimed at surviving the apocalypse. Like a Christmas variety bucket containing 17 dehydrated foods for just $99.99. You just add water. Jim has also recently relaunched the PTL Club with Lori.
Memberships, which can run up to $100 a month, include archival content, recorded sermons, and emergency preparedness teachings. Jim Baker has spent the better part of 50 years in the spotlight, from his prosperity gospel past to his doomsday prepper present. He's found love with two blonde women who lend him their support and charm. And he's taken advantage of millions of people's Christian faith to sell them junk that he says will bring them the health and the wealth that they deserve.
If there's a scamfluencer's heaven, which is basically hell, he will surely be there manning those gates. ♪
Sarah, that's it. That's the ballad of Jim Baker and Tammy Faye. What do you think? It's always so interesting seeing how these mechanisms work within megachurches and community type scams. You know, it's always the same process no matter what. Yeah. There is a kind of redundancy to like all religious scams. They all kind of sound the same. Yeah.
And, you know, if we're talking about how megachurches function, for quite a long time, this was not a scam. So it is so crazy to me that it got out of hand in this way when it was...
pretty maintainable. And if they had just played the long game, I really don't think this would have happened. I think some of it is like the mistake was that Jim so loudly talked about the prosperity gospel, whereas like a lot of other preachers who sort of work in the same space are not so loud about like
I'm very rich. Do you know what I mean? It makes people notice you more. And then there was like that newspaper that wrote like 600 articles. And it's like they had to do all that work to start to like tear him down. Yeah, he didn't really play the game in the right way. Because again, so many of these megachurch pastors are filthy rich. And also...
I feel like they're strategic enough to have read enough of the Bible to bring up other stuff. How do you feel about Tammy? After knowing like at least this story about like that particular husband and then what she ends up doing, how do you feel about her now? I don't think she's this terribly rotten, evil person. It sounds like she got really caught up in this life, you know, having grown up the way she did. But I don't know. I don't really feel that bad for her. I mean, like,
Yes, it was her husband. She didn't have a lot to do with the day-to-day of the scam. But to me, it's kind of like the ignorance wasn't really an excuse. Yeah. I think that's fair. Her good nature and how obviously outwardly emotional and caring she was to me doesn't make up for the fact that like she was a participant in this. Like this was built
because of her allure with Jim. Yeah. You know, it wasn't something that just happened around her. I agree with you. You're right. And like, I obviously don't, I don't like to give anybody a pass.
But I do also feel like she believed the wrong person and the wrong things, but she did believe them. And then I think after she realized she was wrong, she was sort of trying to take time to reassess and reshape her worldview and like fit back into a different zeitgeist. I think that makes her an interesting figure. I don't necessarily have like
a world of pity for her. But I do feel sorry for any woman who just gets like crushed by her shitty husband. Definitely. I definitely feel bad for that. But also it's like, you know, being interesting kind of made it seem like there was an innocence there because she was very childlike and can be. The weeping helped in her favor for sure. Yeah. And I'm just kind of like, yeah, she was a true character. There's a reason why she was famous. Yeah. But to me, that doesn't
necessarily separate her from her complicity in this whole thing. But I do love her as like a pop culture figure. Oh, she's incredible. Yeah, she's incredible. She's like a true weirdo. And I love when someone has like a look they never abandoned. She was that Aresley Serena with that haircut. Yes. With that damn haircut. It's sad her life didn't go a different way because she was clearly very talented. She was clearly like
Very charismatic, but, you know, it just happened the wrong way and I feel bad for that. Doesn't it feel right for a scamfluencer as hell that Jim is still alive and Tammy is not here? Yeah, to me, it's just like,
How do you go through all that? Go to prison, see your life crumble, you know, go from the top to the bottom and all. And then still kind of just like now you're selling slop. He's still scamming, man. Rotten people live longer. I'm going to be here forever. You know what? Maybe he's still alive because he's eaten that. Honestly,
Me saying that is making me gag. Like, it doesn't take a lot to make me feel sick, but thinking about that disgusting food and those pictures of that, like, watery mac and cheese. You don't want to buy Jim Bakker's Soylent? No. It looked like you go to Popeye's and they're giving you expired sides.
Sarah, you and I have talked about this, that if there was ever like a zombie infestation, I would just like be, I'm ready to go. Like I'm good to die. I'm ready to go. I'll fight a little bit, but you get, you got me, you got me. I would walk outside and be like, let's go. I'm good. This is unnecessary. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot I would do before eating that slop. Yeah. I'll tell you that much. Yeah. Yeah.
If the end of the world is happening the way these freaks say it is and that, like, you know, the shit hits the fan, do not align yourself with this man. He's not going to help you. First of all, he's weak as hell. Ha ha ha!
He's going to fight for you. He survived more than one would guess, frankly. I just don't think he would be the person I would want to align myself with power-wise. And you know what? There's no way that slop won't give you diarrhea. And the last thing you want in that scenario is to be having diarrhea. Listeners, don't forget, if there's an apocalypse and you have diarrhea, things are not going to go your way. Yeah, don't eat the slop. Don't eat the slop, guys. Don't eat the slop.
This is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, The God Fraud Part Two. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at scamfluencersatwondery.com. And a reminder that our Scamfluencers merch is now live at wonderyshop.com. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were The Second Coming of Televangelist Jim Baker by Kelsey McKinney and BuzzFeed News, the book The God Fraud Part Two,
P.T.L., The Rise and Fall of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker's Evangelical Empire by John Wigger and Charlie Shepard's reporting for The Charlotte Observer. Izzy Umpeel wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Saatchi Cole and Sarah Hackey. Sarah Enni is our story editor and producer and Eric Thurm is our story editor. Fact-checking by Gabrielle Jolet. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia.
Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeze On Sync. Our coordinating producer is Desi Blaylock and our managing producer is Matt Gant. Janine Cornelow and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peary. Our producers are John Reed, Yasmin Ward, and Kate Young. Our senior producers are Ginny Bloom and Jen Swan. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman, Marsha Louis, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery. Wondery.
If you like Scamfluencers, you can listen to every episode early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
