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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or Apple Podcasts. A note to our listeners, today's episode includes discussions of mental health, self-harm, suicide, child abuse, sexual assault, and violence. Please listen with care. Sachi, I have a question for you. If you're ever going through it, how likely are you to turn to YouTube or TikTok for advice? No, I wouldn't do it.
I am in the same boat. As you know, TikTok does scare me. To be fair, there are legit therapists and professionals who do guide people to seek help. But the person I'm about to introduce you to is safe to say not one of those people. Yeah, I figured. Well, this woman alleges to have a supernatural gift she uses to heal the world and of course becomes super famous along the way.
In November 2013, a striking willowy woman in her 30s with cat-like eyes and long, dark hair strides onto a stage in London. She's wearing glittery sandals and a dress that looks like a watercolor painting. She sits down in one of two chairs in the center of the stage, flanked by flowers and healing crystals. She's grinning from ear to ear, soaking up the applause from the crowd of more than 400 people.
This is the woman who will come to be known as Teal Swan. Teal is a spiritual teacher with a huge online following, and her most dedicated fans pay to see her in person at workshops like this one. She's a natural on stage. She's warm, a good listener, and she makes people laugh.
During these events, Teal invites a few people up to have one-on-one conversations with her in front of the entire audience. She leads the volunteers through conversations about painful and personal things, their fears and trauma, the ways they feel stuck or lonely, or even want to give up on life entirely.
Teal makes them feel like they're a part of a community, surrounded by others who struggle with similar challenges. It's kind of like group therapy, but with hundreds of strangers. ♪
Yeah, I mean, people really love public psychotherapy in like a kind of maudlin, performative format. So it makes sense that people are really into this. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a way to feel less alone with your feelings and trauma, which I understand. Yeah. Well, Teal's on stage for six hours during this session in London. But to her, it feels like just a few minutes.
When the workshop is over, the crowd swarms her. But outside of her tribe, critics accuse her of running a cult. They say she might be encouraging clients to believe in false memories of trauma and abuse, which Teal denies. And if that sounds a little intense, well, Sachi, it's only the beginning. Teal's on a mission to heal the world. And the consequences? They might be deadly. ♪
From Wondery, I'm Sarah Hagee. And I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers. In this episode, we're diving into the story of Teal Swan, a spiritual leader perfectly suited for the internet age. She may not be a household name, but she's built an online empire with millions of followers. This is a two-part series, and it covers a ton of ground.
from the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s to the girl boss feminism of the 2010s. Teal's story is a study in self-mythology, memory, and the very nature of reality itself. This is The Memory Maker, Part One. Teal's origin story is really intense, and it plays a big role in her mythology.
In the 1980s, she grows up in a small town in Utah. And she feels different. She's not Mormon like most of the other kids.
But there's another, more complex reason why she struggles to fit in. She can see, feel, and hear so much more than everyone else around her. She describes it later in an interview with a local show called Park City TV. I was kind of born seeing the things that I see. I don't see air as negative space. It all looks like energy fields that are running into each other. So to me, from my perception, I'm breathing in your energy right now and vice versa.
Teal feels alone, so she turns inward. She even invents a secret language of hieroglyphics to use in her diary. Her parents try everything they can think of. They take her to psychologists and psychiatrists and even a psychic. But nothing really helps.
One thing that does seem to help is spending time with animals. So when Teal is around six years old, her parents start having her spend time with a local veterinarian she calls Doc. Doc's into something called quantum healing and other new age stuff.
Teal's parents hope he can help her manage her extra sensory gift. But Doc winds up being far from helpful. And actually, Teal claims he abuses her. She says Doc brought her into a satanic cult called the Blood Covenant and exposed her to horrific repeated sexual, emotional, and psychological abuse throughout her childhood and teenage years.
Teal alleges that he forced her to get three abortions, which he performed because he got her pregnant, and that he tells her he's her real father and that she's a demon. She says Doc threatened to kill her family and her horses if she told anyone what was happening. Through their lawyer, Teal and her parents declined to comment on any of the allegations in this story. To be clear, Doc has denied abusing Teal, and he's never been charged with any kind of crime related to these allegations.
Some of the things Teal says happened to her as a child are so graphic and disturbing that at times, some of them seem pretty implausible. For example, in an interview on the Shadowland Voyagers podcast, Teal says Doc knew a funeral director who helped him do all sorts of gruesome things to her. He'd take me into the mortician's office late at night. And when I was about, I'd say, eight years old, he ended up sewing me into a body and leaving me there for about 12 hours.
He sewed her into a body? I mean, yes, that is what she says. Yeah. I have several questions about the feasibility of such an act. I don't doubt that he's abusing her, but what she is describing is nonsense. Yeah. I mean, I have actually been thinking about this for weeks. Great.
And it doesn't make more sense the more you try and make sense of it. I'll just say that much. That is promising for my mental breakdown that I will have later in this episode. Well, by the time she's a teenager, Teal is incredibly depressed. She starts cutting and tries to take her own life. And though Teal's story is horrific, it leads to some pretty big questions. And someone from Teal's past raises even more questions about Teal's origin story.
Diana Hanson-Ribera is nine years old when she meets Teal. They bond over their mutual love of animals. In a picture from that time, Diana's blonde with rosy cheeks and a big smile. She moved to Teal's neighborhood after her parents' divorce, and she's in a really bad place mentally.
Diana was interviewed on a podcast called Mormon Stories, and she says that at a sleepover early on in their friendship, Teal offers her shots of Irish cream. She also says that Teal showed her disturbing pornography, including hardcore BDSM and bestiality.
Teal declined to comment on this, and Diana did not respond to our request for comment. But Diana told Mormon Stories that Teal seems to enjoy testing her boundaries. She almost seemed like she was excited to see the shock effect it had on me just because I was so disturbed by these things. They scared me. She's like, oh, you wouldn't believe how dark the world is. ♪
I don't want to diagnose anybody because obviously I don't know anything, but to be this young and to be pushing boundaries like this with like a friend you made is kind of textbook for kids who've been abused. It's clear that Teal has learned this from somewhere. She's just a little kid too. Yeah, it's definitely very complicated.
Diana's depressed. She struggles with an eating disorder. And when she's around 12 or 13, she cuts herself for the first time. Afterwards, she goes to Teal's house and tells her what she's done. And Teal points to a possible reason for Diana's mental health struggles. Maybe she's been abused. Diana says she doesn't have any memory of being abused. But she worries. What if she just blocked it all out?
So she goes to the bishop at her church. That opens up a whole can of worms. Suddenly, Diana's being interviewed by a counselor and the police get involved. Ultimately, she says they conclude she hasn't been abused, but the whole ordeal is traumatic. Diana's reminded of this incident years later when she hears Teal's story about Doc, the ritual abuse, and the satanic ceremonies.
Diana says on Mormon Stories that if someone had abducted Teal from her home in the middle of the night, she probably would have known. It's so improbable. And I had sleepovers at her house. She was never getting these calls to, like, magically wake up at 3 a.m. and leave. Again, Teal declined to comment on Diana's allegations. Diana doesn't discount the possibility that Teal might have experienced some kind of abuse growing up, but likely not the satanic ritual kind.
As they get older, Teal and Diana lose touch. But Teal's about to find her first follower, someone who believes her story, not just about her abuse, but also about her special abilities. A few years later, in the spring of 2003, Blake Dyer comes home and is shocked to find Teal in his bathtub. She's covered in blood from self-harm injuries. She's 19, the same age as Blake, and she's run away from home.
She apparently broke into his house through a window. Blake is tall, with shoulder-length blonde hair. He and Teal met at a party recently, and they had an instant connection. He brought her to his house once to show off his hacky sack collection. Now, Blake helps Teal clean up and bandage her cuts. She tells him she came here because she didn't know where else to go, that he's the first person she can really trust. And he says she can crash with him as long as she wants.
Teal is really in like a trauma vortex her whole life, it seems like. Yeah. As they get to know each other better, Teal tells Blake about her childhood in the Blood Covenant cult and her abuser, Doc. She says Doc had a habit of drugging her with ketamine to keep her from rebelling, but that he messed up the dosing, which left her clear-minded enough to run away.
They move in together and pretty soon start dating. But ultimately, they decide they're better off as friends. They keep living together and remain super close. Blake feels like Teal is the first person to really see him. She's his family. He can't imagine walking away from her, so he decides he'll stay by her side, even if it means her needs come first.
About a year later, when Teal is around 20 years old, she starts seeing a therapist named Barbara Snow. Barbara's got blonde feathered hair and she seems totally different from the cold clinical psychologists Teal saw as a kid.
She's warm and kind, and she cries when Teal tells her her story. I actually have a picture of her. Sachi, could you please describe Barbara? Oh, Barbara is from the 80s. She's got a real, like, there's a lot of hairspray in this hair. She's got that cockatiel look.
sort of hair part on the top. I mean, she looks like a nice lady. I don't know. She looks like school counselor. I would probably tell her something intimate and uncomfortable about myself in the seventh grade. Yeah. But Barbara's practices are much darker than her appearance would suggest. She was actually a major part of a phenomenon called the satanic panic. Sachi, what do you know about the satanic panic?
A lot. I know that it was kind of this cultural movement that started in the 80s where there was a lot of fear and anxiety around satanic cults. And they were specifically tied to a lot of kids having these false recovered memories, you know, quote unquote memories of being sexually abused, usually in a cult setting. Yes.
Around this time, the satanic panic is totally mainstream, and it really takes hold in Utah, even after the FBI releases a report that finds no evidence of a cult sacrifice happening anywhere in the U.S. But Barbara believes ritual abuse is a major problem. In the 1992 documentary, Promise Not to Tell, she says she was even involved in counseling victims in at least one of the cases. We had as many as 12 children
who were talking about extremely aberrant sexual behavior that included multiple perpetrators with a high proportion of women, the use of blood, with blood being smeared on the children and them drinking blood, feces and urine, their collection and the passing of it in a circle.
I know that all of this at the time was legitimately scary to people. And I get it. It was a long time ago. People had different access to information. But at the same time, like, I worship the devil and all I'm going to do is like drink some poop. Come on. I'm worshiping the devil. I'm going to do way cooler things than eat poop. Also, the way she's talking about it was like the use of blood.
blood with blood being smeared on the children, them drinking feces and urine. And we're kind of like, are you enjoying saying these words out loud? Yeah. And like a lot of other therapists at this time, Barbara believes that her clients have gone through something so traumatic, they've repressed all memories of it. Her role is to help them remember their abuse so they can heal and bring the perpetrators to justice.
But the concept of repressed memories is controversial. Researchers and clinicians aren't even sure it's possible to repress memories. The debate is so heated in clinical psychology circles, it's called the memory wars. And a recent study showed that despite a ton of empirical evidence that repressed memories are, at best, scientifically questionable, more than half of clinical psychologists still believe in it.
There's also evidence that it's possible to implant false memories, which is what the FBI suggests may have happened in the Satanic Panic. In their report, they say that overzealous interveners push a specific narrative of what they think happened when questioning kids. These are basically well-meaning adults who ask leading questions and the kids make things up to match those stories. Then they start to think that's what actually happened to them.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if her press memories are feasible or not. I'm not a psychiatrist. I don't know anything, but...
I do think it's easier to implant a false memory in a child than have a child like fully repress an incredibly traumatic experience like the ones that are being described here. Yeah. And you're doing it with the most vulnerable people who are little kids who are being asked like, hey, did somebody touch you over and over again? You know, I can see it. Yeah. I mean, it is clear that Barbara's practices are based on shaky theory, at least. Right. Right.
But when Teal comes to see her in the mid-2000s, she helps her process her childhood abuse. Teal later says that Barbara only helps her recover a few memories about Doc. The rest were already there. With Barbara's help, she's putting her life back together and finally feels strong enough to speak about what she's been through.
Her story will serve as the backbone for her spiritual teachings, a badge of suffering and transcendence that will inspire millions to listen to her message.
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After seeing Barbara for a few years, Teal, now in her early 20s, decides to contact the police about her childhood abuse. She actually spoke with the cops a few years earlier, but when they said they'd have to involve Doc in the investigation, Teal told them to hold off. She's still scared of him. But now, she says she's ready to move forward. Teal gives the police her diaries as evidence of what was happening to her at that time.
But some passages are written in that special hieroglyphic language she created. And the police are basically like, we can't read this. And when they perform a medical exam, they don't find any evidence of ritual abuse. There's no scarring or marks that match with Teal's descriptions of what happened to her.
This is sort of the strange thing about this story. I do think that somebody abused Teal as a child, but she's clearly in some space, even in her adulthood, where she feels like she has to tell the most bombastic version of an abuse story. And it physically isn't really that possible. There's no physical markings and there would be based on what she's talking about. Yeah. Well, that's...
Then the police start looking into Barbara Snow and discover her history with ritual abuse cases. By this point, there's a more widespread understanding that a vast network of murderous satanic cults is not actually a thing. And around this time, Barbara Snow is placed under investigation by the state of Utah's Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing.
She's allegedly been treating some of her own relatives, which is a huge therapist no-no. And allegedly, she's been giving them false memories of being sexually abused. At one point, she goes to a relative's house to allegedly destroy a computer with a baseball bat. So Barbara goes on voluntary probation and the state drops the investigation. We actually looked up her license for social work in Utah and...
At the time of this recording, it is still active. Teal's no longer seeing Barbara, but she's learned some crucial lessons about memory and healing, and she's ready to start sharing what she knows with the world. A few years later, when Teal's in her mid-20s, she starts spending a lot of time at a New Age bookstore in Salt Lake City called The Cosmic Spiral.
It's a cozy spot full of crystals, tarot cards, singing bowls, and books about spirituality. Teal does energy healing sessions here and develops a following. By now, she's married to a man named Mark Scott, and they have a son named Winter. Having a kid changes everything for Teal. She later writes that her son was born with a crystal aura, which she believes only belongs to people with innate extrasensory abilities.
She later says she realizes that if she wants to help her son embrace his abilities, she first has to embrace her own. It's a total light bulb moment, and it gives her a renewed sense of purpose. Teal wants to tell the world about her past, share what she's learned, and hopefully help others who are struggling. Also, around this time, Teal writes her first book, The Sculptor in the Sky. It's about the universe and how to achieve happiness,
She goes on Park City TV to promote it. This book, The Sculptor in the Sky, is basically an informative book about the universe and the way that it works in terms of the energy that is making up all that is us.
And it goes on to explain why happiness is an important commodity, not just for people individually, but for the universe at large. Oh, and she's selling some original artwork. She calls them frequency paintings and says they have vibrations that can heal people. Here's a picture of one of the paintings. Sachi, can you describe it? This is very ugly. And if anybody's vibration looks like this, I do not want to spend time with that person. It...
appears to just be a cataclysm of primary colors. It looks like a child, like just colored in a bunch of lines. Yeah. It's these symmetrical, geometric, very, very colorful pieces of art. And yeah, it looks like something like you do in grade eight art and your teacher's like, wow, good eye. Yeah. Well, Sachi, these sell for up to $1,000. Wow.
And some people love them, including a married couple named John and Wesley Waynesgaard. John has floppy gray hair and a thick gray mustache, and Leslie has dyed red hair and a toothy grin. They look like they could be Teal's parents' age, and they're deep into new age stuff. They believe in Teal's message and actually help her launch her career by organizing her first spiritual workshop.
They pay for the venue and even take tickets at the door. There's only about 20 people in the audience. Batil is poised and confident. At 27 years old, she's ready to step into the spotlight and spread her beliefs. And she's about to find the perfect medium for her brand of self-directed teachings, the internet.
In 2011, Teal starts making videos for this new website called YouTube, where she posts about, well, kind of everything. Hello, everyone. I figured a good topic for today would be energy vampirism. Weight gain is an external reflection of a deep internal problem. Today, in response to popular requests, this video is going to be about autism. Christmas has become our excuse to come into alignment with philanthropy, with demonstrations of love.
Some of the videos getting the most traffic are ones where she talks candidly about suicide and self-harm. Like this video called, What to Do If You Are Suicidal. Right now, you do not have proof that Earth is anything but suffering, and you have no reason to believe that it will get better. There is nothing wrong with you for feeling this way. A lot of people land on this video through search results or algorithm recommendations. Because it turns out, Teal is really, really good at social media.
To help understand Teal's rise, we reached out to Jennings Brown. He's a journalist and the host of the Gateway podcast, All About Teal Swan. He first learned about Teal when he was going through a hard time and was spending hours on YouTube.
YouTube kept recommending these videos by this woman staring deep into the screen and was very magnetic and in like, you know, the hypnotic background. And I was just very fascinated. He's right that Teal's videos are kind of like woo-woo ASMR. And Sachi, I need to show you this video. It's from five years ago. And it says, Can you sell your soul to the devil? Should you protect your soul from demons?
It's just kind of like a very weird close-up frame of her basically shoulder up speaking to the camera with like a green screen graphic. She's definitely not trying to be trendy. No, she's not. She's trying to be enticing, which I kind of think is working. I feel like if I was particularly lost on a given day, I would watch this whole thing and try to find meaning in it. Yeah, absolutely.
Jennings says that Till's advantage was in getting on YouTube early and covering a lot of ground. Here's this example of somebody who was kind of using the tools of the internet to build a new brand of spirituality. It was more than just an influencer. It was more than just a spiritual guru. Jennings says Till uses search engine optimization, or SEO, to appear higher on search results and to target vulnerable people looking for videos on sensitive topics like diversity,
depression, addiction, and suicide. She was really perfect for kind of that YouTube algorithm in that no matter what you were looking for, there was probably a Teal Swan video about it, and especially videos about things that a lot of people didn't want to talk about. Also, we have to remember that Teal has no real qualifications as a mental health expert.
She's not licensed and doesn't have a degree in psychology, but her online influence is exploding. More people are finding her content. And the story of her traumatic past helps her build trust and position herself as an authentic expert in human suffering. But soon, her blunt approach to super sensitive topics is going to crash into real life.
In the year after joining YouTube, Teal also sees clients in real life for healing sessions at her house. And she spends a lot of time with Leslie Wainsgaard, the friend who helped her put on her first workshop. Leslie and her husband, John, have become totally devoted followers. But Leslie's not doing well. Teal's been helping her uncover some repressed memories. And Leslie comes to believe that she was abused by her own father.
Leslie's father passed away several years ago, but her mother reportedly denies the allegations. Jennings spoke with Leslie's husband, John, for the Gateway podcast. And John says Leslie has a family history of mental illness and has been taking antidepressants, but she's not happy about it.
She struggles with some of the drug's side effects. And according to John, she might also feel like the medicine is blocking her spiritual development. So John says she stops taking them.
After that, she says she becomes, quote, literally catatonic, spending all day in bed and barely eating. John later told Jennings on the Gateway podcast, Because Teal can see these things, she said she'd never seen a human being that's still alive who so badly wants to get out of the body.
I mean, it's pretty heavy stuff. Even the language of it, a human being that's still alive whose soul so badly wants to get out of the body to me is like, that is just so far gone. It's like she's basically saying, I've never met someone more suicidal in my life. I guess. Yeah. I don't know if this is helpful in any context. Well, one day in May 2012, John says he discovers Leslie in her bed, not breathing.
After struggling with suicidal feelings, she's taken her own life. John is shocked and heartbroken, so he calls a person he trusts most for spiritual guidance, Teal. But Teal doesn't answer. She's out of cell phone range on a trip to the desert to watch an eclipse. We can't say why Leslie took her own life. John believes Teal had nothing to do with it, and he's still very devoted to her.
But it is clear that Teal is working with vulnerable people and encouraging them to fixate on trauma from their past. People are flocking to her, online and in real life. Teal has enormous power over her devoted followers, and she is not afraid to use it.
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Jared's in his late 20s with feathered, dirty blonde hair, and he feels miserable. He recently got divorced and lives far from his ex and their young daughter. He's quit his job, and he feels suicidal. That's when he Googles Utah Spiritual Guide and finds Teal Swan. He looks up all of her teachings online and even reads her book,
We interviewed Jared, and he says he was immediately hooked. I was like, oh, I need help, and her frequency paintings will heal you if you have them. Look at them. Like, okay, so I went to buy a frequency painting and talked with her for a few hours. And she was just like, oh, there's so much you just don't know yet. You're just beginning your journey.
A few months later, Jared says he goes to see her in Park City, Utah, where she's living in an intentional community with her husband, Mark, their kid, Winter, business partner slash ex-boyfriend slash friend, Blake, and some other followers and volunteers who are helping spread her teachings. Jared says he tells Teal just how desperate he is for help, and she gives him a private healing session for around $150.
Jared says that Teal presses her hands on his stomach and does some stuff to his chakras. He says that the whole thing is confusing. On the one hand, Teal's paying attention to him. She's asking him deep, probing questions about how he's feeling, the kind of questions that Jared's been craving. Teal gets him to open up, and it feels really good.
It's a release. But on the other hand, Jared says that Teal is also lying next to him, pulling up his shirt and playing with his stomach. It's uncomfortable. It feels like she's crossing a boundary. He wonders...
Coming onto him? Yeah, something is awry. Well, Jared says Teal also talks about trying to grow her business. So he volunteers to build her a new website for free. He truly believes in Teal's mission, which he says is to raise the vibration of the entire planet. Pretty soon, Jared moves in with Teal and her family.
Teal and her husband Mark have their room, Blake has his room, and Jared sleeps on a cot in Blake's room. There are maybe four other Teal followers who live in a nearby apartment. Finally, Jared has a community and a sense of purpose. Teal makes him uncomfortable sometimes, but it also seems like she really cares about him, and he thinks she knows how to heal him. So he goes all in.
He believes that she's going to make him a better person and that they're going to save the world together. But soon, Jared sees the darker side of his new guru.
Jared and Teal start spending a lot of time together building her website. And he says she keeps getting touchy-feely with him. Jared's confused. He's drawn to Teal, but she's still married to Mark, and they all live together. Jared says he tells Teal the cuddly stuff makes him feel awkward, but he doesn't want to be a cuddly-feely.
But Teal doesn't seem to listen. This is like textbook harassment. That's exactly what it sounds like. I imagine it was maybe tough for Jared to fully recognize because I think for men, it's a little tougher, especially when women are doing it because they're conditioned to think like, this is great. I'm so lucky this girl's into me. And on top of it, Jared isn't like, it sounds like a really desperate place. He really needs help. And so the person he's turned to for help is weaponizing that intimacy in a way that feels so unfair. Yeah.
Yeah, that's pretty spot on. And it doesn't end there. Jared says that Teal keeps escalating things with him. Teal begins to like say, we're meant to be together. Like, how come you won't be with me? And this is supposed to happen. And you're the one for me. You've always been the one. I've been waiting for you for across all timelines. Jared begins to think it's his mission in life to be with Teal.
But Teal's husband, Mark, isn't having it. He kicks Jared out of the house, and Jared goes to stay with his grandparents. But that separation doesn't slow Teal and Jared down. Jared says they go on a date and have sex in the back of her car. Pretty soon, he moves into Teal's bedroom, and Teal's husband moves into a separate room.
Through her lawyer, Teal declined to comment on her relationship with Jared. All of this is so tragic. And Saatchi, their relationship is super intense. Jared gets a remote computer programming job that makes good money, which he uses to help pay Teal's mortgage. Basically, whatever Teal needs money for. In a later YouTube video, Teal denies Jared ever gave her money.
Jared says that he and Teal talk about getting married and having a kid together. Jared believes they're soulmates and says he'd do anything for Teal. At one point, he says, She asked me, what would you be willing to do for me or for this cause? And I was like, I'd be willing to kill someone and bury them in the backyard. And she's like, wow, that is really fucked up.
I mean, that is fucked up. I wouldn't do that for anybody. Yeah. Her response is insane because she asked a truly ludicrous question and she got a ludicrous answer. So her response is also incredibly unfair, but his answer is fucked up. Yeah, it's kind of like, how far would you go for me? And then they tell you how far and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. You're crazy. Yeah, you're like, well, not that. That's insane. I don't know. I guess everyone has their limit. That's Teal's.
Jared also told us Teal made him take a new name because she says his birth name doesn't suit him. She said like your soul, your essence, your strain, whatever, like your name is not a vibrational match for who you are. He says that Teal names him Fallon and sometimes she
she says he's acting like Jared. That means having human needs. And she needs him to be Fallon, aka do whatever Teal wants. Teal says she wants him to be more authentic. But Jared says any sense of self he had is fading away. And when he's confronted with dark secrets about his own past, he'll reach rock bottom.
After Teal gives him a new name, Jared says she starts doing repressed memory work with him. And it turns out he also has memories of abuse to uncover.
But Jared's memories aren't just about being a victim. He says he also recovers supposed memories of committing acts of violence. I'd lay down and I just would like start creating things that like never happened, like driving in a white van with my dad and like picking up children. She seems to want a lot of the people around her to have trauma. She clearly has trauma. She wants other people to have it too. And it always seems to be the same kind. Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like one thing about Teal is that she really believes that trauma is a strength. Yeah, you get something from it by like really being able to point it out. But it's always the same type. It's not like no one's ever resurfacing something she did or said. It's always like this thing that happened with my family that I've never had any concept of until now. Yeah, and all of these quote unquote memories cause tension, right?
Teal blogs about Jared, calling him abusive and a psychopath. It seems like a weird power move, and a lot of her followers start to hate him. Jared says that at one point, Teal encourages him to kill himself. Teal says in a video that this never happened and that her life's work is trying to help people to not commit suicide. She calls Jared a, quote, disgruntled ex-lover with an ax to grind.
Meanwhile, Jared's recovered memories continue to feel like nightmares. In one, Jared says he visualizes being sent to kill Teal, but accidentally kills her son, Winter. When he tells Teal about it, he says she threatens to call the police and kicks him out of the house. Not long after, Jared checks into a psychiatric center in Salt Lake City.
Teal's on her way up. She's gaining followers and influence every day. She wants to change the world and become a household name. So she decides to open up her world, not only to new volunteers who want to help spread her message, but to camera crews who will document what happens after she steps off the stage. But when she loosens her grip on the narrative, it's not just about the world.
things are revealed that could throw her entire empire up in flames and ultimately lead to betrayal by someone in her innermost circle. ♪
This is The Memory Maker Part One. I'm Sarah Hagee. And I'm Sachi Cole. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were The Gateway Podcast, Conspirituality Podcast, The Mormon Stories Podcast, and Vice TV's episode on Teal. And of course, Teal's own books and videos, including Sculptor in the Sky, The Completion Process, and The Memory Maker.
and Shadows Before Dawn. Special thanks to Jared Dobson and Jennings Brown for taking the time to chat with us. In this episode, we discussed sexual violence, depression, and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached at 1-800-273-8255. The National Alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264. If
If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline in the U.S. by calling 1-800-656-HOPE. That's 1-800-656-4673.
Additional resources are available in our show notes. Susie Armitage wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Hagee. Our senior producer is Jen Swan. Our producer is John Reed. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peary. Our story editor and producer is Sarah Enney. Our story editor is Allison Weintraub.
Sound design is by James Morgan. Fact-checking by Gabrielle Drolet. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor, Scott Velasquez for Freesound Sync.
Our managing producer is Matt Gant, and our senior managing producer is Tanja Thigpen. Kate Young and Olivia Richard are our series producers. Our senior story editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Our senior producer is Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Janine Cornelow, Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer Beckman, and Marshall Louie for Wondery. Wondery.
If you like Scamfluencers, you can listen to every episode early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
