The Eminently Effervescent Courtney Act (Part 1) with Katya
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Hi there, and welcome back to another riveting episode of The Bald and the Beautiful. Do I have to shave my head? No, no, because listen, for the first time in B&B herstory, bald and beautiful.

Thank you. Yeah. Not just two bald uglies. Well, I am. I am bald from here down. No, no, no, no, no. This is, we're just talking about this. It's just the head bald. I would like to direct your attention to the full, gorgeous, luscious, healthy head of hair. Did you go to Turkey by chance? Do I look like a Barbie doll? Wait, have you, wait, have you gone on TikTok and typed in turkey teeth?

I can see the hours melting away from my life already. People who have gone to Turkey to get veneers. Yeah. But like, it's not pretty. It's not cute. They're horse teeth, giant teeth. Giant. Or like they, they like file them down. And sometimes there's like dentists who are like, this is not what you do where they like file down each tooth to a peg. And then they put like the veneers over the top and.

- I thank God, Jesus, whatever Allah, who, you know, Bob, hopefully. - No one. - No one, yeah. That like, I just, for some reason, the teeth were not a problem for me and I had braces.

Because those veneers, there's something evil. I had orthodontics. Did you have orthodontics? Like I had headgear. It was like a jock strap and like a bull bar out the front. I didn't wear the headgear because I thought it was a little too... Yeah, we know. We can tell. But I didn't want to take my braces off. Oh, because you loved them? Oh, I loved them. I couldn't wait to get them on and I couldn't wait. I didn't want to take them off. It was the 90s with a status symbol? Yeah.

It was a rite of passage. Yeah. It was like, this is what you do at this. I was the right place at the right time. Like such a sense of like comfort and conformity and belonging. Yes. It was like you get your driver's license at 16, you get your braces at 12. Yeah. And from 12 to whatever, I was just like, oh, and they would tighten them at the, yeah.

And they were hurt. Did you ever, did you have, mine was like old school orthodontics. Elastics? No, mine was like wire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Metal. Metal. And then they'd be like the spiky bits and it would stab the inside of your mouth. Oh, absolutely. And then they would attach elastics from the bottom, the top to the bottom and then.

Sometimes they would snap in your mouth. Oh, thrilling. Gen Z doesn't know what they're missing with their Invisalign. Wait, is that what they're doing? Yeah, they don't do... Do they do... I've seen people with braces. They do metal braces. Well, do you know what my kind of... It's a semi kink. Adults with braces. Do you know what I mean? I know what you mean. Well, my aunt, who I'm not... That's not my kink. Not my kink. She got braces as an adult. And I just thought that was the coolest thing ever. Like...

Like actual real life braces. Like child braces, metal, the whole thing. How would you feel about an adult getting like the colored elastics on their teeth? Is it a little infantile? Totally twee. Yeah. They might as well be wearing a diaper. You know what I mean? But just a mouthful of silver is kind of hot.

I think it's so odd, especially if they have like gray hair in like a job. You know what you want to do? You want to find the person who's got kind of janky teeth, who's about to get braces. And like, that's where you marry on the bottom floor. Okay. And it's a good three-year marriage. A good three-year marriage. Well, no, no, no. You got to wait until the braces are off and then you get to enjoy the glory years. No, no, no. Once the braces come off, it's a wrap. The appeal's gone. But then they've got a lovely like... Well, then they move on to another person. Yeah.

Someone who has a fetish for nice teeth. Well, imagine if you had a fetish for the infirm. And then they got firm? And then you're like, sorry. Yeah, it's a transitional, like you have a series of wonderful transitional relationships. Like I love, I'm only attracted to guys with broken legs. It's a temporary. It's hot for three months. You hang out at the hospital. Okay. So you are from, I was just in Australia. Yes. You're here. Yes. What the fuck is up with that?

- So we have planes now, it's the way the world works. - We like ships in the night. - I don't like how somehow our schedules, I mean, our schedules are aligning right now 'cause I'm here. - Well you have one and I don't, that's the weird thing. - A schedule? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, you do. - I like fart around every once in a while, but I don't really travel much anymore. - I don't travel much anymore and I like it. I mean, I've just been traveling for the last six weeks, but that's been for enjoyment.

Traveling for enjoyment is not sullied by the traveling. I tell you, it does take a minute to get over it. The whole lead up to this trip, I was feeling that like, oh, God.

like airports and bags and like, especially going to the UK, like suitcases, hallways, corners, no elevators. And you have one going through TSA and anywhere in the UK. Oh, right. This one milliliter of mouthwash is going to blow up the whole plane. Definitely detained me for 15 minutes. It's like crazy. Yeah. But I did have all of that sort of like pre-trip anxiety of, I mean, it wasn't crippling. It wasn't like, but yeah, I did.

think, oh, am I doing this for enjoyment? Then I got to Lisbon. I was in Lisbon for a week with my friends, Alex and Ronnie. And we just had like a lovely time. Then I went to the UK for like a week to do a bunch of gigs and some meetings. Then I went to Berlin, which I was performing at Pride, but that was like the fun. Do you like Berlin?

I have mixed, a mixed relationship with it. It often feels like the world ended and we had to reassemble society based on what we had laying around. Okay.

Like East Berlin is like that. Okay. But I've been there like five times and every time I'm like, this is the time. Like Berlin is so cool. It's so edgy. I'm so cool. I'm so edgy. Obviously I'm going to fall in love with Berlin. Berlin's going to fall in love with me. And then it was the Sunday after Pride. I woke up and I was like, you know what? Maybe Berlin's just not for me.

And I thought, I'm going to go see the Barbie movie and get a burger. And I walked to the cinema. I asked the lady for the ticket. The next movie wasn't for three hours. And I was like, I'll go to another cinema. And a friend from Australia who was in Berlin texted and said, we're going to Horsemeat Disco. You should come. And I was like, all right.

And I went and had the night of my life. Oh, you did? I love Berlin. Oh, she fell in love with Berlin. That's great. I've had fun times there, but it's more like... Wait, is that at Berghain? No. No, this was... I think it was called Prince Charles. But Horsemeat Disco is such a good party. It happens in New York and LA. It happens in LA as well, I think. But they play disco. They play Donna Summer, Diana Ross. There's a very... Maybe one of the gayest moments of my life is when they're playing...

- It's Raining Men. - Okay. - And we were in like the dance floor is like, it used to be a pool. And so like everyone's on the dance floor, which is the bottom of the pool and dancing and It's Raining Men starts. And at first I'm like, oh, this is, this is, I've always found It's Raining Men a bit on the nose.

It's like what straight people play when they want gayness. It's like the YMCA kind of, you know. But in a very queer space, it felt like I was able to like heal those wounds and dance it out. Get over your velvet rage. Yeah. But I would prefer that to rain on me. The current, you know what I mean? Okay. It's controversial. Hang on.

Padam? Padam. Are you okay with that? Am I okay with it? Okay. Well, you just poo-pooed rain on me, so I had to check about Padam. Well, listen.

Kylie Minogue is an untouchable, delightful angel sent straight from heaven. And she will do nothing except caress and cajole and inspire and lift up. I love her so much. She could sing anything. She could sing like...

I fucked my husband even though he was dead. You know, like whatever. And I would be like, yes, Kylie, you're really doing it. I love that despite being like one of the

the greatest, most successful pop stars in the world, there's still something of like an underdog feel. I think in the US. Yeah, she never really, but I listened to it. I watched an interview with her a little while ago, you know, and the rude interviewer was kind of alluding to that fact that she never really made it in the US. And she was like, yeah, well,

you know touring the us is kind of um well awful you know and i was like t like it's like oh you never hit a big here so you don't you you don't get the pleasure of going to arkansas um tennessee mobile oh yeah it's like uh selena kansas oh no kylie what are you gonna do a vegas residency yeah oh my gosh um so it was like yeah cares plus it's like so wonderful to see somebody like

You know, she's what, in her 50s? 55, I think. In her 17th album? I recall being at her 50th birthday. That's right. You do, you have. She's five foot tall, right? Yeah. Teeny, tiny, teeny. Yeah, teeny, tiny. Perfectly proportioned in every way. What do you think about her jacking my whole swag for the music video? I thought that was a little ballsy. I did see those memes. People were like, this is just Katya. Yeah, my friend Macy Rodman was like, so I loved your new music video. And I was like, I mean, it's not like...

I did invent the color red. You did. Yeah. But I love it. She's definitely featuring a facelift of some sort, you know. She's a woman of a certain age. Who knows? And it's working. Yeah. It's working. And it's just like, she's got that coffee cup. Doesn't mean anything. It's like sliding a coffee cup around in a diner. Americana.

Is that what it is? I think so. I think I see that music video is like nodding to like a like a relatable budgeted Americana kind of like we're in a diner. Now we're in a car. Yeah. Yeah. And then we're in a hotel. We're in a hotel. They're all very like American tropes like a motel. A motel. It was a motel. Definitely was a motel. Yeah. It's all red. Yeah. Yeah.

rain on me horse meat disco berlin so you fell do you want to see how far back i can go yeah you got it berlin traveling how'd you feel about traveling um

Here we are together. You were just in Australia. I'm here. Why weren't we there? Jesus Christ. Do we want to pick up on any of those threads or just keep spiraling? No, I think we want to go. Well, so you fell in love in Berlin. It's concentric circles, I think, conversation. I think so. It's not a straight line. No, mama. Time is a flat circle. No, not concentric. What do you call it when it spirals? A spiral? Spiraling? Yeah. Spiraling.

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Berlin, you finally fell in love with Berlin. Yes, but I feel like the reason that I fell in love with Berlin was so superficial. It's because like I was making out with a hot boy all night on the dance floor, like I fell in love and like had great time. And you're gay. Well, I moved to Bondi. Well, he moved to Bondi. Well, I moved to Berlin. And then something happened during the night and like it was over. And I was like, it's OK, pick yourself up, girl. Go find someone else. There's plenty of men at this party. And I did. Yeah.

And then I left. And now I feel like I have, like, I planted all of these seeds. Okay. And now I need to go back to Germany. Yeah, you have to get to go reap. Yeah, I got to go reap what I sowed. Halari. Halari. Oh, if you say R-N-R in an American accent. Okay, do it now. R-N-R. Did you hear it?

Say it again. R&R. R&R! That was like rise up lights. Rise up lights. Like razor blades. Rise up lights. I think that is so cool. R&R. R&R. Like, I know I've showed you that video of my friend Katie who's like, welcome to bingo. To me, it's bad, but it's so, it's the funniest thing ever. It's like, um,

If you're here for bingo or stay, you're in the right place. Oh, God. But is it like, is it, have you been following the Drag Race Down Under show at all? I started watching the first episode and I unfortunately was unable to complete watching it.

That's a very diplomatic answer. For certain, uh, for reasons beyond my control, I was not able to complete the series. Thank you so much. And have a wonderful day. I won't tell you what the reasons were. I, oh, have you put it on? I,

I'm hitting a wall with Drag Race. Yeah. We've reached saturation point. Oh, I think we've reached it a while ago. Once it started becoming like, and I'm not complaining. No. I'm not complaining. Listen, I think it's great that we have McDonald's in Africa, in Asia, in everywhere, you know? How do they feel about it though? I don't know. I don't know. We have to ask them. But we never will. No. But like, I just can't keep up with it all. And I feel bad because I go on these gigs and like I meet these queens who are like,

on this, on the show or maybe like really, and I'm like, I don't know who you are and I'm sorry. It's fascinating. Examine the, examining the psychology between the like social structures and the, the, the parasocial structures of like drag race interconnectedness of like the franchise and the sisterhood and the,

It's like it's a sisterhood of the traveling franchises. Yeah, it's very strange. Yeah, same. I'm grateful that like Iceland and Brazil and Belgium and all this. I think so. Is there Angola? There's probably Drag Race Trinidad and Tobago. I mean, it's probably coming down. Wow. But I love that all of those regions have an opportunity for the queens in their regions. Sure. Like, I'm just I'm just glad I was on season six of the US one.

Seriously, Mary, I think like, I'm so grateful because I think that your season six was the end. And then seven was like, you know, when the monster like lurches up for one last little like thing at the end of the horror movie, that was seven. And then eight was just, I don't even know from eight on. Yeah. And because it was like, I think Bianca killed Drag Race. It was sort of like, when you're at the top.

Where else are you going to go? Down. Yeah. That's what season seven was like. You know, you grease up one of those metal slides and take it down the ski hill. No, but it was like a reset. Did you watch season seven? Yeah. You did. I've watched them all. Every one. I've watched all the American ones and all of the All Stars. Up to date, like up to 15? Yes. Wow.

Yeah. Alaska and Willem don't believe that I've ever watched Drag Race in my life, but I really have. Okay. But I was reading a book. I think it was Popism. I don't know if it was by Andy Warhol or if it was about Andy Warhol, but it was about that era of like Andy Warhol and the factory and New York and the 90s and the 80s, 70s. 70s. Anyway, whenever it was, I really paid attention. And I remember reading it thinking, I wonder when like the next like great sort of,

queer artistic era will be. And then I was like, oh, maybe we're actually in the middle of it. Like,

Drag race and the the proliferation of drag globally like we can we can remember what it was like Well, this is like just a few years ago, but I guess 16 years ago. Yeah, no shit. Yeah Fuck, I moved to LA in 2010 and I think maybe season 3 hadn't gone to air yet but we all knew Raja had won right and It was like this like new

Yeah, because by season three, it was getting somewhere. Yeah. And have I told you about when Rue sent me an email? So it was like...

2009 I was doing beauty advertorials on Australian morning television for sheer cover mineral makeup Of course you would not wearing nothing wearing nothing just a pussycat wig Oh my god, and I had like a bunch of and this is like a pre Essentially a pre drag race here like season two. And so I sent I sent

i had rupal's why did i have rupe ruple's email used to be on like rupal.com back in the year 2003 and it was like rupaul at rupe yeah uh and i hacked the mainframe and so i sent an email to that address and then rue replied now it was on an oh it was like an old hotmail account so i don't have this email anymore so i can only like

- Let me guess, listen up you honky bitch. - Well, what I realized, I never realized at the time it was written in Australian. 'Cause you know how she loves. - Oh my God, she loves to dip her toes into the local flavor. Basically it's like, "Hello, calm down." And that's it, yeah.

And so what did she say? It was like, it was like, get a Courtney. I think you're the bees knees. Um, I'm real keen for you to blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, I love what you're doing. Like she, she knew who I was, I think maybe from idol. And she said that I love what you're doing. And she said, I've,

I've just started doing this show called Drag Race. And if it's successful, it will give me the cachet I need to be able to start like a, she wanted to do like a drag show.

band, like a live singing drag band. I swear I'm not making this up, but as I'm saying it, it sounds so unbelievable. They're going to be like fracking empire in Wyoming. That came true. And she, she said she wanted to start a drag band and it was like, and of course you would be the lead singer. I swear to God, this is what she said. I need to like contact someone at Hotmail. Who has Hotmail now? Microsoft? Apple. Apple? Do they? Microsoft. Okay. Somebody get

Yes. Mike at Microsoft, please. Would you get right on that? Thank you. Yeah. And I had forgotten about that. This is tea. Right. This is tea. And it was this lovely email. And it was just like, so it was also like one of those, you know, Rue is an icon. Did she sign it? Love Rue or like Ruth Paul or something.

That's so fierce. What was the band name? I can't remember if it was like she wanted to do a show to create a band. Maybe it was like another like live singing drag band show kind of thing. I think. I mean, Wee Wee Paul, I think was one of the name of her bands. Yeah. Damn. I remember you from when I became aware of you way before Drag Race from Myspace.

Oh, my space. And I was like that. Was I my space famous? I absolutely must have been me and Jeffrey star in Miss Fame. I'm Miss Fame. Yes, because she was famous before the show with her YouTube. Is she old enough to be on my space? She's yes. She's old enough to be. How old is Miss Fame? I would say she's 40, 40 years old.

- Miss Fame is 38 years old. - Close enough. Yeah, yeah. YouTube or whatever. Yeah, but I was like, I remember thinking like, oh, I didn't want to go to LA. I wanted to move to New York. But I was like, oh, this girl in LA, she's really, really pretty. What's her deal?

And I remember thinking, I was like, oh, she's going to be such a bitch. She's going to be such a bitch. And look, you're just like a total ray of sunshine. No, no, no, you. Oh, me? Oh, thank you. I mean... Well, when I first moved to LA, Willem had like heard about me from like Raya and the other girls and had...

and was threatened. I was going to say, was there like mean girl friction? She asked me that. When Detox went away to film Drag Race, which we called Summer Camp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She asked me to fill in for a DWV gig at Wet in Chicago. Oh, God. And on one condition, that I had to wear brown hair. And a mustache. And be from behind the curtain. Yeah.

You're kidding me. I had a Courtney in chocolate star, is it called? Oh my God. With the thing pinned back. And it was me, Vicky, and well, me in a brown wig. Listen, you are one of the most gorgeous drag queens in the world. However, a brunette, you are not. Well, we don't know. Well, I think we know. I feel like I want to like...

I feel like I'd do a redhead era before I did a brunette era. Of course. Or black even. Jet black. But brown. Brown. I did wear brown hair once in like the year 2001. It was the most boring night of my life. And you were also Fran Drescher for the Snatch Game. That was a brunette moment. Yeah. But it's just like, it's a head scratcher for me a lot of times. Yeah.

Are we playing a character? Are we trying to do the princess or the princess diaries where we're like, we're ugly because we have glasses on and then we take the glasses off. Are we being brunette phobic? No, not at all. Because Alyssa Edwards, for example, natural brunette. Yeah. Beautiful. Roxy Andrews, brunette. You know. It works for some people. Me, I look like a dog.

Like a dog. If I have brown hair, it's just so strange. Like a dog. You're a blonde. Or, yeah, just a blonde. Have you done a red? Have you tiptoed? I've done red. I've done black. I've done it all. But brown is the real... If I'm wearing a brown wig, you should call the police. Oh, okay. You know, it's like...

This is not good. So wait, you moved here. Did you wear the brown wig on stage? I made me wear the brown wig. You did wear it. I did. What would it look like? Fine. Actually, there's a video on YouTube of the three of us because the heat finished late and the flight was early and we decided it would be a great idea to fly in drag. And so Vicky Willem and I going through TSA...

And then it was also a connecting flight. So we like got out of drag on the plane and got off in, I don't know, Atlanta or wherever the connection was through. But so they let you, they look at your ID and then see this thing and they be like, okay. They like scanned us. I think they like patted down Willem's hair. Like, sorry, ma'am. And what year is this?

2010 11 i'd say i don't think they knew about trans people yet no they didn't jesus christ damn it was a simpler time and then they just let you go through no problem yeah and we got on the plane and got out of drag on the plane in economy like in the chair like trying to like take off makeup and like go to the bathroom on the plane to like

And it worked. You fully de-dragged on the floor. Yeah. Do people hate you? No, I think it was like, it was like a long flight at night and the lights were off. Okay. Like we weren't being like. Oh, you weren't being like. Surprisingly. You weren't doing. There's a stranger in my house. What makes a man a man?

If I was on a plane, especially like a business class overnight and there was a drag show, I would kill myself. I would kill myself. You would just wait for that emergency hatch and we're all going down. This is a bridge to first libraries with children, now airplanes. Oh, God. In Australia, I noticed that like

There were some protests at the drag expo that we did. But they had a huge police presence, like, just as a precaution. Like a barricade. And I don't even know what happened with the protests. Like, you know...

People protesting the fact that they think drag queens are groomers and all that. Which, of course, we are. But, like, very well groomed. But by and large, isn't Australia, or at least Melbourne and Sydney, like, very gay? Yeah. It's really interesting because the conversation around drag and grooming, and I think that also, like, then extends to, like, trans people and sport and bathrooms and whatever else. It's all...

In Australia, it's all, I think, spoken with an American accent. What do you mean by that? It's sort of something that's been imported from the US. And it's not, I think most Australians, even like our conservative friends

like Fox News, it's called Sky News. What's it called? Sky News. Sky News. When I, so I was on a TV show called Play School Story Time, which is like a kids, like an institution play school. And they have story time, which is like a spinoff where somebody reads a book and they have lots of different people reading a lovely book to children. And it's the ABC. It's like,

um publicly funded like very considered there's nothing like salacious huge opportunity for grooming well i read this lovely book yeah uh on and this was sort of before the drag queen story time uh thing had really kicked off right and um i had been on the previous year it was like a show called little kids big questions where they had like uh a

First Nations person and like a bunch of kids asking like questions about First Nations culture a person in a wheelchair and them talking about their experience and different like just different facets of society having conversations with kids and I did one that was like had millions of views it was so well received it was so adorable no one ever said anything but then a year later and this sort of thing started to spark off and I was at a 10-day silent Vipassana meditation retreat in the Blue Mountains grooming when

when a senator held up a like laser jet printer of me and asked, why is the ABC using government money to groom children? And-

In the Senate estimates, there's a privilege that exists where they can say slanderous things or defamatory things with privilege and it's fine. But even like the Sky News, like the Fox News of Australia was like,

what is this guy talking about like this is ridiculous we all need to move on and I was just like oh my God like I because I saw the thing and I was like them talking about it and I watched it and I was like oh oh yeah he's like this was a lovely show Courtney read this book that was completely appropriate it was very sweet I'd be happy if my kids watched it sort of thing and I was like oh

Are you telling me that there's evolved conservative news outlets out there? Or that they exhibit evolved behavior at certain times? At certain times on certain subjects. I mean, honestly, like, mama, who gives a shit? Also the bathroom thing. Marry the bathroom. Leave it alone. Well, they just, what they've been trying, they've been poking around trying to find what works for a while. And they finally worked out Drag Queens and Storytime and

Sport trans people in sport. They're like, oh, here's where we can like really divide Yeah, the nation the sport thing really gets tough because people are so I mean sports is such a huge industry. Yeah, and it's so Serious. Yeah, I mean you ever watch like American football games where the coaches are on the sidelines with their they have like veins bulging They're screaming and like they look like they're about to have an aneurysm. Yeah, it's like so

Serious, but they've worked they've worked out that there's these few issues that will polarize us and there aren't easy answers and they are difficult conversations and in order the thing about Those polarizing conversations is that they reduce it to just two sides So everything on the other side is wrong And so having the ability to be able to hold more than one truth in your head at one time is what's required and so when we're focused on

what we disagree on where forgetting everything that we actually do agree on and so I'm always interested like I think the people at the top probably know exactly what they're doing and that they're using these wedge issues to divide people but then people are like yeah that's right and they haven't really thought about it but then I want to know like if we could just take say sport

story time bathrooms off the table and say like, well, what do we agree on? Do we agree that trans people exist? Do we agree that people express gender differently? Do we agree that they should be allowed to? And try and work on the complementarity of- - Is that a real word? - It is a real word. It's the opposite of polarization. It's this idea that the opposite of polarization are the things that complement each other and that we agree on. And I just think we need to get

back to that like we need to start talking about well what do we agree on because most like marriage equality it passed the sky didn't cave in most people are down with the gays y2k happened yeah that didn't I mean I remember that going down mum bought water and canned food and I was I was waiting for like I don't even know what yeah but um yeah no also like I mean I think it's uh it's it must be just a distraction from the fact that like you know

In America, we have no health care. You know, there's there's you can't the cost of living is so sky high and then billionaires don't pay taxes. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's fucking climate change, reproductive rights. Well, that's the thing. Also, like, are you a boy or a girl? Yeah. Like I there was a clip of one of these conservative pundit women talking about the trans activists that does.

Dylan Mulvaney. She's like, she's not a girl. She doesn't have boobs. It's like, this is like schoolyard talk. Like the level of discourse is like on the maybe second, third grade recess level. It's like, what are you talking about? She doesn't have a rack on her. How could she be a girl? This is crazy. It's like, oh my God.

And I think that's in a weird way why queer people are here to save the world because we're here to disassemble the binary system and conversation around gender. Let me ask you this, though. So the gender binary. Mm hmm.

speak yeah do you are you for or against i think that there's like obviously biological realities and i think that there is then sociological realities which is that gender exists in many ways like i always think if i could like talk to like this the straight conservative man and be like yes sir we both have penises

but do you really think that like we're the same because i'm sure in your mind you see me as less than you don't see me as masculine or a man you see me as like some pathetic and like let's go with that let's take that and extrapolate that because you see right there that gender is on a spectrum because you're more masculine and i'm not like if we were in the cave people times i would

be out killing the lions I'd be picking berries with the women like we would be it would be a meritocracy yeah no you'd be doing like silk trapeze or something like that or like I'd be like the medicine the modeling

I think like if you think about if you look around the world right I mean I know this is like it was like flogging a dead horse this conversation but I try to think of like other ways to talk to conservative people like to to help them prove that

what they're saying is true in service of our experience. Right. And so I'm like, yeah, where like you're this big masculine man. I'm not. Yeah. So therefore we have a spectrum. Yeah. So let's like expand that out. Let's plot the manliest man to the most, I guess, feminine man, if we had to choose a word and the most feminine woman and to the most masculine woman. And I feel like that's a Venn diagram that actually crosses over. It's not like

I feel like the most feminine man is more feminine than most masculine woman. Okay. But also, of course, it depends on, to a degree, the arbitrary nature of how we characterize masculine and feminine. Well, absolutely. She doesn't have a rack. Yeah, yeah. Wear her fucking tits. You know, like just because she's got double Gs doesn't mean, you know, she might be out there changing attire with a buzz cut.

- Yeah, exactly. It's just so reductive, the whole conversation about what we, and that's why I think like all of this queer identity is disrupting what people have always afforded to be true. And I think we're now just unfortunately suffering the fallout, but I think that it's almost like a puberty, like, you know, trans people go through like a second puberty. I think the conversation around gender right now, probably aided by social media and populist politics, it's like one big puberty

puberty, like the hormones are raging and we're all just like in the schoolyard saying dumb things. And I hope, my hope is that in five or 10 years, we will have progressed to a place where maybe 10, 15 years where society looks back and goes, oh wow, queer people, there was something so feminist about trans and queer identity. And it really helped to not take away from

what a woman is but take away the expectation of how someone who has a vagina is supposed to behave and dress and act and eat and wear and all of that and for men I think men on the other side are actually sometimes it sounds like oh poor straight white men oh no men have problems too but I think

they're actually the ones who are suffering the not the most but they have a burden they have a burden they created it they created the cage they inherited it the system created the cage they're not personally aware of the cage and I think that working to disassemble that for them weirdly is

I think it's like my kink. And I think I've discovered that through having sex with like straight identifying men in drag and then psychoanalyzing them after they come. I did the same thing too. If they were available for that, because sometimes they come and they just... And then they punch you in the back of the head and leave. I had one vomit once. That's some crying game shit. I know. I was... Why? I don't know. It was like, it was 2001. So it could have been wig. It could have been my fault.

I didn't have lashes on. I had wispies on at best. And I was the top. Of course. He came and then he looked at me, looked in the mirror. We were in the bathroom and he was over the bathroom sink. And then he just looked and he got that

look in his eye and I was like, is he going to punch me or oh no. And then just vomited everywhere. And I sort of snuck out of the room, put on a little more lip liner and came back into the room. And he's a he started to he tried to kiss me and I was like, did you brush your teeth? Okay. Did you gargle? This is such a man. This is such a man. Such a man. Such a man. Indulge my wildest taboo, then get so sickened by it that I throw up, then get over that and then take my vomity lips and try to kiss. Oh, no.

But you know, I think by the time that we have all this gender stuff kind of ironed out and smooth over, climate change will be like, y'all done. So glad that y'all figured out men, women, and everything in between. Here's this fucking tidal wave and y'all gonna drown. It does feel like a

like a right hand don't look at what the left hand's doing kind of thing or i think maybe were you the one who gave me the hand pointing at the moon i didn't give you that i probably told you about it because i have used that and i realized that you have to explain it whenever you say it because i thought it was like a a philosophy or an eth like yeah but when i say to people you know drag is like the hand pointing at the moon and they're like

I'm like, but most people, instead of looking at where the finger is pointing, they just are looking at the hand and going like, wow, what a pretty hand in a wig. And you're like, no, no, I'm pointing at something. Look at that. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, yeah, I think that that's the power of drag. And that's why I do think that like,

I think that where we've been, I think that like Black Lives Matter, Me Too, Queer Liberation are all really important movements that have been created to uplift people who have been oppressed by the patriarchy. But we haven't addressed the source, which is like, I mean, we try to, we try to disassemble the patriarchy, but...

And I think that like, if we, if we, if we try in a weird way to like, like get talk to men. Do you think, can you envision a world in which like, I mean, I'm thinking like it would be like a civil war, Russian revolution type of scale. Yeah. But,

I don't, I mean, you look at all these, in America anyways, I don't know about Australia, it's like Congress, companies, CEOs, it's all men. Pilots, all men. It is a patriarchy. It's all men, men, men, men.

How do you practically dismantle that? Bobby Land. No. That's right. We've got to get Greta Gerwig on the case. Did you like Barbie? I did. I did. You did. I really enjoyed it. What about that Ken number? A little too long for me. A little too long. Yeah. We all agree on that. And that is the conclusion of part one of my positively lovely and certainly scintillating conversation with Courtney.

Thank you so much. Goodbye.