No Longer Homeless and Loving It with Miss Fame 59:22

All right. We are here once again with the bald and the beautiful. We are the bald. I am Trixie Mattel. I am also the bald. I am Katya. And we couldn't be more thrilled. We have literally, I mean, somebody who transcends natural laws. With beauty. Age defying. Species defying. Intergalactical. Planetary defying. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Intercontinental. Oh yeah. Yes. It is another world. And literally someone whose literal brand identity and just soul is infused and informed by

Yeah, somebody who has suffered for their art, dedicated their lives to the simple pleasures of having something beautiful to look at on the planet. I'm practically a frontline worker. Thank you! You do eventually let people talk. Yeah, no, you're fine. Actually, I prefer it this way. It's the nice option other than the voices inside my head, which are still very much there this many years later.

We have to address something you said coming out of the pod a second ago that if you thought we would let go, you're living in a dream. You said that you don't have a computer. No, I don't. Okay. You got it. You got it. I don't have a computer. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. It's not shocking. It is. It is pretty. It is. It's incredible, but it's not shocking. Well, here's the thing. Yeah. No, ask the question and I'll answer accordingly. Is there a question? Okay. Okay.

Have you ever felt the temptation to get a computer? Yes, but I grew up in a house with my grandparents and we only had one to play solitaire. That was the only purpose for the computer that was in the house. Okay. I can relate. I relate. Of a similar age. Are you 35? Yeah, yeah.

And you? 35, yeah. And how old are you? 38. Okay. 38, yeah. You're like, what's that supposed to mean? I remember those solitaire programs on the good old DOS or whatever you called it. So when you use a computer, you're on your lovely husband's computer right now. Yes. And I really don't know how to use them. I really know how to use... That's why I don't have TikTok. I don't have certain apps because I'm overwhelmed with the keeping up aspect of...

our young generation. It's too much all the time. - Fame, I am so in my soul, on a soul level, I am so appreciative that you don't have a TikTok. - Yeah, same. - You're missing nothing.

I understand this. I keep thinking it's going to pass and it won't matter. It will not have mattered if you had this monumentous success, except for those that are having success on TikTok or making a lot of money. Are they though? Maybe. I feel like. They are. Okay. Why are you looking at her? That explains the effort. Does she have a TikTok? I mean, look at like Brittany Broski. She just hosted something for like VH1. She was in a Super Bowl commercial. Oh, wow. She had viral TikTok. All right.

I don't understand and I still haven't been able to fully comprehend how certain aspects of social media equate to becoming famous.

Like you do something here and then you're working with like Jennifer Lopez. You know what I mean? Somebody that's given 30 plus years of her life as a dedicated dancer and elevating her singing capabilities. I'm using her as an example because of her age and her dedication to some young person that has a phone that all of a sudden did something for a 15 minute or 15 second clip that makes them so important that they get to stand and hold ground with somebody who's

earned the right. I might be totally controversial on that, but that's where I'm at. No, no, no. It's wild. No, I'm glad you brought it up. I think it has to do with, think about it. You're J-Lo. Your diehard fans are probably mom-ish aged. They grew up with you. They love you. So this is probably like J-Lo's team being like, how do we indoctrinate the 18 to 25-year-olds? We have to get somebody who's a celebrity to them to stand next to Jennifer Lopez, which whatever.

Those type of like marketing things have given many of us those type of opportunities. Yeah. We're like, we need someone cool. And it existed long before TikTok. Right. Yeah. But, but it's, but it's strange though. It, I was thinking the other day about TikTok and it's like, for me, it doesn't make me, it doesn't make the experience of music any better. Like for example, when my favorite artist recently released this gorgeous song and music video,

And then also the TikTok challenge to it. And I'm like, I could do without that part.

I agree. You know what I mean? I know. It was a gorgeous, beautiful, like meaningful song. And now there's a challenge. And I'm like, I can't do it. You know, whatever. I'm old. But maybe it's because I'm. No, it's not. It's some Russian lady. I always do this. And this happens with even recording artists. When somebody comes out and everyone hypes them, I always feel like it. Maybe this is just the way I'm wired. I resist it until I finally get it.

And then when I get it, it makes sense because they've kind of claimed that space. And once they've claimed that space by repeating their brilliance and you see it continue, I'm like, oh, you've totally... It makes sense why you have the success you do. I think that a lot of people now are still aspiring to become famous because of a void within themselves. They think, oh, if I make it there, it's going to equate. And a lot of these young people...

I'm going to use another example. If you come from a famous family and then you're just ushered in in a nepotistic way into becoming famous, there is no struggle. They didn't have to break a barrier or a boundary. It kind of was just, oh, I have a following because my mom is, name that person. And then all of a sudden we're watching you as a point of reference and having to pay you with some form of respect and

just because you were born underneath the name of somebody. And with us coming from our backgrounds, real people, real stories, fighting to claim space, building our lives, buying homes. Because Trixie, you just bought a house, right? Back in Chicago? Several. Several. So see, I mean, as I'm struggling here, don't let the gold frames fool you. This is all an illusion, darling. It's all rented. Miss Dame's like, I don't have a computer. And how many homes do you have? But

But you both had monumentous successes. So when I see us having a breakthrough, considering we know elements of each other's human experience, not to discredit these other people, but just taking this moment to say what we've done is so big and we still have to branch beyond the category that people place us in because we're still a certain kind of artist group.

So yes, respect and yes, breakthroughs and yes, there's money and there's all these things that come along with that. But what if the trend and hype around us changes in the next five years? We have to work harder to keep being that bad, bad bitch on top of our game. And these other people can dip away and come back and they're like, oh, well, you know, my house in the hills that my mom paid for, you know, maybe I'm just a better bitch. Yeah.

Because we have to work harder. But that's why I'm behind the scenes practicing my 10 second TikTok dance. Yes. Yeah. Just in case. But you can. And ultimately, I think the pursuit of being famous is, you know. Fleeting. Noble. Speaking of fleeting. You know what I mean? This fame. Yeah.

Oh, I'm going to rebrand. Madam Fame. Right? First name is Miss. I often forget that you come from humble beginnings. The humblest. Yeah. Because you have a very regal, very poised, very articulate and stately kind of demeanor. Yeah, for those of us who don't know, Miss Fame is a very celebrated makeup artist, model, drag queen, legend. But if they don't know you from television, do you want to tell people about your modest, humble beginnings? What part? The chickens. The meth? Or the chickens? I'm kidding.

You know, I start with some today. I was just talking to Patrick about this. I just got back from a booking in Berlin. I had to quarantine and COVID test and all that. And it was for television. So it was interesting to be a part of something. It's not out, but I'm going to talk in a general way to be able to give our point of view.

point of view, we find that we're getting to places where we're able to now give direction and dictate what is happening because people are looking at us with respect. I want to keep that. And coming from where I come from, where, um,

I've created an idea around myself because of the way I grew up. And, you know, like anybody that grew up with a very toxic environment, I had a good family, but they really didn't have a clue of what they were...

experiencing with having a person like me in their family. So I don't know if I want to give them a co-sign it and say they just didn't have enough information. I think that I like to pressure people. And as a kid, I pressured people to try to understand differences. And

I also was very forgiving. I love the idea of you, like, six years old, putting the pressure on your family. I did, though. You need to be more aware of differences, darling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's expand your worldview, huh? I'll just say this. My mother and father were severe drug addicts. My dad died super young. My mom lost the kids to the court. So I was a kid that was a part of the system. I had to go through the court system. I ended up getting adopted by my family. It was a hot mess for a really long time, and that was so persistent.

that when, and I had my own issues with addiction, we've obviously had that moment on Drag Race where we shared our personal journey. And that, you know, getting sober and staying sober throughout the fame, you know, I was sober before Drag Race and then being sober after Drag Race,

Was such a challenge because it was less of a challenge about the relapse. For me, it was more the challenge of maintaining sanity because I was like, I'm fucking losing my mind. And also I have created the idea of perfectionism on the outside. It's a it's it's a total protection because, you know, I'm surrounded by people.

larger than life kind of fantastical creatures in fashion and then knowing that they are just spiraling down themselves. They have their own layers and complexities and I think... Is that common? Yeah, go ahead, honey. Is that common? Like, it's a cliche of the fashion world but are people...

It's not just us. It's not just the crossdressers. No, it's so real. But they have money. They have large quantities of money. They're backed by fashion houses. They've got billion-dollar backings to do these massive inputs in fashion. They are redirecting the narrative. And it's like you have to be connected and associated to... It's just playing...

playing, you know, of course I'm passionate about it, but everything's about connection and being associated to it. For me, I'm finding less of this interesting as I'm getting older. I want to be able to kind of enjoy things, but with a light, like a little bit less of an attachment to anything. Like what really matters at the end of the day is like being with people that get you and, um, enjoying some of those simpler things like,

You know, my dogs. I mean, we're not able to do the same things we were doing a year ago. We aren't hopping everywhere and flying everywhere. I think it's ultimately part of what makes you so alluring is that you're obviously your dedication to beauty is so extreme and beautiful and inspiring, but really only on your own terms ever. Yeah. Which I think is like really cool because somebody with your talent and like your name and your respect is

You could have had a lot of opportunities to let people tell you when to show up and what to do. Who's this person? I might need that person. You! You're famous and respected and so beautiful. And anybody would die to look like you do in wet hair in a trench coat. That's not a read, but you just like, you're so aspirational. But it's because it's paired with...

the nicest person ever underneath. Yeah. And your true desires to like go to Switzerland and hang out with your husband and your dog. Yeah. Is like not something that a lot of people would, let's just say have like the third eye to know to like follow that, like will follow that indulgence. You know what I mean? I think everything we do is intuition. Um, I, I will say, I don't know if,

You're aware of that, but everything we've done, you know, any one of us has our moment where we've done something that is controversial or polarizing or it causes a riff in the system where people are like, what the fuck are you doing? I don't know. Never, I can't remember. Right? Never have I ever. But I think that you've both been able to find ways, I think in comedy and lightness, when you can shake, you can shake...

You can spin it to where people can comprehend it because it is funny. I mean, we're just trying to like show up and do what we gotta do and...

keeping it lighthearted. I mean, of course there's a lot more, you know, I'm as heady as I was at Drag Race, except I don't have the pressure of a network and what's happening behind with production. So this is just my daily living. You're just happening to get me after I was on Facebook, like ranting back against Trump supporters because I was so frustrated. Barry, why are you on Facebook? Wait, before we get into fame on Facebook, we're going to take a break. Let's take a quick break.

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And we're back. Now let's talk about Famebook. We are? Yes. Famebook. The book. So basically, I moved here in September to Switzerland and we came out here because there was nothing happening in New York. And I've lived in New York for a decade. You know, when a lot of girls after Drag Race end up in L.A., it seems to be like the best place to keep

because you can stay within the production loop. And maybe this is observational. I kind of felt like there was a conversation about it and I didn't take it. Is this something that you feel is common ground? I'm curious myself. What do you think as a pretty, almost lifelong New Yorker, what do you credit the mass exodus to? Why does everybody move to LA? Is it space? Is it opportunity? Yeah.

I think because we've had so much success with the show, with Drag Race, everybody wants to keep that momentum. Like, obviously you get off the show and it's your full responsibility to charge and maintain your title. Like, what you do needs to be in your hands, even if you have great representation. Or if you don't have representation, you can really direct the narrative.

I came to Switzerland because my husband's Swiss. I posted about it on Twitter and I tried to write in Twitter slang because, you know, every platform has their own term of context of how you talk. And I'm not that hip and cool.

I'm really not at zero. And I wrote in a way that was like trying to speak to the kids on Twitter. And I totally got like devoured. And I said, listen, bitch, like this is not, I wasn't coming to attack you when I posted a picture holding my dogs at a lake isolated from the world. Mary, that is,

Is legendary to me. I love it. When I think of the worst time of my life, I think of you naked, glistening next to a lake with your dogs. And even I'm calmed by it. Instant serotonin boost. I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so fierce. But it is isolating. You know, you could be in the most beautiful place in the world and feel like, holy fuck, I have nobody around. Both good and bad. You need that. And it was like restorative.

And a lot of people talked about the privilege perspective. And I thought it's my husband is European. It wasn't like I would never have been able to come to Europe during this pandemic just because I was able to do it because I have I married to him. And when I did it, I realized so many people were upset. A lot of people talked about how I left my family, a.k.a. the rest of the U.S. burning. And I thought I'm not a frontline worker. You're not a politician. Yeah.

You're not a member of Congress or like a senator. People in wigs are definition non-essential workers. Oh, Mary. And it's like, I think actually, finally, this like bizarre, like haphazard conversation about drag queens being like,

automatic ambassadors and activists of their community is kind of getting like lessened because that's something I've never really like, you know, understood. And the responsibility of drag entertainers is as like the standard that we're kept to is like more stringent than politicians. You know what I mean? So those kind of comments are crazy. But do you like Switzerland?

You know, I've, I don't, it's not my city. It's not my country. I'm in Zurich and I've realized it's, it's a very, the Swiss are very internal people. They're conservative and they are observational. They'll see you, but they won't really acknowledge you. You, you, you will be seen in a way, but with a veil. There was no parade. There was no parade. I was waiting because I guess I'm going to follow.

on that yet because in certain cities in Europe I feel like I make sense there in Paris it works and I feel stimulated the beauty of being in Switzerland is that I didn't come here to well I came here because we needed to change our scenario my husband's gonna be working here and as a result I'm surrounded by nature this is good for my mind um

You are on a parallel path to Pearl. Oh, yes. Pearl's in Wigs in the Woods. Wigs in the Woods. And you're in this like the crisp alpine like lake. And yeah, that's so funny. You guys are in like a parallel journey. Yeah. That's true. Nature is healing. Yes. Nature is healing. And yeah, that's just true. I definitely think that this is a good next step, but I don't think it's my long term step. I think that I'll...

You know, I want to live close to New York or maybe in California. I'm from California So I do feel kind of that pull to return at one point But um, yeah if you had if money was no object and Patrick had any work opportunity that he wanted Where would you go to live if you had to choose one city for the rest of your life? I

I would probably get back to being close to New York. New York, yeah. I still, although I hate the weather, I hate it so much, I still have so much admiration for the idea of what New York is. It's one of the most intuitive places. It felt right when I went there and when I looked at...

Being in Paris, Paris is good for one major element. It's strictly for my fashion identity. But it means I have a lot of pressure. When I walk outside, I have to care about how I look because people will see me. And I feel like I've built a somewhat respectful relationship with the Parisian fashionista kind of energy and those people that are within fashion. But like here, I can... I'm anonymous and I like that. People...

It's, I don't need the parade, but I also, I'm not able to build friendships the same way here in New York or in California. You make friends like effortlessly.

There's no queen here I could just go and grab a coffee with. But it's also different times. Like it's during a pandemic where you can't just go and hang out with newbies. You kind of have your friends that you know you're safe with. Yeah, there's been a lot of people who moved to Los Angeles during this time. And I'm like, how do you love it? They're like, who knows? I have no job and no friends and no restaurants and no bars. Yeah. And jobs are different now. You know, a lot of it's like...

I haven't done Fashion Week since February of 2020. I've put everything off. I declined attending anything because I thought it was in poor taste. I thought it's not the right moment to show up and be around a bunch of people because we don't have it all figured out yet. But at the same time, I feel like

I am only human and I'm going to contradict that statement at one point in time because opportunities and work have to happen. We have to survive. So when we inevitably take a job during this time, during a pandemic, how do we protect others and ourselves? That's why I think it's really important we talk about your acknowledge. I'll just say this one part because

It is a form of protection when people come for you. You're like, I literally quarantine just to enter that next country. That's like an hour flight away. And I, which means isolating in a hotel and testing repeatedly getting tested just to be on set. I was supposed to film something last month in Berlin. It got canceled because some of the people on set had COVID the day of after quarantining for weeks, having to come back and do it. And I just got back. So it's very exhausting just to film one day's work.

It's like multiple weeks of quarantining alone in a hotel room. This is what's happening just to enter Berlin. So wild. From Zurich. I have to get double tested for pit stop and I sit there alone and talk to the TV. Not even a real person. Yeah. And then you have to act like all good. I worked on a scripted television show and it was like the movie Outbreak. I mean, it was wild.

wild. 12 monkeys. Did you have tents on set? Crazy. You know, testing there, testing in the morning. I mean, um, the most out temp checks to like multiple times a day, multiple, um, with the full face of makeup on mask shield. It's like, you know, a lot, it's just very, very crazy. You know, it's a very different reality. How did you protect, protect your face from a mask? I was holding it upon like walking in the building. Don't even get me started. White skin, red lipstick.

And I was like, mama, mama. Let's talk about the tip of the nose contour because that's the first thing to go. Oh, yeah. So unless you've – I mean I know this is more of a Trixie thing and maybe me too because this is where a lot of my little detail work goes as a makeup artist. Yeah, the little shimmer. I would say what you do is detail. I would say I'm doing hieroglyphics over here. Yeah.

You're doing hieroglyphics. You are. With the mask on, I have to like kind of not breathe. And like I was just at the Viacom building and I had to stand outside the door, go like put it on and put it on in a way where I'm trying to like press it up to the nose and not pull on the nose and then get up there, get in my dressing room and immediately snatch it off. One thing I did too was liberally set that part of my face with powder. Oh, yeah. And then do the mask. Really good tip. Honestly, if I...

If you really had to, you really could just do like eyes and then get there into the bottom. That's what I have to do now. If I have to enter a building and drag with a mask, I just wait to do my lips there. But now, while we have, okay, on the subject of beauty, I just got your, thank you, by the way, for sending me the lip kit. Oh, let's take a break. Let's take a quick break. Bye, guys. Bye.

Can you quickly go down the list because I know that what what products have you What products have you made that are your favorite in which ones have if you don't mind like which ones sell? Yeah, so sell the best. We want exact figures. Yeah, and I'm down to the dollar. Patrick, my financing. Do you want the W2s? We're just gonna scrub through them quick on the call. That other woman lipstick. Let me just tell you really quick. So sorry. I used it. I put it on.

And then I pressed the glitter into the lipstick and it stayed. It stayed for hours. Yeah, without glue too, which is nice. I did three lip sync performances on my little, just for myself. Yes. And it stayed. And I'm very aware of glitter lips looking hokey pokey sometimes, you know? Totally. And I really got to like.

I'm very impressed. It's very, it's, it's really great product and it looked fantastic. Thank you. Look crafty or like, you know, your glitters are fab. They're so fine. It's so comfortable. Beautiful. You know how it goes. And I think that takes a bit of, of knowing where your brand direction is like talk from a brand to a brand. Uh,

from the brand to the other brand. From the brand to our brand. No, but your brand is doing quite well and you have so many amazing products and you, your marketing is extraordinary. You really have it. Like we could obviously compliment each other. We, we've, we've seen each other come from walking into a workroom and then to going out into the world and, and, and presenting our own experience. Like what a, what an amazing success. And, um,

With regards to what is my favorite, I really love the lipsticks. They're like my top favorite thing, like Flash of Flesh. I wear that the most for Fashion Week. It's really good for Fashion Week. It's a nude with really not too much rosiness. It's truly like a flesh color. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And How's Your Head is the best seller, but that's obviously because of our...

origin story. Right. And that's why we introduced that specific lipstick. And it's the most user-friendly. I was going to say, this really looks like almost liner optional color. Like, really throw it on. It's like the color of my natural lips. So I based that one more so off of somebody that's afraid of makeup, but it's a full coverage. So depending on your skin tone, you're going to get a payoff.

I wanted to do something conditioning and I wanted the formula to be really, really perfect. So I spent a lot of time in the lab learning about how to create a product. And that is so intense when you're in there because your, your whole future's on the line based off of what you're producing. You're like, this needs to work because people know me for this. It's exactly what I'm doing now. So I'm very proud about what I've created, but it is a lot of work and,

And sometimes I think, what else would I do if I wasn't doing this now? You know? And I think that's a question we've maybe all considered at times, but it's like a fine balance. I think how I keep my drag, um,

Interesting to me is by changing it up kind of within subtle adjustments. So after doing an album and going touring on the bus with the girls for somewhat of a brief moment of my life, I stopped performing altogether because I just...

I felt like I'm not going to be able to manage my image if I'm working all these hours late at night. No shit. And then going to another city, my skin's being compromised. And I was so concerned about how I was being physically affected by being on a tour bus. Like this is so exhausting. And caring about then showing up to an editorial because I was between two worlds. Not everyone's built for it. And I think that protecting yourself is a totally valid thing.

Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, which you're, I mean, just like the day to day, the, the misfame, like beauty regimen. Yeah. I can imagine. Fantastic. By the way, what's the six hour process of preparing the body? Yeah. I don't work out. I eat light and yeah. Water. I sit by the water with my dogs. That's it.

I don't have a perfect lifestyle. I eat a lot of chocolate. Sometimes I smoke cigarettes. I definitely, I think sleep is a huge factor. As we get older, we have to take like, we rest is so essential or else you see it. Like it's on the face. Everything that Mary, whatever you do, it shows up here. Large print, honey in large, large, large print in translated into multiple languages. Um,

Botox fillers, lasers, facials, laser hair removal, blockers. I've done it. You name it. Have you done fibroblasting? I have done it. Fibroblasting? Fibroblasting. Yeah. Resurfacing, retexturing, remolding, crown molding. Vinyl siding. Vinyl siding. Yeah.

She's got aluminum ceiling spokes. I mean, oh God. But. You're skinny. I mean, okay. So it's 7.30 p.m. Can you get close to the camera? 7.40 p.m. in Zurich right now. Wow. I don't know that you have makeup on right. Your brows are perfectly manicured. Oh, I do. I have a little YSL highlighter under the eyes because I did just travel back from one day of work and I was exhausted. Are you microbladed? No.

Oh, no, no, no. I just tweezed my eyebrows so thin for that one day of work. And then when I, because the work is so, it's different. When we do Drag Race, after Drag Race, you have this window where you're literally every single day is like heavy hit. And you're out there in the world in a different city, in a different, not now, but before. And then when you have a bit more, well, you guys have been completely consumed with being busy since kind of forever. Yeah.

whores. Yes, you're in it. Grizzled whores. But I've taken a lot of space because I thought how can I sustain longevity for me? For me, what that looked like was only showing up to specific things. So I do couture and I do Fashion Week in Paris. I haven't really done New York in a while, a couple years.

Um, and I started realizing that my presence at front rows and building this, um, expert viewpoint, because there's only a few of us girls that are attending, uh, these shows. It's me, it's Violet and it's Aquaria. Um, I'm sure at some point in time when we get back to shows, I know Nikki doll has been to going to a few and at some point, Gigi good. We'll probably be at a few, but this is, it's kind of like where fashion pulls in a few, um,

that are like the it girl of that season and also wanting to maintain that because what that looks like for somebody like myself is it can turn into a cosmetic contract, a fragrance contract or walking in a show or being photographed for Vogue or, you know, and so these things that have happened in my career when they started happening, they felt like and were career breakthroughs for drag or gender non-conforming people because...

In 2015, when I went to Cannes, I don't recall ever seeing a drag queen walk the red carpet for a cosmetic brand. I was there as a spokesmodel for L'Oreal. And since then, I was so hard set on keeping that and not losing those type of opportunities. And they're hard enough for girls like Karlie Kloss to maintain. Right. So I was like, it could be lost. We haven't found it too difficult. Yeah. I mean, personally. Oh, I know. Personally, I've been approached. And if I refuse to go, they just bring the runway to my living room.

I can't escape them. I got to ask you, Fabe, about this, about Fashion Week and about attending fashion shows because I see the, you know, I see the photos on my phone and what I see is, you know, this stunning, impossible, incredible glamour.

Effortless. But what I think about is horror, pain, humiliation. Personally, I'm like, what would it take for me to do that? I mean, it just seems like a nightmare, the actual live reality of it. What is it actually like to attend a fashion show in full, flawless drag?

There's a few factors. There's a lot of fittings that happen in advance and I built relationships with stylists that are connected to fashion houses that have decades of experience with all of the most major fashion houses. Meanwhile, certain designers are partial to certain queens so somebody might like Violet more than they like me or they like Aquaria more than they like me. This is just, this is across the board. Somebody always has a favorite.

I didn't win Drag Race. So I, and I'd only done it the one time. So keeping myself relevant without constantly being on a network or a series means that I have to stay visible specifically through Instagram and specifically, also I stopped doing YouTube like years ago. I kind of got burnt out. That's why you were kind of the OG...

YouTube, like, drag makeup. You're the first person to lift the veil in any way and put that information out there. Not to mention, I'm just going to say what no one says. You,

You did drag in a way that you did not pick up from drag queens in clubs. So you could... You did drag makeup different than anyone had done it, really. I loved getting painted by you for your YouTube channel. We just had a good time. It was a really... And thank you. It was really funny. And we laughed a lot. We had a good time. And we were...

You looked great. Able to keep the engagement. Mama, did you laugh? I felt the finish. I went and performed that night and felt like the only person who ever had breasts, pussy, and like real hair growing out of my head. I thought.

I felt like the only woman. You were kind of, I know you wanted to buy that synthetic wig. I was, I surely did. Well, I'm willing to sell it now. Fashion is not what I thought it would. Let me ask you though, now that she's a refugee. Next Pat, next Pat in need. Like when these fashion shows, do you get, I mean, I don't know. I just think about the cliches of like, fashion people. Do you get like, do people quote unquote, take you seriously? Are they nice? Or are, do you ever like, um,

Is there a lot of pressure to maintain a perfect look all day in the daylight? Yes, because sometimes you have several shows in a day and they're very important and you make them because it's a very political industry and you need to be aware that when you're invited, you're being invited by the house

whoever's in control of the house or the designer themselves. So for me with like Kim Jones and Dior, that was a connection because Marc Jacobs, I'd painted Marc Jacobs for fun, for YouTube. Marc Jacobs paid to place that image in an anniversary issue of Vogue where they ran a full page and he's like, do you know how expensive it is to run a page in Vogue? And it was just Marc Jacobs and drag from a selfie from Snapchat that I took and

And it was like that moment to then saying Kim Jones is being introduced and he's the creative director of Dior and it's at DragCon. And then we're taking this photo and then I'm having lunch with Kim Jones. And then it's me, Kim Jones and Naomi Campbell in Soho talking, getting so much personal information. Like I should have written on an NDA because you cannot reshare what the fuck goes on there.

shopping at supreme and knowing like there's no money on my card i can go shopping with these people they're so like naomi campbell's like everything in here they've already sent it to me but that shirt would look good on you and she's so intimidating and i'm like how do i bridge the gap to this woman i've met her in fashion multiple times because of kim jones and mark jacobs sometimes she remembers me sometimes she doesn't and in different cities like paris new york and london all of

This is a very luxury conversation. But I was like at the bottom of the totem pole. But opportunities were opening a dialogue. And I thought these experiences are things that I would, yeah, I'm just like, keep it cool. But I was worried about how I was going to look showing up as Curtis versus as Miss Fame because they were meeting me as this ethereal creature in my real life. I don't, that's not my real life. I mean, you're still pretty ethereal. You're not very beautiful.

You're not a boob or a fool out of drag, let's say that. You're not. The teeth are paid for. Boons and gauntlets. Yeah, the teeth, this is all paid for now. Everything from the neck up that's been invested has brought me to a place of level energy. Because this is something that when you get into the show, you know, they joke in those memes, it says when you're on Drag Race, the season you're on and then all stars and we all look like jacked up, pumped, filled and all that. It's like, yeah, we start investing in ourselves and we have to maintain ourselves and maybe that's Botox and maybe that's,

new teeth and maybe that's new hair and maybe that's new skin and maybe that's new clothing and all of these things come together because we, for the first time, got a taste of what success is like when you start getting paid for your talent. Yeah. So for the first time, you get some money, a lot for a lot of time, you know, I would say the politics of fashion are very, very, um, intense. Uh,

You are around these people and you watch opportunities kind of happen and you you find that a certain designer may favor you But it's it's where you're sitting when that show happens. Who are you sitting with? Are you in that shot is Anna Wintour three people away from you? It's so so heady because it's not organic. It's super constructed and

And it's curated. And then as a result, you have to reflect on all your wins that week and use it as collateral to get you into the right editorial placement to where the current collection of so-and-so so that you're positioned to potentially get a campaign. I'm exhausted just listening to you about it. I mean, this is like... I'm sure there's a lot of accidental rudeness too. Like Naomi Campbell accidentally forgetting her name. Orville Peck was telling me he went to a Dior show and he was seated next to...

a certain Kim Kardashian West and um

Maybe you can bleep that name out, whatever. And they're in the front row. Orville was invited. Of course, the Kardashians were invited and they turned to him. Orville was in head to toe Dior cowboy outfit, right? And they go, this is amazing. Is it real? And Orville's like, how would I be sitting in the front row of this show in a fake Dior outfit? Like, of course it's real. How would I have this seat from knocking off these outfits? As if it was a knockoff? Is that a Santee Alley knockoff? Yes.

And I just remember they earnestly thought like the irony of, of a Kardashian asking if something is real, I guess, I guess because it was one of a kind, you know, that's so funny. There's a lot of accidental sort of it's heady, but you probably are. So you're in drag. You can't take anything too seriously. Yeah.

But the other thing is trying to redirect these people to say, oh, I'm not just, I'm not just entertainment. I'm not here to entertain you. I'm invited as a guest, just like you. The thing is these people, this, these other people, let's say Kim, Kim Kardashian's getting paid a lot of money to attend anything. She's not just showing up. I, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm assuming. Well, no, I'm assuming she doesn't show up. Yeah. I work in accounting. My lipstick told me that, um,

It's a tough road out there. And I, uh, yeah, I think that certain people get paid from what I understand and what people tell me that there is a lot of money being directed around. So trying to gain respect in this industry, not only just to sit there and maybe sometimes receive a coat or receive a bag because the bag won't pay the rent, but

it's a nice gesture. So having to stay around long enough that these designers inevitably will invest in you and say, Hey, we're going to throw you a contract, a multi-year contract that will keep you paid so that one day you can build your life because we want to keep you in fashion versus, Oh, how many times can you jump through hoops for us? Right.

So these are the things I and I've talked about this. I fired my agent at IMG. I was represented in Paris for five years and I just had a meltdown during February of 2020 where I said, I'm no longer going to keep accepting bullshit because I'm literally out here knocking down doors and getting in and claiming opportunities.

but you're sitting back here and wasting my time and I went public with it and I thought maybe it's gonna be my house is on fire kind of situation but at this point I'm getting older and my life is this is like a comfortable experience where I'm at right now well not fully comfortable but I'm living in I have an apartment here in Zurich it's not my forever place

It's not the most ideal situation. I'm still not a homeowner. There's things I want to experience in my life. But I've taken decisions that were really geared towards me satisfying my passion projects. I chose my passion projects over everything. And sometimes when you do that, you need to keep kind of one hand in this basket and one hand in this other basket so that you don't lose maybe your stability.

And what I'm realizing now is I've put so much stock in passion projects that I'm trying to circle back to what really matters. And also looking back at where we all started, that when I moved to New York, I was hopping on couches and I was practicing. Well, I was homeless at times in New York. So this is actually a step in the right direction. It's not been an immediate win. I've never had an immediate. That's the name of your autobiography. Fame.

No longer homeless. Starving. No longer homeless and loving it. I'm, you know, I'm in here, I'm giving you like this deep dive, but this is kind of what I've been thinking about. Honestly, on this podcast, we try to, you know, sometimes accidentally touch on it, but people's relationships with beauty and somebody like you who, I mean,

I hope you give yourself credit. You've only become more beautiful and iconic and somehow even more kind as the years have gone by. And you should be extremely proud of everything you've done with yourself. Yeah. It's so kind of you. And it's a refined, the image has become so refined in, um, we talk about you like this untouchable, like, wouldn't it be crazy if some, if any of us, even for a second looked like that person,

For me, I focus on the hair sometimes. It's like the hair in this area. The temples, the eye, the hair, the hairline. And I'm like...

Not in one million motherfucking years could I ever like get to that point where it's so well done. It is actually flawless, not using hyperbole. And then it just everything is so in place and it stays that way throughout during the day at fucking Fashion Week. It's like truly a marvel. Oh, that's the hardest thing. Daytime. Daytime, Mary. Realness. Without a veil. You cannot have bump.

And I'm a person. I have acne-prone skin. You have to have the perfect moment. It always has to be – you can't have like a shit show. So that means literally going like raw vegan for weeks before fashion week, getting that body line down, taking like tons of supplements, not smoking, not eating sugar, eating only living food. It's over for you. And then getting to Paris and being like, okay, bitch. You lost me at the second word that you said. You just –

You know what? They'll fame to be honest. You know what? People are going to listen and think I sound like the most like upper crust, unobtainable. The reality is I've carved out an experience in this lifetime for moments that that fashion week storyline is only for a fragment of my month, my week, my year. And then I go back to real life where, you know, like shit gets real and I'm at home and I'm like trying to figure out like the other shit going down in life. You're back to slinging roast beef and cheddar at Arby's. Yeah.

Yes. I will say your beauty is so inspiring because it's so peak and so perfect. But having people like you in the world is great because on one hand, of course, it's aspirational. On the other hand, it kind of takes the pressure off some of us. Yes. That like you're there and like thank God she did that. It is very challenging. Because the rest of us are like, who could fault us? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not her. And no one expects us to be her. You know what I mean? Exactly.

Thank you for... I will say, in response to that, you can't... When you set... When image is the only form of how you're managing your monetary goal... Yes, it is. Oh, beauty is what I'm using as collateral here. It's a very dangerous road because you will have a... You shall ruin this for me. We'll catch you and you'll literally be left... So, thankfully...

you know, using humor and using your intellect and finding other ways, like become an expert. Like literally for me, here's where I'm going to sound and I'm going to use big smart words. Be the expert of whatever field you choose to be in so that when you age out and you're no longer the it fact

that your brain is so good at what you do that people will pay for your thought process around it. That you can literally step out, not be seen, and then you can throw information and advice. And I'm hoping that this works out for me in the end. I could just be fucking digging myself in a big golden hole. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I do...

Because my daily living isn't glamorous. It really isn't. I took a shower and I put on a fucking light for you guys. I put a light. I sat in my only room that's done in this fucking apartment. Everything else is boxes. Which one? Can I ask a question? I have to ask. Yes. We're going to take another break just in case. And I have to ask because I know that there's going to be some Drag Race fans who just would love to hear.

Would you ever do, I don't want to say all-stars, but would you ever do like a network TV show, let's say a competition-style show, judging? Glow-up or something? Yeah, like a makeup judging or something? Yeah. Yes. I think I'm at a point where I find, as we just talked about,

giving away that knowledge, that point of perspective. I know what I'm good at and I know that it's based around image and directing image and giving guidance to people that are equally as aspirational to make it in that field. But it's not just specific to fashion. You know, these kind of tips and advices could be given to anybody that does any form of drag, that does any form of

Anything that has a camera involved, you know, knowing kind of body language, where your lighting is supposed to be, what's going to flatter you the most. We all pick up on this stuff. Our job puts us in a position where we start to accumulate. I need this kind of light in order for my makeup to read, Trixie. Yeah. Oh, I mean, it's taken me a long time of confidence in front of the camera to be able to walk into a set and not feel like I'm overstepping my boundaries by telling people what the lights have to do for my style of makeup. Yeah.

Like, I don't want to insult anybody here, but I need you to blast me with a barn light. I don't want this. I don't want to overhead. I don't want side fills. I need you to shoot me. Shoot me like Oprah in her late 80s. And from the heart. Yeah.

It's not even hard, but it is interesting. Hit them hard! Yeah. So what would be your... But yeah, I would love to be involved in that kind of experience. I think, you know, I'm starting to realize that having this dialogue is starting to come up more. I enjoy, I like real human exchanges. Right before Fashion Week and before COVID, the last show I was doing, I did this big interview for Mugler and with Loic Prigent, who's like this fashion...

fashion interviewer that's working with every influential and important fixture in fashion. He's got a very respectful and reputable career in fashion. And when I watched back the footage, because we always check how we've done and how it looks, I thought I had fun. I looked good. Those things matter. And my kind of introspective conversation around fashion is like,

It's like this whimsical, lighthearted approach, but there's a form of knowledge that has come in through kind of being obsessed with beauty and women since the 90s because I was a child of the 80s and the 90s were my comprehensive years. So I really got...

Like what was happening when it was happening. So I think seeing it all come together, you get to a point where you start to have a confidence around what you do. You just know what works for you. You're an expert. You're an expert. It's the truth. And I'm ready for drag. I don't think anything really prepares you to shoot a drag queen like shooting drag queens. So...

Yeah. Yeah. You become an expert. You get used to like, oh, I remember what good light feels like in my eyes. Yeah. And like, yeah, look at the camera and you feel wrong. You're like, this lighting feels like it's really not what it needs to be. Yeah. When it's good, it's reassuring. You feel much better about everything that's going on that day. It takes one piece of the pressure off. And like with drag, I'm sorry, like,

I know a lot of people think I'm Cindy Crawford, but I'm actually not. I know. Cindy Crawfish. Cindy Crawfish. But like one, you know, five degrees of an angle of the chin and, you know, in five little clicks of a light, it is like...

Toe up, boot nasty. Doc Brown. Doc Brown. So yeah, I mean, it's a tricky thing. I think we probably have to wrap it up. Yeah, we're going to have to wrap it. Let me ask you some, I want to ask you a really quick question though. So speaking of 90s inspiration. Linda. Who would be, Linda, it would be Linda, your ultimate icon. Well, I don't know, maybe, yeah, but go ahead, ask the question. Who is your, like, give me three names

Um, like three absolute beauty icons, fashion, beauty, whatever. Um, we're looking at this nude picture of you. Sorry. Oh yeah. That was during the summer. See, I'm going to bring this to a photo shoot. The light doesn't feel right. Can you do more like this? And we'll hold up this nude of you. Yeah, right?

Beauty icons, goddesses, whatever you want to call them. Yeah. Linda Evangelista always. And she's always been it because she's really a master and she knows, um, and she's, it's controlled, but then you, it's a very well studied art form. So she's up there.

Christian McManamy, because she's this really odd character in fashion. It wasn't about conventional beauty. And she was able to kind of carve out her own identity being the...

dirty couture, you know, kind of aspect of fashion. It was this unrefined identity, but then she could be expensive, which I like this about her. Naomi is still untouchable. And I'm using like the top girls, like not these secret sideline girls that were just, but, and Erin O'Connor, this is somebody that I've met in London. She's just,

She was a dancer and I think she identifies more as a dancer than a model, but she's truly a model that has a dance background and her positioning and body language. It's a form of control that I do not have to the degree that a dancer does have. Let's get you in the studio. Yeah, come on. Let's practice those steps, honey.

I know, right? I still don't. I can't move my legs in that way. I can stand, sit, and perch, but there's certain things like, you know, heels are uncomfortable. But I know we've just maxed out, and I don't want to keep you. Oh, yeah. Did we max out on time? Listen, I'm so happy. This was so overdue. We couldn't have a pod about beauty without having somebody like you. You're such a legend. We just love you. Thank you so much. And thank you for sending me your makeup because, bitch, I really love it. Yeah. I really love it. We talk about you all the time.

time that's not weird we talk about you all no yeah i love you guys i'm so proud of what you've been able to achieve and like you you've set the bar and you've continually shown up for all the work and the dedication and it's like it's paying off every i mean it's fully paid off um you give me hope because it's truly a miracle that we were able to break through this hard

viola told me yesterday it's amazing i'm so amazed with everything you've done because honestly i didn't see it for you no it's hard i can't believe how hard it is to keep managing it and you know how many people tell us from our series they're like your season has had so many incredible stars like your season still has some of the most influential people that have left drag race and gone on to change the narrative out there i keep saying change the narrative but we we have yeah and you

You know what? Your name is the top of that list when people start listing those people. So congratulations. I can't wait till everything ends and you can come visit us in Los Angeles again. We miss you. Yes, please do.

And good luck in Zurich. Maybe I'll start painting faces again. Thank you, my love. I appreciate that. I love you, fame. Thank you so much. Bye.