Is Liz Cheney the GOP Cassandra? 57:26

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Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Areza, and our guest today is former Republican lawmaker Liz Cheney, the former congresswoman from Wyoming. Finally, it's only been three years that we've been trying to book her, and all it took, it turns out, was a book. Yeah, she has Oath and Honor, which is coming out, which is a play-by-play, behind-the-scenes description of what was happening inside the

Capitol after the 2020 election. She's got a lot to say about that, and her role as vice chair of the January 6th committee in the book. And it's a pretty harsh takedown of the big players, the Republican Party and, of course, Donald Trump. The subtitle of the book, Oath and Honor, is a memoir and a warning. What did it strike you more as, a memoir, a warning, or a subtle hint at a political future, maybe a third-party run? I don't think it's

particularly subtle. I don't think it's very subtle. I think she's, you know, she's genuinely worried about the direction of the problem, but she obviously took more

She gave up more than most people. She was at the top of—she could have done a lot of things, and she didn't. So I think this is a genuine expression of horror at what Donald Trump did. And, you know, she can come off for some as self-righteous and angry, but I think that that's the appropriate emotions at this moment. Yeah. She obviously paid, as you were saying, a huge price. She lost her role at NBC.

the GOP conference in spring of 2021. She also lost her primary, of course, in Wyoming in 2022. She has become somebody with an extremely important message, but with no party, no home. Yeah, a lot of people are like that. We've interviewed Adam Kinzinger. You know, even our interview with Mike Gallagher, you could see him straining at trying to stay in the Trump camp, right? He's on the edge of this, hanging out by his fingernails.

You know, a lot of these people, as she noted, call him names and make fun of him behind the scenes and in private, but then stick with him publicly because of the repercussions of losing their jobs. And she didn't mind losing her job, obviously. Yeah.

Yes. And the book has been at the center of this news blitz. It's crazy to imagine after all we've lived through, you know, we've lived through January 6th, the hearings thereafter, the 24-7 Trump coverage that there has been, that there's still new stories to be told, and yet she had some. Orange Jesus was one of my favorites. But what the book really offers is a glimpse into some of the workings and the characters of Congress from Cheney's lens, the people she warred with, and also the people she really, the friendships, the unlikely friendships.

the unlikely partnerships she developed with Zill Loughran, California, with Nancy Pelosi, who was then the House Speaker, and to some extent, Mitch McConnell. Yeah, a little bit. No, I mean, it's not a surprise. Ted Cruz is an idiot and a...

And a suck-up. You know, Mike Johnson is a suck-up. Yeah, but a little-known character nationally until the House speakership and her book delves into him in detail. Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, she was aware of what he was doing around trying to push election fraud conspiracy theories within Congress, and she was offended by it. Yes. You know, I—

Liz Cheney is someone who's very conservative. I'm going to ask her. People have forgotten what she's for. Yeah, she voted with Trump 90% of the time. Yeah, more than that, I think. And she's a very staunch conservative. Obviously, she's shifted some of her attitudes. I think she's a quiet feminist, even though she never takes—I'm going to ask her directly about that.

I think she's become a bit of a liberal, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. It's like Adam Kinsey. I don't know. She wants a staunchly—she wants a—what is it? Like a fully conservative party option that's outside maybe of the two-party system. Well, good luck with that. But the thing that animates her is this stark warning against Donald Trump. It is that he's the most dangerous man to ever hold office. He's the one that would upend democracy. She told CBS, we could be sleepwalking into dictatorship, which is a really—

large claim, suggests he would never relinquish his seat in the White House if he were to get elected again. And not like in a Mike Bloomberg, I'm going to run a third term constitutionally kind of way, you know, amend it kind of way. In a

in a real dictatorship. Did that scare you more about Trump, or were you already at max concern? No, I think that's precisely, I already understand. I think many people, but I think her saying the message to a lot of people is important. The question is, are people going to hear it? Are they tired and want to move along from, okay, so we tried to overturn the election, what's next kind of thing? And so I think she's fighting that. I do think there's a quiet and

powerful people in this country, voters, who are tired of the whole thing and want to move on from Donald Trump. But we'll see. We'll see what happens in the next election. Let's see who reads the book and who she has an audience with in many ways. But hopefully it brings back...

I think that is rather exceptional about America, which is the institutions, right? These institutions that— Yeah, absolutely. And she talks a lot about the Constitution, which never goes out of style. Well, one thing, Cheney told The Washington Post she's considering a third-party run and she's going to make the decision in the next month.

Let's see if we can get her to make a decision in the next 45 minutes instead. Probably not, but we'll try. We'll try. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with former Congresswoman Liz Cheney.

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Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. Hi. Hi, guys. How you doing? I'm good. I want to start, I want to put in the back of your mind, because I'm going to ask you this at the very end, about you have five children, is that correct? That's right, yeah. I do want to talk about future and the kids and children and what you're doing this for, but maybe that is the actual way to start.

You have five kids, which is a lot of kids. I have four, which is definitely a lot of kids for a lesbian. For somebody who's straight, too, it's a lot. Yeah, it is. Oh, yeah, right. I'm sorry. I should say that. Fair point. Fair point. So I want to talk about why you did this. You talk a lot about in these interviews about the Constitution and about your duty and your oath and your honor. But I'm wondering if there was one thing around your family and your kids that inspired you here. Yeah.

Well, certainly a sense of fear that, you know, all of a sudden this recognition that those things that we had taken for granted, you know, those of us, frankly, in our generation and even in some younger generations, you know,

taken for granted the fact that we would grow up in a country where the peaceful transfer of power was just a given. And, you know, one of the things that was really so jarring for me was when I had this sudden realization that my kids might not be able to say the same thing. And that just really brought home to me the

magnitude of the moment and the danger that we're facing. And so certainly that has been a driving force. But ultimately, it really it's about, you know, doing what's right. It hasn't felt to me like there was really a choice at any moment through this. So it was interesting because Mike Pence's son encouraged him to think about the Constitution. Did you consult with your family when you understood the risks here? Yeah.

I mean, it has been an ongoing discussion, both with my parents, with my husband, with our kids, an ongoing discussion in different ways. Certainly in the period of time right after the election, before January 6th, my dad had a very clear understanding of the threats, the risk.

I think that we've all been very much aligned throughout. And there hasn't really been a moment of sort of any questioning about whether or not I would do what was right. You know, we've certainly had moments of, you know, increased threat, moments when we received threats, you know, including to our kids, which is the hardest thing. And the thing, of course, as a mom that...

makes me the angriest, as you can imagine. But, you know, there's just, there's never been a moment of people saying, well, you know, maybe, maybe you shouldn't do what's right here. Okay, let's start with the book. I want to run through some of the chapter titles in no particular order. President Trump is a 76-year-old man. He's not an impressionable child. Ketchup on the Wall, which is one of my favorites, and You're Welcome at Cary Lake. I'm curious, who you think the audience for this book is?

You know, I think that the book is really meant to tell the history of this period of time. And I certainly think that that's a history that all Americans deserve to know. So I wouldn't say that the book is sort of angled or pitched toward any segment or audience in particular. It's really meant to be the story of what happened here and the story of the threat that

And I think it's especially important because the threat continues. And I think the story of the sort of what happened inside the House Republicans especially and how quickly people

sort of lost their way, how quickly people decided that, well, you know, we aren't in fact going to do the hard thing, but we're going to choose an easier path and how dangerous that can be. So there are a lot of quotes getting attention, obviously, you know, as you wrote the book and revisited the fallout and the time itself as you were and the select committee investigation, was there a particular moment that struck you as particularly frightening or ludicrous? There's many moments here. Was there one that just stuck in your head? Yeah.

Well, you're right. I mean, there are many. And the process of writing the book itself was reliving a lot of those moments. And I think one of the moments that was so chilling...

Of course, everything that happened on the 6th itself without question and the violent assault and going through again moment by moment the fact that Donald Trump was watching this happen on television and he wouldn't tell people to go home. But also sort of the whole series of events on January 4th.

when I was on the Trump surrogate call and understood really for the first time in detail what their plan was and that recognition of, you know, my God, this is really what they're trying to do. And it's really possible, you know, that they have convinced the vice president, for example, to simply throw out legitimate electoral votes and realizing throughout the course of that day, you know,

what a near-run thing it was, I think certainly, you know, it made me feel nauseous as I slowly realized on that day how close we were to a very serious constitutional crisis. And you put out warnings, it's sort of a Cassandra-like thing, and you described before the January 6th that the violence was what you anticipated, especially given what Trump was saying earlier.

you know, publicly and also online. Right. And I think before January 6th, there were a series of moments where I felt like I had some insight into, um,

very troubling things, but I didn't see the whole picture. So, you know, when he fired his Secretary of Defense, for example, when it became clear... Mark Esper. Yes, Mark Esper, right. And when it became clear that we weren't just, you know, going to have sort of a series of challenges in court, which he had the right to bring, candidates can do that if they have a basis for it.

But as the days progressed and it became clear that he was going to ignore the rulings of the courts and continue to make these claims that had no basis in fact or the law. So it was a real growing recognition of the threat. And at each moment...

Because of the position I was in as the conference chair, I was working to try to help provide information to the Republicans in the conference to explain to them, look, here's what's happened in these court cases. Here's what our constitutional obligation is. Of course, working to get the secretaries of defense to issue a really public warning about the potential personal criminal liability for people like Secretary of Defense Miller and others if they obeyed Donald Trump's illegal orders. So it really was a series of sort of

recognizing bits and pieces of his plan and trying to stop him. And you had got, in December 2020, 10 living former secretaries of defense, including your father, signed a Washington Post op-ed declaring the election over and warning against military intervention, which you were part of. Axios called it a Cheney power play, suggesting your agenda was to gain power for yourself.

Is that a fair critique? And why not disclose your role in the op-ed? Were you trying to work behind the scenes rather than in front of them?

I actually hadn't heard that critique before. No, I talk about this in the book. And, you know, as I was sort of watching what Trump was doing, then near the end of December, David Ignatius published an op-ed in which he went through and, you know, he's well sourced in the Pentagon, I knew, and talked sort of about the very real concern that we were seeing inside the Department of Defense.

Ignatius's proposal was that we should get a delegation of high-level Republicans to go privately to Trump and tell him it's over. And I knew that that wouldn't work. Going to him privately would certainly not be effective. And I talked with Eric Edelman, a former undersecretary of defense, about what we could do. And I talked to my dad about it. And the notion that we would get this very unprecedented bipartisan group of secretaries to sign on to this letter of

Very public warning is what we arrived at, what we decided on. But I think it was very important as a direct and personal warning for the people involved. Sure, but it's sort of the way old Washington behaves. Like he can't possibly ignore all the Secretary's defense. He can't possibly do this, but of course he could. Did you think his words and actions were impeachable offenses anyway?

even at that point in December 2020, lying about the legitimacy of election, calling for supporters to come to Washington, or that was fair game for him? Well, at that point in time, you know, you can sort of look at what I knew at the time. And then also you have to, though, now, and I try to do this in the book, too, look at what we all learned afterwards during our investigation. And I think very clearly, well,

Well, I think probably, in fact, the phone call to Raffensperger was likely an impeachable offense. This is Brad Raffensperger from Georgia. Right. Certainly, you know, as we were being evacuated from the House chamber on January 6th, there was no question in my mind at that moment, you know, I believe that at that moment he had to be removed from office because he was a danger, because he was a direct threat to the Republic. And...

One of the things that I learned, again, afterwards in the investigation was in that period of time between January 6th and January 20th, the people closest to Trump also thought that. You know, people like Sean Hannity and Kayleigh McEnany were saying, listen, the threat of impeachment, 25th Amendment, they're real. He's got to stop talking about stolen elections. And and but they were working to isolate him from.

I think because they themselves recognized how much of a threat he was to simply being able to, you know, as they said at some point, land the plane. You always seem surprised in the book. One of the things I took away from it that so many of your colleagues and former friends are criticizing Trump privately but advocating for him publicly is

I'm curious why that shocked you. This kind of has been the modus operandi of the entire GOP with Trump. And for a time, you voted with him more than 90% of the time. Why did that surprise you? And what changed your mind specifically? Was it this action on January 6th or right after the election? Well,

I supported his policies, I think, over 90% of the time. Yeah, 93%. In terms of when I was voting with him in the House. When I disagreed with him, which happened particularly on national security issues, I did speak up publicly when he talked about things like considering NATO being obsolete or his comments at Helsinki. So I did publicly disagree with him publicly.

But on policy, his administration broadly was pursuing policies that I believed in, not in every case, but in most of the cases, and policies that were right for the people I represented in Wyoming. And so my sort of personal views and policy beliefs haven't changed. But what certainly did change for me was the sense of

When you have a situation where people are saying privately, this conduct is impeachable, he has committed high crimes and misdemeanors, but then they go out publicly and say, no, he hasn't, or I just am not going to speak up.

That's a very different thing than saying, you know, I agree on these policies, I disagree on these policies. To me, the big difference is we're now at a moment in the country where those policy debates, they matter a lot, but they are not nearly as

important as the broader issue about are you going to elect somebody who's going to support our institutions and the Constitution? When you were doing this, there were other conservatives like Mitt Romney who voiced opposition. Do you regret not acting sooner? Do you think about it back then? Because everyone acted as if things were normal, but they weren't.

Certainly, I regret supporting him. I think that many of us in the party, especially if you have had experience with Washington, with how the White House works, there are structures in place in the White House that very much do support

I think, change presidents. Presidents come into that office and they're suddenly confronted with the reality of this awesome power that is theirs. And I believed that he would grow in the office. I think many people did. And clearly we were wrong. That's not what happened. But so, you know, I think that people ask me about regrets. And I often get that question in the context of

Do you regret anything that's happened since the 2020 election or since January 6th? And I don't. I do regret having supported Trump, certainly.

So one of the things that you did once you started voicing your opposition is you got a lot of, I guess it's the loud woman speaking up problem, which you described really well in the book from Representative Ralph Norman of South Carolina saying you've got such a defiant attitude, the version of bossy or loud woman. Representative Mike Kelly of Pennsylvania made a memorable analogy in describing how

betrayed. He felt it's like you're playing the biggest game of your life and you look up and see your girlfriend sitting on the opponent's side. I just would love you to reflect on this. Was that, again, a surprise to you? I've heard it my whole life. It was a surprise to me because I've never in any

any professional setting in any setting at all encountered sort of that level of sexism. And obviously the notion of, you know, the problem is that you're too defiant, right?

And, of course, it was very memorable at the end of this meeting that you're describing was about a four-hour meeting where I stood at the front of this auditorium and presided over. People went to the microphones to support me, but there were a lot of people who were saying very critical things. Yeah.

But at the end of it, Congressman Mike Turner came over to me and said, you know, I just got to spend four hours listening to a bunch of men complain that a woman isn't taking their feelings into account. I thought, you know, that was not an inept description of the meeting we had just had.

So when they did that, now no House Republicans voted to impeach Trump the first time. That was over Ukraine. Just 10 voted to impeach him the second time after January 6th, including you. That had immediate consequences. You were ousted as the House Republican conference chair for openly criticizing Trump. You were the third most powerful Republican in the House, and then you were not impeached.

What went into that decision making? Because again, you said, I do the right thing. I'm upholding the Constitution. But it's also a political calculus. It's a power calculus, giving something like that up. You thought that's what would happen? Or did you hope maybe they'll see the light kind of thing?

Yeah, you know, what's very interesting is to compare the process, the attempt to oust me in February of 2021, which was unsuccessful. And, you know, I won that vote very significantly. Compare that with what happened in May of 2021 when I was ousted from leadership. And I really think that's an important timeframe because in February, when this first effort arose, it

first of all, I made a real effort to lobby for support, to whip votes. And again, as I said, I succeeded. And at that point in time, I really thought, look, there is a chance here that we're going to move past Trump. There's a chance that even though we only had 10 Republicans vote to impeach him, and even though we've been through this airing of grievances in the conference and people are very angry on some level, we can put him in the

By May, it was absolutely clear that wasn't happening. And I didn't, in May, I didn't even make an attempt to try to save my leadership position

in large part because by then it became clear that no objection to Trump, no opposition to Trump was going to be tolerated. And that in fact, to be in leadership meant you would have to not just acquiesce in the lies about the election, but spread them. And why was that? What happened in those two months where you thought, again, it's that sort of normal, like Washington operating as usual when he is unusual? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of things that happened. I think one of the big things that happened was right after January 6th, when big corporations announced that they were not going to be giving money to Republicans anymore, then leader Kevin McCarthy was in an untenable position. He had to be able to generate contributions to Republican members.

And so his response, uh, was to, to go back, to go down to Trump, to Mar-a-Lago and, and welcome Trump back in. And he needed access to Trump's lists of donors. And, and there were a series of things like that that happened. Um, at one point Trump was threatening to leave the party and reportedly Ronna McDaniel, the chairwoman of the party, you know, basically pleaded with him not to leave and, um,

And so, you know, the embrace of Trump and the willingness to sort of say, well, January 6th wasn't all that bad. There was just a sort of a growing momentum in that direction, which that time period, I think, really, really demonstrates. Between February and May. And, of course, you also agreed to serve on the select committee to investigate January 6th. And it was only you and Adam Kinzinger, who we've also interviewed recently, agreed.

Talk about what it was like in the House during those months, the threats you faced, but also the atmosphere with your former colleagues. Because McCarthy had a chance to put a lot of Republicans on the committee. Pelosi extended them, and then he declined to take that up. Yeah, yeah.

It was very sad in many ways. It made me angry. I loved the House of Representatives. I really believed in the House of Representatives as a place where you could have the important debates of our time. And when I was first elected, I made a real effort to go sit down next to members on both sides of the aisle that I didn't know about.

And understand, talk to them, learn about why they were in the House. I had the chance to run for the Senate a couple of years ago, and I chose not to because I love the House so much. And so...

That period of time when I watched so many of my colleagues do the wrong thing, it was difficult. And it was difficult not just obviously personally, but it was difficult because of what I knew it meant for the country and for the danger that we were facing. Did they do that to you privately? Was the private posturing different than a public posturing? It varied. I think that there certainly were many of them privately who said to me,

you know, you're doing a great thing. Thank you so much for doing what you're doing. Go girl. Go girl. Yeah, you go girl. Yeah. And that, you know, so that certainly happened. I do think that if the impeachment vote had been a secret ballot, it would have looked far more like the vote, you know, that I prevailed in in February to stay in leadership. So that was the case. But there also were people that I respected, thought were honorable, and

And I think on some level, it was they knew that what they were doing was dishonorable, and that's a pretty hard thing to face. And every time I spoke out, it sort of put a spotlight on that. So for having loved the House, you didn't just lose your leadership position. You lost your next election in 2022. The Wyoming primary of your trunk-backed opponent, who was a former friend, beat you by more than 30 percentage points.

Many Republicans saw and still see you as a traitor to the party. Some people, now they're trying to say you only got elected because of your father, Dick Cheney. How do you deal with those criticisms and that loss? I mean, well, the criticisms, you know, I ignore the criticisms because it's clear what's happened to my party. The seat itself, you know...

I knew that there would be a moment where, you know...

particularly the decision to join the select committee, that that would have very significant negative political consequences for me. But I also don't believe that that House seat or any House seat is more valuable than making sure that we're doing what we're required to do because of the Constitution and our oath to the Constitution. What about being with people back in Wyoming? You've got

highly criticized by people who had been highly supportive of you previously. Yeah. I mean, there were all sorts of events that I never would have anticipated. You know, in one instance, we pulled up outside of a coffee shop in Rock Springs, Wyoming, and there were a group of protesters outside with, you know, signs that said, Liz Cheney's a traitor. I invited them inside, which I think surprised them. And

And the capital security detail with me also, I think, was surprised. But I said, come in so we can talk about this. And I spent a significant amount of time talking to them, sort of walking through. One of them said to me,

I just disagree with every one of Biden's policies. So I don't know how you could have voted to impeach Trump. And trying to explain that those are very different things. I disagree with Biden's policies and a large number of his policies. But that doesn't mean that I can abandon what I'm required to do with respect to the Constitution.

And so there were a lot of episodes like that. There were also very moving episodes where people that had not supported me in the past did. One of my favorite pieces of mail that I got was very simple and a very Wyoming way, it

It just said, Liz, I never liked you much, but I'm starting to. That's how I feel. I'm sorry. That's how I feel. And liberals aren't that bad, and they can be somewhat fun. Speaking of which, the most liberal liberal, Nancy Pelosi and Zoe Lofgren, are they friends now? Do you consider them friends? How do you look at that relationship? Well, I certainly, you know, with both of them have just huge, tremendous relationships.

Respect, newfound respect. Zoe Lofgren and I worked together very closely on the committee, um,

And again, someone I knew, Zoe, by reputation. I'd spoken to her a few times, but I was just so impressed throughout the time on the committee with her diligence, her commitment. And I talk in the book about the fact that she really, she operates in a way that is very unusual in Congress and in Washington, which is without any ego. She just wants to get the job done, do the right thing, represent her constituents, and

And I really valued her judgment and guidance. And with respect to Speaker Pelosi, you know, I, again, she and I had been on opposite sides of most of the major political debates. But

I was, throughout this period, impressed with her determination to get this right. Impressed, you know, every single time that I would go to her and say, Madam Speaker, we're having a debate about X, Y, or Z. We need to go this direction. Every time she backed me up. And it was risky for her to put me on the committee, I'm sure from her perspective. She didn't know me. Absolutely, although good for her too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean...

So I do have newfound respect for a number of Democratic members. Are you still in touch with her? Occasionally. Occasionally. We'll be back in a minute.

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Let me shift gears and talk about Congress now, because I'd love to spin this forward. So in the 2022 midterms, you endorsed a number of Democrats facing Trump-backed Republicans. You told Judy Woodruff it would be better for the country if Republicans didn't regain control of Congress. What's your take on what's going on in Congress now?

You know, it's a mess. And that's a technical political term. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Appreciate it. But it really, you know, we have huge challenges, as you know, huge threats facing this country on a whole range of issues. And then if you think about...

this really complicated set of challenges and issues. And we elect people that really are not up to the task. And what's happened on the Republican side is we have let sort of the most radical group of people who support Donald Trump, frankly, take over. And it's...

And watching sort of the good people leave, I think today you have had, for example, Congressman McHenry, the chairman of the Financial Services Committee, he said that he's not going to run again. And you see that among a number of the impeachers today.

So it's a sad moment and I think a moment where we really need to look at how we can bring change and bring some of the good people back into office. So let's talk, obviously the obvious person is House Speaker Mike Johnson, someone probably you never thought would be a House Speaker. He was fairly unknown nationally until fall. You worked with him and you're friends with him, I think. I was, yeah. But you wrote extensively in the book about how he rallied Republicans to support Trump's stolen election.

You have called him in this book tour a collaborator and an enabler. Collaborator is a very loaded word. Talk to me about how concerned, Trump collaborator, how concerned you were about him in this leadership role. And be specific. What is your greatest worry about him since you liked him and you were a friend of his previously? Yeah.

My worry about him is that he is willing to do things he knows to be wrong. And I was very, very surprised at that.

the way that he operated and the extent to which, you know, he would call himself a constitutional lawyer. And in many cases, you know, with respect to the amicus brief, with respect to the objections afterwards, when I would speak to him, you know, he would acknowledge that

that what I was saying was correct with respect to the Constitution or the law. But then he would go on again and advocate for these things that were constitutionally unsound to our colleagues. And it was the way that he operated, and it was the extent to which he was willing to do things that

Not just I, but others. You know, Kevin McCarthy's own chief counsel, you know, wrote to me that she had talked to him and that he knew what he was doing was constitutionally infirm. But he still did it. And so it's one thing to have somebody who's, he was then vice chair of the conference, you know, was sort of working behind the scenes in some ways to help do Trump's bidding.

And, of course, when I wrote the book and finished it in September and sent it off to the printer, I had no idea that he would be elected speaker. And it's particularly dangerous to have somebody like that wield the gavel. Dangerous. Dangerous. Because why? Dangerous.

Dangerous because the Speaker of the House, first of all, is second in line to the presidency. The Speaker of the House is someone that you have to be able to count on as somebody who is going to uphold the Constitution. And the combination of Johnson calling himself a constitutional lawyer and then taking these steps that were unsupportable. And I know a lot of real constitutional lawyers, conservative ones, are

And none of them agreed with what Johnson was doing during this period. But the fact that he was willing to do it when he knew it was wrong presents a threat, including if you think about counting the electoral votes in 2025, if you think about the possibility that we could have a contingent election, the election might be thrown into the House if no candidate gets 270 electoral votes.

And in those circumstances, the Speaker of the House, you know, could do real damage if he's simply trying to do Trump's bidding. Again, this happens over and over again, whether it's Kevin McCarthy, who you obviously have no admiration for. At this moment, Donald Trump is still the clear GOP presidential frontrunner in 2024, even though he faces a number of legal challenges. I'd love to get your thoughts.

idea of why he remains so popular, if you were looking at it from a political perspective, he may be Orange Jesus, but Jesus is still in that name, you know, orange or whatever color he happens to be. So why is that from your perspective? I think it's a number of things. I think that there is an element of a cult of personality. I think that he is particularly skilled at telling the big lie and convincing people to believe it. And I mean, really, if you stop and think about

the millions of hardworking Americans from whom he has, you know, stolen money, you know, the fraud that he's perpetrated, the lies that he spread everywhere.

In order to try to overturn the election and also in order to fundraise. And he's gotten people to give them, you know, people who don't have much to give them their hard-earned income for a complete lie. And so that ability to do that is something that you can't discount. And I think that's a part of what we see here. I think that another part of it is...

I'm just curious if you have any sense of why. I just interviewed Mark Esper. He could not explain it himself at all why that was the case, besides political power. I think it's power, but I also think there really are people who feel like they haven't been heard. You know, I will never forget, there was a constituent of mine who came to see me early in my first term, who was a member of the Boilermakers Union in Wyoming. And he said to me this

This is like 2017. He said, I'm a man without a party. And I asked him what he meant. And he said, you know, the Democrats have left me, you know, to embrace what he viewed as sort of radical environmentalism. And he looked at me and he said, you Republicans, you never liked the unions. And he said, the only person who's ever spoken for me is Donald Trump. And I think there are millions of people who have bought into this sort of con man mentality.

that Donald Trump has taken. And I also think that there are elements of it that are cultish. I do think the term cult of personality is very apt.

And I think that the real risk that we run in 2024 is that there are people who don't fall into either of those categories, but people who are very worried, whether it's about the economy, whether it's about national security, America's role in the world, about our border, people that are, you know, sort of

or maybe moderates who get to the point where they think, well, you know what? Donald Trump is the lesser of two evils here and think that he's an acceptable option. And I think that's a very...

very real potential threat and something that we've got to make sure people know that he's not an acceptable option. So one of the things that's happening is another option, independent bids, especially the prospective bid from conservative Democrat like West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin. Do they help or hurt Trump? I think it depends. And obviously you've noted that you might have that in you too, a third party run.

Yeah, I think my view of the situation is it's so important that we defeat him that we have to be willing to look at any sort of all possible ways to do that. And, you know, at every election cycle, presidential cycle until now, that's not really something that I think most people on either side of the aisle would have considered. But I think this is a different moment. And I think it's...

The question about whether an independent run helps or hurts Trump is fundamentally important. Nobody ought to go down that path if it's going to help Trump. I certainly would not. But I also think that we have to make sure that we have the best people on the field. So you are weighing a decision yourself. What are the factors in that? I haven't ruled it out, I guess is how I would put it. Okay. But the factors...

really are what's necessary to defeat Trump. And I don't look at it so much as a personal question about what I'm going to do or not do, because I think everybody's got to be very much focused on

24 and defeating Trump. I think there are a whole range of questions about what happens after 24. And look, I also don't think it's a done deal completely that Trump's the Republican nominee. And so, you know, I think it looks pretty likely, but nobody's voted yet. So there's still there's a chance that he isn't.

There's also a chance that Joe Biden's not the Democratic nominee. We don't know for sure yet who those candidates are going to be on both sides. So why not rely on someone who's gaining momentum like Nikki Haley? How do you look at her candidacy?

Look, I think there are a number of Republicans, you know, who could potentially defeat Trump. I think that defeating him at each step of the way is, you know, something we all ought to be looking to do. I don't want to endorse any Republican over another. I don't think that helps those people necessarily. But I think, you know, there are a number of Republican candidates who

it's not a big number, but there are some that I know would abide by the Constitution and certainly would... Would you consider backing one of them? Or do you think it's sort of, at this moment, a kiss of death for them to say Liz Cheney, backed by Liz Cheney, that Trump would use? I mean, again, I would never want to do anything that would help Trump. And so I think certainly, you know, we'll see what happens. I may back one of them. But

But again, I'm very, very sensitive to the fact that I don't want to create ammunition for Trump to use against anybody on the Republican side. And again, you said a number of weeks when you were deciding. Is there any significance to a timeline deciding within a few weeks? So if not announcing by January, you're ruling it out?

No, and I don't think January is the date, actually. I think that we need to know more about sort of how the nominations are gelling on both sides. And so I think it's going to be within the next couple of months is how I'm looking at it. Looking at it. All right. Because of that, I would love to remind people where you do stand on issues, because I think policy has gotten lost here because you've been talking about the Constitution, about honor, about oaths.

about bigger issues, but there still are policies that people do vote on and everything else. And I'd love to do a very quick lightning round of where you stand and if it's changed at all. Immigration. I think that we have to be a country that recognizes and understands

that we ought to be really blessed that people want to come and live here. And I think that that compassion and that pride in welcoming immigrants to this country has been lost. I think at the same time, what's happening at our border right now is completely indefensible. And the extent to which the border is open, the extent to which you have even demonstrations

Democratic mayors and governors urging President Biden to take action to control the border, especially when we're watching what's happening around the world today and we understand the danger that can be posed by lone wolf actors or others coming in who wish us ill. So we need to fix our legal immigration system, right?

And we also have to do a much better job at enforcing the system that prevents illegal immigration. We have to know who's coming into the country. It's fundamental to being a sovereign nation. What about abortion? You had previously, I think, I believe 20 weeks is where you had settled. What is your stance now? I think this is a really, really difficult issue. I...

believe very strongly that, um, we have to think about and talk about this issue, um, again, with compassion. Um, and I think we have to be very clear, um, that, that, you know, we are, you know, talking about, um, talking about a situation where, uh,

When you think about what the court has done, I do believe this is an issue that should be left up to the states. The states. But do you have a number? Constitutionally?

You know, what I would say about it is, and I'm just, I'm being very frank with you about this. I think that what I've seen happen around the country since Roe was overturned. Roe was overturned. In some cases, we've seen state legislatures take action that has troubled me. And I think, again, when particularly you have

Mostly male legislators who are making pronouncements and talking about issuing criminal penalties, imposing criminal penalties for people who do things like try to help a 10-year-old girl who's been raped or who's been the victim of incest. Those are situations that have happened.

presented a real difficulty and a real challenge. In other cases, I think that, you know, the legislatures have spoken, the citizens of these states in a couple of instances have spoken. You know, and I'm not...

I guess what I would say is that I do think that there comes a moment where we have to recognize that we're talking about a baby. And while we do everything we can to protect the life of the mother, we also have to protect the life of that baby. And I say that as a mother of five. Okay.

Last one, China. You objected to caps on defense spending. That was the only times you voted against Trump and spoken about going tough on China. I just did a long Mike Gallagher interview where I think you probably aligned with him on that. Anything that you would focus in on if you were running?

Yeah, I think that China presents a very, very grave threat. I think that the Chinese, and I think this is something that parties, presidents of both parties have gotten wrong over the years. I think that the Chinese Communist Party has been at war with the United States across a number of different domains for many years, and we haven't recognized it. And I think that we need to understand that both the speed with which they're developing and deploying weapons systems that we don't have

presents a security threat to us, as well as across the board, the extent to which their efforts to use technology to impose a sort of a global surveillance state presents a threat fundamentally to our way of life. I think we need to do much better in terms of the resources we're deploying

And in terms of recognizing the threat that they pose. Okay, very last question. You say you'll do anything to prevent Trump from winning. That might mean voting for President Biden, but it also puts you further at risk. Just recently, Steve Bannon said, you're going to get your day about you. Response to that? And what are you willing to do next? I mean, what I would say to people listening to this is, you know, if you're on the fence about whether or not

you should hold your nose and vote for Donald Trump, you ought to imagine Steve Bannon with tremendous power. You ought to imagine what would happen in an administration in which Steve Bannon was put into a critically important position because that's what we're looking at. So I think that Steve Bannon has got a number of issues he ought to be focused on himself, including the fact that he's been found guilty of contempt of Congress.

But he presents a real example of the kinds of people Donald Trump would surround himself with and the real

the real threat to the republic that that involves. Does that make you scared personally for you and your family? Look, I think that Donald Trump has introduced violence into our political system in a way that we have not seen in recent memory. And it's a reality that we all have to confront. But it also means we all have a duty to say, no, we're not going to go down that path. That's not something we accept. And it's not something we're going to tolerate in this country. And you yourself aren't going to back down.

No, of course not. All right. We'll end on that. Liz Cheney, thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for all your time. Liz, I never liked you much, but I'm starting to. Well, you know, you have to admire when someone makes a stand and doesn't back down. That's the right thing. I was going to say, I actually like Liz Cheney. She's so measured. Yeah. She's pretty doomed, but in a really calm tone. You said Cassandra, but she's

Kind of telling us the country might implode, but in a very non-screaming way. She was screaming a little louder. Do you still think she's basically a liberal? She sounded plenty conservative. No, she's plenty conservative. I think she's open-minded. You know what I mean? We've interviewed a lot of, you know, I don't agree with Ken Buck. I don't agree with Mike Gallagher on many things. You know, he was railing about Christmas trees or something the other day, and I thought, oh, stop it. I almost wrote him, like, please stop it. But I think you have to reach across aisles. She talked about that. Mm-hmm.

But that's a Washington of another day. I think that's the problem is they sleepwalked into this. They thought Trump was normal and they could handle him. And, of course, that's a story that we've heard before. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate the reminder she brought up about that vote in February of 2021 because I think about that a lot as a journalist.

That time shortly after January 6th when Liz Cheney kept her role in the GOP conference. And then Marjorie Taylor Greene was stripped of her committee duties around the same time. And then fast forward not just to May of 2021 when Cheney's ousted from the conference, but to these days and the grip of power Trump has retained. And it's a really interesting study in the decay of the salience of January 6th.

of the event. And I wonder if there's something, like we asked her what she regrets. I wonder, is there a way that we could have, that the story could have been more present? I don't know how people have moved on or bored of January 6th. They're bored of it. They've seen the pictures, they've formed their opinion and they've moved on. That's the American way. It really is. I think that's what they're fighting against is people, the lack of memory of so many things. And then the annoyance when you're reminded of, of,

of what actually happened. But that is the country today. That's the world today. It's fueled by social media and what's next and constant news. Yeah, but some things grip the imagination for a long time. I mean, look at this war. But one thing that struck me, she was very Washingtonian, very effective deflector. She skirted the question on the op-ed and

her not disclosing that role earlier. She didn't take the bait on Nikki Haley. She can't back Nikki Haley. It is a kiss of death for Nikki Haley, to say, sponsored by Liz Cheney. I think push came to shove, she might. But she also didn't give an answer on abortion, right? She told us a lot of stories about the importance of the baby, about women, men making legislation. She's a good politician. Just like nothing, a nothing burger of an answer. But do you think the people—I kept thinking—

But going into that, I was interested in, we heard from a Steadherndon, people are not that enthusiastic about voting for Biden. We think people are going to be excited about Liz Cheney? I don't know. I don't think she's going to run. I think she's just trying to put stuff out there to get people moving. That's what people tend to do. And she is a very thin lane of people. And it's not, and they would vote for others. She's not the number one choice for anybody. She might have been in a different timeline, but not this timeline. Yeah, I think with everything that's played out, she's just...

powerful person without a party. Yeah. Oh, we'll see. We'll keep our eyes peeled on Nikki Haley, who Jack Schaefer called. He wrote about her that the Nikki Haley boomlet is an example of, or is evidence of a bored press corps. Yeah, I think so too. You think so too? No legs? I don't know, maybe.

Maybe. She certainly has a lane. She's in the best position if Trump falls and breaks a hip. I don't know. And I mean legally or personally. By the way, if she were to be made vice president, one thing I really appreciate about Nikki Haley is her ambition and her ability to execute that ambition over time, as I think we've seen in her political career. But if she becomes vice president and Trump goes to prison in

She ain't going to be fast to get him out. I don't know. She's happy in that seat. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. This interview with Liz Cheney is part of a kind of series of conversations we're having over this week and next, which unpack the current state of the GOP. Obviously, we spoke to Mike Gallagher on our podcast on Monday. If you haven't heard that, you should go back and listen to it. Terrific interview. Really interesting. Possible future presidential candidate over there. And then next week, we have a conversation with former Secretary of Defense under Trump,

Mark Esper, where he also rings alarm bells on this. And then as well as Tim Alberta, who has just written a great book about the power of the evangelical church and the religious right. It's called The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory. Big stuff ahead. Lots of GOP coverage. Yeah, it's important. I think it's really important as we move into the primary season. We'll have a lot more politics next year, probably more than some like, but this is the year of politics, 2024.

And AI. So you'll have a lot of AI and a lot of politics. Well, hopefully not too much mixing of the two. We don't want that. An AI president? Maybe. Want to read us out? Yep. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Christian Castro Rossell, Kateri Yochum, Megan Cunane, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Mary Mathis. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you are not an impressionable child. If not, go clean the ketchup off the wall. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.