Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel: Friendship — My Reliable Gift 58:34

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Hi guys, today we have an episode of Where Should We Begin from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Take a listen each Monday as iconic psychotherapist Esther Perel talks to real people and helps them find insights in the raw, intimate details of their lives.

In this episode, Esther talks to two best friends who feel like brothers but have drifted apart and gives them the space and guidance to voice the unspoken issues they've accumulated over two decades of friendship. In the meantime, if you haven't gotten a chance to hear our episode from Monday, August 7th on grief in the workplace, we did it with Esther. Please go back and take a listen. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel.

Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. It's one of those things where it's like, oh yeah, you know, we both say like we're best friends, but like, are we? Do you have a best friend? And what does best friend mean to you?

And is your best friend your oldest friend? Or is your best friend the one with whom you share the most today? Who hasn't had to ask themselves, "If someone is my friend, what does that friendship mean? Has that friendship outlived itself?" Neither of us had really been prioritizing the friendship anymore. I think in the same way that maybe we had when we were younger,

So we met in preschool. I think a lot of personalities, a lot of our experiences, a lot of who we are is very intertwined at a pretty subconscious level. So much of our identities and our ego is actually weirdly intertwined and wrapped up with like seeing the other, appraising the other in some way. Friendship is the most free choice relationship.

It's a relationship that is mutual, reciprocal, and it's very difficult to be the friend of someone for whom we are not the friend. So it has something that demands equity.

There's just tensions that exist between us two and we're both kind of strong personalities and there's a little bit of competitive spirit that comes from that. I mean, it really is like a brotherly relationship in that way. There's just been kind of drifting apart. For so long, I've always thought of him as my best friend. I think only maybe in the past year or two, I've really started to question that.

Everybody has questioned their friendships at some point in their lives. And I wanted to explore that unique relationship called my best friend. I think that one of the essential questions I understood that you have between both of you is, do we share a passion or how has this passion now become more of a competition? What is that friction?

that we both experienced. So there is no major divergent narrative here. It's not like you think our story is one thing and you think that the story is something else. Yeah. So part of us being here is the conversations you haven't had. Right. The conversations you have in your head and the ones that may emerge that you have no idea about. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, wow. And we have time. Yeah, yeah, wow. Yeah, I think there's a lot of stuff we've sort of scratched the surface a little bit to go deeper, but we haven't really gone deep enough. We haven't really spent time in the deep end. Nope. And a part of it is because we're now in different cities, I think, and we used to spend so much time together where it was easy to...

really understand and intuitively know where the other person was at and we were going through life together. Can you share a little bit about the history? Yeah, definitely. So we went to preschool together, which is where we met and our families met. And from what they say and from our memories back then, we were best friends in preschool. And then we actually didn't see each other for about a decade. Fate sort of brought us back together. We

We're working in the same place. I recognized his face. I remember being like, oh, that guy looks familiar. The families knew each other too? Yeah, it was kind of crazy. So his dad ran a restaurant in the community. It was like the only Indian restaurant. And my parents made the website for it. And so we would go to the restaurant all the time. It was my favorite restaurant growing up. And...

Our parents would just sort of like chat about each other, just checking in, you know, how's he doing? How am I doing? I actually think in this style of South Asian parenting and talking about kids is like a pretty competitive style of communication. For sure. Oh, he's been doing this. What are you doing in sports? What are you doing in academics? There was like all these different... They don't just tell stories, they brag. There's always a little bit of bragging involved. Yeah, for sure.

Their parents would compare notes and tell each other what each child is doing, and they would report that to their kids so that when 10 years later they met again, they kind of were updated. Then they met for a few years. They were in different schools, but very tight. And then they parted again during college years. And they have had a kind of an accordion.

Relationship where they go in and out of each other's life physically while always remaining deeply connected emotionally.

Yeah, I mean, when we met again, I had never come across anybody in my life until that point that I felt more similar to. We grew up in a pretty small town where most people, it's sort of simple-minded, simple life with goals and what they're trying to do, what gave them joy. How did your parents get there, to that small town? Yeah, I mean, it's not a tiny town, but it's definitely a, you know, smaller neighborhood. Like when you say we share, do you include backgrounds?

Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, you know, South Asian immigrant parents. From? My parents are from India. His parents are from Bangladesh. My parents came to America and, you know, they were placed in a really rural town in Alabama by a visa sponsorship organization. That's where I was born. That's where my sister was born. And then when I was about three or four years

They moved to Atlanta to work at Home Depot. Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the differentiators that I always carried as well, is that my family came through a less traditional route. My dad actually came to the States undocumented, to New York actually, and he had a sibling who legally lived in Atlanta. And so she was like, oh, come here. There's a lot of trees. It's like Bangladesh.

And so he came to Atlanta with really just like $500 in his pocket. He just worked really hard, you know, got married, then decided to open that restaurant. And that's kind of how we began. Your mom is also Bangladesh? Yes. And my mom also no schooling beyond...

high school level. So my parents are just a bit more like traditional and also didn't come from like an educated path. And so that was, I think, like a differentiator as well. And I felt that also as well. A differentiator between the two of you, you mean? Yeah, definitely. Because for so long growing up, there was so much like anxiety around their lack of education. And

And like they've carried that insecurity themselves pretty deeply, but wanted to like level up in terms of socioeconomic class. And so like strivers in that sense. And so I think that even made them actually nervous to ever develop a relationship much deeper with his parents. And I actually remember talking to my parents about that being like, oh, you know, we could all hang out and, you know,

I remember my mom was like, oh, you know, like they don't want to hang out with us. Like we didn't, we don't have any schooling or anything like that. So that's crazy to hear. Did you know that? I did not know that. Yeah. So, but I think one of the similar things is we were one of the few South Asian families in our town. So regardless of the different directions that we came, that was the common linkage there for sure. And growing up, there was no other person that I met who was

I also...

Oh yeah, big time in that town. I used to, you know, I remember when Osama bin Laden was killed, people were like, oh, yo, sorry to hear about your uncle. Like really intense Islamophobia growing up. And I think that is also something that I envied, you know, it would just make me wonder. Do you know all that?

Yeah, this is all, I mean, yeah, no, not really. I mean, some stuff I was obviously aware of, just knowing that he's Muslim and... And my family. It's not that he is. It's what that experience... Yeah, means to... I really wish we... And then he says a little, and you know that it is. It means a lot. I try to downplay, but... Don't. Okay. Or at least not here. Okay, okay. I think it makes me... Here is okay. We will take it as it was.

Not as you've tried to make it. It was shitty. It was definitely shitty. And so I think it's easier for me to downplay it so that I can relate on a level to like, you know, best friend. And so... But you just told your best friend some nuances of your experience. Yeah. I guess I never really put those pieces together. Let's hear how...

Yeah, I mean, I think there was nothing in your story that I didn't know. Right. But in terms of how that story made you feel different from me and the amount that it made you feel different from me is, yeah, it makes me sad for a couple reasons, obviously, because...

I honestly feel like this would have been really great to have talked about earlier on the difference there because honestly, I think the gap that you feel for me is not the same gap that I grew up feeling with you. My context is relative to the people around me. Mm-hmm.

much more of a gap than my gap with you to the extent where even knowing all these differences with you, it never felt like there was a difference. Obviously, there is. You feel it. That's your experience. But my parents, sure, definitely the biggest difference is the education. But

they had a really rough time in this country. Like, really, really rough time. My dad was here by himself for seven years after getting engaged for a week, you know, and had to, like, work in a factory for most of that time. And, like, even though I went to, like, a Catholic school, like, my parents went in serious debt for that. Did not grow up, you know, super well off at all. And, like, felt like...

Like, you know, I mean, I got Islamophobia too. Yeah. Even though I'm not. I mean, I'm just the only person. I was in an all-white space in school my entire life, which was, like, a space where I envied you. Like, you got to grow up with diversity. Yeah. And, like, I always wished I went to public school because of that and, like, did not enjoy going to a school where I didn't have that kind of experience. Yeah. And...

Or even like enough experience to feel comfortable being around other South Asian people or just not getting to do that. And my parents never were able to deeply connect with people who weren't from the same exact community as them. And all of those were things that I felt like, yes, our experiences are different, but they're both so much more different than everybody else's here that we connect really like deeply because of that. Yeah. So I guess it just makes me sad that you've like,

gone so much of your life feeling like there was that much of a gap and not sharing that because I would have loved to have like stepped in more there or yeah I would say I mean I think I carried that gap earlier in our friendship

From the moment they met, they shared a ton together. But here, as they walked in, stuff was pouring out of them, of the ways that they had each observed the other, the other's family, with things that they had actually never said out loud. And also pieces of their own experience, particularly more painful aspects. And it reminded me

When my childhood friends meet my adult friends, the adult friends always want to know how was she when she was little. And what's so amazing is the way that we take each other in at six, what we perceive, how we understood the family. It's amazing that the little details that we stay with of how we internalize someone when we were young. Like maybe like when we were living in the same town together,

It started to fade more as I think we like went to like college in different cities. I remember when I actually learned about your family's financial anxieties because I actually I didn't know. I thought y'all were like pretty like well off. I didn't actually know that like there was all of this under underneath because on the surface. Yeah, definitely. You see one thing and then that detail definitely helped that. Yeah.

I mean, my family definitely tried to present. Like, my parents definitely tried to present differently than when I was there. And, like, we just don't talk about that stuff. Like, I didn't grow up. We didn't talk about anything. So I didn't know. But it was clear. My family, you know, we just didn't talk about money and we didn't do things. We never really did anything extravagantly. My parents would just save up all their money just to go to India every few years. Yeah.

I mean, that's the reason I've been doing my own thing, you know? Like, I didn't want to be a burden financially to my parents. I've been paying for everything in my life since I was, like, 16. Specifically so that I don't have to, you know, add to that burden. Specifically so that I can try to help them. Yeah. And, like, give back for their sacrifice, you know? Which I know you talk about and you feel as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You both help your families? Yeah. Like...

He definitely does more so. Yeah, like regular payments to them. One of the things that I really admire is he, I don't know,

I don't know if this is... Yeah, you can... Okay, cool. Like, you know, launched his own company. And it's something that I really want to do. I don't have a safety net. Like, as soon as I stop making money, that's an income source that's lost to the family. And they can't support me doing this. And so, like, I always really admired... And Envious, too. I think, like, Envious, too. Yeah. I mean, I think that's accurate. Like, I don't want to make it seem like we come from the exact same background. Yeah. Like...

I think there's obviously a difference there and one that I absolutely recognize. And I think part of the reason I didn't share it all is because I didn't feel like it was my space to share because you had more that you were dealing with, so I didn't want to take away from that. That's tough. Some of the things that you don't address, your intention is to protect the other. Yeah.

I mean, that's where the lack of... Finish the sentence. Yeah, I mean...

You know, as much as I felt like we were in this together, this is someone I can relate to, someone who shares all these things that I feel. Yeah. You've just always been so authentic, so open in ways that I've always been very self-protective. You know, I never talk about anything that's like a point of stress. Like growing up, I didn't. And you were the first person I felt like, okay, I still don't really need to talk about it, but I at least feel very comfortable here. But I also... When he talks...

Like an open book? Yeah. What's it like for you? Total just admiration. How can someone be like this? How can someone go through this world that I feel like I'm also going through and be so comfortable sharing about themselves?

It's been, I think, the part that has been both I want to emulate and that I've been, if we're talking about jealousy, envy, or like, you know, that's something that I absolutely don't feel like I have. And it's

part of the reason why you cultivate such deep relationships so quickly. And I just don't let myself really get there. And I don't know if I'm capable to do it super well. So yeah, so I felt like we were in this together, but also I did feel like there was more tension in your life, like pulling at you, holding you back, guiding the way that you had to make decisions. Whereas I did still feel like I could sort of choose my own path here. When they talk about being

One among a few South Asian families in the South, they emphasize the similarities. But when they start to peel the layers of the differences between them and the nuances of their backgrounds and their respective family cultures, the differences become much more manifest. What they admire, what they envy, what they compete about, what they hid, what they long for, and what they share.

Say more. Well, I mean, your family was asking of you things directly, whereas my parents never talked about things. They were under duress all the time, but they never shared anything. And as a result, they never asked me directly to do anything in a way that his family was always asking him to like help here, do this. What do you think makes for that difference?

I do think there's a level of financial security, I'm sure, to some degree, but also culture. In what sense? In our family's culture, there's just not really like an asking for help ever. Asking for help from the children?

Or period, meaning the parents take care of the kids and the kids are meant to be kids versus the parents and the kids are part of one system and everybody has responsibilities and everybody takes care of everyone. Hmm.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's... Is that what we're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. That's very, very heavy. As even you were talking about the asks, I was just feeling the burdens on my body of just like, oh God, all of the things that I'm being asked. Meaning in a certain kind of a Western sense of the word, you were defined as a child. Yes. And you were defined as a little adult. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's a big deal. Because my parents were always wanting to protect my sister and I from having to deal with this world. That's right. And they would do everything behind closed doors. They would do everything without us knowing, no matter what that took. And you associate that to your parents, to their particular culture, to their being Catholic Indians, to which part of it or to whatever. Yeah.

I think to our family culture, they're both older siblings. We have huge family. They're both the oldest of like 40 plus first cousins. And in growing up in India... They were in his role. They were in his role. And they wanted to make sure that their kids didn't have to... Oh my God. Interesting. Yeah. So you, in a way, grew up...

with the notion that I'm going to be so independent that I don't have to ask them for anything. Yeah. And you grew up with the notion that I'm going to make it so that I can give them everything they need. That is the dream. Yeah.

My heart goes out to both of you. Because both are very, very caring, thoughtful stances of which some of it was articulated early on and some of it you intuitively understood and are now putting words to. Yeah. Yeah. I think we both really related on the care for our families. Like deep, deep feeling that there was things that we needed to alleviate. But I think that breakdown...

makes it a clearer distinction of like the different ways that we internalize and approach this. Like I think growing up, like your parents found a lot of meaning and joy in seeing you like have fun. Whereas my parents wanted me to have happiness and joy, but it was so rooted in like this family web. I will say that

It hasn't been a light, easy path with my parents at all. Like, going through that, I had to – I split from my parents, you know? Like, I had a ton of – for a full year and a half, like, just didn't talk to my mom. In order to? In order to start from scratch, do my own thing, carve my own path, and not feel bound to a world that I didn't choose. So it's a kind of a tension between –

my loyalty to my family and my pursuit of my individual achievements, a la America? Absolutely. It was an East meets West conflict. It's very powerful what you're saying, right? You're kind of dividing this a little bit in a dualistic way, right? The interdependence versus the self-reliance. If I wanted to be able to finally pursue self,

And not only did I have to not talk about anything, which was your first degree, but the next degree was I had to cut off for a bit in order to not hear them inside of me, which of course doesn't really work this way. And so the idea, you know, you pay a price. You pay a price of the disconnect inside. You get to achieve, but you also get to numb yourself and to cut off parts of you. You don't just cut off your parents. Right.

And you end up feeling at some point I have to accept my rhythm. It won't go in the same speed. Because I can never think what do I want separately from how does it affect them. It's a different way of placing the self. And you're 20 what? Five? Both of you? So it's a, you know, this is also developmental. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, and that was when I was 16. Yeah.

That you didn't speak. You know, looking back, it's the experience that I have the most guilt around, without a doubt. Because, I mean, there was a fracture in my relationship with them. And there's been healing. But I still feel that tension unless I can do something that is just so much greater than they would have expected me or that I would have been able to. What's your fantasy?

It's to be able to just, you know, pay off all their debts and like, you know, let them travel, let them relax. Because that would justify why you had to do what you had to do. Exactly. But they may be wiser than you on that. Yeah. Maybe they actually, if you even could explain that to them. Yeah. That in itself. Yeah. I think I'm just afraid. And what would happen? I know that that's not part of the friendship. Yeah. But...

I also think he could be extraordinarily helpful to you on that. Yeah, yeah. It's like you are the person he looks at when he wants to think about pursuing himself. You look to him when you are looking at how to maintain connection. And these two go hand in hand, actually. They don't exist without each other. I bet.

that this way that you think of attachment to your parents and like the way that it relates to your own self-growth, I'm sure it manifests in our relationship as well as like very close friends because... Bang. Yeah. How? I was waiting for that. Yeah, I mean like...

I feel like sometimes in our friendship, and I hear you make the effort sometimes, but I think sometimes I worry that the growth is more important than the relationship. Growth, you mean the achievement? Yeah. Accomplishments? Yeah. Success? Like your journey that you're on. And because I also look up to you and I admire you,

Like, I've tried to live that way too. And it's just caused me insane distress. Like, I've tried to push my family. And it's just so hard. Like, it's really hard for me. And that's why I've had to accept, like, that it's just not also me. I actually don't really know about this period of a year-long fracture from your –

your mother, but I also cannot even imagine it. Like I, I, I cannot, I, it's beyond conception for me. How does that resonate for you? The, you are more interested in your pursuits and your self-development and your achievements than in the importance of your relationships, which includes him. Yeah. I've heard it from every partner I've ever had as well. Yeah.

So I think it's, there's probably something to it. I've always been someone who's had very specific kind of change in mind that's taken precedence over the people in my life or even my own joy. I don't really do things for joy often. And I've just been very reactive in my relationships in general. Yeah.

We just worked, you know, like we, there's so much overlap. There's so much connection. We have such a similar sense of adventure and curiosity that when we were in the same space, especially early on when there weren't other people in our lives like that,

there was an explosion. And there was no proactive, let's do this, let's work on this, let's build this. And now I don't think I've actively prioritized it. And I really do want to be more intentional about it, but I haven't been. Does he make sure that you stay in touch? Yeah.

He's the one who reaches out? I think we both do every once in a while. I think it's changed recently. I've pulled back in the past couple years. Because what? Finish your thought. Because I mean, I was just like, is it really about like our best friendship or like are you trying to meet other, like I was sometimes feeling like, was it just like the adventures and the like growth that you experienced in our relationship or was it actually like, you know, us being best friends? Because I felt like there were periods of time where I was like,

If he just meets another person who will offer him more growth opportunities in terms of self and career, you will be more in tuned and interested in that as opposed to our friendship. Dang. Yeah, I mean, you'll always be my best friend. There's never going to be a connection. But is there truth to this?

I mean, I can understand where that's coming from. And I absolutely think my behavior and where my mind was leading me in places, that's super fair. And I'm sorry. I appreciate the apology. But I pulled back intentionally. You know, a relationship is like a rubber band, you know? I didn't want it to get to a point where it ever snaps. It was like I needed to...

create some of that breathing room for us to like recognize that there was tension emerging. So I always have faith. Can I also say, I mean, you know, I can see where you're coming from. I also did feel something similar towards you because you're a super dynamic person. You make friends super easily and you're always doing different things. And when we went off to college, you know, I knew you were making really deep friendships with people. Yeah.

And I wasn't. I mean, I was very much like, I wasn't trying to, but was making a lot of different connections and acquaintances and people who I'd know, but wasn't making deep friendships. And that probably scared me. I mean, it did scare me. But I don't think we really spent enough time validating what we meant to each other and what we wanted to mean to each other at the time. Yeah, I think that was the nature of...

Growing up in Georgia, we were these two male best friends. It was just so homophobic in that area that, like, even just saying things like... Talking about how much the relationship meant to one another was just, like, taboo, you know? Too intimate? Yeah, too intimate. We never... And I think... So what that happened for me going to college was... I was like, yo, like... I mean, I was like, you know, he's probably, like...

Basically, I think I may have been throwing myself and trying to connect with so many people. Yeah, because I thought you...

I didn't think I was important as a best friend to you and so I was throwing myself into that because I didn't feel secure enough in our friendship to just trust that that was always there. But I will say that for many years in college, I avoided calling anyone a best friend because my best friend is you.

It would have been like a betrayal? Yeah, it would have felt like a betrayal. And then honestly, I think growing up, it was a lot of me trying to keep the relationship going and the friendship going. But I was like, oh, what if I'm stifling your growth? And that made me insecure. And maybe I was like, I think there was one thing that... Hold on, hold on. Yeah. Take a breath. Yeah, yeah. A lot coming out. Yeah. Just take a moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember... Hold on. In the course of the session, every time they would start speaking truth, they'd start talking faster and faster and getting more and more revved up. And the anxiety that accompanied the revelations was such that I had to continuously temper, create rhythm, slow down, breathe, listen, and integrate.

and every time they'd start to speed up again, as if they wanted to protect each other so much that they wouldn't say things that would hurt the other or annoy the other, and it just was pouring out. And then again, slow down, breathe, and integrate. Sometimes it's about what needs to be said, and then after that, it's about sitting quietly with what has just been said.

Part of what you're saying is we felt very, very close, but we've never told each other how close we feel. But I knew that I couldn't call somebody else my best friend because it would be disloyal to you. That's super powerful. Yeah, wow. Some real shit. Yeah. Sounds like we let a bunch of our own insecurities about our relationship get in the way. I remember, I mean, so many occasions where...

you would tell me something really important in your life. And then you would follow it up with

talking about how other people that you've shared this with have responded in different ways. And maybe that was you trying to protect yourself. For sure. But to me, that was, oh, he doesn't really need this relationship that much. Like, I feel like it's little things like that. Yeah. And I was quiet, you know, I wasn't sharing that, obviously. Yeah.

So I tell you about my other friends so that you don't think that I am putting all my weight on you and that I'm too needy. And then I hear you tell me about the other friends. And so then I think I'm not that important after all. Yeah.

And so each of you who are so important to each other leave these conversations thinking you're not that important after all. How ironic. Yeah, that is true. He just expressed the core of the conflict and I didn't want them to just ride over it. In fact, he applied because he was feeling more and more

that he was the best friend of the past. That the pursuit of self-development and growth and achievement and success was such that he was in search of another best friend, the one that would accompany him into the next phase. And since he had chosen relationships over self, he was moving at a different pace.

and that would become the fracture in their relationship. And they needed to just sit with that for a moment. This is a dilemma that actually transcends their origins, their immigrant backgrounds. This is a piece in every friendship, where is your individual pursuit more important than our bond? And if I start to feel that our bond is secondary to you, then I'm going to retreat.

Do you share your love lives with each other? Do you talk about that? Yeah. I think so, yeah. That was another area where I think early on was a big difference between us because I didn't really have a love life for a while because of a lot of insecurities I had. What stood in the way for you when you say insecurities?

Well, so this is one of the factors that led to my breaking point with my parents. When I was in middle school, you know, I was asked on a date and I really wanted to go and finally worked up the courage to tell my mom and she completely shut me down.

And it was like a traumatic experience for me at the time, because especially I'd been thinking about this for days and days and days before finally figuring out the words, testing it out, finally sharing it. First time, really, I felt like I was sharing something that was off path from what they wanted of me. And that was a tension I carried with me for so long. And I always wondered, you know, how can I do something that my parents would be so not supportive of? Um,

So it took me until I got to college and that I really was in a serious relationship for the first time. And you were, you did boys, girls, them? Yeah.

Yeah, I dated a woman during college. We ended up dating for about a year. And it was actually crazy when we finally started sharing. We were going through a lot of similar things and really crazy similarities in our relationships. We both started dating like our first serious partners around the same time, actually. There came a period when we both realized we wanted to end dating.

our like romantic partnerships with our partners around the same time as well. And

He was like, it's really hard. She's having a hard time. But like, I know it's not right for me. This is where my growth is headed. I'm going to move in this direction. Whereas when I did it and I saw just the grief, just like the challenge and also like how I felt. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I really love you. Like, you're a really important person in my life. Like, what am I doing here? So there was a lot of like thinking. And I was really like looking at your example the whole time. Why do you put them...

As opposed to each other, your personal growth and your relationships, don't they go hand in hand? We used to have a lot of conversations about this. Are romantic relationships actually a tether towards ultimate growth and achievement? And I believe that. That they are? Yeah.

I think at that, I was under a lot of tension. I didn't know, I was like looking up to you and I wanted to be like you and I knew that like,

But it actually has been a bane for him. Yeah. And the way I ended that relationship was awful. Yeah, yeah. And I wish I didn't do it that way. I've learned a lot since then. Me too. I didn't really know... Hold on a sec. Yes. This is New York City. Yes, yeah. It's a metaphor for the emergency crisis I was in at the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, meaning, you know, I just didn't know how to communicate and really have a conversation about it. It was really kind of came out of nowhere. And why did you want to end things? For that same split that he's talking about? I felt like there was more of my energy consistently that was going towards the relationship than I wanted.

Do you never think that the relationship can give you energy that you can then use for your career pursuits? That it actually is an emboldening thing rather than a suck? It's a really good point. I mean, it's something that I need to open myself up more to that idea.

There's a part of you that sees relationships, and that's what you describe with your parents, as restrictive. Yeah. You don't see them as generative. Yeah. It's like me versus. Yeah. And the relationship takes from me rather than the relationship offers me, opens me, energizes me. You name it. It's not a jail. Biggest tension I feel with allowing myself to go there is this fear that

this person's goals, this person's energies, this person's desires, and what ours will be together will shift me away from some goals that I have that I care really deeply about. Because I made that split so early, I feel like I can do things on my own, and I just feel like things will deviate me from the path.

And I think like a lot of my emotional structures are probably deeply rooted with feeling very profound connections with people like you and my sister. But he also ends up feeling like he becomes a deviation from your path. Yeah. Well, it's weird because the reason I feel like, I think my...

I feel comfortable doing things on my own just because I know I have such profound connections with people like him. As long as he makes sure that the connection is preserved. But if he steps back like he did in the last two years, do you notice it? I definitely have, yeah. After how long? No, throughout. I definitely have recognized it. But I do sense. I think it's more than just...

Say more about the growing apart? Give me an example.

Like, yeah, I just went on this trip here and like, I just met these friends and here's an experience I just went on that is maybe something we would have done together back in the day. And it almost feels like a, like a jab. Like here's something that I am capable of doing this without you. Like each one jabs the other with statements that say, look how great my life is without you. Something like that. Yeah. But I think in terms of relationships, I still am, I see, I don't, I do see this as like an additive relationship to me.

Best friends is not what can you do for me. It's not organized around interest, ROI. It's a different level. And if you start to feel like we're each showing the other, hey, cool without you, and you start to do it as a way also of saying, I don't really miss you. Go ahead. Yeah, I think that's just spot. Like, I was definitely...

And I think it's coming back to not knowing where the others stood because you were doing some amazing things over the years. And like I said, I've looked up to you for so long.

for a while I didn't know where I would necessarily, I didn't know like yeah whether I needed, I had any value in that chain and I think there was a period where there was definitely the jabs where it was like oh I actually don't need you either you know what I'm cool and I was hoping that like me doing that would elicit some sort of reaction of oh whoa whoa whoa like what about us and I think Do you travel together? Have you?

Have we? I don't think so. Oh, my God. Yeah, never mind. Yeah, never mind. Yeah, I mean, we've like... Yes, yes. Internal journeys, you've done many. Yeah, we'd never really been so intentional about like, you know, carving out that time for each other because we had been so accustomed to like being like, oh, you know, our friendship is so strong. We don't need to like intentionally maintain it. Like it's just a natural thing. You know, there's no...

There's no work or effort that needs to be put into it. You know, it's really not the case. Not at all. It's crazy because, I mean, he's just someone who, you're just someone who, we were talking about this earlier, but you are really open and sharing with everybody that it's always been hard for me to know, like, is there anything that's just preserved for me?

That's where a lot for me is like, oh, you're going to be good. You're going to create support systems everywhere you go. Whereas in my world, it wasn't that at all. You know, I internalize more things. So yeah, so it's just interesting how that kind of adds to this too. Well, you're my favorite person to like take on the world with.

I realize and recognize it now. When I said I want us to be lifelong friends, just because I want you to be in my life, not checking in here and there, but be best friends. And I know for myself that I need to stop thinking about the amount of value I need to provide or create in order to

feel like you can justify this friendship. And I know that that's also a personal journey that you're trying to understand more around. But like, that was how I was feeling for some time. I mean, I love you, man. I love you too, man. It's just like, I want you to know how much like you really do...

mean to me too because you're not just like my favorite like friend. You're the single like best human being I've ever met. You really are. I really think you're just like an incredible person. So like there's no I don't like the notion of

I've never thought about this as a value exchange. If anything, I've thought about the same exact thing. As someone who is so, I think of friendship and relationship being so grounded in sharing. And as someone who is so willing to share and comfortable sharing, do I offer anything uniquely here? Can I ask you something? Yeah. I could ask so many different things. I'm just curious in the moment, what do you think has made it so that you've never said any of these things to each other?

being freaking men. Yeah. I think like I feel the resistance of just like our like upbringings and just being like Yeah. Upbringings or men or men in your upbringing? Men in our specific upbringing. I mean I don't think that

Yeah. Other men necessarily would have an easier time. Yeah. Two straight guys. Yeah. Who can admit to the love that they feel for each other. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah. Probably. So what is the taboo when you say we're men? Cisgendered straight guys. I mean, we're men. So what? What do we and what don't we? Yeah. I think we don't necessarily share our feelings about each other openly. Yeah.

I can do what I need to do. You know, I'm powerful. I don't need anybody else. I don't have vulnerabilities. That aspect. This belief in true independence as well. I don't think we've ever talked about actually like needing one another. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we even mentioned it in this conversation as well either. No, you were talking about how you were trying to make clear to the other that you don't need them. Exactly. What are the other taboos?

I mean, there is like a, there is a power element to it as well. I don't want to feel ever like less in power in relation to you, I think, because it would create some sort of like submissive or needy. I think I've,

we've used that word a couple times here. - Every time you talk about not wanting to be needy, you cross your arms. - Oh yeah. - I've never felt I have more power or like I'm more powerful or anything like that. I don't want to.

I think there's actually, when you say that, I think there's actually a part of me that values achievement and growth and impact more so than the relational component. And I wonder if he's actually right. Like, this is how you must be in order to achieve. You know, my friend and colleague, Terry Real, he says, under patriarchy, men can either feel powerful or connected. Mm-hmm.

But they can't necessarily have both at the same time. That is exactly how I feel. And I feel like I'm on the flip side, you know, wanting the exact, it's like yin and yang a little bit. Cultural systems change. You, more than anybody, know this. You represent cultures in transition inside of you. So can you do it vis-a-vis yourself?

these norms, these supposed contradictions of either or, either powerful or connected. Yeah. And so now it becomes the powerful and the connected. He's the powerful, you're the connected. Right. Which is a wild, yeah. And you grapple with the part of you that wants what you call achievement, power, but it comes at the price of disconnect.

Which is what you've emphasized. It's efficient. I've succeeded. I don't need anybody. Let me give you the list of everything I can do for which I don't need other people. But he then becomes the part of you that is disavowed. Yeah. And part of the distance that I think has been created between the two of you is because each one has become a representation of the part of you that you struggle with. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

That's very real. Do your fathers have best friends? My father's best friend broke his heart. That is the story. They were business partners and then my father who is much more of a he is a prominent community organizer and has helped hundreds of Bangladeshi migrants come to the States and

And basically, my dad tells me this story. He's like, we were best friends in the village growing up from preschool. He married his sister. Like, my father's best friend married his sister, his favorite sister. And they were in business together. And basically, his friend was more driven and just cut him off in the business. And my father told me then, friends are only this. It's family that's the most important.

Your friends are great, but you never know when they might stab you. And I think that's what creates this protective response in me because my father is incredibly protective and carries a lot of sorrow from relationships that he feels like he overinvested in and then people didn't reciprocate in return because he's so protective.

community organizing and he feels like he did not achieve his dreams because he spent so much time trying to help and connect with others. - Thinking of others. - Yep. - Wow. - Yeah. - But of course I can't not think that the same dance is happening right here, right? - Mm. - How often do you see each other? - It's been a long time. - Nowadays? - Now. - Like a couple times a year maybe. - Yeah. - So what some people do is to have rituals. Every two months,

We take a weekend of what other kind of things you enjoy doing when you're... - So many things. - Everything. - Give me a few. - Yeah. We could go to some basketball games together. We could go hiking together, I'm sure. Film something together one day would be really cool. Like trying to make a small movie. - Yeah. - When we're both... So why don't you say we have a ritual. We meet every eight weeks.

Let's do it, man. Yeah, be down for that. I mean, we're so close now. You know, we spend a weekend together or a long weekend together, one time here, one time at my place, one time to something else. And have it be the ritual you never broke. Yeah. So that even when you have families one day, if you do, or partners, you just say this, and it may not be two months at that time, but there is a pillar here.

There's a thing. And then one day you'll say for the past 30 years. Wow. Every X. Yeah. That thing is an immovable. Yeah. It's an ode to us. Wow.

I think it would be nice for each of us to make a commitment like that to each other. For sure. Yeah. This doesn't scare me at all. This is exciting. Let's do it. Let's do it. That, on the meta level, it's exciting that I'm even experiencing something like that. So this is not a long-term commitment. This is a reliable gift. A reliable gift. A reliable gift. I like that. Friendship, my reliable gift.

Something happened in their friendship that expressed an internal conflict that became a relational conflict so that each of them became the representation of the part that the other one was struggling with and felt ambivalent about. One struggled with the side of him that wanted to maintain connections at the price of experiencing a compromise of the self.

And the other experienced the price of maintaining his pursuits and his focus on his own individual compass at the price of losing his connection to people that mattered to him. And they were each hurt by that. Am I not important enough for you when you keep climbing and doing your own individual stuff? Said one.

And the other, am I not important to you when you have so many other important people in your life? And they were hurt and they felt neglected by the other and they needed to reconnect. And now let's see if they will actually take on some of these rituals. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.